Larry Shurtz: How to Hire, Train & Retain the Best Vertical Teams | E1151

1. 0:00 – 0:48

   Intro

   1. LSLarry Shurtz0:00

      If you can't forecast accurately, either you don't truly understand your business, you aren't truly doing the amount of diligence with customers and opportunities. You don't have enough opportunities to be able to balance out some of the riskier things, or some of the things that look better. And we might not even be asking the right questions, and we're likely not talking to the right people.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:19

      Ready to go? Larry, listen, I've heard so many good things from the main man, Mr. Frank Feldman. So thank you so much for joining me today, first.

   3. LSLarry Shurtz0:39

      Harry, it's great to see you. Thank you. Um, this should be a ton of fun, so thanks for having me on.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:45

      Not at all. But listen, I wanna start with some context.

2. 0:48 – 3:12

   Entry Point into Sales

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:48

      Sales is often something that sales leaders love. I- I wanna dive into, when did you first discover your love of sales? Was there, uh, a critical inflection po- point?

   2. LSLarry Shurtz0:57

      Yeah. Well, so a little bit of background m- might give you some- some context. Um, when I graduated from high school, I went into college, I wanted to be an electrical engineer. Uh, more specifically, actually most specifically, I wanted to build robots, which is kinda crazy.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings1:14

      (laughs)

   4. LSLarry Shurtz1:15

      Um, and I went in, I took- took my first electro engineering courses. Uh, obviously heavy math, uh, some things that I had not really been prepared for, and realized that that was probably not the best spot for me. I quickly exited and got into marketing, and I- I did a lot of, even back then, a little bit of kinda just soul searching of, you know, what... It's a pretty dramatic miss (laughs) of what I wanted. I realize I actually didn't wanna, like, build the robots. I wanted to sell the robots. Like, I wanted to go on- on that journey of how cool robots could be for, um, for society and- and for people in general. So, you know, my- my love of sales really just came from my first job outta school. Um, I graduated with a, with a marketing and finance degree, and two companies came onto my campus. One was Eli Lilly, pharmaceutical company, um, and the other was E. J. Gallo, the- the wine company. So these are tough choices as- as a college graduate.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings2:14

      (laughs)

   6. LSLarry Shurtz2:15

      And I went, uh, I went Eli Lilly. I was at Eli Lilly for two years, um, and a really just an incredible company as far as just foundational sales methodology, and that's where I kinda got hooked, uh, was the- the early days in- in medical.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings2:32

      I mean, listen, I- I love that in terms of an origin story. Sadly, the robot career didn't happen.

   8. LSLarry Shurtz2:36

      (laughs)

   9. HSHarry Stebbings2:36

      I'm sorry for that, but I think it's turned out pretty well.

   10. LSLarry Shurtz2:39

       Absolutely.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings2:40

       Um, there's so many great companies though that you've f- like, bluntly been an instrumental part of. I wanted to start on actually the decade at Salesforce. I mean, when I looked at the numbers, you know, leading a 1,300 person team to 2.1 billion in revenue, I mean, these are insane numbers, Larry. What are one or two of your biggest takeaways from a decade at Salesforce in that trajectory?

   12. LSLarry Shurtz3:04

       There's some core things that anyone that's been there walks away with, and- and number one from a learning perspective is- is prioritization.

3. 3:12 – 5:55

   Sales Leaders' Prioritization Pitfalls

   1. LSLarry Shurtz3:12

   2. HSHarry Stebbings3:12

      What are the biggest things that sales leaders do wrong today when it comes to prioritization?

   3. LSLarry Shurtz3:17

      Uh, we try and do too much. At the end of the day, uh, w- we- we kinda want... I say we, uh, I'll stick myself in the sales leader bucket that- that you described. We really try and do it all. And- a- and not only... So I- I- I look at that from, one, from the personal leader perspective, the impact that has on the leader, and then the impact that has on your team. So I'll kind of unpack that. On- on the leader side, if you're personally trying to do too much, you know, this is where you- you really get into what I would think are- are... or what I know are mindset challenges. These end up in health challenges. Uh, you really get spread way too thin when you're trying to do too much. We- we can kinda talk about my perspective on how you solve that piece of the puzzle, but I think that's number one. Number two, the impact that actually has on your team is- is- is pretty detrimental, right? Because it all- it all ends up flowing down, right? So when you're, um, when you're... Like, it- it's a very diminishing trait when you try and do too much, in my opinion, because you flow it down and you keep adding things on. You never take anything off. Like, the list- the list just kinda keeps growing. And when the list grows, your teams aren't able to- to do it either, and the bag gets fuller and fuller and fuller and fuller, and it's- it's... For me, it's a little bit like a balloon eventually, when there's so much air in there, it breaks. Um, so I- I... You know, I think it's those two things.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings4:42

      How do we solve that? If I'm a sales leader today and you're advising me, which is kind of the role play that I'd love to have today...

   5. LSLarry Shurtz4:48

      This is a prioritization ex- this is hard, this hard work. There's no, like, "Hey, Harry, uh, like, one, two, three, you're good to go, like, you're all fixed," right? Problem solved.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings4:59

      Do you have a framework for, like, only focus on the top accounts, everything else doesn't matter? Um, only focus on spending time with your top reps, they're the ones who are gonna close the business?

   7. LSLarry Shurtz5:09

      My framework is I think about it from a leadership perspective. There's nothing more important than people. There's just not. Um, and you know, some people call it talent, people, whatever you wanna frame it in, your human capital is the most important thing. Um, and then in the job that- that I've chosen and that- that my teams have chosen, which is deliver the number, and I use this phrase all the time, like, there's no plan B. There's no, like, other team that if we don't get it done, somebody else is going to. (laughs) It just doesn't exist. So, um, for me, it's people, um, it's executing on the number, and this- this is ruthless prioritization because I could argue this third one should be first, it's customer success. And I think if you're nailing those three things-... you're probably

4. 5:55 – 9:13

   Art vs. Science in Sales

   1. LSLarry Shurtz5:55

      doing a pretty good job.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings5:56

      You know, we've, we've had frameworks before this question, and then we hear about kind of the blurring lines. And one thing that always strikes me really today in sales is, like, to what extent is it an art versus a science? And I spoke to your, your coach before the show, who said that you're one of very few people who can blend the two. So I'm just intrigued. If I push you, (laughs) is it more an art or a science, Larry, and how do you think about that?

