Mark Goldberger: The Ultimate Guide to Enterprise Sales | E1003

1. 0:00 – 0:42

   Intro

   1. MGMark Goldberger0:00

      There's a great quote from John McMahon, who was a tremendous sales leader, "The difference between winners and losers is that losers practice until they get it right. Winners practice until they never get it wrong."

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:12

      (quirky music) Mark, I am so excited for this. I heard so many great things from so many former colleagues of yours and current colleagues of yours. So thank you so much for joining me today.

   3. MGMark Goldberger0:22

      Harry, my man, it is so good to be here. Thanks so much for having me on the show.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:26

      Now, we have a lot to dive into, but I wanna start with, actually, the move, uh, to Ramp and leading Ramp's enterprise sales team. So how did you make your way into the world of enterprise sales, and how did you most recently come to lead Ramp's enterprise sales team?

   5. MGMark Goldberger0:40

      Yeah. It's a great question, Harry.

2. 0:42 – 4:18

   Mark’s Background

   1. MGMark Goldberger0:42

      Uh, I came to the world of enterprise sales from the world of wine. Uh, I recognize (laughs) that's not the typical journey one makes, uh, but it is my own story. Uh, so I was working in, in Massachusetts, uh, as a salesperson for a wine distributorship while I was going to business school. And upon graduating, it was the Great Recession. Not a great time to leave a good-paying job for an unpaid internship somewhere.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings1:05

      Ah.

   3. MGMark Goldberger1:05

      So I actually founded my own company. I bootstrapped a, a, a SaaS business back then, uh, knowing nothing about SaaS, mind you, uh, but built a, a cloud-based company with, uh, with tools in the cloud specifically for, uh, for the wine industry. Uh, bootstrapped it, we had paying customers, uh, it was a wild, incredible experience. Uh, after a few years, ultimately I did decide to, to wind down that business. Uh, my wife and I moved out to Silicon Valley when she took a role with, uh, a little startup in Mountain View called Google.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings1:35

      (laughs)

   5. MGMark Goldberger1:35

      I don't know if you've heard of them. Uh, and so, uh, so I found myself, uh, out here in Silicon Valley, and I said, "Okay, I'm gonna be an account executive now, again, for, for SaaS companies." And I, I sent my resume out to about 100 companies, and the response was... Well, there was no response. Literally could not get an interview. More than 100 resumes sent out, I had founded my own company that was a SaaS company, I had always been a top performer in sales, and yet no one was interested in even interviewing me. It was a, a frustrating experience, it was a humbling experience, uh, but ultimately, as someone who ha- has already had a giant chip on my shoulder, uh, it drove me, uh, to, to go out there and s- and, and perform. Harry, you-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings2:22

      Le-

   7. MGMark Goldberger2:22

      ... you look like you've got a question, man.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings2:24

      Yeah. I mean, you, you're the master of also being cold outbound, being the enterprise leader that you are. You must also self-analyze, like, what was wrong with your approach and why did that happen?

   9. MGMark Goldberger2:34

      Yeah. You know, it was, um, eh, I... We can talk more about why it happened, and I think there's, there's fault on both sides. I think there's a challenge from software companies and sales leaders thinking too small inside of a box in terms of the profile-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings2:50

       Mm-hmm.

   11. MGMark Goldberger2:50

       ... of who they're looking for. And there was also an, a, a, a challenge on, on my approach, not having inhabit- uh, lived in this world. It was a world that was foreign to me and I needed to find my way in. Uh, ultimately, after a couple of months, I, I connected with a, a terrific recruiter, uh, David Hipperson at, at Betts, uh, at the time, and, and, uh, I ended up, uh, interviewing and ultimately taking a position with a, a, a video conferencing company called Hi5. It was backed by General Catalyst and, and Lightspeed, uh, it was competing against Zoom, and this was before the pandemic when, when selling video conferencing was maybe a little bit harder. And, uh, and I had a great run there for two years. Uh, ultimately ended up getting recruited by TripActions! now called Navon, and, and, uh, was their first enterprise account executive and really built the enterprise go-to-market there.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings3:38

       I, I, I have to touch on that. You mentioned the time at Navon in such a transformational and kind of hypergrowth time for the company. What are one to two of the biggest takeaways for you from that time and from being the first enterprise, uh, sales leader there? Uh, what have you taken with you to your time now with Ramp?

   13. MGMark Goldberger3:55

       There were so many lessons across the, the four and a half years that I spent there, and working with, with great mentors like Rich Liu and Carlos De La Torre. Uh, the first lesson that I really took away, and this comes from, from when I was an IC, uh, an enterprise account executive there, I built up an, uh, a massive amount of pipeline the, the first six to nine months.

3. 4:18 – 7:30

   EXPLAINED: Product-Customer Fit

   1. MGMark Goldberger4:18

      I had 87 opportunities in my name, Harry, and-

   2. HSHarry Stebbings4:21

      (laughs)

   3. MGMark Goldberger4:21

      ... if you know anything about (laughs) enterprise sales, that's way too many opportunities. Uh, but I started to, to close deals about, uh, month six, and what I recognized was you don't need product-market fit in order to sell an enterprise, especially as that first seller. What you need to find is product-customer fit. And so, when you have a huge amount of pipeline like that, you can really prioritize it and focus on the accounts that match best with the vision that you're building toward and where their required capabilities match with your core competencies. So when you focus on that 20% that's gonna drive 80% of your outcome, amazing things happen. And I closed about $13 million of revenue that first year.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings5:05

      I mean, wow. But let's just kind of... (laughs) Fuck. (laughs) $13 million of revenue for one rep alone, I wish you'd work in some of my portfolio companies.

   5. MGMark Goldberger5:14

      (laughs)

   6. HSHarry Stebbings5:14

      Um, my, my question to you is, you said there about kind of product-customer fit. I love it, I get it, but we have those 86 companies. What do we do then? What does product-customer fit actually mean? Help me and help sales leaders and reps understand that.

