dLocal CEO Sebastian Kanovich: The $8BN Company You Might Not Know | 20VC #926

1. 0:00 – 1:09

   Seba's Background

   1. SKSebastián Kanovich0:00

      Three, two, one, zero. (beeping) You have now arrived at your destination.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:09

      Seba, I'm so excited for this. I heard great, great things from Oren Ziv and from the team at, um, General Atlantic. So thank you so much for joining me today.

   3. SKSebastián Kanovich0:18

      Hi. It's great being here. Thanks very much for having me.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:20

      Not at all. But I wanna start with a little bit on you. So tell me, Dlocal is one of the most fascinating stories. It is a machine of a company, and actually quite under the radar, respectfully. So tell me, how did you come to be CEO of Dlocal?

   5. SKSebastián Kanovich0:34

      So, Har, it's, uh, it's, it's ... This year it's year number ten, and it's, it was absolutely by chance. So, uh, I was in Montevideo, where I was born, and I at my mother's-in-law birthday party, and I met one of my partners and he tells me, "We are starting a company." I was back then trading stocks and bonds at Santander Bank. I, I studied economics, so it was supposed to be wha- wha- what one, one was meant to do. And he told me, "Look, we are starting this company. Come join us. See how it looks." Uh, and that's how I'm here, uh, ten years later. Absolutely by chance. Obviously I have no idea about payments. Uh, the good things about payments is that it's like a, it's like an onion. You, you keep peeling it and you're thinking, "Now we understand it." And then

2. 1:09 – 2:13

   Luck vs. Skill

   1. SKSebastián Kanovich1:09

      you realize that there's more and more layers. So absolutely by chance. I would have had no idea that I would be here ten years, ten years later. By no chance.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings1:17

      Can I ask you a question? And I often think about this one (laughs) . And I sent you the schedule beforehand. I'm like, "Oh, can I ask you a random question that I just thought about?" Luck and skill. I think, you know, (laughs) pe- people often kind of conflate the two, but then also don't appreciate that actually a lot is skill as well. How do you think about the role of luck and skill in your progression to be CEO today?

   3. SKSebastián Kanovich1:39

      I think anyone who ... N- n- no one would disregard luck. You know, it, it's, it's impossible to disregard. Obviously you need to work extremely hard and you do everything you can to, to go after it. Uh, we're gonna be discussing a little bit more, but I really suffer when we lose, and it's something that I think has also proven to be a, a way of being lucky, in the sense that I don't wanna lose. Uh, so the fact that we don't wanna lose means that I'm gonna put everything I have, uh, to hopefully being a chance to be successful. So I think you need to go to your mother-in-law's dinner party. That's one lesson. Uh, so that's the luck component. But then you have ten years of very hard work,

3. 2:13 – 3:16

   What is "high performance"?

   1. SKSebastián Kanovich2:13

      so bo- both are really important.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings2:14

      I think if you, you don't go to mother-in-law's dinner party, you're not gonna have a mother-in-law for very long (laughs) .

   3. SKSebastián Kanovich2:19

      It's true. It's true. It's true.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings2:20

      Uh, but, uh, I do, I do wanna ask you. You mentioned about not liking to lose there. In terms of not liking to lose, in terms of high performance, what does that word mean to you when I say it, and how do you define high performance as a leader today?

   5. SKSebastián Kanovich2:33

      It's very hard to define it, Har, but you feel it when you see it. Uh, it's typically people that bring energy. Like, you, you see people that are, like, constantly not taking energy away but bringing energy to the workspace. Uh, it's people that are focused on the solution and not so much on the problem. When you are fast ex- When you are fast growth, you have problems. Things are not working the way they should. Uh, and you want people that are go after it and say, "Okay, I'm gonna solve it." Not only that they sign a PowerPoint or a presentation of how the solution should look. That's not high performance. I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm totally against that. It's people that say, "It's on me. I'm gonna fix it. This is how it's gonna look, this is the time it's gonna take," and you, they deliver. To me, that's high performance. Uh, and the reality is that the easiest way to spotting high performance is when you have a team of high performers, when someone's

4. 3:16 – 4:30

   How to give people space to fail

   1. SKSebastián Kanovich3:16

      not up to par, you can tell right away. Um, you can ask anyone on the team and they can tell you right away that someone is not carrying their, their burden. So that's how I define it.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings3:25

      This is something I struggle with though. If someone's not quite carrying their burden, sometimes you have to let them fail to learn the lesson. How do you think about giving them enough space to let them fail versus stepping in and preventing a mistake that could have been solved?

   3. SKSebastián Kanovich3:40

      Har, clearly not my strength. Uh, clearly. Uh, so I'm, I'm not anyone to, to give a, any lessons on this. Uh, I think feedback, it's important. Uh, and I try to be extremely transparent. People should know where they're standing, uh, the whole time. Um, and there are different type of mistakes. We don't wanna have mistakes of lack of action, because I was paralyzed or, or ... Th- those mistakes I, I don't typically tolerate. If you made a decision and it's the wrong one and then you own it, that's perfectly okay. Because the, the, the reasoning behind that is that we're all learning, and if you're learning, it's normal to make mistakes and therefore, "Okay, I made decision A. It wasn't the right one. I'm gonna fix it. This is how it's gonna look next time." And those, those loops are, are extremely important to us. It's very ingrained in our culture. The way we operated, we don't know, we need to learn, we need to act fast, we need to make decisions. If the decisions are not great, we're gonna fix them.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings4:29

      I totally agree with

5. 4:30 – 7:11

   Speed of Execution

   1. HSHarry Stebbings4:30

      you in terms of kind of optimizing for learning. In terms of kind of optimizing for other things, I think speed of execution is one of the clearest signs that I see in companies that I invest in that work well. When you think about the velocity of execution, how do you think about how important speed of execution is, and how do you determine when you can go fast and when you should go slow?