   3. LSLarry Shurtz6:21

      I think it's interesting, art versus science. I, I've heard that before. I, I have historically, where I'm unwinding, I'm unwinding how I've historically thought about that, and then how I currently think about it. I have historically thought that it was probably 70% art and 30% science. And then I, I challenged myself on that, because then I think, "Okay, well, if it's art, then, like, can you learn art?" I guess, is art more a talent, um, and is science more skills? And, and how do you, how do you balance those? How do you, how do you recruit for those? How do you organizationally model for those? I, today, am probably, uh, in the 60/40, if you press me. I still think it's a lot of art. I still think it's a lot of talent. And when I say talent, I'm talking things that you and I h- like, the, that, it's hard wiring. That hard wiring was when we were, turned 13, man, like, it's in us. You can, uh, you can pivot, you can adjust, you can learn new things, but all the skills-based things that happen after that, I would put into the science bucket, right or wrong.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings7:32

      What do you think is the art of sales? Is that the EQ of reading customers? Because respectfully, to me, looking in from the outside, it's just more and more science based. And I put structure, frameworks, analytics, gong recordings, uh, outbound sales tools. Uh, to me, the only art left in sales is actually the EQ of reading, uh, people, relationships, the older school intangibles. What is the art left in sales?

   5. LSLarry Shurtz8:00

      I, I don't, uh, and I, I, so yeah, so I do share that opinion. Um, I, I do think the, and I would expand if I can. Uh, this is more than, like, reading, reading customers. I would expand this to just, like, leadership, right? The, in my opinion, the things you cannot, you cannot train EQ, really, really good, high-end EQ. I, I just, I, I firmly believe that that's in you, um, and I think that is the art. And I would tell you, as it relates to things like empathy, which is what we're all looking for from customer interaction with our, with our coworkers and bosses, um, I think it's really hard to train empathy. Trust me, I've tried, right? And, and when it's not something that is core to people, you're asking them to work out of their, what I think is their DNA cycling, and it's really, it's uncomfortable for them. It's not a great spot for them to be working. And so, I do think it's a lot of heart. Maybe I've just been doing it too long, Harry. I don't know. Um, but I, I think there is a beauty, a real beauty in people that do it well, and I think it separates the incredible from

5. 9:13 – 10:55

   Definition & Purpose of Sales Playbook

   1. LSLarry Shurtz9:13

      the great.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings9:13

      And the other one that I always find striking is, like, playbooks. Everyone says about sales playbooks. How do you define a sales playbook, first off? Let's just start there.

   3. LSLarry Shurtz9:23

      I always start playbooks with, uh, like, outcome, outcome first and work backwards, right? Um, because I, I think you can get play- super playbook happy, super playbook heavy. Everybody's got a playbook. Playbooks end up, uh, conflicting with each other. So I, I always try and work playbooks backwards, so, like, what, what is the outcome that we're looking for? And depending upon the playbook. And then I typically work it backwards into if that needs to be true, by when does that need to be true, um, what are the critical things that need to happen for that to be true, and who are the people that we're gonna ask to go do that? I, it's just, I'm a super fan of simplicity. I, I've seen some playbooks, 15-page playbook. I'm like, well, no, like, nobody's gonna cons- because that's the only s- thing that people are gonna be doing. Maybe that's a valuable exercise. But it's rarely the only thing people are gonna be doing. So I, I like to keep it simple. Um, outcomes first, work backwards, and, and then measurement. Measurement and cadence, right? How will we know if we're on target? How will we know if we're on track? Uh, if we're not, what pivots do we think we're gonna make? Kinda play the chessboard out a little bit. Um, I think that's critical in a playbook. But man, I'm, I'm just a fan of keeping it simple.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings10:42

      Uh, going back to the analogy of me being the new sales leader or CEO who needs your help, you scale sales teams like no one else has done. You mentioned about being an AE and an IC yourself. Help

6. 10:55 – 25:29

   Structure of Hiring Process

   1. HSHarry Stebbings10:55

      me understand. How do you structure a hiring process for a new sales team addition, for an AE today, for an SDR today? How should I do it?

   2. LSLarry Shurtz11:05

      So first, I, I think you gotta understand the role, right? What are you hiring for? Um, what are the specifics of that, of that role that matter the most? A lot of people put this in the, in the job description, but I also think a lot of companies aren't super clear about what they're looking for. And that's where I think, um, and I'll take you through how I think about the process. But I, I do, I have a high confidence score that when, when you aren't clear about what you want, what you specifically want, that's when you may end up missing and hiring the wrong person, and it has very little to do with whether that person was talented or not. It has to do with have you done a good job with the matching process?

   3. HSHarry Stebbings11:45

      Mm-hmm.

   4. LSLarry Shurtz11:45

      So I always like to start with what is the role, what is the role required? Um, and then I kinda work to, okay, well, like, where are we going to go source those candidates?Um, there's an incredibly, uh, incredible availability of diverse, wildly talented people for any number of roles at any level today. It's, it's, it's really pretty beautiful, (laughs) as a, as a hiring manager, um, the amount of, the amount of access that we have now. Um, I think you need a good recruiting team, and that recruiting team has to be armed, uh, with the value proposition of the company. So if I was gonna interview ... If I, if I was you and you're working for me at Genesis and you're hiring an AE, uh, I would wanna make sure that you're armed with your Genesis pitch. Like, what is your pitch about Genesis? Like, what's compelling about Genesis, Harry? Like, why would I come and work there if I was the AE, if I was the candidate? You gotta be armed with the value proposition. You have to be authentic and transparent. I like to keep interview teams small. This is a whole separate thing that I'm sure will rile some people up that may watch this, but I'm not a fan of panel interviews. Uh, I, I like doing interviews one on one. I strongly advocate that for my leaders, because the relationship between the people that you work with, for, and around really matters, and I think that's difficult to get out of a panel. That's my personal opinion. Um, but I, I think you wanna keep the ... I like to keep it five folks at the most, uh, interviewing people, and then I think you gotta move quickly. Again, the, the beauty of having this wide availability o- of diverse talent at all levels today is just that. The, the curse is dragging people through long processes. "Oh, I want you to do one more interview." Like, speed is kinda the game and I think when you can match speed with a defined process, you can get incredibly valuable people that wanna come build a career and, and do incredible things.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings13:48

      You know, if you have, uh, an amazing candidate on the second interview, which often happens-

   6. LSLarry Shurtz13:53

      Yeah.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings13:53

      ... and you're like, "I quite wanna hire them. Do I need to do 10 or can I just hire the second?"