   7. MGMark Goldberger5:28

      Yeah. So it, it goes down to, to something that I, that I built later on, uh, uh, a qualification methodology I call the lean pivot walk. And essentially, what you're trying to do is understand, hey, if the boxes that they're looking to check are the boxes that we check really well, you should lean in. You should be going after that opportunity, uh, full force.... if what they're looking for is something that is not even on your roadmap and, and wouldn't be on your roadmap for the next five years, you need to be honest with yourself. So many reps out there have happy ears and just because someone wants to meet with them, they think, "Hey, they've got an opportunity." You need to be honest and, and be able to walk away and qualify that deal out. And then there are other opportunities where maybe you check some of the boxes and not others, and is there a world where they're willing to have two different solutions: one for the rest of the world and maybe one for North America? And so you start to understand these dynamics, and you can play off of them and, and ultimately close a lot of business that way.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings6:29

      You said that you can get product customer fit without having product market fit. I'm really intrigued. Does the salesperson need to be the one to create the sales book- playbook, or does the founder need to be? How do you think about that question in terms of the product market fit question as well?

   9. MGMark Goldberger6:47

      Yeah. Uh, for product market fit, I think that that is driven more by, by the founder, uh, being out in the field, talking to customers, talking to prospects, uh, really understanding their pain points and being able to, to dive in at that level. But when you think about sales and a sales playbook, I think that's, uh, originating from the salesperson. And in some businesses, the founder is that first seller. Uh, in other businesses, I would say, uh, you, you wanna hire a junior salesperson to go out there and, and figure things out. But in no circumstances do you really want to bring in a VP of sales before you have a seller, because they're gonna come in with the preconceived notions that ultimately might not mesh with, with your particular business model.

4. 7:30 – 10:50

   Sales Hiring Tips - Part 1

   1. MGMark Goldberger7:30

   2. HSHarry Stebbings7:30

      I always think hire the more senior because then they can build the team around them rather than hire the junior and then bring in a more senior who then adopts a team that they didn't actually hire. How do you think about that challenge?

   3. MGMark Goldberger7:43

      I think about it a lot. But where I come from, ultimately if you have a sales leader who's coming in, they have a playbook in mind. They have processes in mind, they have sales tools in mind, and those... That playbook might not mesh with the product that they're actually selling. It might not mesh with the people in that organization. And so when you try to, to jam that square peg in the round hole, you, you ultimately create thrash. And for an early startup, you can waste a, a lot of cycles and a lot of time having the wrong people in the wrong position.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings8:23

      I t- I, I do agree with you, and I think that's a really good point. I think, you know, you said that there's some times for a founder where they need to lead the case. When it is the founder leading the case, what are the signals that they need to hire the first junior sales rep? Often it's like, a million in ARR is touted as kind of the number, which I think is kind of bullshit, because it means (laughs) little. What are the signals that the founder needs to make that first hire, do you think?

   5. MGMark Goldberger8:48

      I, I think they should make that first hire, uh, as soon as they have a product that they really want to be testing out in the market. And so I, I think it's a lot sooner than a million ARR, to be honest. Thou- those first sales, uh, I don't think about revenue as being important. The revenue or the currency that matters in those first sales are the logos. You, you need to be acquiring logos. You need to be able to say, "Hey, this company works with us." That gives you credibility when you're trying to make that sale for revenue. You want their feedback. You want the case study. You want them to be a reference for you. That matters a lot more than revenue in those early days.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings9:26

      And I, I absolutely love that in terms of the focus on logos. In terms of kind of going back to that single sales rep hire, Jason Lamkin says about the importance of hiring two at a time so you can really determine quality and compare. Do you agree with that, or do you think one works just as well?

   7. MGMark Goldberger9:43

      The way that I think about it is I'm looking for salespeople who can provide 10X growth, not 1X or 1.5X. And when you find someone who can provide that 10X level of growth, they're a rare find. To find two at the exact same time and to be able to recruit them and have them join at the same time is an exceptionally rare opportunity. If you do find them, by all means, you should hire them. You should hire them as fast as you can, whenever you can. But ultimately, I, I think if you are at scale, uh, it's easier to hire, hey, two salespeople at a time. You're going from 20 reps to 30 reps to 40 reps. Great. Hire a, an incoming class. But in those early days where each additional player is going to have so much impact, you need to be grabbing the best talent when you can.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings10:39

      I, I totally agree with you, and I spoke to the best talent when I could, uh, who worked with you. And so I have a lot of information about-

   9. MGMark Goldberger10:47

      (laughs)

   10. HSHarry Stebbings10:47

       ... why you're so brilliant, Mark. So I wanna dig into some of the areas where

5. 10:50 – 17:52

   Deal Champions

   1. HSHarry Stebbings10:50

      you were 10X, and I wanna start with deal champions and multi-threading in particular. I think it's something that people universally still do badly, actually. How do you confirm you have a deal champion in a cycle?

   2. MGMark Goldberger11:02

      It's a tried and true method. When it comes to thinking you have a champion, there is only one way to know if they really are a champion for you. You have to test them. And the way that you test them is asking them to take you to the executive buyer. Now, that can result in two things. One, they have the power and influence to be able to take you to the EB. Typically, that's a CFO, especially today. If they have the power and influence to do it and they're willing to take you there and, and, and help present with you, you need to be in that meeting on your b- on your behalf, they're selling internally, you've got a champion. If they say no to you, for whatever reason, it means one of two things. Either they don't have the power and influence to take you to the executive buyer, in which case you're dealing with a coach or just a stakeholder in the organization who, who really is not going to be meaningfully important for you, or you haven't earned the right yet...... to have them take you to that CFO or to that EB, in which case you have more selling to do.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings12:03

      Can I ask, what is the right way to ask without seeming slimy or like you're asking for too much?

   4. MGMark Goldberger12:10

      You need to set that expectation from the start. Literally in the first meeting where I walk through a pitch deck, I, I share with them, uh, why we exist, what we're solving for, and what it's like to be working with us in, from everything from implementation and onboarding to, "Hey, part of our sales process is we're going to want to have an open dialogue between your executive team and our executive team. This is not a typical vendor customer relationship, but it's a partnership, and so we wanna make sure there's that open dialogue so that what your CFO cares about, our CEO listens to."

   5. HSHarry Stebbings12:49

      Do they want partnerships? I know that seems stupid, but CFOs are under water right now, managing books, trying to find runway wherever they can, whether it's early stage or growth or, you know, later stage companies and public companies. Do they want partnerships or do they just want you to do your fucking job? (laughs)

   6. MGMark Goldberger13:07

      (laughs) Uh, I think it depends on, on the, the tool or service or platform they're, they're buying. In the case of what I do at Ramp, we're literally selling a platform that provides financial automation for the office of the CFO. They care pretty deeply about that, uh, because it, it actually affects their bottom line. We're- we're driving cost savings and time savings for them. Uh, I think if you have a, a, a tool or a solution that you're selling that is maybe less meaningful for them, you need to figure out how you're tying to value, and if you're ultimately able to tie to the most important value to them, they're going to listen.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings13:44

      When's the right time in the deal cycle to ask to go to the executive buyer? 'Cause you don't wanna do it too soon, where it's like, "Whoa, we've just met Mark, and I'm not quite ready for that," but then you don't wanna do it too late. When's that time?

