Ryan Wiggins: Scaling WhatsApp from 0-100M; How to Build a Growth Team; Mercury Neobank | E1016

1. 0:00 – 3:47

   Who is Ryan Wiggins?

   1. RWRyan Wiggins0:00

      One of the craziest fun facts about WhatsApp is that WhatsApp got to a billion and a half users without running any AB test.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:05

      (instrumental music) Ryan, I am so excited for this, my friend. I spoke to Alex Schultz, I spoke to Cordoneo, I spoke to Sachin, I know so much about you, but thank you for joining me.

   3. RWRyan Wiggins0:16

      Hey, Harry. Excited to be here. Uh, really excited to get to chat.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:20

      Now, I would love to start with, uh, a little bit on you. So first question is, how did you make your way into the world of startups, and then kind of secondarily, how did you make your way to Mercury today?

   5. RWRyan Wiggins0:30

      Well, I started my career in a customer support role at Facebook right out of college, and didn't really know what I wanted to do, but one day someone offered a SQL class, and I took that class and it basically changed my life. I kinda used that in my support job. I, I tried to basically figure out why I was getting yelled at so much, uh, and tried to improve what we were doing with customer support. Um, then a couple years later when I was looking for a new job, it turns out that what I was doing the whole time was growth. That got me connected to Alex Schultz and a team at Facebook known as growth marketing that sits at the intersection of data, product, and marketing. And I spent six years there helping grow different products across Facebook, things like Facebook Ads, Workplace, a product in London, uh, and WhatsApp, uh, where I spent about three years really going deep on how we, uh, grow some products. I learned a ton, but at some point I, I wanted to go explore some earlier stage problems, and so started to, to look and stumbled across Mercury. And how I ended up at Mercury was that I started some conversations and then took a look at the product and immediately knew that I wanted to join. For those in your audience who aren't aware, Mercury is banking for startups. Uh, we offer a product that helps startups, uh, solve all their banking needs. Uh, and it's such a better banking experience than anything else I had experienced, and I thought that if I could help bring this to the world, I would be so stoked to, to spend my time doing that. Um, and since then, about two years in, uh, we've scaled to over 100,000 startups. We have established a super strong product-led growth motion and I've gotten the opportunity to help build a world-class analytics team. Still having a, a ton of fun while doing it.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings2:06

      So I meet this with respect. You don't have the Harvard Stanford Facebook growth team like b- born out of, uh, LinkedIn profile like Brian Hale and like many other greats. My question to you is, do you think we place too much emphasis on these logos, and what do you advise people who are navigating their careers and maybe kind of like you didn't always know that this was what you'd ultimately do in the end, uh, what would you advise them?

   7. RWRyan Wiggins2:33

      I started my career, you know, in pretty humble backgrounds, and, you know, the thing that's interesting is that growth wasn't even really a job when I started. So basically my entire career has been unplanned, but there have been kind of two guiding principles that have guided a lot of, uh, my career that have come in the form of ad- advice. And so the two kind of things that, that come up is that, you know, first, at the end of the day, you have to pursue things that you're really curious about, and you have to use those kind of curiosities as a way to add value to the team you're on. My mom always had this saying which is that you should blossom where you're planted. I've tried to do that as much as I can, and when I've done that, it creates options for where I can go. Second, uh, someone once gave me the advice that you should try to pick a role and a person you want to be and try to understand your skill gap to that role, and then once you find opportunities to apply that skill gap, you try to make progress in that. And you can reevaluate over time, but if, if you're kind of pointing in a direction, trying to make progress in that, you'll grow in ways that you didn't expect. And so, you know, I don't know that I'm more or less skilled than any people from, from some more advanced backgrounds or from some of these kind of technical schools, but, uh, I found that those two principles have helped me and helped kind of guide my career, uh, and given me opportunities that I wouldn't have ever expected.