   8. LSLarry Shurtz14:00

      Uh, okay. Can I ask some questions?

   9. HSHarry Stebbings14:01

      Yeah.

   10. LSLarry Shurtz14:03

       Uh, how long have we worked together, you and I?

   11. HSHarry Stebbings14:07

       In this process? Not long. Three months.

   12. LSLarry Shurtz14:10

       Okay. Uh, no. You're, you're gonna need more people to, to interview that person.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings14:18

       How many do I need?

   14. LSLarry Shurtz14:20

       Uh, well, listen, I, I think if you've got a really hot candidate, um, and, you know, we, we hear this a lot, meaning, uh, "We've got offers." Like, "I've, I'm, I'm a candidate. I've, I've got three offers. Uh, you know, I'm kinda coming to you guys. Y- y- you're early in your process, I'm late in three others. Kinda need to make a decision, that amount of pressure." We get that a lot.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings14:41

       But would you move on that? I, I don't like, like, hot candidates. To me, it's like hot deals. Bad decisions are made when you compress timelines and don't know people, in my mind.

   16. LSLarry Shurtz14:50

       I think this is where a lot of hiring mistakes are made, because you do not do enough diligence and the challenge is compounded globally, because in some markets, you hire the wrong people, that could be a year to an 18-month process to get a new person back in seat, right? And it's gonna cost you a lot of money. So if you're gonna spend more time, in my opinion, just maybe back to kind of the prioritization of time stuff, um, there's no more important thing than getting the right talent on board. It is a beautiful thing when you do, and it is really, really problematic when you don't. So I, I'd rather invest the time, get a little, couple of interviews. I don't like the hostage negotiation strategy of, "Hey, I got a bunch of offers. You know, you need to get me one in the next week." That's probably not the pr- it, like, especially if it's that language, that person doesn't match our value statement anyway, certainly not anyone I want working for me or for you, even though we just met.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings15:50

       Completely agree with you. Uh, before we get to that offer stage, w- you're interviewing me for a role in your team. What are the questions that you continuously go back to if you're adding me to your sales team? Are there a certain few which you always like to know and hear answers to?

   18. LSLarry Shurtz16:07

       Uh, I ... So I, I always get into track record, right? Um, and I, and I, and I do it a couple different ways. Uh, I want it a little by the numbers, like, tell m- tell me the story, right? Like, if I was gonna tell you the Salesforce story, which you told very quickly and probably better than I do, um, you know, I'd, like, I, I would lead with results. So I, I always want ... Because we're in a results-driven business. Um, we just are. A- and that's not just sales. It's customer success. It's everything. So I wanna hear the track record. Where I then go, uh, is I typically get into cultures. You know that I've worked at, you know, hyp- PTC, Hyperion, Oracle, Salesforce, Confluent, now Genesis. And if I was you and I, and I was interviewing, I'd be like, "What culture did you really prefer and why?" Right? Um, I've had ... You'd be shocked-

   19. HSHarry Stebbings17:01

       (laughs)

   20. LSLarry Shurtz17:02

       ... (laughs) the range of answers that I've gotten to the culture question. Uh-

   21. HSHarry Stebbings17:05

       What range of a- what range of answers have you had, Larry?

   22. LSLarry Shurtz17:08

       Yeah. Uh, "I've had Fridays off, uh, for three months. Um, there was always food in the office." Eh, I mean, I'm being a little facetious, but very, uh ... And by the way, th- this isn't a generational thing. I convert this from different generations. Um, I've heard very culture-related answers that had to do with amenities, if you will, of the company. I've heard culture-related answers that, if I took that to the other end of the spectrum, um, of, "You know what? That was one of the hardest places that I've had to work. It was the most disciplined structures that I had to work. Um, I didn't like, you know, quite a few of the conversations, but I grew and it was amazing." I mean, I've had it. I've had the range. I've had the, the whole gamut. I, eh, so you'll hear stories about bosses. You'll hear stories about philanthropy. But I really, for me, the reason I'm asking the question, I, like, I wanna get to the core of...... because values matter to me. It, they matter every place that I've worked, and I think value alignment is an important thing. I really think it is, for people to be successful. So I'm kinda getting a little bit of value statement out of the culture piece. And then the last thing that I typically get to is what drives people. Why are you still working?

   23. HSHarry Stebbings18:28

       Is that bad if it's money? If I say, "Listen, dude, honestly, I'm here to make money. I'm a comp machine and I wanna make revenue for the company and comp for me."

   24. LSLarry Shurtz18:36

       Yeah. Why?

   25. HSHarry Stebbings18:38

       Ah, it really matters to be able to give my family a great life. Uh, I want to get a bigger house. Um, you know, obviously want to send my kids to great schools and want to have a great life with my wife.

   26. LSLarry Shurtz18:49

       What I just got from you was, it's actually not about money. Like, it's, it's money so that you can deliver outcomes for your wife and your family and-

   27. HSHarry Stebbings18:59

       Mm-hmm.

   28. LSLarry Shurtz18:59

       ... and getting a bigger house that probably is for your family. But I, So I, I will always double-click on things, uh, to the point where people get super annoyed. It's maybe a terrible, it's a terrible habit, but I ask "Why?" a lot, 'cause I think the, the nuance is in the "why" for people.

