Ariel Cohen: The Death of Salesforce; How OpenAI is Changing the Travel Industry | 20VC #975

1. 0:00 – 3:16

   Learning New Skills in Today’s World

   1. ACAriel Cohen0:00

      ... I would say maybe AI is eating the world, and eating software, and companies that will not join the party will not be around. (instrumental music)

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:07

      Ariel, I am so excited for this. It's been quite a few years now. So first, thank you so much for joining me again.

   3. ACAriel Cohen0:13

      Thank you. I'm so happy to be here again, and I'm always listening, uh, to you, uh, really, uh, interviewing really smart people. And it's really, really interesting to hear you and also Dave kind of, eh, talking with you. I recently, uh, you know, eh, listened to your Jeff Jordan, eh, one, and it was really fascinating.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:33

      That's very, very kind. I'll pay you later. Um-

   5. ACAriel Cohen0:35

      (laughs)

   6. HSHarry Stebbings0:35

      ... but we were talking beforehand. You said to me, you know, school and university, you didn't really go to that many lectures or lessons. I was just intrigued like, why?

   7. ACAriel Cohen0:46

      I... You know, it's interesting. I'm the, the type of person that I am, I can learn stuff by myself, but I can only learn stuff that really, really interests me. And-

   8. HSHarry Stebbings0:57

      Mm-hmm.

   9. ACAriel Cohen0:57

      ... the reality is that I think that most of the things that you learn at school and universities, they're just not interesting. Uh, there are things that, like, you know, like, for example, some case studies, uh, that you're gonna go through, and I was, I could be so much fascinated by that, by then I go- I can go all in. So for me, the way that I can learn, it's only if, eh, it interests me. If it's not, I cannot really study it. And that was kind of my school, my school life. I was actually, eh, an extremely average student. But ev- It's really average, right? So I could either have, like, really, really, really good, like, straight A, but on the, like, really good, eh, side of it, or I would totally fail, and it's really based on, eh, the way that kind of maybe my brain works. If it, if it gets my interest, I would geek out and learn everything about it. If it doesn't, you cannot get me even, eh, starting to get interested in this.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings1:51

       It's totally the same as me. Gosh, does that impact how you advise your children when it comes to how they pick up and learn new things?

   11. ACAriel Cohen2:00

       100%. So I have three kids. Uh, two of them, th- they are twins. Eh, a boy and a girl. They are 15, right? So they are starting to think, you know, what will they do next and, eh, and so on. And one of the things that I've told them, "Hey, do whatever you want to, but my advice to you, don't even at age 18 have this pressure to go to college, because I don't think that you know, eh, what you really want to do with your life at age 18." And I know that a lot of t- eh, people are doing, eh, skip year. And I like traveling, and a lot of my conclusions are happening while I'm traveling and meeting people. So my advice to them, what you're gonna do with your life and school and all of these things, uh, it will get figured out. But first, kind of, you know, take the time to really, uh, learn, to really understand what, eh, you know, what interests you. And I think that in any case, we are in such a interesting, eh, time in our lives with the, the development, and I know that we're gonna talk about it, but with the developments of, eh, machine learning and AI. Eh, so I'm not even sure that the things that we are learning today are not kind of obsolete. So, uh, my advice to them, don't take this too seriously. Do whatever you want to with your life.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings3:10

       My question is, you said there about kind of, like, things getting outdated in what you learn. I think there are core management

2. 3:16 – 8:55

   Managerial Lesson Learned from StreamOnce

   1. HSHarry Stebbings3:16

      principles which stay the same actually, and I d- I was intrigued. When you look back to StreamOnce, your prior company, uh, what management principles did you take with you from there to TripActions that really worked? And what did you go, "That didn't work, let's leave them behind"?

   2. ACAriel Cohen3:33

      Yeah. StreamOnce was never, you know, an organization that I needed to really scale, so it was very small. We sold it very early, after, eh, nine months. Uh, we had basically two customers there. Uh, so, uh, definitely didn't make any impact. Like, you know, if you kind of, as a founder, you want to make an impact and, and to change something that, eh... And, and founders really want to do it to change something meaningful. Uh, StreamOnce, they- they didn't achieve it, and I think there is a reason for that. And it's ev- It's not really about management, because again, there was not a lot to manage. It was really small. It was, uh, about what type of startups you want to start with. And we went on a market that was not proven and fairly small, uh, so in a lot of ways, we've invented a problem that nobody needed us to solve. And I think that, eh, a lot of, eh, kind of tech geeks, eh, sometimes we do that, right? Like, eh, starting... H- Y- you know, the technology was amazing. Uh, so we loved the technology and we kind of played with it, and we were kind of very impressed by ourselves, right? (laughs)

   3. HSHarry Stebbings4:34

      (laughs)

   4. ACAriel Cohen4:34

      But nobody needed us to solve that problem, and to begin with, the market was not proven or even important. Um, and I think that's what we, that's why we failed, right? We eventually sold the company, and, eh, financially, maybe it was a good deal. But for m- again, eh, building something that lasts for generations, which I think that, eh, TripActions, and now Navan, we'll talk about the rebranding, uh, Navan is that type of company, we are very, very far from having it.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings5:02

      So I think, eh, secretly, I've always wanted to be a psychologist, but we mentioned children there, and you know, psychologists always give everything to, you know, your childhood and how it impacted you. I, I do think everyone is a function of their histories. Uh, what do you think you're running from, Ariel?

   6. ACAriel Cohen5:17

      Yeah, it seems to... I, I think that, you know, if you take a step back and it kind of leads to our founding story at eh, TripActions. Um, we wanted to innovate and to create this, eh, magic between the company's needs. So, you know, stuff like reporting and compliance, all of the company's efficiency, and the employees' needs, and really not compromise. Really creating, ah, this innovation around this magic that you can create between the two. So creating software that people really, really like. And I think that there are a lot of companies out there, um, I think the one that comes in mind always, are, eh, for me, Salesforce and SAP, which are not innovating, meh. I think the last time that SAP innovated something was in the '90s, and the last time that eh, that Salesforce innovated was in the beginning of, eh, 2000.... and, and I'm looking at this and besides the fact that I think it's embarrassing that companies that are kind of, uh, located in the middle of, uh, you know, Silicon Valley have not been innovating, uh, for years. Um, it's also what I'm learning, uh, you know, learning from, right? Uh, the one thing that scares me is that one day, uh, Navan will be that kind of a company, a company that the only way that you innovate through M&A and through using kind of your, uh, market dynamics and your power in the market to basically sell, and this really scares me.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings6:40

      Okay, so just jumping on that, I'm too interested. How do you retain innovation, speed, agility with scale? I mean, how many people are at Trip- uh, Navan now?