   8. MGMark Goldberger13:56

      It's different in every deal. If, if you are, are doing a transactional sale, uh, obviously that's going to happen a, a lot earlier in the process than, than in a large, complex global enterprise deal. Uh, you need to be able to get to the executive buyer. Uh, there's a lot of different ways you can get there too. It's not just through a champion. You can leverage your network. You can leverage your board members. You can leverage your executive team to backchannel into that executive. You want to be able to get there and understand what they care about. Listen to the YouTube videos they've posted. Listen to when they joined you, Harry, on, on your podcast, right? All of these are, are going to provide you insight and information that's going to allow you to be more effective in, in, in asking for that meeting. In an enterprise deal, typically you wanna be able to, to get some kind of a business value assessment where you're agreeing on what the value is that we can provide for an organization, and at that point, you're gonna s- uh, you're going to go with your champion and present those findings to the CFO or to the executive buyer.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings15:01

      What should you provide your champion to make sure that they're equipped to sell your case best to the executive buyer on, on your behalf but when you're not there?

   10. MGMark Goldberger15:11

       The phrasing of that question scares the shit out of me, Harry. Uh...

   11. HSHarry Stebbings15:15

       (laughs)

   12. MGMark Goldberger15:15

       And the reason why is that you need to be in that meeting. There is not a world that I would ever be comfortable living in where I wanna outsource my job to a champion at a, at a prospect. That is, that is v- living very dangerously on the edge. I know a lot of salespeople who will take, uh, f- uh, you know, completely wholesale what a champion says. "Hey, my CFO doesn't meet with anybody. My CFO's too busy. I will be the one to, to talk to them on your behalf." No, no, no, no, no. We, we, we can't have that, because what happens when the CFO asks you that question, Mr. or Mrs. Champion, that you don't know the answer to? What happens when they question these numbers or they ask about implementation or, "Have you talked to these different stakeholders?" and you don't know the answer? We have to be in that room with you.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings16:03

       Yeah, Mark, what a terrible question. God.

   14. MGMark Goldberger16:06

       (laughs)

   15. HSHarry Stebbings16:06

       Mark. (laughs) Silly. Um, no, I (laughs) , uh, I thank you for clarifying that, and by the way, do ridicule any questions. I love this. Um, you mentioned kind of the, the importance of multithreading there and bringing the executive buyer. It's important that sales reps and sales teams see around corners. Um, what are some ways that sales reps can get better at seeing around corners during a deal cycle?

   16. MGMark Goldberger16:31

       I think that a lot of people tend to wear rose-colored glasses. They get happy ears, as I mentioned before. Uh, people are meeting with them. They're excited. Rose-colored glasses people are great fun at parties, but they make for shit sellers. You need someone (laughs) who, who is a lot more skeptical, who questions everything. The way that you see around corners is you ask the hard questions. You run toward the danger and what scares you, not away from it. So Harry, what are the reasons why you're going to lose this deal? What happens if your champion leaves? What happens if the CFO says this, that, or the other? If you ask yourself all of these questions and, and any possible way you could potentially lose this deal, well, now you have a map of all of the things that you potentially need to overcome, and in a worst case, you're overcoming objections that, that might not actually take place. And in the best case, you're really prepared for when that punch inevitably comes.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings17:34

       I think this also actually can comment a little bit on the founders to create an environment of safety where people feel they can ask the tough questions and then bring that information back and not be terrified, 'cause I think often it's fear that makes happy ears multiply. (laughs) Um, I, I do wanna ask you, I think kind of sales qualification is a big problem, and people still

6. 17:52 – 21:16

   Sales Qualification

   1. HSHarry Stebbings17:52

      suck at it. When you look at sales qualification today, how do you coach and train young sales reps, and what do you see is the biggest mistakes that people make in sales qualification today?

   2. MGMark Goldberger18:03

      I think the biggest mistake that people make from sales qualification standpoint is really not going deep enough. They'll ask discovery questions, and then that first level of discovery question has, has been completed, and they're already selling their solution. You need to go deep. You need to do some significant discovery where you get to secondary, third-level pain, and really let someone stew in that pain. I'll give you an example, Harry. Uh, you know, maybe you, uh, you're on a run this weekend and, uh, you scratched your arm, right? So I ask you about that and find out, "Hey, you know, yeah, it kinda stings." Um, "Maybe you need a Band-Aid. I don't know." Um, "Did-, you know, is there blood there?" Right? We start to dig in and find out, hey, you, you, you've got some serious pain, what happens if you don't address that pain right now? Well, maybe it'll get infected, and now instead of a Band-Aid, maybe you need antibiotics. And, you know, if you don't do that, what- what's the risk to you? Well, oh shit, maybe my arm's gonna fall off, or, or, uh, you know, I'm gonna have to get it amputated. Well, now this little scratch that, you know, you weren't really thinking about is a painful, festering wound that you really need to address. Hey, turns out I've got a Band-Aid, Harry, and I can, I can solve this for you right now. You have to be able to go deep on that pain and qualify what is it that this person or this organization needs, uh, from a solution standpoint to solve their pain? And if what they need is what you have, great, you've got that match, you should lean in. But if what they're looking for is something that's completely different than what you provide, uh, you need to be able to walk away. Again, it comes down to that lean pivot walk. You can do MEDDPICC. Um, MEDDPICC is, is incredibly enlightening from a qualification standpoint. Uh, you know, it's- it's- it's me and my team, and I don't want a MEDDPICC filled out, I actually want you to come in and we're gonna do an active discovery together and I'm gonna ask you about your deal. I'll ask you about this opportunity, what's going well. Harry, yeah?

   3. HSHarry Stebbings20:04

      Wh- what's MEDDPICC?

