Danny Cohen: From Leading the BBC to Leading Venture Capitalist |E1079

1. 0:00 – 0:47

   Intro

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:00

      I love the theater. But I look at it, and I'm always like, "Is it a good business?"

   2. DCDanny Cohen0:03

      You can make money, but you're never gonna make a huge amount of money. The real money comes in a- at access entertainment. We don't think about one investment vertical, film or television. We think about attention and eyeballs. If you think about attention and eyeballs, and you create an opportunity to pick the best in class right across the entertainment sphere. Whatever business you're in, whether you're an investor or you run a business, being honest about what your strengths are and where you need to lean on other people, that is the secret of success to me. I believe in storytelling as an incredible source of revenue. The entertainment world is all about storytelling, and storytelling by companies and founders is not always as good as it needs to be.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings0:38

      Which brand do you think tells the best stories today?

   4. DCDanny Cohen0:41

      I think IKEA's very good at storytelling.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings0:43

      Why IKEA?

   6. DCDanny Cohen0:44

      I just think-

2. 0:47 – 5:20

   Career Shift and Industry Dynamics

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:47

      Danny, this is such a joy to do. I've wanted to do this one for a long time. Lior and Akin have said so many wonderful things. So thank you so much for joining me today.

   2. DCDanny Cohen0:53

      Oh, pleasure. It's very nice to be here. Um, you've had, uh, really amazing people actually on your podcast before. So nice to be, uh, in their company.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings1:00

      Do you know what, Danny? I think it's the British accent for the American audience. It, it makes a big difference. They put you 10 IQ points higher, actually.

   4. DCDanny Cohen1:06

      Good. Good.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings1:06

      Tell me, it's a fascinating background that you have and not the usual in terms of starting in the entertainment industry and then moving to investing. How did you make that transition, Danny?

   6. DCDanny Cohen1:16

      So my job before working for Access for Len Blevatnik was running the television division of the BBC. I ran networks, pre-BBC TV networks. I was in charge of production and all the green lighted content. And I'd been there about eight years. I was ready actually to just, to do something different. The way I think about it is, I want to work until I'm really old. I think that's what keeps you healthy. So I was about 43, 44, um, when I reflected on that. I thought, "Well, I'm not even halfway through my career if I'm gonna work till I'm old." Do I want to be doing the same thing with the same people in the same world, however wonderful and exciting it is, 'cause it is, you know, great, those jobs are great, and they're very, very fascinating, interesting and stimulating. Do I wanna be doing those for another 25, 30, 35 years? And I couldn't imagine that. So I left the BBC without deciding what I was gonna do next because I knew I needed some time to really think about it and decompress. Those jobs are very intense. And I went and had some nice meetings on the West Coast and, and so on, with, um, TV businesses and studios and so on. But around that time, Len Blevatnik had approached me. I'd known Len actually through my wife for quite a long time. And the proposition he offered was so much more interesting, so much more diverse, so much more learning and education for myself, so much more runway to have a long career in this rather than treading, you know, around the same turf I had been for the first 25 years of my career. It was just much, much more appealing.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings2:35

      Can I ask you, eight years at the BBC in the position that you were, there must have been some really big takeaways in terms of how it shaped your operating mindset and how you act today. What would you say are one or two of the biggest?

   8. DCDanny Cohen2:46

      It's all about talent. Um, whether that's about a founder of a company or a, you know, a presenter on a, on a BBC One or a mainstream network show, the fundamental thing is it's all about talent. It's all about teams. It's all about being honest about what you're not good at and what you need support from other people at. It's all about delegating, doing the things that only you can do. And if you're in a very senior role in a business, and I, you know, I sometimes say this to the CEOs of the, of the, uh, companies we invest in. If the thing you're doing on your list is something someone else in the company should be doing, you probably shouldn't be doing it. Because your focus as CEO should be on only on the things only you can do. So I learnt lots about management. And I think that's helped me a bit because not all investors have had, you know, many decades in management.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings3:31

      Mm-hmm.

   10. DCDanny Cohen3:31

       They come to it in a different route. So I think that's actually something I can bring to it. And I, and I also think those management skills, the time and measurement, gives you hopefully some emotional intelligence about how to work with people that I think is also very important in, in the way you approach, uh, the companies you've invested in.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings3:47

       I think people talk a lot about kind of the decay of operator experience, especially applied to technology. But I think the most valuable thing is actually just how to handle people.

   12. DCDanny Cohen3:53

       But also understand it's hard. I mean, it is hard managing things. And sometimes when you sit outside as an investor, you can sometimes think, "Oh, why didn't they do this? Why didn't they do that?" And often you don't understand the complexity of what the person in the hot seat as the manager was having to do and all the different elements they were having to juggle. So I think those things around emotional intelligence and management experience can give you a deeper understanding of the challenges a business faces.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings4:16

       Can I ask, in terms of the challenges, uh, over eight years at the BBC, there's gonna be some challenges. What was the biggest challenge that you faced do you think?

   14. DCDanny Cohen4:25

       I think the biggest challenge is the one that I think about every day now, which is the fragmentation of audiences, fragmentation of entertainment audiences, and the rapid shift to digital consumption of entertainment. You know, you have day-to-day crises, whether that's around a certain show or anything else. But the biggest challenge, the macro challenge, the most interesting challenges is about that fragmentation and that digital transition. And that's very challenging for a legacy broadcaster like the BBC or like a network in the US, CBS, ABC, when you can see those audiences fracturing and going towards digital consumption and curated consumption. That's the biggest ongoing challenge both for me then, going back a few years, and I think still for the management of, of broadcasters and TV stations now.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings5:08

       Uh, I had this beautiful structure of the conversation, and I'm just kind of gonna ignore it because I want to just roll with this. How did they then think about it? Internally, when they think about that fragmentation, what are they saying, and what did you think when you were

3. 5:20 – 7:14

   Television and Digital Media Evolution

   1. HSHarry Stebbings5:20

      in that seat?

