Guillaume Moubeche, lempire Founder: Bootsrapping to $30M ARR Through Content & Brand | E1238

1. 0:00 – 1:01

   Intro

   1. GMGuillaume Moubeche0:00

      When I first started, I thought you had to be unique to succeed in a market, and you had to be, like, uh, the- the first mover in order to really succeed. But later on, I realized once a market is crowded, it means the product-market fit already exists. If they're not paying, it means that something is wrong. If you want the- the equation of sales, sales is equal timing times trust. Timing and trust is either equal to zero or one.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:26

      Ready to go? (instrumental music plays) Guillaume, listen, I am so excited for this. Dude, as I was saying beforehand, you are one of the coolest guests to do prep for, with some of the diligence material we got. So thank you so much for joining me today.

   3. GMGuillaume Moubeche0:48

      Thanks a lot for having me, to be honest. I'm super excited to be, uh, on the podcast. Big fan of everything you've done, so I'm sure it's gonna be a fun conversation.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:57

      Dude, it's gonna be really fun. I mean, there's no- I don't get guests like you very often, so this is awesome.

2. 1:01 – 8:51

   Scaling lempire to $28M ARR

   1. HSHarry Stebbings1:01

      You've bluntly scaled Lampyre to 28 million in ARR, I think it is. Like, fundamentally, talk to me about how's the scaling journey gone? What have been the highlights? What should people know as an intro?

   2. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:13

      Yeah, I think, like, uh, we- we started, uh, Lampyre with Lemlist in, uh, 2018. Uh, so Lemlist is a sales engagement platform. Um, and, uh, our biggest differentiator was essentially the- the personalization part. It was a very crowded market when we- we first got started. Um, and as we kept growing, uh, and, uh, having more product-market fit, I felt like, uh, it was time a bit for us, you know, to, uh, to start expanding, uh, the- the product line. So right now, Lampyre is a- a suite of, like, um, five tools that helps, uh, B2B businesses turn into big names. Uh, so we help them with, uh, customer acquisition from, uh, all sides. So it's- it's pretty exciting. Uh, I would say that it's been a- a hell of a ride, you know, with a- a lot of ups and downs, but the- the good thing is like, uh, we are- we've been, like, fully bootstrapped. Uh, so we will end up the year close to like 29 million in ARR with 10 million in, uh, EBDI. So it allows us to have a lot of, like, flexibility in what we wanna do and how we wanna do it, which, uh, is, uh- is pretty cool (laughs) .

   3. HSHarry Stebbings2:21

      I mean, th- those are good numbers. As a venture investor, I don't normally see those numbers, dude.

   4. GMGuillaume Moubeche2:25

      (laughs)

   5. HSHarry Stebbings2:25

      Uh, my first question to you there is, as a venture investor, I also go, "Oh God, Guillaume, really? That's such a crowded market."

   6. GMGuillaume Moubeche2:31

      (laughs)

   7. HSHarry Stebbings2:31

      Like, that is difficult place to win.

   8. GMGuillaume Moubeche2:33

      Yeah.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings2:34

      How do you advise founders who are told by investors, "Ugh, that's a really crowded market"?

   10. GMGuillaume Moubeche2:40

       I think it's... Uh, you have two way to- to approach it. Uh, it's, like, basically blue ocean versus, like, red ocean strategy. When I first started, I thought that, you know, like, you had to be unique to succeed in a market, and you had to be, like, uh, the- the first mover in order to- to really succeed. But later on, I realized that, uh, once a market is- is crowded, it means that the product-market fit already exists. It might not exist with your own product. But if you try and, uh, succeed in being better than competition, you can win big. So- so I think for me, it's just a different kind of bet, uh, that you're making from the start. Uh, and- and I remember that, (laughs) you know, like, uh, when I- when I first started, some people say that they are proud bootstrapper, and, uh, they were like hardcore bootstrapper from the start. And if I said that, I would be simply lying. (laughs) Uh, when I first started, I wanted to raise fund. I just got rejected so many times that (laughs) eventually, you know, like, uh, I became a- a bootstrapper. So it- it wasn't really by decision at first. (laughs)

   11. HSHarry Stebbings3:47

       What- w- what do you think you did differently because you couldn't raise money...

   12. GMGuillaume Moubeche3:51

       Yeah.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings3:51

       ... than you would have done if you had raised money?

   14. GMGuillaume Moubeche3:54

       First thing, we didn't have money. So I started the Lemlist with only $1,000, so I couldn't hire anyone. Um, and, uh, the- the things that I would have done with money is obviously, like, uh, hire people to do all the things that, uh, as a founder, I felt like were not, uh, worth of my time (laughs) , which was definitely a mistake. Uh, but typically, you know, like, uh, I see too many founders... 'Cause- 'cause right now I've invested, like, in- in around like 20 startups. We- I mean, with, uh, with Lampyre, I also cashed out $30 million, so made money along the way, etc., but, uh, I- I see that too many founders, you know, are afraid to do, like, sales, uh, because they believe that, you know, like, sales is a job like anyone can do, etc., but actually, sales is the most important skills, uh, you need to learn as a founder, uh, because everything is about sales. Uh, it's about sales when, uh, you want to hire, like, a- a top talent. It's about sales whenever you need to make your- your first dollars and understand, like, uh, what people, uh, are really buying, you know, like, uh, uh, what specifically they are buying. So the fact that I couldn't raise, I spent the first 18 months where I was doing pretty much like, uh, everything. Uh, so I would do like, uh, customer support. I always do like all the sales demos. I would also do like the marketing and website. So I would write content, and I- and I kind of start building, I would say, like, a- a very efficient customer acquisition engine, if I can call it that way. Um, and to sum it up, you know, like, uh, because our product, when you are in a very competitive market, you need to define clearly who your persona is gonna be. We started, you know, entering the market with, uh, the low end of SMBs, so mostly like, uh, founders. So people who can basically act quick and who are looking for the most innovative solution to have an edge. Um, and by entering that market, what I would do is I would eat my own dog food, so use Lemlist to do sales prospecting. Then, uh, you know, when I was in meetings with these founders, they would say, "Oh, I'm not sure if cold email actually works." So I- I would say...... "How the hell are we having this conversation right now?" And then they would say, "Through cold emails," and I was like, "Exactly." (laughs) So I would close deals in that manner. Uh, I would test, like, different approaches, different, uh, industries in my sales prospecting, and every campaign that would work really well, I would write content about it. The content was actually unique because no one at the time was actually sharing the actual sales prospecting that- messages that they would be sending. So that would help our user understand what's working and what's not, and at the same time, I was also... Because prior to launching Lemlist, I had a lead generation agency so I was already, like, running tons of sales prospecting campaigns and at that time, um, I was basically onboarding customers and telling them, "As long as I can do your sales prospecting campaigns for you, you will let me use the content that we create, uh, together with your own, like, uh, results and, uh, and sales prospecting messages." And they were fine with it. So I also leveraged our own customers', uh, stories to create a community, and from that community, you know, I got insights on how to get the- a better product, so I would like, uh, improve the product and then go again, you know, like start again eating my own dog food and testing, like, the new features, seeing whether or not they bring more or better results, and so on and so forth.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings7:30

       I- I- I love the content flywheel. What percent of new revenue came from content, broad strokes, versus outbound?

   16. GMGuillaume Moubeche7:37

       Creating content is basically the same as, uh, pushing a super heavy ball. You know, like, uh, there is a myth, I think it's like Sisyphus or something like this, yeah-

   17. HSHarry Stebbings7:49

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   18. GMGuillaume Moubeche7:49

       ... where he's, like, pushing this heavy, heavy, like, rock on top of the mountain and on his end, it always go back (laughs) , but for us, you know, it's like you push so you... It takes you a lot of effort and the effort for me was, like, creating content and doing sales prospecting. So I would say, like, the first year I- I closed around, like, 100 customers myself, which is equal to around, like, 300 demos, um, so 300 demos I- I had, like, basically, like, 33% conversion rate, so 100 customers, and for a year, almost zero customers were coming from the content, like, or- or very little. Uh, and after that, the content started, like, picking up and then, uh, Lemlist became, like, a- a company where that was really, like, driven through inbound, uh, and- and basically it became, like, outbound represented with the next years when we reached, like, millions in revenue it was, uh, maybe 20 or 30% outbound and 70% inbound. So it was, uh, yeah, quite crazy. (laughs)

3. 8:51 – 10:28

   Biggest Mistakes in Building a 0-to-1 Sales Playbook?

   1. GMGuillaume Moubeche8:51

   2. HSHarry Stebbings8:52

      I wanna go back to the early sales days there. When you were selling and you were, as you said there, doing 300 demos, 100 convert, what do you think are the biggest mistakes that founders make in the zero to one phase when it comes to creating that first sales playbook?