   2. SKSebastián Kanovich4:53

      Harry, I think wh- when you're starting, speed is everything. There's nothing but speed. Because again, you are assuming, you are trying to tackle a problem. For us, we started processing payments in Brazil. One day we said, "We're gonna go to Africa." What do you know about that? Nothing. What do you need to do? You need to make sure you iterate fast enough, uh, to be able to have enough feedback from the problem to tell you this is not the path to go or, or this is the path to go. So speed for us, it's of essence. A- and there's nothing more important than it. There are obviously ... As you grow, there are barriers. You need to make sure you're making mistakes that you can walk back. You need to make sure you understand the regulatory framework. We are now a public company, so there, there's more things to take into account. But when in doubt, I'd always choose speed. Uh, I, I, I think that's the only way to learn. And, um, again, both of us are very young, and there's nothing more important than learning. And the best way of learning is trying stuff. And, and as you, and as you try it, you'll learn more. Uh, so you can spend one month trying to guess what's the right answer. You can take one day, make a decision, see how it goes, iterate, and then go to the next one.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings5:51

      So I totally agree with you. Um, I (laughs) e- engaged in speed of execution and decision-making last year. Um, I wrote a ve- And I'm ... I think the reason the show's doing better and better these days is 'cause I'm opening up a little bit more about-

   4. SKSebastián Kanovich6:04

      (laughs) .

   5. HSHarry Stebbings6:04

      ... how I fucked up so many times (laughs) . Um, but I, I, I made fast decision specifically once and put a lot of money to work, and it was a mistake. Um, and there.... it didn't serve me well, and I've taken real lessons from that on where to spend time investing, even if I have a compressed timeline to make a decision. Has there been a time when speed has caught you up? When was it and what was your takeaway?

   6. SKSebastián Kanovich6:31

      So, Harry, there, there's been ... So, yes, many times, uh, absolutely. Um, um, I, I think the, the key there, it's to own it. And th- th- th- the issue, the way I see it, it's not typically the first mistake, it's, uh, when you fall in love with that decision and you wanna keep doubling down on it because-

   7. HSHarry Stebbings6:46

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SKSebastián Kanovich6:47

      ... either ego or you get too emotional, emotionally, uh, embedded in that decision. So on hiring, I've made mistakes on hiring. I've, I, I've hired some great people that I ... that didn't work out, and that was my, my mistake. When I hire them, I always say, "Let's do it fast. Let- let's make sure we give people the (air quotes) opportunity. 　 " Sometimes you make mistakes and, and that's perfectly okay. What I don't accept, or what I try to avoid, is fall in love with the mistake and say, "Okay, I made a mistake and

6. 7:11 – 8:12

   Biggest Hiring Mistakes

   1. SKSebastián Kanovich7:11

      that's a sunk cost, and therefore I'm gonna continue to invest on that forever and ever, eh, when the signals are telling me that, that it was a wrong decision." Eh, so, hundreds of those.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings7:21

      What were the hiring mistakes? I always have fallen for logos. I hire people because of the logos and they're not as good as I thought.

   3. SKSebastián Kanovich7:27

      Yes, every single time. Uh, it happens to all of us, particularly when you're growing up and you're young and you're a CEO that doesn't have many, uh, references from, from previous experiences, yes. Someone is a VP at a big corporation and you say, "Okay, that's gonna fix all of my problems." First of all, I learned that no one fixes all of their problems. We are a team and we fix them together. Eh, I also learned that in many, many cases, the solution's right in front of you inside the current team, and, and you, and you end up falling in love with someone who is great presenter or someone who, eh, c- worked at great companies, which might... They might have been great there. It means nothing, but it's, it's always a person and the situation. And, and, uh, growing up, I, I, I would typically focus a little bit more on the, on the CV and less on the situation. Now I try to match the person and the situation. Is this person really gonna fit this

7. 8:12 – 9:45

   Seba's Ability to Focus

   1. SKSebastián Kanovich8:12

      thing we're asking them to do? Eh, that's it-

   2. HSHarry Stebbings8:15

      And, and I-

   3. SKSebastián Kanovich8:15

      ... hopefully.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings8:16

      I totally agree with you. I do ... You said the word focus there. It was something that a lot of your investors spoke to me about, was bluntly your ability to focus and hone in on what really matters. When you think about prioritization, do you have a prioritization framework mindset for determining what one or two things move the needle. Because (laughs) when you're in 35 countries, there's so many things you could be focused on.

   5. SKSebastián Kanovich8:41

      Harry, we probably have a, a cheat sheet for this, which is, we listen to our customers. We, we, we deal in enterprise payments, so our customers are big, they have opinions, and they know their stuff. So it's very easy. You ask them, "Where should we go next? What's the next thing we should be doing? Where are we not performing?" And then you take that, that as a guiding f- eh, as, as a guiding principle, and everything else which is not gonna impact your customers, eh, you try to not focus on. Eh, and impacting your customer might be how good you are in HR, because the people you're putting in front of your customers are not great enough. And therefore, I might be focusing for one or two months in an HR firm, or in finance, or in expansion. But for us, that has always been the hack. For instance, we don't do product roadmaps on our own. We ask our customers, "What should we do next?" We started doing payments, so customers buying from a company. Then at some point they say, "Guys, what else should we do?" Airbnb came to us and, and Uber came to us and said, "We wanna do the opposite flow. We wanna do payouts." Great, that's our product strategy. We are now gonna do payouts. Eh, "We wanna do fraud, we wanna do issuing." So being able to have something that it's a guiding principle, and for us it's our customers, makes everything else much easier.

8. 9:45 – 11:16

   How to know when to listen to customers

   1. SKSebastián Kanovich9:45

      If I spend too much-

   2. HSHarry Stebbings9:46

      Now-

   3. SKSebastián Kanovich9:46

      If I spend ... Sorry. If I spend too much time on something that it's not gonna have an impact on customers, then I'm probably doing something wrong.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings9:52

      I totally get you. My question to you is, one, often the most vocal customers don't speak for the majority of your customer base. They're just the most vocal, and they're probably super users. And two, there's always a lot of input. You can't take it all. So how do you know when to listen to customers versus to say, "No, we're gonna double down and focus on this this quarter"?