   29. HSHarry Stebbings19:16

       I totally agree. It's the, the Toyota's five whys. It, okay, one aspect that a lot of people do is the case studies. They love a case study. Do you do case studies with me? Are we gonna have to do that as part of the process?

   30. LSLarry Shurtz19:27

       I don't. Uh, I, I have folks on my team that do and, and like that. I think it could be... I, I mean, this is where I go to like, uh, you know, being open to different parts of processes. Uh, uh, there is a lot of value sometimes out of the case study, but for me the case study gets to, what is your mindset and your thought process? It, it gets to the what and the how. And I don't know, like, I, I feel like I can get that out of talking to you for 45 minutes, and, and I'm gonna get context, right? So I, I know the, the folks on my team that do case studies do a case study and then a presentation about the case study. You can get goodness from, believe it or not, there's people that have been in our game for a long time that are uncomfortable in front of audiences or in front of panels. So I, I think you, there is some goodness there. I, I, I would never say, "Hey, don't do a case study, it's terrible," if that's somebody that, if that's somebody that that's a part of their process and it works. Like, if that works for you, and you've got a track record of having unbelievable people work for you that would work for you regardless of where you went to go work, then man, like, case study the heck out of it. (laughs) Like, go baby go.
7. 25:29 – 35:33

   Lessons in Scaling Sales Teams

   1. HSHarry Stebbings25:29

      Thank you. I would like to accept your offer, Larry. I'm excited to join.

   2. LSLarry Shurtz25:33

      Great.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings25:33

      No one, no one does onboarding well. It universally sucks. What have been your biggest lessons in scaling sales teams on how to do onboarding well?

   4. LSLarry Shurtz25:43

      It, it, it's gotten harder too, right? I mean, uh, insert COVID and the pandemic, uh, when, when everybody shut down what we all considered normal onboarding. Uh, it, it's gotten harder, and I will argue we'll never rotate all the way back to the way it was. And I'm talking a little bit about, like, in-person versus digital or, or remote. My first training, as I mentioned to you and Lily, I, I was exported... I'm an Arizona guy. I was exported to Indianapolis in the winter for six weeks. I didn't even have a coat. Like, why would I need a coat in, in Arizona? Um, and that was the way you trained. And you did role-based training, and there was curriculums and structure and everything else. I think that has shifted certainly from the remote aspect and the in-person aspect. That has completely shifted today. I think the initial indoctrination or immersion, if that's a, if that's a safe word (laughs) to use, needs to be in-person. I don't think there's a better way to communicate, uh, the culture of the company, to interface with important objectives, to talk and meet with executives. We, we try and flood those sessions with some of the senior leadership team. Um, I think that's critical. And then-

   5. HSHarry Stebbings26:58

      I-

   6. LSLarry Shurtz26:58

      And then you gotta go to work. Um, and, you know, so along that journey you're getting bite-sized pieces of the prioritized, "What do you need to know in order to be successful?" Starts with basic, basic things. Um, and then you're on your enablement journey that lasts a year.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings27:17

      We now know that it's in-person, totally agree. Um, do we spend any time in support? People a lot of times say support's an amazing place to start. When do we get in front of customers first? Do we listen to prior sales calls? Do we tag along with sales leaders? How do we think about ramping in that first 30 to 60 days?

   8. LSLarry Shurtz27:34

      I haven't heard that. That's an interesting, uh, it's an interesting thought. I think you can get real perspective there. I'm gonna, like, consider that stolen.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings27:43

      Ho- honestly, it is, it is the most effective thing that I urge all founders with sales teams do.

   10. LSLarry Shurtz27:48

       Yeah.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings27:48

       You hear the pains of customers. You hear ab-

   12. LSLarry Shurtz27:51

       Yeah.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings27:51

       ...empathy. Um, you, so you speak about training empathy. It's probably the closest way to train empathy just to listen to the customer support calls.

   14. LSLarry Shurtz27:57

       And ironically, it's kind of how our company was, was born was in that kind of voice, uh, support thing. So, um, that's a great tip. So thank you.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings28:06

       (laughs)

   16. LSLarry Shurtz28:06

       Um, I, you know, here's... We like to pair up in teams. So w- we do like, we do like the buddy system. Uh, we like the mentorship system. Um, I, you know, your question on customers, like day one, you only get, you only get, like... How many chances do you get to be, uh, to be new? You, you don't, you don't get many.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings28:30

       Do you know why that you put them in front of a big customer and they're like, "Uh, I don't really know the sales cycle here. I don't know the next step on the contract. I'm not really sure how we close deals." You can't just put them in front of big customers on day one.

   18. LSLarry Shurtz28:44

       How beautiful is that?

   19. HSHarry Stebbings28:46

       Not beautiful at all if I'm paying $500,000 to your company and you put a rep in front of me who doesn't know the process. I'm worried.

   20. LSLarry Shurtz28:53

       Well, I wouldn't, uh, I wouldn't send you alone as a new AE. I would send you with either your boss or someone else, and I would actually, for me, like, the, the problem is the gift. Something has happened with a... You're talking about a good-sized customer if it's, if 500 grand is the metric. You clearly should know a lot when you (laughs) walk into that customer so you aren't blind to what's going on. Um, so you, you gotta do some homework. But I have always... I, like, I've been at Genesys for a year. I still sometimes will be with customers, like, "I, I'm still learning." Like, "I'm still new." Like, "Help me understand." I think it's a, I, I think it is a beautiful learning experience. Now, what's valuable for the customer in that, you gotta bring something to the table. If you're in that meeting and you aren't accurately representing the story of, uh, Genesys, and if you don't know about our company, it's kind of a red flag. So... And then, by the way, the, just the customer interaction pieces, you know, I, I mean, you can, you can kind of draw conclusions on how people interact with... uh, in those situations. So, how soon do I know that they're bad? I would say it, it's the combination of several red flags. And then, and then I think you gotta really, you gotta really double-click, and this goes back to our hiring conversation-... right? Uh, normally, and I've made a lot of hiring mistakes, normally, normally, there is something that ends up showing up, that when I was in the interview process, assuming I was perfectly diligent, which I never am, it's impossible to be perfectly diligent, there is always something. It's like, you know, like, "My gut was a little bit off." Like, my gut, I, I hear that a lot with people and I, I, my, my advocacy is trust your gut. Normally, those things will show up later and, and without fault, the hiring mistakes that I have made end up showing up in our example right now, that were things that I didn't feel 100% comfortable with. And for whatever reason, at that time, I gave a pass on, or I didn't do enough homework on, or I didn't poke on enough. And I think you gotta, you gotta be able to unpack it, you gotta be able to embrace that mistake, and you gotta make sure that you're doing everything you can to not do it again. So bad, bad is the sum of a lot of red flags and a lack of improvement with coaching.