   2. DCDanny Cohen5:21

      First of all, you shouldn't accept that linear television is over, broadcast television is over. Particularly for older audiences, they are watching s- quite a lot of amount. So channels have value. But I believe particularly with digital audiences, it's the young audiences that have obviously moved over first. And you really need to pay a lot of attention to what young audiences are doing 'cause they're the pathfinder for the older audiences.So I try to think most about youth audiences as the kind of pathfinder to what the future will be like. And I, you see that in other places. You know, I, one very interesting stat I've, I've noticed more recently was, so in the US, more hours are consumed of YouTube on connected TVs than Netflix. And that's because, you know, you can watch YouTube now on your main TV, um, and people are watching so much YouTube, it's now more hours than Netflix. So that gives you an idea about how the ground has shifted. Telling you something about my age, I remember when this country, when a fourth network channel was, uh, announ- uh, started broadcasting, Channel 4. Okay? That was in the '80s. Can you imagine that now? You have hundreds if not thousands of sources of entertainment across, across a broad, broad spectrum. I think you focus on the young to start with because they're the pathfinders. And the key, more than anything, is have great content. If you don't have great content, you've not got anything great to distribute. So you start with the content and you go from there. And that, you know, there's a well-known phrase, "Content is king or queen," and, and that's still the case. Because unless you've got good things to watch, unless you've understood the zeitgeist, unless you've got the right talent, you've got nothing of quality or value to distribute.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings6:50

      "Content is king." I get you. I agree. Do you know what I find worrying? Discovery. You know, I'm in the content game too.

   4. DCDanny Cohen6:58

      Yeah.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings6:58

      W- there are some amazing pieces of content that never, ever see much attention. And it's 'cause discovery is, like, a fundamentally broken thing. How do you think about the problem of discovery of great content in a world of so much content?

   6. DCDanny Cohen7:11

      You're 100% right. It's a big, big problem. I mean, I,

4. 7:14 – 11:45

   Content Strategy and Audience Engagement

   1. DCDanny Cohen7:14

      I've been involved with, uh, one or two projects that went to streaming platforms, very, very high-quality projects that just disappeared. Really great work with great talent involved. And that's because there's so much on there, they don't market very much. They trust only on the algorithm to throw things at you. And frankly, I, uh, the quality of those algorithms is, I think, slightly overrated because it's, take some of those streaming platforms, the stuff they offer me as the things they'd li- like to watch, they don't often offer me something I really want to watch. So I, I think they're amazing platforms but actually the quality of the recommendation engines is not as good as I think people hope they would be. And so that problem of discovery is a very, very profound one now. I, I actually-

   2. HSHarry Stebbings7:53

      But you think it's better on YouTube and that's why they do so much better actually now?

   3. DCDanny Cohen7:57

      Possibly.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings7:58

      Yeah.

   5. DCDanny Cohen7:58

      Possibly. I mean, you know, hard to bet against Google on any of these things. I mean, I, I, I downloaded, uh, an app to my phone called Must Watch which you can put in any TV piece of content and it'll tell you what platform it's on in your country as a way of trying to aid this discovery problem. And it's good. It's not amazing, but it's good. But it speaks to exactly what you're saying, which is, it's very hard to find the stuff you want to watch. And it's very hard to know even where to look for it. I think we've all had that experience that we know that there's this huge amount of content out there, but we've sat at home flicking around looking for what to watch and we've not found something we want to.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings8:30

      M- my worry is also this gets worse and worse with AI and content creation. Y- we have a h- we, we use AI to create content today.

   7. DCDanny Cohen8:36

      Yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings8:36

      And what it will do in two to three years, I think will 10X the supply of content.

   9. DCDanny Cohen8:40

      Yep.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings8:41

       How do you think about that worsening the discovery problem even further?

   11. DCDanny Cohen8:45

       It's gonna worsen it. I think you're right. I think, you know, there's a big who knows about everything in AI now. But hits and stars. Okay? I mean, hits and stars. And, and that's something Len actually says quite a lot. You know, as someone who bought one of the three majors in music and has plenty of experience in entertainment like me now, you have to focus on talent to give yourself the best chance. Um, you also have to take risks. You know, that's something I learned throughout my career. If you try and do exactly what people have done before, you often get a, a sort of slightly shallower facsimile of it, a faded facsimile. And you have to take risk, which means some of them don't work, but some of them do. Um, you know, they zig, we zag, that kind of thing. And actually, that really fits with Len's, uh, perspective of investment too. You know, he's something of a contrarian investor who will look for opportunities in the opposite direction from where other people are looking. And I think that's actually been, um, one of the hallmarks of his success.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings9:38

       Do you know another thing I worry about is kind of the, it sounds a bit strong of me, but kind of the bastardization of content, which is we can have a 60-minute episode, and then there'll be a 45-second clip which just takes a very strong viewpoint.

   13. DCDanny Cohen9:51

       Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings9:51

       And that is the one that's shared on Twitter with 45 million views.

   15. DCDanny Cohen9:54

       Mm-hmm.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings9:55

       And the episode may get a million views.

   17. DCDanny Cohen9:57

       Yeah.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings9:57

       That 1/45th.

   19. DCDanny Cohen9:59

       Uh, uh, you're right. You're right. I don't know whether one can battle that stuff. You know, I, I don't know whether one has to work out, "Okay, how do you manage that?" Because there was, there was a very interesting recent large-scale survey in the UK, which it said that, I think, young people in the UK are watching over an hour's TikTok a day now-

   20. HSHarry Stebbings10:17

       Yeah.