2. 3:47 – 8:47

   Biggest Takeaways from Working at WhatsApp

   1. RWRyan Wiggins3:47

   2. HSHarry Stebbings3:47

      Speaking of growing in ways you didn't expect, I mean, uh, Facebook and WhatsApp are two meteoric growth case studies, uh, over the last 10 years. I'm just fascinated. When you review those years that you spent at, at both organizations or within the organization there, what, what are one to two of the biggest takeaways for you, Ryan, from seeing firsthand the hypergrowth there, and how did that impact your mindset?

   3. RWRyan Wiggins4:09

      My time at WhatsApp was actually probably the most interesting contrasts that helped me kind of discover a lot of what I've learned about growth. And, you know, I joined WhatsApp in 2017, um, and basically WhatsApp was very different than everything I had learned at Facebook. And, you know, for six years at Facebook, the thing I had learned was that data is core to everything. It, it... You kind of understand funnels, you instrument things, you don't make a decision without having some data to the table. But when I joined WhatsApp, it had a billion and a half users, and it really only had about one product manager, about two to three data people working on it. So I took that as an opportunity to go to school, and I think it's a story that hasn't really been told about WhatsApp, uh, about why WhatsApp got to w- where it was, and so I'm gonna tell that story and then I'll come back to what I learned. So what, what I learned about WhatsApp and how WhatsApp grew was really kind of three things. First, uh, it was the right product for the right market. If you look at the market at the time when WhatsApp launched, apps, uh, d- app stores and smartphones were just launching, SMS prices across the world were about 10 cents a message. And the second thing is that WhatsApp built a product that was really simple and it was reliable. They focused ruthlessly on the core things you should do, which is be able to send a message and it go through, and it always worked. I mean, in the four years I, I worked on WhatsApp, it never went down. But then the kinda third thing was that they added fuel to the fire and found what was working and tried to enhance that. In particular, there was some partnership deals early on in the life cycle of WhatsApp where they partnered with carriers to offer free data packs. This kind of aligned incentives with, uh, WhatsApp and the carriers because, uh, carriers wanted people to buy the data packs, and those users would then buy the data packs and use WhatsApp. So it was kind of a virtuous cycle of growth. That led to a product that just took off and kind of became a fuel for a lot of growth, and then the WhatsApp team kept going further on that principle of a product that's simple and reliable and added things like, uh, uh, calling and other kind of viral features that really helped that engagement between two people.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings6:04

      Can I just dive in and ask, when you look at the growth of WhatsApp, did it ever not go up and to the right? Was there ever a quarter where it was flat or where it wasn't meteoric?

   5. RWRyan Wiggins6:16

      So I think that, that WhatsApp hit S-curves along the way kind of throughout, and some of the ... When you look at, like an overall WhatsApp growth, uh, trajectory, the thing that it looks like is a just straight up, upwards trend. But as you break it down by countries, you find that, you know, some of the countries overweigh the, the kind of growth of other kind of segments of what was happening in WhatsApp. So, you know, India coming online and reaching, I think, around 600 million smartphones over the course of the last 10 year has been just a huge boon to WhatsApp's growth, and has been something that kind of always adds, uh, incremental numbers, and it's kind of become a, a really saturated product in that market. But there are some markets where WhatsApp wasn't as, uh, big. And, you know, like the United States has been a, a country where WhatsApp has some adoption, uh, but hasn't quite reached a, a scale of, uh, you know, total growth. And it's sometimes been flat and sometimes even negative over that course of time, and so thinking about kind of overall verse the sub-segments is, is one way of looking at some of the differences there.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings7:12

      Why has the US been a challenging market for WhatsApp, do you think?