   8. ACAriel Cohen6:50

      We have 3,000, uh, employees globally.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings6:52

      3000? How do you retain that innovation and agility?

   10. ACAriel Cohen6:55

       I think it's about decisions. I think, uh, you know, we kind of starting to feel, uh, comfortable with the travel innovation, right? That we really thought that we figured out how to create this magic between the company and the employees, how to book fast, how to support yourselves fast. And Elad and I, uh, looked at this. Elad is my co-founder, uh, and this was like five years ago, and we said, "You know, if we would have started TripActions! again, we wouldn't do it like that." And out of this came everything that, uh, we did around payments and expense management. And two years ago, uh, we looked at this again and this is, uh... and we said, "You know, today with machine learning, you can achieve a much better service by servicing people fast." Like, you know, you cancel your flight, are you going to get your tickets back or not? It's very hard to automate it, but we've managed to automate it with a lot of usage of, uh, of smartness inside, uh... we are calling it... we have an internal board, we call it Katie's IQ, and this is this thing that keeps learning and therefore keeps, uh, generating value for the users. So again, we kind of killed what we had and recreated it. So I think you keep this innovation if you have the courage, first of all, to look at the mirror and come and say, "Okay, what we had, uh, done up until now was relevant back then with our understanding that... and the technology back then, but maybe it's time to kill it and change it." And we've been doing it times and again here. Actually, my co-founder right now is running, uh, two projects that are making, uh, basically a lot of what we've done to date obsolete, and I think that's how you maintain innovation.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings8:35

       (laughs) I'm writing so I don't... when you get to my age, you forget things, and so you write on your hand and then you will remember. Uh, y- you mentioned there, you kn-

   12. ACAriel Cohen8:42

       (laughs) I think I'm older than you. I'm not sure, but I think I'm way older than you, so maybe, you know...

   13. HSHarry Stebbings8:47

       But, but, but you're, but you're a silver fox, my friend. Um-

   14. ACAriel Cohen8:49

       (laughs)

   15. HSHarry Stebbings8:50

       Uh, uh, my, my first question was, you mentioned some of the additional products you created over time,

3. 8:55 – 16:30

   How to Prioritize Product Development

   1. HSHarry Stebbings8:55

      how do you determine as a leader and strategist between an additional product that you should chase and should do versus a distraction? It's so easy to be distracted. What's the difference between a product you should do and a distraction?

   2. ACAriel Cohen9:09

      You know, I think people by default are afraid of a change and they will do whatever it takes to not make a change. Even here in Silicon Valley inside the tech companies. And, you know, even last night at 8:00 PM, uh, there was a designer that actually showed me yesterday a design of... for the new unified app of... uh, we are actually releasing as part of the Navan rebranding. Uh, we are consolidating all of our technology to one, uh, technologies to one super app, uh, that will basically service you around the travel, payment, expenses, your personal trips, everything, and everybody can use it. And we have a design, the app looks amazing, uh, you will see it on February 7th, uh, we, we all been, uh, been using it here in TripActions! or inside Navan. And then this designer showed me really interesting design, like something much better, and we are two weeks before the release. So what do you do, right? And, and, you know, I've said... I've told the team, "Hey, I, I cannot unsee it. (laughs) I saw this design now, I cannot unsee it. That should be our design." And this is scary, like changing everything in the last minute is, is scary. But then here's the thing, you know, we've agreed it with the team that we'll do this change, but then for quite some time we'll not do more design changes because now you want to focus on something else, other innovation in, uh, in Navan, uh, other two big projects that, uh, we have here. So this is kind of scary because I've said, "Hey, it's all about design, it's all about this thing," but now actually I'm gonna deprioritize it in three weeks from now and do something else. And I think having the ability to make these decisions and bring the team with... the team with you, but not be... and, and not having this fear that the team will object to this, I think this is in the heart of companies that are innovating, but it's also in the heart of companies that are not innovating. You're sometimes too much afraid as a company, uh, from the change.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings11:12

      How do you get over being afraid? How do you bring people with you as well? Also, when you're deprioritizing something, you don't want those that were prioritized on it to feel like the unloved child.

   4. ACAriel Cohen11:23

      Yeah.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings11:23

      How do you get over that?

   6. ACAriel Cohen11:25

      First of all, you never give up. And I- I'll, I'll, I'll give you an interesting anecdote. Um, you know, COVID started, um, and we, uh, kind of lost all of our revenue, but decided to continue to be in the market and sell, do M&A, raise money, but the most important thing, innovate. Like continue to innovate. Uh, but back then I've decided that the innovation would not necessarily be just about travel, but we're actually gonna shift resources, we're gonna shift des- designers, product managers, uh, developers, uh, from the travel side to the expense management, uh, side. And that was a decision that actually the employees, uh, uh, back then didn't like, okay? From a lot of various reasons. Again, we've talked about being afraid of change. So in that process, I actually lost most of my product team, okay?... and, you know, two years afterwards, I started to look at the data that showed how much both are picking up, like travel and expense management, and I remember that, uh, I told, uh, my co-founder, "You know, sometimes you need to do these decisions even if it means that you're gonna lose the team in the process because that was the right decision." So sometimes you can bring people along with you, right? In most of the cases, uh, that's what we, that's what I do, and you can do that. But you cannot be afraid of the consequences, of the implications of doing what you believe, um, uh, intuitively deep inside that it's the right thing for the company.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings13:03

      Speaking of doing what you believe and the right thing for the company, you also mentioned killing projects. How do you determine which projects to kill?