   3. GMGuillaume Moubeche9:05

      I think people are afraid to do sales prospecting. Like, they are afraid, you know, to put themself out there. They're afraid to sell. So I think, like, the- the biggest mistake is, uh, one, being afraid, like, uh, that you're not gonna sell, being afraid that, uh, your product is not ready. You know, like, it's a- there is always this thing, and for me it was the same, you know, like, when, uh, when you have to sell something that is obviously, like, not as good as competition 'cause they've been working on it for, like, five years, you know? (laughs) Like, so- so it's how do you find that unique selling point that's gonna make the conversion easier? And I think it's kind of like, uh, it requires, like, a lot of trial and errors because you're gonna believe that people are buying your product for X, Y or Z but in the end it can be something totally different. So I think, like, people are by definition afraid of rejection and what they love is to kind of, like, hide behind processes, behind, "We have this product roadmap," behind, like, "We're doing this and this," but I- I think the biggest mistake is not trying to sell, and if- if someone is not paying, whether your product is ready or not, if they're not paying it means that something is wrong. It means that the problem is not painful enough and that you should, like, uh, continue digging, continue talking to them to understand what is the main problem that you are solving.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings10:26

      Dude, I'm so-

   5. GMGuillaume Moubeche10:27

      Yeah (laughs) .

   6. HSHarry Stebbings10:27

      I'm- I'm still

4. 10:28 – 12:34

   Thoughts on Design Partners

   1. HSHarry Stebbings10:28

      enjoying this, but I'm in venture where we have a lot of well-funded companies and they say, "Oh, Harry, we have a lot of design partners and design partners don't pay any money."

   2. GMGuillaume Moubeche10:37

      Yeah.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings10:37

      How do you feel about design partners?

   4. GMGuillaume Moubeche10:40

      I think you shouldn't call someone design partner if they don't spend, uh, anything, you know. Like it's a- it's not a design partner, it's like a- it's- it's your grandmother being nice with you and telling you that you are, like, the most handsome person in the world, you know? (laughs)

   5. HSHarry Stebbings10:52

      (laughs)

   6. GMGuillaume Moubeche10:52

      Like, it's a- it doesn't work out, it's not gonna serve you, you know, in life. Like, sometimes you need just a- a- a ground check, you know? A- and I think design partners are obviously, like, um, great because, um, it's important to have feedback from key customers. More than key customers, I would focus on something that I call, like, the- the magnet persona. So- so for me, and- and this is something people also, like, uh, forget whenever they are, like, building a- a product, it's what's your magnet persona. And the magnet persona is basically the persona that will attract everyone around. So typically if you take Apple, for example, uh, you know, like, computers back in the days, they were, like, really, like, uh, for geeks and then, you know, it became, like, something that every company would add, et cetera, but Apple, they focused on designers. But why is it, like, a- a really awesome persona, designers? Because a designer, by definition, is cool and everyone wants to be cool, so if your persona is cool and if you're saying, like, "Apple is for designer," what it means is, like, Apple is cool, and now everyone's using iPhone, everyone's on Mac and you have even studies that shows that you actually feel, I think it's like 30% more creative when you're on a MacBook versus a fucking PC. So I'm like... (laughs) You know, like, it's- this- this is the power of a- a magnet persona. So whenever you are like, uh... For us typically, like, to bring it back to software, what is the target audience for us in our space?... that is linked to, uh, prospection and, uh, and, um, and, and sales, you know? So it was really, like, how can we define, like, within the sales teams, uh, the, the persona that's gonna be the most attractive?

5. 12:34 – 18:45

   The Ultimate Equation To Success In Sales

   1. GMGuillaume Moubeche12:34

   2. HSHarry Stebbings12:34

      How did you approach that? Because sales isn't always the coolest. SDRs are basically cold email monkeys in a lot of people's eyes. How did you identify who's the, the cool one that you want to be the persona?

   3. GMGuillaume Moubeche12:46

      So for us, it was actually, like, repositioning what sales is truly about. And for me, if you want the, the equation of sales, sales is equal timing times trust. Timing and trust is either equal to 0 or 1, because it's either the right moment or it's not, and it's either I trust you or I don't. There is not, like, "I trust you averagely." No it's... (laughs) If you trust someone averagely, you just don't trust them and you're just too polite to say it. So, so the goal was like, okay, on, on this principle, we believe that sales is all about relationship because sales is about, you know, like helping someone solve a very specific problem, and we want people to understand that sales is really about helping, that sales can be cool, and that sales rep should be enabled to have the right product to help them meet someone that needs help, you know? And, and by focusing really, like, on that persona and bring in the, the cool factor and the relationship factor into sales, we basically tied our solution with relationship and with revenue, meaning, like, uh, if you build relationship, obviously you're gonna make more sales. If you make more sales, Lemlist is basically your go-to tool because the ROI is, is easy to calculate. (laughs)

   4. HSHarry Stebbings14:03

      How much money did you make in that first year from the first 100 customers, broad strokes?

   5. GMGuillaume Moubeche14:08

      We started Lemlist, first line of code, January 2018. We started selling the product in April, so it took us, like, three months to have really, like, uh, first paying customers. Uh, and then in, uh, December 2018, we had 100 customers, and I would say that year to year, so, uh, April to April, we were at two hundred and fifty K, uh, ARR, I think. So $250,000, uh, and then after that, we, we, we grew very quickly to, like, uh, a million, and then to, uh, 10 million, it was three and a half years in total.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings14:42

      Okay, so now with the benefit of hindsight, dude, you can look back and go, "Oh, these were the fuck-ups that I made."

   7. GMGuillaume Moubeche14:47

      Yeah. (laughs)

   8. HSHarry Stebbings14:47

      When you look back at the first zero to 250K, that April to April, what are you like, "Oh, we fucked up on that"?

   9. GMGuillaume Moubeche14:55

      (laughs) Uh, yeah, o- one is, is really, like, something, uh, it was quite harsh but there are also some funny parts in it. Um, eventually, you know, I was, uh, really looking at how many visitors do we have, how many, like, um, customer are activated from the signups, uh, and, uh, how many are paying? So activation for us, it's basically, like, that one metric that you try to find in your software that's gonna tell you whether or not people see the value of what you've built. So for us, activation rate was how many people who signed up actually launched a sales prospecting campaign, and that number was, like, really crap at first. It was, like, something like 10%. So I tried to interview people but it was super hard because once people are unhappy with, uh, your product in self-service, obviously they don't wanna talk to you. (laughs) So, so I was like, okay, trying to search, and eventually I was like, "We need to re- redesign entirely the product." So we decided to redesign from scratch, uh, the entire flow to cre- to creating, like, campaign, and, uh, I remember pushing, uh, the, the new, the new project, like, uh, in production. Like, it was a Friday night (laughs) and I woke up Saturday, and on the community we had, they were, like, so many people, like, swearing at us, like, the support, it was insane the amount of messages. And people hated it, they hated the new interface, a lot of stuff were missing, et cetera. So it was crazy. We had the, the highest churn. Um, we, we lost, uh, yeah, I, I think the churn that month was close to, like, 50%, so that was, like, huge. Um, we fixed, you know, like, a lot of the bugs and a lot of the things we tried to improve, but when I looked one month after that... Because I, I still believed at the time that it was the right solution. I still believed that the one, you know, who churned didn't use the product as it was meant to be and they were using it for different use cases. So at that time, you know, it's, it's quite harsh because a lot of people, you know, like, uh, they were talking to me on the chat and then they say, like, "I wanna speak to a manager." (laughs) And I was like, "I'm the CEO," you know? Like, but they believed the company was, like, much bigger than we were, and, and it was just crazy how people would react. But a month and a half later when I look back at the activation with the new, uh, product and the new design, uh, and the new UX, sorry, we were actually, uh, from 10%, we went to close to, like, 45% and increased, uh, that month basically. Like, the, the month where we had 50% churn, I think we were at basically, like, uh, no growth at all because the acquisition kind of, like, uh, brought it back to, like, zero, and the month afterwards, we were at a growth, uh, growth rate of, like, 40% or something like that.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings17:43

       What did you change to take activation from 10 to 40%?

   11. GMGuillaume Moubeche17:46

       Yes. S- so essentially, like, uh, initially, the way it was built, you had to create, like, uh, different templates. You had to create a list. You had to create, like, uh, a lot of different things in different areas, and once you had created everything, then you had to combine everything into a campaign. But if you wanted to create a campaign and had not creating anything before, you couldn't. And that's why people were pissed off, because they did not understand that you had to be, like, uh... It wa- it was basically kind of like an engineered product, you know? Like, uh, first you build all the building blocks and you are very well structured and this is... And then later on, you combine it, you make test, and it's much easier for you to do it. But in reality, people, they want, you know, like, you should, uh, take them by the hand and say, "This is step one, then this is step two, this is logical, and step three," and so on and so forth. So that's what we did. We entirely rebuilt the campaign creation, making it, like, much easier for people to go from A to Z, and it changed, uh, pretty much everything at

6. 18:45 – 21:06

   Advise for Founders to Persist or Pivot?