   7. RWRyan Wiggins7:16

      I mean, I think it really comes to competition in the marketplace. I mean, when you look at the dynamics in the United States, some of the things that happened were, one, SMS was very, uh, cheap early on and included in a lot of plans, uh, phone plans that people bought. Second, there were a strong amount of competitors. Things like, you know, a really robust SMS network, iMessage has become really big in the United States, uh, Messenger for f- the Facebook product of the messaging app. So you just have a lot of competitive dynamics that weren't quite the same as in a market like India where SMS was 10 cents, so like, you know, you're actually competing against 10 cents verse the marginal cost of incremental data.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings7:53

      Yeah. No, I totally get you. Sorry, I interrupted you there though, and the lessons that you took from that and how it impacted your mindset.

   9. RWRyan Wiggins8:00

      All good. I mean, the, the thing that I, I kind of found was that, okay, so, you know, WhatsApp grew basically without the, the Facebook data-driven approach. Uh, but, you know, that doesn't mean the data doesn't have any value. And over the four years that I spent at WhatsApp, we were able to found, find huge improvements in things like WhatsApp Business, taking a product from zero to 100 million monthly actives, on growing in places like France where, uh, WhatsApp wasn't as prominent, um, and a few other things that I can't really talk about that are related to WhatsApp monetization. And so, you know, core to the lessons that I learned are things that first you need a great product, second you need to have a deep understanding of your customers, and that can come through data or just, you know, true customer empathy, but then third, you have to have an incredible growth execution loop. And when you combine all those things, you get a product like WhatsApp that, you know, is truly something that has taken over the world.

3. 8:47 – 11:49

   What is an excellent growth loop?

   1. RWRyan Wiggins8:47

   2. HSHarry Stebbings8:47

      What is an incredible growth execution loop?

   3. RWRyan Wiggins8:51

      I mean, it, it comes to understanding the dynamics behind a product and what will help pour fuel on the fire, um, and when I think about what, uh, makes growth really work is the intersection of product experiences, marketing, and partnerships and sales that kind of fuel the fire. But that has to be built on top of a product that is, uh, fundamentally retentive and something that provides value and people really want. And so when you kind of have that core product and then you have the three rocket boosters of product, you know, growth product, uh, marketing, and sales and partnerships, that is kind of the, the combination that really wins.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings9:26

      Is, is that what you mean when you said to me before that most leaders get growth wrong, they don't understand that three pillared segments of growth? Or did you mean something else by most leaders get growth wrong?

   5. RWRyan Wiggins9:38

      I mean, that's exactly it. I mean, at the end of the day, growth is a system. Um, and often when I get asked to come in and grow something, what most people are actually, you know, think they're asking about is, uh, growing acquisition, but I actually think that's where it's totally wrong. Because often, uh, if you look at the kind of growth journey from acquisition, getting in front of someone, to conversion, someone kind of going through a funnel, uh, to then activation and retention, there are often problems that exist in that bottom funnel that make it such that if you were just to go try to do acquisition, you wouldn't reach kind of a scale that you need to. And so you have to think about that kind of full customer journey, and then think about the levers that you can pull in that journey. And sequencing matters a ton for how you actually drive an impact that is kind of at scale.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings10:20

      Uh, I'm just interested, like w- when you say, "Sequencing matters a ton," what does that mean, and how do people get sequencing wrong?

   7. RWRyan Wiggins10:28

      Often I found that when someone is asking me about trying to grow something, they want acquisition, but what they actually have is conversion and retention problem. And so, you know, you have to look at the full funnel of that experience and understand, is there a drop-off? One example of this with WhatsApp Business when we launched pretty early on is, you know, we had a product that was starting to get really strong adoption, team really wanted to go do some acquisition, but when I kind of went through this, uh, growth system, the thing that I found was that retention was dropping off in an enormous scale. I mean, it was something that was actually really concerning. Some of the lowest retention I've seen. And as we dug into that a lot further and we started to talk to customers, one of the things that we found was the transition from the WhatsApp consumer app to the WhatsApp Business app was broken. It kind of was some technology that didn't exist. You kind of lost some chats along the way. But if you're a business starting a new app, losing chats is actually the most critical thing. And so, you know, you could just switch back to the consumer app and get going. And so one of the things that we started to do before we actually focused on pouring fuel on the fire with acquisition was we fixed that initial transition that the common customer was going through. That basically doubled retention and was kind of a angle change in growth. And then when we added in acquisition, we grew at a rate that was totally different. It wasn't just a step change, it was an angle change. And I think that's ultimately what I'm looking for in growth, is trying to find what's kind of fundamentally broken in the system, and then when we pour fuel in it, how do we really get that kind of fire going?