   8. ACAriel Cohen13:11

      Yeah. Fir- first of all, you know, I think that, uh, I will bring it back to, uh, maybe kind of the lean startups kind of concept, right? And I think what I really like, uh, in this concept is that you start something with a hypothesis and you start to measure it, right? And your entire purpose is not to develop the product but to actually examine your hypothesis. And I think if you are strict about it, you cannot lie to yourself, right? You have an hypothesis. You're saying, "Hey, this is what I think that this product will do, or this feature will do, or this project will do, and this is how we think that the market will accept it." And then you put the right metrics and measurements in place, and you keep asking the question, "Is it happening or not? Is it happening or not?" And you can do some pivots, and you can do some, uh... right? So it doesn't mean that your first implementation will be the right one. But if you operate like that, it's not that hard to bring the team into a room and say, "Do you know we had this hypothesis? Uh, it doesn't work. Let's move on. Let's do something else." I think if you do that, uh, you are, you are very capable of kind of, uh, killing projects.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings14:15

      How long do y- how long do you give it? 'Cause there's that kind of, um... you know, you can't do it too quickly, you need enough data, but then too many founders are afraid to kill it and give it way too long.

   10. ACAriel Cohen14:25

       I think it's ba- it's based on, uh, how important it is for your strategy. If it is fundamental for your strategy, you've defined your strategy as a company and you're saying this thing... I'll give you an example. Uh, we give, uh, rewards for employees to save company money. So you come to our product, you try to book a handle there, uh, it's in policy, and then we are telling you, "But if you book something that is lower than the policy, we're gonna give you rewards." Right? It's part of the Navan Rewards program. We are rewarding you to use us. We are re- we are rewarding you to save company money. Uh, we also... you are also getting your, uh, you know, your Marriott, uh, loyalty points. Uh, so you get it all, right? You... I'm calling it, uh, you triple dip, right? Or with your credit card if even you four... you, you, you dip four times. So you are happy as an employee. Uh, but when we started the company, uh, we had the same idea. Nobody used it. Nobody used it. Nobody would click on the stuff that will give you the rewards, and nobody would actually redeem these rewards. So now the question is, are you pivoting or are you doubling down? And this, uh, feature, today feature, back then it was the entire company, was so important for, for our strategy that even though the hypothesis was incorrect, right? Nobody was using it, we were measuring it, we decided to double down. We've decided to continue to pivot, to change the UI, to change the way that we are describing it, to change the algorithm, and to continue to double down. And eventually, everybody started, started to use it. So sometimes it is so important to your s- to, to what you do, to your set of belief that you double down, double down, double down, and eventually, you know, either you run out of cash (laughs) or you, you know, or you, you pivot or you're being successful. And, and sometimes, you know, it's more clear that, you know, you did it, you tried it, but it's okay to kind of, uh, give it up and to move on.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings16:25

       Ariel, you mentioned, you know, the time when COVID happened and your revenues went to zero. I,

4. 16:30 – 20:48

   How TripActions Bounced Back After COVID Shutdown

   1. HSHarry Stebbings16:30

      I just wanna understand, like take me to that moment. How did you respond? That is a "oh, shit" moment.

   2. ACAriel Cohen16:38

      Yeah. Uh, fir- first, first of all, you know, um, I personally, and sometimes, you know, you could perceive it as maybe cold, uh, I can, uh, can move, uh, on fast. I can come and say to myself, "Okay, the, the, the plan that we had, the entire company that we had, okay, is not relevant right now." Okay? And so what does it mean? For me... and I'll get back to... I will mention this magic again and again because it really the call of, uh, of Navan. For me, you know, March 2020, we lost all of our revenue. Obvious to me that we lost product market fit overnight. Nobody needs this product anymore, right? So for me, it got, it got back to the basic question. I do believe that there is this new category of business software that is designed for people, basically creating people-centric product. That's something that I believe, like, uh, we started the, uh, uh, the company with that belief, and I do believe that travel and expense is an important part of this, and I also think that people will travel in two years from now, right? Again, March 2020. So all of my beliefs are still there. This new type of software, T&E is important, people will travel in the future. So now what do you do? Do you kill the company, do you hibernate the company, or do you double down? And if it's just random, probably you need to hibernate the company or kill it. But if you still have this set of beliefs and everybody around you, your investors, a big part of your employees still believe in it, you carry on. You continue. So you make some tough decisions, you cut costs. You know, we did like a, a, a, pretty big layoffs. We've cut a lot of other costs. But on the same time, double down on innovation, double down on our go-to-market.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings18:28

      ... can I be blunt?

   4. ACAriel Cohen18:30

      Yeah.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings18:30

      H- yeah, how did you expand the business and how did you raise at, you know, like double (laughs) valuation for, like at the time, predominantly a travel company in the middle of COVID? Like I, it- it's incredible, but how?

   6. ACAriel Cohen18:45

      It comes down to this set of beliefs, right? So I remember, you know, in March 2020, the issue was not only that, uh, obviously we were going down very fast, but at that point, people thought that the entire economy will go down. Then, you know, there was-

   7. HSHarry Stebbings18:58

      Yeah.

   8. ACAriel Cohen18:58

      ... a change, and they, and- and tech I think actually led the way to, uh, of the economy to actually show that you're not going down as a, as an economy, right? Um, but at that point, there was so much pessimism and, you know, I came to the team and to the board and was saying, "Okay, we're gonna definitely stabilize. We're gonna cut costs, right? No, no, no question about it. But we're gonna stay in the market and sell travel, right?" And in fact, we're gonna expand to expense management and sell, sell to NE, TNE. And of course, the reaction would be... Oh, and we're gonna raise money. And of course, the reaction would be, "But how you gonna do that? You're gonna call the CFO right now and tell them you, you need to kind of, uh, use, uh, you know, uh, trip actions for, uh, for, uh, for travel and they will tell you, 'We are not traveling right now.' What are you talking about?" But think about it, if you convince them, it was not hard to convince, that travel will come back, what's better than to do change management from this antiquated, you know, Comcare and GBT, you know, A- American Express GBT? Nobody likes it. The only reason that people are staying with that is change management. So what... it's the best time to do it. Nobody's traveling, nobody's expensing, change now. And that was our pitch. And in April, it was very hard to do that because nobody would even pick up the phone. I think people were afraid that, you know, for their life. But May, June, July, as, as, uh, things started to open up, um, uh, travel was still not happening, but people would sign up with us. Our biggest customers would sign up with us, like customers like Netflix, Heineken, Adobe, signed with us on these times where people were not traveling because again, change management, the easy thing to do at that time.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings20:44

      So and so, just so I understand. So then you see change management like, "Now's

5. 20:48 – 28:56

   Raising a New Round at a $9.2BN Valuation

   1. HSHarry Stebbings20:48

      the time." You see logos convert, like amazing logos like you mentioned, and then you go to the board and say, "Hey, look at our sales. Look at our logos. They're up into the right. We wanna raise a new round." How did that capitalize a new round?

