Alain De Botton: Why Status is Making You Miserable & Why Parents Want Their Kids to Fail | E1227

1. 0:00 – 0:53

   Intro

   1. ABAlain de Botton0:00

      (instrumental music plays) A marker of good parenting is that your child doesn't have any wish to be famous. There's tremendous envy in- within families and within people. Envy is one of the key motivators, and people are envious of their children. The problem with modern society is that everybody wants to be big. Everybody wants to matter. If you don't have a plan, you'll fall prey to the plans of others. And what goes wrong often in people's lives is they don't really have a plan. When companies start talking about loving their employees and being a family, et cetera, they've tied themselves in a knot. They've borrowed the language of private life in order to foster a short-term sense of togetherness.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:33

      Ready to go? (instrumental music plays) Alain, I'm so excited to make this happen. I am probably one of the biggest fans of your work. So thank you so much for joining me today.

   3. ABAlain de Botton0:52

      Thank you so much.

2. 0:53 – 8:48

   Understanding Status & Our Desire for It

   1. ABAlain de Botton0:53

      Thank you for having me.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:53

      Now, I would love to start, we live in this kind of social media-driven world.

   3. ABAlain de Botton0:58

      Mm-hmm.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:58

      And I also live in this financial-driven world.

   5. ABAlain de Botton1:00

      Mm-hmm.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings1:00

      And at the core of both is status.

   7. ABAlain de Botton1:02

      Mm-hmm.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings1:03

      And so I wanna start with, how do you define status?

   9. ABAlain de Botton1:06

      Mm-hmm.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings1:06

       And why do we want it so much?

   11. ABAlain de Botton1:08

       Mm-hmm. Well, let's start with the second bit. I think we want status, um, if this isn't, doesn't sound too weird, for love. Uh, I don't mean sexual love or romantic love. I mean love in the broad sense: esteem, um, friendship recognition. Um, you know, we live in a world where what you do defines who you are. Um, that's a relatively modern way of doing things. It wasn't always the case. But, you know, nowadays, first time you meet somebody, they will immediately ask you, "What do you do?" According to how you answer that, you'll either be acclaimed and, you know, "Oh, that's very interesting," or you'll be left behind by the peanuts and you'll be made to feel that you don't really exist. You will become an invisible, uh, person. So we want status for, you know, I mean, very often material ends. But it's not really the material ends that we want. It's the, it's the, it's the love and respect and esteem that comes with those ends. I mean, if you said to somebody, "Right, you got a choice. Either we give you, you know, £400 million a year, but everyone who looks at you will treat you like a pariah, will treat you with, you know, ignominy, you'll, you'll, you'll feel, you'll feel shame, et cetera, but £400 million a year, or you can live on £15,000 a year and whenever, wherever you go, people will greet you with warmth, with adulation, with love, with respect, ta-da. Which one do you want?" I think the, uh, vast majority were gonna want the second option. So we, you know, people often say, "We're very materialistic nowadays." We're not particularly materialistic. What we are is we're hungry for status, for love, respect, dignity. And we live in a world in which, um, that status is available via the acquisition of material goods. It's not really the material goods. I mean, y- you know, I'm sure you've had people sitting in this chair who will tell you again and again, "I'm not doing it for the money." And of course they're not. They're not. They're not doing it for the money. They're doing it for the love.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings3:01

       Is the status element like a lack of respect for ourselves?

   13. ABAlain de Botton3:05

       Mm-hmm.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings3:05

       That we need other people to recognize us because we don't recognize ourselves as being good enough?

   15. ABAlain de Botton3:09

       Y- yes. And, and of course people are, um, different in, uh, you know, their, their, the amount of estimation that they have independently of others. So we all know people who are fairly, you know, we call them robust. In other words, um, they don't fold simply because the crowd is not acclaiming them. Sometimes they might even be emboldened. They might feel thrilled by the disdain of the majority. But, you know, they can maintain self-belief despite an absence of adulation. And then we know at the other end of the spectrum, people who will literally not be able to choose what to have for lunch without aligning their taste with yours, so worried are they about the consequences of in any way diverging from the views of others. We call these people, people pleasers, um, yes men or women. Uh, you know, these are people who, for whom any departure from external, uh, the external verdict is gonna be extremely dangerous. And s- and, you know, and on the whole, psychologists would argue, and, uh, you know, and s- I think it's almost common sense, that the amount of independence that you're capable of in adulthood is, um, directly related to the amount of love and esteem you were given as a child from people who esteemed you for yourself as opposed to for anything that you did. So, um, you know, whenever you see a very robust individual who seems not to care what others are thinking of them, probably there's somebody who early on said to them, "It doesn't matter what everybody thinks. You're my prize little bunny." Or whatever it was. And they were three years old. And it stuck. And it, it gave them a kind of psychological armor which has lasted them into, into adulthood. Tremendously valuable.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings4:48

       Is this worse than ever before because of social media, because of likes, the counting of likes, the wider recognition of, "Oh my gosh, it got 1,000 likes. It went viral."

   17. ABAlain de Botton4:58

       Mm-hmm.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings4:59

       Have ... Is this worse than ever today?

   19. ABAlain de Botton5:01

       Probably is. You know, it's been getting worse ever since we moved to large cities, which, you know, depending on what part of the world. Y- you know, it's a, it's an urban phenomenon. It's, it's a modern phenomenon. It's, um, whenever you dislocate people from settled, um, village, rural life where people are essentially defined, uh, by a much narrower, much more stable group of people. They'll go, "Oh," you know, um, and also there's a limit to your achievement. So, so, you know, the sky's not the limit. It's like you're gonna roughly do what your parents did. Uh, these things keep a lid on some of this, a restlessness. So I think, you know, the defining, um, mood of modernity, hyper-modernity is anxiety. Um, uh-... you know, your business, business generally thrives. What we mean by anxiety is an uncertainty about the future, both in an exciting and, uh, a worrying, uh, direction. But the point is, the future is uncertain. We, we no longer believe that we live in cyclical time. For most of history, people have believed in cyclical time. In other words, that, that history just repeats itself. We don't believe that now. The seasons may repeat themselves, but that's about the only thing that does. Everything else, you know, think of the way the media is always reporting the new, the novel, um, and this has kind of colored our deep insides and our, our, our psyches. And yes, so are we more restless than ever before? Are there more causes of anxiety than before? Absolutely, all the indicators suggest that's the case. Um, that's why everybody's scrambling around thinking, "Okay," you know, it, it's the paradox of modernity. We are richer than ever before, but more restless and anxious than ever before.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings6:32

       Do you agree with the removal from cyclicality of life? That, you know, Ray Dalio's written a book in terms of how we look at, you know, I think it was 1917 Spanish influenza and COVID, and actually, although COVID seemed completely, uh, unique-

   21. ABAlain de Botton6:45

       Mm-hmm.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings6:45

       ... in terms of its impact on humanity, actually, it, it's cyclical, and there was another one in the 1700s and-

   23. ABAlain de Botton6:49

       Mm-hmm.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings6:50

       Is, is this actually still within cycles?

   25. ABAlain de Botton6:52

       Well, I mean, I, I think, um, in many ways, yes, but also it's tremendously helpful, I think, uh, for, for us as individuals to look out for these patterns. Because, um, well, it simplifies life. As, as, as we know, whenever you see a pattern, what, what you're essentially doing is removing, um, the unfamiliar and the possibly dangerous from a situation, because you're thinking, "Oh, okay, I know what this is gonna be like or what this is like." I mean, we, we get this with, with people, don't we? Uh, uh, uh, after a certain age, you think, "I've met this person before." Um, of course, you haven't met exactly that person, but you've met someone a bit like them before, 'cause there are only so many human types. And ultimately, there are only so many s- human situations in many, many cases. I mean, they say, you know, literary theorists like to say there are only eight stories in the world. There may be 12, there may be 15, but there are not a thousand. I think that's the point. To be able to spot these patterns, I think, calms us down, because one of the ills of the modern age is this belief that we are always in unparalleled, uncharted waters. And that's an exhausting and I think untrue, um, uh, uh, y- you know, um, perspective on things. I mean, for example, you know, people... We, we're filming at the time of the American election, a lot of doubts about where America's going, et cetera. You know, a, a Roman historian would go, "Oh, we've been here before." You know, the teetering between, uh, empire and republic and republic and empire, um, decadent rulers, the pressures of, you know, the provinces on the center, um, the draining of discipline. We, we've been here before. There are patterns. And, and historians of ancient China would go, "Well, again, we've seen these things before." So, you know, the human animal doesn't change. Our constitution is the same now as it was, uh, you know, mm, thousands of years ago. And that puts a, a cap, really, on the amount of novelty that we're able to, to build. We build a lot of new tools. We are tool builders. We always have been. And our tools are getting ever more ingenious, complex, et cetera. But the people using these tools, uh, remain, um, uh, you know, beautifully, uh, antiquated.

