a16z GP Jeff Jordan: The Ultimate Guide to Two-Sided Marketplaces | 20VC #966

1. 0:00 – 3:56

   Who is Jeff Jordan?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:00

      Jeff, I am so excited for this. I've loved much of your writing before, so thank you so much for joining me today.

   2. JJJeff Jordan0:06

      Oh, my pleasure. Thanks for having me.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings0:08

      Not at all. But I wanna dive straight in, and a little bit on you. So, how did you make your way into the world of startups? And then, how did you make your way most recently to be a GP at Andreessen?

   4. JJJeff Jordan0:17

      The world of startups was, you know, quasi-accidental. I was working at Disney and, um, you know, it was a great, uh, time to be at Disney. I ... Frank, uh, Wells and Michael Eisner were there. The company was doing great. But, um, then the internet came along and was t- you know, just it's like y- y- you had to get into it. So, I, I jumped outta Disney, uh, in, I was CFO at the Disney stores, became CFO of a, uh, publicly traded retail company called Hollywood Entertainment that had just bought Real.com, the super store for DVDs and, uh, VHS tapes to, uh, with the, uh, idea of doing video on demand. It was a great idea. It was about two decades too soon. And Net- Netflix ended up d- doing it after. But, um, that, that got me into tech, and then, uh, I just f- found I loved it and I stayed.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings1:02

      I wanna ask, you know, you have the most incredible operating career, as we touched on there. How do you think your operating career positively impacted how you think as an investor today?

   6. JJJeff Jordan1:12

      Well, y- you know, when, um, the, the big d- uh, big job upgrade for me was, uh, when I g- I went to eBay and got to manage eBay.com. Um, Meg Whitman was my hiring manager at Disney way back in the day, and, and was looking for talent. And all the talent during the ... as the bubble grew w- you know, w- w- all the talent in Silicon Valley was grabbed up, so she went and found me and brought me into Silicon Valley. And so I think, um, doing eBay early, uh, meant there was no playbook. We had to write the playbook. And you get, you g- get to know a, uh, business at such an anatomical, uh, y- you know, uh, way. You're just building it from the ground up and, you know, you're, you're making a ton of mistakes, you're, you're trying to correct them. And getting that level of in- involvement in the network effect business I think gave me a pretty good sense for, okay, this business has the potential to replicate that network effect, this business doesn't. And, and largely as an investor, I'm a kind of a one-trick pony. Everything I would like to talk about as an operator and an investor, uh, i- it typically involves a network effect.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings2:14

      Can I ask, on the flip side, are there struggles or challenges with having had such operational experience and success and now, y- you know, uh, someone said it well to me the other day which is like, "Eyes on, hands off." (laughs)

   8. JJJeff Jordan2:28

      Uh, yes. Uh, that's a very important question for an operator who goes into an investor. Do they want to ... Reid Hoffman once, uh, described it to me, "I, I, I am the, I, I'm in the passenger seat and I don't wanna grab the wheel." You know, the, the entrepreneur has to be steering. And I think that's, that's a pretty good metaphor. I had gotten to the point where I did not want to operate any more tech businesses. I'd, you know, I had scratched that itch after, you know, well over a decade running them. And so now I appreciate this, the, the efforts and commitment of my entrepreneurs, but I'm, I, I'm not tempted to grab that steering wheel.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings3:03

      Can I ask, do you think there's a danger, and I have this danger now advising founders especially on content, where I tell them what has worked for me and it may be very different for them? Do you find that actually playbooks have changed so much, that it makes a lot of operating experience actually irrelevant?

   10. JJJeff Jordan3:20

       Y-

   11. HSHarry Stebbings3:20

       Something I worry about.

