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Nicolai Tangen: Managing the Largest Sovereign Wealth Fund in the World | E1122

Nicolai Tangen is the CEO of Norges Bank Investment Management, the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world with $1.55 Trn in assets, owning on average, 1.5% of every listed company. Tangen was previously Chief Executive Officer and Chief Investment Officer in AKO Capital, which he founded in 2005. Prior to this, Tangen was a partner and senior analyst at Egerton Capital and an equity analyst at Cazenove & Co. ----------------------------------------------- Timestamps: (00:00) Intro (00:31) Childhood Background (01:21) Discovering a Passion for Finance (03:50) Biggest Needle-Moving Moment (04:42) Advice on Pursuing an MBA for the Next Generation (05:06) Shift to CEO Role (07:05) Market Expectations Amid Lackluster Returns (08:51) Investing in Unchanging Favorites (11:02) What’s on Nicolai’s Mind? (11:56) Challenges in Long-Term Investing (14:24) Praises for Sovereign Wealth Fund Approaches (15:40) Key Economic Metrics for CEOs (19:12) Future of Data in Central Banking (20:08) Nicolai’s Content Consumption (22:32) US Tech Firm Concentration Insights (25:35) Qualities of The Best Investors (26:48) Evaluating Regulatory Concerns in Europe (28:25) "When Will NBIM Hold Bitcoin?" (29:43) Psychology & Confidence in Investing (30:47) Climate Costs & Investment Strategies (32:24) Why People Are Investing in Norway (33:18) Work & Life Balance Insights (34:27) Fatherhood & Parenting (35:19) Building a Culture of Open Communication (36:31) Most Memorable Meetings with CEOs (40:50) Quick-Fire Round ----------------------------------------------- In Today’s Episode with Nicolai Tangen We Discuss: From Religious Town in Norway to Leading the Largest Sovereign Wealth Fund: What was Nicolai like as a child? How would his parents have described him? Why does Nicolai think that loners have a greater chance/ability to make money? What does Nicolai know now that he wishes he could tell a 20-year-old Nicolai? The Top 10 Questions: 1. US Tech Firm Concentration: Is Nicolai concerned by the concentration of enterprise value in US tech firms? Have incumbents ever been as strong as they are today? 2. Impact of AI: What does Nicolai believe the impact of AI will be on society and productivity? What is his approach to investing in it moving forward? 3. Bitcoin: Why does Nicolai not want to hold Bitcoin? Why does he not understand it? 4. China: What would need to happen for China to be investable? How will the China situation play out? 5. Europe: Does Nicolai believe Europe is so far behind the US? Why? What can we do to improve? 6. Climate Change: How does Nicolai approach investing in climate? What works? What does not? 7. Sam Altman: Would Nicolai invest in Sam’s new $7Trn project? What are some of Nicolai’s biggest lessons from the time he has spent with Sam? 8. Investment Psychology: How does Nicolai retain a neutral investor psychology? How does he not get too up when doing well and too low when not doing well? 9. Investing Lessons: What are Nicolai’s biggest investment hits and misses? What did he learn from them? 10. The Future: Why is Nicolai so optimistic about the future? What is he concerned about? How will we overcome our greatest challenges? ----------------------------------------------- Subscribe on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/3j2KMcZTtgTNBKwtZBMHvl?si=85bc9196860e4466 Subscribe on Apple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-twenty-minute-vc-20vc-venture-capital-startup/id958230465 Follow Harry Stebbings on Twitter: https://twitter.com/HarryStebbings Follow Norges Bank on Twitter: https://twitter.com/NorgesBank Follow 20VC on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/20vchq Follow 20VC on TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@20vc_tok Visit our Website: https://www.20vc.com Subscribe to our Newsletter: https://www.thetwentyminutevc.com/contact ----------------------------------------------- #20vc #harrystebbings #venturecapital #startup #founder #business #podcast #NicolaiTangen #ceo #norgesbank

Nicolai TangenguestHarry Stebbingshost
Mar 4, 202446mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 0:31

    Intro

    1. NT

      Organisations which make fast decisions are generally better. I have a countdown clock in my office showing how many days I've got left of my job because it's a five-year job. Now, why do I have that? Is it because I don't like my job? No, I love my job. The thing is that when I got somebody in my office who says, "Over the next three months we could do it," I say, "Hey listen to that, look at this, I've got 580 days left. We need to hurry up."

    2. HS

      Nikolai, I'm so excited for this. I've watched so many of your shows before so thank you so much for joining me today.

    3. NT

      Well, thanks for inviting me.

    4. HS

      I wanna start with a little bit on you. So it's a bit of a

  2. 0:31 – 1:21

    Childhood Background

    1. HS

      weird one, what were you like as a child?

    2. NT

      I think I was unfortunately pretty normal and, uh, um, slightly introverted, read a lot. I didn't have any friends. My brother was really worried that I would perhaps never have any proper future given that I didn't socialize so much.

    3. HS

      Did you feel that you didn't have friends? Like I didn't have any friends either and then-

    4. NT

      No, I didn't need... I had my, I had my books. I did, I just didn't n- need that many friends. So my friends kind of came later in life.

    5. HS

      Did you always have this self-assured confidence? Like I was-

    6. NT

      (laughs)

    7. HS

      No, I'm being serious like I didn't have any friends-

    8. NT

      No, I think-

    9. HS

      ... and I felt like a loner and it was hard.

    10. NT

      Yeah, I thought it was pretty good to be a loner actually, um, and, uh, yeah, so I probably had a bit of confidence there.

    11. HS

      I love that. Um, did you enjoy school?

    12. NT

      Loved it.

    13. HS

      You did?

    14. NT

      Really nice, yeah.

    15. HS

      Were you good at school?

    16. NT

      I was pr-... I was, I was quite good. I was quite good.

    17. HS

      How would your teachers describe you?

    18. NT

      Uh, studious, uh, concentrated, uh, you know, probably ambitious.

    19. HS

      (laughs)

  3. 1:21 – 3:50

    Discovering a Passion for Finance

    1. HS

      when did you find the love of finance?

    2. NT

      Oh, that was early because I was pretty keen on making money, right. So you know what I think? I think a lot of lone- loners, they are keen to make money to show the world, right?

    3. HS

      Yeah.

    4. NT

      And-

    5. HS

      I never felt good enough and so it was like the way of proving that I was worth something.

    6. NT

      I think inferiority complexes should be really celebrated. I think it's a huge thing. That, that is what drive us, pretty much all of us. And, um, so I wanted to make some money and I started to, uh, you know, collect the empty bottles. You know in Scandinavia you get refunds for these kind of things, so I sold flowers at restaurants, I did all these kind of things to make a bit of money.

    7. HS

      I love that. When did you make your first real money?

