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Maria Angelidou:Product Lessons Leading Facebook App Monetisation Team to Billions in Revenue |E1210

Maria Angelidou is a seasoned product leader, having spent close to a decade at Meta where she was VP of Product and General Manager for some of the largest products such as Facebook Groups (2B+ users), Events, Profile, and Search. Before that, Maria led the Facebook App Monetization team, driving billions of dollars in revenue. Today, Maria is the Chief Product & Technology Officer at Personio, an HR tech company with an ambitious mission to unlock the power of people for SMEs. ----------------------------------------------- Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (00:44) Joining Facebook (03:14) Transition From IC to Manager (09:34) How To Prevent Feature Creep (10:19) Science vs. Art in Product (11:03) Speed vs. Quality in Product (14:07) Common Reason Why Companies Fail: Talent, Process or Systems (16:08) How To Do Product Reviews (20:19) Balancing Open Debate with Directive Leadership (24:40) What is Possibility Thinking? (27:31) Lessons on How To Do Launching (29:23) Balancing Resources Between Core Revenue & Future Innovations (31:31) Lessons on Hiring (33:17) Hiring Process (38:38) Approaching Comp & Title Negotiations (42:45) Opinion on Remote Work (46:00) Bull or Bear: Maria’s Outlook on Europe (47:02) Quick-Fire Round ----------------------------------------------- In Today’s Episode with Maria Angelidou: 1. How to Hire the Best Product Teams: What are the three different archetypes for PMs today? What non-obvious traits does Maria look for in new product hires? How does Maria structure the hiring process? What works? What does not? Does Maria do take home assignments? How has her approach changed here? What is Maria’s biggest advice to candidates on both compensation and title? 2. How the Best Product Teams Do Product Reviews: What does every team get wrong in how they do product reviews? What are the four different type of product reviews? How often does Maria do a product review? Who is invited? Who sets the agenda? How is it structured? What makes good vs great product reviews? 3. Europe vs US: How Product Teams Differ: What is the single biggest difference when comparing product teams in the US vs EU? Does Maria agree that the work ethic is less in the EU? Which class of employee would Maria say is more entitled? What could Europe do to be more competitive with the US? What was the biggest surprise to Maria on returning to Europe from the US? ----------------------------------------------- Subscribe on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3j2KMcZTtgTNBKwtZBMHvl?si=85bc9196860e4466 Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-twenty-minute-vc-20vc-venture-capital-startup/id958230465 Follow Harry Stebbings on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HarryStebbings Follow Maria Angelidou-Smith on Twitter: https://twitter.com/angelidou_maria Follow 20VC on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/20vchq Follow 20VC on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@20vc_tok Visit our Website: https://www.20vc.com Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://www.thetwentyminutevc.com/contact ----------------------------------------------- #20vc #harrystebbings #mariaangelidou #personio #facebook #hiring #venturecapital #cpo #productstrategy #product

Maria AngelidouguestHarry Stebbingshost
Oct 4, 202453mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:44

    Intro

    1. MA

      You only promote people to the next level when they consistently already demonstrated they can operate successfully at that level for a long period of time. Because at that next level, they will be calibrated compared to the group of people, the whole cohort of people who are already operating really well on the next level. And if you promote them prematurely, that's actually going to be really bad for them.

    2. HS

      Ready to go? (upbeat music) Maria, I am so excited for this. I'm also excited, this is your first time on a podcast.

    3. MA

      It is.

    4. HS

      So thank you so much for joining me today.

    5. MA

      Thank you for having me, Harry. I'm really excited to

  2. 0:44 – 3:14

    Joining Facebook

    1. MA

      be here.

    2. HS

      Now, I heard there was a sliding doors moment, uh, when it comes to your entrance into Facebook. So tell me, how did this sliding door story come to be on joining Facebook?

    3. MA

      Yes, it was, uh, indeed a sliding doors type of moment. So I'm gonna take you to 2013. And I was invited to one of those alumni events, right? This is the Boston Consulting Group. I worked at the firm for, you know, many, many years ago. And I typically don't go to these, right? Uh, but that time was different because one of my friends, uh, made partner, and it was a big deal to her. And so I wanted to go and congratulate her and give her a hug, and so I, I said I'm gonna go. And, you know, I remember that, uh, day, I almost didn't go. You know, I had a lot of, uh, work that day and, uh, my husband literally, I remember, was pushing me out of the door 'cause I already committed, and he said, "You should go." Okay, I went. So I come to this event, and I join one of the groups, um, you know, people who are standing and chatting, and I meet this impressive woman. Uh, she was a director of product management, uh, back then, and she speaks of her job at Facebook so passionately, uh, that I was listening to her and, and then I thought, you know, it's either a bunch of BS or there's something that I really don't understand about this company, you know, from everything just from outside in, everything I know about it, right? So she invites me on site and it ends up being a loop of interviews, and I go. Um, and then on my way back, you know, my house is, uh, in Menlo Park, California, and so it's 15 minutes away from the headquarters. And so it took me 15 minutes to get home, and I'm not even at my house yet. And I am, um, pulling into my driveway and my phone rings, and it's, uh, Facebook offering me a job. And so I was so impressed. You know, it just, it took them literally less than 15 minutes, uh, from the time I, you know, left to discuss, you know, debrief, do whatever they needed to do to offer me a job, right? Incredibly impressive.

    4. HS

      How big was the company at this point?

    5. MA

      Gosh, I wanna say maybe 3,000 people.

    6. HS

      Okay.

    7. MA

      Yeah, something like that. And the product team was very, very small, maybe, maybe 100? No, less, less than 100. Um-

    8. HS

      And what was your starting title?

  3. 3:14 – 9:34

    Transition From IC to Manager

    1. MA

      Product manager.

    2. HS

      How do you think about the transition from IC to manager? You went, as you said there, starting as a PM-

    3. MA

      Yeah.

    4. HS

      ... and then you get into this kind of three tiers to me, which is like IC, manager, leader. You can correct me.

    5. MA

      Yeah.

    6. HS

      But that transition from IC to manager is a big one. How did you think about making that transition?