   4. MGMark Goldberger20:05

      What's MEDDPICC? Are you kidding me? Uh, MEDDPICC is, is, uh, is an incredibly important, um, qualification methodology. It's really how you understand, uh, the deal dynamics. So, uh, you can look up the definition afterward, but- but basically, uh, it's an acronym, and what we wanna find out are, you know, what are the metrics that are important? The economic buyer, the decision criteria, the decision process, paper process, uh, implicated pain. Not just pain, we want, we wanna understand the implications of it. Your, your competition, uh, as well as, uh, your champion, right? So these are, uh, the- that's what MEDDPICC stands for, and ultimately it's an active discovery. Harry, what do you like about this deal? What, what are- what gives you pause? Are there any red flags you've encountered? Okay, if I could give you a magic wand, Harry, what are the five things you, you would want to know or see happen here that, that you don't know, or haven't happened yet? Great. Well, now we've got an action plan for what to do, let's go out there and do it.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings21:07

      I love that, and I'm also very, very ashamed that I haven't heard of this before. Um, I love any acronym, you know. As a VC-

   6. MGMark Goldberger21:13

      (laughs)

   7. HSHarry Stebbings21:13

      ... it's what feeds my soul. Um, but I-

7. 21:16 – 22:51

   How to Create Urgency

   1. HSHarry Stebbings21:16

      I do wanna ask, okay, so w- we're going through this qualification process, and I am leaning in, okay? I'm excited for what you've got to sell, but I'm not quite converting. What do you do to create a sense of urgency in a sales cycle to get someone over the line?

   2. MGMark Goldberger21:31

      It comes down to pain, Harry. If you don't have enough pain, there's not a world where I can get you to have the urgency you need, short of discounting, and that kinda cheapens what we, what we all do. And so, what I would suggest is you gotta go back to first principles, you've gotta go back to discovery. And if you, Harry, don't have enough pain, I need to find someone else in the organization who has that burning pain. Uh, I need to find other people and build groundswell. Uh, again, this comes down to multi-threading and pipeline generation. You wanna get as high and as wide as you can in an organization, because the only thing better than having a champion is having multiple champions.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings22:12

      Does that mean that you would advise founders not to do discounting?

   4. MGMark Goldberger22:16

      I think that discounting is an expectation that's sort of built into, uh, procurement teams, it's built into the way that sales operates today. I- I think some organizations lean on it very heavily, uh, whereas others are able to- to sell the value and really hold the line more.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings22:33

      Mm-hmm.

   6. MGMark Goldberger22:33

      The more pain that you find and the more your solution matches with, uh, with the pain that you're solving for, the less you need to discount.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings22:41

      Can I ask, uh, a lot of people say, like, you know, "Hey, we'll give you the discount, or, you know, we'd love for you to give us a customer referral and allow you to use your logo."

8. 22:51 – 25:04

   Startups Using Prestigious Logos on Their Website

   1. HSHarry Stebbings22:51

      How do you as a startup ask a prestigious company, "Hey, can we use your logo for Validity?" What's the right way to do that without sounding kind of needy and startuppy?

   2. MGMark Goldberger23:02

      Yeah. So one, I don't, I don't ask for it, it's something that's a requirement. So, I- I think just- the- the assumed close there is really important. You know, as part of working with us, we- we're excited by, um, we wanna support our customers, uh, we love to show off the great companies that are working with us, uh, and so we're going to have your logo on our sales materials, on our website, that's- that's part of what we do. Um, "Oh, well we don't, we don't, we don't allow companies to do that." "Okay, well, it was, it was great chatting with you, uh, you know, good luck finding a solution that, that, that, uh, is going to solve for the pain that- that you have today." You have to have confidence around it, Harry.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings23:40

      Hmm. Do you feel enough people do have confidence in sales today?

   4. MGMark Goldberger23:44

      No, not at all.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings23:45

      Why is that?

   6. MGMark Goldberger23:48

      It's a great question. I think when you're, when you're a junior sales rep, when you don't have as many at-bats, you see things all the time that are new to you, and that's scary as a, as a, as a junior salesperson. "Hey, I'm encountering something I've never seen before. I don't know where this path will take me." When you've done hundreds of deals like I have and you don't have that much hair left on- on- on your head and, uh, what is there is- is graying quickly, you have what, um, what, uh, one of my mentors, Carlos De La Torre, he- he had a great colorful phrase for it. It's called scar tissue. Uh, and scar tissue is also known as pattern recognition. And the more pattern recognition you have, the better you're able to combat that because instead of living in your head and having to analyze every single decision and every single thing you do, you can actually live by instinct because you know and you've seen it before what the re- the proper response is.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings24:47

      You mentioned your mentor, that being Carlos. What do you think sales leaders can do to better mentor this younger, less confident cohort to be their best selves? I spoke to some of your mentees who said amazing things. What does great sales mentorship look like in required stage, you think?

9. 25:04 – 26:22

   The Key to Sales Mentorship

   1. HSHarry Stebbings25:04

   2. MGMark Goldberger25:04

      I think the key to mentorship is helping people see their blind spots, right? So I'll give you an example. I- I know you spoke to a, to a founder of a YC company who- who I mentor. Uh, he actually reached out to me in a cold LinkedIn message and- and it cut through the noise and I responded to him, and, uh, I've been excited to- to work with him and- and- and his team. Um, but he's not a sales professional, and so he's going through this deal cycle, uh, and- and, you know, I shared with him what- what are his blind spots? Well, he thinks he's got an opportunity here. What happens if, you know, it doesn't work out? Well, does he wanna have all of his eggs in that basket? No, you gotta build more pipeline, right? So I'm- I'm helping him as an example to see around his blind spots and ultimately, uh, to- to be able to- to close more opportunities. With other reps, with other people, uh, the dynamics can change. The buttons you need to push will change, but ultimately you're helping to- to make them more well-rounded. And- and I've, again, been fortunate with, uh, with Rich Liu, with Carlos De La Torre to have some great mentors, uh, who helped me to- to see my blind spots, uh, before they, uh, (laughs) before I got into a wreck. Uh, and ultimately it's allowed me to be a better manager as well.

10. 26:22 – 38:59

    Sales Hiring Tips - Part 2

    1. HSHarry Stebbings26:22

       I do wanna talk about kind of hiring this young talent, which as we said, needs more confidence and needs a lot of mentoring, but can still be brilliant. Uh, in terms of like hiring, we need to know what great looks like. And you said to me before that it's about the four H's. Success in sales is the four H's. I'm loving the acronyms today, Mark. Fuck it.

    2. MGMark Goldberger26:42

       (laughs)

    3. HSHarry Stebbings26:42

       I'm gonna go for it. What are the four H's?