    8. NT

      (laughs) Well, that was really late actually because, uh, I didn't in my first job which was in the city and I did when I joined the hedge fund and that was, uh, you know, in like '97.

    9. HS

      How old were you then?

    10. NT

      So I was, I was, uh, I was mo- 32 probably, 35. Between 32 and 35.

    11. HS

      Did it make you happy?

    12. NT

      Um, it g- it gives you some freedom to do what you want. So what I did when I had made some money was to take time off and go back to university and I s- spent a couple of years studying art history and that made me happy. So I'm... It's not the money that makes you happy but it's just the kind of freedom it gives you.

    13. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    14. NT

      But it wasn't, but it wasn't an enormous amount but I had enough to take a couple of years break.

    15. HS

      Yeah. I think a lot of people always say, "When I have this, I will be happy."

    16. NT

      Absolutely.

    17. HS

      "And when I have that I'll be happy." Did you-

    18. NT

      I was-

    19. HS

      ... have that mindset?

    20. NT

      I was a total f- fallacy. I- is if you... The thing is that if you're not happy now you will never be happy. You know, they, they have this study where they ask, uh, students at Harvard, "So, do you have a good life?" And she's like, "Uh, no, I haven't got a particularly good life just now but, uh, but I will soon. It's just that now I just have got a new job." They ask the same people 10 years later and she's like, "No, I'm not so happy now but I will be soon," and 30 years later. And the thing is that if you're not happy you will never be happy.

    21. HS

      Hmm. And so for you, when you think about like going back to that child who was a little bit of a loner, did that change over time? And I hope that's not okay for me to ask.

    22. NT

      (laughs) It is, it d- it did change me a little time.

    23. HS

      And this is not the schedule that we planned, I'm just, I'm super intrigued.

    24. NT

      I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what happened there but, uh, I just became a bit more social and, uh, slightly more outgoing. Um, you know, I was, uh, I grew up in a part of Norway which was really religious and I was-

    25. HS

      Which part of Norway?

    26. NT

      Southern part of Norway is a very religious part of Norway. And then I-

    27. HS

      I don't know if you know, I'm from Skien.

    28. NT

      Right and is that not so religious?

    29. HS

      Not so religious.

    30. NT

      No. (laughs)

  4. 3:50 – 4:42

    Biggest Needle-Moving Moment

    1. NT

      out a bit more.

    2. HS

      What do you think was the biggest needle moving moment in your career? You mentioned the entry into hedge funds there.

    3. NT

      Yeah, I think it was when I started, uh, at Wharton which is a US university specializing in finance, 'cause that really was a different type of ambitious, uh, ambitions. And, um, you know, Norway is the kind of place where you're not supposed to be, uh, you know, too ambitious, at least not overtly. Then you get to America and it's just like, "Hey, we want to conquer the world," and you are allowed to say it when you are like 22.

    4. HS

      (laughs)

    5. NT

      And I remember in class this guy said, uh, "You know, what should I do? What should I... How should I succeed?" And he's just like, "Yeah, but what do you want to do?" "I just want to conquer the world." And everybody applauded. And for me it was just like a complete unreal situation.

    6. HS

      Did you adopt that mindset from that?

    7. NT

      No, I haven't had... (laughs) I don't really have that mindset but there was, there was an element of that which I thought was pretty

  5. 4:42 – 5:06

    Advice on Pursuing an MBA for the Next Generation

    1. NT

      cool.

    2. HS

      So for a child of your own or for a young person asking you for advice, what would you say to them about doing an MBA?

    3. NT

      Well, personally I'm not a big believer in MBAs. Uh, ex- ex- except from if you have some kind of job and need to change direction and you feel that, you know, "I'm in the wrong place, I just need to completely do something else," then an MBA is good. It's good as a kind of shifting mechanism. But in itself I think, uh, not so necessary.

  6. 5:06 – 7:05

    Shift to CEO Role

    1. NT

    2. HS

      When you decided to join, you know, um, you know, your role now, was it an easy decision to leave your prior in which you started and, and join as CEO?

    3. NT

      Yeah, it wasn't so difficult actually because I was on my way to do something else. I had started a hedge fund. Uh, I, I worked, uh, been running it for 15 years. The learning curve was a bit, was a bit flatter and I had decided to kind of move on, leave, pass on the firm to the next generation and then go back to university and study. And then this job came up in a sovereign wealth fund and I thought, "You know what? This is just incredible." Combining my love for asset management, uh, organizational development and then do something good for the country. So that was-That was not so difficult. But it wa- it wasn't easy to get the job, right. Um-

    4. HS

      What was the pro- like, what is the process to be CEO-

    5. NT

      Well, you have to ap-

    6. HS

      ... of the largest software fund?

    7. NT

      Well, y- y- you apply and, uh, you go through a lot of interviews. Um, and then of course, the local media was a bit skeptical because nobody knew me, and there here is this unknown guy coming from London and it's very prestigious position in the country, and it's not so... Uh, yeah, it just wasn't so straightforward.

    8. HS

      Did the enormity of the position hit you? Like, as we said, it is, you know, the largest in the world.

    9. NT

      I don't think it's really ever hit me because it's, uh, it's a very large fund. But I don't think about, I don't think about the size of it because the size is kind of (laughs) unreal. So-

    10. HS

      Do you know what I love is, on your website you have the ticker.

    11. NT

      Yeah.

    12. HS

      And it, I mean, it's, it's insane.

    13. NT

      Yeah, it's insane. So it's, so it's-

    14. HS

      It reminds me of the US debt.

    15. NT

      Absolutely. So it's, uh, we ha- there is a ticker on the website, it shows the, um, the, the real, real time value of the fund, and I felt before I joined, it's just like, "You know what? This is not a good idea. This makes us very short term in our thinking. We should get th- this away now." If we had taken that away from the website, there would have been a revolution in the country. They would have hated it. It's the most watched number in the country. It's very, very important. And, uh, and it's k- and it's kind of cool, you know? What it also does, it, it just, um, shows how transparent the fund is. We've no secrets. Everything is open, everything's, everything is out

  7. 7:05 – 8:51

    Market Expectations Amid Lackluster Returns

    1. NT

      there.

    2. HS

      I, I've watched many of your interviews where you interviewed some and then some where you've been interviewed, and you've said before we might have some lackluster returns actually for the next few years because of the, you know, environment that we're in.

    3. NT

      Totally.

    4. HS

      Given the importance of that number to the country and it being the most watched number, is there a lot of pushback? Is there a lot of anger about, uh, a very kind of open, "Listen, there will be lackluster returns and that's what it is"?

    5. NT

      No, I think they like the fact that we do some, uh, expectation management. It's important to manage expectations. I truly think there will be much tougher times ahead. I think it'll be difficult to generate returns, and we need... and everybody needs to know that.