   5. SKSebastián Kanovich10:14

      It's extremely weird, Harry, that we're gonna say we're gonna double down and not listen. Uh, I, I cannot even recall one time when that has happened. Eh, typically, when you have smart customers the way we do, eh, they give you signals in the same direction. Eh, they all want you to go to Africa. Why? Because they focus ... They face the same challenges there than they once faced in Latin America where we started. So you start to see the signal. Obviously, you don't run after the first chat, but if you start to see consistently that people are asking you for payouts or for Africa or for APAC or go to India, suddenly there's a voice out there that you need to start listening to. So that has served us well so far. It's, it ... We haven't had cases where, eh, our customer needs haven't guided us to a better place where we're ... um, from where we were before. We went public. We went public because we felt that we wanted to be better perceived by our customers. We wanted to give them an, an additional level of comfort. It all goes together.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings11:06

      I like that. Um, yeah, no, I, I, I totally get that. I- I am always just so split between the many things that I could do, um, (laughs) so I totally get you. I, I, I think

9. 11:16 – 13:31

   Sebastian’s most painful but worthwhile lesson at dLocal

   1. HSHarry Stebbings11:16

      we learn a lot from mistakes. You mentioned hiring mistakes. Yeah, I mentioned (laughs) losing money-

   2. SKSebastián Kanovich11:20

      (laughs)

   3. HSHarry Stebbings11:20

      ... in that bad investment. Um, (laughs) uh, (laughs) fucking hell. Um, but, uh, my question to you is, like, we learn from painful lessons. Can you just tell me about, like, a specific lesson that you've had in the dLocal journey that was painful, but weirdly, you're actually quite pleased to have had it?

   4. SKSebastián Kanovich11:38

      Totally, totally. Back in 2019, we run a process to get our first investor. Eh, we had bootstrapped dLocal from 2016 to 2019. First of all, if you don't run processes, very bad idea, eh, that's something I learned, uh, and I'm glad we, we ... I'm glad we ran that failed process because we wouldn't be here otherwise. But the real lesson behind that is that we weren't dreaming big enough. Uh, we came from Uruguay and we thought, "Okay, we brought the company to this level. This is the time where you find someone bigger to acquire you, or, or someone ... you, you got this far away, but companies from Uruguay don't go to the next level." Eh, and that's a very painful mistake, and it was, it was a big one by us. Luckily enough, we s- we lived another day as an independent company, and we can tell the story today. Eh, but w-... eh, worrying too much about, eh, how far we could get or, or, or being too ... We, we, we weren't ambitious enough. We, we were afraid that we wouldn't, eh, we wouldn't be good enough and that was a mistake. Eh, and it's, it was a very painful one. Probably we held the company back for a few years for that. I can tell because once you ... Sorry.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings12:38

      No. I- I'm just intrigued. What was the realization that you could do it? You could go further, you could go bigger.

   6. SKSebastián Kanovich12:44

      Then suddenly we did have an investor. We were profitable but some, an outside investor, General Atlantic in this case, came in and told us, "Guys, you have an amazing company. It has nothing, eh, worse than any of the great companies we see out there. You have the potential. You need to tweak one or two things here and there because you need to seek scale." Eh, and suddenly we unlocked it. We stopped thinking about the short-term. We said, "Okay, this is how we're gonna build it. This is how we're gonna build it for the long run. We are building this thing to own for 100 years." Eh, that was a, that was a, a great unlock. GA played an extremely important role. We, we, we wanted a partner that was gonna add value. We were profitable, so we didn't need the money and it was our first ever outside investor, so we were kind of worried of how this is gonna work. Eh, and the reality is that it was before and after. There's a before and after in our history, eh, because we were lucky enough to choose the right partner.

10. 13:31 – 14:30

    Why running a process is a bad idea

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich13:31

    2. HSHarry Stebbings13:31

       And we're gonna talk about the fundraise itself. I do just wanna ask, why ... You said like running a process, not a good idea. Why is it not a good idea?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich13:39

       I think you will end up attracting the wrong type of, eh, investors, eh. Many of the great investors won't participate in processes. Eh, you ... I think you sometimes defer too much to, eh, the bankers and it's our role as management to explain what we do as a company and, and, and put our voice out there. Eh, and sometimes they don't allow you to trust your gut, so we weren't optimizing for a, for a valuation. We wanted to optimize for the right partner, and the process says that you need to have five bids and then three bids and then one bid, and it's, it's, it's not the... For us, it wasn't the right way of doing it. It was a f- it was a failure. We didn't get to what we wanted. Eh, we ended up closing a round three months after the process independently on our own.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings14:19

       (laughs) Yeah. I mean, to be honest, bankers and fundraising processes, I get in trouble for saying this. I hate it, not a fan. Not a fan. Um-

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich14:28

       (laughs) .

    6. HSHarry Stebbings14:28

       But now my inbox is gonna be screwed, so,

11. 14:30 – 15:45

    Pros and Cons of Bootstrapping

    1. HSHarry Stebbings14:30

       uh, well done, Harry. Um, I, I do want to ask though. You know, you mentioned the raise itself there. You bootstrapped for four years and scaled pretty globally without venture funding. Why? And in hindsight, what were the pros and what were the cons of not raising money early?

    2. SKSebastián Kanovich14:46

       Harry, why? Because we didn't have any other option. Eh, we never even thought of the option. We started out of Uruguay and we were ... There wasn't venture capital out there. There, there, there was ... It's not that we had, eh, Y Combinator and five other VCs waiting to give us money. We said, "Okay, if we wanna build a company, have it the way you build it. You have customers that pay for it, and those payments are higher than your expenses, and therefore you are profitable and then that's how you'll start scaling." Eh, that's why. It wasn't any master plan. It was the way it happened, and I think that has become really deeply ingrained in our DNA. That really defined our culture of who we are. Eh, we are very frugal. We really care about every dollar. We spoke a lot about customers. They, they were not only... They were our investor and our customers at the same time because they were funding everything we did, so, eh, I think that became really deeply ingrained. I spoke about the mistake. If I would have known a little bit earlier what im- good investors would have brought to the table, probably I would have done it or would have tried to do it a few years earlier, eh, because you

12. 15:45 – 17:56

    What do good investors bring to the table

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich15:45

       really see a different world out there.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings15:47

       What do good investors bring to the table then?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich15:50

       First of all, they, they trust you and it's, it's hard to ... H- when, when you're alone, when you're bootstrapping, you don't have any signal, eh, rather, other than your customers. You don't have any signal that what you're creating it's actually generating value. So the first time that someone comes in and says, "Yes, you now have value. This is your valuation. This is how it looks," it was very important to us. Eh, and then they ... We were, I think in bootstrap d- when you are bootstrapped, you're working on, on ... You're, you're playing on very hard mode. You're playing against ... You're not ... You don't have any tools. Eh, you wanna get an intro, you don't get an intro. You wanna, eh, you wanna s- think how other companies do it, it's much harder to have a network. All those things, uh, uh, a great g- a great partner or investor provides you, and, and it, it's, it was very helpful to us.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings16:31

       I wanna know about the mindset shift, 'cause you go from, as you said, playing on hard mode where there's not a huge amount of cash kicking around to try new experiments, try marketing, try a lot of different things, and then how much did you raise with this first round?