   1. GMGuillaume Moubeche18:45

      that time.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings18:45

      How do you advise founders when they have 10% activation rates on their products or clear user dissatisfaction and they're just not sure whether they should keep going? What's your advice? 'Cause we have two opposing schools, which is, like, great entrepreneurs are persistent and just keep going, but then there's also a time when it's just not working and you should stop. How do you advise founders?

   3. GMGuillaume Moubeche19:06

      Activation rate and churn, for me, it's like two topics, um, that you need to approach by considering two different, uh, routes, I would say. The first route is, is it a marketing and acquisition problem? Because typically if I'm selling, like, uh, for sales and my product is meant for sales but the only people I'm attracting are marketers and, uh, you know, like, they're not gonna use it in the same way, then maybe it makes sense, you know, that your activation rate is super low or that your churn is super high. Uh, so that's like the- the first thing is, am I attracting, uh, the right customers? I think this is a question you- you should truly ask yourself. And then if you are and if these are the customers you want to attract, then the question you should ask yourself is, uh, why? You know, like, why is the activation rate so low? And- and is it because the problem is not pressing enough? Is it because, uh, of our software, UX? And for that, I think you- you should really go it- uh, go through it with, uh, the right tools so you can use, like, I don't know, like, a Hotjar or Mixpanel or whatever just to track, like, all the events and understand what people are doing and how they're doing it. But, and I think this is the most important because especially if you're like an engineering background founder, you're gonna say, "Oh, okay, I'm using all these tools and finding my answers myself," but this is not the best way. The best way for me is, like, pick up your phone. (laughs) Like, just call people and if they don't answer, call again and again and again until you get to a point. And- and it's fine, you know, like, uh, it's your right. Like, someone signed up to your project, they didn't like it, it's your right to understand why, you know. Like, you're an entrepreneur, you're like- uh, you have your mission, you should be, like, driven, you know. Like, it's super important and- and for me, I think people just- are just afraid to talk and sometimes when they're afraid to talk, you know, like, they just don't get to the bottom of it and they make assumptions that would just been like- uh, that would have been proven wrong just if they had picked up the phone and talk for

7. 21:06 – 23:46

   Top Lessons on Pricing in Competitive Markets

   1. GMGuillaume Moubeche21:06

      five minutes.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings21:06

      Can I ask, what's your biggest lessons on pricing in competitive markets? You've mentioned before about Bluntly being in a very competitive market.

   3. GMGuillaume Moubeche21:13

      Yeah.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings21:13

      How do you think about... Biggest lessons and reflections on pricing?

   5. GMGuillaume Moubeche21:19

      Pricing is really hard. What I can say is overall as your product... And this is, like, maybe a good rule, uh, for every founder, is like as your product evolves and as you're bringing more value, your price should increase. And this is a rule that you should have. And- and I think, like, our growth has been- uh, has been driven also by price increase at some point, and it's- it's quite helpful. Um, so don't hide behind like, oh, until the next feature or whatever. Like, increase your price every year at least, you know? And then it's also important to see where your market is heading, you know. Like, uh, we're in a phase with- uh, a lot of uncertainty. Um, I think economically also people are a bit, like, uh, more strict on what do they want to spend. Um, I think a lot of people are suffering in this market, not so much because, um, their price is too high, and a lot of people are saying that, but I don't think it's the case. I just believe it's that people are realizing that if they're not using a tool, they shouldn't pay for it. And if you look at like the amount of enterprise accounts which have been sold onto 1,500, uh, license or user or seats or however you want to call it and actually only like 15 people are using it, yes, it's normal that the CFO comes in and say, "Maybe we shouldn't pay, you know, that price." (laughs) You know, like... So- so- so for pricing, I would do like two aspect. One, it's like increase price regularly if you're still delivering like a lot of value. And the second thing is, uh, look at your market because sometimes, like, uh, pricing is- is changing and evolving in a market and you need also to adapt to what's happening.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings22:56

      Can I ask you, when did you decide to do a second product? You have Lemlist, it's going well. At what revenue is Lemlist when you do a second product?

   7. GMGuillaume Moubeche23:05

      So the- the first- the second product is a product we actually, like, sold and it was, uh, I think a year and a half after Lemlist.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings23:12

      So what revenue were you at there? Like 500K?

   9. GMGuillaume Moubeche23:15

      Uh, yeah. We're more like- I think we're more- we're closer to a million, I think at that time.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings23:21

       Okay, closer to a million. Why do a second product? This is when you're just getting a community t- to be built, you're getting a brand.

   11. GMGuillaume Moubeche23:29

       Yeah.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings23:29

       Why- why lose focus with a second product?

   13. GMGuillaume Moubeche23:32

       (laughs) Yeah, that's- that's a- that's a very good question. I think, like, uh, focus is my enemy. (laughs) I'm- I'm more like Mr. Chaos, but, uh, it took me, uh, years of, uh, psychotherapy to realize it.

8. 23:46 – 32:57

   Are Unrealistic Expectations a Strength or a Weakness?

   1. GMGuillaume Moubeche23:46

      (laughs)

   2. HSHarry Stebbings23:46

      I spoke to your team before this show.

   3. GMGuillaume Moubeche23:48

      Mm-hmm.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings23:48

      Um, I'm not gonna name- I'm not gonna name who said this-

   5. GMGuillaume Moubeche23:50

      (laughs)

   6. HSHarry Stebbings23:50

      ... but one of them said you were unrealistic in your expectations.

   7. GMGuillaume Moubeche23:55

      Yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings23:56

      And that was a challenge. Do you think that is fair? And to what extent is that good because it pushes teams versus bad because it creates challenging environments?

   9. GMGuillaume Moubeche24:06

      I don't think it as, uh, as something really bad, to be honest, because if you had said that in 2018 in a market where, uh, you have Salesloft, Outreach, who are around for three, four years and then hundreds of other competitors who have raised like tens of millions, that a French company out of Paris would have like thousands of customers in the US, be international, grow to like, uh, 28 million in AR and 10 million in EBITDA in like six and a half years, yes, this is totally unrealistic. (laughs) You know? Like it's- uh, yeah, it's- it's against the odds. So I think sometimes you truly need to dream big and be unrealistic.... if you want to achieve something that very few have done in the past. So for me, I think, I think it's fine, yeah.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings24:58

       When has being unrealistic hurt you?

   11. GMGuillaume Moubeche25:01

       I think I got cocky eventually, or too confident. What hit me hard was, growth is not exponential. When you have, like, an exponential growth, it's actually not. Mathematically, it's never truly an exponential. It's always a S-curve, and the companies that maintain, you know, that, and that make it looks like an exponential are the one that were smart enough to plan for the next S-curve. And we weren't. And we weren't because eventually I got too cocky and I was so confident that everything we would do, that our top-up funnel and that our market was so big, that no matter the core problem we had from the wrong targeting and the high churn of certain segments, no matter what we would do, we would always find more and more customer. Like, the, the bucket can be leaking but if your top of funnel is always bigger, there is no issue. And this is when I got cocky, this is when it hurt us, and this is where we faced, like, a plateau.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings26:02

       What happened specifically?

   13. GMGuillaume Moubeche26:04

       What happens is, uh, your company from a, a day to another, uh, start plateauing. (laughs) You, you don't see this two-digit months over months growth rates, uh, you don't understand why, um, you're, like, thinking that you're doing something wrong, you're trying to, to find, you know, like, uh, what's not working and you don't understand. You don't understand no matter what you do because when you are very driven by, uh, inbound, by content, by all of these things, you don't track. You don't track what brings what because the, the reality is, like, um, you know, like, there is a quote by Gary V that I like that says, "What's the ROI of your mom?" And what it means, you know, it's like, obviously your mom, she gave everything for you, you know, like, uh, she was ... Maybe she gave you, like, the extra confidence. My mom is Italian so obviously, like, she loves me a lot, etc. So, so it's like, she gives me, like, extra confidence, she gave me love, she gave me, like, a lot of things. And how exactly do you measure that ROI in your life? It's almost impossible. For me, marketing is the same. For VC-backed companies, when you go and you are, like, at a board meeting, obviously you have to show that your marketing effort are bringing revenue. So what do most VC-backed companies do? They spend money and marketing money on ads, on, let's say, SEO where you can track, like, the conversion of articles, even though that's inaccurate. You try to build, like, a, a model, uh, that, uh, gives you, like, the attribution that is also inaccurate, but everyone is fine with it because it looks good on slides. And all of that, what we don't realize is the amount of money it requires to build that tracking team, to build that data team, to have, like, all this conversation with people on what should we do, should we continue, should we do X, Y, Z?