    7. MA

      So my perspective is that, uh, a manager is responsible, first and foremost, for the outcomes of their team. That means that, you know, you as a manager need to do whatever you can, whatever, you know, e- everything that, uh, y- you know, you, you have in your control to de-risk and make sure that your team delivers on what they sign up for. Uh, when you transition from IC to a manager, there are two things that, uh, you should, will change for you. Number one is, you're no longer responsible for just the product that you're working on directly. You're responsible for all the products that your team is working on, right? Like, every one of them. That's one. And two, you're responsible for the people on your team. So, you know, you need to understand their, uh, weaknesses and their development areas and their strengths. You need to manage, uh, you know, deal with underperformance. You need to get them to the next level. Um, and so, you know, the sooner you change your mindset about those two things, uh, as you transition, the better it is.

    8. HS

      Do you think we have a skewed view of progression? And what I mean by that is, you can be a brilliant IC and you should stay as an IC, but actually, some people aren't destined to be managers and managing people, but that's the way that we're told it works. You do very well and then you get promoted.

    9. MA

      Yeah.

    10. HS

      Is that broken?

    11. MA

      You know, this, this, actually, topic is near and dear to my heart. So when I was at, uh, Meta, I, uh, in addition to, you know, uh, my core responsibilities, I was also a functional leader for product management. And one of the things that I did at Meta is I introduced PM archetypes exactly for that problem, right? Because you're gonna have people who are brilliant ICs. If there's no clear career progression for them, right, they feel pressure to transition into management, and oftentimes, that's not the right decision for them and for the company because, um, it's much harder to find very senior ICs who have, you know, superpowers in different, uh, topics than to find managers, right? And so, so I introduced these, um, archetypes. Um, there were, you know, cer- certain, certain characteristics that they were spiking on and, um, for that exact reason is that you could go all the way up to VP on this IC track.

    12. HS

      What are the PM archetypes and how should we think about them?

    13. MA

      So the ones that I, uh, I worked with the team to introduce were, um, in addition kind of to generalist track, you had, um, captain. Uh, so captain is someone who excels in managing just-... insanely complex projects, um, that y- you need to have a central strategy, but then to bring them to life, you have to, uh, manage, uh, you know, 10, 20 teams who are executing on this central strategy. So that's-

    14. HS

      Well, that's not me, so that's, uh-

    15. MA

      ... one, that's one archetype. (laughs)

    16. HS

      ... crossing that box, right? Okay, captain one. (laughs)

    17. MA

      Uh, the second one is entrepreneur. So this is, especially in big companies, you really need to protect that talent, and, um, these are the people who are incredible, uh, fro- for, uh, zero to one, right? Uh, bringing ideas to life and then getting them to product market fit. Um, and so they are just excellent, um, just getting, getting the team together, getting them inspired, motivated, and iterating on an idea to get it to work. So that's the second, um, archetype. And then the next one, the third one and the last one was specialist. So this is, these are the people who have just some very, very deep expertise in a specific domain, like integrity, growth, um, ML, you know, things like that.

    18. HS

      Do you often see ICs wanting to be managers when they shouldn't be?

    19. MA

      Yes, if, if you don't have the right incentives.

    20. HS

      Right, so we have that in terms of, you know, IC to manager.

    21. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    22. HS

      And then, um, the third being leader.

    23. MA

      Yeah.

    24. HS

      How do we think about what is required to go from manager to product leader?

    25. MA

      Good product leaders need to have general management skills, so that means that they need to have not just, uh, a strong product sense, but also a strong business sense. Can they manage a portfolio of products, you know, i- is, is complex, and can they distribute capacity and resources appropriately? Can they manage towards a healthy P&L? Can they drive business goals, not just product goals?

    26. HS

      Speaking of kind of P&Ls, one of the biggest needle movers on, on Facebook's P&L was in particular kind of th- ads monetization engine around video.

    27. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    28. HS

      S- something that, you know, you were so central to.

    29. MA

      Yeah.

    30. HS

      Can you take me to that story?

  4. 9:34 – 10:19

    How To Prevent Feature Creep

    1. MA

    2. HS

      How do you prevent feature creep? 'Cause it's really hard.

    3. MA

      Yeah.

    4. HS

      Year after year, like, you know, add nothing.

    5. MA

      I think there is a few things that you can do. I'll give you a few examples. One is, you know, you can have, um, really, uh, solid design guidelines and design system that the teams that, um, develop in their corners of the product then can go to and lean on to have consistency. Um, you can have, uh, front-end components that are ready to grab, and so the teams don't reinvent them. And again, there's lack of consistency, right? Right now, we're developing, um, a really clear tone of voice guidelines. So this is like how the product talks to you across the different surfaces, um, that if it's all consistent, it feels

  5. 10:19 – 11:03

    Science vs. Art in Product

    1. MA

      simpler.

    2. HS

      How do you think about product being science versus art?

    3. MA

      Mm.

    4. HS

      You, you know, when you talk about kind of intuition there versus maybe more data-centric decision-making, it kind of makes me-

    5. MA

      Yeah.

    6. HS

      ... think of product vers- uh, science versus art.

    7. MA

      Yeah, yeah.

    8. HS

      How do you think about that?

    9. MA

      I think if product was all science, then you wouldn't see so much diversity in the outcomes of all these companies that trying to get to product market fit. And so I definitely think that there is art, um, part of, of, uh, building a product, right? You have to nail the science part of this, uh, right? Like, you, you have to know what it is, and because it increases the chances of success, but I think the most important part of the whole thing is, without which you're not gonna have breakthrough success, is

  6. 11:03 – 14:07

    Speed vs. Quality in Product

    1. MA

      the art part of it.

    2. HS

      In product and decision-making, when you think about speed versus quality and product, a lot of people, especially in the early stages, like, "Speed is all that matters. Speed, speed, speed."

    3. MA

      Yeah.

    4. HS

      How do you think about that speed versus quality when it comes to product?