    6. HS

      So the show has done well because I managed to ask very stupid questions and get away with it. I'm gonna proceed in this vein. Why is it gonna get so much tougher? A lot of people are feeling optimistic.

    7. NT

      Yeah, they are. And, um, because some, uh, you know, I personally, I think it would take longer for rates to come down. I think there are geopolitical tensions which add to inflation.

    8. HS

      Why will it take longer for rates to come down?

    9. NT

      Because there are some underlying, uh, there are some underlying wage increases, uh, and then when companies have to pay higher wages, they offset that by increasing their own selling prices.

    10. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    11. NT

      And then you have some climate effects, you know, there are worse harvests. Uh, you have some geopolitical effects. There is more, uh, producing things close to home, which is more expensive. So you just have a lot of things like that pulling in the same direction.

    12. HS

      Okay, and so these kind of underlying inflationary pressures create a challenging environment going forward. I'm sorry to ask crap question. Is that like a three-year period? Is that like a five-year period in your mind? When does that change?

    13. NT

      I think it could last for quite some time.

    14. HS

      Like 10 years?

    15. NT

      (smacks lips) I don't know. But, um, I think the next five years could be, could be much more difficult.

  8. 8:51 – 11:02

    Investing in Unchanging Favorites

    1. NT

    2. HS

      Hmm. How does one change their investing as a result of that?

    3. NT

      By becoming more long term, by focusing in on, uh, quality companies which can compound, by looking for market share gainers, and by becoming more contrarian. So taking the opportunities that comes from volatility.

    4. HS

      I always love Warren Buffett's investing style, which is, you know, "I invest in things that don't change over time." People will always love, like, a Mars bar or ketchup or whatever that may be.

    5. NT

      Or a Coca-Cola.

    6. HS

      Or a Coca-Cola. When you think about, like, market share gainers, what, what does that mean to you? Because, like, one would say Google, but some would say ChatGPT, you've spoken to some, challenges that.

    7. NT

      Yeah, I think...

    8. HS

      Just to-

    9. NT

      So I'm not really thinking about technology because that's a bit too complicated for me. I mean, that's... because that changes so fast and God knows who's going to be the winner in, in AI or chips or these kind of things. I'm more thinking about kind of steady-eddy, you know, market share gainers, like a cosmetics company which takes half a percent market share every year or things like that.

    10. HS

      Does that not get threatened by technology too? Is the world not becoming-

    11. NT

      Well, some, uh, s- uh, I think some companies and some products are not threatened by technology. I think, for instance, look at cosmetics. You know, women have painted themselves in the face for 2,000 years. Do you think they will, do you think they will stop? Do you think all women will say, "Listen, now we're going to have a level playing field. Nobody's ever going to use any cosmetics"? I just don't think they are, and I think it's tied into, it's tied into vanity. Uh, men are increasingly vain.

    12. HS

      I agree, but, uh, sorry.

    13. NT

      So, so, so, so I don't think... So for instance, there I don't think technology will move it. Now, an elevator company, are we going to invent a way th- the way w- we need to move up in a building? I don't, I just don't think so. I think we'll always n- need elevators.

    14. HS

      I agree on the elevator side. I, I got nothing for you on that one. On, on the makeup, you know, TikTok Shop enables creators to create their own brands.

    15. NT

      Oh, totally, absolutely.

    16. HS

      And that d- being a really unbundle so much of LVMH or any of the large providers' market share.

    17. NT

      Uh, yeah, well, I just think that when the brands become pretty big, they will be acquired by the very large companies. And you see it, for instance, in the spirits business or, you know, let's say you're a good-looking actor, you launch your, your, uh, tequila brand. Well, uh, you know, uh, Los Amigos or whatever it's called, and, uh, when it reached a billion, uh, somebody's

  9. 11:02 – 11:56

    What’s on Nicolai’s Mind?

    1. NT

      going to buy it.

    2. HS

      You know, I watched, uh, one of your shows, I think it was at Davos where you were interviewed and you said, "Yeah, the question I like to ask is, what's on your mind?"

    3. NT

      Mm-hmm.

    4. HS

      And I was like, "Why don't we turn the tables? Wha- what's on your mind?"

    5. NT

      (laughs) You know, just now I, um, uh, I've been thinking a lot about, uh, uh, we must not make small problems big. You know, there are some really small problems in life and we are just making them big; but equally, there are some really big problems and we must not make them small.

    6. HS

      What do you think are the small problems?

    7. NT

      Well, ju- just like the everyday small tiddly things which take up too much time, too much of your thinking.... uh, you know, not important things. You should not be spending time on it. And there are some big things. I mean, climate, big issue, very big issue. And for sure, we are not spending enough time on it.

    8. HS

      Okay. With that in mind, how do you think about how you should reshape your time then?

    9. NT

      Um, more thinking on the important things.

    10. HS

      And so-

    11. NT

      Uh, being more conscious about how

  10. 11:56 – 14:24

    Challenges in Long-Term Investing

    1. NT

      you spend your time.

    2. HS

      Is the time horizon challenging for you? 'Cause you invest along such a long-time horizon.

    3. NT

      So, time is really interesting, and I think, I think it's really funny. So let's say you are 20 years old. You are in such a hurry, okay? Like, three months, it's ete- eternity. Now, y- you get older, I'm 57, I'm soon about to die, suddenly I'm so patient. W- why? I mean, I, I haven't got that many years left compared to a 20-year-old, yet I'm much more patient than this young person. Why is that? It makes no sense. So your time horizon changes when it shouldn't.

    4. HS

      (laughs)

    5. NT

      You know? It should be opposite.

    6. HS

      Are you scared of dying?

    7. NT

      No. Absolutely not. But the thing, but the thing about time, I think, is just really interesting. I don't think, we haven't really nailed the whole concept of time. And no, why are you more impatient when you are 20? Well, uh, you know, three months is a higher percentage of a life than when you are, uh, 50, right? You've seen, you've seen longer time, you've seen that it pays off to be long term. But, uh-

    8. HS

      Absolutely. We-

    9. NT

      ... if I were to tell myself something, you know, my 20-year-old self, uh, what should I, what should I, what should I learn? I'd be, you know, "You got so much time," you know. "Just, uh, think more long term."

    10. HS

      Speed of execution, we're always told, is like the biggest difference between those that win and those that don't.

    11. NT

      Yeah.

    12. HS

      And with that in mind, I very much think that time is crucial and I have to get as much out of every single day.

    13. NT

      Yeah, but that's different from thinking long term. So time of execution. (clears throat) I completely agree. Organizations which make fast decisions are generally better organizations.

