Alex Bouaziz: How We Became a $12B HR Company with 2,000 Remote Employees | 20VC #973

1. 0:00 – 0:29

   Intro

   1. ABAlex Bouaziz0:00

      It's always hard to hire specifically at our scale, right? We have 2,000 people across 100 countries. But hiring globally gives you a bigger pool of people to hire great talent. (instrumental music plays)

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:08

      Alex, I am so excited to make this happen. I met you first, like, years ago when you were starting Deal. So first, thank you so much for joining me today, my friend.

   3. ABAlex Bouaziz0:16

      Well, thank you so much for having me. I've been looking forward doing this with you for a while.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:20

      Oh, so have I. And I mean, what incredible numbers you posted the other day. I looked at them and I was like, "Holy shit." (laughs) Um, but I wanna go back a little bit.

2. 0:29 – 2:20

   Founding Story of Deel

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:29

      So take me back. Founding moment, when did you decide that Deal was what you wanted to spend the next 10, 15 years of your life on?

   2. ABAlex Bouaziz0:36

      Yeah, I mean, you know, the quick background on myself and Shuo, and you should talk to her at some point, is we ... You know, we're both international people. I grew up in France, she grew up in China, moved to the US, and I lived in Israel and a few other places. Uh, we met back at MIT and we kind of diverted. She went and built a company that eventually was acquired by iRobots and then Amazon. I went to start a PhD in the UK actually. It was a great experience, uh, but, you know, it wasn't really for me, so I started building companies. And, you know, throughout my whole career, I kinda had the luxury to meet amazing people from all over the world, right? And clearly show that where you're from definitely impacts the type of oppor- opportunities you have. Like, you know, you created your own opportunities, but if you would have been in the Bay Area, it would have maybe been a lot easier even for you, right? So ...

   3. HSHarry Stebbings1:19

      Yeah. And, and, and still had, still had access to computers because of my schooling in the UK. If I was in poorer countries and educated in poorer countries, I wouldn't have had that, so totally.

   4. ABAlex Bouaziz1:27

      For sure, sure. So the idea of ... You know, when we started our first companies, I ... Well, first I couldn't afford engineers in Israel 'cause they're so bloody expensive, right? So I had to find amazing people in locations where I could actually, uh, be able to pay the bills at the end of the month, and, uh, you know, hired a few people in the Ukraine, in Serbia, in the UK. And actually most of them are still at Deal today, Right? For the iterations of companies that we built together. But yeah, for me it was kind of always obvious. Like, you know, the world is a very big place. It's all about working with the best people wherever they are, rather than being limited to a 20 miles radius. And that's really what Deal is all about, right? Like, helping you go global.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings2:02

      I, I totally agree with you. I mentioned to you before the show, we have people in South Korea and Colombia in each Deal for 20VC.

   6. ABAlex Bouaziz2:07

      Yeah.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings2:07

      Uh, I, I, I do want to ask, you know, when you think about navigating the idea maze and choosing what you wanna work on ... I remember speaking to Tarik at Kalshi before the show about kind of very early, um, uh, iterations, let's just say, of Deal's idea stage.

3. 2:20 – 5:54

   Advice to Founders Getting Started

   1. HSHarry Stebbings2:20

      He said, "What advice would you give to founders on navigating the idea maze and choosing what idea to focus on?"

   2. ABAlex Bouaziz2:26

      If you look at what we got into Y Combinator in 2019 with the idea we started, um, the concept was very similar, right? Like, we wanted to help freelancers at the time get hired and paid by the best companies, and we thought the problem we were solving was around the trust, right? Of two different parties being in two different countries. That ended up being wrong, right? Like, the problem being more around the compliance of working with that person and not understanding their local compliance and all of this. So, what I would say and what we're really good at, I think, with Shuo, is just trying things and, and doing it very fast, right? Like, just executing on something, seeing if it works, and then being very realistic with ourself. Like, "It's not good enough, let's just, you know, not do it anymore." And actually this is a trap that we almost fell in, right? Like, when we were at YC they have this thing where they do, like, group office hours and everybody presents, like, what they've been working on for the last two weeks. And, like, you're always enticed to say, like, "Oh, we grew X or we did that and we did that." And everybody around you is doing the same thing to kind of, like, show off a little bit. Uh, and then you end up thinking, "Hey, I'm not doing too bad." When when you actually look at what you do, right? When you go from, like, one user to two user, right, 100% growth, great, but nothing actually happened also.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings3:30

      Man, I've had so many investor updates which are literally like that. 200% growth, you're like, "Wow, we've made $12."

   4. ABAlex Bouaziz3:36

      (laughs) Well, it's ... I mean, you know, it's very rewarding as an entrepreneur, but at the same time you need to think about it, like you said, right, you're gonna be working on that for the next five to 10 years. Like, is this what, one, you want to work on? Is this something you're truly passionate about? But more importantly, are you being true to yourself? Is this gonna be really big? And if the answer, you know, is no, it's okay. Like, sometimes it feels like everybody's looking at you, everybody, like, checks everything you do, every launch you do, but most of the time no one truly cares, right? And they forget the next hour or the day after, right? So you just-

   5. HSHarry Stebbings4:04

      I said this to someone the other day. I said, "Yeah, you've gotta remember, no one actually gives a shit about you." And it's not you, it's about you as well and me.

   6. ABAlex Bouaziz4:12

      Not you. 100%.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings4:12

      Everyone's focused on their own lives.

   8. ABAlex Bouaziz4:14

      Siblings, you know, they care, but, like, you know, the guys on Product Hunter Twitter, they, they don't, right? And you can relist like 10 times, no one will even notice.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings4:23

      Totally. Can I ask, Alex, we, we chatted before the show, we've chatted many times before. You're 29, I'm 26. Um, you know, obviously Deal's a great success now, uh, and on the path to being an incredible company. Did you always feel growing up that you would be successful? When I was younger, I had this inevitability of success. I always felt it. I didn't know how. (laughs) Luckily, that, it worked. But did you know?

   10. ABAlex Bouaziz4:46

       I mean, I don't, I, I don't think I would have been able to define what success was when I was younger, but, um, I knew that I wanted to build great products, I knew I wanted to build great things. Like, I never really fitted the mold of whether it's, like, not making it through interviews or, uh, not really, you know, being excited to work at any large companies. I knew I wanted to build, right? And I mean, luckily, I come from a family of entrepreneurs as well, so it kind of runs in my blood a little bit. So, again, I don't know what success f- ... I don't know how I would have defined success ac- you know, when I was a bit younger, but, uh, I knew I definitely wanted to do bigger things.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings5:21

       Did you fit in at school?

   12. ABAlex Bouaziz5:23

       So, the funny part is I actually skipped two classes when I was younger. Um, so I actually, like, got my International Baccalaureate, right, like, the French Baccalaureate at 17.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings5:31

       Yeah.

   14. ABAlex Bouaziz5:32

       Not 18. (laughs) So, I had a really great experience at school 'cause I was always the baby of the class, I was always two years under, and everyone around me felt like I was their responsibility. So, I didn't fit in in the way that ... You know, I couldn't go out with most of my friends 'cause they were much older, but they really, like, made me feel like a, you know, their little brothers throughout, throughout school. I was in a boys school only, so that feeling was really,

4. 5:54 – 10:25

   Speed of Execution

   1. ABAlex Bouaziz5:54

      really great.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings5:54

      Listen, you mentioned the speed of execution being so important there. I spoke to so many people before the show who mentioned that being your kind of defining superpower. How do you think about the importance of speed of execution for you and for startups today, Alex?