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich16:45

       It was all secondary funds, always.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings16:47

       Okay. So, whatever it is, but there's like, I don't know, 50 million, 100 million, whatever it is.

    7. SKSebastián Kanovich16:51

       Yes.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings16:52

       That's a lot of cash that drops into your pocket when you've had nothing. How do you retain a mindset of frugality when getting 50 or 100 million suddenly to play with in your bank?

    9. SKSebastián Kanovich17:03

       (laughs) Harry, probably the answer is that you fall somewhere in the middle between what you were before and, and what your average investor wants you to become. Eh, most of my disagreements with our investors were more in the direction of we wanna keep our culture, we wanna be frugal, we wanna be humble, we wanna build it block by block. Eh, so ... But then you learn. If you, if you, if you have s- if you have a new vantage point and you don't incorporate any of it, you're not someone smart enough. And so when we were going public, eh, GA was very instrumental and other investors were very instrumental in saying, "This is how your finance team will look, eh, and these are the investments you need to put today in order to be able to scale." So in those areas where you don't know, you generally need to listen because others have seen it. Eh, but then how do we serve our customers? We served them the same way as we did back in 2016. Anyone can call me. I'll pick up the phone, I'll jump on a plane, because I think that's DNA and that you should never

13. 17:56 – 19:57

    Breadth vs. Depth of Coverage

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich17:56

       lose.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings17:56

       I totally get you, and I think that's right. I- in terms of investing for growth, one thing that I found quite striking was, like, your geographic expansion. We mentioned 35 countries earlier, and just what stroke, like ... (laughs) Stroke me. (laughs) That sounds very weird. What was striking to me is your choice of going broad and not deep in many respects, and I hope that's okay of me to say. But it's like you could have had 10 countries and just gone for deep, deep penetration within them, all about usage. Instead, you went wide. What was the strategic thinking around the geographic expansion and that-... breadth versus depth.

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich18:32

       So, Harry, it's, it's a very strategic decision for hours- for, for us, sorry. Uh, so first of all, in payments, uh, 35 countries is not, uh, very wide. There are many payment companies that say, "We do 190 countries." Uh, after, for us, after seven years of work, we still do, uh, 35. So we've gone generally, uh, deep. There are things that we've chosen very hard countries. We've chosen, we started out of Latin America, then we moved to India, then we launched in Africa, now we do some other countries in APAC. So we've always looked for the places which had the higher friction. Uh, and there's always a trend between going a little bit wider. So Latin, we've spent three years in Latin expanding into new geographies and then going really deep into countries where we were ready. We then went to India and it took us a few years to be ready in India and feel comfortable with what we have, and only then we go to next level. Uh, the reality is that in payments in the industry where we exist, merchants want simplicity, so we need to be able to solve multiple problems for them at the same time, you'll become much more valuable. So having the ability of doing for any of, for someone like Google, having the ability of doing Nigeria and then Mexico and then Brazil and then South Africa, it's really powerful. So that's why we decided to go a little, a little bit deeper. But I don't foresee us going to 60 markets in the next quarter. That's never reality for us, because we generally need to go local. We need to have people on the ground, we need to find, we need to understand the regulatory frameworks, the payments behavior. So we cannot do 100 times at a time, uh, uh, sorry 100 countries

14. 19:57 – 20:52

    Why dLocal prefers the hard countries

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich19:57

       at a time.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings19:57

       Respectfully, do you like the hard countries because no one else is there, because they're hard?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich20:04

       That's where we come from, Harry, and probably you, uh, I think there, there's always a matter of fit from the, from the leadership of the company and the problem they're attacking. Uh, I was born in Uruguay. Uh, we started processing payments in Brazil. Uh, going to, no- no one ever cared about Uruguay, obviously, and Brazil was, uh, no, it's not the Brazil of today where it's sexy and, and no one cared about the Brazil back in the day when we started. Uh, now Nigeria looks like that, and it's full of friction and people say it's impossible to build a business. We find it tempting. And we also believe that those places... The first time I flew to India, I came back and I called Jaco, our president, I told him, "Jaco, this is a nightmare. We're never gonna make it." And then we said, "Look, it's a nightmare. We need to make it," uh, because it's very hard. If it was so hard on us, it would be hard on everyone. That's a huge barrier to entry. Let's solve this thing and we'll be generating value for our customers, and that-

15. 20:52 – 23:16

    How to make geographic expansion work from the team side

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich20:52

       that- that's has been it.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings20:53

       How do you make geographic expansion work on the people side? Because there's two schools of thought, one that says you always need people from the core team to bring the first culture, and then there's the other school of thought that says you need local people who understand the local culture. So how do you make geographic expansion work in India, in Nigeria, in all of these new very different societies and cultures?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich21:12

       I think the answer, Harry, is that you need both. You need... If, if you only go with people that have been with you and work in your headquarters, you have no chance because you don't go deep on the, on the, on the country. Uh, but if you... The best example for us it's China. When we were starting to sell to Chinese merchants, so we, we said, "For every Facebook, there's gonna be a ByteDance or a TikTok. We need to be able to serve them both." We had no idea how to do it. Uh, the first thing we did is we hired two Chinese people, uh, out of, uh, Shenzhen. No chance. They were a complete sili- satellite, like no, no, no connection whatsoever with the company. Then I moved there and I realized that, I said, I moved there and, and we brought two more people with me from Uruguay. I said, "It's absolutely impossible that we're gonna be able to do this unless we find great Chinese local people." The reality, it's somewhere in the middle. You need to bring your culture to the new place, because if not, you don't have a way of cooperating with the rest of the company, but you need local people. Otherwise, it's absolutely impossible. We have today people in every country where we operate, and we have a lot of people inside the company moving. So we have people from Mexico living in South Africa. We have Argentinians living in India. Uh, we have Uruguayans living in China. Uh, and we really encourage that because in that mixture, we, we are building bridges. And in order for you to be able to build a bridge, you need to understand both sides of it.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings22:27

       What did you learn from your time in China? That's a big fucking move. Born in Uruguay, moved to China to fix two Shenzhen employees who aren't working. That's a big move. What did you learn?