    4. MGMark Goldberger26:44

       The four H's is something that I came up with that really is about saying the intangibles matter more than the tangibles. So first H, hunger. You need to want it more than anyone else. If you don't have that burning desire to succeed, that deep need to win, that insatiable yearning to compete, you probably won't win or compete or succeed. Hunger is an incredible motivator to get you through the inevitable challenges. Hustle. It's not enough to just be hungrier than everyone else. You need to be prepared to outwork them too. There's a great quote from John McMahon who was a tremendous sales leader and- and it sums it up well. "The difference between winners and losers is that losers practice until they get it right. Winners practice until they never get it wrong."

    5. HSHarry Stebbings27:37

       (laughs)

    6. MGMark Goldberger27:38

       Such an incredible quote from, you know, absolute sales genius. Uh, and also applies to sports. I- I always think about Tom Brady when I hear that. Someone who was not the most gifted athlete of all time, but certainly the greatest professional athlete of all time, uh, because he outworked everyone else. Watched more film than everyone, was in the gym earlier than everyone. No one would outwork him, and so he was able to rise when it mattered the most. Third H, humility. This is one that I will grant you a lot of salespeople don't have.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings28:09

       (laughs)

    8. MGMark Goldberger28:09

       They come in with bravado, um, but I actually think humility is the approach. You need to know that no matter how much success you've achieved, there's always someone who's done more and there are always areas you can improve. None of us are perfect. Uh, certainly not me. Uh, you need to recognize and embrace that. You need to use that to fuel your growth. The last H is heart. Uh, it should be table stakes, but instead it's more like special sauce. Think of it like grit, what it takes to be a champion, to be able to take a punch and keep fighting. There's a great book by Reed Hastings called No Rules Rules where he talks about talent density. I actually think as important or potentially more important than talent density is grit density, to have a team that just has a m- massive amount of grit.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings28:54

       Well, you mentioned there about hustle and the ability and desire to work harder than ev- anyone else and put the hours in. Uh, you said before to me you need to think outside the horse when it comes to hiring (laughs) sales teams. Think outside the horse. I kind of repeated this to myself and it didn't become clear to me. (laughs)

    10. MGMark Goldberger29:13

        (laughs)

    11. HSHarry Stebbings29:13

        So can you help me out here? What did you mean by this and how does that impact how you think about what you look for in the people you add to your sales teams?

    12. MGMark Goldberger29:21

        Yeah. I- I- I love this. Um, it's a little bit of a mixed metaphor, but- but let me tell you. So from a product standpoint at Ramp, we think of the legacy state as a horse and buggy, and do we want to build a faster horse and buggy or are we gonna build an automobile? On a slightly different vein, I've heard guests of yours talk about the expression in sales recruiting that fast horses run together, right? A players attract A players. But if you want 10X productivity, you need to think outside the horse. You need a race car, not a race horse.Let me give you an example here. If you have a 10X better product, and I hope you're investing in companies with 10X better products 'cause they're amazing, but if you have a 10X better product and a good traditional sales rep, the best you can achieve is a 10X outcome. It's a pretty good outcome.

    13. HSHarry Stebbings30:13

        Mm-hmm.

    14. MGMark Goldberger30:13

        But if you have a 10X better product and a 10X better sales rep, you can achieve a 100X outcome. And the best salespeople, in my experience, rarely fit the mold of what great salespeople should look like. And I'm not even talking about myself and, and my challenge getting into Silicon Valley. The best salespeople I've seen in the last several companies I've been in, none of them would be hired today based on the rubric that sales leaders have.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings30:40

        Why? What-

    16. MGMark Goldberger30:40

        You need to think outside the horse.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings30:42

        Why? What were they? What did they have? What did they not have that made them not fit in the rubric? What made them that way?

    18. MGMark Goldberger30:49

        (clicks tongue) So for one thing, they didn't come from the, the right companies, or they didn't have the right LinkedIn profile, or something about them would've canceled them out from even getting into the funnel, from a hiring standpoint. But the best salespeople will, will have those four H's, but they're also going to have creativity. Can you take duct tape, chewing gum, and a Zoom link and MacGyver a seven-figure closed-won deal, right? Like, that takes creativity. I've seen people do it. It's extraordinary. Not everyone has that. Are they adaptable? The two, uh, first salespeople at Ramp, the first one now leads half the sales and SDR teams. The second one is chief of staff to our CEO. Right? They're adaptable. You're hiring people not for what they can do today, but people who have enormous growth potential. That's how you get a 10X outcome.

    19. HSHarry Stebbings31:42

        Okay, so, uh, I, I, I love that in terms of the focus on 10X and thinking outside the horse, but how do we determine whether they're 10X? If we go to the interview process, say we've let them into the interview process despite not being the traditional fit, but they're in, we're sitting down with them, what questions do we ask? How do we know if they're 10Xs?

    20. MGMark Goldberger32:03

        Yeah, you, you need to get really intimate. You need to go deep in your interview questions. Get at the why, not just the what. So many, so many interview questions are, "What did you do next? Why, you know, w- what were you doing at that company? What deals did you close?" I wanna know the why. I wanna know the how. I wanna know and, and get, I wanna know them and get really deep, uh, to understand what makes them tick. What was the reasoning behind decisions they made, not just the performance? And a great way to test this is, is with a challenge. So I know different organizations think about this differently. I want them to sell to me not what they're selling today, but I want them to sell my solution back to me, because it shows if they can do research. It shows if they can synthesize that information. Uh, I know if, uh, if what they're saying is correct or not. Uh, I can see, uh, all of the gears turning, and I can test them as well in that setting and say, "Hey, I'm a CFO. Y- we scheduled this for 45 minutes. I actually only have 10. Go."

    21. HSHarry Stebbings33:06

        (laughs)

    22. MGMark Goldberger33:07

        Are you adaptable, right?

    23. HSHarry Stebbings33:08

        (laughs)

    24. MGMark Goldberger33:08

        Can you take a punch?

    25. HSHarry Stebbings33:09

        (laughs)

    26. MGMark Goldberger33:09

        Can you pivot really quickly?

    27. HSHarry Stebbings33:11

        God, that's, that's harsh, Mark. Uh, I, I, I guess-

    28. MGMark Goldberger33:13

        (laughs) It happens in real life, though. I'd much rather it happen in an interview than with a real prospect.