   21. HSHarry Stebbings31:20

       Do you think that's the first 30 days?

   22. LSLarry Shurtz31:22

       Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.

   23. HSHarry Stebbings31:23

       Okay. So, so first 30 days, and you just said there about the gut, and I'm totally with you. (laughs) Max Levchin from Affirm said on the show, "When there's doubt, there's no doubt." Do you agree? And should you just move really fast in those first 30 days and say, "Larry, just, I wanna get ahead of this. Clearly not working, sorry." Or do you go, "Ah, it takes time. It's a complex sale. It's an enterprise sales cycle. They're young. You know, give them a bit of time"?

   24. LSLarry Shurtz31:50

       Nature of the flag, maybe. Like, what is the fla- what's the foul? And, and I think you really gotta unpack it. This goes back to hiring mistakes cost a lot of money and a lot of time. So, um, I think you need to have pretty candid conversations with people, um, and that this is like, and that this goes into the whole post-call recap, and, um, and feedback, and coaching. If you aren't, if you aren't doing that coaching, I think you're gonna be in a different bucket. But let's assume you go in, we have a terrible sales call. I'm like, "Oh, my God, Harry, like, that was a mess." Which I would never say, but I would normally start off with, "Harry, how do you think that went?" Now, if, if it was terrible and you thought it went great, th- then I'd throw another flag. Like, I'd really be curious what you thought was great. So I think you really need to unpack that. And then I think if coaching, so it depends on the nature of the flag. If it's a coaching item and a skills-related item and it's not improving, like, I feel as an employer, you have a responsibility to employees. You really do. It's hard to onboard. You mentioned it. It's, it's hard to onboard. You're learning, you're learning tools, you're learning culture, you're learning customers. Sometimes you're learning the industry. Some, A., a lot of times you're learning motion, and I would break it into mental errors and physical errors. I played sports growing up, so my coach has always said, like, "You can make all the physical errors. You cannot make mental errors." It's just not-

   25. HSHarry Stebbings33:14

       What's the difference in sales?

   26. LSLarry Shurtz33:15

       Not a lot. I mean, I, I, I, I... This goes back to I, I, I think there are things that there are flags that would be real issues, if, a- and this goes to interpersonal skills, to me. Um, that is something you should be sniffing out of any interview process. Preparation and diligence, um, those are things that are, they're kind of non-negotiables for the job that we've chosen to do. So I think you need to be candid with your communication. We have a responsibility as leaders to communicate and coach. If that coaching is not working, then I think you need to move quickly. You kinda know. You're just del- you're just delaying an outcome that you have already pretty much decided on. Um, and by the way-

   27. HSHarry Stebbings33:57

       Do you ever-

   28. LSLarry Shurtz33:57

       ... by the time the leader knows it... Here's what also happens. By the time the leader knows it, everyone else on the team knows it. They know it before you do.

   29. HSHarry Stebbings34:05

       Do you ever keep someone you don't like? I'm an ambassador too for my sins, you know. Um, you know, uh, met a founder yesterday, uh, enterprise SaaS business, and I was talking about one of their salespeople and he said, "Pfft, total dick." But I mean, he brought in $2.5 million in revenue last year, so, you know, I can put up with it.

   30. LSLarry Shurtz34:24

       Do I ever hire people that I don't like, where I'm like, "Oh, my God." Like, "I just don't like that person. They're offensive, they're abrasive"? No, I just don't even hire them. Because if, if they're that way to me, they're going to be that way with our customers.
8. 35:33 – 39:02

   Quality vs. Quantity in Sales

   1. LSLarry Shurtz35:33

   2. HSHarry Stebbings35:33

      I think it's all about building confidence in the early days with sales teams-

   3. LSLarry Shurtz35:36

      Yeah.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings35:36

      ... with salespeople. Do you think that you should go for the logos? Or do you think that you should go for just quantity? Like, just get as many clients or, like, go for that stellar logo?

   5. LSLarry Shurtz35:48

      Depends on where you are as a business. If, if-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings35:50

      Your early stage, your zero to $10 million and era.

   7. LSLarry Shurtz35:53

      Then I think you, you gotta go get category killer brands.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings35:58

      Mm.

   9. LSLarry Shurtz35:58

      And you have to do the entire market-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings36:00

       Why, why, why... Sorry to interrupt. Why, in the early stage, you went for category killer brands?

   11. LSLarry Shurtz36:05

       Uh, references. If you can do it, in my opinion, if, if you can be successful with the category killers, and they didn't become category killers 'cause they're easy to work with. They didn't become category killers, uh, because they lack complexity. They didn't become category killers because they aren't good at what they do.And if you can do it with the best, and I have a huge caveat after I finish this sentence, if you can do it with the best, it's a heck of a place to start. The caveat is closing the deal is like the... (laughs) s- it's like the easy part. They have to be successful. Like, for them to be referenceable, they have to be success- nobody's gonna go on record... You know, Coca-Cola's not gonna go on record and say, "We just closed an amazing deal with Harry, um, and we have no idea whether it's gonna be successful." That's not gonna happen. They're probably gonna be a reference once they're successful. So for me, the entire orientation of an organization in the early, early stages, I'm talking like sub-100 now, I think needs to be figure out the industries and the verticals you could be successful in, go get brand names, category killers, and rotate hard on customer success. 'Cause if you can't get customer success, well, you're dead in the water anyway.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings37:23

       Okay, so I had Chris Deignan on the show, the CR at Snowflake.