   21. DCDanny Cohen10:17

       ... on average, which seems astonishing for one platform.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings10:21

       I do that.

   23. DCDanny Cohen10:22

       Do you?

   24. HSHarry Stebbings10:22

       Yeah.

   25. DCDanny Cohen10:23

       Over an hour? And, uh-

   26. HSHarry Stebbings10:24

       But I study the trends of what works and what doesn't. There's tools which show-

   27. DCDanny Cohen10:27

       And it's a rabbit hole, isn't it?

   28. HSHarry Stebbings10:28

       Yeah.

   29. DCDanny Cohen10:28

       It's a rabbit hole and, uh, it's fun. But it's an incredible, has an incredible ability, both that and Instagram Reel, to suck up time.

   30. HSHarry Stebbings10:36

       Yeah.
5. 11:45 – 20:47

   Monetization and Business Adaptation

   1. DCDanny Cohen11:45

      that's where you look at the biggest creators on YouTube, they're making tens of millions. And there's a- there's a- there's a set behind them who are making thousands a month or hundreds a month. And that is a platform where you can take your- take your talent and make money from it. Whereas I agree with you, some of these other, um, platforms, there's no pathway at the moment. Now you could argue that these companies will work out what that pathway is. They'll work out a way of rewarding, um, their- their top creators and creators generally to do it. But we're not seeing that pathway yet.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings12:14

      Yeah.

   3. DCDanny Cohen12:14

      And so I would advise people if you want to be a creator and it's obviously a growing part of the economy, focus on the areas where you- where you could actually make money. And if that means doing short form, make focus on that short form, throwing your audience to the long form.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings12:27

      Yeah. I actually don't believe in investing in the creator economy.

   5. DCDanny Cohen12:31

      No.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings12:31

      And I know that sounds strange, but it's because so much value accrues to the top 0.1%.

   7. DCDanny Cohen12:35

      Yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings12:36

      So much that actually generally speaking, your credit card for content creators, the, uh, you know, provider that allows you to do content creator taxes better, whatever that is, it's just not a big enough market.

   9. DCDanny Cohen12:47

      Well, we- we have a really great investment in that area actually called Spotter. And they would be better about talking about their business than I, but- but, uh, you might want to approach them for a future podcast because they're exceptional. They are doing very well at what they do. They've become a home for creators and it's a big business for us now. It's be interesting for you as an interesting challenge to your perspective to have them on and they could tell you about their business.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings13:06

       What do legacy media think about it? Like what does the BBC think about the creator economy? There's a TikTok star who does kind of, uh, news, um, in the UK and he has 10 million followers now and the BBC attacked him recently. I'm just wondering like, what is the response from legacy media to the rise of this form of media?

   11. DCDanny Cohen13:24

       I think they're massively challenged by it. Um, I think you see their attempts to- to respond to it. I don't know, this morning Taylor Swift being at an NFL match last night with her new boyfriend was one of the main stories on the BBC News website.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings13:38

       Was there- was there a match on? I just saw Taylor Swift in a box all the time. (laughs)

   13. DCDanny Cohen13:41

       Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that's what, that's the point, yeah. So- so- so why is that there? That's not really news in the way you would expect the BBC to present news and as a story of significance, but what they're trying to do by doing that, and which other legacy media also have to try and do, is track young audience, make those young audiences feel that there are some topics which are particularly focused on them. Now I'm not saying by that the young audiences are not interested in real world news, they're only interested in Taylor Swift, but they might be more interested in both than- than an older audience. So they, that's what they- they can only do it through the stories they tell and where they put those stories.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings14:13

       Do you not think that's kind of a what and a where? And what I mean by that is like, that is, I'm- I'm guessing and so forgive me if I'm wrong, but that is a written piece of content on the BBC News website, and I think it's the wrong what, it probably should be a short form video or an animated clip or whatever that is, and it shouldn't be on the BBC website 'cause that's not where they are either.

   15. DCDanny Cohen14:32

       Well, this is the problem though, that- that's a catch-22, isn't it? Because if they're not on that website, you can't get young audiences to the BBC, so you've got to keep trying and- and you've got to see whether you can attract them. I think in that story there was probably something to click on, which was probably the Instagram clip of her, you know, Taylor Swift laughing at the game or whatever, uh, surrounded by some other celebrities. But as I say, that's not the only thing young people are interested in. But the- the- you can see these efforts to attract younger people to legacy platforms because they know that those audiences seeping away from them and that's a big, big, big challenge for them, for their futures. It's existential actually for those companies.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings15:06

       What do you think happens in five years time?

   17. DCDanny Cohen15:09

       Uh, to legacy media?

   18. HSHarry Stebbings15:10

       Yeah. So I- I had someone, uh, recently say to me that actually with AI and the explosion of content, they will become more valuable because they are verified sources of media that you can trust. And you know there is a person there, they have morals, they have liable versus AI first could be anything.

   19. DCDanny Cohen15:27

       I hope that's true. I- I think brands, trusted brands are really important. But AI isn't the thing that's suddenly going to, uh, challenge trusted brands. Social media has already done that for- for, what, 10, 15 years now. You know, the breakdown in shared truths, the breakdown in our understanding of a shared reality and what's really happened, that's already happened. So AI might make that worse arguably, but I don't think that's a new thing with AI. I think- I think you hope, and I hope as a kind of concerned citizen that those brands hold on to truth, but I don't know. I mean, if- if that many young people are getting their news from TikTok, why would they, when they're 10 years older decide they want it on the BBC? They may do, but I- I'm just not sure and I- I do find that concerning. And it's not that the story for these services is over, it's just they've got massive, massive challenges and they're going to require great leadership, great talent, new distribution models to be able to survive.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings16:24

       Do you think the incentive structure is aligned to that? And what I mean by that is in a world where, you know, bluntly I make a lot of money from my podcast. If I was in a traditional media house, I would be paid a salary. Like the BBC's salary incentive structure is not nearly as attractive as what one can earn in a modern media world.