   2. ACAriel Cohen21:01

      Yes. So I actually went to, uh, and back then, uh, uh, Greenoaks and, uh, and Neil actually looked at this and, you know, it was the first time. I didn't know him before, but he looked at this and I basically told him that story, "Hey, listen, we don't have revenue. We are, uh, burning a lot of cash because the company..." Think about a fairly scaled, uh, company.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings21:23

      Yeah.

   4. ACAriel Cohen21:23

      "But here is our plan and if you believe in our, like, ability to execute, the only thing that you will, uh, need to bet on here is that travel will come back. So just decide. Do you think that travel will come back or not? If you think that travel will come back, uh, I think we are a really good investment right now." Because obviously, it was in better terms than what you would've gotten, uh, if COVID was not around us. And that resonated. Now, I will tell you, you know, we've talked probably with 30 investors. 28 of them told us that, uh, travel will never come back. Uh, I've talked with one of the b- you know, the biggest, uh, VCs here in Silicon Valley, right, and a very famous one and known one and, uh, and you know, very good conversation. But they told me eventually, "You know what? We actually don't think that travel will come back." Uh, and I said, "Okay, so if travel will not come back, it will be (laughs) very hard for me to make a case for you to invest in the company," right? So, so but the ones that had the courage back then to, I think it was only one bet, will travel come back? And by the way, will it come back before we will go under or run out of cash? But if-

   5. HSHarry Stebbings22:30

      What, what-

   6. ACAriel Cohen22:30

      ... right?

   7. HSHarry Stebbings22:31

      Well, uh, yes, uh, and I, uh, our... This is our second show, so I can be more direct with you. Yes, I agree. But at 9.2 billion, as an investor as I am... I love this pen on my hand. Um, like you have to see a $40 billion company to, to get me excited. I need at least-

   8. ACAriel Cohen22:50

      Yeah. Yeah, fir- first of all, the 9.2 billion, this is even more interesting, only came recently, so that came, uh, actually in the middle of recession after all of the collection. Back then, we actually... So as the vaccine came, we actually did a $5 billion round, still an up round to pre-COVID. But again, it was kind of a up round, but small, small kind of addition back then really based on what happens if travel will come back. Can definitely ha- ask how, uh, MG and our current investors invested in 9.2 billion when the entire market is correcting, and can it be $40 billion business? Listen, people are spending $1 trillion on travel a year. Most of this is not managed. Why is it not managed? Because nobody like to use, uh, Comcare and American Express. So your employees are all over the place. Half of the employees are booking outside, you don't have control on it, you're always frustrated by this. Everybody are fighting all day long. We think and our investor thinks that we can capture the entire market, the entire market for business travel and the entire market for expense. And if you take, uh, $1 trillion of spend and you think about how much money is out there, nine, $9 billion is more, uh, suitable to the execution of the company today. But if you look forward three years, four years, five years, in five years from now, nobody's using, going to use Comcare and Amex. Nobody... By the way, nobody's going to use Salesforce. Nobody's going to use software that makes you...... eh, put something inside a ticket, and then it goes through a workflow, and then, I don't know, something happens. And the really interesting part of this, you need to make to force it. Your employees, your salespeople need to use Salesforce. Your travelers need to use Concur. Nobody is going to do this thing. People today are asking for something else and the technology, especially with the mobile NAI, allows for it to happen.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings24:49

      So I- I love this like as a path to a trillion. My question is the other bet maybe, and I'm just like ideating with you, the other bet maybe is will Ariel and Navan or TripActions at the time, be able to make the transition from point solution or more of a point solution to, as you described earlier, a super app? What do you think are the biggest challenges in moving from point solution to super app?

   10. ACAriel Cohen25:12

       Yeah. And it's kind of, you know, you should probably ask me, I'll do your job for a second. I'm joking. But if-

   11. HSHarry Stebbings25:17

       (laughs)

   12. ACAriel Cohen25:17

       ... you should probably ask me, "Why, why even changing the name?" Because TripActions, the brand is good and people actually know the company. So why even do that? And, I think, you know, this-

   13. HSHarry Stebbings25:27

       Yeah. Yeah. Ariel, oh, no, this is my job. Why are you changing the name, Ariel? Great question. (laughs)

   14. ACAriel Cohen25:31

       Exactly. I, I know, I, I know, like, and I was saying it because I think it is related to your question. But we wanted to actually create this new category, to show the way, to lead the way and show all of the companies around, you have to develop a new kind of software. A software that is more inviting. So Navan, just the name, it's about navigation, navigating the world, and about avant, right? This is really where the name is, eh, coming, eh, from. And it's a palindrome, right? So it's really inviting you from all, all, all directions, right? So it's really about us. It's about us inviting all of the employees, all of the, of, all over the world to use Navan, inviting the company to achieve all of its goals, uh, all of the company's goals while they're, like, the employees are participating in it. So it's, it's magical. That's, this is really, I, the way that I, I'm thinking about Navan. And if you think about it in these terms, it's not on- not only a point solution, it really solves a really big problem. Companies are spending 7% of their entire, eh, budget on T&E, so it solves a really big problem, but it also shows the way to companies that lost their way, to companies like Salesforce, like SAP. It shows the way for all of the companies, eh, around the world that today, you can create really good software for the company and the employees.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings26:51

       What are the big challenges in moving from a more point solution to that super app?