    5. MA

      A lot of people talk about this, uh, you know, nowadays, and we are asked to do more with less, and we want to do more with less. Um, and, you know, every team is asking the same question. So my teams are actually no different than that. Um, when I push for faster, um, better results, uh, I often hear back, you know, "Well, what do you want us to do? Do you want us to ship faster, or do you want us to, um, uh, ship a better product?" And my answer to that is, "I, I want both." And I say that not to be difficult. Um, I think, you know, there's definitely a relationship there, and the more time you spend on polishing something, uh, the more polished and crafted that's gonna be. But a lot of people miss this point that they assume that everything is operating, um, at an optimal way, you know, at the baseline level, and that's almost never the case. So I'll tell you this story, right? Like, um, recently, I, I was talking to one of the senior product leaders on my team.And this was after I gave them feedback that, you know, they, they could go faster and there was some polish on their products that could be better. And we, uh, drew this, uh, graph in, in, uh, on the white, whi- whiteboard in my office. So it was sort of like, the x-axis was, uh, the speed of execution and the y-axis was, uh, the quality of the product. And the graph was something like this, right? Like, the faster the pace, the lower the quality. The, um, you know, lower the pace, the h- the fast- you know, the, the, the higher the quality. And he asked me, well, like, "Do you not think that there is an inverse relationship here?" And I drew a line, uh, that was to the right of that line. And so I said, "Yes, there is, uh, an inverse relationship, and you can go faster and you can, um, build better products at the same time." And so, how can that be, right? The, the, and so if you think about all of the things that enable a team to go faster, and you think of all of the themes that, uh, enabled them to shape better products, there's so many things you can improve. And they can be typically bucketed into, like, three major things. It's either the talent on the team or adjacent teams, right? So they have the right talent. Um, i- or it's, um, you know, how do they get stuff done? Or, you know, what is, you know, what are the tools and the systems and the tag that they use to get stuff done? And if you don't have, you know, the right team, the right talent, you don't ... and they're not working optimal ways to get stuff done, and they're also using tools that hold them back, well, your team is not gonna be, you know, at their maximum, um, on both of those, of dimensions.

  7. 14:07 – 16:08

    Common Reason Why Companies Fail: Talent, Process or Systems

    1. MA

    2. HS

      N- what is the most common reason why companies fail today, talent, process, or systems?

    3. MA

      I think it depends on the company. Uh, typically, (laughs) you know, there is, like, opportunities across all three. Um, and it depends on, you know, who built the company. Uh, i- did you have kind of people who knew what they were doing when they were b- building the systems?

    4. HS

      In teams that you've worked with before, which one has been the one to break down?

    5. MA

      Probably the, the middle one, like how people get stuff done.

    6. HS

      Process?

    7. MA

      Yeah.

    8. HS

      How do you build process in product teams?

    9. MA

      (laughs) Uh, I- I'm actually allergic to process. (laughs)

    10. HS

      Okay.

    11. MA

      So-

    12. HS

      Why?

    13. MA

      So I think that, you know, there is, um, uh, you can get stuff done with either initiative or process, and both of those extremes are bad, right? You, um, you know, if you have a company where it's all about initiative and there's no central process whatsoever, like, you're gonna have a lot of chaos, and you're gonna have a lot of things that are, uh, conflicting efforts. And so, that's also gonna slow you down, and, you know, it, it's gonna be hard. And also, if you have, you know, on the other side, if it's all about process, and y- you train your team to wait for process to do anything, uh, right, you're gonna, you're gonna f- you're gonna feel like it's like a bureaucratic government over time, and nobody, nobody talented is gonna wanna work in an environment like that. So both extremes are bad. I think, um, there's ... Companies do better when there is, yeah, just minimum process, um, and the process and means to an end. And that end is, you know, it's either for, to help people go faster or to help them ship better products. Any other process is waste of time, and you have to be really, really diligent not to let it become over-processing in your organization, 'cause it's actually gonna, uh, it could

  8. 16:08 – 20:19

    How To Do Product Reviews

    1. MA

      destroy a culture.

    2. HS

      So when we think about, like, helping them ship better products, the way to measure that is, uh, you know, most often in product reviews.

    3. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    4. HS

      Very different according to different leaders, different companies. What have been your biggest lessons on how to do product reviews right?

    5. MA

      I, I set aside two to three hours a week for product reviews. We don't have to fill them up, right? Like, the way that, um, we decide what to review is both in pull and push ways. So pull is me and my report, um, in our staff meeting, we discuss typically, okay, like, what are the priorities, how are they going, and, you know, are there other things that we want to discuss, um, because there's a lot of ambiguity, whatever, whatever. And so that's, that's the pull way, and then push is when the teams themselves, you know, they, they want to discuss a topic because they need help with making a decision, they need, um, you know, uh, a tra- h- help on trade-offs that they're considering or some kind of strategic considerations. Whatever it is, right? So, those are the two, two ways.

    6. HS

      Who's invited?

    7. MA

      I ask my teams to, uh, stick to the minimum number of people, uh, that we, they need to have a good discussion. So basically, I ask, uh, only for people who need to directly contribute to the discussion to be in the review, and that's typically, like, up to 10 people. Um, but what we do, because I, I think transparency, uh, is very, very important, we record every review. And we have a Slack chat, we use Slack. And we post every, about every review, the materials, um, the recording, uh, the action items, the ETAs. Like, everything is documented. And, uh, then the team can pull whatever information they want.

    8. HS

      What are the biggest reasons product reviews are not done well?

    9. MA

      You know, there are different product reviews. Um, uh, we, we have kind of, like, four different types in my current, um, uh, organization.

    10. HS

      What are those four different types?

    11. MA

      T- there could be a strategy review. So the strategy review is where we d- go deep on what is the problem that we're trying to solve, why is it important. We talk about product opportunity, we talk about business case, whatever it is.But it's all about just, like, the what, if you will, if, if you will. The second one is, um, roadmap review. So this is like an ex- execution plan for whatever problem you're trying to solve, and it talks about the sequencing, the milestones, the exact goals that, you know, the team is gonna, uh, take, and why those goals are not another, uh, another set of goals. Um, and it's basically the plan to get there, so it's the how. Um, we have a launch review. So launch review is before the launch of any product, uh, we look at all of the things that need to come together to have a successful launch, uh, and the same review will look at experience, and we, um, pressure test it against the quality bar that we have. And then, last type is business review, so we look at, um, the financial performance of the product and, you know, all of the business, um, levers for that product to do well or not well, you know, what need to, w- we need to change, what we need to pay attention to. So those are the, the four types. Now, you asked about, you know, what, w- when product reviews don't go well, and I think, um, one of the reasons, um, is when the team doesn't know what are the, um, the most important questions that we need to answer, and you can catch that in the pre-read. So, uh, we ask that, uh, the pre-read is sent, is sent at least 24 hours in advance.