   21. DCDanny Cohen16:44

       That's always been the case. People are decently paid there, but you can work in other places. I think, you know, in the case of the BBC and I left quite a while ago now, people are very proud to work there.It's an amazing place to work. You feel like you have a ro-

   22. HSHarry Stebbings16:57

       Do you think they still are? And I don't mean that rudely, but there's been a lot of shade on-

   23. DCDanny Cohen17:00

       I think some. Yeah, I think some, but not all. Uh, and actually, you know, I think this comes in, in phases. There was a moment, I remember, when I was there where everyone seemed to want to work for Google or Facebook. Not sure everyone feels like that now. I think some. You know, the problem with, uh, all this area is generalizations and, yeah, there's, uh, there is, I'm sure, 10X, 20X the amount of young people who wanna work at the BBC th- than they have roles for.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings17:20

       Do you think BBC, ITV, traditional legacy media, do you think they are more or less valuable in five years, if you were to put it back down?

   25. DCDanny Cohen17:28

       Y- y- it just depends on your strategy. I mean, you know, ITV have done a very good job. You know, for global audiences, that's the main commercial channel in the UK. They've done a very good job of building out their production and distribution capabilities, so they're not just reliant on, on, uh, linear television transmission. So I- I really think it depends on strategy. And I'm not someone who really believes you can imagine what's gonna happen in five years at this time, because things are changing so fast. AI, look how AI, what AI has done in just the last few months once people began to understand the power of gene- generative AI. I think people tell you with confidence they know what's gonna happen in five years, they're, to me, they're overconfident.

   26. HSHarry Stebbings18:00

       Do you worry about the business model of media? And what I mean by that is, like, traditional advertising. I mean, we remember the days when it was, like, X Factor on a Saturday night, and those slots on ITV were, like, a million each or whatever it was.

   27. DCDanny Cohen18:12

       Yeah.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings18:13

       People mostly watch on demand, catch up, watch TikTok.

   29. DCDanny Cohen18:16

       Yeah. So this actually goes to the heart of, uh, the investment strategy I lead on at my part of Access, Access Entertainment, that we don't think about one investment vertical, film or television. We think about attention and eyeballs. And that attention and eyeballs, that can be across a wide range of entertainment experiences. So if you think about attention and eyeballs rather than, "I can only invest in film and television," then you create an opportunity to pick the best in class, or try and invest in the best in class, across, right across the entertainment sphere. So at Access Entertainment, we invest in film and television, but we also invest in gaming, we invest in the creator economy, uh, we invest in other kinds of digital content. Uh, we invest in live theater, and we also actually just started our first immersive experience. We've launched a show earlier this year with David Hockney.

   30. HSHarry Stebbings19:03

       Yeah.
6. 20:47 – 28:49

   Investment Perspectives in Media vs. Theatre

   1. DCDanny Cohen20:47

      because different things will have different types of value. So you're right. Tripledot, amazing gaming company, amazing founders. I think the sky's the limit, and I think they'll, they'll continue to be great at executing. A theater, uh, you get a certain rent a week. You ... There's only the same amount of tickets, uh, seats every week. Productions cost a certain amount, and you can invest a certain amount in them. But I have, I, I work in a, in a very fortunate place, where I work for someone who both likes making money and likes building big businesses, but also has a great love of the arts and a great love of storytelling, um, and a great appreciation of talent. And so there are things we do in the mix at Access which aren't about pro- profit maximization, but are about smaller profits and also a love of the arts. And I feel extremely fortunate, actually, to be in that position, because I love the arts, and it's great to work with someone who, um, is the same.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings21:41

      Can I ask you, does it also impact downside scenario planning? When you think about loss ratios in startups, we both know many startups fail. It's harder for actual physical events, I imagine, to fail. Immersive experiences, theaters, it's hard to fail like a startup would go to zero.

   3. DCDanny Cohen21:56

      That's true. I mean, it's, it's certainly true in a theater 'cause you own the real estate.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings21:59

      (laughs)

   5. DCDanny Cohen22:00

      So as a minimum, you've got, you know, uh, it's a grade one, we own the, uh, Len owns the Theatre Royal Haymarket.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings22:05

      Mm-hmm.

   7. DCDanny Cohen22:05

      Uh, it's a grade one listed building. It's been, uh, on that site for 300 years. It's prime real estate in London. Has to have a specific use, but it's prime real estate in London. So there's no way of going to zero. The, the, the way of maximizing its profitability is to bring in big stars and big shows. So for example, in January, we have Sarah Snook, you know, Shiv from Succession.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings22:24

      Yeah.

   9. DCDanny Cohen22:25

      She's starring in a play at the Haymarket. She's actually playing all 26 characters in the new version of Dorian Gray. Um, and that's a real sweet spot for me. Big talent and innovation in, in production. That's the way you maximize it. But you're right, you've got something there, um, which has value. Similarly, if you have the privilege of working with someone like David Hockney, an immersive show with David Hockney has IP value that we share with him in terms of royalties and license fees, and you can take that show around the world. So you're right. The, the, the, uh, downside scenario case is different.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings22:54

       And it's really interesting you mentioned, obviously, Sarah Snook and David Hockney there. You know, we saw, um, Lionel Messi agree in his MLS deal actually to have a revenue share with Apple TV.