   12. JJJeff Jordan3:22

       You know, I, I try, I try never to be prescriptive, "You should do this." I, I try to say, "In my experience, I, I've faced something similar. I tried A, B, and C, and here's what happened." But, you know, just, uh, I don't want the entrepreneur to do what I say, because it then, you know, I'm spending one-twentieth of my time thinking about their business. If, if I picked well, they're, they, they should be, uh, making a decision. I just appreciate being, uh, listened to, you know, and, and, and have that perspective considered. But, uh, I, you know, the last thing I want is an entrepreneur who'll do whatever I say they should do.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings3:55

       You mention

2. 3:56 – 5:56

   How to Give Hard Feedback to a Founder

   1. HSHarry Stebbings3:56

      not being prescriptive there. I think one of the biggest problems with venture state is venture investors, who especially haven't been operators, are too nervous to tell founders the truth, 'cause they don't want a bad MPS, or what I hear, "It's a bad look, Harry." And I'm like, "Fuck it's a bad look. You have a fiduciary duty and you have a responsibility to your team and to the shareholders to say, 'Jeff, this is not working. We need to change.'" And they may not wanna hear it.

   2. JJJeff Jordan4:21

      A- a- and, and I agree with that. And you have a responsibility to your entrepreneur. I- if you think they're, they're, you know, you think there's g- a high probability they're gonna drive the, uh, car over the cliff, you, you, you should, you owe it to them to talk to them about it, you know, about that concern. I may not be right, but, you know, just, you know, "P- please pay attention here. You know, this could unfold." You know, so for me, it's, it's, it's a privilege to have the opportunity to, to ha- discuss the meaningful things with the entrepreneur.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings4:50

      Jeff, how do you d- you know, you've got the operator experience, right? You know, you sat on boards with investors who would give you advice. How would you give advice like that, which is very hard to hear, with empathy, but also with real direction?

   4. JJJeff Jordan5:05

      Exactly, with empathy (laughs) and with real direction.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings5:08

      (laughs)

   6. JJJeff Jordan5:08

      I mean, it's just, it is, um, you know, th- there was a mindset shift I made when I, back when I was an o- operator, to have the, the tough conversations. It is in the other party's interest to have that conversation. If you want them to be successful in the org, uh, you know, you want, you, you owe it to them to have the hard conversations. And when you kinda put that lens on it, it, it, it's like, uh, uh, that, that ... I'm being charitable by empathetically sharing, you know, th- that point of view.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings5:36

      Yeah.

   8. JJJeff Jordan5:36

      And, you know, it makes, it makes the conversation a whole lot easier.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings5:38

      No, I, I totally agree with you, especially in terms of, you know, it being in favor of the entrepreneur. I do wanna move to marketplace. We're gonna break down marketplaces, first with like an overview, and then demand and then supply. I, I have a structure to this show-

   10. JJJeff Jordan5:52

       Okay.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings5:52

       ... which actually is quite a rarity for me. So-

   12. JJJeff Jordan5:54

       (laughs)

   13. HSHarry Stebbings5:54

       ... I listened to you on other

3. 5:56 – 43:23

   Ultimate Guide to Marketplaces

   1. HSHarry Stebbings5:56

      podcasts, and you said that there were two things really that you look for in terms of characteristics that make a great marketplace. Number one was fragmentation of supply side. What did you mean by this? And why is this so important to you?

   2. JJJeff Jordan6:09

      So, I, I had a very f- uh, in- interesting conversation on this with a, uh, with another entrepreneur at one point. I, I always contrasted OpenTable with, um, Fandango. And so, Fandango, you know, they're, they're, what are there? Six or seven major movie chains in the United States. Aggregating that supply was very straightforward. I- i- it's like, "Okay, that's great." The challenge is, if there are only six or seven major suppliers, each of those suppliers has supplier power. So, I remember, I used to go to AMC and one day they weren't in Fandango, so what did I do? I went to amc.com (laughs) and then made the reservation. OpenTable, by contrast, had, you know, the, uh, the target market was 30,000 or 40,000 or 50,000 restaurants, almost all of which were the, uh, had one... Th- the owner-only managed one restaurant, and so it was brutally hard to aggregate. But once you're aggregated, you know, y- y- it's, it's brutally hard to compete with it, and no supplier has supplier power. I think the biggest chain had like 100 units, and so that's it. Wh- when I was telling this to that entrepreneur, he goes, um, uh, "One thing, uh, you might not know about me, I was the founder of Fandango." (laughs) I was like, "Oh, crap." (laughs) "It sounded so good coming out." (laughs)

   3. HSHarry Stebbings7:19

      Do you know what, Jeff, though, I'm picturing being in a room with a VC and I'm the founder, and what I can imagine the VC saying is, "Oh, god, you're gonna have to go one by one and acquire each restaurant? Oh, that's gonna take time. Oh, that's gonna be expensive. Oh, the payback's gonna be und- undetermined. That's a bad model."