    12. HS

      What is in the pre-read?

    13. MA

      Uh, well, the pre-read goes over, you know, the, depending on the review type, it goes over, you know, the problem that we're trying to solve, and, you know, the, all the different components, uh, that you need to discuss as part of, like, the review type.

    14. HS

      And so it's sent over as a Google Doc 24 hours beforehand?

    15. MA

      It's a Google Doc, um, that everyone is, uh, expected to read before the review and add any comments or thoughts in that document so that we can have a productive discussion.

    16. HS

      Have you ever not read the pre-read?

    17. MA

      You know, I really try to not be a bad example. Um, I think if, if the pre-read is sent 24 hours in advance, I will. Uh, if the pre-read is sent, like, you know, I don't know, one hour in advance,

  9. 20:19 – 24:40

    Balancing Open Debate with Directive Leadership

    1. MA

      I'm not gonna be able to do that, right? And so, yeah.

    2. HS

      Uh, uh, that's their fault.

    3. MA

      Yes. Yeah, yeah. (laughs)

    4. HS

      That's on them. Uh, strategy, number one, Gustav of Spotify, who I love-

    5. MA

      Yeah.

    6. HS

      ... uh, and he's right and I'm wrong on this, just to be very clear-

    7. MA

      Yeah.

    8. HS

      ... but he always says, "Talk is cheap," and so we should do more of it when it comes to, like, strategic direction, where to go-

    9. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    10. HS

      ... and kind of orienting that direction. I think, I think talk's really expensive, um, and we should do less of it-

    11. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    12. HS

      ... um, says the podcaster. Uh, brilliant irony there.

    13. MA

      (laughs)

    14. HS

      Uh, how do you think about, "Talk is cheap, we should do more of it," really encouraging debate, versus my style, which is more dictatorial direction?

    15. MA

      I think debate is incredibly important, um, and so one of the things, uh, but I also don't know if talk is cheap, so I think those are two different concepts. Um, so, uh, you know, one of the things that I really loved about the culture of Facebook when I was there, uh, was, can, can be captured by, you know, strong opinions loosely held. I think a lot of the, uh, one, one of the reasons why we, we were successful with, with products is that we were really living that, um, kind of value and that, that culture, um, and it, it really means two things. One is that you have to have a point of view, and to get to a point of view that you feel conviction about, you're gonna have to go deep into whatever topic you having this point of view about, right? You're gonna have to do your homework, you're gonna have, uh, to spend enough time to develop expertise in that topic to have a strong point of view, and you have to share that point of view, and people will debate, um, a lot. (laughs) I was going to say the crap out of it, but, um-

    16. HS

      You'll find say the crap out of it, yeah, I'm fine.

    17. MA

      ... okay, and that's how you get to, uh, a better outcome. And the second part of that-

    18. HS

      (laughs)

    19. MA

      ... uh, was that, you know, you, you, you, you, you should not be stuck with your point, strong point of view, right? Like, you should be open to new information as it comes in, and not just open to new information. You should go seek out new information because you know that it makes your decision better. And so th- that's what this culture about, you know, not the important of not being right, but it's the importance of, you know, making, uh, the right decisions. So that's one thing. You, you talked about the, you know, talk is cheap, and, uh, there, I really agree with you. I disagree with the philosophy that talk is cheap. Um, just because talk doesn't cost us any code doesn't mean that we need to do more of it. Um, I think, like you said, uh, you know, talking costs us time, and that is the time that you can be spending, you know, progressing towards your North Star, and, you know, your teams could be executing during that time, right? So-

    20. HS

      I think talk is also very expensive because it can lead to disillusionment in a lot of cases, where it's like, "Oh, let's have this great debate." You present your opinion vociferously and with great passion, and I say, "Thank you so much. No." And we go and do what I think. It's much better actually for me not to let you present your opinion.

    21. MA

      Yeah, but I, but I think if you, uh, if you have, uh, if you're not open to debate, then yeah, it's not, it's not very, it's a different type of company you're running. (laughs)

    22. HS

      (laughs)

    23. MA

      Right? Uh, and I think you-

    24. HS

      (laughs)

    25. MA

      ... you miss out, Harry, because you hire people who are smart, and they will know stuff and information that you j- you just, no matter how genius you are, you're not gonna know anything about.

    26. HS

      Well, I just don't like pontifications.

    27. MA

      Oh, I, I hate, I hate pontifications.

    28. HS

      And I think you pontif- No, no, no, I think, I think, I think we get into a room-

    29. MA

      Yeah. You know-

    30. HS

      ... and think we're all so smart with a whiteboard. Why don't you do what I say? I'm gonna be wrong. You're gonna learn that I'm wrong, and come back and tell me why I'm wrong.

  10. 24:40 – 27:31

    What is Possibility Thinking?

    1. MA

      debates in them.

    2. HS

      I got to hold, I had to ask this: what is possibility thinking?

    3. MA

      Oh.

    4. HS

      'Cause, uh, that sounded like pontification-

    5. MA

      (laughs)

    6. HS

      ... if I'm honest, Maria.

    7. MA

      Um, so the idea is that as a product leader, and as a, uh, product organization more broadly, you don't want to be only going after small incremental gains. You want to also be, uh, going af- y- you also want to go after big ideas, and you want to take big swings, because they are more likely to bring, um, step-change growth to your business. And so the possibility thinking, what it does, it, it asks you to dream big and to think big and to not be afraid to go after, you know, much riskier and higher-reward ideas. If your team is not, um, doesn't have the muscle to go after big ideas, right, like, over the longer horizon, you're gonna, i- it's a recipe for irrelevance, I think.