   3. ABAlex Bouaziz6:07

      I mean, I think speed of execution is what defines a company, right? And, and speed of growth is what makes startups. If you're not growing, you're dead, right? So ...I mean, this is something we got very early on at the company, maybe even from YC where we just always looked at our week-on-week, month-on-month growth and it had to be, like, really, really good. Um, so, I mean, speed of execution is the only way. And it's on everything, right? Like, operations, customer support, customer success, product building. Like, we actually have a principle at Deel called Deel speed, which a lot of people misunderstand for, like, you know, when they're looking at our principles, like, "Oh, you wanna go fast and really fast." No, it's about doing things really well really fast, right? Like, if there's some- And I actually find that most of the successful people around me have that in their DNA, which is, if there's something you can do right now, just do it, don't push it to tomorrow, right? Like, act on it and move really fast and that execution helps you through every lifetime of the company, right? Like, when you're an early startup (clears throat) that speed of execution enables you to understand, is this the right product? Is this the right company really fast, right? When you're serving your customers, the speed of execution, the turnaround time, the care and empathy is what makes you, you know, have a happy customer that comes back and start expanding, right? So, I think this is really something that's very anchored in the Deel DNA in, in us.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings7:19

      I've heard some founders talk about going slow to go fast. There are some things where you need to deliberately reduce the speed to ensure the highest quality.

   5. ABAlex Bouaziz7:28

      Yeah.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings7:28

      Is there anything that you think you should go slow on?

   7. ABAlex Bouaziz7:32

      It depends, right? Like, uh, when it comes to sales, I don't think you should ever reduce the speed. I think you should always triple down. So that's something that's, uh, to me very important. You know, the hard part about Deel is, uh, when you're dealing with global compliance, and global compliance is really, really complicated, right? Like, it's not just, like, setting up a nice UI and starting to, like, uh, enable you to, to hire some people. It's understanding how do you onboard that person? How do you do it compliantly? How do you terminate them? How does overtime works in, in France, right? Like, where I'm from, which is one of the most complica- complicated country in the world. And when you do that, you gotta do it very, very carefully and that's why as we rolled out our products, as we rolled out our operational infrastructure, you know, we always took the time to do it really, really well, and that's what gave us an edge. So, that is kind of slow to go fast, but at the same time, when you've got that figured out, you gotta move really fast too.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings8:19

      Can I ask, Alex, I'm with you on the speed and urgency, but other people don't have it and I spend my life constantly fucked off that people don't run at the same speed. This is just like a, the show's turned into me being super sweet as a kid to, like, just being angry, like, grandpa in the corner. But people aren't fast enough and I'm going, "Fuck." And so my point is-

   9. ABAlex Bouaziz8:40

      Lovely.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings8:41

       ... how do you drive and instill this urgency and speed in teams?

   11. ABAlex Bouaziz8:45

       You know, what I like about Deel is really the mission of the company is to help hundreds of millions of people get to be hired by the best companies in the world, right? And, like, if you think about it, regardless of your role at Deel, someone on the other side is waiting for you, to get their money, to get their contract, to be, to get their severance. Like, that already drives a lot of, like, empathy and speed inside of our team, right? 'Cause they think, what if it was me, right? What if it was me on the other side waiting for my payments and not being able to pay rent because, like, the infrastructure didn't work, right? So that helps a lot. And the second thing is, I think it's the type of people you hire, right? Like, you should only hire people that are here and that are really hungry, right? That really wanna build, that want to be part of this, that are here for the right reasons. And you know, it's always hard to hire specifically at our scale, right? With 2,000 people across 100 countries. But hiring globally gives you a bigger pool of people to hire great talent.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings9:34

       I totally get you. Can I ask in terms of, like, you know, bluntly focus, there are so many things that you can choose to focus and spend time on. How do you determine where to focus attention and what's a distraction?

   13. ABAlex Bouaziz9:46

       The way I like to think about it is, if this is not catching my attention, like, think about, like, a process that's broken, right? That's getting customer escalations or some part of the sales funnel or rev operations that's not working. Like, if it's not getting to me, it's most likely that the, the leadership in that department is doing really well and they know that I'm here if, uh, if they need anything. If things get to me, Deel speed, right? Like, we move really fast. We wanna dive into it. I dive into it really, really in the details. Like, you know, even at that scale, I think I know most of the business operations really well, right? I'm able to dive into the details and say, "We gotta find a solution for that really, really fast." And I think that's really the, the key as you scale.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings10:22

       You said there about, like, if it gets to you, then, you know, something

5. 10:25 – 11:50

   Trust Over Time

   1. HSHarry Stebbings10:25

      has really gone wrong. There's a lot of trusts that one places within team leaders and managers. Do you start from a position of full trust and it's yours to be lost? Or, like, it's gained over time? Like, you've got to prove it to me.

   2. ABAlex Bouaziz10:36

      Fully distributed company, no choice. We have to start with full trust and it's here to be lost. Uh, we do have very tight KPIs and tight outputs, and we measure people, and we have a tendency to be really tough. Like, we keep the best and, uh, you know, the rest usually don't make it. Uh, but when you get that full trust and when you're able to execute, it's the best type of life, right? You can work from anywhere, you can do whatever you want, and you're delivering something really great. So, full trust, it's all yours to lose.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings11:00

      What happens when you have someone who's okay? They're good but they're not amazing, but they're actually in a role where you kinda need them and it's a pain in the ass to remove them, it's a pain in the ass to replace them. W- I'm, I'm literally using you as a big brother here. What do you do then where it's like, they're good, but not great?

   4. ABAlex Bouaziz11:18

      I think the one thing that would be the defining characteristic for me at that stage is how much do they care and how hard do they work? I would hire someone that works really hard over someone that's really smart any day of the week, right? So, if you work really hard and if you care, you know, you, I will be there to help you scale, I'll be there to help you grow, and we'll have the infrastructure for you. Uh, and if you have that, I'll, you know, stay with us for the rest of time, right? If you are like this and you don't care and you don't work hard, then you probably will find a better place somewhere else.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings11:49

      I totally

6. 11:50 – 14:44

   How do you approach hard decisions?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings11:50

      agree. When you decide to let someone go, it's a big decision. Four big decisions. Do you have a framework for making them when you think about deciding on a new product? Like, a move the needle decision. How do you approach those big fucking hard decisions?

   2. ABAlex Bouaziz12:05

      When I wanna let go someone, first, I look at the country and understand how to do it, right? (laughs)

   3. HSHarry Stebbings12:10

      (laughs)

   4. ABAlex Bouaziz12:10

      Yeah, I guess. But, uh, look, I think, yeah, letting go someone, uh, you know d-Hiring takes so much time, right? Like, you don't wanna do this unless, uh, you really made a mistake. So you really wanna be careful but you gotta be very decisive. If someone's not working out, it's in their best interest and it's in your best interest to probably part ways. So, you know, those are very clean decisions usually. Uh, actually the biggest mistakes I've, I've made is not fire fast enough a couple of people that really, I think, I was doing them a disfavor, right? Like, they were not doing something that they really enjoyed or they were not ... they were out of their depth and I didn't realize it enough, so it was mainly my fault. I think when it comes down to decisions, it's super cliché but this idea of like strong opinions but weakly held, I think what we're really good at Deel is just logically think about what's happening in front of us and make a quick decision, and then if we're wrong, like one or two weeks in, quickly, like, change it and iterate for it. And, you know, that has to be the mindset. I don't think anything is set. Uh, well, some of the decisions we make like opening a hundred entities are set for life. But like, I don't think anything is (laughs) set for life, right? Like, you can iterate really quickly and I think usually as long as you've got a very, very strong focus on your customers, you understand what they want, you understand the need that you're doing here, you should be able to make the right decision as a founder.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings13:22

      You said earlier, we- we're totally jumping around but I've had like four espressos in an hour, I say, "Fuck it." Speed of growth isn't actually everything, like 100% compounding works well. Do you not... How do you think about actually, like, it's not important to grow 100% but continuously and sustainably grow 30%?