   4. JJJeff Jordan7:38

      Yes. Oh, absolutely. OpenTable's pretty interesting 'cause it, um, it was a long slog before it became an overnight success, because aggregating supply did take time. Um, it, it was, it was a classic come for the tool, stay for the network play. And so early on in a city when you're just selling the tool, you know, the productivity-enhanced tool, um, sales can be... Sales were few and far between, and it was a really slow build in each market to get a critical mass of supplies such that the diner would be interested in ma- the convenience. "You, you have a subset of supply, but it's so incredibly convenient that I'll use your service." And once the diner started using the service and, uh, OpenTable could deliver revenue to the restaurant, sales exploded. So, but, but I don't disagree with the, uh, it was a long build. (laughs)

   5. HSHarry Stebbings8:24

      How did you determine a critical mass of supply side within a specific region?

   6. JJJeff Jordan8:28

      Well, the good news is we, we didn't have to, the diner did. You know, they just... It was, you know, th- they would, uh, they would discover the service and if they searched, you know, for Saturday night and there are five restaurants, they're like, "Ugh," yawn. If they search and there's a, you know, interesting assortment of restaurants including some of the ones they know, we typically tried to go to the very best restaurants and work our way down, so if French Laundry is on there, you can't book it but it's on there, um, you know, that, that gave some credibility. And it just, there, there was, there was a tipping point in each market at something like 10% of the target market ro- supply where d- diners finally said, "Okay, this is so much more convenient than calling, uh, restaurants one at a time, getting put on hold, getting voicemail, getting all this and that, so I, I would... I'm gonna forego the complete selection in, in, in lieu of convenience."

   7. HSHarry Stebbings9:16

      This is just random, but I have to ask, how do you think about the paradox of choice? Especially when founders are thinking about supply curation, you know? You can have hundreds of restaurants and then people essentially can't decide. We see a lot today where it's like, "Jeff, this is your deal of the day or restaurant of the day."

   8. JJJeff Jordan9:33

      Yeah, I mean, you, you give tools to be able to, uh, uh, do... You know, one s-... OpenTable's w- you know, it's a high quality problem (laughs) when we had too much supply (laughs) in a market t- that affected decision-making. But then you just provide the tools to let people go, by, you know, by neighborhood, by cuisine, by, you know, past favorites, or, you know, whatever. You help provide decision-making tools such that they can experience, uh, the restaurants they want.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings9:59

      You said it's a nice problem to have. You worked with some of the best marketplace businesses of our generation. What are the biggest reasons that you see founders fail to acquire the fragmented supply side?

   10. JJJeff Jordan10:11

       Um, you know, uh, it was, uh, depth of value prop, I think, probably. I mean, most, um, markets, even successful marketplaces, typically are supply constrained. You know, Airbnb always is looking for new supply, um, to, uh, enhance, uh, the user experience. And so, uh, you know, it, there clearly is a value prop, but if, you know, if the value prop's not robust, it, it can be very hard to, uh, to acquire. Um, my partner Andrew Chen wrote the book, uh, The Cold Start Problem, you know, whi- which is the hard side of the marketplace. Uh, per... uh, uh, there are a number of them where you have to start with supply because if... without supply, you know, the demand is, is uninterested, and so it- it's really important (laughs) to get supply right.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings10:51

       How do you think about introducing kind of artificial marketplaces? And what I mean by that is where you suddenly become Netflix and you start creating supply yourself, or when you are Airbnb and you say, "Hey, Joe, let's use your new startup's inventory and add that to Airbnb's and then we own supply as well." How do you think about when you can own both in that manner?