3. 8:48 – 10:18

   Should Leaders Project Confidence When Uncertain?

   1. ABAlain de Botton8:48

   2. HSHarry Stebbings8:48

      When you speak about kind of the anxiety that comes from the ambiguity of not knowing what's to come-

   3. ABAlain de Botton8:53

      Mm-hmm.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings8:53

      ... I think, as a leader, to say, "Right, well, then I must be clear, I must be very direct and know the answer-"

   5. ABAlain de Botton9:01

      Mm-hmm.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings9:01

      "... and show the way."

   7. ABAlain de Botton9:02

      Mm-hmm.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings9:02

      The trouble is-

   9. ABAlain de Botton9:04

      (laughs)

   10. HSHarry Stebbings9:04

       ... I don't always know the answer.

   11. ABAlain de Botton9:05

       Mm-hmm.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings9:06

       And so should we be confidently directing the crowd-

   13. ABAlain de Botton9:11

       Mm-hmm.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings9:11

       ... even though we don't know the answer? Or is it okay to say, "I don't know"?

   15. ABAlain de Botton9:15

       Mm-hmm. Uh, s- of course. I mean, y- you know, Socrates, go back to ancient Greece, Socrates apparently the wisest man, uh, in, uh, in the ancient world was asked, you know, on what basis his wisdom rested. And he said, "Because I know that I don't know." And so unlike, you know, his whole, whole... The, the, the birth of Western philosophy is the idea that by admitting and, and sensing one's ignorance, one can actually make progress. That the enemy of, of progress are people who think they know the answer. And that, uh, you know, has to be the case, that in, in many situations, that a naive inquiry is, um, is often the gateway to serious discoveries. And, you know, people who are leaders in their field often have about them, um, a courage in asking the so-called obvious question, which isn't obvious at all. Uh, they're able to put themselves in the shoes and they're able to inhabit without shame the position of someone who doesn't know, doesn't understand. So they might stick up their hand and go, "What's everybody saying? You know, we, we think we know what we're talking about. Do we?" What... You know, and questioning from first premises. These are often

4. 10:18 – 13:34

   Is it Bad To Be Status Driven?

   1. ABAlain de Botton10:18

      very useful moves.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings10:19

      It goes back to the element of status and others' perception around you and how you think people will think if you ask the question of what is a very basic or not a basic question that you are fearful of asking. Is it bad to be status driven?

   3. ABAlain de Botton10:32

      I, I think, you know, bad is a, is a, is a loaded term. I think it can make one, um... It, it can be quite exhausting. Because if you think about y- you know, what, what you might need to do in order to get status, um, it may not be in line with what you, in other parts of your personality, are after. So, um, it can be an exhausting and slightly futile pursuit. Also because, as we know from anyone who's, um, you know, sought fame, um, which is kind of the extreme end of status seeking, fame generally doesn't deliver on its promises. Because, you, you know, what the fame-seeking person wants is, is love, respect, dignity, and what they find instead is envy, insecurity, um, backlash, et cetera. And so the capacity to be anonymous and to bear anonymity is, you know, rather good. Uh, uh, at the School of Life which I run, we, we say that, um, a marker of good parenting is that your child doesn't have any wish to be famous. And, you know, that's probably a good sign.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings11:33

      Why is that?

   5. ABAlain de Botton11:34

      Because it means that they have an internal system of validation rather than an external system of validation. They are not seeking to be known by strangers. They, they can be-... uh, content to be known by a small circle of people that they actually know back. So, it's, it's two-way rather than a broadcast system. As soon as you have a broadcast system of knowledge, um, the world gets slightly impoverished.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings11:57

      And so for my future parent, I should be telling my child that, "You are enough in yourself. You don't need the world to tell you you're great. Believe in your-"

   7. ABAlain de Botton12:05

      (laughs)

   8. HSHarry Stebbings12:05

      "... inner potential."

   9. ABAlain de Botton12:06

      Right. I mean, you know, it then, it then raises the question of what's legitimate ambition as opposed to what's status-driven ambition? And y- y- you know, um, it's a big, it's a big question. Now, I happen to believe that there is such a thing as intrinsic ambition. And look, the ancient Greeks believed in the concept known as eudaimonia. And eudaimonia is, uh, uh, translated, uh, sometimes loosely as happiness, but it really means flourishing. And the Greeks, uh, Greek philosophers thought that the, the goal of e- every sort of noble person should be the pursuit of, uh, eudaimonia. In other words, that everyone should be looking out for to enhance their flourishing and the flourishing of others. You go, "Well, what's that got to do with ambition?" Well, I think the most legitimate ambition is, in some ways, to bite off some area of the eudaimonic project and make that a thing that you pursue according to your talents. Um, so, uh, it's a, it's a meeting of talent and interest, and, um, over this area of eudaimonia, which that's not very prescriptive. That allows for an enormous range of activities. But, but, you know, to let a child know, okay, you're, you're part of the human project, um, don't seek money for its own sake beyond a certain level, don't seek status for its own sake, right, but pursue, um, you know, a eudaimonic goal, I think that's a good message to, uh, to send to a child.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings13:26

       That is the first time I've said eudaimonic goal on this show, but I'm embracing this new term.

   11. ABAlain de Botton13:30

       We, we... You shou- you should do it every time.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings13:31

       I'm... I will do.

   13. ABAlain de Botton13:32

       Every time.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings13:32

       Trust me. I'm gonna quote you for it.

5. 13:34 – 16:32

   Do Parents Have a Duty to Temper Unrealistic Ambitions?

   1. ABAlain de Botton13:34

      Mm-hmm.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings13:34

      Um, my, my question on the back of that is, if a child's ambition is seemingly going to only end in sadness for them, do you as a parent have a duty of responsibility to say, uh, "Um, I'm so sorry. You will not be Beyoncé"? (laughs)

   3. ABAlain de Botton13:47

      Well, um, you know, one of the things... I did a psychotherapy training, and one of the things they teach you in psychotherapy training is that, uh, an insight that a person reaches themselves, um, is worth, you know, much, much more than an insight which has been given to them, pre-prepared by somebody else. It's about the level of depth to which, uh, an insight will go in per- someone's personality. Um, and th- this is a way to say if you tell your child the answer, um, it won't be worth that much. But if you allow your child to find their way to the answer, then the lesson will really stick. And this is the agony of parenthood, that you simply cannot rush the child to the answer. You can't say, "This is it. This is how you should live. I've spent, you know, 50 years working it out, and I made lots of mistakes." You know, there you have to allow that they're gonna, uh, you know, make their own errors and from that learn. And, and, and it's agonizing to watch. And it, it's part of the reason why the human race stays so dumb because we're... the transmission of knowledge from generation to generation is so, um, it always has to pass through the filter of what broadly you can call adolescence. And in adolescence, lots of the good ideas, also some of the bad ideas, but lots of the good ideas of the previous generation are thrown out. But it's a kind of filter that's applied. Um, and, and some bad ideas, uh, get, get thrown out. I think, you know, uh, looking at it through an evolutionary biological lens, that's maybe the function of adolescence, is to, is to, um, act as a sieve between sort of generational knowledge. Um, but it, but it does slow things down quite a lot, um, because people, you know... A p- a parent who's had, you know, three divorces and has finally worked out the secrets of love, you know, they got a kid, and, uh, you know, are they really gonna share that knowledge? And is it gonna, is it gonna transmit properly?

   4. HSHarry Stebbings15:33

      Can I ask you, when we don't have the status, people go, "Oh, loser."

   5. ABAlain de Botton15:39

      Yeah.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings15:40

      How do we think about the term loser and its place in society today?