   6. ABAlex Bouaziz13:41

      Uh, yeah, I mean, 30% is great. That's why we did at Deel, right? Like, for the first two years of the business, we grew 30% month on month. So, I'm all for that. You know, I think specifically when you're building a business where, you know, we have lawyers, HR, payroll managers in every country and there's like operations and automations that needs to be built, if you grow too fast, you break the business, right? Like, there's just... The, the customer experience gets hurt, right, and it's pained from the fact that the operations are not able to scale that. So, I think there's a very fine balance between like growing and, uh, maintaining your operations and your scale and how you do that. Not to be misunderstood for like it's okay not to grow, right? Like, you always need to be growing, right? So, funny enough most of the numbers you see, right, like 40, 57, which is what we did in 2020, um, one I think, yeah, and then, uh, 57 to 300, to, to 95 is what we did in 2022. That's actually where we budgeted even a little more at the beginning of the year, right? So that was calculated growth.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings14:39

      You're 29, mate. I don't find hiring comes naturally to me honestly. It is really

7. 14:44 – 17:25

   Biggest Lessons on Hiring

   1. HSHarry Stebbings14:44

      hard. What have been your biggest lessons on hiring and talent acquisition and determining whether someone has that hunger? For me and you, it's obvious. A lot of people, it's not obvious.

   2. ABAlex Bouaziz14:55

      I actually interviewed the first, I think north of 400, 500 first people at Deel. So, um, spent a lot of time on that until... I actually felt it was... I think it's a mistake, I should have kept making that funnel but until my team told me, "You hit a bottleneck, you need to stop interviewing people." Uh, but I learned a lot through that, right? Because like that's thousands and thousands of interviews. The luxury I have, right, is that most of the people that got to me were people that were already cut out for the job, right? Like, they had the right skills and they were the right people. So it was all about understanding are they the right people for the company and are they gonna be able to work with, you know, the likes of Shor or myself who are pretty hard and, you know, hardworking but hard people to work with for sure. And, um, what it taught me is to, you know, genuinely, even if someone has the right CV, if in your conversation you don't think they are the right DNA for the company, even if everybody tells you hire them, just don't, right? Like, that's the one thing that, uh, I would say in your process, like, make sure that if you think the person is not great or is not the right fit, even if they do everything on paper, just don't hire them.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings15:54

      What's the, what's the right DNA? Like, I, I always say to my mother, I gave words to my mother when I talk about people and I say, "He wasn't or she wasn't a savage."

   4. ABAlex Bouaziz16:02

      100% agree. I think it's just... Not in a bad way, it's just like the p- the... You need to be in the stage of your life that this is what you want to be doing, right? And this what you want to be accomplishing. And, uh, I think if, if not, you're just not gonna enjoy your ride, right? You're not gonna enjoy working with us because we are there, right? And if everybody's going at 1000 miles per hour and that's not the lifestyle, the lifestyle you want, then you're just not gonna have fun, right? So, I think, uh, being very honest with, uh, the expectations you have, why are people coming to Deel and joining your company and, um, how life is gonna be. Again, like I love what I do, right? Like, so for me, this is the life I want. You gotta make sure this is the life you want, you want and if it's not, it's totally okay, right?

   5. HSHarry Stebbings16:43

      I, I totally agree. Um, and I think kind of you tell very early in that interview process. Can I ask, you, you've scaled so fast. When we look at now over a thousand people in three years. When we think about like the blitzscaling strategy... Two years?

   6. ABAlex Bouaziz16:56

      2000.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings16:57

      Oh fuck.

   8. ABAlex Bouaziz16:58

      (laughs)

   9. HSHarry Stebbings16:58

      Anyway. (laughs) You know when you mean something like, I feel so insecure about my own life? Normally, I'm like-

   10. ABAlex Bouaziz17:04

       No, I know. It's, you know, ha- adding headcount is not what makes a company successful, if not the opposite. It's just the complexity of what we do just, uh, makes it-

   11. HSHarry Stebbings17:11

       No, I, I know but I tweeted before the show that you, you printed more cash than Central Bank's quantitative easing policies, (laughs) which I thought was quite a good joke actually. Uh, but anyway, I, I spoke to Gokul, um, before the show, one of your angels,

8. 17:25 – 19:02

   Blitzkrieg Strategy

   1. HSHarry Stebbings17:25

      and he said, "Ask him... Just take me through the blitzscaling strategy." What was the key to such supercharged growth? Because obviously just realistically there are very few companies that can grow that quickly. What was the key?

   2. ABAlex Bouaziz17:37

      Uh, a few things. First, I think our product decisions were pretty on point. We started our product with helping companies hire contractors. We're the only one in the market. When we saw that there was an opportunity with helping people hire as employees and we saw a couple companies in the space, because we actually came in a little later on that, we executed really fast, right? Like from the product strategy, from the early sales into the hiring and the opening entities. And the same thing happened with global payroll, right? Like, we started seeing companies thinking about opening their own entity, right? Like, we're like, "Uh, we got to get on that front." Right? And now that we have all this solution, again, doing a pre-Pivotal moment and saying, "We're going to be the full HR stack." Like, so I think those product decisions to really grow with our customers and for them to see...Wow, okay, Deel is growing with me, right? Like, they're doing the right things and they're moving in the right direction. I can trust them, right? Like, when we started Deel, the questions people were asking us is, "How do I know you're not gonna run with the salaries I'm paying out to my people?" Right? Like, that's what we started with.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings18:28

      How did you gain that trust with them? 'Cause you were just a young startup. Like, you didn't have brand.

   4. ABAlex Bouaziz18:32

      Um, I, I think it's something you win over time, right? Like, discussions, your face, like, marketing, um, raising funds helps. Like, I mean, I think if you looked at our numbers, we've always been pretty transparent as a company. Like, we talk about where we are, we talk about... Of course, you know, it's easier when you're growing, right, than, than when you're not to talk about this. But like, there is, like, intent into, like, sharing what we do, sharing how we wanna help, sharing how we wanna democratize, like, global hiring, remote work, so that people feel comfortable saying like, "Hey, you know, I can trust that company. They're really growing." So Speaker

9. 19:02 – 24:05

   Early Messaging to Ideal Client Profile

   1. ABAlex Bouaziz19:02

      1 ] Can, can I, can I just ask, on, on the messaging side, I always find early it's really important to have a tight ICP. Like, to really be able to message consistently and accurately well to a small defined audience. Yours is such a horizontal, "Hey, you wanna hire people globally?" Well, kind of, the whole world's companies. How did you think about that early messaging and getting that ICP in the early days? Yeah, so Deel is a bit more complex where you have at least three stakeholders depending on the size of the company, right? Like, HR, finance and legal, right? All three of them care about one part of the solution, and you gotta harmonize them and you need to understand who in the company... You know, 'cause different companies have different, like, strong leaders. So sometimes it'll be people, sometimes it'll be finance, right? Depending on the companies themself. Usually end up being those two, to be honest. And legal is more here to, to help them truly scale and make those decisions. Uh, then you, you basically tailor your pitch, right, to the person you have in front of you because you know what they care about, right? Like, your CFO is gonna care about savings, is gonna care about automation. Your HR leader is gonna care about people experience, right? And like, different stack, different tools. So I think you gotta... You know, in conversation, we're, we're pretty high ACV, right? Like, this is one of the reason, you know, the company is doing well, is like, we're selling something that's high value so people are willing to pay more for it than your usual HR product, right? So when you have a higher ACV, you have much, much deeper conversation with your ICPs and you're truly able to understand what do they truly care about to tailor it for them.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings20:22

      Tell me, I heard about this go-to-market hack of having 50 customers on WhatsApp. What was that?

   3. ABAlex Bouaziz20:29

      I love having customers on WhatsApp. This is a... You know, I... Product reports into me and I'm... It's probably the place where I spend the most time. You know, again, Deel is four years old, right? Relatively young company. When you wanna decide where you're going next, it's better to hear it first from your customers, right? And what better way to chat with them directly on, on WhatsApp, right? And I mean, I made great friends that whenever we're launching a new product, whenever we're thinking of something, I can just hit them up and say like, "What do you think of that?" Right? And like, that, nothing can beat that.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings20:55

      Can I ask, how do you know what advice to take and what customer suggestions to take versus what not to? I have some people that are like, "I wanna hear more of the story of the guest." And then I hea- have others who are like, "Fuck the intro, I just wanna get to the strategy." And it's very subjective. So how do you know what to ingest and take in versus what to reject?