    8. HS

      How do you encourage or inspire big ideas in companies?

    9. MA

      There are a couple of things you can do. Um, one is, um, I think as part of your strategy, when you set a strategy, um, and you articulate, you know, what do you expect teams to do, you're gonna think about this, uh, in multi-horizon, uh, time-horizon way, right? And you are going to, um, allocate your resources to big ideas and, or optimizations, new products, existing products. And if you very clear, uh, with y- with the strategy that you set and you communicated to the team, um, I think they're gonna know what to expect then. So that's one, is, as a leader, you have to be very clear, uh, you know, what is the strategy you're driving? And as part of that, ideally it's not just incremental gains. You have allocated resources to go after bigger ideas. The second thing that you have to be really careful with is the incentives that you have in your organization, right? So, how do you recognize impact? Um, who do you reward? Uh, what type of behaviors? You know, do you reward only incremental gains, or do you also reward people who go after bigger ideas, even if they fail? 'Cause some of them will fail, uh, there's no doubt about it. And it is much easier to deliver incremental gains because they're, they can happen in shorter periods of time and they're much more, um, you know, reliable, uh, than to go after bigger ideas, which take more time. They're more unpredictable, right? And so as a leader you have to, um, y- you have to reward both, and- and you have to overcompensate, uh, for the fact that the- the latter is harder.

  11. 27:31 – 29:23

    Lessons on How To Do Launching

    1. MA

    2. HS

      One thing that I love to do is, like, to actually personalize it to different people. So I'll say, "What would MrBeast do if he was running our product today?"

    3. MA

      (laughs)

    4. HS

      And then, "What would Jony Ive do if he was running our products today?"

    5. MA

      Hm.

    6. HS

      And from the same person, you will get multiple different answers with that image of that person in mind. And they'll both be big ideas, but one will be inherently much more design aesthetically pl- pleasing.

    7. MA

      Huh.

    8. HS

      One will be shock-and-awe pleasing.

    9. MA

      That's interesting.

    10. HS

      And it helps frame different big-idea generation in people's minds. Can I ask, launch strategy meetings, I think people do product launches terribly today.

    11. MA

      Yeah.

    12. HS

      Um, what have been your biggest lessons on how to do launches well? Do you know when a launch is good? Like when you have a product that works, is it always just, like, off and to the races?

    13. MA

      No, I think that's more of an exception. I think the... Typically, um, you, you know, you, um, learn and get signals throughout kind of the development process, right? Like we talked about, uh, you, as you discover, as you, um, test different options, as you iterate, um, you gonna gradually, um, yeah, come to a picture of whether the product is a hit or- or- or not. Um, so that's the, in vast majority of cases, it's, uh, it's over a period of time.

    14. HS

      When do you do a second product?

    15. MA

      Ideally, you, you start thinking about and, uh, discovering your second product, um, one to two years before you need it to have results in the market. 'Cause it takes, um, it takes time to go f- you know, to build a successful product. If you are a company with just, uh, one product and you hit product market feet and you're growing and, you know, i- it's all going great, um, that's the time where you start thinking about, okay, like what, when should I introduce the next product? And if it's in another year or two, you start at that point.

  12. 29:23 – 31:31

    Balancing Resources Between Core Revenue & Future Innovations

    1. MA

    2. HS

      So I heard this brilliant statement the other day, and it was like, uh, "Yesterday is history, tomorrow is a mystery, and today is a gift. And that's why it's called the present."

    3. MA

      (laughs)

    4. HS

      Which I thought was really sweet. Uh, uh, and so my question around that actually specifically is about resource allocation with CPTO and how you think about allocating resources between historical tech debt-

    5. MA

      Mm.

    6. HS

      ... existing revenue streams that are working very well and-

    7. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HS

      ... need resources-

    9. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    10. HS

      ... and future blue sky thinking, this could be a next great product- project, product.

    11. MA

      Yeah, so, uh, like you said, right, like there are, there's actually a really simple playbook. Um, there is, uh, there are three categories, like you said. There is, uh, you know, new products, um, that you can be spending your capacity on.And as part of that, I would include any kind of, uh, high, uh, big bets ideas, right? There's the existing products and improving the quality, either optimizations or, um, you know, step change improvements. And then there is, um, if you have existing products, uh, already, your company with m- multiple products already, uh, there's obviously maintenance of those products, or also known as KTLO, and internal product activities. So th- those are the three, um, kind of, uh, major kind of categories of investment. If you are a company that has already multiple product lines and you have, you know, hundreds of millions in, uh, i- in revenue, that's where you start being very, very intentional, uh, because y- the, uh, the percent of your allocation to your existing products starts to go up. And, and so ideally, um, even at that point, it's not, that is not more than what you invest in your, uh, new products, right? So, let's say you invest 30 to 40% in your existing products and 30 to 40% in new products, and then the rest, whatever it is, uh, 25, 30% goes to maintain like, KTLO and internal productivity. As part of that new products bucket, my, um, advice is to keep at least 5%, maybe 10% of capacity that goes into planting new

  13. 31:31 – 33:17

    Lessons on Hiring

    1. MA

      seeds.

    2. HS

      All of this is driven by people.

    3. MA

      Yeah.

    4. HS

      And hiring is so important to any leader's-

    5. MA

      Mm-hmm. Yep.

    6. HS

      ... role. Probably-

    7. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    8. HS

      ... most important. What have been your biggest lessons on how to hire the best product people?

    9. MA

      I think that you hire people that are better than you, stronger than you, smarter than you. Um, actually, when I was at, at, uh, Facebook, um, Mark used to say, you know, "You should hire people that you would want to report to." And I completely agree with that. So that's one. Um, the second thing is like, when I hire-

    10. HS

      Do you, do you, do you though?

    11. MA

      Yeah.

    12. HS

      I mean it in the nicest way, like-

    13. MA

      Yeah, 100%.

    14. HS

      ... if they're better than me and I would wanna report to them-

    15. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    16. HS

      ... fuck it, I'll pay them more than me and I will report to them.