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich22:39

       Well, I learned a lot. I wanted to stay. Uh, and with my, with my now wife, we decided to come back, but it was extremely, extremely tempting. China, it's, uh, obviously it's, it's... I went in 2019, so it's a slightly different China than the one today. I haven't had the chance to go back. Uh, but the level of innovation, the level of hard work, uh, the ambition I saw there was mind-blowing, and I was blind to it, uh, up until one year before. And I think many of us are blind. So the level of ambition that Chinese companies have in emerging markets, it's undeniable. Uh, and for us it was great to have the ability of, uh, looking at it, uh, firsthand, not someone else telling

16. 23:16 – 26:20

    The Benefits of a Having a Lean Team

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich23:16

       me. It's absolutely impressive.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings23:18

       You mentioned the team members moving around the world. I think another thing that's very striking to me when I look at Dlocal is actually 650 people, respectfully, it's not a large team given the size of the company. How do you think about the benefits of being a small and lean team despite the size of the company?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich23:36

       Uh, I was, just before this call, I was having a call and they were asking me, "How many more people do you want for next quarter?" We don't want many more people. Uh, we like small teams. I'm, I'm a big, big, big believer in small teams. I think small teams can achieve huge things. Uh, I, I feel we are many now. 640 is already a sizable number. I know in regards, in comparison with our revenue numbers, we are still small. Uh, but I still, I, I, I believe small teams drive ownership, and ownership it, it's extremely important, because you have the feeling that you're doing something that has an impact, and bigger teams have harder times cooperating. So I'll always choose the smaller team that it's able to deliver what we wanna do. Uh, in our case, we are a very remote organization. I have personally lived in Israel for the last six years. So this has been home for me. And, um, I've been away from our headquarters forever. And I think that has become a really, uh, it's, it has become a strength for hours, because for us, sorry, because we know that...... our business is distributed. We have customers in China, in India, in Europe, in the US, and we have operations across 35 emerging markets, so you know you're always gonna be far away from someone. So what do you need to do? You need to have a team that is amazing, that is empowered, that really understands your culture. Uh, um, smaller teams are easier to keep c- coherent. That's at least our experience.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings24:53

       So I have insecure- so I, I have remote teams as well, and I have insecurities in my own leadership that I'm inspiring them enough, given that we're remote. I don't know how happy they are because I don't see them at the end of the day. Just when you think about your insecurities and your own leadership, what would you say your biggest insecurities are in your leadership today?

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich25:12

       Oof, Harri, plenty of them. If there's anything, uh, dLocal has taught me that... Or dLocal has made sure that I'm never comfortable in seven years in- in this role, uh, from the day we started. Every time I felt we were comfortable, uh, the reality below me changed and- and suddenly I had to quickly adapt. I thought I knew now how to run a- a- a company that was invested by a private equity and then we went public and then- we- you are constantly learning something new. So I'm very insecure, right? I always feel that- that I need to be better, uh, and that there are- I'm sure... When I speak to other CEOs, I say, "Well, they do know what they're doing," and- and I'm trying to- to learn as I go. So I think that keeps us very humble and that keeps us very hungry. Uh, the day, I hope, the day... I hope the day I feel I know everything doesn't come. Uh, I need to... I- I think there's a healthy level of- of insecurity that- that needs to come with a, with a job like mine. Uh, and it's very hard with the team. Uh, it's- it's very hard to know how good you are, uh, in- in any given day because our job is to make things happen, uh, not necessarily one particularly but enables it. So

17. 26:20 – 27:55

    Sebastian’s Biggest Insecurity

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich26:20

       it's not easy.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings26:22

       I- I... Seba, I've spent too much time with Americans so I- I go deeper than this. Um, I have specific insecurities around age and relevance, which is, like, I always am terrified of being... Do you know Home Alone, the Christmas movies? Macaulay Culkin?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich26:36

       Yes. Yes.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings26:36

       Yeah. Where- where's he now? No one knows. No one's seen him in years. I'm terrified of being Macaulay Culkin of venture capital. That's what scares the shit out of me. (laughs) So if that's what scares me and that's my insecurity, age and relevance tied together, what is specifically your insecurity?

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich26:57

       Wow, it's a good question. Again, uh, public speaking. I suffer it. Uh, you said- you said- you said that- that dLocal was always, uh, or- or we are still not- not well-known. We are- we were always a company that was much less known than the good business we were, and a lot of that is for me to blame. Uh, I don't feel comfortable under the spotlight. Uh, I like to live a life that is very simple, and- and I think a lot of that is insecurity. I- I don't wanna be the big shot CEO. I don't feel comfortable with that. I- I wanna be doing my job, uh, and I think that has sometimes been a big benefit for dLocal. If I would have high- higher profile, probably our life would be a little bit easier, but I don't feel secure enough to do it.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings27:40

       Yeah. No, I mean, I think the hard thing now is actually being public is part of the job actually. Do you know what I mean? Um, and that's a big change that we've seen. That and the politicization of leadership, I think is the biggest challenges that- that leaders face

18. 27:55 – 28:34

    The Secret to a Happy Marriage

    1. HSHarry Stebbings27:55

       today. I- I do have to ask, you said there about kind of marriage and your wife. Um, what are the secrets to a happy marriage, Seba? I- I'm, uh, you know, single but always looking for love life secrets.