   14. HSHarry Stebbings27:51

       Yeah.

   15. GMGuillaume Moubeche27:51

       And my approach to business is much more simple. For me, it's like, it has always been about are we proud of the content that we deliver? Is this bringing enough value for our users to be helpful in the problem that they are trying to solve? And if the answer is yes, then we continue to do it. So when you have this mindset, obviously when something, uh, is not working anymore, it's very, very hard because you're kind of, like, shooting in the dark. You don't know what's working, what's not working and, uh. And for us that was very tricky and, um, and what we had to do at the time was essentially, like, uh, start understanding the core metrics and for us, and that's why, you know, I mentioned churn the, a bit earlier, it was understanding what is the persona that is not churning? Meaning what is the persona we're bringing the most value to? And that persona were actually, like, sales team over, like, four people. So when a sales team has more than four people, we realize that the net retention was over 100% monthly. Whereas when it's, like, a founder or a marketer or, like, the first employee of a startup, the churn can be up to, like, 15% monthly because obviously these guys, by definition, sometimes their business doesn't work, sometimes they can't find customers, sometime X, Y, Z reason happen.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings29:20

       I think the biggest mistake that founders make today is, is they approach a launch, they get more and more nervous that no one will adopt their product, and they expand the target market from sales leaders to sales and marketing, to sales and marketing and early stage founders. And then you mean less and less to more and more people and it doesn't resonate with anyone.

   17. GMGuillaume Moubeche29:38

       Yeah. Yeah. I, I 100% agree. I think, like, uh, the best companies for me are the ones, you know, who have, like, a, a very specific use case. And that's where we're heading right now. It's like, uh, we know that from, let's say 40 ... From, fr- from, sorry, four sales rep to 100 sales rep, we know that we're the best tools on the market and we're building it right now. You know, it's, it's like, uh, we're bui- we're doing everything to, to build that for, uh, the current economy.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings30:03

       So when you had that plateau moment, that hard moment, how much in revenue then? Where's the business at, at that stage?

   19. GMGuillaume Moubeche30:10

       Um, at the time I think we were around, like, uh, 13 or 14 million in, uh, annual recurring revenue.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings30:17

       Wow. Okay. Shit. Okay.

   21. GMGuillaume Moubeche30:18

       Yeah.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings30:19

       That's a lot more money. So at this point, are we having VCs just massively inbound us, trying to give us money?

   23. GMGuillaume Moubeche30:25

       I always receive because the, the thing is, like, I've been building in public since day one, so I share, like, revenue metrics, etc., and obviously that attracts (laughs) some investors. Um, but when you're high in, uh, in, uh, EBITDA, like, uh, I had to learn about what secondary meant and what cash out meant because for me, at the time, the only thing I saw was, like, fundraising, meaning you take money, uh, and you put it in your company's bank account and then you spend it to hire more people, etc., but I felt like it was not the solution for us. I don't think that hiring more-... is always the answer to growing faster and, uh, and actually I think sometimes it's the opposite. I've seen too many times, you know, like, uh, you hire too quickly, you hire the wrong people, uh, you can't keep, like, a high level, you know, like, uh, and, and a high talent density and eventually, like, uh, it's, uh... But in some cases it's, it's really helpful, but here, in our case, I just felt it wasn't, uh, the right timing. So I had another investor approaching us and talking about cash out and secondary, and in that end I was like, "Okay, tell me more." (laughs) . And, uh, it's basically when the money goes directly to the founder, uh, and I think this is really awesome. Uh, it's a-

   24. HSHarry Stebbings31:37

       Okay. W- we're, w- we're gonna get into that. I'm just intrigued. Uh, uh, fundraising, I'm a venture investor so I'll just come back with a couple of things.

   25. GMGuillaume Moubeche31:43

       Yeah.

   26. HSHarry Stebbings31:43

       Uh, it is my business, so expect me to sell. Would you not have benefited from being able to invest more in product, more in design, more in building out a content team? If the business had had more cash, you could have built much more sophisticated product growth and content teams.

   27. GMGuillaume Moubeche31:58

       Well, the only thing I know is once we started making a lot of profits, uh, before we acquired another business, so we had, like, uh, some cash in the bank that we used for M&A but we use it, like, uh, for a different purpose. I- if we, we, we started spending more on hiring, and I remember in, uh, in six months at the time, we, we doubled the team almost, uh, a- and we were like, uh, maybe, like, from 30 to 60 people. I realized how bad hiring could really kill your company. A- and for me, you know, I, I have this feeling where sometimes when you feel the pressure to hire more, to spend faster, et cetera, if you're not, um, skilled enough, it's gonna be, like, really, really bad for your company and it can kill it. And in full transparency, I wasn't good enough at hiring at the time for me to be able to handle, like, uh,

9. 32:57 – 35:43

   Lessons on Hiring

   1. GMGuillaume Moubeche32:57

      a fundraising.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings32:58

      What have been your biggest lessons on hir- uh, hiring then? Like, bluntly, it's the hardest thing a founder will do-

   3. GMGuillaume Moubeche33:03

      Yeah. I-

   4. HSHarry Stebbings33:03

      ... but given that assessment what are your biggest lessons?

   5. GMGuillaume Moubeche33:06

      Few lessons. Uh, one, I think you should hire people who have done it already (laughs) . That's, like, literally, like, 'cause, uh, bootstrap mindset, you know, it, it gives kind of the underdog vibe, so from the start I kept this underdog mindset, like, "I'm gonna only find underdogs, the talent that no one knew they existed, and I'm gonna show them that we're the Avengers and we're gonna, like, you know, like, be the fucking rock stars, uh, with, uh, no resume, no schools, like, e- lot of grit, lot of talent." And that works to a certain extent. But when you really wanna scale your, your company and scale it, like, faster, having people who have done it in other companies, who have seen what rapid scale is, is really, really helpful. Second thing, pay people and create a package where people are extremely well paid for their, you know, like, their role, et cetera. And the reason you should do it is because hiring is extremely emotional. You know, like, uh, you get attached to people, you get, you know, like, you have a... It's, it's something that, uh, everyone you know wants, like scorecard and try to make it as an engineer, like, "Okay, how many points do they have for this skill?" Et cetera. This is bullshit. Like, hiring, you know, it's like, uh, you sh- you know, like, it's, it, it's the same, you know at school we teach you that there are only, like, five, uh, five sense, you know it's like, uh, touch, sight, taste, uh, hearing, and, uh, taste or whatever. But actually intuition is the sense that everyone should build. Your intuition, your gut feeling, this is, like, uh, the, the strongest moment, the strongest things, you know? And in hiring you should always trust it. Um, so for me, whenever, you know, you have someone with, um, a really good package that you are paying extremely well, the reason it's helpful is because if they don't deliver, it's super easy for you to let them go fast and find someone who could. And really, like, paying someone maybe, like, uh, 20% more than what they are offered usually help you find the 10X profile.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings35:11

      Why does paying them more help you get rid of them faster if they're not good?

   7. GMGuillaume Moubeche35:16

      Maybe that's my relationship with money, but it's, like, everyone, you know, like, uh, you're in a company so it's basically a capitalistic model where, uh, every person needs to bring something to the table, and if they don't deliver and if they can't, uh, give a certain ROI on their salary then it's easy, you know, like, to just say, "It's, it's not an investment anymore, it's a cost," and it's a cost that can be, you know, like, just, uh, just, uh, should be different, you know. It should be an investment and not a cost.

10. 35:43 – 37:56

    Hiring Mistakes

    1. GMGuillaume Moubeche35:43

    2. HSHarry Stebbings35:43

       What are the biggest hiring mistakes that you made that you look back on now?

    3. GMGuillaume Moubeche35:47

       One thing that, uh, I think would help me is like, uh, after an interview, asking myself, "Do I see myself working for 10 years with that person?" Like, "Do I like their energy?" Or, like, uh, these kind of things, I think is super important. And sometime it's not even that people don't have the right skills, it's not even that they're not gonna be great at their job, it's just, like, if you don't get on well with someone, your job is not gonna be as fun, and to be honest, it's so tedious. Like, you shouldn't, you shouldn't make these hires.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings36:16

       Do you do one-on-ones?

    5. GMGuillaume Moubeche36:18

       I used to. Now I'm not, uh, I'm not so much in the, in the operational anymore. This is kind of actually you, you come at a, at a moment where this is a transition phase for me but, uh, yeah (laughs) .

    6. HSHarry Stebbings36:29

       Because you're moving to a chairman role?