4. 11:49 – 13:43

   What do Growth People Get Wrong about Growth?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings11:50

      So if we think about that holistic picture of growth being what most leaders get wrong about growth, in terms of what growth people get wrong about growth, what do growth people get wrong about growth?

   2. RWRyan Wiggins12:02

      I mean, I think ultimately it is that the product experience matters. I see far too many growth leaders jump to notifications, upsells, or things like that. But in my experience, there's usually one thing that drives most of the results, and people get too bogged down in trying 100 growth hacks to actually move a number.But really, you have to kind of find the right thing. I'll give you, like, one classic example from WhatsApp, uh, that we use a lot in the, kind of the consumer experience, which is that, you know, as we talked about in France and the United States or some of those markets, uh, WhatsApp isn't used by everyone. Um, but in those markets, uh, people still sign up for WhatsApp. And it turns out when you sign up for WhatsApp and you have no one to talk to on WhatsApp, you don't use WhatsApp. And so what we were doing is we were looking at inviting as a mechanism for how we could increase kind of utility of WhatsApp in these markets that WhatsApp wasn't, uh, wasn't working. And so, you know, we tried a bunch of different entry points throughout the product to invite people. But the thing that we found was that an entry point when you're searching for someone that doesn't have WhatsApp was the top entry point. It kind of became 10X bigger than any other entry point. And it makes sense because the context of what you're trying to do in that app was met by that entry point. You know, you're trying to search for someone and talk to them, their app don't have WhatsApp, so adding a little invite in- entry point makes it so that you actually want to invite that person, that person gets on WhatsApp, and you're more likely to use WhatsApp. That one thing was better than the, the 20 different things that we tried. Um, and so it, so it... To me, it's really about thinking about what is the, the right thing at the right place at the right time for someone? And that kind of is the most important thing about growth, and I think sometimes we're too caught up in like, oh, we just need to send another notification. We just need to, like, add an upsell. But actually, it's really thinking about a core product experience. What's the user problem and how do we actually go solve that with a product experience that leads

5. 13:43 – 18:07

   The Metrics To Follow For Growth

   1. RWRyan Wiggins13:43

      to growth?

   2. HSHarry Stebbings13:44

      How do you define what is a successful user? I think this is the hardest question that not enough people actually get right in their own business. When you think about WhatsApp, it could be the number of messages sent today, it could be the number of times you return to the app on a daily basis, it could be the number of contacts you have that use it. How do you advise founders on the right metric that determines user success?

   3. RWRyan Wiggins14:10

      At the end of the day, there's a reason people use a product and stick around in it. You know, one of the most common analyses I do when I kind of start on a growth problem is think about what is the retention curve. So up the percent of people that start, what percent of people stick around, and basically try to correlate that with actions people take early on. For WhatsApp, if you look at that, you know, one of the things that matters a lot is having people to talk to, and so the more people you have to talk to, the more likely you are to stick around when using WhatsApp. But actually, that's not the thing that matters. What matters is the one person that you want to talk to. And we can't necessarily know that one person, but we know that if you have more people, you're more likely to have the one person. And so you have to think about what's kind of the core dynamic of the app, what's the value the user receives, and then what's the thing that helps represent the actions that people take that lead to that? An example of that is, you know, the Facebook 10 friends in 14 days. It really is about having kind of connections on the app that make it so that you have content that you can see and experience the core value of the product. And then kind of the growth effort is how you drive that action that leads to the retentive behavior.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings15:09

      You said about kind of that one action is much more helpful in a lot of cases than, like, 100 little actions or hacks. How do you think about speed of execution and the importance and success of growth teams and kind of growth experiments?