    29. HSHarry Stebbings33:20

        I've, I've had many sales leaders on the show say before, "I like them to sell a product that they've sold before and they know, because if they sell mine back to me, there's this massive asymmetric knowledge," one, and then-

    30. MGMark Goldberger33:32

        Sure.
11. 38:59 – 41:45

    How to Structure Comp for Junior Sales Reps

    1. HSHarry Stebbings38:59

    2. MGMark Goldberger38:59

       I think when it comes especially to early sales hires, there's not enough, uh, emphasis placed on- on equity in sales. They give out equity for- for other roles, and I think equity is- is often something that, uh, founders don't really think of when it comes to salespeople. They- they really only think about cash compensation, and I think that's the wrong approach. If you're hiring a 10X salesperson, someone who's going to be with you for a long time and drive an inordinate amount of impact in the organization, you should want to keep them for a long time. And they're going to be able to see the impact of, uh, their revenue generating activities on the company all the way up to, uh, raising funds. I'll give you an example of this. Uh, in my last company, uh, in May of 2020, uh, there was something called the COVID-19 pandemic that had started a couple months earlier.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings39:53

       I heard it. Yeah, it was- it was a big thing, right?

    4. MGMark Goldberger39:53

       Have you- you've heard of that, okay.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings39:55

       Yeah. (laughs)

    6. MGMark Goldberger39:56

       If- if you were selling Zoom at the time, it was a pretty easy job. But if you were selling business travel when no one was fucking traveling for business, Harry, uh, that was a headwind like no other. And I was transitioning from an IC role to a sales leadership role at that point. I had two opportunities left in my name and I managed to close both of them the last week of May 2020. One was the biggest deal in company history, one was within the top 10 as well. And I remember very clearly, really vividly, sitting in my backyard, I was on the all-hands call, that's what we were all doing at the time on- on a massive Zoom, and I remember feeling this incredible pride about not closing the deals and pride for myself and- and what I was able to accomplish, but I was proud for my teammates. I was proud for the people i- that are other stakeholders in the organization on other teams. I was proud for our leadership. I was proud for our investors who were messaging me all day, congratulations and- and- and thanks and all of that. Because what it did was it gave us a path forward in saying, "Hey, yeah, the road ahead is going to be tough, but we can accomplish anything." There's not a world where business travel will never come back, as an example. And we just need to get more creative and we need to find a path forward. And so when you have people who can drive an impact like that and put an entire team or company on their back, you want to reward them. Like cash is great. We all like cash. Sales reps are coin-operated, I get it. But you want them to be bought into the long-term vision as well, and it needs to be aligned with what the company cares about.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings41:39

       To hit those targets, they need to have targets in the first place. I know, praise to me for intellect.

12. 41:45 – 43:22

    How to Set a Quota

    1. HSHarry Stebbings41:45

       Um, how do you advise me on setting quota, especially in a year like this year where it- it's so fucking uncertain? I set a quota for the media company and we're like 250% over target now, like, I don't know, whatever, four months in. Clearly, I was just shit at setting quota, to be honest. I didn't know what was gonna happen. How do you advise founders on how to set quota accurately and efficiently?

    2. MGMark Goldberger42:08

       Yeah, you- you need to, in the early days, figure out what is the goal that the board is setting for you or that you're- you're sharing with the board, number one. Um...... is it realistic? Is it achievable? Work backward from that goal. So, working backward is something that I often teach to my teams. Okay, here's the goal that we're trying to get to. If we're just driving toward it in a, in a forward (laughs) direction, we may drive off a cliff, and if you don't want to end up like Thelma and Louise, then what you need to do is work backwards so you know where the cliffs are, you know where the landmines are, you know where the traps are, and you can find, hey, is there one path? Is there no path? Are there multiple paths to get there? And then, you can move forward. So if you work backward from that goal, regardless of how lofty it is, uh, you could figure out the way to achieve it. The other thing that's really critical here is pipeline generation. If you have a massive amount of pipeline, you're able to qualify deeply and make sure that you're going to hit the goals that you've set for yourself. This is something that I instill in my teams and I'm, I'm proud to say that this quarter, uh, the enterprise team at Ramp is trending to hit more than 300% of their quota, which is pretty insane.

13. 43:22 – 44:49

    Is traditional outbound sales dead?

    1. MGMark Goldberger43:22

    2. HSHarry Stebbings43:22

       Do you think traditional sales outbound is dead? And why does no one in sales want to do traditional outbound anymore?

    3. MGMark Goldberger43:28

       Traditional outbound is the most important thing, Harry, and if you're not doing it, uh, you are doing sales wrong. And the reason why is because pipeline is the most important thing if you wanna hit your quota, as we just established, and the way that you build pipeline is through outreach. Uh, the founder that I mentor, he PG'd into me. (laughs) He, he cold messaged me. Without that, I wouldn't be mentoring him. Uh, we have so many opportunities that are in our pipeline because we did the hard thing, we picked up the phone, we sent out an email, we were persistent with it, because usually it takes about five messages before someone is going to respond, uh, and ultimately we feel good about it because we're providing a solution for them that helps them. We're not trying to, you know, to sell them something that they don't need. We're actually helping them. And so if you think of it from that standpoint, uh, what you're doing when you're picking up the phone is, is something that's good for you and it's good for the people that you're calling.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings44:28

       Oof, so glad to hear. It's also like, you know, people run away from things that are painful and outbound can just be continuous punches in the face.

    5. MGMark Goldberger44:36

       Yes. (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings44:36

       And so I think it's nice to stay in the warm and cozy environment that is, you know, warm inbound. Uh, so I, I totally agree with you there. Going back to the kind of integration into the team, I think onboarding is just chronically poorly done.

14. 44:49 – 48:33

    Sales Onboarding Tips

    1. HSHarry Stebbings44:49

       How do you think about the right way to onboard new sales reps into your team, and how do you do it today?

    2. MGMark Goldberger44:55

       I think it needs to be a mix of structured learning and unstructured learning, so asynchronous learning. I think there needs to be a fair amount where they're going to be shadowing the best reps on calls. I think you need to dig in with them and, and go deep on a daily and weekly basis, so one-on-one coaching as well. And you need to make them drink from the fire hose. I know we try to, to limit that as, as companies get larger where, "Hey, we're going to give them this nice cushy ramp-up period," but you're going to find out a lot those first few weeks about their ability to run at pace if they can drink from the fire hose and start to synthesize that information. So I, I'm a big believer that the training wheels need to come off quickly. I do think there's benefit as well to giving them what I call T-ball opportunities. So if you're an enterprise, you don't want to risk some massive deal by giving it to the, to the guy who just, uh, or, or, or the woman who j- who just started. Uh, you need to be able to give them a smaller opportunity that's safe, uh, that's a safe place for them to iterate and figure out the motion before they're getting into these really large, complex deals.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings46:05

       Uh, what are the biggest red flags that you traditionally see in the first 30 days? I think, you know, people often say, "Hire fast, fire fast." I think we probably agree, hire slow, fire fast.