    14. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    15. NT

      I have a countdown clock in my office showing how many days I've got left of my job, because it's a five-year job. I've got 580 days left.

    16. HS

      580 days?

    17. NT

      Yeah. Now, why do I have that? Is it because I don't like my job? No, I love my job. But the thing is that when I got somebody in my office who says, "Yeah, we can do this next, uh, w- over the next three months we could do it," I said, "Hey, listen to that. S- look at this. I got 580 days left. We need to hurry up." And they say, "Oh yeah, oh gosh, yeah, you only have 580 days left, we need to do it straightaway." So you completely change the mindset, and you get this urgency into thinking.

    18. HS

      Do you think that five-year tenure is a good thing or a bad thing? 'Cause doesn't it prevent long-term thinking? Like if you-

    19. NT

      Well, I think it's good and bad. I mean, you can, you can, um, you know, ap- you can, uh-

    20. HS

      Apply again.

    21. NT

      ... apply again, right? So you can potentially have two. Um, so, um, I, I think it has got positive things and negative things. I think on balance it's probably neutral.

    22. HS

      Yeah. Do you feel the pressure?

    23. NT

      I think I would've felt the pressure even if I had a tenure.

  11. 14:24 – 15:40

    Praises for Sovereign Wealth Fund Approaches

    1. NT

    2. HS

      I get that. No, I totally get that. Wh- when you think about, like, how others in sovereign wealth funds do, and engage in what they do, who do you respect and why?

    3. NT

      There are a lot of very good f- funds out there, right? You have the Canadians.

    4. HS

      Yeah.

    5. NT

      Uh, they are, they are very strong, they are long-term thinkers. They have good institution, good organizations. You have something like GIC in Singapore, it's very strong. I would say what I admire with funds is when they are transparent. Uh, th- the Norwegian fund is the most transparent fund out there, and I can say that because we, we won the awards for being the most transparent fund in the world, so I'm not even bragging. It's just a fact. (laughs)

    6. HS

      (laughs) So Norwegian. (laughs)

    7. NT

      (laughs) But it's good, but it's good, it's good to be transparent. Everybody is on the same page. Every know, everybody knows, uh, you know, what's the agenda, what we're driving for, wh- what we are trying to achieve. And it, and it establishes trust.

    8. HS

      I don't know, and it seems everyone has the same IQ and EQ, and actually sometimes people need to be, uh, encouraged along and maybe not know the whole truth, because I don't think actually a lot of people are as, as good as we give them the credit for.

    9. NT

      Well, I dis- I beg to disagree here. I think the more people know the truth, the better it is. The more, uh, the more everybody know all the facts, the

  12. 15:40 – 19:12

    Key Economic Metrics for CEOs

    1. NT

      better it is.

    2. HS

      When you think about... I, I love this, you asked it with, I think it's Jane, the CEO of Citi, and, and you said, "If you were to really have one or two numbers which measure the health of the economy, which one or two are they for you, Jane?" And I was like, "That's a good question." If you have that same question, how do you respond to that?

    3. NT

      Well, so what I look at is how, um, how much fair and how much greed is there out there. Now, how do you measure that? Well, fair you can measure in, in, you know, in the VIX Index, the Volatility Index, you can measure, um... Well, for instance, u- during COVID you can measure it in (clears throat) the amount of media on, on the bad news, uh, to which extent, uh, specialists disagree with each other, what are the doomsday scenarios and so on. So you can, you can get a gauge for the fear. And gee, did we have a lot of fear at the beginning with COVID when we didn't know what it was. So I think that's, that's not so difficult to measure, but it's an important one to keep track on. But then, then, um, you know, greed, how do you measure that? That's much more difficult to, to gauge, and frothiness, and to try to get your handle on that, that's really important. And so I'm wondering now (clears throat) , you know, over the last two, three days, the share prices of ARM has gone up, you know, 150% or whatever it is, I mean, something very, very high number. And what is that? Is that some kind of blow, blowout, uh, you know, peak of sentiment for tech shares, or what is it? I, I don't know, but I'm, I'm, I'm thinking about that.

    4. HS

      How do you think about measuring greed, then?

    5. NT

      Well, you just have to look at what's going on in society. When, when you feel really stupid because you haven't made 100% return in the stock market because all your friends have, then you have to start to think. It's just when things start to look really, really simple, then, then there is too much greed, because it's just not simple to make money.

    6. HS

      I totally agree. I'm just forever, I'm forever stuck 'cause I've always looked at NVIDIA and gone, "God, that's overpriced." And I've done that for the last year. (laughs) ... and I've been proved thoroughly wrong, clearly, in my e- expectation that it's overpriced. And so I, I agree and I get you. Do you think greed is bad?

    7. NT

      No, not per se. I mean, greed is... Greed is a negative word for, you know, aspiration and wishes for a better life. And so the word greed is a negative word. But the wish to create things, to make the be- the, the world a better place, all these kind of things, that's, that's positive. It's a positive drive. I mean, it's, it's, it's cool that people want to establish things and make things and show the world.

    8. HS

      What's the biggest constraint that you have because of your position that you would like to remove, and what would you do if it were removed?

    9. NT

      Yeah. I don't, I don't feel we have much constraints. We, you know, we are a large fund, we are a, we're a public sector fund. Um, for the moment, we cannot invest in private equity-

    10. HS

      Yeah.

    11. NT

      ... which I think it's... which I, uh... We- and we now have this political discussion, and, and we have, um, arguments back and forth with, with the Ministry, so, uh, so we'll see what comes out of that.

    12. HS

      How does decision-making work around that?

    13. NT

      It's a political process, so the Ministry is asking us for advice, i.e. the board of, of the Central Bank. Then they give advice, then they, then they kind of go through the political process and discuss it with the politicians, and then they come back with a white paper. So it's a, it's a very thorough and, and really solid and impressive, uh, work.

  13. 19:12 – 20:08

    Future of Data in Central Banking

    1. NT

    2. HS

      You said central banks there, and I saw on one interview that you did, you said you hope that central banks change the type of data that they use to inform their thinking. I thought, "How so?" I wasn't really aware of what data they specialize in, like we use today, and how would you like that changed?

    3. NT

      Yeah, so I, I need to be a bit careful when I talk about central banks, because, you know, we are situated in the middle of central banks. So when I talk about central banks, I never talk about the Norwegian Central Bank. But I think it's interesting to look at the central banks, and I have, uh, previously said that I thought they were a bit slow to increase rates. Now, I think that's pretty, uh... that's the opinion that many people have, and they have admitted it themselves, so I don't think it's particularly controversial to say. And to me, the question is just like, what kind of alternative data do you use? Do you speak to the CEO of companies and ask them what they esp- expect for the next 12 months? And historically, they haven't necessarily done that. I think they probably will do it or are already doing it more, and, and perhaps that will improve the decision-making.