   13. LSLarry Shurtz37:26

       Yeah.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings37:26

       Uh, he was amazing, and he was like, "Uh, why do we still have CS?"

   15. LSLarry Shurtz37:31

       Yep.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings37:31

       "Wha- we should have professional services, and then there's, like, support, but, like, CS? Uh-uh, not a fan."

   17. LSLarry Shurtz37:40

       I- I- I- I heard Slootman say the same thing, and you should really go, like, unpack the titles versus the roles, because that (laughs) matters, right? So when you... A- and by the way, they are in a pure consumption model business, which, which is very different, um, than a booking, so it's a bookings versus revenue kind of business, or hybrid businesses. Snowflake's success is 100% built on customers being successful and usage. Now, if you're hiring a bunch of salespeople, and then you're gonna ask your salespeople, "Hey, I just want you to go make sure they're successful," they're gonna be like, "Hold on," like, and I'm in Snowflake land, "Uh, I- I need to find more use cases. I need to find more applications to move onto Snowflake's platform." That's selling. And then, so, like who is actually managing the technical architecture, the foundations of that customer being successful? You kinda need to go unpack titles versus roles, I think, in some of the companies that say, "We don't need customer success." Someone is playing that role. You can call them whatever you want. Uh, you can call them... You can put them in finance, for all I care. But someone (laughs) is responsible for the correct architecture aligned to the right use case, and then someone is responsible for growing and expanding that business.

9. 39:02 – 51:32

   Interplay between CS & Sales

   1. LSLarry Shurtz39:02

   2. HSHarry Stebbings39:02

      How do you think about the interplay between CS and sales? I had Dave Kellogg on the show.

   3. LSLarry Shurtz39:07

      Yeah.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings39:07

      And he said, "You never want your farmer going against someone else's hunter."

   5. LSLarry Shurtz39:11

      For me, that's just segmentation strategy. That's the difference between how am I going up against competition based on the accounts that are in their patch, and do we carve out hunter-farmer patches? Um, and we could argu- you know, this could be a whole other five-hour (laughs) podcast for you and I. But that's a segmentation question. Um, if I'm, if I, if we have... Let's say we did that. Let's say we had AE's reps, individual contributors that just had customers, okay? So, of varying sizes, right? But they're just customers. There's no, uh, there's no new customers or new logos in their patch and their job is, quote-unquote, "farming," right? Um, I actually kinda don't, uh, I don't think that farming is a thing in, in the cloud world. I- it's just not. I mean, you're responsible for finding new use cases across the entire bag that you have to sell, so you're always hunting and farming, and you have to, again, my opinion, you have to have just, like, a interlock, stacked hands between CS and sales. And here's what I would tell you. Here's what I'd tell you. I'll take my team that's organized that way up against anyone else's.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings40:30

      Chris Deignan's?

   7. LSLarry Shurtz40:31

      Yeah, I don't know Chris, but yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings40:33

      That would be a fun show. (laughs)

   9. LSLarry Shurtz40:36

      Hit him up.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings40:37

       Uh, no, I, uh, I- I love that, and, um, I- I love the pairing throughout the entire sales process. I always find it quite transactional when you have the handoff, and I think customers hate it, bluntly. Um...

   11. LSLarry Shurtz40:48

       Good.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings40:48

       So, all right, one thing I wanted to discuss, you mentioned, like, use cases there. I'm such a fan of vertical sales playbooks. You've been a master of vertical sales playbooks. I think it's so important to mean something to a specific set of customers. Your messaging is tighter. Everything is better in a vertical sales world, in my mind, really. Um, but so many founders are like, "It's too expensive. It's too expensive to build that. I'm too early and it's too expensive." How do you answer that question?

   13. LSLarry Shurtz41:14

       If I rewound to when we started doing this at Salesforce, it was really borne out of, out of customer requirements. You know, we, we got feedback, uh, and a particular mark got feedback, um, that we weren't showing up, uh, understanding the customer. And it, and it really, you said it, right? There's very few things worse than that. We were just very focused on enablement, enablement and organizational alignment, um, and there's depths that you can go when you think about verticals. Some companies start with industry, and so building out industry teams that can come in and have that conversation, but your AEs are still aligned... You know, you may have an AE that calls in healthcare in the morning, financial services in the afternoon, and is going to dinner, you know, with a three-letter agency at night. Um, so- but they have the content. Content's created for them. They can, they can kinda get a couple steps down the road.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings42:12

       Do you think that's really is effective as someone who just lives and breathes aviation, or-

   15. LSLarry Shurtz42:17

       Yes.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings42:18

       ... hospitality?

   17. LSLarry Shurtz42:19

       Yes.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings42:19

       Where they are j- you do?

   19. LSLarry Shurtz42:20

       And it's expensive.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings42:22

       So I'm, I'm learning here, so I'm naively asking-

   21. LSLarry Shurtz42:24

       Yeah.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings42:24

       ... these questions. Does it need to be, though? You hire a junior rep, and you say, "Hey, you're in charge of hospitality, which entails large hotel chains around the world. Become a fricking nerd on it and go sell."

   23. LSLarry Shurtz42:37

       Right.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings42:37

       Like, why, why does it have to be expensive in that way?

   25. LSLarry Shurtz42:40

       Well, when the... So it's a great question. When, when that AE goes to their SE or SC, the technical person on their team, and says, "Hey, I need to, I need to come in and show an airplane demo," and I'm sticking with the metaphor, and, and that, that SE's like, "Well, kinda don't... Like, we've got a really generic one. Like, what do you want?" Then there's a disconnect at the technical teams. Then you're bringing in an AE that is super smart, super knowledgeable, and the SC isn't, so clearly a disconnect. And then, by the way, from our earlier conversation, you're gonna bring in a customer support person, uh, probably professional services, and you're gonna bring him in early in the sales campaign and the customer's gonna go, "So tell me, like, how many aviation implementations have you done? Tell me what you know about the industry." And that person's gonna be light. So my point is, dragging you on that story, my point is-

   26. HSHarry Stebbings43:36

       Hmm.