    4. MGMark Goldberger46:14

       (laughs)

    5. HSHarry Stebbings46:14

       If we agree with that, what are the big red flags of, like, okay, you need to step in and do something?

    6. MGMark Goldberger46:20

       Yeah. I recognize that not everyone is a, is a type A personality and gregarious, even in sales, but if someone is not asking a lot of questions, if they're not vocal in that, in that first month or two, to me that's a red flag that I want to at least dig into. It's not a sign, "Hey, we need to fire them 'cause they didn't ask questions." It's a matter of, "Hey, are they not asking questions because they understand everything? Bravo, brilliant, go forth and prosper. Or are they not asking questions 'cause they don't actually even know what questions to ask? And is it an aptitude issue or an attitude issue?" You need to understand that if you want to try to fix it, um, and in, in some cases you're, you're right. It's, it's hire slow and fire fast. If someone can't make it, the merciful thing to do is, is to let them go so that they can go to a place where they can be, uh, really, um, you know, powerful, efficient, and, and, and grow their career.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings47:15

       How do you see the real quality of a candidate? What I mean by that is like, I've had, you know, sales leaders on the show, say, before, you know, the person that sold Twilio to Uber when they were a tiny startup is probably the best deal in enterprise history now, and it transformed, obviously, from a startup to an enterprise deal. Um, but at the time, it was a nothing deal and it was probably done by a credit card almost. (laughs) Um, how, like, how relevant is deal attribution to you when determining quality of candidate? I'm just too interested there.

    8. MGMark Goldberger47:46

       It's why you need to ask those why questions, Harry. Uh, some companies are, are great at product-led growth and they're selling to an organization when it's an SMB. At what point did you sell to that organization? Was it a 10-person company that grew to a 10,000-person company? Or did you sell to them net new when they were 10,000 people? Did you sell wall to wall across the entire organization or was it a land and expand motion? Who else was involved with you in selling that deal? Right, you need to dig in to understand, uh, you know, did they do all of the work? Did they generate that deal themselves? Was it self-sourced or did an SDR make a cold call and that's how it happened, or did marketing generate the lead and it came inbound?

    9. HSHarry Stebbings48:30

       In terms of, like, digging in on the deal and the deal dynamics there,

15. 48:33 – 50:52

    Deal Reviews

    1. HSHarry Stebbings48:33

       I think deal reviews are so important, whether successful or, or not successful. How do you do deal reviews? How often do you do them? Who's invited? Who sets the agenda? I'm an early stage founder. Educate me.

    2. MGMark Goldberger48:47

       I think you should do a deal review for any deal that is going to be impactful toward you hitting your goal for that quarter, or that year, uh, period. And that means that you're probably doing more deal reviews than, than you're typically anticipating. You need to give time for that. If you're not digging in with your rep and understanding the deal dynamics, what could go wrong, what needs to happen, the various stakeholders, have you mapped the organization, and getting really, really into the details, then you're putting yourself at risk. Because that deal could slip. That deal could end up as a closed lost, and if you were counting on that, if you were committing that opportunity, man, that is an unpleasant place to be. Uh, I can tell you, it's, it has happened in my career a long time ago. When you commit a big deal and, and then it doesn't come through, um, that's a painful experience for everyone. You don't want to be living like that.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings49:41

       Can I ask you, in terms of product reviews, what are the biggest reasons that you lose today?

    4. MGMark Goldberger49:46

       Honestly, at- at- at Ramp, we're- we're not really losing (laughs) . Um, I- I know that sounds, uh, that sounds self-serving. We're- we're growing so fast. Um, we- we have an incredible product and I'm- I'm blessed to be able to, uh, you know, to- to sell this transformational, uh, platform that we have. In my experience, when- when deals, uh, when you do lose to competition, it- you can lose for a variety of reasons. Um, one, it could be price. And- and if you're selling something that's- to someone who's really price-sensitive and you haven't sold the value and articulated it well, uh, you can have someone come in and- and offer a product for free, or offer it for a really low price. And that company may- may grow to regret that decision, but ultimately, they might make that decision. You could get out-flanked. You have a champion, but you know what? They've got a champion that's more senior, uh, and so the more senior person who's got more influence in the organization is potentially going to win. There are a variety of reasons you could lose, but you need to map the organization. You need to understand the dynamics at play.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings50:48

       When you look at- And I'm- I'm sorry, I'm going off-schedule, but I'm too interested.

16. 50:52 – 53:01

    Selling to Startups vs Enterprise

    1. HSHarry Stebbings50:52

       When you look at Ramp and- and Brex, bluntly, the two biggest players in the market, um, in traditional mindsets, they sell to startups. I know this is not true, but like in tr- they sell to startups and they're fantastic at doing it. What have been the biggest challenges for you in taking that and transitioning it from a primary startup sales base to an enterprise, hey, with also for some of the biggest companies in America?

    2. MGMark Goldberger51:17

       What's really interesting is, I- I think I came to Ramp at an ideal time. There was an incredible amount of inbound interest from large enterprises when I, when I started at Ramp. So the market very much wants a solution like Ramp, uh, that hasn't really existed up-market before. You're right. Traditionally, modern spend management players have focused on SMBs, but when you think about the size of this market, payments alone, B2B payments, are $115 trillion. So if you get a very small slice of that market, that is a huge, huge TAM that you are going after. So number one, there's a lot of space for the different players. Number two, they're used to using really godawful, uh, UI and UX from companies like Concur. Sorry to pick on them. But if you walk into a room and you ask people, "Raise your hand if you enjoy doing an expense report," how many hands do you think are gonna go up? I- I'll- I'll give you a hint. It starts with Z and ends with RO, right?

    3. HSHarry Stebbings52:21

       (laughs) .

    4. MGMark Goldberger52:22

       There's- there's not a world where people enjoy doing expense reports. Why are we using dumb pieces of plastic and manually coding transactions, and having employees front money for their multi-billion dollar companies, versus automating that entire flow from transaction all the way through to ERP? Taking the time that someone would waste on an expense report on submitting it and reviewing it, automating all of that, and allowing the company to get a form of- of- uh, of rebate or benefit for the spend that they're making. Right? It's just a more sensible world.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings52:57

       Final one, I promise. Uh, I'm just firing like interest questions now.