   11. DCDanny Cohen23:04

       Yeah.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings23:04

       And it's kind of the-... transition of value from talent, or from kind of, uh, media b- company to talent and actually them taking more and more of the pie. Do you think we'll continue to see that? Do you think when you have Tom Hanks in a play or whatever it is, they'll have the power to say, "Actually, I want more of the top line"?

   13. DCDanny Cohen23:24

       They might do. Everything's a negotiation, as y- as you know. Um, you know, you have to s- understand, start with the understanding the basic economics. If someone like, um, Tom Hanks, who's incredible, is making a movie, the economics are very different from doing a sh- an immersive art show, s- similarly with Sarah Snook and Succession and performing in a play. So you have to understand the base economics and what's available. But everything's a negotiation.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings23:45

       Guys, are theaters good business? I love the theater. But I look at it and I'm always like, "That's, it's a lot of cost."

   15. DCDanny Cohen23:51

       Yeah.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings23:52

       Is it a good business?

   17. DCDanny Cohen23:53

       It depends what you're comparing it to. If you're comparing it to a fast-growing tech stock, um, probably not. Uh, but it might be a lot more stable than, you know, some of the trends we've seen in tech stocks in the last, in the last, uh, year or two. You can make money, but you're never gonna g- make a huge amount of money. The real money comes in the creativity. You know, if you look at, you know, the stars of musicals like Andrew Lloyd Webber and so on, you know, they're billionaires, and rightly so because they've created, uh, a, a piece of art which has lasted decades and people continue to want to see. So in a, in that kind of area with, in that kind of area, theater, IP is the key.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings24:27

       I get you. Okay. What's the hardest thing about investing across so many different disciplines?

   19. DCDanny Cohen24:31

       Keeping the bar high. Um, the way Access is run, it's a lean operation. We try and invest in other companies rather than build a lot of our own infrastructure. Uh, when I arrived, I couldn't quite understand that because, you know, the asset size that, that Access Industries has and Len Blavatnik has is, it's a lot of money. Um, but it's a smallish team. And it took me a while to understand that. And I think, one, it's a business and Len wants to set the right example. We're lean and we expect our companies to be lean. But actually what it makes you do is focus on really exciting opportunities rather than just doing lots of things.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings25:02

       Yeah.

   21. DCDanny Cohen25:03

       So it keeps the bar high. You know, focus on big things, not doing lots of things is a kind of important mantra at Access, an important mantra for Len. And so that's how we think about it. So keeping the bar high, bandwidth, making sure you're focusing on the right things, I thi- I think that's the biggest challenge.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings25:19

       It's so interesting 'cause, you know, you mentioned David Hockney, Tom Hanks, Sarah Snook, and then we have Lee Ortinak and at Tripledotil.

   23. DCDanny Cohen25:24

       Yeah.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings25:25

       And you mentioned, you know, other companies that you invest in. I don't n- interview investors who invest across disciplines like you do. What are the commonalities in the best talent regardless of whether they're on stage or in a boardroom?

   25. DCDanny Cohen25:39

       Yeah, it's a great question and, and that sort of investing rather than being stuck in one format really leads you to ask yourself that. It's a really interesting question also about how you decide someone is really smart and good. Okay. Let's take Lee Ortich, um, as an example. I felt I knew pretty quickly that Lee Ort and Akin were special.

   26. HSHarry Stebbings25:56

       (laughs)

   27. DCDanny Cohen25:57

       Okay? Uh, I didn't need to spend 48 hours in their company to understand that. Now, it was backed up by some metrics. It was backed up by what they'd previously done in the industry. It was backed up by the fact that already at an early stage of their company, they were already profitable. You know, there were tha- those, those were there to support you. But I also, you could just feel it and see it. And it really asks an interesting question about what is it about founders that gives you the confidence to invest in them? And I think it's this mixture. Uh, it's, it's metrics, but it's also a question of emotional int- intelligence and an ability to read people, ability to understand what they're like. I think y- what you notice are some commonalities are extreme drive, focus on quality, an ability to, to separate what really matters from all the other stuff going on, a passion and an understanding for what they do, uh, an attention to detail. All of those things are some of those things. And, and there is true of someone acting on the stage at a 300-year-old theater as they are of a, of a gaming company. And, and flexibility of mind, because as conditions change, what do you do about that? If conditions change, how flexible are you in, in changing your approach?

   28. HSHarry Stebbings27:05

       It's actually why I like to in- uh, it's why I like to invest mostly actually in serial entrepreneurs like Lee Ort or Akin.

   29. DCDanny Cohen27:11

       Yeah.

   30. HSHarry Stebbings27:11

       'Cause I find with age, you understand nuance more.
7. 28:49 – 38:46

   Leadership and Team Building in Business

   1. HSHarry Stebbings28:49

   2. DCDanny Cohen28:49

      Yeah.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings28:50

      And he will get so deep in it in understanding every possible optionality tree of moves. And, and then I'll have one who is fascinated by lodging for families in the 17th century in England-

   4. DCDanny Cohen29:02

      Mm-hmm.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings29:02

      ... and how some did multi-family lodgings to save money-

   6. DCDanny Cohen29:05

      Right.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings29:05

      ... and how others slept outside.

   8. DCDanny Cohen29:07

      Right.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings29:07

      Bizarre often.

   10. DCDanny Cohen29:08

       Do you have-... one of those?

   11. HSHarry Stebbings29:10

       I mean, a- actually, yes. I have a fascination with coffee in particular and double espressos.

   12. DCDanny Cohen29:14

       Really? Okay.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings29:15

       And so I will study the different beans to the end of the world.