  14. 20:08 – 22:32

    Nicolai’s Content Consumption

    1. NT

    2. HS

      You know, I, I, I spoke to a couple of mutual friends, and they said that your content consumption is extremely voracious. And you mentioned, you know, being, uh, you know, so engaged in reading when you were young. What does your content consumption look like today, Nikolai? You have to be across so many things.

    3. NT

      The important thing with learning is that you need to be curious and you need to learn as many different things as you can from as many different type of people. So when you look in... when you look at the social psychology studies on this, the more different type of friends you have, the more innovative and the more creative you become. Very, very important. Now, I consume a lot of newspapers, I do, I listen to podcasts, um, and I also learn a lot from our own podcast, because it forces me to prepare for various industries and various CEOs and so on, and it's a very, very important part of learning.

    4. HS

      Do you do the prep yourself?

    5. NT

      I get help from the great analysts who I work with, but I also do, I also prep myself. So I sit during the weekends and, and work. So I think it's, I think it's really, really cool, right? So-

    6. HS

      It's the best way to learn, right?

    7. NT

      Oh, totally, totally.

    8. HS

      I learn so much from

    9. NA

      Mm-hmm.

    10. NT

      Absolutely. So before we had, uh, Daniel Ek of Spotify on, you know, I, I have to learn about the music industry. I didn't know so much about it. And before we had NVIDIA CEO, well, I had to learn about microchips. Or, you know, uh, did the CEO of a bank, then you learn about that. And so it's just a fascinating learning experience. Or Bill Gates, you have to learn about a lot of things, because he knows so much about so many things.

    11. HS

      When you think, we've, we've spoken about kind of, um... yeah, NVIDIA you mentioned there, we spoke about Microsoft. How do you think about, like US tech firm concentration? It is so concentrated today.

    12. NT

      Yeah.

    13. HS

      I'd just love to hear your thoughts on that.

    14. NT

      Well, it's very concentrated. And, you know, you have the market cap of individual companies which surpass the market capitalization of all the Swedish companies, for instance. So they are bigger than singular countries.

    15. NA

      It's fascinating.

    16. HS

      Is that good or bad?

    17. NT

      I don't think it's good or bad. I think it's just a function of this being a platform economy, where if you, if you own the platform and you have the size, you just, uh, gain more size.

    18. HS

      Everyone says, like, in every cycle, there's incumbents, and, you know, this is no different, and they can always be challenged. Honestly, to me, this feels different, because in, in a lot of cases, the data advantage that they have and the sheer scale that they have-

    19. NT

      Yeah.

    20. HS

      ... is just bigger than ever. Nokia, when it was at its height, did not have the scale-

    21. NT

      No.

    22. HS

      ... that Microsoft does.

    23. NT

      No, it's interesting. So now, for instance, in AI, it takes...

  15. 22:32 – 25:35

    US Tech Firm Concentration Insights

    1. NT

      uh, it's so expensive to develop the new models, that if you're not already a big company, you have difficulty doing it. So there is, there is an argument for this continuation of the winner takes it all just continuing. So, but I, I, I d- I just don't know.

    2. HS

      How do you think about investing in AI super aggressively, that you are primed position-wise to actually say, "Hey, we can become a market leader, we can take a very forward approach, we can take a very long time horizon"?

    3. NT

      Well, we are, we are quite close to the index, the way we invest, so we bet on all the big companies. You know, our biggest position is Microsoft. We have big, very big positions in, um, you know, NVIDIA, AMD, uh, Alphabet, you name them, we have... The- those are our biggest positions.

    4. HS

      Would you do Sam's new $7 trillion project?

    5. NT

      (laughs)

    6. HS

      I mean, there's only a few people who can.

    7. NT

      Yeah. Well, we... Uh, the good thing here, well, the easy thing here is we only do, uh, companies with a stock market listing. So even if we wanted to, uh, do it, that wouldn't be so easy.

    8. HS

      How do you think about the chip shortage problem?

    9. NT

      I have to say, the, the, the podcast I did with, uh, Sam Altman was really, really interesting.

    10. HS

      Was it? Why, why was it so interesting?

    11. NT

      Because I-

    12. HS

      I mean, I loved it, but-

    13. NT

      ... because I felt that, uh, we were looking into the future and that he knew what the future was going to look like. And he had, he, he has more-... visibility into it than most people, at least for the next kind of three, three to five years.

    14. HS

      When you hear him talk about it, are you excited for that future?

    15. NT

      Yeah.

    16. HS

      You are?

    17. NT

      I think it's huge. I think it's fantastic. So I ask him, I say, "Hey, we, we, we wanna improve productivity in the fund by 10%. What do you think about that number for the next 12 months?" And then he thinks a lot and he says, "No, I think it's too conservative. I think you should try for 20% given how many developers you have." So now I run around in the firm and just go, "Hello, guys. How exactly are you going to improve your productivity by 20% over the next 12 months?"

    18. HS

      When you have the index-like approach that you do, what does a 20% productivity increase mean? Like, more analysis? Because I, I heard you say that you wouldn't change head count, you'd just do more with the same.

    19. NT

      Yeah, I think we do better at-

    20. HS

      So...

    21. NT

      We do better analysis, we do better follow-up with the companies, we do, uh, you know, better work on, on devoting, we do... I just think you improve the quality across the board.

    22. HS

      How do you think about chip shortage? This is the, one of the most challenging problems we're facing in this space.

    23. NT

      Yeah, so I don't think too much about it, to be frank, because I suspect it will take care of itself because we have commercial players here, and I just saw that AMD is, uh, launching a new, uh, chip which is even faster than what was available before, and so I suspect there will be chips.

    24. HS

      Do you believe in Adam Smith's-

    25. NT

      And if they are not, uh, if there are not enough, then prices will go up and then one will consume less.

    26. HS

      Uh, you're a big believer in Adam Smith's invisible hand.

    27. NT

      Well, on that particular ca- in that particular case, absolutely.

    28. HS

      In other cases? I am.

    29. NT

      Yeah. No, I think, I think in that particular case, it works really well. I don't, I don't think... Hey, I mean, it's not like capitalism is solving all the problems and it's creating its own problems, but, uh, but it's got some pretty, uh, pretty, uh, good and, and well-working mechanisms.

    30. HS

      There's a brilliant, you know, quote

  16. 25:35 – 26:48

    Qualities of The Best Investors

    1. HS

      that I think to a lot, "When the facts change, you know, I change my mind."

    2. NT

      Yup.

    3. HS

      Uh, how do you think about changing your mind?