   5. ABAlex Bouaziz21:14

      Um, I think it's different type of feedback. If you're looking at feedback that's like, "Hey, your product is shit here and here and here," right? Like, this is something that's very direct, right? You listen, you execute, no matter what we tell you. When you're looking for, like, where should I go next? What are the type of things I should go? I usually look for more validation, right? Like, I have a hypothesis and I'm trying to understand, out of the 100 people I'm gonna talk to, how many people are gonna take me there versus not. Um, so with the feedback, I think really matters on... Yeah, I mean, generally for me at this stage, it's less about the product, it's more about, like, where should we go next, kind of.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings21:47

      Now, how much of your vision... (laughs) I've got so much energy today, it's weird. How much of your vision is predefined, like, in your head, internal, versus it's customer led?

   7. ABAlex Bouaziz21:59

      Vision, I would say most of it is predefined. Product iterations, product directions and the nitty-gritty on how to make it great. This is what customers are helping us figure out, as well as sequencing of what do we come out with first, right? Like, the cool thing about HR is a lot of things are very adjacent to it. It's like we could probably sell any product to a certain amount of our user base, right? But understanding what is the right thing to focus on and when is where, you know, that's much more customer led.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings22:27

      Yeah. I mean, we- we're gonna talk about, kind of, market (laughs) landscape and competition.

   9. ABAlex Bouaziz22:31

      Sure.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings22:31

       Should be, should be interesting. You, but 2,000 people in those four-year journey. The oth- the other question that I had is, what breaks first? When you think about scaling so fast, what are the first things to break?

   11. ABAlex Bouaziz22:43

       I mean, for us it's always been, you know, about making sure it doesn't break. Like, customer support, customer success, uh, operations. So whether it's, like, local operations, legal operations, or, um, even Fintech, right? Like, payout infrastructure we're paying. Five plus billion dollar we've paid so far, and I don't know how much of that is this year. Probably most of it. Um, so that is the part that you need to be very careful you don't break as you scale, right? And this is always where you have the trade-off as you build your product, like, how much do I automate versus automate later, right? And how do I go about that? And this is the part where we've been super, super careful on. And, you know, my COO is a, he's a savage, like you said earlier, and, uh, you know, he, he built a lot of the infrastructure at Revolut early on, and, uh, they definitely teach people how to build strong processes and operations at that company.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings23:27

       But Alex, good, good answer. You... A career in politics. What broke first?

   13. ABAlex Bouaziz23:33

       I used to do support, 2021, and there was a time where there was too many customers. I couldn't do it anymore, I needed to hire someone, and I had not planned fast enough to hire there. So, uh, I struggled for... Me and Troy were doing support every day till, like, very late on different time zone to make sure that we get that. And, you know, that was mis-planning for me. I mean, a- again, there's lots of things that break. It depends what department you wanna focus on, right? Like, when it comes to sales, invest in sales ops so much earlier, right? Like, we were paying the price of having a... Well, now it's much, much, much better, but at the time, we paid the price of having not a perfect sales force that was easy to use, right? So, like, there's tons

10. 24:05 – 26:13

    Why Invest in Sales

    1. ABAlex Bouaziz24:05

       of stuff that break. It's just a matter of focus.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings24:07

       Talk to me, why invest in sales ops much earlier, and what was the lessons there?

    3. ABAlex Bouaziz24:11

       If you're sure you've got a form of product/market fit, revenue operation, sales operations is what's truly going to enable you to scale. 'Cause your reps are more efficient, your close rate is better, you have a better understanding of what's going on.... your SDRs are much more efficient, your customer success are much more efficient. And, um, if you wanna scale as fast as we do, like it's all about optimizing so that they can do their job and empowering them to do that. And, you know, if you look at today, I think we have easily more than 200, 300 plus reps, right, on, on, in the sales organization. Like, optimizing for them and making their life better is such a great investment for us. And, uh, you know, as you, as you grow, you, you know, when it's your first time building a company at this scale, like, you don't have as much insight. And, you know, thank God, we brought some really great people to help us there. And, uh, you know, the, the bright side of this is, like, now that we are, like, they're making such an impact that we're significantly incre- imp- imp- like, improving everything on, on our sales organization.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings25:01

       Can I ask, with the consistent demands that you place on the company for growth and speed of growth, how significant a role is technical debt? 'Cause you constantly want more, you constantly want speed, and it's easy to plaster over. Did technical debt become a problem at a time?

    5. ABAlex Bouaziz25:18

       No, uh, not really actually. Like, I think we, we can do much better. Uh, and I think, like, we're always refactoring our architecture and thinking about different things, and specifically as you introduce new product, right? Like, if you think about deal and the lifetime of the company, we started with contractors, and then we did employer of record, and then global payroll. And now we're actually coming back and saying, "Okay, we're gonna add an HR layer under this that's gonna be the base of the infrastructure," right? So you're coming back under (...) (01:09) okay, now you have someone on your HR platform, and then they can be something else, right, like an EO or a contractor or whatever. Like, so, you know, on the architectural side, like, that takes a lot of work. And, you know, very early on, maybe we didn't do as much, like, refactoring as we should have. But eventually, as you build a very stable product organization that's growing fast, but at the same time, very careful on how they release things, and maybe ... We still push to production every day, but are much more in a diligence on how they do that and how they do sprint planning. Then you just basically build up more and more refactoring on your side. And, you know, you always have some form of technical debt, but as long as it doesn't hurt

11. 26:13 – 30:10

    Lessons from Running Large Teams Remotely

    1. ABAlex Bouaziz26:13

       customers and you can fix it over time, it's fine.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings26:15

       What have been the biggest lessons that you've learned in running a team of this scale remotely? And r- remotely as well. That's what's insane.

    3. ABAlex Bouaziz26:23

       I think we might be, like, one of the biggest if not the biggest private company that's fully distributed, by the way.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings26:27

       Yeah.

    5. ABAlex Bouaziz26:28

       Um, I mean, there's tons, right? Like, um, you asked at the beginning about trust. Like, I think this is the most important, right? Like, my frame ... I think remote works for us because my framework is I trust you. Let's execute together and let's make sure you're the right person, and that really works. And I don't think it will work any other way. I don't think ... If you don't have that mindset, you'll be able to, to really build a, a distributed company at this scale.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings26:49

       Do you give people the room to set their own goals or do you micromanage? 'Cause this is my challenge, which is, like, unless I micromanage, they don't fucking run fast enough.

    7. ABAlex Bouaziz26:58

       At the very beginning, depending on the size of the company, I think you shape leaders and they shape you as well into, like, building a relationship where, like, they're able to run on their own. Take for example, my head of product, Pierce. You know, at the very beginning, he came from a very different type of organization. Now, you know, he knows what I'm gonna say before I even say it, right? So, like, I kind of fully trust him on running that really well. Um, so I think it's a mix of both, right? Like, when you're onboarding someone, like, it's important to be there for them, specifically on, like, a remote base. As you grow and as you hire very, very strong people, I think, you know, you tend to be a little less micromanaging. Now, being in the details is very important, right? Like, you, first you don't need to be in the details and annoy the people you work with. You can just understand the details and then s- then, you know, say something when you have something to say and not just say it all the time, and that usually helps.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings27:42

       Did COVID as, like, a, a general kind of, like, theme for two years make it easier for you to scale because-

    9. ABAlex Bouaziz27:48

       A little.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings27:48

        ... everyone was acquiring talent remotely and it was the new normal? Or did it make it harder because it was more competitive actually and then everyone could re- hire remotely?