   27. LSLarry Shurtz43:37

       ... um, to truly verticalize and to truly deliver value for customers, it can't just be the AE. It has to be ev- This was a journey we went on. It has to be every single person that touches the account. And then you end up in these sub-verticals. So, like, is financial ser- Financial services is a lot of things. How do you think about... Well we, like, retail banking's our biggest opportunity. We need to, like, double down on retail banking enablement and training and immersion. So the reason I think that it gets expensive, and again, you can, like, be on this journey where you don't have to eat all those costs up front and you can try things and, and fail, fail quickly. If you're truly gonna deliver the benefit, what I think is the benefit of a, a verticalized sales team, it's every person that touches the customer.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings44:25

       But, like, can we do one at a time? Do we need to do three at a time?

   29. LSLarry Shurtz44:29

       Yes and no. Uh, I mean (laughs) , th- this is another cost implication, this is another, like, prioritization implication, this is, like, how much risk do you want to take on. Uh, we started with financial services at Salesforce. It was the first, and it became so successful they actually developed a product for financial services. That became more impetus, and now the industry products team at Salesforce is just crushing it, because they've actually went at it and, and built products specific to the industry. So I, my a- If I was advising you and you're thinking of building out a, a, a vertical, uh, I would pick where you think the biggest bang for your dollar is, and I'd try... I wouldn't go do three.

   30. HSHarry Stebbings45:08

       But to what extent is one customer enough to bet on a vertical? And what I mean by that is, I quite often meet founders and they're like, "Well, we got, um, I don't know, Chase, and so, you know, we feel that actually the social validity of getting Chase means we'll be able to get X, Y and Z bank also." Do you really see it like, oh, well you got one so you can get another and another? Do the dominoes fall when you have a big name or not?
10. 51:32 – 59:10

    Why Larry is Good at Sales Forecasting

    1. LSLarry Shurtz51:32

       that way.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings51:32

       Do you think you're good at sales forecasting?

    3. LSLarry Shurtz51:34

       Yes.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings51:35

       Why? Like, how- how are you so good at sales forecast- um, like, teach me.

    5. LSLarry Shurtz51:38

       Ultimately, you have to balance risk with commitment. Pipeline is everything, so the more- the more at-bats you have, the more likely you're gonna get a hit. It's the same thing in sales. Um, and forecasting, forecasting accurately is, in the job that we do, a critical part of your brand. I- if you can't forecast accurately, uh, for me, it's one of a couple things. Either you don't truly understand your business, you aren't truly doing the amount of diligence with customers and opportunities, you don't have enough opportunities to be able to balance out some of the riskier things with some of the things that look better, um, and we might not even be asking the right questions and we're likely not talking to the right people. So, let me say all of that and... it's really hard to do well. I- I have missed- I've missed months, I've missed quarters, I've missed quarters back to back. Um, it's a hard, hard thing to do, uh, but there is a real premium in the world that- that I've chosen to plan on forecasting accurately. In particular, uh, when I- I kinda own the number, uh, myself and- and, um, my peer on the CS side own the number for the company, that how we think about investment and strategic priorities kinda depends on us doing what we say we're gonna do. My roll-up is based upon my directs doing what they say they're gonna do that's dependent upon their directs doing what they say they're gonna do, which is dependent upon their directs and dependent on all the AEs. So, this becomes a Jenga board sometimes (laughs) , right? Uh, and managing that with, uh, agility and accuracy is very, very difficult, and I think it's incredibly important.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings53:31

       Everyone says today is so hard in sales, so hard in sales, all budgets have centralized back to CFOs, people aren't spending like they used to, you know, Larry, they're not. They're like, "Yeah, that's true." You're like, "Nah, that's bullshit."

    7. LSLarry Shurtz53:43

       There isn't a company out there today that doesn't have TAM data that, uh, maybe there are, but like, in the companies that are really playing the game today, that are winning, they know the TAM data, they ha- there's so much information about accounts, there's so much information on PTB, or like, propensity to buy, so many, uh, like, that information is kind of the table stakes. When AEs start, they're kinda like given all of this inform- like, "Here's your territory. Here's the opportunity inside of your territory." You could be in an industry that gets hurt macroeconomically. A perfect example. Uh, the travel and transportation industry during COVID? Tough spot. (laughs) That's a tough, that's a tough putt, right? So, (laughs) you have to be- you need to have a little humility with- with the narrative and a l- and- and a heavy dose of empathy that, listen, some of these are hard. If you- if you give an AE patches of customers that are upset and you're working through a bunch of issues, I think you need to have- you need to have some empathy with that situation to understand that. But, I would be really- I would really push back on a leader and A- or an AE.... that barring force majeure or some macroeconomic pandemic, or a financial crisis if you're selling to the banks, I would really push back a- any time today of someone saying, "You know what? People just aren't spending the way they used to, so I'm not able to sell anything." I- I think that, that's a mindset thing too, by the way.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings55:15

       Have you ever had bad culture in one of your sales teams? Um, why did that happen? What did you do wrong?

    9. LSLarry Shurtz55:21

       The biggest lesson that I would say that I learned early in my career was, I- I didn't even use the word then, the- the word to me long time ago was like a soft word, was empathy. Like, I completely lacked empathy. They- it would be the- be the narrative of an- an AE in the financial crisis who only called on B of A and Chase, came to you and said, "Hey," like, "it's really tough sledding and these opportunities are gonna push for a quarter," and if you just said, "I don't care, go figure it out." Like, there was a point in my career where that was- that was okay. There was a point in my, uh, in my learning as a leader where that was how I responded. I- and it was uneducated, um, it was, uh, very difficult to maintain loyalty, and I think you learn- you learn some very expensive lessons that normally show up through attrition. When quality people start leaving, this goes back to our first conversation, when quality people start leaving, is comp- is comp an issue? Sure, yeah. I mean, comp- comp is likely always an issue. I don't think comp is always the issue, and I'm prioritizing the issues, and it comes down to your leader. And I- I early in my career was not a great, um... Not that I'm great now, I'm on the journey just like the rest of us that are in this- in this role, um, but I- I kinda, I was pretty poor.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings56:44

        Were there one or two moments where you really felt you improved as a leader? Like, the floor fell from beneath you and you improved in that way?