    2. SKSebastián Kanovich28:06

       (laughs)

    3. HSHarry Stebbings28:06

       What are the secrets to a happy marriage?

    4. SKSebastián Kanovich28:09

       Harri, that's a hard one. I can tell you, I- I've been with my wife for 15 years, since we were, uh, 17. I was 18, she was 17. So getting to 15 years. I don't know, I admire her, I love her. Uh, we get along extremely well and she's a partner. Uh, that's- that's all I can ask for. And I'm rooting for her, and hopefully she's rooting for me as well. Uh, that's all. And we are a team together.

19. 28:34 – 29:35

    What to tell yourself when you’re unsure you can do something

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich28:34

       That's how I feel it.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings28:35

       Can I ask, what do you tell yourself? Like, what's your mind talk when you don't know if you can do something? You said earlier, like, "Oh, I don't know if I can do that." Like, what do you tell yourself when you're not sure if you can do something?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich28:49

       If I'm speaking too much to myself, that's a problem. I try not to live in my mind. I- I really believe in efficient of... In efficiency of movements. It's something I- I- I watch a lot of NBA, and the best NBA players are typically the ones that don't think, they act. And you can- you can see that everything is very natural. So if I'm- if I'm spending too much time in my own mind, there's something wrong. I- I'd rather execute in- in some sort of direction or do something else in- in my life, spend some time in a different ecosystem with my friends, with my family, with... You know, a place where I'm not the CEO of dLocal but I'm Seba forever. And that typically helps... That typically unlocks a lot- a lot of things because when you're stuck with something, go do something else, come back, you- you'll find a new perspective.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings29:33

       Can I ask, you know,

20. 29:35 – 33:35

    dLocal’s IPO

    1. HSHarry Stebbings29:35

       we mentioned marriage. Um, in terms of other significant milestones in one's life (laughs) , I can't believe I'm aligning marriage to this, but going public is pretty fucking cool. Like, that is a highlight of one's business career, for sure. When you think about the going public and the IPO process, why first did you decide 2021 was the right time to go public?

    2. SKSebastián Kanovich29:56

       So Harri, the- the honest answer is that we didn't know before that IPO was a possibility for us. I was telling you, up until 2019 we had bootstrapped, so it happened really fast. EGA there played a very important role, calling us and saying, "Guys, there's a window for you. Businesses like yours can do IPOs in this current environment." We are very proud today to be one of the very few IPOs that are ahead of its IPO price. We've done very well so far in the public markets. Uh, but once we unders... First of all, you have to understand what an IPO meant. So the first thing we did is we jumped on a call and I asked, "Okay, how does it work? Eh, like, what are the things that need to happen?"Uh, but once we understood, uh, I... Public companies are the big leagues. That's the way that I look at it. And you wanna be playing in the bigger leagues you can. Uh, and whether you like it or not, you can delay it, but over time, great, great, great companies are built in the, in the public markets. And we wanna be a great, great, great company. And for that to happen, we, we, we had to go through that process. Uh, we were never very well-known. We wanted to have the increased visibility. We wanted to have in... We are in a b- we are in a business that requires a lot of trust. Having transparency around our financials would bring trust to our merchants, to our providers. Uh, so it was a no-brainer from a strategic standpoint. Then there's the question of how well we are gonna do, and we are still answering that.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings31:13

       Can you walk me through the process? And can you also just help me understand, you mentioned not, like, loving public speaking. You have to tell your story to countless bankers, to countless investment banks. Did you find that challenging having to constantly be the front man, telling the story, inspiring bankers?

    4. SKSebastián Kanovich31:31

       Harry, not so much, but because I love to have the spotlight on the business. And during the IPO, you are presenting Dlocal. I could speak about Dlocal for 100 hours. What I don't enjoy is speaking about myself. And bankers and investors wanna know how will you make money and how you will, uh, will you expand and how, what are the new products. That, I can speak of forever. That's a passion of mine. So, it- it wasn't very challenging in that sense. And there are things that you're speaking about something that you know a lot about, uh, probably much more than many of your counterparts because you live this problem every single day. Uh, so having the ability of explaining something that hopefully you understand really well, uh, it's... Uh, I- I really enjoyed it. That, that part of the process was great.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings32:10

       Was that e-

    6. SKSebastián Kanovich32:10

       Can be exhausting, but great.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings32:12

       Was there any surprising parts to the process?

    8. SKSebastián Kanovich32:18

       Uh, yes, yes, everything was surprising. But, uh, the... Uh, I didn't understand before the role that banks play, uh, and I do understand it now. Uh, for better or worse, that was a surprise.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings32:32

       In w- in w- and what, in what way? What role did you not... Like, how did that shape out?

    10. SKSebastián Kanovich32:38

        So, first of all, I didn't know that banks had a role to play in an IPO. And in our words, they were important and they... and, and, and they did help. But, uh, you also understand the dynamics of that business, and it's a business that I think it's, uh, it has some sort of potential for disruption, let's put it that way. Uh, I also didn't know the amount of advisors that go into an IPO in terms of legal advice, uh, compliance advice, tax advice. So, that's something I actually enjoyed, because it's one of those times where you have to line up 50 different teams and say, "Guys, this is what's gonna happen. This is how it's gonna look. Uh, this is the Excel sheet. These are the deadlines." And if there's something, Harry, I'm proud, we, we said, we decided in October, in October we would IPO, uh, we- we were gonna IPO on the 25th May. That's my birthday. Uh, we were delayed one week because we... the SEC didn't answer in time, and we were delayed by one week. So, building a project like this in nine months and say, "We're gonna make it, and we're gonna make it on time," it's something that I'm extremely, extremely proud of.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings33:34

        Yeah,

21. 33:35 – 34:31

    Biggest Difference Between Being Public and Private Company

    1. HSHarry Stebbings33:35

       that is, uh, very, very rare as well (laughs) . Tell us, what's the biggest difference for you when you compare being private versus being public?