   12. JJJeff Jordan11:14

       You know, uh, uh, I think it's pretty hard to do that on, you know, on, on two-sided marketplaces just, just 'cause of channel conflict. Take the case of Instacart, you know, they partner with physical grocers to, you know, uh, uh, you know, to give them incremental business, uh, through the digital mechanism. Now, it would be very easy for Instacart to say, "Okay, we, we're going to do, you know, drop a warehouse in each city and do, you know, AB- ABC Grocery." Um, but at that point, you're competing with your customer and, you know, that channel conflict is something that Instacart has no desire to do. They want to be the go-to partner for the, uh, for the grocer, you know, the physical grocer, so it... You get some very interesting choices like that. When Netflix made that choice, it- it- it was, you know, a one-way door. It- it just worked really well.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings12:01

       Uh, i- it's a tough no turning point, uh, as Jeff Bezos says, you know, one way door decision.

   14. JJJeff Jordan12:07

       Yeah.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings12:07

       You mentioned channel there, and that was the other element that you said was a crucial element in your kind of desire to see in marketplace businesses, which is, like, really intelligent lead gen in terms of how they acquire their customers. What do you want to see in how marketplaces acquire their customers first?

   16. JJJeff Jordan12:23

       Yeah, let me contras- I mean contrast, uh, two things. You know, when I got to OpenTable, it was such a good idea I said, "Okay, what other industries can I do this in?" You know, just g- a- and, and owned 100% at the beginning, not ju- not what, you know, the measly CEO, uh, package I got.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings12:38

       (laughs)

   18. JJJeff Jordan12:38

       And, um, you know, the, the lead gen was really important. Y- if so, um, say y- you know, car repair or hair salon, they typically have a customer they- that is a regular. They, you know, "I g- I go to the same place to get my hair cut, uh, you know, each time." If, if you go and say, "I want you to pay me, like, a slice of each transaction," yeah, they're gonna just say no. There's free scheduling tools online. Why would I pay you for, you know, for access to my customer? And so what's, what's wonderful about dining is people crave diversity, the new, new restaurant, the new, different cuisine, this, that. And so because they crave diversity, we often were introducing a diner to a new restaurant and the restaurant finds high value in that. So if we were just giving, helping the restaurant, y- you know, i- i- enable, digitally enable their own customer, we c- we couldn't have charged what we charged. It was that new customer that they value so much.

   19. HSHarry Stebbings13:34

       Can I ask, how do you think about how, like, new customer acquisition has changed given the rise of TikTok, given the rise of short form video, given the changing landscape that we have today?

   20. JJJeff Jordan13:45

       The only constant is it's constantly changing (laughs) 'cause, I mean, th- think of the advent of mobile. I mean, it, it, you know, and, you know, it used to be Google had, you know, the google.com had that monopoly. And so you just have to keep your finger on the pulse of, okay, what is new? My partner, Connie Chen, thinks TikTok has a cha- you know, in China is already replacing a lot of the Google use cases, you know, on, you know. And one of the ones we argue about constantly is restaurant discovery. She, she's, she says in China people are discovering restaurants through TikTok. And it's just kind of, that, that's a different use case than I envisioned for that platform, but, you know, then again if you're a restaurant you, you gotta stay current and try to figure out, okay, what's, what's the next thing, what's the new thing?

   21. HSHarry Stebbings14:25

       I, I saw an unbelievable stat which is like 45% of millennials use TikTok instead of Google as their primary search engine.

   22. JJJeff Jordan14:32

       Yeah.

   23. HSHarry Stebbings14:32

       So-

   24. JJJeff Jordan14:33

       So, I mean, th- that, that's Connie's argument, and so she's, uh, you know, uh, she's, she's a smart investor.

   25. HSHarry Stebbings14:38

       Can I ask, uh, the boards that you sit on, internally are you saying, "Shit, we need to get on video. We need to get on TikTok." Like, what do those conversations look like? Because it's coming so thick and fast. I think everyone can-

   26. JJJeff Jordan14:51

       Yeah, I mean, you're, you're constantly looking for the new channel. I mean, there w- has been a duopoly for too long between Google and Facebook, um, and, you know, you know, there's this meme in the ve- venture business that, uh, y- you know, you don't want to fund companies w- where you're just basically, you know, you transfer money to the company and the company transfers money to Facebook and Google. So, uh, I, I, I am reluctant to invest in companies that, that require, um, he- p- heavy paid marketing to build their audience. Um, you know, the, the best concepts, uh, typically don't need ... You know, they're, they're so compelling they don't need to buy users. Uh, that's not, that's not a categorical rule 'cause TikTok buys users at monstrous scale, but, you know, Google really didn't buy many users, Facebook didn't buy many users. You know, it tick, tick, tick, tick.