   16. ACAriel Cohen26:56

       Yeah. I think first of all, it's to bring it all together, right? So from a, you know, thinking about it from a design perspective, uh, you know, you are booking a trip, right? And today, you're gonna book a hotel, car, and whatever, you know, and you're gonna do it again and again and again. So I travel a lot to London. We have a... Our biggest team actually is in, eh, of, of Navan is in London. And I'm traveling there a lot. And here's the thing, I'm always taking the same flight, I'm always staying in the same hotel, and guess what? I'm always going to the same coffee in the morning, and I'm kind of visiting the same kind of restaurants. So why do I need to book it again and again and again and again and again? (laughs) It doesn't make any sense. I have all of this data inside the, eh, inside Navan. We know that. Our machine, eh, learning algorithm, which we've implemented six years ago, knows that. So why not just asking you, "You know, pre-book the trip. Like, the trip that you are always doing, just book it." And maybe, you know, the, the availability will be slightly different or the pricing will be slightly different. All of these things are easy problems to solve from a, a, you know, from a compute perspective. So I think that that's kind of a, the, the, the point about the super app. Um, I think that we are the best, and I mean it, the best all in one travel, expense, and payment solution. So we are the best by far. Um, bring it together to one app, but not just to one app to have one app. Like, everybody can slap some things that are not connected into one app, but bring it to one experience, experience that create value to both sides. And, you know, I talked about the employee, the traveler, but think about from a company perspective, the CFO can get full visibility all the time, real-time, to any type of expense. Like, any type of expense, this is something that is so valuable in any time, but think about it in recession.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings28:46

       Can I ask you, uh... (laughs) Uh, again, I, I, I've, uh, got more opinionated over time, uh, apologies.

   18. ACAriel Cohen28:52

       (laughs)

   19. HSHarry Stebbings28:52

       Uh, when you think about Concur and AmEx, do you think they're just

6. 28:56 – 36:08

   How will your competition respond?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings28:56

      gonna sit back and go, "Ah, fine, let Navan go do this. They're eating our lunch." Or how do they respond?

   2. ACAriel Cohen29:04

      Yeah, it kind of starts with what we said, eh, earlier. Uh, in the '90s, eh, you know, SAP and Concur, eh, innovated something, right? It was the first, I think generation of, eh, of IT software. This process and, eh, how do you get efficiency by running workflow and some approvals. And basically, how do you treat people? Like packages. Like, you know, I'm gonna... Right? And, and it's, it's not that surprising that Concur found themself as part of SAP. It's like you are treating people like packages. And, and probably back then, that was innovation, right? Uh, but the world has moved on, and these companies have lost the way around innovation. They don't know anymore how to innovate. They, they cannot attract the people that know how to innovate. Nobody would expect, eh, you know, OpenAI to be a, a research project inside SAP, right? So, so these companies actually, I would argue, will just, eh, die. That's what will happen. Because innovation happens, these companies lost their way around innovation, uh, and they will just die because they are not relevant, you know. Like, we know, you know, we, we joked that we are old, right? So we know a set of companies from the '90s, take Siebel, eh, for example, you know, from the '90s that are no longer around, right? Why aren't they around? Because, eh, you know, Benioff came-... a- in, uh, the beginning of, uh, like, uh, 20, 22 years ago, and by the way, lied, right? He was saying no software, right? He was lying to people. He wa- like, you know (laughs) , there is software. There are developers inside Salesforce and they just installed it in a computer that is in a bigger data center than your own frame data center, right? So he kind of lied, but he got this attention. And how do I know that he's lied- lied? Because I know that we are investing so much in software, so much in innovation, so there is software, and this software is driving the organization, eh, eh, eh, today. So I think these companies that innovated something in the '90s, uh, Siebel, eh, SAP Concur, and these companies that innovated something in, uh, 10 years later, Salesforce, uh, ServiceNow, you know, Workday, innovated back then. But then now, people want software like OpenAI, like Slack, like Navan. And by the way, look at the Slack story inside Salesforce. It doesn't really survive there, right? You can see by the minute how this software is becoming worse and worse and worse and worse under kind of a new, eh, type of, eh, company. So I actually really think that, eh, you know, you ask will they respond or not? I don't think that they'll be around.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings31:40

      Can I ask, do they not just become sales machines though? They invest so heavily in sales and then change management and stickiness is strong, and that's why they keep growing. Like, look at the numbers. They keep growing.

   4. ACAriel Cohen31:53

      Yeah. Fa- personally if I look at the numbers, I think, eh, both s- eh, both Salesforce and SAP actually specifically now are not growing, and in fact declining, right? (laughs) So that's specifically now. Eh, I think they do grow through M&A. That's the only power that they have. So it's basically M&A and the channel. I'm gonna use my connection into, into IT, into enterprise IT, uh, to continue and push whatever I, eh, purchased yesterday, uh, through this channel to that. And you know, I used to work for HP, and that was the play there, right? The HP software, that was the play. Let's keep, eh, buying companies and then push them through the channel. Over time, there are massive changes, right? For HP, it was the entire cloud. There are massive changes and you are not going to survive it. And I think the massive change right now, again, powered by AI, is that, uh, companies want, eh, to have software that solves this problem without the need to enforce it, without the need to fight with their employees all day long. So I think, yeah, I respect actually their, eh, channel, these sales organizations that they've created, the ability to do M&A, but eventually over time, innovation, technologies, breakthroughs, always winning.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings33:07

      Can they not buy their way to survival? If they put 20 billion-

   6. ACAriel Cohen33:10

      I don't think so.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings33:11

      You can't... if they put-

   8. ACAriel Cohen33:12

      I don't-

   9. HSHarry Stebbings33:12

      ... $20 billion on the table for Navan.

   10. ACAriel Cohen33:15

       Yeah, we are not for sale and there is a reason for that. And by the way, uh, we've, eh, kind of passed these tests, eh, several times. Other companies could have sent me to retirement few times by just-

   11. HSHarry Stebbings33:25

       Isn't that-

   12. ACAriel Cohen33:25

       ... eh, you know, buying us, and we, we didn't sell because we think that, eh, we have something very, very special, uh, that can change, right, the way that software works in a, in organizations. And eh, and that's why we will not sell. Now, can they buy their, their way? Maybe yes, but you actually see that the answer is no. Like, think about it, the number two and number three in Salesforce, right? One of them is Todd Battlefield, right? One of the best innovators in Silicon Valley, couldn't stay in Salesforce. Every- everybody thought that he would be the CEO of Salesforce, right? And he couldn't stay there, right? And, and again, by the way, I'm a, I'm a Slack customer, and you know, the team right now is looking for alternatives. Not because, eh, you know... we love Slack, but you can see that over time, the search works a little bit, (laughs) eh, you know, worse. The buttons are moving to the wrong places. I care a lot about product and design, and I think it deteriorates over time. So can they buy their way into it? Yes, but to a point. Can they retain the team that made this innovation? They are proving that the answer is n- is no. We cannot retain this team, therefore they're gonna lose the entire product.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings34:31