    7. GMGuillaume Moubeche36:31

       Uh, ah, you're good Harry (laughs) . Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings36:36

       I, I, I'm a venture investor, dude-

    9. GMGuillaume Moubeche36:37

       (laughs)

    10. HSHarry Stebbings36:37

        ... we see this happen a lot. Um, okay. I, I get you totally. Can I ask you, I would say that if you took venture funding you would've had someone, if you took a good VC, who would've been able to predict ahead of time the plateau, and made your exponential growth, uh, stay exponential. Do you think that's true?

    11. GMGuillaume Moubeche36:56

        I, I think it's difficult, you know, like, uh, to predict because, uh, you know, it's like, uh ...Your mistakes are like a, a light that only lights your own path. I don't know if this is the quote, but you know what I mean, you know. It's like, uh, your learnings are your own. So sometimes you just gotta go through, you know, the mistakes. And having someone else give you insights on something might not really... Like, uh, you have to choose, you have to pick your battles. So for us, what we believed was like, uh, it's not a personal issue, it's a product issue, and we have a strong roadmap to fix it, so let's go, let's iterate. And, and then we realized that it was not the... (laughs) that wasn't the case, you know?

    12. HSHarry Stebbings37:34

        With Expedition, you sold $30 million worth?

    13. GMGuillaume Moubeche37:37

        Yeah. So the company was, uh, worth, uh, $150 million. Um, my two co-founder left, uh, and we each took like, uh, $10 million, so now I own about like 70% of the business. I cashed out $10 million personally, and I'm like the solo founder, uh, left since around like four years now.

11. 37:56 – 42:15

    How Did $10M Changed the Mindset?

    1. GMGuillaume Moubeche37:56

    2. HSHarry Stebbings37:56

       How did your mindset change getting $10 million in cash? I come from a family of no money. Getting $10 million in cash is a lot of money.

    3. GMGuillaume Moubeche38:04

       Yeah. It's, it's crazy to be honest. Like, uh, I was feeling so grateful, like, uh, about it because it's, uh... For me, money, you know, it's like, uh, it has always been like a stress, like lacking of money and this kind of thing. It's, it's something that, uh... The fear of lacking of money is something I realized that will never go away, (laughs) uh, just because it's so deep, you know, in the, into like, uh, how I was raised, like looking at every s- every item price in the supermarket, uh, not going on holiday with my parents, like this kind of things. But what I realized is, like, uh, money can buy, like, freedom, and freedom is what I like the most. So I'm not someone, you know, who spends like a crazy amount of moneys on Lamborghini, etc. Like, I love the simple things, like, uh, I love to go hiking with a tent on holiday. Like, this is my kind of vibe. Uh, but, uh, having the freedom to, uh, do whatever I want, go whenever, wherever I want, etc., this is, like, uh, priceless. But the, the... I think the, the best thing, you know, it's like, um... One, when you get that much money, you realize that if you're not totally dumb, uh, that money can help you, like, live, uh, your entire life without ever working again, which kind of like, um, gave me more ambition, you know. Like it's, uh... Now that I've done this, I feel like I can do something much bigger, I can take, like, bigger risk, and I can be more ambitious for the company. Uh, and, uh, that was really great. And the second-best thing is like, uh, how can you help your parents retire? For me, that was like, uh, the best feeling in the world, you know. Like I... Everyone asked me, "Did you buy yourself crazy, something crazy?" etc., and I was like, "Uh, no, but I helped my parents retire, and I give them money, and this feels like, uh, just awesome," you know?

    4. HSHarry Stebbings39:50

       That... No, that's a very special thing. I, I do have to ask, only kind of like it makes you more ambitious, respectfully, why move into a chairman role then? Like, why not, like, go fucking big, like, you know, Wolf of Wall Street ♪ Ah ♪

    5. GMGuillaume Moubeche40:04

       (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings40:04

       ... and like, like lead from the front with real, like, hunger and tenacity?

    7. GMGuillaume Moubeche40:09

       It's, it's a very good question. Um, it's a very good question. In full transparency-

    8. HSHarry Stebbings40:15

       Right. It's like Europe, Europe is always characterized as like we make a little bit of money, and then we're like, "Oh, fuck it. Peace out."

    9. GMGuillaume Moubeche40:22

       (laughs)

    10. HSHarry Stebbings40:22

        Um, (laughs) don't peace out.

    11. GMGuillaume Moubeche40:25

        Yeah. Uh, this is not the plan. Uh, it is just like, um... 'Cause, okay, I, I think people see chairman as, uh... and in most cases this is the case, like someone who just like lay back and don't do shit and just like come to the board meeting and is just like giving, uh, his vision on strategy and the goals he had. On my end, it's, it's just that I need to focus on the things that I feel I'm the best at. And for me, this is like the top-up funnel. So it's, uh, you know, like the conferences. It's like the, the, um... Basically, like, uh, creating contents, uh, whether it's webinars, whether it's like attracting like, uh, a, a different type of audience. And, uh, and I think, like, the, the CEO is more like the, the person who's gonna operate on the day-to-day and needs to be, like, in the trenches. And because I hired someone who's, like, extremely talented and skilled at that role for 18 months now, I feel like this is the time for him to have that role, uh, because he's definitely better than me. Uh, so it's, so it's, so it's really, you know, not about, like, me just, like, uh, stepping down and just being away from the business, etc., but it's, uh... (laughs) I see you're smiling. (laughs) You don't believe me.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings41:36

        Uh, no, I, I, I believe you. I'm just like, if you were in America, you'd step up.

    13. GMGuillaume Moubeche41:41

        Mm-hmm.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings41:41

        You'd be like, "I can be the CEO that they want me to be. I can be the CEO for the next generation. And I will surround myself with great mentors. But founder-led companies is where enterprise value is created, and I will fuck-"

    15. GMGuillaume Moubeche41:53

        Mm-hmm.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings41:53

        And dude, you are like the most, like, hungry, ambitious, like Ironman-training dude.

    17. GMGuillaume Moubeche41:59

        (laughs)

    18. HSHarry Stebbings41:59

        Like, you wouldn't quit a marathon at 24 miles.

    19. GMGuillaume Moubeche42:02

        (laughs) Yeah. No, no, no. It's, uh... It, it's, it's a good question. I, I think in any case, like, um, I wanna give it a try and see, you know, like, uh, how it goes, but, uh, it's, uh... Yeah.

12. 42:15 – 50:46

    A Framework for Content Creation & Distribution

    1. GMGuillaume Moubeche42:15

    2. HSHarry Stebbings42:15

       Dude, I totally get it. My question to you then is like, I totally see your superpowers of content, of inspiration, of motivation. Uh, e- we mentioned the media flywheel earlier. When you think about content creation, obviously it's my business too, how do you think about the creation process for you? Do you have a framework around idea, thought process, creation, distribution? How does that work for you?

    3. GMGuillaume Moubeche42:40

       Yeah. I, I like to say, you know, like, uh, if you want inspiration, read. If you want clarity, write. So my goal is to always have, uh, an easy way to capture ideas, whether it's a recording, taking notes, uh, and all these kind of things. And then after that, I just, uh, put all my ideas in one place, and then I rank them.And I think an idea is kind of like, uh, a plant and a little seed. So before it becomes, like, uh, a tree or a plant, uh, i- it needs time, you know? It needs, like, the right soil, it needs, like, the right condition, the right environment. So for me, like, all ideas are great, are all my seeds, but sometimes, you know, like, uh, I will decide to put more focus and attention on one and sometimes I need time to develop them. So the way I do it is, um, I would write just ideas all over the place and sometimes I just spend time on my ideas and I start writing about them and kind of get the inspiration and I do something that's, uh, that's typically pretty weird for, uh, for people, where people like focus, but as I say, I'm Mr. Chaos. Um, let's say I wanna write, like, a LinkedIn post, um, whenever I'm writing, like, a LinkedIn post I can write maybe, like, uh, I don't know, 15, uh, or 20 posts in an hour. Uh, and the way I'm gonna do it is I'm not gonna write one post at a time, I'm gonna write, like, three or four posts at the same time. So I can write one sentence for one that gives me an idea for the third one and the fourth one at the same time, and then, uh... Which is quite weird, but I- I think this is how my brain works in general. It's like, uh, I like to do, like, multiple things at the same time, uh, and I always switch and go back to one and everything builds up, uh, in parallel, but I like it, especially when it comes to creating and writing and whether it's video or- or writing content, because it's, uh... While I wrote something, I feel like it gives me time to assess the idea a little bit later and I'm not just, like, uh, you know, like, smashing my head against the wall on one single things.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings44:43

       Do you do content repurposing? When you think about creating videos for TikTok, for YouTube Shorts, you name it, do you see what works on other platforms before creating content that's repurposed? Do you do three different formats? How do you think about, like, media packaging for different platforms?