   7. ABAlain de Botton15:43

      Mm-hmm. Well, it's a very modern term. Let's go back to the ancient Romans. The ancient Romans thought that your success is only ever partly your success. It's, it's a combination of your skill, talent, and energy, and the intervention of divine forces. This could sound kind of weird, like, divine force? But, uh, the Greeks and the Romans and, in fact, most pre-modern civilizations believed in divine intervention in all areas of life. So, we are highly unusual in thinking that we are the authors of our own lives. Most societies, for most periods of history, have believed that any achievement is, is a combination of individual effort and divine intervention. Um-

   8. HSHarry Stebbings16:20

      It's why the Greeks had the unbundling of the gods, isn't it? Like, the god of sun-

   9. ABAlain de Botton16:24

      Right.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings16:24

       ... whether it was lucky that we won because the sun shone on us or-

   11. ABAlain de Botton16:27

       Absolutely. Absolutely. Um, and, and, you know, so the Greeks were obsessed by, by hubris, by the concept

6. 16:32 – 18:53

   A Term ‘Loser’ in Society Today

   1. ABAlain de Botton16:32

      of forgetting the, the role of divine intervention. That's, that's their definition of hubris. Um, and they were always thinking that you c- you are the master of your fate, that, that is, that... You know, all Greek legends, histories, they're all about this. It's, it's only ever about human arrogance. So, clearly they were tempted by this. We've gone hook, line, and sinker for this temptation. Anyway, let's come back to this, this concept of loser. So, so for example, the Romans were obsessed by the goddess of fortune, Fortuna. All around Italy, all around the Italian peninsula, they had shrines to the goddess Fortuna. If your ship came in, if you were a merchant, if you were a venture capitalist in ancient Rome, um, and things did, things went well... They had venture capitalists, um, uh, more or less. Uh, if things went well, you would immediately go and thank the goddess of fortune because you knew it wasn't really you. I mean, you think it's all you.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings17:18

      It's absolutely me.

   3. ABAlain de Botton17:19

      But, but, but, but-

   4. HSHarry Stebbings17:20

      Even though there's someone else building the company, doing all the work, it is me.

   5. ABAlain de Botton17:23

      Exactly.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings17:24

      (laughs)

   7. ABAlain de Botton17:24

      So, Fortuna was the person you'd go and thank. And that's why, um, you find it in language. So, in the medieval period in England, in English, in old-fashioned English, what is a poor person? A poor person is an unfortunate, literally somebody who is, you know... word Fortuna, un-fortune. Fortuna has not smiled on this person. So, why are they poor? Why are they begging, et cetera? Well, you know, uh-... fortune has, you know, fortune has kind of d- done them in. Nowadays in America, as you point out, especially in America, uh, what somebody's not done well, they're not enough fortunate, they're a loser. Much tougher word. Why are they a loser? They're a loser because the word loser suggests that people are operating within a race, within a fair race, a fair race. Where individual effort is fairly rewarded, and therefore, if you don't do well, the consequences of not doing well are much harsher. And this is, again, it's a paradox of modernity, that, um, we hold people much more tightly responsible for their fates. And therefore, if people mess up, the, the psychological consequences are harder than ever. Yes, we may have social security in certain developed nations, so people might not starve, but psychically, they might starve, which is why rates of suicide, uh, are still stubbornly high, e- especially in, in these societies where, which place great emphasis on individual success. Because if you don't succeed and you've had every chance and it's a fair race, well, what's wrong with you? And the answer is, well, it could be something very wrong, at which point you might think you don't really deserve to be around. So, at its most extreme, that's what it can inspire.

7. 18:53 – 21:16

   Luck vs. Skill

   1. ABAlain de Botton18:53

   2. HSHarry Stebbings18:53

      Uh, there's two core things I just have to ask there, which is, you know, you mentioned fortune or the misfortune being obviously kind of poorer people in that respect, how do you think about luck versus skill? You mentioned that, you know, as a venture capitalist, we think it's all us. If I'm honest, Alan, I do think (laughs) , like, I've, I have heart palpitations, I have psoriasis, I'm aging as a 28-year-old, because I've worked every weekend for 10 years, and I've given it my unwavering life while everyone else has had holidays and time off.

   3. ABAlain de Botton19:24

      Sure.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings19:24

      Um, is it luck or skill?

   5. ABAlain de Botton19:26

      Um, look, I would say that in your area of the world, it probably, you know, look, it depends how far you want to draw, um, the lens. You know, you had a certain amount of luck being born to the parents you were born to, in the society you were born to, at the time you were born, et cetera. So there are these sort of macro luck elements. Um, and, you know, in, in many ways, you're standing on the shoulders of lots and lots of people, et cetera. But I wanna think about your weekends too, and, and it's a combination. But I think what psychoanalysis, which is the discipline that I'm very interested in, tells us, is that when people do stuff, um, lucky, favorable or, and unfavorable, they're often driven by unconscious, um, patterns in themselves that they don't really understand. And, you know, the whole concept of sort of self-sabotage that some people go in for. In other words, a kind of drive towards ill luck. People, people make their own bad luck. What is that? Um, we might all know people, for example, who whenever they get close to success, mess it up. And you're thinking, "What's going on here?" And we might say, "Oh, just bad luck." But no, there is a sort of drive towards failure, um, which is a fascinating thing. And frequently, you know, what's going on there often is some sort of relationship that's being played out with a parent or a, a caregiver from childhood. Um, a lot of parents are not necessari- some parents are not necessarily that happy if their children succeed, which can lead to an odd situation where people think, "I'm not allowed to succeed. If I succeed, I might lose the love of people who depend on me not doing so well, um, so I better draw back." A lot of people are afraid of their own potency, uh, uh, afraid of their own power, because it might upset somebody in their vicinity.

8. 21:16 – 23:34

   Why Would a Parent Be Unhappy with Their Child’s Success?

   1. ABAlain de Botton21:16

   2. HSHarry Stebbings21:16

      Why would a parent be unhappy with a child being successful?

   3. ABAlain de Botton21:20

      Uh, you're thinking in common sense terms, um, because, uh, because there's tremendous envy in, within families and within people. Envy is one of the key motivators. And people are envious of their children. Very strange thought. I mean, one thinks, you know, surely that's not possible. Yes, ab- absolutely. In other words, people can be threatened by the achievements. You know, there are people who think their children are too beautiful, uh, that their children are too clever, their children have got advantages they didn't have. It's, you have to be fairly settled in yourself to allow a child to have a better life than you had. I, I know the cliché is that every parent wants that. No. I don't... I mean, I, my experiences do not bear that out. That's a nice story, and it, obviously very true in some cases, but in other cases, no, it's more complicated. The, the message might be something like, you know, "Do well, but not better than me." Or, "Do well so that you don't humiliate me, but not so well that you threaten me." And s- you know, odd, odd messages are sent down the generations. Very odd messages.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings22:16

      (laughs)

   5. ABAlain de Botton22:16

      Um, you know, succeed financially, but don't be happy. That can be a message that is sent through. You're, you're a- you're allowed to make money, but the price you must pay is you must screw up your relationships, for example. That can be a message that's given by, a- an unconsciously directed message, um-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings22:30

      How is that, like, unconsciously directed? I'm just interested, 'cause that would be a message that I would give consciously. (laughs)

   7. ABAlain de Botton22:36

      (laughs) Um, I think it comes from your whole, the whole orientate... I mean, first of all, let, let's just accept that things do happen between people that don't, um, have words involved. I mean, it's quite, it's quite odd, 'cause you think, surely the only way in which I can communicate with another person is, is to say something to them. But that's not... Or, or say something direct to them. But there's lots of indirect ways in which one person can influence another by suggesting what would make them happy, what they believe in. Um, you don't have to, you know, you can, you can talk about one thing and actually be talking about another. And when children grow up in families, the, the messages are, uh, you know, children get very good at sensing what their parents believe without the parent having spelt it out. You just, you kind of know, because there are little micro moments constantly that say, "Well, if my parent believed this about, you know, how to store butter in the fridge, probably means that they're also gonna think this or that about whatever." So, you know, suppositions can be made. And anyway, in that way,

9. 23:34 – 27:25

   Thoughts on Meritocracy in Today’s Society

   1. ABAlain de Botton23:34

      messages get sent.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings23:34

      You mentioned the word fair, and I did wanna touch on, like-

   3. ABAlain de Botton23:37

      Mm-hmm.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings23:37

      ... 'cause, like, meritocracy is important-

   5. ABAlain de Botton23:39

      Mm-hmm.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings23:39

      How do you feel when I say meritocracy in society today?