       So what pitfalls do you have to avoid to prevent you from becoming the next Concur or Amex? (laughs)

   14. ACAriel Cohen34:38

       You are, eh, asking about my nightmare. My nightmare-

   15. HSHarry Stebbings34:42

       (laughs)

   16. ACAriel Cohen34:42

       Right? My nightmare... I think there are probably, I don't know, a handful of companies that are capable of continuing to innovate in their 20th, 30th, 40th d- year, eh, anniversary. Eh, I think, by the way, look at Microsoft. It's so amazing how they kind of came out of a- (laughs) like now they are like... people are talking about them right now as Google. It's unbelievable, right? And I think that, again, there are a handful of companies, and by the way, leaders, and I think you know I've mentioned that innovation comes with leadership, uh, leaders can, that can pull this off. And I hope that we will be able to pull this off, to continue to innovate even in our, our 10 years anniversary and in our 20th a- eh, anniversary and so on. And you know, it's not innovation for the sake of innovation. It's innovation to cre- eh, that creates value, uh, magic, eh, eh, for our customers, right? And for the users that are using, eh, eh, Navan. And if we do that, I'll be very happy, but, you know, that's actually my nightmare, that we will not be like that and we'll become an SAP exactly in the same way that Salesforce became SAP. You know, eh, Salesforce, right, were the opposite of SAP, right? They were like... I think that cannot stand them. Eh, but over time they became SAP, and I hope that we'll never become a Concur and a, and American Express.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings36:02

       You spoke about kind of product innovation driving value there. You chose to integrate OpenAI into your chatbot.

7. 36:08 – 48:40

   How Navan Is Using AI & Machine Learning

   1. HSHarry Stebbings36:08

      Talk to me about that decision. What does it mean for the business? Why did you make that decision? And, and I guess, (laughs) broad, how do you see the future of AI integration into your company?

   2. ACAriel Cohen36:18

      Welcome to the party, right? Eh, Elad, my co-founder will go to events, eh, six, seven years ago, a lo- a lot in the travel industry, and we'll talk about eh, machine learning and AI, and people looked at him as like, "What, what is he talking about?" And then we were trying to explain it in value terms, so we'd say, you know, "Our, our search, when you, eh, try to book a trip in TripActions, uh, it takes you five minutes to do that because we know what would be the first three things that probably you're gonna select."... right? So we always said it, and I don't know if people fully, fully understand it. Uh, a year ago, we launched our first, uh, bot. We are now naming this bot Ava, which is kind of part of Navan. And that bot today handles 30% of our in- our, our support interactions. Basically, it- it behaves like a travel agent that will say, change your flight, will handle flight cancellations, will go and get a refund from a hotel. In fact, uh, uh, Navan, Navan's, uh, users, when they check out from a hotel, they actually... they don't need to go to the reception and get the receipt. We are, through a bot that we have, are actually calling the hotel, getting the receipt for them, automatically itemizing it, and automatically expensing it, right? That's how much today, right, uh, our, uh, our technology is effective around, around AI and machine learning. So now, um, uh... and, and all of this was not powered by OpenAI. OpenAI did a huge leapfrog, right? So they basically leapfrogged, uh, uh, above all of the AI technology and machine technology, including ours, right? So getting back to the innovation, would you kill what you have because there was a major development, uh, in, in compute, right? In software development. Uh, so we decided to do it. We decided to kill what we have to use the infrastructure. The bot is the bot, you know. The UI is the UI. The ability to change the flight comes from our API to change the flight, but then to use their technology. And, uh, in, in... the results internally, I think that this, uh, Ava, I think will probably, by the end of the year, will replace 50% of our, our, uh, interactions in the, in the contact center. And I think, uh, by the end of next year, it will replace 90% of it. But here is the cool part. Then there is the 10%. The 10% that solves the really, really, really hard problems. You're stuck somewhere, and somebody really need to help you out, and I think this is where we're gonna actually dedicate all of our agents, to do the stuff that really, uh, makes sense. So again, uh, I'm excited. We got... We're releasing right now in February, uh, uh, the first version of Ava powered by, by, uh, by OpenAI, and it will be amazing.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings39:04

      What makes OpenAI so much more effective than even your internal tools that you built for years, and everyone else's stack? What makes it so much better?

   4. ACAriel Cohen39:13

      Yeah, I, I think, you know, people have a lot of opinions about it. I think it comes down to the dataset. I think that, uh, you know, there was a lot of time, including with us, that was used to train the older AI to be smart, right? So we used to call this thing Ava's IQ. So what is Ava's IQ? It's this... kind of, it's the brain, right? Uh, uh, you do a... You know, we support somebody, and that su- and that support was successful or not. You can measure it through CSAT, through are they going to repeat in calling the call center again, stuff like that. So basically, you need to give the system this signal, was it successful or not, was the answer. So this training, I think, was the old way of doing AI, right? And that's how we operated, and I think that's by the- by the way, how 98% of the companies that did AI did it. I think what OpenAI did is that they can... they proved that if you put a, a huge dataset, right, inside the, inside this thing, magic will happen. I'm not even sure if it... if the... I actually don't know how this magic happens, by the way, but I think that magic will happen. And we see it, right? We started to ask... I'll give you an example of the magic. Uh, you could have gotten to the bot that we had before OpenAI and asked to book The Westin in New York, okay? And what Ava will do at that point, uh, and di- uh, she would ask you, she would ask you, "What do you want to book?" But I just told you, The Westin, right? If you go right now to ChatGPT and ask to book The, The Westin in New York, it will ask you, "In what dates?" Okay? So ChatGPT realized that The Westin is a hotel, right? That's, uh, that's kind of what ChatGPT realized. Our bot, our entire IQ that was trained for years, like, three weeks ago, right, with the old technology would not be able to figure out that The Westin is a hotel, right? So I think that's kind of the essence of it. Uh, it's like they infused it with so much data, and that... by the way, GPT-3, think about GPT-4 and how much more data is there. So they infused it with, with so much data that now magic happens, and that's kind of what we see in real life, right? In the product that I'm using right now, and very soon will be available for all of our customers.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings41:31

      My question is, when we look at public markets, drive to cash flow, uh, drive to profitability and the economics, there's some uncomfortable realities, uh, that you, as a business leader, and me, as an investor, know, and that, that cuts out a lot of costs. And I know that you can absolutely deploy those costs to 10%, but you don't need half of them.