    5. GMGuillaume Moubeche44:59

       Yeah, I- I think it's super important to repurpose your content. It's super, super important because, like, um, when you're a content creator, you usually create content because you like to teach and you like to learn. Or at least that's the way I see, you know? It's like, if you wanna... I- I'm guessing, like, uh, you started your podcast because you love to learn new things and... No?

    6. HSHarry Stebbings45:20

       No, I wanted a job.

    7. GMGuillaume Moubeche45:22

       (laughs)

    8. HSHarry Stebbings45:22

       I really did. I wanted a job from an investor and I was like, "Shit, if I meet them through a podcast they'll give me a job."

    9. GMGuillaume Moubeche45:27

       Nice.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings45:27

        But yeah, I wanted to learn too, sure.

    11. GMGuillaume Moubeche45:30

        And then it became kind of like this, uh... Of course, like, you have the- the fun aspect of meeting new people, but I think you're always learning things and it's exciting. A- a- and for me, you know, like, this is the thing, it's like, uh, content creators, because they are learning always new things, they're usually afraid to reuse content that worked well. But if it works well, it's, uh, it's for a reason. So when something works well, I usually like... Even my LinkedIn post, sometimes I- I take the same post and I just rewrite it and again and again and again and again and I'm gonna post it multiple times and every time it's gonna be a hit and, uh, and then, you know, you can do it, like, uh, on a Reel or a TikTok and see whether or not it's working well. And step by step like this you can repurpose what's working, reusing it and, uh, and learning more and more about your audience.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings46:17

        Do you find if it works on one platform it works on all platforms?

    13. GMGuillaume Moubeche46:21

        No, it's not... (laughs) I wish.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings46:25

        No?

    15. GMGuillaume Moubeche46:25

        (laughs) I wish, I wish. It's, uh-

    16. HSHarry Stebbings46:26

        There's quite a lot bangs on LinkedIn-

    17. GMGuillaume Moubeche46:28

        Yeah.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings46:28

        ... but then when I take it to even Twitter-

    19. GMGuillaume Moubeche46:31

        Yeah.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings46:31

        ... not really.

    21. GMGuillaume Moubeche46:32

        No. O- on Twitter if your name is, uh, is not Elon Musk it's hard to get rich these days.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings46:37

        Your strategy around content is still relatively novel for founders. How do you respond to founders who say, "Listen, Guillaume, I love what you do, but I'm just... I'm not that into personal brand. That's just not me." How do you respond to them?

    23. GMGuillaume Moubeche46:52

        (laughs) More, more room for us... (laughs) No, in- in full transparency it's like, um, putting yourself out there and creating content will help your business 100%. It will help your business because it will help you build trust. With more trust it means slower sales... Like, faster sale cycle, uh, more leads, and more revenue down the line. As a founder, it's also a great way, you know, to, uh, meet a lot of interesting people, because the truth is there are millions of businesses who have great stories to tell but f- you've never heard about them because they don't document anything, they don't write anything, and when these businesses reach out you're like, "Who are you?" And- and I think, like, content is the easiest way to show, "Hey, this is what I'm doing. If you think that I'm interesting, if you think that I'm someone worth talking after you watch my- my- my videos or my content, then let's chat." And- and this is the easiest way to have, like, a- a window at someone's brain. And right now I don't say that, like, to brag or anything, but when I do, like, uh, sales prospecting or when I just, like, outbound someone for, uh, an intro, for a message, for just a networking call, the reply rate is huge, which means that every single year I'm meeting, like, smarter, uh, and more interesting people and- and so on and so forth, which helps me grow, which helps me become, like, a- a better version of myself, and this is unique. So as a founder, creating content helps you become a better founder.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings48:39

        I completely agree with you. Um, I- I remember... We just raised $400 million for a new fund. And I remember-

    25. GMGuillaume Moubeche48:44

        Congrats. Yeah, I saw that. Congrats. That's awesome.

    26. HSHarry Stebbings48:46

        Thank you. But we'd get on calls with endowment funds and suddenly, like, the CIO, the boss of the f- uh, endowment would be there and they'd be like, "I just wanted to meet you."

    27. GMGuillaume Moubeche48:55

        (laughs)

    28. HSHarry Stebbings48:55

        And you're like, "Wow," like, "Really? That's so sweet." Like, but that is the power of content where normally-

    29. GMGuillaume Moubeche49:01

        Yeah.

    30. HSHarry Stebbings49:01

        ... you would never get that. Can I ask you, I worry that in my business, and a lot of founders worry this, you cheapen the brand by being everywhere, by being too volume-driven, just a lot of TikToks, a lot of You- how do you feel about brands being cheapened by volume?
13. 50:46 – 55:58

    Is There Concern About Employees Leveraging Personal Brands?

    1. HSHarry Stebbings50:46

       we spoke about, yeah, you posting building a brand. You have team members with thousands and thousands of followers. Most people would be a little bit worried that they are building credibility to leverage into other jobs to start their own companies. How do you feel about this?

    2. GMGuillaume Moubeche51:01

       I think this is like a, a two-sided problem. One, people who worry about it usually have trust issue, you know? It's, it's the same thing that, uh, if they date someone that is like, uh, uh, higher number than they are, uh, that they're gonna say, "Oh, she's gonna dump me," or whatever. Like, th- this is a trust issue, it's, it's not something, you know, like, uh, you can deal with unless you go to a therapist and you start (laughs) working on it. But the, the reason why people leave a company, you know, it's usually, like, uh, not because, uh, they just get, like, a, a better salary elsewhere, you know? Like, it's, uh, it's multitude of different factors and your role as a founder is to make sure that the person in your team are maximizing their potential, learning new thing, uh, and also are in the right place. And sometimes the right place mean that they need to be elsewhere and in another company and you should always cheer for them when they decide to move on. Uh, and then the second thing is, like, uh, maybe they're leveraging, like, your company to build a brand and then, like, uh, do something else. Yes, but why is that a problem? Because while they are building, like, their brands, uh, they bring also a lot of, like, positive, um, you know, like, uh, a lot of leads to the business. Uh, w- right now, like, just to give you an example, we reach about, like, 10 million people every quarter on LinkedIn without spending a single dollar on ads, just through, like, uh, our networks. And that's, like, uh, that's like millions of dollars in revenue every year. So, so technically, like, I'm happy that I have trained everyone in the team to build a personal brand, I'm happy, you know, that I've created all these, like, uh, uh, yeah, trainings, uh, and coaching program, uh, just to explain how- to people how to do it, and some of them have left and when people go to their LinkedIn profile, the thing they will see is that they, they were at Lempire eventually, you know? And this is still, like, uh, good for the brand, good for what we do.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings52:51

       What do you know now about content creation and distribution that you wish you'd known when you started? I think about this one a lot.

    4. GMGuillaume Moubeche52:59

       Yeah.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings53:00

       So, like, for me, I wish we'd done video earlier. I was super arrogant about not doing YouTube earlier.

    6. GMGuillaume Moubeche53:05

       Mm (laughs) .

    7. HSHarry Stebbings53:06

       And it was fucking stupid. We've got, you know, uh, l- so many subs on audio. You know, we've got, you know, hundreds of thousands on TikTok and hundreds of thousands on YouTube now.

    8. GMGuillaume Moubeche53:15

       Nice.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings53:15

       Not millions.

    10. GMGuillaume Moubeche53:17

        Soon (laughs) .

    11. HSHarry Stebbings53:19

        But I'm sure if, when we started 10 years ago, if I'd just done YouTube, way better. That's a big regret for me.

    12. GMGuillaume Moubeche53:24

        Mm. For, for me, I think, like, um, what I wish I knew when I got started is that, uh, it takes time. Like, uh, 'cause usually, like, people want instant virality and I think right now, like, uh, everyone, you know, who spent a bit of time on TikTok, you know, had luck eventually and got, like, one Reels that got, like, millions, et cetera. But if you want to build something in the long term, you need consistency and you need time. And I th- I, I see, like, um, I got discouraged several times, um, on Instagram Reels, like, where I stopped eventually, et cetera, like, uh, in the early days and I shouldn't. Uh, I came back at it with, uh, another strategy that was based on, uh, output and not outcome. So this is an approach that I like, uh, which is, uh, I call it, like, the 100 day rule but essentially it's like, uh, the output is what you control because you can control that you're gonna post, uh, one video per day or that you're gonna post, uh, one LinkedIn post per day. But you can't control, uh, the outcome, meaning, like, how many followers you're gonna get, how many, like, uh, views you're gonna get. So by just focusing on the output, I was like, "Okay, now I'm gonna go for 100 days and no matter what happens, I don't even look at the follower count." And you just do it. And whenever you do this for 100 days, once you realize that you are getting better each day, which basically helps you, like, build also a bit more confidence. Second, you start liking it because at first you suck and now you suck a bit less so you, you start enjoying it a bit more. And then in the long run, you, you will see some results. It doesn't mean that you're gonna become a superstar straight away, but you will start seeing some results and you start having some conversation. Uh, something I've done also with, uh, my head of sales is, uh, I've been writing, like, uh, all his LinkedIn posts (laughs) for, like, uh, like, I basically wrote, like, around, uh, two months worth of content (laughs) , uh, and, and it generated, like, uh, really good meetings, really good deals (laughs) , uh, step by step, you know?