    11. ABAlex Bouaziz27:57

        Um, well, you know, we started company in 2019, right? So right before COVID. So, it's hard for me to tell you how different my life was because we were not hiring in 2019 versus 2020. But I think what we saw is that, you know, the war for talent, this mainly because a lot of companies were growing really fast, so they felt like they needed a lot of headcount to match that. That growth, um, went a little crazy and the salaries that came out of that were a little insane. That didn't help on the sales side on our side, right? 'Cause, like, people were starting to look outside of the Bay Area for hiring. Uh, so I don't have a really strong answer for that, but, you know, COVID for us as a company, um, did two things. One, it helped us acquire, like, larger enterprise customers that needed a solution much faster because their best engineers was relocating to Croatia and they didn't have an entity there. Uh, but it also, like, sets the tone, I think, for the whole world to look at global talent as a, "I can probably do that."

    12. HSHarry Stebbings28:47

        A final one on team and people. You said to me before that Silicon Valley won't be the epicenter of tech for much longer. There's this, like, revolt on Twitter where, like, everyone's coming back saying, "Oh, it's back with AI, baby." Um, uh, why won't Silicon Valley be the epicenter, my friend?

    13. ABAlex Bouaziz29:02

        I think Silicon Valley is a mindset, right? Like, it's very, very strong people, they're all over the world, right? I think I'm a pretty strong embodiment of, like, the values that Silicon Valley has. I think you have as well. And you're in the UK and I'm in Paris right now. So, I think that's never gonna go away, and I think this can make the stepping stone of, you know, of our whole networks and the wh- this whole ecosystem. Saying that one location is, like, the center of everything here is, you know ... With the state of the internet today and the accessibility and investors being willing to invest ... You know, we raised most of our rounds actually, like, without even meeting most of our investors, right? So, like, that shows that, you know, the valley has expanded into the world. And I lived in San Francisco for a bit, right? Like, I understand the mindset of, like, you're in a room, there's a lot of smart people, there's nothing to do at night, so everybody's working all the time. I get that. Yeah, that's a great way to build great companies. (laughs)

    14. HSHarry Stebbings29:50

        I totally agree with you. They also go to bed and have dinner so fricking early. It's incredible. (laughs)

    15. ABAlex Bouaziz29:54

        I think local 8:00 PM or something. I don't r- ... You know, I'm from, I'm from Paris and Tel Aviv, right? Like, you start going out at 9:30, 10:00, you know? (laughs)

    16. HSHarry Stebbings30:01

        Yeah. Y- uh, no one's also in the office until, like, 10:00 AM in Paris. It's bizarre, (laughs) um. I, I wanna move away from team, though, more to the space itself, 'cause the space,

12. 30:10 – 36:20

    Winner Takes All Market

    1. HSHarry Stebbings30:10

       it bluntly is holding up. And I spoke to one of your investors who said, "It's not a winner take all market." And you vehemently disagreed with them, apparently. Um, (laughs) and so they-

    2. ABAlex Bouaziz30:21

       I don't think so, any day.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings30:22

       And so t- tell me, it's not a winner take all market, Alex. Why am I wrong?

    4. ABAlex Bouaziz30:27

       ... because we're gonna make make sure it's not. (laughs)

    5. HSHarry Stebbings30:29

       (laughs) Is there, is there a reason though why? Like, is there a structural reason why it's not?

    6. ABAlex Bouaziz30:35

       So, I think there can be a lot of great companies in this space. I think like every space there's like one clear winner that's gonna come out of this, right? And that's gonna be significantly larger than others. That's how I kind of word it. Will you have, you know, a couple of $10 billion plus companies built there? Sure. I think this is truly a company that can be built, a generational company that can be built and there's only gonna be one of those.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings30:55

       I mean, this super nicely, man, you just said like a couple of $10 billion companies, there's not many $10 billion companies in the non 2021 inflated quantitative easy environment. Like, you know, Twilio is a $6 billion company. You sure there's gonna be a couple of secondary companies that are worth 10 billion?

    8. ABAlex Bouaziz31:11

       HR payroll, like it's such a complex infrastructure that is always specific needs into specific markets and companies that can be built. And every single company needs a product that's tailored for them or verticalized for something they need as well, right? So I do think there's ma- okay, maybe don't go to 10, $5 billion plus dollar companies. Sure. Uh, and you know, they don't need to be blitzscaling, right? They don't need to get to a billion ARR in three years, right? Like, those are companies that can be built over the next 15, 20 years and get to that revenue because they've built an amazing product in that timeframe. That's what I meant.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings31:40

       I, I totally get you. You, you mentioned that verticalization, do you think SaaS is bundling rather than going to vertical point solutions? And how do you think about that?

    10. ABAlex Bouaziz31:49

        (laughs) I, I love this conversation because I think one of the beauty of Deel and the way we've built it is the ability of bundling and unbundling them both together, right? Like, if you go into a traditional solution, you come in and they like try to feed you everything, right? And they try to sell you everything specifically in HR, right? Like, you gotta be on your own HRIS to be able to buy the other products. And that's how it works. When you look at Deel, you can come, and this is how we've been able to go to enterprise as well, right? Like, you come and you can, you can hire one person in South Korea or in Japan, right? In a couple minutes if you're Nike or if you're Subway like some of our customers, right? They're like, "You don't need to buy the full HR solution, right? We plug and play with your, your SAP or your Workday." We are also then able to introduce you to different products that we have, right? Like, and you start having that suite of product that you're buying over time and like getting into the account slowly and surely ensuring them we're the right people to partner with. And that idea of like being able to like bundle everything if they want to, but also being able to unbundle and do things we're very specialized in at the same time. I find that like super interesting.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings32:45

        I have Parker Carnatt on the show and he mentioned that, but also how bluntly when you own the stack and own multiple different products, all propagated to you by the same service provider, like what an enhanced product you can build because of the data that you have across the product suites. Like how do you think about the increased product you can offer because you have multiple different points into the company?

    12. ABAlex Bouaziz33:07

        I think it's, it's good insight. I, I do think that there's some products that are much more complex to build than others where you need to spend a lot of time on and where a lot of companies are building heavily into that. You know, whether it's compliance, whether it's infrastructure, building a lot of products that are six or seven out of 10 is a good Microsoft like play, right? I think some of them needs to be nine and 10. And you know, I think Deel to some extent is doing part of that where we want to be able to consolidate all of this and enable our customers to really grow without want to take on a, a Brex or Ramp, probably not today, right? Like, I think you really need to put the right care in order to build the right product there rather than build a product in a couple weeks and pushing out to market.

    13. HSHarry Stebbings33:45

        Would you wanna take on Brex or Ramp in five years time?

    14. ABAlex Bouaziz33:49

        Hmm, I'd love to partner with them. You know, those are two, two very close companies. I love them. So, uh, probably not in that space.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings33:56

        You're such a good politician. There's a, the politicians, their tactic called the pivot, which is when someone says something and they make a nice little pivot to the side.

    16. ABAlex Bouaziz34:03

        Enrique, Karim, they're animals, they're savages. I want them on my side, not on the opposite side of the table.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings34:09

        Oh, I know, I remember going for drinks with Enrique in London. He was like, "I'll have a tea." And I was like drinking like a nutter at the time. I was like, "You boring sod." And now I'm like, "I don't drink" and I'm like, "This guy is smart." (laughs)

    18. ABAlex Bouaziz34:19

        (laughs) I think it's important to be focused, right? Like, my job is to help hundreds of millions of people get to work for the best companies and make sure that they do it compliantly in every single one of those countries. That's not something you launch in a couple weeks. That's something that's taken us like years to get to because of how complex it is. And it's super important that, you know, we get that right. And you know, when you're dealing with labor laws that are changing every week with taxes that are changing every week, right? Like with, uh, in payment engine, like payroll engines that are different. Like you have startups like PayFit or Pento that are like literally building a Pa- or Gusto in one country because that's how hard it is, right? Like, doing things right in this space is super important. So, we wanna be really focused on doing that and then adding the things that we find are a little easier to build, like the software, HR stack of like adding people, uh, and all this.