    2. SKSebastián Kanovich33:43

       The quarterly questions are new to us. I never thought of our business in quarters. Uh, I never thought if something's better to happen this month or the other because of the quarters. I always want it to happen as fast as possible. So that's new. Uh, I think the work you need to do to explain your company, it's something that it's new, and it's positive, uh, because it helps you think about it and, and really have, uh, uh, a new stakeholder in mind when, when you're making decisions. Uh, and I also... I'm still surprised of how much, how much weight it's been put into tones or, or how, uh... or, or, or, or not numbers. Uh, I, I look at our business through its numbers and, and through its metrics. Uh, and sometimes the tone of

22. 34:31 – 35:35

    What gets easier and what gets harder over time?

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich34:31

       the voice will say a lot. And that's something I'm still learning.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings34:34

       Tell us, I think, you know, leadership changes a lot over time. When you think about the changing style of leadership, but just kind of style of the business, what gets easier over time and what gets harder over time, in your mind?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich34:49

       (sighs) So, easier, you have more tools. You- you- you have access to more, to more, to more people, to more investors, to more talent, uh, and, and, and that... Yo- you have more tools, and having more tools, if you know how to use them, it, it should... your life should be easier. Uh, and you have a reputation, and building a reputation is extremely hard, uh, so once you have that, it's... life is a little bit easier. Uh, and the harder part, it's to, to... for us, at least, it's to retain... I- I wanna maintain a culture that I'm proud of and identified... uh, and I can identify with in a context where we are growing extremely fast, and we are doing so in the public markets. So, keeping that balance, it's, it's, it's a place where I spend a lot of time. Uh, how much should we evolve versus

23. 35:35 – 38:11

    The First Things to Break in Scaling Teams

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich35:35

       how much should we be in love with who we once were?

    2. HSHarry Stebbings35:37

       What are the first things to break in scaling teams?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich35:42

       Everything breaks all the time. Uh, they, they break in, they break in steps, uh, whenever... In, in... at Dlocal, in 2016, uh, our sales team was broken. Then we say, "Okay, we're... let's have a... let's have account management and customer success." Then finance breaks because you built a new, a new scale. Then HR breaks. Then, as you're growing, things are thought for a given size, and suddenly, you are operating at 10x the size, so it breaks. The question is, who... what's currently breaking, and where you should... and what you should be focusing on fixing because you know once you fix it, it's gonna be good for one or two years, but it's gonna break again, and you're gonna need a new iteration, and you're gonna need to think of that system, uh, again.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings36:23

       ... when you think about hiring people and working with people in their current phase, I think some people are great for a certain phase, but they don't have what it takes to scale to the next phase. It's just the nature of some people, sadly. Um, the challenge is they think they do. How do you manage out a situation where someone is okay for this stage, but actually for a 1,000 person dLocal doing three acts the transactions that you're doing today, they're not ready for that? How do you manage that process? 'Cause that's one I struggle with.

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich36:53

       Well, first of all, I don't think people are not ready because of the experience. Uh, that, that part I leave aside. I don't believe you need a certain level of experience to be running, uh, a, a certain size of business. But sometimes people don't have the attitude, or they don't... They, they just don't wanna do it. Uh, and part of that, uh, the, the... What, something that has worked for us, it's having a very low ego, uh, culture where, uh, you are, you're, you're not the owner of a given title for a given project. You are taking care of it for a given, uh, for a given period of time. And you do the best you can for that given period, and then you move to the next thing, and it's perfectly okay. And you're not less important to the company if you're not running it or if you're not this chief something today. You might be a VP or head of whatever, and that's also okay. And we have many cases like that in the company. Haco, who is our president, I mentioned him before, he was a software developer then he became a C- our CTO. Then he moved to COO. They tell him, "Haco, we need a title. You are now the president." And we have people moving around, uh, different places in the organization. You wanna keep a low ego. And, and I'm the first one to, to, hopefully to be transmitting that. I'm not the CEO of dLocal no matter what, whatever happens. I'm the CEO as long as I'm doing a good job. And if there's someone who is doing a better job than I, they should be the one taking over. And, and, and, and that's the DNA, and that's it, that's the way we should all be thinking about this. Because we win together. We are a team, and if we win,

24. 38:11 – 39:01

    Did you ever get high on your own supply?

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich38:11

       we're all looking good. And if we lose, we all look bad.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings38:14

       Did you ever get high on your own supply? I think probably a couple of years ago when I was, I don't know, 22 or so, I was getting bigger and the show was doing better. And I, you know, you believe your own bullshit, especially when you're younger. Did you ever, you know, CEO of a, you know, public multinational company, young, did you ever believe the hype?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich38:35

       No, I still don't. (laughs)

    4. HSHarry Stebbings38:36

       (laughs)

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich38:37

       To, to, to be honest.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings38:38

       I can lend you some of my confidence, 100%. (laughs)

    7. SKSebastián Kanovich38:40

       No, no. (laughs) No, Harry. But, but, uh, part of it is cultural. Uh, uh, Uruguay, it's a very unique place in that sense, where being humble is something that it's, it's very much ingrained, uh, in, in our DNA. I wanna be ambitious. I, I want us to win. I wanna compete, and I want us to be amazing. But I don't, I don't think too highly of myself. We are...

25. 39:01 – 39:55

    What does “Winning” mean?

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich39:01

       I'm learning and, um, like the, like the guy next door.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings39:04

       Final one for you. What does winning actually mean to you?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich39:11

       Feeling that you did everything that was to be done. Uh, and there... You never win. You win for a few minutes, and then you're again, uh, back in the grind. But, uh, when you... I th- When I feel like a winner is when we gather a group of people, they share a common set of values, uh, they live by them, and they deliver on something that they agreed they would. Um, you celebrate for two minutes. I'm very bad at celebrating, uh, extremely bad. But, uh, uh, you celebrate for two minutes, and then you, you go again. But tho- those, those few seconds that, that where things work the way you expected, that's, that's winning for me.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings39:44

       I, I, I love that, and I totally agree with you in terms of kind of... I always say, like, "Make sure you leave nothing on the field."

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich39:50

       (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings39:51

       Um, but, uh, I wanna move into a quick fire round, Seba. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts.

26. 39:55 – 40:59

    Sebastian’s Favourite Book

    1. HSHarry Stebbings39:55

       Does that sound okay?