    17. MA

      (laughs)

    18. HS

      But they're not. I- of course they're not. That's why I am where I am and that's where they are. Like (laughs) , I'm sorry. And actually, it takes out the whole b- segment of young people who are incredibly tenacious, ambitious, hungry hustlers, who of course they're not as good as me. I've been doing this for 10 years.

    19. MA

      But they can be better than-

    20. HS

      But they can be.

    21. MA

      Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

    22. HS

      Yeah, but they're not, they're not.

    23. MA

      I mean, it depends on the level and who, like, for, for people who report to me, absolutely, I want them to be better than me. That's why, that's why I'm hiring them. Uh, obviously, if you are hiring someone who, I don't know, three levels down from you, uh, it's not gonna be at th- at that point, but you, you're still hiring for potential, and-

    24. HS

      I'm so sorry, if they're better than you, why do they report to you?

    25. MA

      I mean-

    26. HS

      They should report not to you.

    27. MA

      I mean, maybe they're not better than me on all dimensions, but you can see yourself reporting to that person. That's the essence of it, right? Like, uh, with some more experience or whatever it is, like, you would be happy reporting to that person, because you know i- you know, at some point, they're gonna be, they're going to be better than you on all dimensions.

    28. HS

      Okay. So in a future world, we, we can see ourselves reporting to them.

  14. 33:17 – 38:38

    Hiring Process

    1. HS

      Okay. What's the hiring process?

    2. MA

      It's a four-phase process. Um, so the first phase is, um, the screening and exploration, so there's a couple of interviews there. The TA, um, talent acquisition partner that does, um, you know, just, uh, looks at relevant experience, uh, any, any kind of like location, uh, things like this, any fit with the current roles. And then if that is a check, then it goes into an exploration with a product leader. And it depends on the level, uh, you know, for more senior people it could be my reporters that are doing those. Um, and they look at, you know, digging a little bit, uh, into motivation, relevant experience, going deeper into, okay, do we have any open roles that feed that, uh, for what we're looking for, and any red flags. So, if they go through the first phase, this exploratory phase, then they get into functional loop. So functional loop looks into, um, uh, vetting their product sense and their execution. So, product sense is, you know, do they, um, can they take an ambiguous problem and, you know, can they understand customers, uh, well, can they come up with, through all of that, with, you know, a good solution to the problem? And so it really tests their product intuition as well. Uh, can they make decisions that are, you know, pulling data insights from all the sources? The execution interview, um, each of them are about 45 minutes. Um, the execution interview looks at, you know, uh, their ability to set the right goals for the team, uh, measurable and, you know, the right goals for what they're trying to achieve.

    3. HS

      Do we do a take-home assignment for that? Do we do a test in the room? How do we do them?

    4. MA

      We have a take assignment, but it's a phase three.

    5. HS

      Oh, that's a nice one.

    6. MA

      Yeah. (laughs)

    7. HS

      (whistles)

    8. MA

      So you go through that, and then-

    9. HS

      Fuck, I've never had a job. This is exhausting.

    10. MA

      ... and then, uh-

    11. HS

      (laughs)

    12. MA

      ... and then you go into home take assignment, uh, which we call case study. Uh, let's say that you passed your functional loop. A case study is typically, you know, uh, a set of problems that you would have to solve a- and be working on if you joined the company.

    13. HS

      Is that a problem that the company faces, or a product problem that the company faces?

    14. MA

      Yeah.

    15. HS

      Okay.

    16. MA

      Typically, typically. Mm, if you go, if you check on that, then you get into, uh, the last phase, which is looking at your leadership and drive, and, um, there's a bi-rater interview there, which looks at your values, um, and how, if there's a fit with the values of the company. So, and after that, we do a debrief and we make a decision.

    17. HS

      F- (laughs)

    18. MA

      So, I'll tell you-

    19. HS

      Does that feel right when you say that? Like, that feels-

    20. MA

      Yes.

    21. HS

      ... like an awfully long process.

    22. MA

      It's not.

    23. HS

      If I was top talent, which I'm not, I am like-

    24. Oh, my God. I mean, like, we could have a chat, you meet me at an event-

    25. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    26. HS

      ... and I'm clearly a brilliant product person, I don't, I don't wanna go through that.

    27. MA

      I mean, you can get through all of that within a few days. It depends on how you design your... like, if you want to move fast. So, I'll tell you on the case study, I wasn't actually, um, a fan of that. Personio had that-

    28. HS

      Why were you not a fan of that? And then how did you change your mind?

    29. MA

      I just never, you know, I, I never, uh, used it in the past, and I thought, you know, as you, you just said, like, I mean, who's gonna put all of this time and, you know. So, Personio actually had, uh, this is the company I work at now, um, had case studies part of their process. And, um, when I was going through the process, I was talking with Hanno, uh, the CEO, um, they also asked me to do a case study. So they gave me a case study, and when I looked at that, like you just said, I was like, "Are you kidding me? I, there's no way I can find time to do this." Like, and it was like pages and pages of, like, I don't do that in my process. Uh, I'll come to that. Uh, it was like a pretty, uh, I don't know, 30 pages or something. And so, I almost withdrew from that process. And it just so happened that like, you know, as I was, I was looking into that, uh, case study, it was describing all of the problems that I would have to tackle if I, if I started at the company, and it really piqued my interest. Like, you know, I'm a sucker for a challen- like, a good challenge, uh, learning new things, and, um, that actually played in their favor with me, because I started to look in that, uh, into that, and it drew me in. Yeah.

    30. HS

      And then, you know, I felt invested, and I, I was looking forward to, like, rolling up my sleeves and, and just like getting into, and getting into it and, and, and tackling all those challenges. And so when I started at the company, and, uh, you know, I had to redesign the entire hiring process to make it more rigorous. Think you did a very good job. (laughs)

  15. 38:38 – 42:45

    Approaching Comp & Title Negotiations

    1. MA

    2. HS

      How do you think about the comp stage? When you offer comp, and the response is to comp and title?