   7. ABAlain de Botton23:43

      You know, politicians on left and right are, are very united in the idea that meritocracy is what we wanna build. We want a, we want a meritocratic society, 'cause that seems like the best thing. Uh, uh, in other words, a society where depending on your talent and your energy and your skill, you will rise, and, um, and therefore nothing should hold you back. It's, it's opposed to the kind of old aristocratic model of like you will rise because your parents rose, and, uh, i- if they didn't, well, forget it. And that seems patently unfair. And it's a beautiful idea. It, it really is a very beautiful idea. It, it's a relatively novel idea, but it's also an idea with some difficulties in the tail, sting in the tail. Because if you really believe in a world in which everyone who gets to the top deserves to get to the top, you have to believe in a world in which those who get to the bottom deserve to be at the bottom.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings24:25

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ABAlain de Botton24:26

      And there we're back to the concept of a loser. And so, so y- you know, this is where the whole notion of human agency plays into political theory, and whether somebody's right wing or left wing has a lot to do with where they stand on that issue. Um, and traditionally, of course, Europe has stood more to the left, and the United States has stood more to the right. And before these become political positions, they start off as philosophical positions about human agency and how much we direct our... or how much we're able to direct our own life.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings24:56

       Is there a point in believing in something that is purely idealistic?

   11. ABAlain de Botton25:01

       Um, well, what do you mean by idealistic?

   12. HSHarry Stebbings25:03

       A, uh, a true meritocracy.

   13. ABAlain de Botton25:05

       Yeah.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings25:06

       Unless one wants, well, I mean, extreme communism wouldn't be-

   15. ABAlain de Botton25:09

       Mm-hmm.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings25:10

       ... a true meritocracy. Uh, i- it's, it's impossible.

   17. ABAlain de Botton25:12

       Look, I think, I think we can, um, believe in meritocracy without believing that we already have it now. Uh, uh, or in other words, a nuanced version, because every person that you meet is going to have a kind of unique trajectory, um, shaped by all sorts of things. And to simply say, "I'll just look at people's bank balance. That's the best way of looking at, uh, somebody," that's gonna be a reductive way of, of assessing people. So, you know, we're, we're, we're back to the concept of snobbery, and snobbery's an interesting thing. 'Cause a snob is really anyone who uses a particular system of judgment that's rigid and fairly one-dimensional to assess human beings. Um, and so, you know, if you meet a clothes snob and you're wearing clothes like me, he'll go, "This, this guy's not worth anything."

   18. HSHarry Stebbings25:57

       Shorts.

   19. ABAlain de Botton25:58

       Or shorts, exactly. So clothes snobs aren't gonna like that. But we need to discriminate between people. It's possible to discriminate. What identifies snobbery as a particularly unfortunate method of discrimination is its rigidity. Um, and it joins other things like racism, et cetera, in, in, in, um, drawing really, really arbitrary lines across human beings. So we're not saying everybody's equal. Um, uh, we're not saying there aren't differences in, you know, um, temperament, skill, et cetera. But it's really about how do you... what are the criteria which you're using? So, you know, Jesus, um, uh, uh... You know, fascinating that Christianity arises in the midst of the Roman Empire, and the Romans are real snobs. I mean, it's military virtue. It's money. Uh, you know, they're, they're power hungry. You know, it's the United States of their time. And, uh, along comes Jesus and basically says, "Well, there is a hierarchy, but it's different. It's a hierarchy of love. And the person who's at the top of the hierarchy is the one who loves the most, and the person who's at the bottom of the hierarchy is the one who loves the least." Very weird, very probably revolutionary concept. Um, I think we... you know, the Western world is, is sufficiently bathed in sort of neo-Christian ideology to have a little bit of room for that. To, to know that there's some bit of the truth lodged there, that, um, that when we assess people, sure, we wanna know if they're successful, but we also wanna know, are they nice? Um, we have a little bit of time for that.

10. 27:25 – 31:22

    The Role of Religion Today

    1. ABAlain de Botton27:25

    2. HSHarry Stebbings27:25

       You... I'm just intrigued 'cause you mentioned obviously, you know, the role of religion there-

    3. ABAlain de Botton27:28

       Mm-hmm.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings27:29

       ... and the role of religion today. How do you think about that today? I, I worry that it becomes less and less important in society-

    5. ABAlain de Botton27:36

       Mm-hmm.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings27:36

       ... and we replace it with idols like Cristiano Ronaldo and Taylor Swift.

    7. ABAlain de Botton27:39

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings27:40

       And I, I also don't know if that's a problem or not.

    9. ABAlain de Botton27:42

       I'm an atheist, so the problem for me with religion is that it's not true. And, and, um, and at that moment, most people throw it all out, and think, "Well, because it's not true, it's got nothing to teach us." The problem is that m- religions, uh, down the ages made a lot of maneuvers that are tremendously valuable, and simply because the supernatural claims of religion have turned out not to be verifiable, um, that doesn't mean that everything that religions were involved in has no meaning or no, no, no value.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings28:11

        What do you think is the most valuable feature that religion brought?

    11. ABAlain de Botton28:14

        Well, I think that it relativized humanity. It, it placed human beings within a broader context. And so, you know, in every pre-modern society, um, there is something that's non-human that's greater than everything human. So even the king or the queen is secondary to the god or, or some kind of supernatural force. Now you might say, "Well, who cares? What, what's the point of that?" Well, what it does is relativize everybody. Um, and the problem with modern society is that everybody wants to be big. Um, everybody wants to matter. There's a kind of impulse in everyone to be seen and noticed, and there's constant, therefore, humiliation. And so people are constantly on the edge of feeling that their size has not been respected. You know, you go to a hotel and you say, "Ahem," you know, "I got my room booked," and they say, "Well, I'm sorry. You know, we, we don't have anyone by that name," and you feel crushed, and, uh, people don't, don't respect you. Or you go to a restaurant, and you're not, you know, treated with dignity, et cetera, and people get tremendously upset. Or you're, you're in a car, and someone cuts you up and doesn't give you the respect that you feel you're owed. And the thing about religions is that they set us in a broader context, where it becomes, I wanna say, pleasurable to be small. Um, y- you feel that you're a tiny grain of sand within a vast context, and that...... relaxes you from the problems of the ego, which, you know, religions have been very interested broadly in the p- problem of the runaway ego. Um, Buddhism especially. The idea that the more that you can see yourself as evanescent, immaterial, et cetera, the calmer you're gonna be. And it's the constant striving to matter and to feel that you are immortal that is at the origin of unhappiness, or as Christianity would say, sin. You know, that sinful, The only thing that's eternal is God and God's love. And therefore, if you're trying to ape that, you're gonna be, your soul is gonna be sick.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings30:07

        So if that's kind of a feature-

    13. ABAlain de Botton30:09

        Mm-hmm.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings30:09

        ... that actually relativism within society and where we sit-

    15. ABAlain de Botton30:13

        Mm-hmm.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings30:13

        ... what's the worst thing?

    17. ABAlain de Botton30:15

        There are substitutes to religion, you know, that, um, just because you do away with God doesn't mean you do away with something large and vast. And, and that's why I think, I think we're struggling nowadays to find these replacements where people will go to, you know, look at the stars or they'll go to the Natural History Museum or they'll watch a wildlife show. And what they're trying to do, I think, is get in touch with that non-human sublime. And we struggle, but, um, but I think that's a- an impulse that people have. But you were asking another question, which is, what's the worst thing about religion?

    18. HSHarry Stebbings30:48

        Well, yeah. If that was the feature that religion brought, the good thing that it brought-

    19. ABAlain de Botton30:52

        Yeah.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings30:52

        ... to society-

    21. ABAlain de Botton30:52

        Yeah.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings30:53

        ... what is the, the rub, so to speak? What is the biggest downside?

    23. ABAlain de Botton30:57

        Well, I think, um, religious ideology is terribly prone to engaging a side of human nature which is really unfortunate, um, which is around, um, authoritarianism, dogmatism, um, black-and-white thinking, um, you know, friend-or-foe thinking. Uh, you know, religions, religious ideologies is, uh, can get very meshed in these really unhelpful ways of, um, treating

11. 31:22 – 39:57

    What Makes Work Meaningful

    1. ABAlain de Botton31:22

       human beings.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings31:22

       You said binary thinking there.

    3. ABAlain de Botton31:24

       Mm-hmm.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings31:24

       I feel like everyone today has to do meaningful work, and all my work needs to be meaningful.

    5. ABAlain de Botton31:30

       Mm-hmm.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings31:30

       It seems in, you know, 300 years ago, people did not look for meaningful work.

    7. ABAlain de Botton31:34

       Mm-hmm.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings31:35

       They, they were quite happy just doing the farm work-

    9. ABAlain de Botton31:38

       Mm-hmm.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings31:38

        ... and that was okay.