    13. HSHarry Stebbings55:23

        Do you know it took us 100 shows before we got 1,000 plays?It was over two years before I thought... I mean, that is, that is bad, uniquely bad.

    14. GMGuillaume Moubeche55:33

        (laughs)

    15. HSHarry Stebbings55:33

        Like, and I-

    16. GMGuillaume Moubeche55:34

        But you continued. That's, that's the best. Yeah.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings55:36

        But I continued. And 10 years, it's a game of who survives the longest.

    18. GMGuillaume Moubeche55:39

        Yeah.

    19. HSHarry Stebbings55:39

        There's, only 2% of podcasts make it past episode 50.

    20. GMGuillaume Moubeche55:43

        That's insane. Insane stats.

    21. HSHarry Stebbings55:45

        Yeah. Um, okay, I wanna talk a little bit about you, 'cause I said at the beginning, you were like... Well, I mean, relatively, like, incredibly cool, but also fucking weird in some respects-

    22. GMGuillaume Moubeche55:54

        (laughs)

    23. HSHarry Stebbings55:54

        ... which I love. I know, it's, it's great, right? It's so much more interesting for me.

14. 55:58 – 57:06

    The Accident During Ironman Prep

    1. HSHarry Stebbings55:58

       Y- you know, you trained for a Ironman, then got hit by a car. Can you just tell me what happened?

    2. GMGuillaume Moubeche56:05

       It was actually, like, uh, I, I really wanted to do a, an Ironman in 2024, um, so I started training in January. Uh, lots of ups and downs of the Ironman training, but I was really aiming for a, an actual, like, a, a really good time during the Ironman. And one week before the race, I was doing my last, uh, bike training, and eventually, like, uh, a car came, uh, just, uh, smashed my back and, uh, and, uh... And yeah, my bike was, like, cut in half. The car was, uh, also, like, really broken because, uh, it felt like a deer went on the side of the car, but the deer was me. (laughs) Um, I broke my ribs, I had, like, ligaments in my shoulder that were torn away, and obviously I couldn't race. But I finished an Ironman recently in, uh, California, so it took me, uh, it took me, like, uh, a bit more than four months to recover. Uh, but having a race in mind, uh, was really, like, the driver for me to recover a lot

15. 57:06 – 1:01:09

    Do Fit & Healthy Entrepreneurs Perform Better

    1. GMGuillaume Moubeche57:06

       faster.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings57:07

       I believe that entrepreneurs who are fit and healthy make better entrepreneurs because they are disciplined and they are able to be consistent and they can control their mind, w- even when they don't want to do something. Do you agree with me?

    3. GMGuillaume Moubeche57:21

       I wanna say yes, because, like, (laughs) I'm an entrepreneur, we do a lot of sports. I think, like, endurance training and, uh, and, uh, and entrepreneurship has a lot of things in common, uh, because, as you said, you know, it's like, it's a mind game, you know? Like, endurance, it's, uh, from the Latin, I think, like, endurare, which is, like, uh, harden, uh, a- and I think this is what happens, you know? It's like, uh, you, you get harder and harder as you train, uh, because you have all these battles with your mind telling you, you know, that, uh, you can't do more, that you should stop, that, uh, it's not, uh, worth continuing. And these discussions I have with my brain when I train for, uh, many hours are exactly the ones that I had back in the days when I had failed, like, uh, two businesses before Lemlist. I had, like, no money left. My girlfriend at the time was paying the rent. We were living in, like, 28 meters square. Uh, it was really, like, a, a shitty environment, and everyone was telling me, like, "Uh, why don't you take a real job? Like, (laughs) uh, why don't you..." And, and this conversation, you know, I had them with myself also, like, "Uh, why? I mean, I should stop. I should do something else. I shouldn't..." And then, you know, it's about, like, how do you find the strength and the discipline to just, uh, work on something step by step, look for your progress, and, uh, and, and just focus on that. Focus on the things you can control, you know? It's like, uh, stoicism is similar to this.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings58:47

       Are you still with that girlfriend?

    5. GMGuillaume Moubeche58:49

       No. (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings58:51

       She lo- she lost out. (laughs)

    7. GMGuillaume Moubeche58:54

       No, no, no. (laughs)

    8. HSHarry Stebbings58:54

       Um, what do you advise entrepreneurs who wanna be fit and healthy but say, "Hey, I don't have time to train"?

    9. GMGuillaume Moubeche59:00

       I would do a simple exercise. Uh, let's assume they all have iPhone. You open your phone settings and you go in Screen Time, and then you tell me whether or not you have time, you know? Like, it's, uh... Because everyone's, if you look at your phone, you're spending like, uh, two, three, four, sometimes five hours on your phone every day, and then people tell you that they don't have time. It's not about time, you know? It's about, uh, like, uh, the discipline. It's about, like, uh, self-love, because, you know, like, there is this definition of discipline that says it's, uh, the purest form of self-love. And I love it because it's basically like, uh, sacrificing a current state for the future self. And d- life, you know, is, is all about that, you know? It's all about, like, uh, what decision are you making right now that can help you build, like, a, a better lifestyle, uh, having, like, live longer, um, be more prosperous. And, uh, and all of these things, you know, like, uh, they take energy and they... It, it's a battle. We, we live in an era where it's so easy to get distracted, but it's also so easy to build an online business. And, and for me, the ones who train their muscles for discipline are the one who are gonna really, like, crush the game, because we're, we're definitely like... I don't like too much talking about, like, uh, weak and strong, (laughs) et cetera, but I definitely feel that there are so many weak minds out there, like, so many people who just, like, uh-

    10. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:28

        I think it's so easy to actually win today because most people are so weak.

    11. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:00:34

        Yeah, I agree.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:34

        And I know you're gonna hate that, but it's like, everyone wants to go and watch a Netflix movie, and it's like, I really wanna watch a Netflix movie too, dude, but instead I actually watch 20 minutes of a Netflix movie-

    13. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:00:43

        (laughs)

    14. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:43

        ... and then I go back to work for the other two hours-

    15. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:00:46

        Yeah.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:46

        ... because I know that I can do two hours more a day, and across seven days, that's like two full days of work.

    17. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:00:51

        Yeah, that's insane. But, uh, I agree. I, I think it's just like, uh... Sometimes, like, people, they, they love, you know, to have this, uh, very complacent version of you need to be chill, you need to be, like, to, to be caring, et cetera. And yes, it's good, but, you know, like, growth by definition

16. 1:01:09 – 1:04:34

    What’s Guillaume’s Toughest Discipline to Maintain?

    1. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:01:09

       is uncomfortable.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:10

       What do you have discipline around that is the hardest to have discipline around?

    3. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:01:15

       And I'm not sure if it's, if it's an issue or not because I train a lot, but I love sweets and I love dessert. I know, like, sugar is not something, like, uh, that I, I should eat as much, but I do eat, like, shit tons of sugar. Like, I love dessert. Like, I, I'm really, really bad at it. Like, if I don't eat a dessert after each meal, I'm sad. Like, I'm literally, like, sad. (laughs)

    4. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:34

       (laughs)

    5. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:01:34

       (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:36

       (laughs) You- you sound, you sound like a six-year-old. Uh, I love that.

    7. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:01:38

       (laughs)

    8. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:39

       That's so sweet. Uh, but on that, I heard from your team that you have the same meals every day.

    9. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:01:44

       Uh, yeah. (laughs)

    10. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:46

        I do too. What meals do you have?

    11. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:01:49

        (sniffs) Um, I kind of, like, change, uh, but overall it's, like, uh, at lunchtime I eat very often, like, uh, poke bowls. So it's like, uh, rice, uh, edamame, so, like, little beans, uh, then it's, like, uh, carrots, tomatoes, and then a protein. It can be, like, chicken or, like, salmon or anything. So this is basically, like, uh, what I eat daily, and I'm happy with it. And then I also eat, uh, a lot of pasta and meats. Like, pasta and meatballs, like, this is for me. I cook this myself, but I really love it. And it's easy, simple, um, it gets me all the calories, proteins, and, uh, and carbohydrates that I need for training. So it's... Yeah.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:34

        Can I ask you, are you married?