    4. NT

      Oh, very, very important. And so, when you look at the best investors in the world, they are ve- they are stubborn because you need to be stubborn, uh, and you need to be able to sit with your positions, but when the facts change, you need to change your mind. And the combination of stubbornness and agility, it's a combination which very, very few people have.

    5. HS

      There's another great investor. I'm, I'm forgetting again here his h- terrible thing. He talks about the willingness to be lonely-

    6. NT

      Yeah.

    7. HS

      ... in your beliefs as well.

    8. NT

      Yeah.

    9. HS

      When other people don't see what you see, and you have to be willing to sit in that discomfort.

    10. NT

      Yeah.

    11. HS

      Do you sometimes feel uncomfortable in a position that you hold because it is less obvious or lonely?

    12. NT

      Hey, abso- absolutely, but the thing is that the more uncomfortable you feel, the better it probably is. And so, as long as you know that, that takes away some of that uncomfortable feeling.

    13. HS

      Are you able to, to seek discomfort though in positions?

    14. NT

      Yeah.

    15. HS

      Do you, do you know what I mean? By given the position, given representing a country, you can't exactly say to your analysts, "Hey, let's go and find some batshit crazy things which everyone hates right now because that's where value is created in investing."

    16. NT

      Uh, yeah, I mean, I... It's, it's more difficult to do with, with this current fund, but it's, um, it's ideally

  17. 26:48 – 28:25

    Evaluating Regulatory Concerns in Europe

    1. NT

      what you should be doing.

    2. HS

      H- how do you think about regulation environments? I, I, I get quite worried when we see inc- increased regulation suddenly around Europe, especially around M&A and liquidity environments. How do you feel when you look at the regulation?

    3. NT

      Well, there is a reason why you have regulations, right? It's to prevent, um, uh-

    4. HS

      Bad actors.

    5. NT

      Yeah. And it's to prevent another financial crisis. And so, it's put there for a reason. Is there too much regulation? I mean, there could be in some areas, but generally speaking, regulation is not a bad thing.

    6. HS

      (laughs) As a technology investor, it most often is.

    7. NT

      Could be.

    8. HS

      Uh, it's a challenge.

    9. NT

      It is, of course, holding Europe back compared to the US. Now, there are several reasons why US, why Europe is growing less fast than the US, and it struck me... I spent, I, I spent a month in New York in November and, uh, met with a lot of companies, and you just... There is a different thinking about speed, different thinking about risk, different level of ambitions. You know, in Europe, 5% is a high number. In the US, it's a low number. Uh, in Europe, you, if you fail, you are generally not giving ano- given another chance, so you have some, um, mentality, uh, differences.

    10. HS

      Do you think that's still the case here in Europe?

    11. NT

      I totally... Absolutely.

    12. HS

      What can we do to change that?

    13. NT

      It's very difficult. It's very difficult.

    14. HS

      I, I had Larry Summers on the show. That was a fun show. And he said a brilliant one. He said, "Europe's a museum, Japan's a nursing home, and China's a jail." How do you feel when you hear that?

    15. NT

      Well, he's a very clever man, generally, so, uh, he must be onto something.

    16. HS

      (laughs)

    17. NT

      (laughs)

    18. HS

      He'd be a good guest for your show. He doesn't hold back.

    19. NT

      Uh, I haven't, I haven't met him.

    20. HS

      He doesn't hold

  18. 28:25 – 29:43

    "When Will NBIM Hold Bitcoin?"

    1. HS

      back. You know, it was funny, we, uh, posted on, I think, Twitter, um, about you coming on the show. And a lot of comments said, maybe this is Twitter, but, "When will you hold Bitcoin?"

    2. NT

      We will not hold Bitcoin. It's not in our mandate and we have no wish to have it.

    3. HS

      Hmm.

    4. NT

      I don't think. And also, I'm not quite sure I fully understand the, all the implications of, uh, Bitcoin. But, um, but we, but it's not ........................ for us.

    5. HS

      Uh, can I ask one that I feel I don't understand, is China. And this was another one that came up, like, what would make China investible for you?

    6. NT

      That we invest in great Chinese companies and there are, you know, many of them which are good. You know, if you think about, if you look at the ch- the sentiment towards Chinese companies, it's pretty, pretty rock bottom, right?

    7. HS

      Yeah. I don't think it's ever been worse in my working career.

    8. NT

      No. So it's the worst we've seen. Uh, so have we seen the low in, uh, in sentiments? No, uh, that, so that I don't know. But, uh, if you look at where our sentiment's really high and where are they really low, clearly US, uh, offices, so real estate, very low. China, very low. US tech, very high.

    9. HS

      Hmm. (laughs) do you think-

    10. NT

      (laughs) This is pretty obvious.

    11. HS

      Do you think the negativity towards China persists?

    12. NT

      I don't know. I don't know. They, they have some issues. They have, uh, deflation there now. Uh, the growth is a bit slower, but, uh, they are, um, a lot of people and they are

  19. 29:43 – 30:47

    Psychology & Confidence in Investing

    1. NT

      very hardworking.

    2. HS

      They are incredibly hardworking.

    3. NT

      Yeah.

    4. HS

      How do you think about your own investor psychology, Nikolai? Like, I think confidence in investing is very important. And I'm just intrigued over the many, many years you've been investing now, how do you think about controlling it when it's too high?... protecting when you made a couple of bad investments and-

    5. NT

      I think the importance here is to, well, you need to, you need to be stubborn, you need to question yourself all the time. And it is these kind of, um, you need to be, you need to be, uh, confident, but at the same time, you need to be a bit insecure. So, it's to get that balance right. It's tough.

    6. HS

      What are you insecure about today?

    7. NT

      Everything. I mean, you have to, you have to question everything. You have to question what is happening with inflation, uh, what is happening to valuations, what is happening with, uh, uh, technological innovation? What is happening to geopolitics? You know, where are, where are the risks? What's happening to the political situation we have? Uh-

    8. HS

      We're selling the world's largest-

    9. NT

      ... elections and ... Totally, we got elections all over the world. So, there are a lot of things to be uncertain about.

  20. 30:47 – 32:24

    Climate Costs & Investment Strategies

    1. NT

    2. HS

      Uh, can I ask, uh, climate is one which draws a lot of, uh, attention and requests for more investment. How do you think about climate, costs, mitigation, the role that you can play?

    3. NT

      If you're a small investor and you only own a couple of companies, you can hide from the climate problems, right? If you own the whole world like we do, you know, we own 1.5% of all the companies in the world, we, you cannot hide, because you got one company which pollutes, you pick it up in the rest of your portfolio, okay? So, you need to care about th- the environment, you need to care about, uh, you know, the f- the future of, of, of the globe because taking to the extreme in an uninhabitable world, the value of your investments are zero. So, so we really need to care. And that is why we, uh, care deeply about the climate and why we work with the companies we're investing in, and why we are in continuous dialogue with them, why we vote at AGMs, and, uh, why we have a, a very, um, kind of fixed policy towards this.