    11. LSLarry Shurtz56:50

        I've tried to work, uh, work my DNA to respond to things a little more masterfully than- than I used to. Uh, but generally when things would come to me as a problem, um, and we can go on this tangent if you want but that's just my poor interpretation of what was or what is, I would respond with, you know, eh, oop, finger-pointing, "Somebody's doing something wrong," um, you know, it was very little- very little accountability for myself in that equation, um, and it was really how I responded to things. I- I learned a lot. I- I talked about, um, kind of my career journey. Godfrey Sullivan was the CEO at Hyperion and I learned a ton from Godfrey, uh, the- the empathy score with Godfrey and customers, I learned a lot from. I'll never forget, it was a meeting, I'll- I'll leave the account name out of the picture but it was a, we were not doing well with this account, super senior level, C-suite meeting, um, the way he handled that situation? Remarkable.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings58:00

        What did- what- what did he do to handle that?

    13. LSLarry Shurtz58:02

        Just listened. Listened. Uh, empathy. I know I'm using that word a lot but, eh, uh, he listened. He was prepared. Um, he showed incredible empathy. He knew the details of what was going on and he had a plan, and it was just... It, you know, and there's so much like non, th- you can tell when someone's genuinely listening or when someone is sitting there with a prepared answer hoping that you ask the right question. He just had, oh, a remarkable skill. Um, that was a, that was a great example for me, um, as a leader. I, you know, I had, I was blessed to have the same boss for a period of time, uh, when I came into Oracle all the way into Salesforce, um, who had a remarkable ability to hear things that weren't going the way the teams anticipated and you'd leave that meeting and you're like, "We got this. No problem." But again, it, I mean, it just really comes with listening and empathy. Um, those were my, those are probably my two biggest career journeys, I think. Per- personally. Personally and professionally.

11. 59:10 – 1:02:58

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. LSLarry Shurtz59:10

    2. HSHarry Stebbings59:10

       Larry, I could talk to you all day. I am cognizant that you do also have a job. Uh, (laughs) as a venture investor we do little, so it was, you know, fine for me to spend hours chatting shit. It's what we do all day. Um, uh, listen, I wanna do a quick-fire. So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

    3. LSLarry Shurtz59:27

       Yeah. Careful what you ask for, but yeah, I guess.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings59:29

       Okay. What would you most like to change about the world of sales?

    5. LSLarry Shurtz59:32

       I would say value creation. Just that, um, I know you want quick answers but, um, the abilit- the ability, pretty universally, for teams to be able to convey value to customers. I- I think that, that pretty dramatically changes things. I think that changes the optics of selling completely. It's like it's not a sales game.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings59:49

       Tell me, is outbound dead in 2024?

    7. LSLarry Shurtz59:52

       Not at all. I- I... Outbound done well, what a, what an instrument. What an incredible instrument.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings59:59

       Do you not worry that with AI, the outbound supply will be infinite in the way that everyone will be able to create so many personalized emails, messages, banner-

    9. LSLarry Shurtz1:00:11

       Uh...

    10. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:12

        ... whatever that is?

    11. LSLarry Shurtz1:00:13

        There's gonna be automation, uh, gains from AI, so efficiency gains that were largely, by the way, things people didn't wanna do anyway, they hated doing anyway. And then there's gonna be augmentation benefits from AI. So, uh, helping people do their jobs better. And my take, the way I see this going, that's gonna be like 30/70. I think 70% of the benefit of AI is gonna be for people to do their jobs better. So no, I don't think outbound is better, I think... Or I don't think outbound is gone, I think AI will help enable, uh, the right outbound teams to do it better.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:46

        What sales strategy do you think is dead that was prominent and now it's like, "Nah, we don't do that anymore"?

    13. LSLarry Shurtz1:00:53

        Uh, you know, FAB selling is pretty dead. FAB. Do you remember this one?

    14. HSHarry Stebbings1:00:56

        Mm-hmm.

    15. LSLarry Shurtz1:00:57

        Feature, advantage, benefit. This was a big deal. This was actually how I learned, and this was, when I studied at Eli Lilly, that was the training. So you were- you were trained feature, advantage, benefit. So I- I think that one is dead and gone. It goes back to, you know, there are so many value-selling frameworks now. Uh, I grew up at, in my tech job at PTC which was MEDDIC at the time, or MEDDPICC, so there's...There's an unlimited choice of them, but I think, I'm pretty sure fab selling, nobody's writing a book on fab selling these days.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:29

        What are the most common ways that fast-scaling sales teams break?

    17. LSLarry Shurtz1:01:34

        Prioritization, uh, for me is the most common and, uh, then I would think, eh, generally speaking it's waiting. You know, even though you're fast, even though you're fast scaling, uh, what are the things that you're waiting for something to be different on before you go and try that could create a different outcome? I think waiting is a, is just a really dangerous way to go.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:58

        I'm a founder considering a vertical sales playbook approach. What's your number one piece of advice for me?

    19. LSLarry Shurtz1:02:04

        Focus. Pick your spot on where, where you're gonna go do the vertical. On the playbook, work outcomes backward.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:11

        Final one: what recent company sales strategy have you been most impressed by?

    21. LSLarry Shurtz1:02:16

        None. I'm not a sales stra- ironically, given the, the job that I have, I'm not a sales strategy, like, entrepreneur or, uh, wizard, so, uh, I probably don't see as many or enough. I, I think that, you know, in the cloud world, you have to be in a land and expand and retain sales strategy, and that's not just sales, that's customer life cycle. If you're not in that business, I think you're gonna lose.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:46

        Listen, Larry, I, I can clearly speak to you all day. I can't thank you enough for doing this, and this has been so much fun.

    23. LSLarry Shurtz1:02:53

        Man, it's been a blast. It's great to, uh, great to meet you. Thank you for everything you're doing.

Episode duration: 1:02:58