   27. HSHarry Stebbings15:36

       Can I ask, how do you think ... I, I, I totally get you in terms of not wanting to rely on paid. How do you think about when is the right time to really double down on paid and actually just spend a lot?

   28. JJJeff Jordan15:46

       I mean, it's, it's when you know your unit economics and, you know, you're comfortable that it works. Early on I, I, I was a big, uh, proponent of that, uh, e-commerce was gonna clean the clock for the department stores. I got the, the thesis half right. Share did shift. Um, no one could make money other than Amazon because of, um, d- there's just no, uh, defensibility, no barriers to entry. So, you know, with the, you know, "Look at that Mattress In a Box company got to 100 million in eight minutes." Well, so did the other nine. And so then they're all fighting for the same customer on the same channels wi- with the same product, and as a result, you know, cost of acquisition went up and price is capped because you c- y- you know, you typically are trying to compete in price, and, and the movie ends badly. So, you know, i- th- th- that's the concern.

   29. HSHarry Stebbings16:33

       What do you do then if ... So I totally agree with you, and also on mattresses your repeat rate's not very high. (laughs) Um-

   30. JJJeff Jordan16:40

       Yeah.
4. 43:23 – 48:31

   Board Member Tips

   1. HSHarry Stebbings43:23

      board member, I spoke to many founders that you're on the board of, um, how would you describe your style of board membership, Jeff?

   2. JJJeff Jordan43:29

      I, I think there are issues that the board should, uh, be involved in, and there are issues that they shouldn't be involved in. I, I had a board member at, uh, OpenTable who wanted to design the product and, you know, that, that, for me, was not a, a productive board activity. (laughs) So, yeah, you, you try to g- keep on the topics that o- the board is there, and then you try to add value, um, in a surgical way, um, and in an em- empathetic way. You know, just kind of, I've been in that chair. That is a hard chair, so I'm not gonna, you know... I, I, I very rarely... I, I aspire not to not, you know, come across as sharp, critical. You know, just, it's, it's, it's, you know, I... Y- you just surgically pick the topics where you think, uh, you know, it, it makes sense to opine and you have something to say. I mean, there's a Grateful Dead lyric, "Please don't dominate the rap, Jack, if you got nothin' new to say." Way too many board members just talk for air time, and, you know, I, I try not to be that person.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings44:23

      What can founders do to generate and build the best relationship of trust with their board?

   4. JJJeff Jordan44:28

      The most important thing is, uh, pick your board members selectively. Um, you know, if the founder who comes in, you know, uh, y- you know, g- gets 10 term sheets, uh, spends an hour with each of the GPs and then picks one, I, I don't know how you'd, you know... You're, you're actually picking your boss potentially for t- uh, a decade or more. Y- you know, spend a little time thinking about it, getting to know them. Do we, you know, share the same values? Do we have the same vision? You know, just to, you know, it's, it's, you know... Be selective in whose money you take is, would be the biggest advice.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings45:02

      I agree. Jeff, we both invested in very compressed timelines over the last 24 months. We'd... Well, I, I didn't. Uh, and many entrepreneurs didn't. I, I, I guess you didn't, 'cause otherwise, you just lost every deal. "Oh, Jeff, I want a month getting to know you." "Well, I'm deciding next week."

   6. JJJeff Jordan45:18

      Yeah, yeah.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings45:18

      How did...

   8. JJJeff Jordan45:19

      A mon- you know, a mon... You, you... It's hard to get the month. It is, um, you know, y- this, the fund... You, you experienced this. It's the job of a hurry up and wait, uh, you know, just you're... You know, you're just kissing frogs, kissing frogs, kissing frogs. Something comes in, and then you just have to, you know, you, you have to dive on it and spend it. You know, so we try to get as much time with the entrepreneur as we can, even in the compressed time frames. You know, you, you know, you, you're doing dinner. You're, we're do, do our reverse pitch. You're, you know, you're, you're just trying to, you know, make that personal judgment on a compressed timeframe 'cause that i- that is the reality of the market. I, you know, I try not to write s- checks in one day, but, you know, the market often doesn't give you a month, and if it's a month, it's often an adverse signal, so it's, you know, that they can't raise.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings46:02

      Uh, I think there's a lot of misalignments between VCs and founders that we don't talk about. What do you think are the biggest misalignments between founders and VCs?