   14. DCDanny Cohen29:18

       Okay.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings29:19

       And then hunt them down and go all over London for them. And then think about, like, the steam levels that need to be cr-

   16. DCDanny Cohen29:25

       Wow.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings29:25

       So yeah.

   18. DCDanny Cohen29:26

       Oh, that's interesting. And it tends to be one thing like that?

   19. HSHarry Stebbings29:28

       It tends to be one thing.

   20. DCDanny Cohen29:29

       Okay.

   21. HSHarry Stebbings29:29

       And it can move.

   22. DCDanny Cohen29:30

       And where's the best cup of coffee in, in London?

   23. HSHarry Stebbings29:32

       Daisy Green, just by Portman Square.

   24. DCDanny Cohen29:34

       And New York?

   25. HSHarry Stebbings29:35

       New York, I don't know.

   26. DCDanny Cohen29:36

       Okay.

   27. HSHarry Stebbings29:36

       I don't spend too much time in New York.

   28. DCDanny Cohen29:38

       Okay.

   29. HSHarry Stebbings29:38

       But I love that. And so I find that... Is there anything that's different between them when you look at, like, kind of maybe the more cre- and sometimes I'd say more creative, but when you look at your actors, your directors, writers, versus the founders, is there anything where the best have a difference?

   30. DCDanny Cohen29:54

       On-stage talent often come with a range of insecurities. Uh, it's a different thing that, you know, they take a risk and put themselves out in the public that the rest of us don't. That involves risk and vulnerability that most of us don't ever experience. So that's something interesting in how you manage them and get the best out of them. Um, I, I think that's actually one really, really important difference, that they take a different kind of risk. A founder is taking risk with people's money. An actor or an artist is taking a risk in a very public way about how people will respond to their art and what they're doing on stage or on film or, or in a gallery. So the... I think that's actually one of the interesting things you have to do. And again, it comes around to how you manage people, how you understand what concerns them, how you can best support them. What are the strengths you have that other people might not have or you've got more of? I'll, I'll give you another example. So my background, I am not going to be the fastest in the room on the Excel, okay? I understand how the Excel works, okay? I can do the maths, but I won't be the fastest. But I may be one of the better people at understanding, uh, how people are feeling about their work, how you can encourage them the most, what kind of incentives they need, and how you can best support them. So it's about... also about being very honest with yourself about what your strengths are, and where you're much better to he- lean on other people. You, you mentioned it actually earlier when we were just chatting before you started about your network and the people you rely on who can do stuff better than you.
8. 38:46 – 47:37

   Personal Development and Career Reflections

   1. DCDanny Cohen38:46

      nervousness was an active decision, and it was about, as I was saying, that pathway to having an interesting career for another 25, 30 years. But yeah, I had a lot to learn. I had a lot to learn on the finance side. Uh, I had a lot to learn about investing.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings38:57

      What was the hardest thing to learn? Akin asked that one.

   3. DCDanny Cohen39:00

      The hardest thing to learn, in a way, is how strange the way the markets behave is, because I, I don't find it always entirely rational.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings39:09

      (laughs)

   5. DCDanny Cohen39:10

      And coming t- I found that quite surprising. Um-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings39:13

      Have you heard the statement, "A market can stay irrational longer than your company can stay solvent"?

   7. DCDanny Cohen39:18

      Yeah. That's, that sounds true to me. The only sh-

   8. HSHarry Stebbings39:21

      How does that shape your thinking then if you take that one level deeper? If it doesn't always seem rational, do you do anything as a result then?

   9. DCDanny Cohen39:27

      Well, to some extent, you, you have to move with the trends. So obviously, we've seen that movement from, uh, you know, "It's all about revenue," to, "Show me you can make some money. Show me you can make some profit." So it's partly about understanding how things are changing and how things are gonna be changing the way they're valued. I think it actually just takes you back to fundamentals. Do you believe in these people? Do you believe in this idea? Do you believe in their execution? And then regardless of that, you, you give your best chance of a good outcome. Not every time, but regardless of that, you give your best chance of a good outcome.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings39:52

       Yeah. I get you. Um, yeah. It's, it's challenging. What was your favorite part about the move? What was freeing about it?

   11. DCDanny Cohen40:01

       Um, lack of bureaucracy. The agility, um, of a place like Access compared to a l- you know ... I manage about 3,000 people. At the BBC, it's an organization of 20,000 people. It's a huge tanker that's, you know, takes long time to move things around. Um, so I think agility, flexibility, access to capital, uh, that you can spend on a range of different things, you know, not just the t- the television digital space. I think all of those things have been great.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings40:30

       What do you think is your biggest insecurity today?

   13. DCDanny Cohen40:32

       Am I ... got the right people around me to help me? And I, I b- really believe I have, but that's the thing you always want to keep testing. Can the people around me on the things I'm less good at, can they a- answer the questions for me that I can't answer myself? Uh-

   14. HSHarry Stebbings40:43

       Are you good at delegating?

   15. DCDanny Cohen40:44

       I think so. I think so, though we're a lean organization. I think the other thing is, you know, you always have insecurity around certain investments you've made. You know, I think you get, it gets particular rather than, you know, um, you know, the, the big fundamentals around anxiety or anything. I think it's, you know, have we got this one right? What do we learn from it if we haven't got right? Um, you know, how might this change our investment thesis in this area? I think you can have the insecurities around certain things rather than I, I, I don't ... I'm not sure I have a kind of large macro insecurity. (laughs)

   16. HSHarry Stebbings41:11

       What would you say in terms of biggest miss, how did that impact your mind?