    4. HS

      Do you think you have a good culture at the firm?

    5. NT

      Yes, I think we have a good culture, but culture can always be better, right?

    6. HS

      Mm-hmm.

    7. NT

      And so you continuously need to improve the culture. Um-

    8. HS

      What could be better?

    9. NT

      No, I think ... So culture, you can have, uh, even more speed, you can have people taking more responsibility, um, (sighs) you know, even deeper sense of engagement, but, I mean, generally speaking, it's a phenomenal firm. And, you know, with that-

    10. HS

      What do you think you do really well?

    11. NT

      As a firm?

    12. HS

      Yeah, to make it phenomenal.

    13. NT

      We have good, good people, um, who feel very strongly about what they do, who have a passion for what they do, who are proud to work on behalf of the Norwegian

  21. 32:24 – 33:18

    Why People Are Investing in Norway

    1. NT

      population.

    2. HS

      Can I ask, and this is a strange one, with o- the size of the vehicle itself, wh- when does it go back to, like, I saw your talk, I think it was a TED Talk, where every Norwegian's a millionaire. Like, it's ... And then some people are like, "Oh, reinvest more in Norway." .............................. Reinvest more in Norway. What's it ultimately for?

    3. NT

      Well, we have the fund to safeguard it for future generations. And so it's an investment fund, and it's cr- it's, it's a c- uh, it's kind of a backup fund, right? It meant that during COVID, you could pay for, uh, you could pay for, um, y- you know, various efforts and so on that many other countries couldn't really do. So, it's, uh, it's a combination, it's a combination of the two. Now, we can, uh, the government can spend 3% of the fund every year, and it funds roughly 20% of the state budget. So, it's very, very important in terms of funding everything that goes on from hospitals to schools to road buildings

  22. 33:18 – 34:27

    Work & Life Balance Insights

    1. NT

      and so on.

    2. HS

      Do you believe in work-life balance?

    3. NT

      Well ...

    4. HS

      (laughs) That's a no (laughs) . I don't.

    5. NT

      I'm, I'm, I'm not, I'm not really ... Uh, so, um, okay. So, I asked, uh, Jensen Huang, the CEO of NVIDIA, you know, "How much do you work?" He said, "Nikolai, there is, there is hard work and then there is insanely hard work." So I said, "Okay. What, what, what about you then?" "I work insanely hard. I work every day from I wake up at 9:00 until I go to bed at 9:00. I work, uh, every weekday, Saturday, Sunday. Every holiday. I work all the time." I said, "Wow. But, but when do you relax?" "Yeah, but I relax all the time," he said, "because I love what I do." And I think if you really love what you do, it's not gonna feel like work.

    6. HS

      I get that, but then there also, there is also-

    7. NT

      And what I do is what I do and-

    8. HS

      ... time with your, your spouse, your kids-

    9. NT

      Yeah, yeah, sure.

    10. HS

      ... your mother, your father.

    11. NT

      Yeah.

    12. HS

      Like, I mean, a lot of Americans are devoid of that.

    13. NT

      Yeah. Well, so I'm not devoid of that, uh, I have both, uh, kids and a wife. Uh, but, uh-

    14. HS

      How, how old are your kids?

    15. NT

      Well, they're in the 20s. So I set aside time, uh, you know, for them. But I, I work a lot because, because

  23. 34:27 – 35:19

    Fatherhood & Parenting

    1. NT

      I love what I do.

    2. HS

      What does it mean to be a great father in your eyes? Like, what is great fatherhood to you?

    3. NT

      It's, uh, to show unconditional love. It's to spend time with them. It's to listen to them and-

    4. HS

      Has your style of parenting changed over time?

    5. NT

      (laughs)

    6. HS

      When you look back to, you know, when they were literally born until now, has, has your views on what good parenting is changed?

    7. NT

      I think, uh, and then you, and then you have be pretty han- then, then you, you work hard, uh, on parenting for some, you know, for some years, and then I think it's really hands off. You need to just let them loose, uh, support them in what they do, make sure they know that you're, that you're proud. And then, uh, I've been very lucky to have a, a wonderful, uh, wife who's, uh, spent a lot of time on, on the upbringing. So that's, that's been a big, a big thing.

    8. HS

      Yeah.

    9. NT

      A big

  24. 35:19 – 36:31

    Building a Culture of Open Communication

    1. NT

      gift.

    2. HS

      Can I ask, we're, we're kind of flipping back to culture, but I guess it's also relevant with kids. How do you create environments where people feel they can say anything? Often people don't actually, whether it's with CEOs of huge organizations, CEOs of Goldman Sachs, Citi, to stand up to someone and say, "Actually, Nikolai, I disagree, and we could be doing this internally." How do you think about creating cultures of safety where team members or children can say, "I, I disagree"?

    3. NT

      Well, the most important thing is to admit mistakes yourself. You have to stand up, admit mistakes. That's the only way to make it safe for other people. And it's very tough. But the interesting thing is that if you, if, if they think that you are pretty clever generally, and you admit mistakes, do you think they trust you more or less?

    4. HS

      More.

    5. NT

      ... more, they trust you more. So it's quite counterintuitive, but it's a v- it's a fantastic thing to admit mistakes.

    6. HS

      Is vulnerability in leadership good, and is there a limit-

    7. NT

      Oh, absolutely.

    8. HS

      ... to it?

    9. NT

      Uh, yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, y- if you are like a complete moron, it doesn't work, okay?

    10. HS

      (laughs)

    11. NT

      You must be, you must be genuinely, uh, uh, not stupid. Okay?

    12. HS

      (laughs)

    13. NT

      But as long as they-

    14. HS

      We've got no idea what we're doing.

    15. NT

      As long as-

    16. HS

      What even is AI? (laughs)

    17. NT

      No, but as long, as long as they think that you are clever, then, uh, admitting mistakes is really good.

  25. 36:31 – 40:50

    Most Memorable Meetings with CEOs

    1. NT

    2. HS

      You've met some of the most impressive and incredible leaders of companies where, you know, you own 1.5%. When you think about the, not the best, 'cause that would be, obviously, choosing favorites, but just like the most memorable meetings with CEOs you've had. It could be through the podcast or through meetings, uh, is there one or two that stand out?