   10. JJJeff Jordan46:09

       I think the biggest one is, uh, VCs have a portfolio, and, uh, the founders have, uh, N of one. And so, yeah, I, I try to be very explicit on that. You know, y- y- the founder says, "Okay, I have a fork in the road. W- you know, w- which, what's your point of view on where I should go?" And it's just like, "Listen, just so you know, I have a portfolio. Uh, b- because of that, I'm willing to, you know... I, I, I, I'm attracted to the, the, the riskier but higher upside one. You don't have a portfolio." S- so that's an important, you know, uh, uh, uh, different alignment, and when you... L- let's be, let's be completely up front on that.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings46:44

       When you think about the boards that you sit on, who's the best board member that you sit on a board with, and why them?

   12. JJJeff Jordan46:49

       Uh, you know, I'm privileged, uh, at this point to be on, with a lot of very good board members. Um, you know, the, the, the team at, uh, Pinterest, the team at, uh, Airbnb, the, the team at Instacart, uh, uh, are both, you know, have all gotten, you know, very, very high-quality folks. And they're filled with folks who kind of have the same philosophy I have. Don't dominate the rap if you got nothing new to say. (laughs)

   13. HSHarry Stebbings47:11

       I spoke to Alfred Lin, um, before the show, and he mentioned your walks, uh, during COVID on Sundays. What do you think makes Alfred a very good board member?

   14. JJJeff Jordan47:19

       Uh, I think he's very thoughtful. He does his work. Um, he's got unique insights. I, I mean, I, I'd s- it's been a pleasure partnering with him at, at Airbnb, so, uh, uh, I'm a big fan.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings47:30

       (laughs) It was very funny. I asked him what your weakness was, and he said, "The biggest weakness Jeff has is he works with a competitor." (laughs)

   16. JJJeff Jordan47:37

       (laughs) Yeah, we hold Segoi in high regard. They're very good at what they do.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings47:42

       Uh, final one for you. A lot of young VCs listen to the show. What advice would you give to young board members who are assuming their first board roles?

   18. JJJeff Jordan47:51

       Watch what seasoned board members do. Is that person adding value? If so, how are they doing it and, you know, and why? You know, just, just, you know, model what's on there. I remember, you know, well, I remember my first board. It was Hotwire and, um, you know, with David Bonderman on it of TPG and, you know, uh, uh, you know, the ex-head of Saber was on it and, you know, just... So I just watched, you know, fascinating on okay, what do these guys, very experienced people, do on boards? And then there's the contra-example where someone's just driving you crazy because they're designing product in the board meeting and, you know, it's kind of... So pay attention.

   19. HSHarry Stebbings48:27

       I want to move into a quick fire. So I say a short statement, Jeff, you give me

5. 48:31 – 53:10

   Quick Fire Round

   1. HSHarry Stebbings48:31

      your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

   2. JJJeff Jordan48:33

      Sounds good.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings48:34

      What book would you most recommend to the audience?

   4. JJJeff Jordan48:36

      There are two I read recently, both on race relations and both on sports. Um, one was, uh, Major Taylor and the other is I Come as a Shadow by John Thompson, his autobiography. I found both fascinating because both the sports and the, um, and the, uh, the racial topics. It really makes, uh, race in, in America come alive.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings48:58

      What's been the best change to happen internally at Andreessen over the last one to two years?

   6. JJJeff Jordan49:04

      We're hell-bent on world domination and the, um, you know, the number of new funds and new areas we're investing in is fascinating. You know, it's crypto, it's bio, it's games, it's, you know, it just keeps going.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings49:15

      What's the worst change that's happened?

   8. JJJeff Jordan49:17

      The exact same thing, because the firm's gotten huge. So it's, we're over 400 people and it's, you know, in COVID and post-COVID, it's hard to get to know your coworkers. So it's become a, uh, it's become large.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings49:30

      December 2023, will we be in a better or a worse macro place?