   17. DCDanny Cohen41:49

       ... invest more in that. And I didn't take the investment, and it would have been in A text in about 15 months. Um, so that was a really interesting, maybe painful learning. We all have those learnings in investing. But what I took from it was, uh, was if you believe in something, it's okay to double down. Um, it's okay to take more than one risk in an area. Um, so that was one I really learnt a lot from.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings42:15

       Uh, one of my biggest hit... I love that. One of my biggest hit was, uh, it, it worked really well and you had great success with it. How did that impact your mindset?

   19. DCDanny Cohen42:23

       Don't get carried away. (laughs) It's hard. Lots of things can happen still in the future. Take a long term view. Um, don't grow your ego. Um, remain humble. Keep listening. People often go wrong when they get c-... And I've seen it, you know, with people on television. People often go wrong when they get too carried away by a moment of success or a period of success.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings42:47

       How do you keep them on the ground? Founders have the same. They raise that big 100 million round with Sequoia leading, your business still loses money.

   21. DCDanny Cohen42:54

       Yeah, I think you've just got to keep bringing people round to focus on execution. That's what it's all about in the end, how... You know, if you can just ask very, you know, granular, specific questions around execution. Provide support, but I, I think that's the only way, because that's what brings people back down to Earth from the clouds.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings43:10

       Two final ones, which is... Oh, actually, one on marriage. What's the secret to a happy marriage, Danny?

   23. DCDanny Cohen43:16

       So I married up.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings43:18

       (laughs)

   25. DCDanny Cohen43:18

       I married someone much smarter than me. My advice would be marry someone smarter than you. My wife's a lady called Narina Herz. She sits on a number of company boards. She's on the board of Warner Music, Mattel, Workhuman. She's also written a number of best-selling books. So she's clearly, clearly much smarter than me.

   26. HSHarry Stebbings43:33

       (laughs)

   27. DCDanny Cohen43:33

       Support your partner, enable them, liberate them, um, cherish them. Those are the things I try and do and I know she does for me. So, um, I'm fortunate to be very, very happily married.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings43:44

       In terms of parenting, as you... Oh, on marrying up, does that ever make you feel insecure?

   29. DCDanny Cohen43:49

       Marrying up?

   30. HSHarry Stebbings43:50

       Yeah. I've been out with girls and th- they've had that before, and then I suddenly feel very, very insecure about myself.
9. 47:37 – 49:50

   Cultural Trends and the Loneliness Economy

   1. DCDanny Cohen47:37

      so there's different ways of doing it where there's YouTube stars who eat loads and people find company in watching them eat and eat their food, particularly in Asia, actually, in this one. People get company from eating their meal with this person eating on screen. So the, the range and diversity of the loneliness economy is huge. M- And I, and I think it's gonna keep growing.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings47:58

      Do you think it consolidates to one or two platforms? And do you think there will be platform providers whose try and solve mental health and loneliness in the next few years that take a lion's share?

   3. DCDanny Cohen48:08

      Maybe. I think it's so difficult and complicated, I, I don't really know the answer to that. I mean, some of it, you know, there's, there was an amazing woman in Wales that Noreena writes in the book who started these chatty benches in parks, where, you know, it's a bench to chat on and people who needed someone to talk to could come and chat there and make a friend. So, so there's so many different ways, both in the physical world and in the digital world where... that this needs addressing.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings48:31

      I find that fascinating. Um, but listen, great discussion on the book. (laughs)

   5. DCDanny Cohen48:35

      (laughs)

   6. HSHarry Stebbings48:35

      Um, I wanna move into a quick fire. So I say a short statement and you give me your immediate thoughts.

   7. DCDanny Cohen48:39

      Okay.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings48:39

      Does that sound okay?

   9. DCDanny Cohen48:40

      Yeah, that sounds all right.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings48:41

       'Cause trust me, you've got through to personal, so I mean-

   11. DCDanny Cohen48:43

       Right.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings48:43

       ... this is easy.

   13. DCDanny Cohen48:44

       Yeah.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings48:44

       What do you believe that others around you maybe disagree with?

   15. DCDanny Cohen48:48

       I think I believe in storytelling as an, a incredible source of revenue in terms of film, television, theater. And I think if you, you know, in a way you hinted at it, they won't necessarily be the high growth, you know, of gaming or creator economy that it could do. But I believe fundamentally, if you find the right things, you can make a lot of money in that area. I mean, look at, look at Barbie in the last few weeks, 1.6 billion and growing. So I, I, I really believe that, you know, it's about hits and stars and it's hard, but I think the idea that you can't still make a lot of money from high quality, well-judged, long form storytelling is not correct. It's not all going to be about TikTok.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings49:26

       You mentioned Barbie there. We had Barbie and Oppenheimer in that kind of mammoth weekend.

   17. DCDanny Cohen49:30

       Yeah.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings49:30

       A- and talk to me first, like, and this may be a little bit unfair and a quick fire, but COVID, cinemas, how was that? (laughs)

   19. DCDanny Cohen49:37

       Disastrous for cinema. I mean, utterly disastrous. I mean, Barbie and Oppenheimer were a wonderful moment, but it was actually became quite a frustrating moment because it was the biggest moment since the pandemic where you felt the electricity of cinemas.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings49:49

       Yeah.

10. 49:50 – 1:03:47

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. HSHarry Stebbings49:50

    2. DCDanny Cohen49:50

       You felt that moment of an event weekend. You felt people returning in their droves. And then we were in a writers' and actors' strike, and the knowledge that there would be some kind of dislocation in content supply for cinema in the future. And so I found it both a joyous moment to see that, but also because of the, the, the labor disputes, and of course good news is one of them has already been solved, the writers' one, looks like there's an agreement, it was also quite a frustrating moment because, you know, I went to LA a couple of weeks later. There was a lot of frustration and disenchantment in LA at that point before the writers' strike certainly was agreed because everything was stuck. So it was an interesting moment for cinema, that, where it was a moment of elation, but also, hm, we might be stuck again soon. You know, I don't know the ins and outs of the dispute, but I'm very hopeful that the actors' strike gets settled soon and, and people get back to work.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings50:39

       What does the dislocation mean in terms of that content supply? Does it mean we won't have enough content for six months?