    3. NT

      Do you know, one I- I'm really fond of is a guy called Albert Beni in Switzerland. He's, he's the chair of both a company called Lonza and Geberit. And I did a podcast with him, and, and actually he was the first guy I rang when I got the job in the Zone Wealth Fund. And I asked him, "Albert, I just got a new job. What should I do?" And he said, "Well," (laughs) "you need to talk to a lot of people in the firm," (clears throat) so that you get better data points, so that they get to l- know you because they don't know you. They need to l- then they g- they need to get to know you. And when you make ... when you, uh, inve- investigate change, it's easier to get through when they ha- feel they participated. And you need to talk to people who are, you know, the same level as you, below you, all parts of the business. Then you need to decide, "What am I going to work on here? What am I going to change?" Pick a few things, not many people, put it through together with a whole leader group, and don't go too fast. The people who fail are people who try to do too many things too fast. And there were a couple of times in the beginning after I got the job, where we clearly were moving too fast.

    4. HS

      I mean, in what way?

    5. NT

      And it was like as if the, the lower body, you know, was kind of not in sync with the upper body.

    6. HS

      In what way? 'Cause the value just accrued and appreciated and ...

    7. NT

      No, no, it was just like we were j- just trying to make too much change in the organization. You could just feel that the organization didn't want to do it, and it's very important. You don't wanna, you don't wanna, um, you don't wanna, um, kind of, uh, uh, trigger the, uh, the immunity system of, of an organization. Right? So if you try to do too much thing, the whole organization is just trying to expel you. It just want to get rid of you. You're a nuisance, right? It's a v- as if your body was trying to get rid of some bacteria. And so that's why you shouldn't go too fast.

    8. HS

      When you think about the one or two things then you thought, "Okay, we're gonna focus on these one or two. These are the things that you want to be remembered for with your tenure."

    9. NT

      Yeah. They were crystal clear. One, it needs to be performance-focused, you know? We needed to f- focus in on performance 'cause otherwise, we will just not, uh, have a reason to exist. Then it was the people, spend more time on developing the people, inject more love and care, uh, and then the last thing was communication. More communication internally and more communication externally. So we had three things.

    10. HS

      You mentioned the communication there. You know, you are CEO of, as we said, the largest (laughs) . Doing your own podcast is like, it's a ... others don't do it. Talk to me about the discussion point for that, and how did that kind of come to be, where you're like, "Not, not only..." 'Cause most would also say, "Oh, we should do one, a CMO or head of marketing need do it, and pass it off." You took the reins on this. You do all of the shows.

    11. NT

      Yes, I do. Um, and, um, the thinking was, "You know what? We are a big fund. We are ... what is, what is the, what is transparency taken to the extreme?" Well, that's showing all the Norwegian people what they own. I thought, "We potentially have access to all these fantastic CEOs, and not many other people have." And certainly, not many other Norwegian podcast, um, people had access to them, and so we, we started it. We thought it'd be good for, uh, for the general listeners, it'd be good for CEOs, it'd be great for students. We got tens of thousands of students listening, and um, and it's proven to be really good for recruitment too. So, you know, um, the applications now for our positions in New York and London have just gone up tremendously.

    12. HS

      Do you feel that you've got better as an interviewer?

    13. NT

      Yeah, I think you get better. I bet you're better than, than you were a thousand shows ago.

    14. HS

      I was terrible.

    15. NT

      Well, you're good, you're good, you're good now.

    16. HS

      People, people, people always say to me-

    17. NT

      You're good now.

    18. HS

      ... "Ha, you know, I could never do what you do," and I say, "I've done 2,700."

    19. NT

      3,700?

    20. HS

      2,700.

    21. NT

      Wow, my ... What, what, what, what's the main way you got better, you think?

    22. HS

      Definitely feeling much more natural. I was very staccato. Also, the best interviewers are able to have a schedule-

    23. NT

      Yeah.

    24. HS

      ... and then move away from it, and engage in the natural flow of conversation-

    25. NT

      Yeah.

    26. HS

      ... but then bring it back to the schedule without it seeming staccato or cut off.

    27. NT

      Yeah, you need to, you need to follow up.

    28. HS

      Yeah.

    29. NT

      You need to have follow-up questions, but at the same time, you need to move it forward. And it's that combination I think is important.

  26. 40:50 – 46:12

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. NT

    2. HS

      Are you ready for a quick fire?

    3. NT

      Sure.

    4. HS

      Okay. So is ... H- you asked this one of, of Jane at Citi. Is it important for you to be liked?

    5. NT

      I don't particularly like to be hated, but it's not, uh ... but you can't, you can't always be liked, uh, all the time. Uh, but ideally, what you do is going to make you, uh, better and perhaps liked in the long term.

    6. HS

      What does a day in the life of you look like? Just if, if you were to have a standardized day. I know there's travel which kind of makes it a ...

    7. NT

      Well, so the cool thing is I don't have any ... the days are not similar. But I wake up at, let's say, 6:00 or before 6:00. I read a lot of papers, and then I go to the office. I speak to ... I have just different types of, uh, meetings with, uh, my colleagues, the investment colleagues, the ministry. Um, I do a podcast a week. I do ... I don't know. It's just so varied, unbelievably varied. We have offices in London, Singapore, and New York. I travel. I just have a really busy day.

    8. HS

      How do you gym, exercise?

    9. NT

      I go to the gym. I may not look that way, but I go to the gym three days a week in the morning, and then I go in the winter cross-country skiing every weekend, Saturday and Sunday.

    10. HS

      Gym three times a week is good. Do you go to bed early?

    11. NT

      9:30.

    12. HS

      Yeah, early. Okay.

    13. NT

      Well, I b- I think that's pretty late, but ... (laughs)

    14. HS

      (laughs) Do you find it easy to go to sleep?

    15. NT

      Yeah.

    16. HS

      You must have-

    17. NT

      Yeah.

    18. HS

      ... a lot on your mind.

    19. NT

      Yeah, I like that.

    20. HS

      Has it always been like that?

    21. NT

      Yeah.

    22. HS

      (laughs) Okay. What are you most concerned about in the world?

    23. NT

      Now, we got some big climate issues. We got some big geopolitical issues.

    24. HS

      What's the best investment advice you've ever received?

    25. NT

      Investment advice is, uh, to be long term and, long term and contrarian. That's where all the money is.

    26. HS

      I agree. It's just the single hardest thing, as we said, to be willing to be lonely for so long in the face of so much criticism and disbelief.

    27. NT

      I, um, listened to a lecture by Marc Andreessen at Stanford many, many, many years ago. And he said, "You know what? You, if you have this, uh, this ex, if you have this kind of, uh, two axis, one is right and wrong and the other one is consensus, non-consensus, all the money is where you, you are right in non-consensus." And, uh, I'm really excited because I am going to meet Marc Andreessen, uh, in March. So if you have any questions-

    28. HS

      Is he, is he coming on your show?

    29. NT

      Uh, Uh, no, but I'm seeing him.

    30. HS

      It'll be a good one. He, he's a special man. Tell me, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you?

Episode duration: 46:12

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