    19. HSHarry Stebbings35:03

        Can I ask, Europe is not a easy place for compliance. A lot of Americans are like, "Ah, Europe, ah, Europe."

    20. ABAlex Bouaziz35:09

        Ah, yeah. Love it. (laughs)

    21. HSHarry Stebbings35:10

        Like, do- is it like a yeah, we can take Europe or is Europe actually as difficult and challenging as one would expect Europe to be?

    22. ABAlex Bouaziz35:18

        The last three months, and I can't wait for, you know, companies in this space that are coming smiley thinking, oh, such a high ACV, we're gonna have fun. Uh, like in the last three months, thousands of people got laid off. They, most companies apart from the one, you know, that are really in this space that know how it works, have no idea how to fire someone in the Netherlands on behalf of your c- of your customers, right? Like the rules to do that, which, you know, it's crazy, right? And again, the, the easy part of any are like at least one of those products, like people love to say, "Oh, that's an amazing product." The moat is not that strong. Sure, it's easy to spin up an entity and then get people employed on it and charge for that. But what happens when you go into Germany or France when you need specific licenses to do that? What happens when you start needing to do mass termination? When in some countries you cannot terminate more than X people at one time, right? Like those are the things that are truly, truly hard that a lot of people in the US think, "Oh this is gonna be easy 'cause it, it works like in my country." But it's, I mean, you know, that, that's not it.

    23. HSHarry Stebbings36:15

        No, my, my, I, I think the reason why I've been actually quite successful as an interviewer is I ask stupid questions

13. 36:20 – 40:02

    How does Deel grow in the future?

    1. HSHarry Stebbings36:20

       that probably everyone else thinks.

    2. ABAlex Bouaziz36:21

       (laughs)

    3. HSHarry Stebbings36:21

       Um, in a world where everyone else is getting laid off, literally every day there's new layoffs. How does Deel grow? Like your business is predicated on hiring.... like, how do you grow if everyone's (laughs) getting laid off?

    4. ABAlex Bouaziz36:33

       Yeah. I think it's a matter of two different things. One, consideration of tools is super important-

    5. HSHarry Stebbings36:38

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ABAlex Bouaziz36:38

       And having one solution that helps you grow into different workforce mode, whether it's like contractors, where we help you do that compliantly, opening your own entity so that you settle the cost, and having everything in one platform, that's super appealing for our customers. Second is, a- a- and I mean, I'm getting calls by some of the biggest HR, uh, CHROs and, uh, CPOs of the market, right? Like, people understand that paying 500K and burning, you know, tens of millions of dollars per month is not as sustainable anymore, and it's not growth at all costs now. It's about profitability, and a great way to achieve that because the market hasn't co- like, come down in some of the key markets, right, is to hire internationally, right? So like, building a strategy that helps you navigate the different employment mode, navigate the different countries to get the best talent, I believe is going to be one of the big things of 2023. I mean, I'm super biased, but I believe that it's gonna be one of them.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings37:27

       Do you think that cost focus will drive a bundling? And what I mean by that is traditionally in bundling, you obviously have kind of better economics. You get the whole suite for 49.99 versus point solutions, which are kind of 19.99 each and then you end up paying $100. Do you think... And they might be nine out of 10 products, and these are seven out of 10 products, but do you think that actually that cost for efficiency on savings will drive bundling?

    8. ABAlex Bouaziz37:50

       100%, because the HR leader who we love is not gonna have as much decision power here, and the CFO is going to, right? So 100%. So if you combine the idea of bundling the hard things, right, like global payroll, EUR, contractors compliantly, immigration services, right, all of the things we do into one product, you know, let's say if tomorrow were to release a performance management tool, it's maybe not gonna be the best in the market straight away, right? Hopefully over time it will be, but right? Like, your CFO is gonna be happy to have a five or six out of 10, even, not even seven, right? Like five or six out of 10, because it's gonna cut cost and bundle everything.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings38:25

       Yeah. I, I totally agree. Um, uh, you've recently made some acquisitions, speaking of kind of like product expansions. Talk to me about how you think about making acquisitions. 'Cause I'm just intrigued, uh, why do you acquire versus build internally? What's that decision-making?

    10. ABAlex Bouaziz38:39

        Yeah, I think a few things. One, it's amazing to add, uh, grand entrepreneurs that are very passionate about what they're solving and, and telling them, "Hey," like first, "Here's 15,000 customers, right, from all different segments that we can sell into your product and help us get better." Second, usually what the companies we acquire are doing is very hard, right? So we acquired, for example, LegalPad that did US immigration, they actually did my own O-1 visa.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings39:01

        Sure.

    12. ABAlex Bouaziz39:01

        That's very, very specialized. It's very hard to do, and taking this immigration product now to 26 different countries, like we can help you hire someone under a visa and get them the visa in 26 different countries. Like, this is really, really, really hard. And that expertise is super valuable for us. Or if you look at PayGroup, which was like a bit of a crazy acquisition because they were a public company in Australia, they do payroll in like all of APAC themself. Like, good luck running payroll in like China, India, Japan yourself, right? Like, this is where we went from, "Hey, we're working with local people that help us run payroll in our own entities." To deploying our global payroll product and saying, bringing everything in-house. And those guys are freaking amazing at it, and we're here for it.

    13. HSHarry Stebbings39:43

        They gave you a visa? (laughs) No, I'm joking. Uh-

    14. ABAlex Bouaziz39:46

        An O-1 visa, and the only visa.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings39:48

        Ah, not just a visa. You're a special person.

    16. ABAlex Bouaziz39:50

        Yeah.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings39:51

        Uh, tell me, that's really hard though. Like, you acquire, you know, th- this Aussie company that's public, and then you just integrate them and still... How did you do the integration? And Al- Alex-

    18. ABAlex Bouaziz40:00

        It was-

    19. HSHarry Stebbings40:00

        ... how did you know what to do?

    20. ABAlex Bouaziz40:01

        It's

14. 40:02 – 41:59

    On Working With Father

    1. ABAlex Bouaziz40:02

       hard. We don't know how to do it as well as we want to. Uh, luckily for us, my CFO, who actually is also my father, that makes it quite interesting dynamic wise, uh, actually his first company who he took public as a CEO, did about 50 plus M&As to grow. Um, so they didn't grow as much organically. They were a service business, so they did a lot of M&As, so that's actually something he's really, really good at. Um, so that makes the cost of acquiring a lot cheaper, so it made the negotiation a lot easier. Uh, and then when it comes to the people side, I mean there's still a lot of work to do, but you know, Casey, our head of people is really amazing at that, putting a great plan together and executing on it. And you know, I think it takes time to do a proper integration, but uh, we're getting better.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings40:40

       Tell me, your father. I didn't know that actually. How do you make it work with your dad?

    3. ABAlex Bouaziz40:45

       You know, we're very tight as a family, you know, um, the way I was raised, we're very, very close and, um, I think we have very different skill sets, right? Like, I'm much more aggressive, make decisions a lot faster, and much more product and maybe a bit more Americanized in many ways, right? Where I understand the value a bit more because I studied in the US. Where he's much more traditional French, like CEO of a public company. One of the reason we are EBITDA, um, positive now, right, since September, which was one of the big announcement we had, is that in January he looked at the market and he said, "Uh-uh, hiring freeze everyone, you gotta work on your workbooks and what you're doing. And I want us to be a bit EBITDA positive by the end of the year." And we're like, "Okay." And it ended up being like one of the best decision of the company, right? So I think we have a very, very different skill set, but at the same time very complementary. And I think there's a lot of like mutual respects where he understands, you know, I'm also here to make my mistakes. So you know, his favorite thing is like, "You'll see in three months, I was right." Or, "In six months I was right." And he's right most of the time, to be honest.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings41:40

       (laughs)

    5. ABAlex Bouaziz41:40

       Uh, he's a very special person on this, he's very, very strong and I'm learning a lot from him. And um, you know, at the end of the day, I think the trifecta of like finance people and uh, and Shuo, who is managing most of the sales, is really like working well together into, into building Deal Today.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings41:55

       That's fucking awesome. I did not know that. That's so cool. Um, listen, I wanna,

15. 41:59 – 45:10

    Taking Money Out of Company as a Founder

    1. HSHarry Stebbings41:59

       I wanna touch on, we spoke about your father, I wanna touch on you and then a quick fire. You took secondaries out, my man.