   5. RWRyan Wiggins15:24

      Yeah, I mean, I think speed is one of actually the most important parts of a growth team, and I, I think it's something that differentiates a growth team from just a core product team. And really, I think there's kind of two dimensions of speed that really matter. Uh, one is having really tightly scoped projects that validate a hypothesis, and two is getting, like, quick impactful results. And so to break those out a little bit more, um, one, I think the growth team should constantly be at an, in an explore then exploit mode where they're placing quick bets, getting quick results, and then doubling down when something's working. And I think that that's kind of an iteration loop that can happen in a matter of days or weeks, um, not months. And so c- a team should cons- a growth team should constantly be in that dynamic. The second thing is that I think sometimes teams aim too small. If you're an early stage company, if you're an early stage product, you're looking for something that clearly impacts top line growth. You're not looking for 1% wins. Sometimes not getting a clear signal is a signal in itself, and I think that, you know, sometimes people get lost in like, oh, maybe this is gonna improve by 10%. No, we're not looking for 10% wins, we're looking for 50% or things that kind of double behavior, uh, that's going to lead to a different outcome, and I think that those things are really important when you think about speed of execution.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings16:31

      How long do you wait? How much signal is enough signal? And I just see people try things now like, "Well, we need more time." Like, "A week isn't enough." How do you determine when enough data is enough to decide whether to continue or to cut something?

   7. RWRyan Wiggins16:46

      I mean, there, there's actually a science to this, which is that, you know, when you run an experiment, you can measure the, uh, uh, measurable impact of an experiment, um, in the sample size you need to be able to affect that experiment. And so, you know, there's some online calculators if you just go, go Google, uh, sample size calculator for an experiment. This is something I use all the time, because basically, you know, if you're trying to make a 1% change, you need a huge audience. If you're trying to make a, you know, really big change, you need a small audience. And so the things I think about are like what's the size of impact we actually expect to change? How quick can we measure that and how many people are going through an experience? And if you can't measure an experiment with, uh, the kind of sample size that you have, it's not even worth running the experiment. And so, you know, that's kind of one of the science pieces of this. The other thing is I think sometimes you have to look at the input metrics. Maybe there's a downstream action like messaging someone that is going to take a little bit, but you know, does someone have contacts? Do they, you know, ex- uh, import their contacts? Do they invite someone? Those are actions that lead to an out- output. And so thinking about the difference in input metrics versus output metrics is one dimension that I think actually helps teams kind of understand, you know, are we seeing the positive actions in the income or the input metrics before we're seeing it in the output metrics? And, you know, you can feel confident that maybe there should be more time if there's a lift in the input metrics, but, uh, you know, if you're not seeing the input metrics, you're never gonna see the output metric as well.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings18:06

      Ryan, we kind

6. 18:07 – 20:11

   When to Hire a Growth Team

   1. HSHarry Stebbings18:07

      of jumped a step here, which is really the assumption that this can all be done by an initial team. When we think about the teams that actually work on this day-to-day, how do you advise founders on when's the right time to really start thinking about hiring a growth team?

   2. RWRyan Wiggins18:21

      I mean, the thing that I think is the moment that you're looking for is that the, the product has a core product market fit and at least one channel is working for bringing in some new users. It doesn't have to be huge, but it has to be consistent and reliable and stable. If it's not there, to me, the company is the growth team and the CEO is the growth PM. It just has to be core to building. And you know, you can't bring in a growth team to create growth out of nothing. It has to be, uh, about doubling down on what's, what's working and scaling out to new channels. But you know, the growth has to be fundamental to what the product experience is today. And I see a lot of sometimes, you know, founders come to this problem and, and say, "Oh, I want a growth team." And what they're asking, actually asking for is someone to run marketing to get people in the door. And that can work, but that's not a growth team. That's a marketer that is bringing people into the door. Um, and so I think you really have to think about like, you know, how is the product working and is something, you know, uh, hitting there, and then, then it's time to kind of pour fuel on the fire.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings19:18

      I'm an early stage founder, Ryan, and I'm thinking about adding, uh, my first growth hire. Should it be a growth leader who can hire their growth team or should it be a jack-of-all-trades growth person who is much more versatile? How do I think about that right profile type? Leader or more junior?