    4. DCDanny Cohen50:45

       It sort of depends how long it goes on for. Um, and if you're not, you know, one of our investments, a company called A24, an independent studio, they, you know, they, they were able to keep making a lot of things. It's really about the studios and those big platforms like Netflix and Amazon. But yeah, there will be a point, a pinch point in the next year to 18 months where there's probably a bit less content around than before. We talked at the beginning of podcast about maybe there might be too much content around and, um, you know, a refinement of that might be a good thing. I think it's really gonna depend now on how long the actors' strike continues. And if people get back to work quite soon, they may not notice that dislocation. But certainly, you know, if any industry pauses for four months, five months, six months, supply dwindles.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings51:27

       Is it ending now?

    6. DCDanny Cohen51:29

       The-

    7. HSHarry Stebbings51:30

       The strikes.

    8. DCDanny Cohen51:31

       Well, the writers' one has ended.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings51:33

       Yeah.

    10. DCDanny Cohen51:33

        We think. I mean, it still needs to be ratified by and

    11. NANarrator51:35

        (laughs)

    12. DCDanny Cohen51:35

        ... signed by members, but the actors are still on strike. I actually think today there might be new t- talks begin with the actors and the actors' union and the platforms and studios begin again today. So I'm hopeful that that gets settled. Interestingly, there's, you know, a number of things that p- people might know about AI in those distr- in those discussions about how actors, the relationship between actors and AI. So I'm hopeful that gets resolved quite quickly and, and the industry gets going.

    13. HSHarry Stebbings51:57

        Why is Broadway more expensive than the West End? I saw this and I, I didn't have any idea why.

    14. DCDanny Cohen52:03

        I think a lot of it's cost base, and part of that cost base is union costs. The union costs of ma- on many things in New York are higher. But what we're noticing, and we're finding it more and more extreme, is that the cost of financing a play or a musical in the West, London's West End can be four times less than financing on Broadway.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings52:21

        Huh.

    16. DCDanny Cohen52:22

        And that's very problematic. Now you could argue-

    17. HSHarry Stebbings52:25

        But that's purely 'cause of unions and...

    18. DCDanny Cohen52:26

        Unions and other reasons for cost bases and, and, and, and wage structures and everything else. And, and to be honest, someone on Broadway will be able to tell you more on that. But that's, those are, those are at least some of the fundamentals. I think this is really problematic for Broadway because Broadway partly benefits from and exists because of the generosity of some very wealthy people to keep backing a very, very high risk type of investment. And if those investors begin to feel that the risk has just gone too high because the bud- the capitalization for this musical is now 25 million, where three or four years ago it might have been 15 million, and they think it's gonna take three years to get my money back, if that, I think m- even with the amazing goodwill of those people, those benefacts of Broadway, they're beginn- gonna begin to think differently about it. And they're going to ask themselves more and more questions about whether they want to be supporting that. So I, I do... it's good for the West End in one way, but I d- I, it's something I am grown concerned about. Now you could argue that the, you can get higher average ticket price on Broadway than the West End, and therefore you could recoup quicker. But still, the maths of that-

    19. HSHarry Stebbings53:31

        You could, but to that extent, are you gonna get 4X the ticket price?

    20. DCDanny Cohen53:33

        The ma-

    21. HSHarry Stebbings53:33

        I don't think so.

    22. DCDanny Cohen53:34

        The maths of that...... you know, are hard. And, and it's making us, certainly at this point at Access, Access Entertainment, much more cautious about what we invest in on Broadway. So-

    23. HSHarry Stebbings53:45

        So when you look at Hamilton, sorry I'm so naive, is, is, is all the value created there in IP? In the music, in the DVDs, in the merch?

    24. DCDanny Cohen53:53

        No. No. I mean, the musics has a lot of value and, and the Hamilton soundtrack was released on, you know, the record company Len owns is Warner Music, so there's been a lot of value in that. But if you're selling out theater every night, there's, there's m- you're gonna start making money. And then the other thing you'll get is that, um, if you invest in the original production, you have a right to invest in all the other productions around the world.

    25. HSHarry Stebbings54:14

        Ah.

    26. DCDanny Cohen54:14

        So, Access is an investor in Hamilton in New York, but also in London, and in Australia, and in other countries. You earn that right by taking that risk. Want to invest in a successful production as it moves around the world.

    27. HSHarry Stebbings54:26

        Okay. I totally get you there. Tell me, what's your biggest lesson from working with Len?

    28. DCDanny Cohen54:30

        He always says, "Do big things. Do less and do big things." I think that's right. I think, you know, you've only got so much amount of bandwidth. But, you know, I, I learn whenever I'm with him, and he's very generous with his time with me, I learn things every time from his business experience. A story he might tell, or he'll say, you know, "Generally speaking, I've found this and I've seen this pattern." So there are some, like, big things, but actually I, I, when you're lucky enough to work with someone like that, you know, one of the world's most successful businessmen, you learn w- from them all the time. You learn from every conversation. Sometimes you might say something that interests them as well, but I definitely learn all the time from him.

    29. HSHarry Stebbings55:06

        You can have dinner with anyone, dead or alive.

    30. DCDanny Cohen55:08

        Charles Dickens.

Episode duration: 1:03:48