   6. ACAriel Cohen41:54

      Yeah. Uh, I think that, uh, we are running a business. And what we've shown, actually, in the travel industry, that you can run this business today... I'll give you one thing. We usually don't share our financials, but I will give you one number. Uh, with pretty big numbers, our gross margins today are 75%. Uh, by the end of the year, probably it will get to 80%. Right? So I'm talking about the u-

   7. HSHarry Stebbings42:19

      Whoa, whoa. Well, that, that is, that is high.

   8. ACAriel Cohen42:21

      Exactly. And this is high generally. I think there are some tech companies that are doing better, but it is not a... it's not a thing in services companies, right? So how do you, uh, get this gross margins in a service-oriented business, like in a... and, and usually you don't. By the way, you can look. Some of our competitors are public, and you can look at their, uh, reports. You're talking about 50, 55% gross margins compared to 75 today-... going to 80, maybe e- even 85, 85 is not model deal, but maybe even 85, uh, in the next two to three years. This is highly profitable business, right? If you think about it from a unit economics perspective. So, what does it mean? It means that businesses, like always with innovation, will become more efficient and the business, the businesses which will adopt it will get to see another day. And (laughs) the businesses that will not will vanish. And, you know, there is this famous, uh, Marc Andreessen, I think, blog about software is eating the world. I think software kind of ate the world and the companies that, uh, didn't, uh, e- e- embrace it kind of died. And I think I would say maybe AI is eating the world and, uh, and eating software and companies that will not, uh, kind of join the party will not be around.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings43:35

      Do you worry about having such a core part of the business and margin structure, I'm sure, over time, do you worry about having that provided by an external provider?

   10. ACAriel Cohen43:44

       I think that eventually the bot can do one thing. It can answer questions based on all of the data they, that they have. Eventually, you need to operationalize it. You do need to change that flight, right? You do need to book that flight. You do need to have the supplier's relationships. You do need to do, to have all of these things. So, I think the moat, uh, that we've created is actually not around that technology. The moat is around all of the infrastructure here that allows us to, uh, go globally, to service our customers globally, to provide one T&E report for all of the c- uh, companies that are using us. That's the moat. Now, the other moat is more of a cultural moat. Do you have the courage to keep killing everything that you did because a new technology showed up and connect it to, to our infrastructure? And I think if you do that, uh, whether it's external or internal event, or it's not important, uh, you know, (laughs) you can ask the same question about AWS, right? People used to employ DBAs (laughs) and, and I don't know, a lot of active people that were connecting like some, some, uh, cables to servers and they stopped doing it, so I think it's the same thing.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings44:52

       So, so, uh, I, I look at businesses like kind of machines with levers and when you think about 80%, you know, gross margins on, on yours today, you have a lot of leverage to go down to 60% and put 20% more in marketing brand growth. Like, fucking burn the boats, field, go. Why didn't you do that?

   12. ACAriel Cohen45:14

       So actually, it's interesting, you know, uh, as part of a, of na- of Navan and the rebranding, we are opening our product for everybody and as part of this, uh, so everybody can go and sign up, uh, uh, to the product. As part of this, we are, uh, introducing new cost structure, uh, for different markets. So for example, on the lower end of the market, we are free, right? And that's new. Uh, we are completely free. You go in and you don't need to pay us. So, I think if you are basically talking, "Should I use, uh, my gross margins to reach more people?"

   13. HSHarry Stebbings45:50

       Uh-huh.

   14. ACAriel Cohen45:50

       ... the answer is yes. And that's actually what we are doing. Uh, we are doing another thing. We are actually introducing our own loyalty club, which means costs, right? To make you more loyal to us. So again, how can we do all of these things? Because we've gained over the last eight years, because of our bets on technology, on machine learning, on AI, uh, we've gained a lot of efficiency. And, you know, when I'm working in an airport, I was at... I have to tell you this story. People, uh, people at, at Navan here hate, uh, uh, hearing this story-

   15. HSHarry Stebbings46:23

       (laughs)

   16. ACAriel Cohen46:23

       ... because I cannot stop, uh, uh, mentioning this story recently. I was stuck on an airplane in, uh, in Buenos Aires with my family. The trip kept, uh, getting delayed on the airplane. You sit four hours there eventually and we have a tight connection in Houston and we have already missed the connection, right? So what we gonna do? And I'm using, you know, obviously, uh, the Navan product and I keep getting notifications of exactly what is going on. "You are going to miss your, uh, connection, but don't worry, we took care of you." And by the way, that was infused both by our product technology, but also by this 10% that I'm talking about, the VIP travel agents that we have. This is the Reed & McKay acquisition that we, that we had. And, you know, eventually I was in Houston standing in the immigration line and I had everybody from the flight with me. All of them are booked on the 4:30 flight that just got canceled, by the way. I am booked on the 9:30 flight. Do you know why? Because I used the best solution on the planet to manage my travel and this is Navan. And I mean it. So this is me, my own, uh, personal thing. So now I'm waking up in the morning and I'm walking down this, uh, this immigration line and I'm... and it- and it's painful and I mean it, and it's really not just money for me. It's painful to think that I, if all of these people were, would have used Navan, they wouldn't actually need to wait here in the Houston airport until 4:30 to the flight that actually got canceled. First of all, they'll know that the flight got canceled. I, I actually told them that it was canceled. And two, uh, they'll actually, the system will automatically book them on the right, uh, the right flight. So it's painful for me that people are not using us and still using something that is really bad, really bad software, Compcare, and something that is really bad service like Amex, uh, GBT. And to your point, I want to get, go to market faster, open it to everybody, remove any type of barrier for entry, and we are going to use our economics for that.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings48:21

       You should give every employee a hoodie with a QR code that they should wear to airports so you can download it. So when you're walking past lines, you're like, "Hey, download it here." Like that is a good one.