    13. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:02:35

        No, not married. No kids. Uh, none that I know of. (laughs)

    14. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:40

        (laughs)

    15. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:02:40

        At least.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:41

        Max, when you reflect on what you've given up for work, everyone always says, "Are you happy with the trade-off you've made?" I- I... How do you feel about that?

    17. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:02:50

        I am really happy in my life. Like, um, I feel like I have an intentional life. I feel like, um, I've been forced to ask myself questions about life that, uh, few people, uh, are forced to ask themself, because, uh, I think we still live in a world where, uh, money is kind of, like, uh, chains to freedom, because, uh, you have to work, you have to, uh, make money, you know, to, uh, I don't know, just live, simply. Uh, and, uh, and I broke these chains, you know, when I kind of, like, became, uh, financially independent, uh, and took, like, uh, a lot of cash. But at that time, you know, you ask yourself, like, um, "What's the meaning of life? What's, uh, your mission? Why are you put on Earth?" And you go more towards, like, spirituality, uh, and, uh, and it's, um, it's something, you know, that, uh, I struggled with. I was, you know, asking myself, like, um, "Why do I do what I do? Do I really love it? Am I in the right place?" Et cetera. And, uh, and I think, like, uh, when I reflected on, on everything, I feel like, uh, I'm, I'm so intentional about my life that I really love it, and I really love it. You know, it's like, uh, I work with a team I love. Uh, I'm always learning new things, which I think is super important. Um, I take care of my body and my health. I have, like, really good friends. Um, what's missing is, like, uh, the love of my life and a family (laughs) , but, uh, it's, uh, it's, uh, something I'm, I'm planning (laughs) for. But, uh, yeah. It's, uh... Otherwise, I'm happy. Yeah.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:28

        Well, now you're chairman, you have a little bit more time to do that, my friend. (laughs)

    19. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:04:31

        Yeah, exactly. (laughs)

    20. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:33

        Um,

17. 1:04:34 – 1:13:41

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:34

       listen, dude. I wanna move into a quick-fire round. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

    2. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:04:39

       Okay, let's do this.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:41

       Okay. So what do you believe that most around you disbelieve?

    4. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:04:44

       What do I believe that most around me disbelieve? I believe that traditional media are totally, like, uh, manipulating the way we think. A- and I think very few people, uh... Yeah, very few people realize it, uh, 'cause, um, you know, like, we, we were all raised, you know, with, uh, I think our parents, like, watching TV, and, uh, and these kind of things, and, uh, eventually we feel that this is the only truth. But down the line, I just feel like, uh... And, and especially, you know, in the, in the US, like, recently with the election and everything, I think, uh, we've realized, like, uh, a lot of things can be manipulated, and, uh, we should be careful with media.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings1:05:24

       You said Alex Hormozi earlier. Alex Hormozi says a great statement that I, I love, actually. He says, "The heaviest things in life are not iron or gold, but unmade decisions." If I were to ask you what unmade decision sticks in your mind most, what would you say it is?

    6. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:05:38

       ... very clear, and I've got, like, um, nightmares just thinking about it. But it's, uh, buying Bitcoin in 2008, 2009, to be honest. (laughs) Like, I should have done it. Like, (laughs) this is a decision I should have made.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings1:05:52

       But did you, did you look at it?

    8. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:05:53

       (laughs) To be honest, like, it's, it's something that, uh, I identified, like, very early. For some reason, I felt like, yeah, this is, this is definitely the future. I understood how, like, uh, money works, like, uh, how... what was money, like the essence of money, the essence of trust, uh, inflation, and all these kinda things. Everything made sense. But I didn't invest, 'cause I wasn't investing in anything and I didn't have money. But it's not an excuse. You know, even if I had bought, like, 100 bucks. (laughs)

    9. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:21

       Do you, do you have Bitcoin today?

    10. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:06:23

        Yes. A lot. (laughs)

    11. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:25

        (laughs) Well done. Uh-

    12. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:06:26

        Yeah. (laughs) I've been buying Bitcoins for the last, uh, three years, like, heavily, so now it's, uh, it's been a good year for me on, on that sense. (laughs)

    13. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:35

        (laughs) Uh, tell me, what would you do if you knew you couldn't fail?

    14. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:06:38

        This is something about, like, uh, school in general, you know? Because, like, um, I feel like schools, we never ask ourselves, like, why exactly, like, uh, schools have been built 'cause we believe, you know, like, uh, that in the, the Middle Age, people had the exact same school, et cetera. When you look at movies, this is how they represent it, you know? Like, uh, everyone's learning, you have teachers, et cetera. But it's totally untrue. Like, schools, uh, they were truly built, like, uh, in the 1900s, and for a reason that was simple. We needed to have, like, uh, little robots, uh, that were employees for a big corporation, and we need people, you know, to fit in a box. So if I knew I couldn't fail, I would build, like, a totally new, uh, education system that, uh, pushes people, uh, towards finding, like, uh, their true passion and what they're good at, and not just, uh, fit in a box, uh, where we want to, to take them, you know?

    15. HSHarry Stebbings1:07:28

        What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

    16. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:07:31

        Oh, yeah. This is a, this is a good one. I think, uh...Yeah, you, you need to train slowly to go fast. This is important, uh, because, uh, typically I've always been, like, uh, I've done sports my entire life. Uh, I've always been very competitive. I've done a lot of basketball, um, at, like, a good level, et cetera. But, um, when I started training for endurance, the trainings, you know, it's like, uh, you train and after that, like, uh, you, you need to build the, the foundation and the power of your heart. And to build the power of your heart, you know, you have different, uh, heart rate zone and you need to spend a lot of time in a, in a low heart rate zone which doesn't feel like you're actually exercising. So it's like you run basically, like, slowly. But for me, when I was doing this, I was like, "This is not training." You know? (laughs) Like, if I don't feel sore, if I don't go faster, like, it doesn't feel like training. But because you're doing so much volume, down the line, this build up a lot of strength and a lot of speed. And for me-

    17. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:31

        Are you-

    18. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:08:31

        ... this was, uh, yeah?

    19. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:32

        Are you masochistic? Like, I-

    20. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:08:35

        (laughs)

    21. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:35

        I enjoy... Now, I, you know, can't run anymore, sadly, 'cause I fucked up my knees 'cause David Goggins tells you, "When you feel pain, keep going." And-

    22. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:08:43

        Yeah. Don't, don't listen to that. (laughs)

    23. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:45

        Don't... But, like... And I enjoy the, like, bleed-at-your-desk style-

    24. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:08:49

        Mm-hmm.

    25. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:49

        ... mentality. Are you masochistic in a way?

    26. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:08:53

        Yeah. Of course. I have, like, a relationship with pain that is, uh, that is very, like, um, uncommon, I would say. But it's... Uh, some people, like, when they feel pain, uh, they believe, you know, that it's, uh, that it's a moment to stop. And for me, I feel like this is a moment, you know, uh, I'm growing. And there is this quote I like which is, uh, "Pain is weakness leaving the body." (laughs) And this is how I perceive it, you know? Every time it hurts I feel like, uh, yeah, I'm getting stronger. So it's positive in my mind.

    27. HSHarry Stebbings1:09:19

        I love that quote. Uh, what's your favorite consumer brand and why them?

    28. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:09:23

        Uh, I think I talked about it a bit earlier, but Apple, I think, uh, what they're doing is just, uh, is just insane. I love this graph where you see, like, uh, AirPods' revenue (laughs) versus any software company and you see that just the AirPods are making, like, uh, more revenue that any software, uh, (laughs) currently on the market. Like, it's just insane.

    29. HSHarry Stebbings1:09:42

        Absolutely insane. If you could be CEO of any other company for a day, what company would you be CEO of?

    30. GMGuillaume Moubeche1:09:48

        Like most people, I think I would say, like, OpenAI, just so I know, like, what they're cooking at the moment. Like, uh, where they're at in term of, like, new models, uh, knowing, like, uh... I would go there and I would say, "Okay, like, what's actual... What's the actual plan (laughs) that Sam told you?" Because this guy is, like, so... Like, I don't trust him, like, a second. He's been changing his mind, like, so many time. He's such a, like... You know, like he came to the Senate and started saying, like, uh, "I don't make money out of OpenAI. I've made enough money in the past. This is a nonprofit." And then, like, just after it's like, "Now it's for-profit. Actually, you were paid by Microsoft in the meantime when you were, like, CEO but through, like, another company structure. And now your entire team is gone (laughs) out of nowhere because they tried to fire you." So it's, like, there are some shits happening there and I wanna know, like, uh, (laughs) what's happening. I wanna know the truth.

Episode duration: 1:13:41