    2. SKSebastián Kanovich39:56

       Sure. Let's go.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings39:57

       So I'm going away tomorrow. I need, you know, to at least sound intellectual with some books. Um, uh, what's the favorite book and why?

    4. SKSebastián Kanovich40:05

       Steppenwolf by Hermann Hesse, uh, um, because I, I read it a few times, uh, the first time when I was 18. And it taught me that you can be many things at the same time. Uh, it's something that I was struggling with, and you can be many things at the same time.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings40:19

       Why were you struggling with it?

    6. SKSebastián Kanovich40:22

       Because I was... I, I, I used to play close to professional basketball, and I went to school, and I wanted to travel, and I wanted to live where I live, and I was running a company. And it's hard to do everything at the same time. And I was saying, "Uh, you need to sacrifice something." No, you can be many things at the same time, and it's okay.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings40:40

       I remember when someone said, "You either have to choose media company or venture." And I said, "Fuck off." (laughs)

    8. SKSebastián Kanovich40:46

       (laughs)

    9. HSHarry Stebbings40:47

       Um, uh, they were a very successful VC though, so I did listen to them at the time.

    10. SKSebastián Kanovich40:51

        (laughs)

    11. HSHarry Stebbings40:51

        Uh, tell me, what's your biggest strength and what's your biggest weakness?

    12. SKSebastián Kanovich40:55

        I think I'm, I'm good at identifying talent where, where others

27. 40:59 – 41:17

    Sebastian’s Biggest Strength/Weakness

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich40:59

       don't. When you look at the talent profile in dLocal, many of the great, best people we have are... weren't obvious. Uh, we met them, uh, uh, along the way, and, and, and we spotted them, and they're extremely good today. And the biggest weakness is that I really suffer when we lose, and I take it personal,

28. 41:17 – 42:08

    Sebastian’s Favourite Interview Question

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich41:17

       and I shouldn't. Uh, but, uh, I do.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings41:20

       Can I ask, what's... Do you have a, like, favorite or preferred interview question?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich41:26

       Well, uh, no.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings41:29

       It's like Doug l- Doug Leone at Sequoia asks, "What's your relationship like with your siblings? Because the way that you-

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich41:34

       (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings41:34

       ... describe your siblings will say a lot about you," which I thought was really interesting.

    7. SKSebastián Kanovich41:42

       I typically ask them, "What, what else? What else should I know?" Uh, and, uh, I, I like that because it, it, it allows people to, to, to open up. Uh, and you get to... You, you, you get... I'm not a big fan of in- traditional interviews. We need to know each other because you might be amazing but you're not a good fit, or you might- don't think you're amazing and we might find you amazing. So, um, tell me what else. And that's in many cases where we get the

29. 42:08 – 42:19

    Hardest Part of Sebastian’s Role at dLocal

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich42:08

       best, the best, uh, insights.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings42:10

       What's the hardest element of your role with dLocal today?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich42:14

       I, I mentioned it before, but evolving our culture in, in the public eye and, and having to report,

30. 42:19 – 43:25

    If you could be CEO of any other company, which would it be?

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich42:19

       uh, quarterly is something I'm getting used to.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings42:21

       If you could be CEO of any other company-

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich42:24

       (laughs)

    4. HSHarry Stebbings42:24

       ... what would it be and why?

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich42:26

       Seba, I'll give you two. Uh, one is from the payments world. Adyen. Eh, I- I don't want to be CEO of Adyen, but I really admire the way they've built it. They are a payments company, Dutch, humble, eh, global, serving every customer on Earth. I re- I really, really admire them. But the second one is, uh, probably the most interesting one, I want to be an, an MBA in GM. I really admire the guys that don't have the, the ... In the NBA, you have a franchise, you have a clear budget, you cannot over-spend, and you need to be smart and, and, and think in, in the long term. That's an amazing job to have.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings42:55

       What do you know now that you wish you'd known at the start of your career in tech, you know, 10 years ago?

    7. SKSebastián Kanovich43:05

       I would have want to know that everyone is trying to make it, and everyone is making it as they go, and no one has a perfect answer. Um, eh, when I see s- when I meet some of my idols in, in the business world, they are human beings. They make mistakes, they have lunch, dinner, they have wives and families, and ... Understanding that we are

31. 43:25 – 44:04

    Advice for founders from Uruguay (clip for youtube)

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich43:25

       all learning, that's something I would have wanted to know earlier.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings43:28

       You're the screaming success of Uruguay. When Uruguayan entrepreneurs, first-time founders, come to you and ask for advice, what do you tell them? Or what would you tell them? Like, what would you want them to listen to this and take away?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich43:42

       That they can dream bigger. It's, it's, it's, it sounds super cliché, but in, in ... from where I come from, you can build an amazing company from Uruguay and, and kill it globally. Eh, and there's no one that is smarter than you just because of where they were born. You need to show it. No one is gonna give it for you, eh, for, for free either. You need to go and get it. But there's no reason

32. 44:04 – 44:50

    What do the next five years hold for dLocal?

    1. SKSebastián Kanovich44:04

       why not.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings44:05

       Final one for you, Seba. What do the next five years hold for you and for dLocal? We have this show in 2027. Where are we then?

    3. SKSebastián Kanovich44:13

       Sure. dLocal will be in, in ... will be the s- the provider, the f- the financial services provider for emerging markets. We have ... We are only starting. We have 35 countries to date. We're gonna expand into more places. New products, pay-ins/pay-outs, issuing. Eh, the whole world in the pay- in the payments world to be built. And for me personally, who knows? Life is crazy. I would have had no idea that I would be here five more years. I don't know, I love what I do.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings44:37

       Seba, listen, I've loved doing this. Um, I'm so pleased that you got over the dislike of public speaking to talk to me. Uh, I really-

    5. SKSebastián Kanovich44:44

       (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings44:44

       ... appreciate that, and thank you so much for the time, my friend.

    7. SKSebastián Kanovich44:47

       Harv, thanks very much. Thanks for having me.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings44:49

       You are a star.

Episode duration: 44:50