   10. JJJeff Jordan49:35

       You plan for worse and you hope for better.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings49:39

       What do you believe that many around you disbelieve?

   12. JJJeff Jordan49:41

       You know, at eBay we had this phrase, "People are basically good." Um, I do believe that. You know, I love the, uh, companies, businesses that work for economic empowerment for the communities. Airbnb, Chef, Sniffspot, you know, uh, eBay.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings49:58

       Tell me, what do you know now that you wish you'd known when you started in venture day one at Andreessen?

   14. JJJeff Jordan50:03

       Saying before, made so many mistakes. I was looking for a new learning curve after I kind of, I kind of... it shallowed a lot as an operator. I found a new learning curve.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings50:14

       What was the hardest thing to learn? Mine is getting comfortable with wasted time. Like if you're an operator, you spend a day doing something, you have a day's output here. We could meet 10 entrepreneurs. Oh, shit.

   16. JJJeff Jordan50:28

       Yeah, I'll say. Yeah, I agree with that. And the, um, there, uh, I forget what I was gonna... forget where I was going. That's, uh, yeah. Oh, um, hit rate. It is so hard to. I mean, you're a spectacular investor if half your companies create value, which means half your companies don't create value. And that hit rate, if you're batting 500 as an operator, you're an ex-operator.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings50:50

       What's your hit rate, Jeff?

   18. JJJeff Jordan50:52

       Uh, I'm not allowed to talk about that. We're RIAs (laughs) .

   19. HSHarry Stebbings50:56

       Oh right, yeah, sorry. There's some things where I'm just really naive and I'm like, "Oh wow, okay, fair enough." Uh, tell me, who's the most underrated angel in the ecosystem? When you're like, "I want to bring them in." Who do you want to bring in?

   20. JJJeff Jordan51:08

       Kevin McHappy, the Lookout co-founder. Um, quietly, he's built quite an impressive little portfolio. So I was not smart enough to invest in him until his fourth fund, but hopefully, I can correct that.

   21. HSHarry Stebbings51:20

       What's the biggest miss and how did it impact your process?

   22. JJJeff Jordan51:23

       You know, the biggest miss, I think, was I had an opportunity to do DoorDash early and, um, I loved Tony as a founder. I had the thesis on the food delivery market that you shouldn't... There's no defensible barrier to entry and that, you know, the end state was restaurants with 20 iPads, you know, taking orders from everyone. So I think I made, this is Andy Duke again, I think I made the right decision. It worked out badly. I did not anticipate Travis getting capped at Uber Eats and then the level of consolidation that happened in the industry. And Tony created a very valuable product in DoorDash.

   23. HSHarry Stebbings51:59

       Why did Uber Eats tail off?

   24. JJJeff Jordan52:01

       My read is DoorDash out-executed in the post-Travis world.

   25. HSHarry Stebbings52:06

       Yeah, no, I agree. Anil Michael agrees too. What's the best investment advice you've ever received?

   26. JJJeff Jordan52:12

       Don't bet on current market size, bet on future market size.

   27. HSHarry Stebbings52:15

       Final one. What's the most recent publicly announced investment and why did you get so excited?

   28. JJJeff Jordan52:20

       Uh, it's Codi, which is a marketplace for commercial real estate that seeks to tear up the incredibly awkward, for NewCo, seven-year lease and lets you lease space a couple days a week, um, on a nine-month term instead of a seven-year term for off-sites. It's just making commercial real estate liquid and, uh, you know, post-pandemic, that looks like that's an option. That, by the way, a bunch of my companies have already availed themselves of. When you describe, okay, you don't have to do a seven-year lease, you can do a 12-month lease. Uh, you people kind of go, "Where do I sign?"

   29. HSHarry Stebbings52:59

       We spoke to them before the show (laughs) . Yeah, uh, but Jeff, listen, I've loved this. Thank you so much for your time today and you've been a great guest.

   30. JJJeff Jordan53:07

       My pleasure, Harry. Thank you for, uh, thank you for inviting me.

Episode duration: 53:10