    11. ABAlain de Botton31:40

        Mm-hmm.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings31:40

        My first question is, what makes work meaningful?

    13. ABAlain de Botton31:43

        Well, I think that meaningful work is really work where you can feel that, in some way, through your labor, you are either reducing the suffering or increasing the pleasure of another human being. And if you feel that, then your work feels meaningful. So let's get, let's- let's think of some examples, right? So let's say you- you lay down wooden floors for- for a living. And at the end of the day, you can look back and your floor is, you know, you made a wooden floor, someone walks across it, could be satisfying for years, decades, hundreds of years. Um, that's very satisfying. Um, the- the problem of modern society is that many, many jobs are meaningful technically, in the sense they are bringing, um, a reduction of suffering or an increase in pleasure in people's lives. The problem is scale. The problem is that people work within gigantic organizations in processes that can last so long that people lose the thread. Um, let's think about football. How long is a football game? 90 minutes, right? It's not a surprise that a game is 90 minutes, because we like relatively short spans. Um, uh, it, it's more exciting, it's more engaging for us if something's 90 minutes. If you imagine a, a football game that lasts seven years, that's not gonna be a very interesting football game. And also, it doesn't take place on one pitch. It takes place on 140 pitches and it lasts seven years, and you're never quite sure of the goal. The goal will be announced in seven years, but by that time, you might be dead. That's not gonna be an exciting football match. Um, and the analogy there is with- with certain modern businesses. Let's say multinational corporation, you're working for a multinational corporation, you're making a product, it'll be launched in seven years, it's- it's the work of 10,000 people, you're one bit of that, and you lose the thread. You don't know what you're doing. Which is why many modern businesses, uh, spend, invest quite a lot of time in what they call storytelling and other such things to try and remind people of what the point is, the- the, why they're getting up in the morning. There is a point, but it's almost, well, who wants to say an artistic problem? The- the point is hard to hold onto, because it doesn't enter the imagination, um, uh, you know, in a- in a kind of suitable way.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings33:57

        Is this why we have missions, companies have missions, you know? It could be Facebook, you know, I think it was to connect the world.

    15. ABAlain de Botton34:04

        Mm-hmm.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings34:04

        Zoom is, you know, to make everyone happier.

    17. ABAlain de Botton34:06

        Sure.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings34:06

        Terrible mission there. Is that why we have missions, to give meaning to those who-

    19. ABAlain de Botton34:10

        Well, I think it's why we have mission statements, because, because the- the- the mission is maybe lodged in the CEO's mind, but it's- it's dropped out of- out of everybody else's mind. And I think what's fascinating is if you ask people who work in large organizations, "What's your fantasy job?" I once did this. And the answers are extraordinary, 'cause people will say things like, I mean, I remember the top answers I got once when I asked people, uh, were to, um, run a B&B, um, you know, to retire and run a B&B, a bed and breakfast somewhere. Um, or quite a lot of fantasies around small shops, like sandwich shops, bakeries, et cetera.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings34:43

        Why is that, extreme ownership?

    21. ABAlain de Botton34:44

        Any, anyone who's, anyone who's run a bakery or- or run a B&B knows that it's not a walk in the park. I mean, it can be meaningful, but it's also pretty exhausting and- and pretty tiring. The margins are small, et cetera. So- so why- why these fantasies exist? I think because they are examples of work where the benefits of your labor are very apparent to you on a fairly quick time scale. Someone comes in, they're hungry, there's a loaf of bread, you give it to them, they have a nice, um, uh, slice of bread, and they walk out, and you think, "Yeah, I've, you know, I've done it." Um, so- so it takes care of the sort of time and scale problem that otherwise afflicts many people in, um, you know... And this is, by the way, let's also remember, this is the problem with modernity. This is the problem that Adam Smith identified. If you remember, you know, Adam Smith's great insight, 1776, is the division of labor leads to increased profitability. In other words, if everybody does a bit of a task, um, the outcome will be hugely more productive than if someone tries to do every bit of a task. The problem with that is that if you divide labor, you're also dividing meaning.So there is meaning in the organization, but there's not meaning in the individual soul of everyone in- in- on the production line, as it were. And, um, I think that explains the nostalgia for pre-modern forms of work, like running a bakery, where you can own more of the production process, uh, from production to consumption and which provides, as I say, this sort of almost artistic satisfaction of I can see how I have changed someone's life through my labor where, which many, many people can no longer see.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings36:15

        One of the most challenging things about venture capital-

    23. ABAlain de Botton36:17

        Mm-hmm.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings36:18

        ... is it takes so long.

    25. ABAlain de Botton36:20

        Mm-hmm.

    26. HSHarry Stebbings36:20

        It is the seven-year football game, except-

    27. ABAlain de Botton36:22

        Yeah.

    28. HSHarry Stebbings36:22

        ... it's not actually. It's 12 years. It's 15 years.

    29. ABAlain de Botton36:25

        Right.

    30. HSHarry Stebbings36:25

        You might not be at that company. You might not be alive.
12. 39:57 – 45:38

    “Do What You’re Good At, Cause It’s Too Hard To Know What You Love”

    1. ABAlain de Botton39:57

       et cetera. So-

    2. HSHarry Stebbings39:57

       I was once told-

    3. ABAlain de Botton39:59

       Yeah.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings39:59

       ... do what you're good at-

    5. ABAlain de Botton40:00

       Mm-hmm.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings40:01

       ... because it's too hard to know what you love.

    7. ABAlain de Botton40:03

       (laughs) That's a very good one, yes.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings40:05

       Do you think that's good advice?

    9. ABAlain de Botton40:07

       Um, but-

    10. HSHarry Stebbings40:07

        And you'll learn to love what you're good at. (laughs)

    11. ABAlain de Botton40:09

        But even that is very hard. What are you good at? You know, it's not necessarily very obvious what- what someone is good at. Um, I- I would say it's as hard to figure out what- what you're good at as it is almost as- as it is to- to know what- what you love. So, I think that what we've got to do, I, the way I, the way I think about it is that I think in all of us there's what you might call our true self, a kind of, a true summary of kind of who we are, where we wanna go to, et cetera. That true self is like a vase that's been smashed inside us and there's just shards of pottery everywhere. And everyone's goal is to try and reassemble it and find out what it was, what it, what its shape actually is. But most of the time, all we see is tiny fragments. And so if you apply that analogy to- to the workplace, you know, many people, especially when they're young and they enter the workplace, and you say to them, "What are you interested in?" They go, "I don't know." In order to assemble an accurate picture of what- what you- you wanna do, try and collect every moment where there is a kind of little beep of interest or a, you know, the temperature rises 'cause you're thinking, yeah, I like that. You know, I often advise people to say, keep a, keep a di- diary, keep a journal. At the end of every day, e- every working day, try and identify something that you really liked. What was the, what was your peak moment that day? And it might be, you know, I don't know, I had a conversation about something. Right? You've gotta w- write it down and then you have to analyze it. Well, what- what do you think it was within that moment of pleasure? And often there's lots of, lots of possible answers. You know, it's 'cause we were in the kitchen. Uh, is th- was it really because you were in the kitchen that you had that moment? Uh, actually, no, the kitchen's not really important. Oh, okay, right, it wasn't. Oh, I was talking to my mum. Okay, was it, was it really important that it was your mum? No. No, it was, it was that we were talking about, you know, whatever it is. So you can try and refine till you get to a kind of-... golden ore, or O-R-E, of- of- of a kind of substance that is, that as it- as, uh, th- as, as it were, your true working identity. But you have to assemble it, and it takes a hugely long time. And so for many people, they don't get there ever. Um, I know many people who are coming up for retirement and, you know, they've- they've worked hard all their life, and then they go, "Yeah, I'd- I'd like to do something, you know, for me now." And you think, "Oh, okay, well, you know, who are you?" And then they go, "I don't really know 'cause I've just been so busy and I don't really know who I am or what I enjoy," or- or anything like this.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings42:25

        Do you know what I, I ask the most people, 'cause I have a lot of, like, students ask me 'cause they started so young-

    13. ABAlain de Botton42:29

        Mm-hmm.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings42:30

        ... um, basically 12, um, and I always say, "What do you do when you have a day off-

    15. ABAlain de Botton42:34

        Mm-hmm.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings42:34

        ... completely to yourself?" "Oh, I love going into expensive stores." "Why do you love it?" "It's the way they make me feel." "Well, how do they make you feel?"

    17. ABAlain de Botton42:42

        Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings42:42

        "Oh, they make you feel appreciated and loved." "Well, maybe, like, five star hotels and premium hospitality could be interesting."