    3. MA

      I think you should definitely negotiate. And I'll tell you that women typically don't negotiate, and, and, and men do. So, that's my experience. So, I think you have to negotiate, it's just part of the, uh, you know, deal. Feel uncomfortable negotiating with the company, negotiate with the, um, talent acquisition person, right? Like whoever the recruiter is. Don't negotiate with the manager. Um, 'cause also, they also sometimes don't know, you know, what-

    4. HS

      Why do you think women don't negotiate and men do?

    5. MA

      I think they internalize that too much, and they f- feel like that might, um, I, I'm talking from personal experience. (laughs) I, I-

    6. HS

      As a woman. (laughs)

    7. MA

      Yeah.

    8. HS

      It's kind of hard not to act.

    9. MA

      As a woman. Uh, but I think there is a misconception that that could reflect maybe badly on your relationship with the person that you're talking to. And I think it's, at the end, it's, it's, it shouldn't be the case. The title, I think title is, is not, like, you, as a company, like, when I, when I came into Personio, I changed all the titles, and, you know, simplified and all of that. So, I don't think you can give, unless you are really, really early, but I, I don't think you just can give whatever titles, right? Like, you have to have consistency in the organization, uh, and clear mapping to all the levels, you know, from other companies you hire from. So, I think title is not something that you typically can negotiate.

    10. HS

      How quickly do you know they're not the right person?

    11. MA

      If it's a really bad hire, you will know, like, within a few weeks. If it's, most cases though, um, you know, you just, you just know that that's like, you know, they're kind of slower-

    12. HS

      Can you let someone go in a few weeks, though? It feels a bit harsh. I'm with you, totally. I, I think often sometimes sooner than that. But like, you can't let them go?

    13. MA

      Why not? You have, you have-

    14. HS

      It's brutal.

    15. MA

      I mean, in Europe you have the probation thing, right? (laughs) So, so this is a new thing I learned.

    16. HS

      Totally.

    17. MA

      But yeah, there's this thing that's called probation, and, you know, that's, that's where you decide, you know-

    18. HS

      You don't have that in the US?

    19. MA

      No. It's at, at will employment.

    20. HS

      Wow. So you can make a mistake, and it's like, oop.

    21. MA

      No, you make a mistake and you part ways.

    22. HS

      Wow. No, we have probation.

    23. MA

      Yeah, I know that. (laughs)

    24. HS

      Yeah, but that's because when you pass probation-

    25. MA

      And also very, very long, long lead, lead time to hire anyone. It's just, it's just so much harder in Europe.

    26. HS

      But then when you... Why is it harder in Europe?

    27. MA

      You know, this is actually one of the things that I had to adjust, is that, uh, you know, for every, uh, let's say, 20, uh, maybe 10, 20 if it's specialized role, kind of things that you get in the US that are solid, maybe you get one in Europe. And that actually really slows down your hiring.

    28. HS

      Okay.

    29. MA

      Because unless you, uh, unless you hire, like lower your hiring bar, which you're not gonna do. And so, um, I think that's actually a competitive disadvantage for EU-based companies.

    30. HS

      So, it's just the depth of talent is so much less?

  16. 42:45 – 46:00

    Opinion on Remote Work

    1. MA

      I, I would say.

    2. HS

      How do you feel about remote work?

    3. MA

      When I, uh, when I started at, uh, Personio, we had, you know, we were just coming out of, uh, the pandemic, and there wasn't really like an intentional strategy for, uh, you know, location strategy. And so, I actually did a lot (laughs) of research, um, and I talked to a, a bunch of my peers in public companies and private companies to see like what's working and what's not. I ended up deciding that we're gonna continue to hire remotely. The benefit that you get from that is that you just have, uh, access to much better talent, and you can hire much faster. Risk and like ... but you can totally mitigate that, I think. Uh, maybe not totally, but you can mitigate that, is that, you know, when people are in person, there's many more opportunities to spend time together in unstructured way, like socialize, and, you know, ideas come up, and, you know, the, the, the ... Not, not in a structured way, right? And so, and you also form much stronger relationships, uh, you know, in, on the team. And so I think as long as you have a, um, a way to bring people together regularly, which I do, and, um, you create that environment, I think you can mitigate most of the kind of n- not being, not being in person. Yeah.

    4. HS

      How regularly do you get everyone to come together?

    5. MA

      I ask that my, my teams at the team level get together at least once a quarter, and then-

    6. HS

      How much worse are team meetings remote?

    7. MA

      How, how much more?

    8. HS

      How much worse are they remote?

    9. MA

      If you have ... You know, we have about 30% remote, uh, in product and technology, which is the, the, uh, organization that I run. When you have such a high percent of remote people, you're actually really, really intentional with meetings. And so, we shift to async collaboration as much as we can. And there are all these tools now, right? Like, we use Loom, for example, for that. Um, and you can really minimize, and then you have, um, y- you know, the things that you do together in person, uh, they become much higher signal.

    10. HS

      Do you find product reviews are worse remote?

    11. MA

      Product reviews I don't think are that much worse because we have a structured process. It's a structured, uh, thing, right? Like, what you described is more like brainstorming and, you know, just ...

    12. HS

      Idea generation.

    13. MA

      ... briefing ... Yeah, riffing on each other's ideas. And I think like for that, like for example, I right now live in Munich, and, uh, I don't go to the office. It's like five minutes away from my off- my, my, my, my house. I don't go to the office every day, right? Um, but, um, what I do, regardless if I'm in the office or not, if I have an idea, I will just quickly, uh, ping, uh, you know, if it's my direct or, or, uh, someone who reports to them or someone who reports to them, but like, I work with all sort of, uh, people on my team, right? Like, you don't need to only go to your directs. Like, that's, that's really important. And we'll just quickly get on Zoom (laughs) and we'll talk about that. A- as long as you no n- ... You don't make out of it like this whole meeting, and, you know. So you need to leave a bunch of time on your calendar that is not packed with meetings, so that you, you as you have, go through your creative process, you can quickly grab people and talk to them, um, a- as part of

  17. 46:00 – 47:02

    Bull or Bear: Maria’s Outlook on Europe

    1. MA

      your day.

    2. HS

      Having worked in the center of the Valley and now in Europe, are you more of a bear or a bull on Europe, uh, in European innovation? (laughs)

    3. MA

      I think it's hard because of like the access to talent that I told you, right? Like ...