    2. ABAlex Bouaziz42:04

       Mm-hmm.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings42:05

       Um, uh, it's always shrouded in secrecy, which I think is what drives so much of the cynicism towards them. I think if there's like transparency, like how much did you take out?

    4. ABAlex Bouaziz42:14

       Uh, on my side around 10, mainly to buy like an apartment and a few different things I wanted to do, like buying some presents for my father and my parents. But the cool part is that when we did that, um, Shuo and I, we actually allowed all our early employees to do it as well if they wanted to.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings42:28

       Got you. How did you decide that was the right amount, one, and how much early employees took secondaries?

    6. ABAlex Bouaziz42:35

       Uh, the right amount for us, well, the place I wanted to buy cost X, and then I had a couple other things I wanted to get done. Um, so it was, one, something we felt comfortable with, and second, getting to the amount that the guys that did the round wanted to get to. So, (Chuckle) they both wanted those things at the same time.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings42:51

       Oh, okay.

    8. ABAlex Bouaziz42:51

       So the dynamic is there, right? They want a certain amount of ownership with a... a certain amount of money and when you're at this stage, like, you know, that definitely is a part of that. How many people did secondaries on the employee side? Um, I can think of, like, 15, uh, but again, you know, it was, uh, 10% of what they had earned, right? So, like, we didn't want them to be checked out, right? But it was definitely, like, in more... even some of them more than me in the amount side. So, uh, I think they were very happy and they were able to do a lot of great things and they're still key leaders at the company, they're executing and got Deel to where it is today.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings43:21

       Mate, if you have a Savage and you give him 10 million, there'll be even more of a Savage. (laughs)

    10. ABAlex Bouaziz43:26

        Yeah. That's exactly what happened, right?

    11. HSHarry Stebbings43:28

        Yeah.

    12. ABAlex Bouaziz43:28

        Like, some of the people that took money off the table, like, they were able to buy the things that they needed to have, like, a really good life and now they're like, "Well, you know, I'm good. Let's freaking go." And actually, one of the thing, you know, most of the smart investors I worked with that work with founders, and frankly, it was not exactly my case, I wasn't as much in need as maybe some other founders, but, like, I think smart investors understand, "I don't want the guys that are running the company to be worrying about, you know-"

    13. HSHarry Stebbings43:53

        Yeah.

    14. ABAlex Bouaziz43:53

        ... Qalibot. And, and that's... I think it's important because when you have so many things to worry about, worrying about that as well is not useful when you can, you know, sell a bit of your shares to someone that's interested in it and that they can have a peace of mind on that front.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings44:03

        No, I totally agree with you. I think it's the most ineffective w- waste of, like, mind space for your team to have, um, when you can solve it.

    16. ABAlex Bouaziz44:10

        Yeah.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings44:10

        What advice would you have for founders when it comes to secondaries? 'Cause a lot of them are getting killed. Uh, uh, how do you, how do you think about advice for founders?

    18. ABAlex Bouaziz44:18

        Well, I mean, I'm no one to judge what other people are doing. Um, I do think that... I mean, I think that craze is over, but, like, taking secondary at, like, the series A, I don't think it's super smart. Um, (clears throat) taking it a bit later kinda, I think, makes a bit more sense. I mean, we had taken a little bit at our series B and then a little bit more at our series D. Um, I felt like this was the right amount and the way we kinda did it was very systematic, where we work on, like, a little bit of secondary there and then on the s- on the second one would be a, a refresh in the next round for our shares as we go. That's how we kind of think about it. Um, so I think the right amount is what makes you comfortable depending on your situation. You know, I don't have a family. Uh, I just wanted to be able to have, like, a, a nice place I can live in and then, you know, put some money on the side so that I can diversify, and that, that has worked out really well. I don't know if taking a lot of secondary is super smart, but, uh,

16. 45:10 – 47:00

    Angel Investing

    1. ABAlex Bouaziz45:10

       you know, I think in my case, I think it's gonna be worth a lot more, so.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings45:13

       So, you angel invest with the proceeds. How did you decide how much to put asi-... Did you decide that, "I'm gonna put a million aside for angel investing?"

    3. ABAlex Bouaziz45:21

       Uh, you know, I think most founders that take a little bit of secondaries the first few months are very dumb with their angel investing and they just invest in everything that they see because their friends send it to them.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings45:31

       Yeah.

    5. ABAlex Bouaziz45:31

       Um, and I think this is the case, like, amongst most of my friends that did a bit of secondaries, (laughs) so, like, I'm not the only one. (clears throat) But, uh, you know-

    6. HSHarry Stebbings45:38

       Did you do this?

    7. ABAlex Bouaziz45:39

       Uh, I- I sta- no, so thankfully I actually started investing very, very early on for a fund before. So I have a bit of experience and, uh, I definitely invested in some companies because, uh, it was my friend running it and maybe it wasn't the smartest decision. But, uh, now I've become much more calm and much more... you know, I don't really have time to manage it anymore. So, I rarely do angel investing in the last few months.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings45:58

       Can I ask, what have been your biggest lessons from doing that investing, both with fund and angel investing? How has it impacted how you run Deel?

    9. ABAlex Bouaziz46:05

       One, I think a lot of founders... So, I think we actually do send really great investor updates and I think a lot of founders send very shitty investor updates. So-

    10. HSHarry Stebbings46:12

        Super shitty.

    11. ABAlex Bouaziz46:13

        Yeah. So, like, that's something that I've realized, where I actually can... I think I can tell whether a company is gonna be successful by the investor updates I'm getting very early on. It's a strong statement, but I really think it.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings46:23

        Well, what makes you think it's gonna work early? Is it data clarity? Is it, like, the tone? Is it the-

    13. ABAlex Bouaziz46:30

        I want you to tell me how I can help you. How is the company really progressing? At the same time, you have, like, people that send you very shitty updates where you're like, "There's no data," and you can't actually even help from the data you're getting, right? So, like, I think there needs to be a middle ground.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings46:41

        So, a lot of founders are worried. I, I think it was Ryan Hoover said this to me 'cause he's another of your investors. He was like, "Ask him about data transparency," 'cause a lot of founders worry that, "Oh, I shared too much data and all these investors are gonna forward it and share it." Wh- what do you advise founders on data transparency in your investor updates?

    15. ABAlex Bouaziz46:55

        I assume everything you send is forwarded and read by all your competitors (laughs) . And that's

17. 47:00 – 50:26

    How To Do Investor Updates

    1. ABAlex Bouaziz47:00

       number one. (clears throat) Number two, I mean, even my board deck somehow ended up into competitor's hands, so. Uh, number two, um-

    2. HSHarry Stebbings47:08

       That's bad. (laughs)

    3. ABAlex Bouaziz47:11

       Um, I think it... what's important is, like, you can be secret on a couple, like, product launches and a couple of your metrics, like, whatever you feel is important, but at the end of the day, it's the same way when you launch, right? Like, no one actually ca-... You're a $1 million company, there's another company that's at 5 million AR. If you think, like, sending your investor update of what you achieved last month is going to be, like, what's gonna change the game between the two of you, then you're probably wrong. Um, so giving the right data is super important. Like, don't go and share all of the data that you think are critical for your business, but share the things that are actually gonna be helpful and makes people excited about you. Like, you know, if you were fundraising, like, two, three months ahead, show that you're growing to get your things that are happening. If you need help with specific things or if you're very proud of something, like, you know, people are proud that, that they've invested with you, uh, and they're invested in you. So, share the right data and help them help you.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings47:58

       How often do you send updates? How often do you wanna see them from founders in the early days? Like, what do you-

    5. ABAlex Bouaziz48:04

       Sure.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings48:04

       ... and then, one, and then two, if things aren't going well, uh, how honest are you?