    19. ABAlain de Botton42:49

        Exactly. That's- that's why the world can suddenly open up. What you've just described now, very beautifully, is- is a process of inquiry which opens up doors. You know, imagine a company that's saying, "We don't know what products we should be making," and you go, "Okay. Well, all right. Well, where- where did you start? What- what- what's- what's at the core?" And they might say, you know, "We're in filing cabinets." "Okay. All right. So what do- what is it about a filing cabinet?" "Well, it's about bringing order to things." "Okay. So maybe this is a company about bringing order to things. So let's look at other things you might bring order to. Okay, you might bring order to car parking. Oh, all right. Okay. So there's actually a link between filing and car parking, 'cause it's all about introducing box-like things into a space. So maybe you need to expand into car parks and as a logical, you know, thing." And they go, "Oh, yeah. Right." So suddenly, you can extend it. So what we know as, I guess, brand extension or brand definition has got a- an analogy in- in individual life as well.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings43:39

        There are so many people who feel like they aren't doing work that isn't meaningful to them-

    21. ABAlain de Botton43:42

        Mm-hmm.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings43:43

        ... but I'm paid a salary.

    23. ABAlain de Botton43:45

        Yeah.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings43:45

        I have rent.

    25. ABAlain de Botton43:46

        Yeah.

    26. HSHarry Stebbings43:46

        I have obligations, and I am scared to do something about it. What does one say to them?

    27. ABAlain de Botton43:53

        Start very young, I would say. Start very, very young, because the younger you are, the fewer risks there are. Um, it gets much, much harder to- to risk things when you get in, especially when you have a family. So try and get the early, uh, try and- try and get the risk done, you know, pretty early. Um, you know, fail- fail a lot when you're very, very young. Um-

    28. HSHarry Stebbings44:13

        I always say I- I was never... People call me an entrepreneur. I was never an entrepreneur 'cause I started when I was 18 living in a house in Fulham, and if it didn't really work-

    29. ABAlain de Botton44:19

        Yeah.

    30. HSHarry Stebbings44:19

        ... I was still living in a house in Fulham-
13. 45:38 – 49:20

    Thoughts on Remote Work

    1. ABAlain de Botton45:38

       and mission.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings45:39

       I feel meaninglessness is increased in a world of remote work, when you are sitting at home with a laptop in your kitchen every day, not talking to anyone.

    3. ABAlain de Botton45:47

       Mm-hmm.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings45:47

       How do you feel about remote work?

    5. ABAlain de Botton45:49

       Coming back to my football analogy, so not just- not just football over seven years in 150 countries, but it's like you have to go and sit at home, uh, without a football screen, and you have to remember what it was like to be on a football pitch. Well, that's gonna be really hard. You have to remember the office-

    6. HSHarry Stebbings46:04

       This is the crappiest game of football I've ever played. (laughs)

    7. ABAlain de Botton46:05

       Yeah, you have to remember the office, as it were. And so, so that's really, really hard. So it- it further alienates people from their sense of, y- you know, where- where are they? But- but that said, there are many people who are actually quite, you know, well-motivated. They can see the goal. They don't need a reminder of their colleague. They- they've got the colleagues in their heads. They don't need to see the building. They don't need to see the logo. They don't need to see a d- a particular kind of desk, because it's all in their heads already, and they can do it. So they could be by the beach. They could be in the shower. It doesn't matter because they can see it all. And for those people, arguably, uh, remote working is very good because it enables them to, you know, work without distraction, et cetera, et cetera. And I- I speak as a remote worker myself.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings46:51

       I don't know if there's a reason for... I find it especially more challenging for younger people.

    9. ABAlain de Botton46:56

       Yeah.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings46:56

        I- I think they lack meaning more when it's... The- they don't have the children maybe, where it's a big benefit to have that time. But also, like, they struggle a lot more in remote work, I find.

    11. ABAlain de Botton47:05

        Yes. I mean, maybe it becomes harder for them to think, um... I mean, literally, you know, same thing, that m- m- identity crises are often associated with the younger end of- of- of the spectrum. It's like, "Who am I?" Well, there's a kind of, there's a working identity crisis that can be spurred by remote working, which is, you know, "I trained as an accountant. I took the exams. I'm now part of a- a- a gigantic accounting firm, et cetera. But now it's 12 o'clock, and I've been in my room and I'm very far from anyone. And actually, who am I? Uh, am I an accountant or am I not just a sort of nebulous bit of biological matter on a spinning rock and I don't really know where, you know, what's going on anymore?" And- and you- you, as it were, lose the plot. Literally, you lose the plot.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings47:47

        You said something brilliant once about office work, and I- I really just wanted to get the quote right, which is, "One of the most welcome aspects of office work is that you do not need to be fully yourself."

    13. ABAlain de Botton47:57

        Yes. I mean, look, sometimes people talk about, um-... professional identities as being very fake, and that that's a problem. And the office is seen as a place of, um, uh, inauthenticity, as opposed to private life where you can really be yourself. But let's also remember that sometimes people have spent, m- a concentrated period with their friends and family, normally a family of Christmas or whatever, um, they may be aching to get back to work because the true self of themselves and of those around them is just slightly unbearable. Um, and they're longing for, um, the relief that comes with inauthenticity. When somebody says, "How are you?" And you go, "I'm fine," it's not true, but thank goodness you can get away with that answer because the truth is so complicated, so arduous, your own truth and the other person's truth, that- that it might just be not just a lie, but a welcome, um, a welcome superficiality.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings48:59

        It's so funny though 'cause it seems like we've seen the demonization of superficiality as this terrible thing, like how you find-

    15. ABAlain de Botton49:04

        Sure, I- I look in many ways it, in some ways, in some context it is, but let's also remember some of the joys of superficiality. It's like, I'm not gonna get to know your soul, you're not gonna get to know mine, but we'll have a fairly nice time on the surface, and then we'll part, and that's okay.

14. 49:20 – 53:08

    Should You Bring Your Full Self to Work?

    1. ABAlain de Botton49:20

       That could be okay.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings49:21

       One thing I really struggle with managing teams today is should you bring your full self to work?

    3. ABAlain de Botton49:25

       I don't think you should bring your full self anywhere because if we really think about what your full self is, it includes, you know, infantile bits of you, bits of you when you were two, bits of you that are full of rage, bits of you that are full of envy and bitterness and confusion and et cetera, and things that are really very arduous to- to put in front of other people. So, I think the notion of- of being yourself is a really, you know, I know there's a lot of sympathy if somebody's in a relationship and, or been in a relationship, and then- and then they say to their friends, you know, "I had to end the relation. I had to get out because, you know, I wasn't- I wasn't being seen for who I really am." And you wanna go, "Okay, I- I kind of get your point, but is it- is it always a good idea to be seen for who you really are?" Um, I think a really loving perspective on somebody is to say, is to think, "I can see who this person wants to be. I can see who this person aims to be, and I'm gonna focus on that, not necessarily who they are at all points." Um, and one can slightly be a bit deaf or a bit blind, sh- should be, um, uh, to certain aspects that are perhaps true, but, um, uncomfortably so, and one might want to glance over.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings50:32

       There are elements like, I'm getting divorced-

    5. ABAlain de Botton50:35

       Mm-hmm.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings50:35

       ... my mother's ill-

    7. ABAlain de Botton50:36

       Mm-hmm.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings50:36

       Should you- should you bring that into the office with you and we embrace you as a professional support mechanism as well? Um-

    9. ABAlain de Botton50:43

       Mm-hmm.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings50:44

        Or actually is it a professional and personal? I can't quite under- understand that as a manager.

    11. ABAlain de Botton50:49

        I think we're terribly cut up about what we're doing when we come to work. Is this a family? Is this a friendship group? Is this-

    12. HSHarry Stebbings50:58

        Is it a team-

    13. ABAlain de Botton50:59

        ... you know, whatever, um-

    14. HSHarry Stebbings50:59

        ... where you're dropped?