    6. MGMark Goldberger53:00

       I love it

17. 53:01 – 54:55

    The Handoff to Customer Success

    1. MGMark Goldberger53:01

       (laughs) .

    2. HSHarry Stebbings53:01

       But it's like, when you do enterprise sales really well, it's this tailored boutique feeling for the customer. How do you do the handoff between sales rep and enterprise sales leader to customer success team, customer experience team, without it feeling like, "Oh, good luck. Off to mom."

    3. MGMark Goldberger53:19

       (laughs) Yeah. If you're doing it badly, it's, "Hey, I'm- I'm handing you off over here. See ya!" That's not the way it should go. You need to be introducing that implementation and that CS team, uh, before the deal is ever closed. Right? Implementation, onboarding, how we're going to make you successful as a customer is part of the sales process. And so you want to bring them in to be able to walk them through what the implementation plan looks like, what does success look like? What are you trying to solve for? Where are you at today and what does good look like? What are your goals? And once we're aligned on all of that, and the stakeholders, uh, there's some overlap here between the sales team and- and CS, now you feel more comfortable moving forward with us. And when you do, you already have this relationship formed with the team you're gonna be working with to make you successful.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings54:13

       Should CS also get commission if they're brought in pre-sales being concluded, and a part of that closing mechanism?

    5. MGMark Goldberger54:21

       That's a, that's a great question. I think that typically, they end up being compensated in a, in a slightly different way, which is that CS often, in most organizations, are going to be compensated based on, uh, adoption. So- uh, at least in- in companies that are based on usage. So, uh, you know, are you seeing that adoption curve? Are you seeing full adoption? Uh, so that's- that's how they're going to get paid. And- and so ultimately, by helping to bring in a deal, uh, and- and seeing that adoption happen, uh, they are going to be compensated for it.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings54:54

       Mark,

18. 54:55 – 59:06

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. HSHarry Stebbings54:55

       I've just so enjoyed this. I'm gonna do a quick fire-round with you now, so I'm gonna fire questions at you, very much like I have been doing for the last hour to be honest. But, you know-

    2. MGMark Goldberger55:03

       (laughs)

    3. HSHarry Stebbings55:03

       ... I'm gonna call it a quick fire-round 'cause I'm good at marketing, um, and you're gonna give me immediate thought. So let's start with, what sales tactics have not changed over the last five years?

    4. MGMark Goldberger55:14

       The fundamentals. Cold calling, cold emailing, that pipeline generation, qualification and champion building, getting to the EV. It'll never change.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings55:24

       W- What sales tactics have died a death?

    6. MGMark Goldberger55:26

       It pains me to say it, but I think in-person meetings. And it's not that it's died, but I think it's on life support. Video conferencing, digital whiteboarding, sales intelligence tools, they're- they're all built so we can collaborate and be productive in a remote first world, but it can sometimes create this soul-crushing reality where human interaction becomes transactional instead of deep.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings55:50

       Really? So even for large six-figure enterprise deals, human interaction in person is not required?

    8. MGMark Goldberger55:57

       It hasn't been required the last few years. Uh, I- I- I miss it, I love it, I will take every opportunity to meet clients where they are, uh, but I think it's a dying art.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings56:08

       Does the CEO always have to be involved in sales to some extent? If you have Amazon moving to, you know ... Um, (laughs) that's a bold one, but Amazon moving to Ramp with 500,000 employees, does Eric still need to be getting on a jet?

    10. MGMark Goldberger56:24

        I think so. I think with any kind of really large, uh, company trajectory changing deal, you want not just the CEO but you want the entire executive team to be involved.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings56:36

        Yeah. What would you say is the biggest mistake founders make when hiring sales teams?

    12. MGMark Goldberger56:41

        I think, again, it's- it's about trying to, uh, hire people who fit inside a box with their preconceived notions. I think every time, that's going to end up biting you in the butt.

    13. HSHarry Stebbings56:51

        What one piece of advice, on the flip side of the table, would you give to a sales leader starting a new role today?

    14. MGMark Goldberger56:58

        Recruit well. Always look to raise the bar. Don't settle for B players. Uh, I've made that mistake myself. Um, I now have a rule which is that each subsequent hire has to raise the bar for the entire team. If they don't have the potential to be as good or meaningfully better than everyone else in seat, why are you hiring them?

    15. HSHarry Stebbings57:18

        What would you most like to change in the world of sales today, Mark?

    16. MGMark Goldberger57:21

        The perception of it. There's science behind great sales. It's not some parlor trick. Sales is often deeply misunderstood by those in other roles, and I think if you step back and look at all of the process behind it, there's real science.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings57:36

        How do you maintain morale when goals are missed in a sales team? It's tough, 'cause you- you wanna maintain morale but you don't wanna create a culture of accepting failure.

    18. MGMark Goldberger57:45

        You have to start with understanding why it happened. Who's responsible? How do you ensure it never happens again? And the answer, inevitably, is pipeline coverage, and whose responsibility is that, Harry? Everyone's.

    19. HSHarry Stebbings57:57

        Hmm. Yeah, no, totally agree with you. Um, final one, my friend. What one company sales strategy have you been most impressed by recently?

    20. MGMark Goldberger58:05

        It's a little bit self-serving, but honestly, we're- we're executing and- and firing on all cylinders at Ramp from- from SMB through enterprise. Uh, the company was recently named the most innovative company in North America by Fast Company. We just announced for the last year we hit 400% revenue growth. Uh, I think what we're doing is- is really extraordinary, and, uh, and I hope more people will take a look.

    21. HSHarry Stebbings58:30

        Other than Ramp, Mark. Nice try.

    22. MGMark Goldberger58:32

        (laughs)

    23. HSHarry Stebbings58:32

        Uh, other than Ramp, who are you impressed by?

    24. MGMark Goldberger58:35

        I think anyone who's executing right now and exceeding their goals, outside of generative AI, which I think (laughs) has, uh, a very unique tailwind, uh, they're doing something right. Uh, Starlink's performance has been especially impressive given they fly under the radar, which is kinda odd for a company that dots the skies.

    25. HSHarry Stebbings58:53

        I- I love that and I- I totally agree with you. Also, the most miraculous sales technique there, my friend (laughs) .

    26. MGMark Goldberger59:00

        For sure.

    27. HSHarry Stebbings59:00

        Uh, Mark, this has been such a joy to do. Thank you so much for doing this, and I've loved having you on.

    28. MGMark Goldberger59:05

        My pleasure, Harry. Thanks so much.

Episode duration: 59:06