    4. HS

      That's the number one thing.

    5. MA

      That's the number one thing. The other thing is the process versus, uh, initiative. Like, I think, um, if you go back to that, uh, spectrum that I described, like, you can get stuff done with initiative or process, and you come to the middle, I think my experience is that ... An- and this is generalization, but, uh, the companies in the US tend to be closer, like, c- on this side, towards, towards initiative, and companies in Europe tends to, to go towards the process. Again, it doesn't mean that you can't have a company that thrives on initiative and has minimum process in Europe. You just have to be much more intentional because it's not, it's not the default.

    6. HS

      You also can't fire people.

    7. MA

      Yes. Y- y- ... Well, it's, it's more ... it's harder.

    8. HS

      N- Absolutely, it is. Uh, very amicably done, by the way.

    9. MA

      Yeah.

    10. HS

      I think you navigated that one brilliantly. Um, sorry for the hard question.

    11. MA

      No,

  18. 47:02 – 52:52

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. MA

      it's good.

    2. HS

      Uh, can we do a quick-fire round?

    3. MA

      Sure, let's do it.

    4. HS

      Okay. So tell me about a time when you most vociferously disagreed with your manager.

    5. MA

      Maybe the one, uh, example I'll pick is, uh, from the time that, you know, I actually changed m- my mind, and I still use that insight from, you know, that debate. So, it was actually earlier, uh, earlier in, at Facebook when I was ...... sure that I was going to promote this one person that I hired and invested in him. I got them ready for the next level, yeah, all of the stuff, and I was really convinced that it was the right time to promote him, and my manager said, "Mm-mm, he's not ready." And, uh, you know, we went back and forth. I was, it was pretty, uh, strong debate back and forth, and I was at the point where I was like, "Okay, I'll just disagree and commit." And, um, she grabbed time with me and kind of explained her rationale, which is, you know, she explained to me this idea that promotions need to be lagging, uh, trailing, and not, uh, leading. What she meant by that is, you know, you, you, you only promote people to the next level when they actually consistently already demonstrated that they can operate successfully at that level, uh, for a long period of time. And if then, they haven't done that, don't promote them, because actually promoting them, uh, when, when it's premature, it's, it's worse for them. Because at that next level, they will be calibrated, you know, just like compared to the group of people, the whole cohort of people who are already operating really well in the next level. And if you promote them prematurely, that's actually gonna be really bad for them. They might actually churn from the company, right? Because, uh, if they get promoted and they get a bad rating right away, that's a really tough position to recover from.

    6. HS

      People often won't do the role until they're given it. Hence, be a plate remover. You're not gonna take your boss's job when your boss is still there and he's doing it, or she's doing it.

    7. MA

      I think it's a mindset thing. I think, like, this goes back to when you asked me about, you know, what, what, uh, advice do you give to people to get promoted. I think you can absolutely start, um, doing, um, the work at the next level, and taking the responsibility and showing that you can, you can do the job.

    8. HS

      What's the biggest mistake founders make when hiring product teams?

    9. MA

      I think there's two mistakes. Uh, if... At least of what I, what I've seen, uh, in my experience. One is, they don't hire the right person, and so it could be either because they don't know what the role needs to be successful, or they don't know how to vet the person. You know, they, they haven't seen what great looks like and then they compromise really quickly. Um, so that's one. And the second part is, they, uh, don't know how to s- build, uh, like a, uh, a good product team from structure perspective. Like, what do I mean by that? Like, i- if you look at every individual PM, they all make sense as individual hires, but if you put them all together as a product team, you're like, they're all junior and they're all high horsepower, high potential, but there's no one there to actually train them and (laughs) , you know, like, get them to the next level and all of that stuff. So, just, like, the structure sometimes doesn't get ...

    10. HS

      A friend of yours is, is just become a CPO at a new company, or at a company, and they start the role tomorrow.

    11. MA

      Mm-hmm.

    12. HS

      And we're having a coffee beforehand today.

    13. MA

      Yep. Yep.

    14. HS

      What do you advise them starting in the role?

    15. MA

      Build context as fast as possible. Do a listening tour. Um, just b- build expertise in the company that you're joining, right, like in the space that you're now gonna be building products for. Um, spend time with customers, spend time with, uh, your finance team to understand, like, all of the business behind it. Use the product, um, use the competitors' p- like, just literally become an expert in this space, and then at the same time, you know, start putting, um, yeah, points on the board. Just start, uh, be- make yourself valuable to your boss, to your team, to your peers. Like, don't wait until you're an expert. I think you asked that question earlier, and I think both of those are important.

    16. HS

      Final one, which recent company product strategy have you been most impressed by?

    17. MA

      Well, I cannot not mention, um, with everything that's going on in our industry, uh, Satya and Microsoft and what he did with OpenAI and Infection AI, and I think he really saw that AI was, like, an all-in moment for Microsoft, and actually, the rest of tech, and took a bet, and I think it's, it's proving to be a pretty good bet. The other example I would maybe highlight is Instacart. So, Fidji is the CEO there, and, uh, someone that I, uh, used to work with at, at Meta, and so I follow the company, and I'm pretty impressed with what she's done, uh, with the company, right? Like, she turned it around, made it profitable during difficult time, um, and, you know, she brought in the high margin ads business, and I think she's also taking this, uh, kind of win-win kind of, uh, mindset to, to all this approach. Like, I was reading about the deal that they made with, between Uber and Instacart, and I think that's brilliant, like bo- both of them, right? Like, it positioned them much better in restaurant delivery against players like, you know, um, DoorDash. And she also, uh, is investing in, um, yeah, healthy eating for low income communities. So, I think, like, if you just put all of that together, I think, um, she's an incredible operator and it's been impressive to watch her.

    18. HS

      I so appreciate your putting up with me pushing back ...

    19. MA

      (laughs)

    20. HS

      ... on many different aspects. Uh, I love doing this, so thank you so much for making this your first podcast.

    21. MA

      Yeah. Thank you for having me. It's, uh, it, it was fun.

Episode duration: 53:03

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