    15. ABAlain de Botton51:00

        And- and I think that, I think it's probably more honest and therefore more effective to think, well, there are many kinds of association between human beings. The association known as the office or the factory, um, or the workplace, is an association with a very particular end in mind, which is to produce a goods or a service, uh, probably at a profit, uh, within a certain timeframe, with a certain kind of disciplines. That's what we're here to do. And once you know that that's what we're here to do, you know, helps to answer the question, well, your mother's died, okay, so how does- how does that fit in with this other goal? Now, we know that if somebody is not shown any compassion or any mercy by those they work around, they're not gonna be interested in working. They're not- they're not gonna be motivated, they're not gonna- not gonna feel they want to be there. So it's y- y- you know, the recognition of someone's humanity belongs to, um, uh, is part of, um, a- a- a workplace ideology. But then we're still, we're s- we're r- we're remembering why we're here. Ultimately, we're here to produce a goods or a service at some sort of profit margin. It's like if you were running a swimming team at school and you've got your mate who wants to come on the swimming team, and you wanna say, "Look, I really like you, but if I let you into the swimming team, we're gonna lose the race. Not because you're a bad person, but because you can't swim very well."

    16. HSHarry Stebbings52:18

        (laughs)

    17. ABAlain de Botton52:18

        And- and that's a different project to the project of friendship. So, it has some overlap with the project of friendship, but it is a different project. And in- in this instance, you don't belong to the team because the, because you will undermine the team. And I think that's, you know, people get terribly... When companies start talking about loving their employees and being a family, et cetera, and then they got to lay them off, what's going on there? What do they, what- what have they, what have they done? They've- they've- they've tied themselves in a knot. They've- they've borrowed the language of private life in order to foster a short-term sense of togetherness, um, and they've forgotten that they are not in fact a family. They're very different from a family. Families don't lay people off. And if they'd remembered what they actually were, which is an association of people coming together for make a profit, um, that would have led to greater coherence in their messages to

15. 53:08 – 54:31

    Hiring Your Family Member

    1. ABAlain de Botton53:08

       their team.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings53:09

       How do you feel when I say, a family member working with another family member?

    3. ABAlain de Botton53:14

       You mean a family-run business or-

    4. HSHarry Stebbings53:15

       Yeah.

    5. ABAlain de Botton53:15

       ... family business?

    6. HSHarry Stebbings53:16

       So I- I hire my brother or-

    7. ABAlain de Botton53:18

       Okay.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings53:18

       ... I hire my sister.

    9. ABAlain de Botton53:20

       Yeah. Yeah. Well, look, I mean the way I see it is that, um, when you hire family members, you're almost always not hiring the very best at the level of talent. Um, because if you really want the very best talent, you probably throw it open to lots and lots of people, and it's unlikely that your brother or sister or mother or son or whatever is going to be the person who, you know, really out-competes everybody else in a certain technical skill. But you're getting something else, which is quite hard to define. You're getting unbelievable loyalty, and that's worth something. I mean, you could, you know, depending on the job, you could almost calibrate it. Um, you're getting loyalty. You're- you're- you're trading, um-... pure excellence, it's skill for loyalty. And depending on the business and the area and et cetera, um, you might find that that's a good trade-off. That's a good trade-off because the person's not gonna leave suddenly, um, they're gonna plug away at it for lots and lots of time. Their interests and yours are gonna be fully aligned, et cetera. And that's worth a lot, you know, 'cause you get a whiz kid who is not really aligned with your values, they're only there for five minutes, they're gonna shaft you, et cetera. Well, maybe it would've been better to have your uncle, who's not now too bright, but, you know, he's very nice and he's really on your side.

16. 54:31 – 1:01:48

    Capitalism’s Role in The Modern World

    1. ABAlain de Botton54:31

    2. HSHarry Stebbings54:31

       Um, speaking of workplace ideology, and I'm intrigued to hear how you feel about capitalism and capitalism's role in the modern world today.

    3. ABAlain de Botton54:38

       Do you have a small question?

    4. HSHarry Stebbings54:40

       Mm-hmm.

    5. ABAlain de Botton54:40

       I mean, look-

    6. HSHarry Stebbings54:40

       (laughs)

    7. ABAlain de Botton54:41

       ... I think, I think that, um, when we think about this, we've got to look at the demand side of capitalism. Um, governments are always keen to pump up demand, aren't they? Um, we hear a lot about injecting liquidity into the economy and making sure that demand is, is, is steady. Um, what never gets talked about in mainstream economics, for, you know, we understand the reasons why, um, but it doesn't get talked about, is the quality of demand. Um, from a purely economic perspective, it doesn't matter if people are buying psychotherapy lessons or buying handguns. Same thing for the economy. It's, you know, the economy will grow. It doesn't matter what the product or service is, what matters is the, the kind of, um, um, the, the, the energy that, with which it's being consumed. Um, and this leads to serious problems that, that, that's, this is the, this is the neutral, or if you wanna be more, you know, hard, hard-lined about this, the amorality of capitalism, it's not interested in human ends. It doesn't really, it doesn't really posit... Or, the, it, it places an enormous faith in the wisdom of each individual to choose the ways in which they spend their money and optimize their happiness. And we know from extreme examples like gambling that if you leave a person to decide on their ends without any assistance, well, you, you get some quite bad decisions. Um, and we know this from our own lives. We're always spending money quite badly. Capitalism doesn't care about that 'cause it doesn't mi- it doesn't matter if you spend it badly. There's no such thing as spending badly. There's only spending or not spending. And this is where the individual in capitalism, you know, has really got difficulties because I think a good life isn't just about spending money, it's about spending money wisely. And a li- and what we mean by wisely is in line with your eudaimonic goals, in line with your flourishing. Um, and it's terribly hard to know what we should be spending our money on. And there's a giant industry we call advertising, which is all about trying to h-hijack your desires, your unformed desires and say, "You know that sort of slightly low feeling that you've got this afternoon? It's because you don't have this car." And it's like, "Oh, yes, that's right."

    8. HSHarry Stebbings56:51

       (laughs)

    9. ABAlain de Botton56:51

       "I'm low because I don't have this car."

    10. HSHarry Stebbings56:53

        (laughs)

    11. ABAlain de Botton56:53

        And so what you end up with is... I mean, I remember this years ago, there was a, um, a, uh, uh, an advert called Bacardi. It was for Bacardi and it, and, and the strap line was it showed, showed a group of really happy people, like, smiling, hugging, and it said, "Bacardi and friends." Uh, and it was a whole thing about Bacardi and friendship. So, you look at that advert and you think, you know, the emotional part of you is tweaking at the word "friends." Um, but, you know, y- they also know that, (coughs) sorry, that what's really, um, gonna drive you is, is, is the alcohol. And so you'll end up in your room with a giant crate of Bacardi, swi- and no friends. The thing you wanted was the friend, the thing you got was the drink. And that's what advertising does brilliantly. It shows us one thing that we really need and it ties it up with something that we might desire but probably don't need at all. And therefore sets us on the wrong track, which is why advertisers are, are brilliant at showing us happy families and sexy people and, um, happiness, et cetera, 'cause he knows that those are the things we really want.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings57:48

        You mentioned gambling, the thrill. They often show the excitement-

    13. ABAlain de Botton57:52

        (coughs)

    14. HSHarry Stebbings57:52

        ... the, the, the spinning of the roulette wheel and the euphoria. Totally agree. Is there anything that should change then in terms of advertising, if you had a magic wand?

    15. ABAlain de Botton58:01

        Really what advertising should do is to give us a more, um, honest, um, definition of what bit of the human, of human suffering it's actually able to solve. So in other words, the watch is not gonna solve your love life. So, to show a p- a couple having a happy dinner, that's not right because it's, it's, there's nothing about that watch and a happy dinner. There's no connection at all. So please don't connect it. And the audience should be trained, you know, should be taught how to decode these adverts so that we don't fall for these things 'cause we do. We fall extraordinarily. You know, we, we buy a bar of soap because that soap has been magically associated with calm and order. Now calm and order are fantastic things. There's very little relationship between th- this fancy soap and calm and order. Um, really what you should be doing is probably taking a philosophy class, but it's not-

    16. HSHarry Stebbings58:49

        But it is not an inherent bug of capitalism because there's no way I'm going to show my Bacardi with a student sitting alone in sadness in the dark. (laughs)