   18. ACAriel Cohen48:31

       I think this is, uh, amazing idea and maybe I should have you joining our marketing team-

   19. HSHarry Stebbings48:35

       (laughs)

   20. ACAriel Cohen48:35

       ... like with this, uh, idea. (laughs) I'm actually going to talk about this with the team later today. It's a really good

8. 48:40 – 51:08

   How do you define a loyal customer?

   1. ACAriel Cohen48:40

      idea.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings48:40

      (laughs) You know, Ariel, you're not the first person to talk about marketing with me. (laughs)

   3. ACAriel Cohen48:45

      (laughs)

   4. HSHarry Stebbings48:45

      My question to you is, I'm fascinated, you said about kind of introducing the loyalty scheme there that's your own. How do you define a retained user?

   5. ACAriel Cohen48:55

      Yeah, I, I think that, uh, uh, we have very loyal, uh, customers and install base, but I want them to feel great, that they didn't compromise if they booked through their corporate, uh, recommended, uh, solution or enforced solution. In fact, I don't want this thing to be enforced. And people really care about loyalty, so we are making sure that they will always get their loyalty from, you know, the hotel chains, from the airlines, but also will make... uh, will get the, the, uh, benefits if they save company money, but also from us, and that's kind of getting more and more of their loyalty into us, into, into Navan.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings49:31

      But when you look at Facebook, they said when you get five friends, then you are, like, a retained customer. I think it's, uh, three orders on Gopuff, you're a retained customer. What's your, like, understanding of what a truly-

   7. ACAriel Cohen49:43

      Yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings49:43

      ... retained customer is?

   9. ACAriel Cohen49:45

      Yeah. We have... because of the expense side, we actually know if you booked outside, right? So we know if you booked a trip, uh, outside, and that's the issue. Like, if you know that you are getting 100%, uh, what we are calling inside attainment of the company's, uh, budget, we know that we are retaining the employees and the customers time and again, not just as a big customer that maybe use us 50% of the time, but retaining them all the time. So, we are comparing this data all the time, and we have a really good idea of who is a user and also who decided to not use us. And if you are not using us, we are getting curious about it, why? And, uh, you know, we'll contact you. We'll call you. This is something that we started when we started at the company, and all the way till now. And, and based on their feedback, we are introducing stuff like the loyalty club that I've mentioned.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings50:37

       What percent of customers have 100% attainment?

   11. ACAriel Cohen50:41

       It's, uh... I think that it goes by, uh, segment. Uh, more of the higher end of the market, what we are calling named enterprise, and even mid-market will get 100% attainment. As you start to go downmarket, you are getting more towards the 80% attainment. And even that number, if you go and compare it to the industry standards, that's compared to 50% to 40% to 50% attainment, so this is significantly more, uh, than what everybody

9. 51:08 – 54:19

   Quick Fire Round

   1. ACAriel Cohen51:08

      else are getting out there.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings51:09

      It totally is. Um, I, you know, I've had so much fun with this. Um, I wanna do a quickfire round. So I say a short statement, Ariel, and you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

   3. ACAriel Cohen51:19

      Let's do it.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings51:20

      Okay, my friend. What does success mean to you when I say success?

   5. ACAriel Cohen51:25

      Uh, you know, I, I, I would say making my kids proud. That's the most important thing for me, that they will be proud of me.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings51:31

      I love that. What does being a great father mean to you?

   7. ACAriel Cohen51:34

      A great father? Actually, it's again, it's, uh, it's every- I think it's everything. I'm spending a lot of time with my kids. Although I'm running a company, uh, the thing, uh, that I like to do the most is spend time with my kids. It means everything to me.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings51:46

      What opportunity have you not taken with TripActions, now Navan, that you wish you had have taken?

   9. ACAriel Cohen51:52

      I think that had I known, uh, how things around travel will, will happen after, after COVID, I would have invested even more and been more aggressive, uh, on gaining more share during COVID. So, I know that we more than tripled the business over COVID. I would have gotten much more aggressive if I had this hindsight of when COVID will end and in what kind of a scale.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings52:12

       What's the most painful lesson that you've been through but you're also pleased to have been through it for the learnings?

   11. ACAriel Cohen52:18

       I think it's really scaling up, uh, the company before COVID and, you know, we were growing fast, 5X over a year, uh, year over year, very hyped, and, uh, and I think that we allowed some people to get into the company that are usually joining the hype. And I've learned it the hard way. Uh, will never happen again. I'm happy that I learned it, and I'm happy that also I had the, the opportunity to reset it during COVID.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings52:46

       What's the single biggest tip you'd give me on hiring? I suck at it.

   13. ACAriel Cohen52:51

       Hiring? Uh, first of all, embrace the fact that you're gonna make mistakes and just do the correction fast.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings52:58

       Where is Amex in 10 years? Is this winner take all?

   15. ACAriel Cohen53:03

       First of all, it's Amex GBT, so that's the travel side, and I don't think that they're gonna be around. I think it is a winner takes all, but even if it is not, the other one will definitely not be Amex. It would be a tech company that is hyper-servicing the company and the employees.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings53:17

       What would you most like to change about the world of venture?

   17. ACAriel Cohen53:22

       I thi- I think there is something powerful here, which is the echo kind of, uh, chamber, but it's also what kind of creates a lot of frustration. I think that sometimes people need to open their minds, uh, outside of Silicon Valley.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings53:33

       Final one, my friend. 2028, okay? We're gonna sit down again. I know, fucking futuristic. Uh, I'll, I'll be a silver fox then (laughs) . Uh, but 2028, where will we be then? Paint that picture for me.

   19. ACAriel Cohen53:47

       Everything about this will be more efficient because of AI and maybe the opposite of, uh, what we think. All of us will be smarter because of AI. It's almost like we got... Do you know? Remember that we had this calculus, uh, you know, computer, you know, when we were kids and, uh, doing mathematics? I think this is the new type of, uh, that thing. It will make all of us smarter.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings54:08

       Ariel, my friend, I've loved doing this. Thank you so much for joining me. I mean, this has been so much fun.

   21. ACAriel Cohen54:13

       Thank you so much. I really enjoyed it. Uh, the, the time really, you know, flew by here. It was amazing. Thank you.

Episode duration: 54:19