    7. ABAlex Bouaziz48:09

       I sent investor updates every month until September of this year. I realized most people weren't helping (laughs) anymore, so they... so I just stopped sending them and I'm just sending quarterly now, which is, uh, just... it's less about help 'cause when I need something, I usually go and ask it to the person directly. It's more about, you know, making sure that they have an idea of what's going on with the company and they don't forget us 'cause they have so much things on their mind that, you know, it's totally something that I, I would understand. Uh, I think early on you need to send monthly updates. Uh, and I would be f-Transparent but smart in the way I write it. Transparent in the way that things are not going well, say it, say what you need, but do not try to have your investors commiserate because they, like, what you're going to get out of them is they won't care anymore, which is n- exactly the opposite (laughs) of what you want, right? So, like, don't overshare but share the things that you truly are worried about and you feel they're gonna be able to help. Sharing something that's sad just for the sake of it is not useful.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings49:01

       Final one, then, quick fire. Who's the single most helpful investor you've had?

    9. ABAlex Bouaziz49:04

       Oh, I have a lot. Uh, it depends what you need to ask me for. So like-

    10. HSHarry Stebbings49:07

        Okay. Let's say, let's say something's really gone wrong, so just, and you just need support, your genuine first call. Like, mine is a guy, Mark Evans, who's an amazing man in London.

    11. ABAlex Bouaziz49:16

        Yeah. It's like, you know, I have, you know, I'm lucky enough, for example, Andreessen has a big enough position that I get to talk to Ben every month, right? I actually have a call with him right a- right after you, I think. So, uh, you know, he's super helpful in terms of, like, the big decisions we're making. Maybe you haven't heard of him, but like, um, there's a guy called Anthony from a fund called Green Bay Ventures, right? Like-

    12. HSHarry Stebbings49:33

        Anthony Schiller? Yeah.

    13. ABAlex Bouaziz49:35

        I freaking love Anthony. He's the type of guy where, like, you know, he's the only person I actually trust, I can commiserate with when something actually goes wrong, so that's super helpful (laughs) . Uh, so Anthony's a beast, right? Like, I wouldn't... You know, I'm very lucky because he's very picky in terms of where he invests because he deeply, like, commits to the company and I think, you know, he's become, um, you know, a lot of my investors are great but they're busy and this, like, he's really become a friend and, uh, yeah, that's something, it's very, he's a very, uh, important person for us.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings50:00

        He is a savage. Um, okay, we're gonna do a quick fire round, my friend.

    15. ABAlex Bouaziz50:04

        Let's do it, actually.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings50:04

        I'm gonna, I'm gonna say a short statement and you give me your immediate thoughts. That sound okay?

    17. ABAlex Bouaziz50:08

        Sure. I'm scared of what my brain's gonna come up with, but sure.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings50:10

        Okay. So work-life balance, do we live in an entitled generation?

    19. ABAlex Bouaziz50:14

        100% entitled.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings50:16

        Why?

    21. ABAlex Bouaziz50:17

        Because there's an age for everything. And it's fine if you value work-life balance, that's something important for you, that's great. I think when you're building your career and when there's a lot of things to

18. 50:26 – 54:17

    Quick Fire Round

    1. ABAlex Bouaziz50:26

       do, you should work freaking hard because nothing's gonna be a handout.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings50:29

       What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

    3. ABAlex Bouaziz50:32

       Work-life balance. Uh, I think there's a stage in your life where it's important for you to take a step back and decide where you put your time and being able to prioritize some of the things that are important. Uh, not saying I got to that stage, but I think there's a few things that I realized on that front where I needed to put a bit more thought into a bit more prioritization here and there.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings50:48

       What's the most painful lesson that you've been through, but you're also pleased to have been through because of the lessons?

    5. ABAlex Bouaziz50:53

       We almost had very early on a showstopper on one of our key products because one of the person I hired, I knew was the wrong hire. I let them continue for a couple months too long. I should have, uh, been a bit stronger and cut them. They had everything on paper, like big resume, big company, supposed to be really good. So I was like, "Give them two, three months to figure it out." And, you know, the speed at which we were evolving at and we were iterating and, like, the big wall that was coming to us if we weren't gonna cut that person, it was a near miss for us, for sure.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings51:22

       Do boards really add value?

    7. ABAlex Bouaziz51:24

       Depends on the stage of the company. Depends how well the company is doing. If the company is doing really well, the board is here to be supportive and helps you get, you know, the bigger customers and maybe helps you see what you don't see. But at the same time, if you're moving really, really fast, it's hard for people to just have a strong opinion on a company that they sit once a quarter in, right? Um, if you're not doing as well, I think this is where your board adds the most value because assuming they have your best interest at heart, which is not always the case, thankfully it is at Deel, you know, I think they're able to navigate you. And, uh, yeah, I think Ben said it a couple times, uh, I don't think a company can be successful without their founders, so helping founders through that is super important.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings52:00

       What would you most like to change about the world of venture?

    9. ABAlex Bouaziz52:03

       I still think people have a bit of that mindset of like, uh, Silicon Valley companies are the best in the world and they are the only one that can be successful. I think it changed a little bit during COVID and I think hopefully we're the living proof of that being changed. But, uh, you know, I still think there's a couple funds that are a bit ... They're not r- taking the risk approach of funding people that are really hungry from places where they could really build meaningful businesses. And, uh, yeah, I hope that changes.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings52:25

        Penultimate one. When you look at your existing angel portfolio, if you could put all of your money into one, which would you put it in?

    11. ABAlex Bouaziz52:32

        Well, at what stage? At the current valuation or the last valuations (laughs) ?

    12. HSHarry Stebbings52:36

        At the current valuation.

    13. ABAlex Bouaziz52:38

        I still think Kalshi and Tariq, you know, there's an episode with him, right? I still think he's got something amazing and he's got a one in a lifetime company, but he still has to execute a lot before he gets there. So I think maybe, ideally, at the valuation from before (laughs) .

    14. HSHarry Stebbings52:56

        (laughs)

    15. ABAlex Bouaziz52:56

        Uh, probably Kalshi or ClickHouse. I don't know if you've heard of them. I did at the valuation from before as well, but ClickHouse led by Aaron Katz, he's a, he's a savage in every way. He's really, really good. You should probably talk to him. Uh, they are... I think they can build an iconic company that can properly compete with AWS.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings53:15

        I love that. I'll add that. Um, final one, my friend. Next five years for you. Fuck, it's 2028. Where are you then? Where's Deel then? Are we public? Are we not public? What do you think?

    17. ABAlex Bouaziz53:26

        I think we'll see. It's hard to, to tell. And I think going public is just a milestone in the journey, right? So like, uh, here's your politician answer. We'll see.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings53:32

        (laughs) I was about to say, talebent?

    19. ABAlex Bouaziz53:33

        We'll s- we'll se- we'll se- we'll see where we go on that front. I think right now, unless, uh, you know, Microsoft or SAP, m- more Microsoft decides they want to get into HR, I don't see anyone being able to, to bring us in. But, uh, I, you know, we're very excited to build, um, Deel into helping hundreds of millions of people, right? And that's, uh, that's not a political answer. That's actually where we want to get to, right? And I think we have a very unique opportunity of, uh, breaking down a bit of those, uh, those borders where, you know, I think a lot of people won't have to completely change their life for jobs anymore. They'll be able to work for the best companies regardless of their, you know, where they were from, right? And, uh, that's something I'm super excited about.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings54:08

        Alex, I've absolutely loved this, man. You are such a star. Thank you so much and you've been brilliant on the show.

    21. ABAlex Bouaziz54:14

        Thank you so much. I really appreciate it and, uh, chat next year at some point.

Episode duration: 54:17