    17. ABAlain de Botton58:57

        Well, Harry, let me, let me take an optimistic view. So the pessimistic view of capitalism is, uh, we cannot possibly have an economy that flourishes while addressing people's true needs 'cause everybody would just stay home and not buy anything. Um, and so therefore, the only way in which we can get a flourishing economy is to sort of con people into buying things they don't really need at a, at a highly accelerated rate. I don't think that's true. I think that that is too pessimistic. I think there are constantly things that are missing from our lives that are both genuine and for which a business could be invented. Every time encounter any kind of unhappiness, you're encountering, uh, something that's a business idea that might not have come to fruition. So, sometimes people go, you know, "Capitalism's finished. We've got everything we need." N- we haven't. I mean, run through an average day. Go through an average day and think of all the things that are missing. Literally try and keep a note. Everything that's missing in your life at, uh, course of an average day. So you wake up in the morning and you're hungry so you go to the kitchen and you have 17 kinds of breakfast cereal. That suggests that probably you should not become an entrepreneur of breakfast cereals 'cause we kind of got enough, and so that's not, not great. But a minute later, your partner comes in and they say something in a slightly aggressive tone and you're put into a slightly strange mood. And, and so 10 minutes later, you're actually-... kind of annoyed and you're, you're kind of upset. Hmm, business idea there. Well, what's the business idea? Well, the business idea is that there's something in relationships that really causes us pain, much more than the pain of not having granola with extra fiber, is really in acute pain and we haven't got a solution. So, that's an entrepreneurial challenge. And what's the solution? Well, I don't know. Maybe we need another book or we need another film or we need a service or we need an app or we need a brain implant or whatever. This is the, this is the genius of entrepreneurs. But there's a genuine problem that is there. And so, a capitalism worthy of its title and worthy of esteem is one which accurately engages with people's sincere problems and makes those the drivers of profit, rather than aiming to derive profits from things that are disconnected from genuine sources of unhappiness.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:57

        Do you think venture capitalists have a moral responsibility than to fund the genuine problems-

    19. ABAlain de Botton1:01:03

        (clears throat)

    20. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:03

        ... and not the ones which prey on human weakness?

    21. ABAlain de Botton1:01:06

        Um-

    22. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:06

        Mobile gaming, in particular, would be one, for instance. Mobile gaming, uh, gambling. Y- you could name any number.

    23. ABAlain de Botton1:01:12

        Look, I'd say moral loosely but, but I think certainly their lives would be more meaningful, their souls will be happier, um, and, uh, and ultimately, life should be more, more fun and interesting too if they're able to identify genuine problems and help us solve genuine problems. I mean, the people in business who I've met who are most satisfied are those who can stand back after and go, "It's fantastic. We solved some genuine problems." We didn't just sell, you know, bubble gum to the under-eights, you know, and they didn't need it-

    24. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:40

        (laughs)

    25. ABAlain de Botton1:01:40

        ... and it wasn't gonna help. Or, or we set up a chain of casinos. I mean, that, that's, there's something, yeah, it's gonna make money, but, um, it can make money but it's exploiting

17. 1:01:48 – 1:03:19

    Can Everyone Be an Entrepreneur?

    1. ABAlain de Botton1:01:48

       human ignorance.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:49

       We've been told everyone can be an entrepreneur.

    3. ABAlain de Botton1:01:51

       Mm-hmm.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:51

       Do you believe everyone is an entrepreneur or do you think entrepreneurs are born?

    5. ABAlain de Botton1:01:55

       It depends on how you define the word entrepreneur. I think that entrepreneurial opportunity, uh, and to be able to see entrepreneurial opportunity is, is a faculty that e- exists in a latent form inside everybody. Whether it's then developed is a, is a different thing. But I think really what we mean by this is, is an interest in solving new problems, solving problems. And, uh, you know, the entrepreneurs I've met are relentless at identifying and thinking in-depth about things that have not yet been solved. I know, of course, that there's many bits of the entrepreneurial puzzle and very often people we call entrepreneurs are really one-half of a, of a team. Um, there might be lots of other people. And, um, they might be the visionary person but there's an accountant somewhere in the background, there's a people person somewhere in the background, et cetera, and they make the thing work. So, often what we mean by that sort of basic stage of entrepreneurism is it's, it's, it is a, uh, a visionary thing where you see... It's a kind of utopian vision. It's like how should the world be, not what is it like now. What should the world be? And, you know, it could be many things. What should the world be like in a state agency? What should the world be like in the world of, I don't know, um, shoes to take to the beach or whatever it is. But you're, you're sort of seeing a, um, a, a version of a world that doesn't yet exist.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:13

       Would you consider yourself an entrepreneur?

    7. ABAlain de Botton1:03:15

       I've started some ventures.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:16

       Yeah.

    9. ABAlain de Botton1:03:16

       And so in that sense, yes. Yes, I would see myself as one.

18. 1:03:19 – 1:11:41

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. ABAlain de Botton1:03:19

    2. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:19

       I'd love to do a quick-fire with you, if that's okay?

    3. ABAlain de Botton1:03:21

       Yes. Go for it.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:22

       Um, so what makes a great leader?

    5. ABAlain de Botton1:03:25

       I think a great leader is someone who has got a sense of what they're trying to do because everything flows from that and why they're trying to do it. So, all the other things that we associate with good leadership, management, et cetera, flows ultimately from a knowledge, a, a really secure hold on what it is that you're trying to do. And as we, you know, we've spoken so much today about, um, how, how hard it is to keep your objectives properly in focus. A good leader's got those objectives in focus.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:52

       What did you believe that you now no longer believe?

    7. ABAlain de Botton1:03:56

       I think life reveals itself to be ever more complicated. Um, so I think I used to think that, you know, you climb up the top of the mountain and then that's it. But I think life shows you that there's always another peak. So, um-

    8. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:07

       Is there not joy in that?

    9. ABAlain de Botton1:04:10

       No. It's-

    10. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:10

        (laughs)

    11. ABAlain de Botton1:04:13

        ... it's a bore. (laughs)

    12. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:13

        (laughs)

    13. ABAlain de Botton1:04:13

        Um-

    14. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:13

        Would it not be dissatisfying if you reached the peak and you're sitting on the top with your sandwiches?

    15. ABAlain de Botton1:04:17

        It depends. It depends what we're talking about. But, um, um, I, I think life's capacity to spring ever more of its puzzles is, it can be slightly exhausting at points.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:28

        (laughs) How did becoming a father change you?

    17. ABAlain de Botton1:04:30

        I think it gave me, um, an upfront perspective on, um, what human beings are like in their very fragile beginnings. And I think that, you know, we, we, we remember our own childhoods but only partially and colored by all sorts of local things. Um, and then we get to meet other adults normally. Um, so to see what a human being is like, as it were, in its i- infantile form gives you tremendous insight also into what's going on inside adults. Because inside every adult is a child. And so to sort of, you know, to follow someone's journey from the day they're born to adulthood just gives you an unbelievable, um, sort of store of, of psychological knowledge, really.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings1:05:14

        Without sounding strange-

    19. ABAlain de Botton1:05:15

        Mm-hmm.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings1:05:15

        ... I actually think to some of your advice every single day. You said on Christa's, uh, On Being-

    21. ABAlain de Botton1:05:20

        Mm-hmm.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings1:05:20

        ... uh, you need to infantilize your partner and I actually think you need to infantilize many more people in life around you in terms of a seven-year-old, "Oh, they're tired. They haven't eaten." That-

    23. ABAlain de Botton1:05:29

        Yeah.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings1:05:29

        ... "They're annoyed." And you need to do that with your partner too. And it's not, "Oh, what a horrible person," whatever.

    25. ABAlain de Botton1:05:34

        Yeah.

    26. HSHarry Stebbings1:05:35

        And that has changed how I interact with the world.

    27. ABAlain de Botton1:05:38

        Many of the moves we need to make around children are also moves we need to make around adults. Um, and it's not being patronizing to think that. It's actually honoring what human being is like, which is a, a fascinating conglomerate of the child and the adult.... and, and I think ultimately we know that we have to be patient and forgiving towards children. We kind of know that. Whereas we're constantly forgetting it around, um, a- a- a- around our fellow adults. Which is why it's so moving, for example, to see a- a fellow adult sleeping, because you think, "Oh." W- when you all see the ch- you always see the child, someone's sleeping, someone falls asleep in a train next to you, and you think, "Goodness me, this middle-aged person, I can see the child in them." And they're always there.

    28. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:16

        What would you do if you knew you would not fail?

    29. ABAlain de Botton1:06:18

        If I knew I wouldn't fail? Um, well, as we're talking about entrepreneurial things, I think there are some wonderful entrepreneurial ideas that are scary primarily because they may, you know, they may not work out. So, I'd love to build a retreat center, um, somewhere in which people can come and, um, you know, do in-depth work on themselves. Probably it should be in a place like Majorca or, you know, an- an- an island, a beautiful island. And, um, and- and it should have lots of bedrooms and be a kind of modern version of a monastery. So, that's what one should do if one knew one couldn't fail.

    30. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:49

        Why would you not do that? You could get funding for it in seconds.

Episode duration: 1:11:42