   4. RWRyan Wiggins19:36

      I think that there can be some early roles around setting up infrastructure from an engineering perspective or from a marketing standpoint where you're getting kind of the measurement of your product or the conversion tracking set up. But I think you should bring in a growth leader pretty early once you do kind of understand that it's time to grow, because you want that person to basically architect the system of growth that you're building for your company, and I think that's, like, a pretty critical aspect of this. And so how I think about this is, you know, lay some early foundation, get to know that it's working, but then pretty quickly bring in a generalist growth leader that can start to think about, you know, where do we want to take this and how do we kind of maximize what

7. 20:11 – 28:23

   How to Hire Your First Head of Growth

   1. RWRyan Wiggins20:11

      we have.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings20:12

      Okay, so we do that. Say we are the first person in the growth org at a company. That's hypothetically speaking. Someone actually hired me. Uh, what should they be? How should they do it? What tests should we run? What advice do you have for that as the first growth person in an org?

   3. RWRyan Wiggins20:28

      This has been the niche that I have found myself in in my career and it's something that I truly love, uh, and, and enjoy doing, and so I have a couple of different things that I think are really important. I mean, early on in the, the kind of journey of a growth, uh, leader at a company, I think there are a couple things that should really happen. First, I think that growth leader should go through the customer journey from discovering the product and becoming an active customer. Go through it like a customer would, kind of end to end, take screenshots at every step, aggregate that, and share that back with the team. 99% of the time that I've done this, I found that the team hasn't actually looked at that experience in a while because it gets lost in the changes. And so taking kind of a fresh set of eyes at this problem is something that is kind of really important for setting a good foundation. The second thing is I think there are a couple of analyses that are really critical to, to run. First, I think you have to understand where your users come from and how has that changed over time. That can give you an insight into, like, you know, what are the dynamics that are driving growth of this business? Second, I think, think you have to think about what's the funnel from someone showing intent to becoming an active customer. Where are the drop-off points? What are the friction points? What's working, uh, and what is not working? And then finally, you know, this thing that we've kind of briefly talked about, but what are the key actions that lead someone to become, uh, highly active? Is there kind of people that become successful and what did they do early on in their life stage that, uh, made it so that they become successful? Uh, and so that's kind of the maybe foundation of understanding. Then I think as a growth leader, one of the things you have to do is you just have to try to ship something. You know, I think it's important to think about, you know, what is the process of going from an idea to actually implementing something? Who's willing to step up? What are the friction points? What is kind of the engineering systems that are involved with that or kind of the, the business processes that exist around that? And so you kind of have to start from a place of curiosity, but then quickly shift into being someone who gets something done and trying to understand, you know, how can we do that in a repeatable motion?

   4. HSHarry Stebbings22:20

      I, I totally get you. Can, can I ask you, in terms of like, you know, building the team around us, you've said before, before we kind of jumped to hiring this full growth team, you've said that building with the minimum number of people, uh, possible is actually maybe better. Why do you think it may be better to have less people and what are the advantages of that leaner team?

   5. RWRyan Wiggins22:41

      I mean, I think at, uh, some level, I, I strongly believe in the principle of Metcalfe's law. And for those of you who aren't aware, the, the Metcalfe law is the notion of in a communication system, the number of nodes in a communication system mean that the complexity and the value of, uh, that communication system grows exponentially. And so when you think about that, if you have a huge team, it is more complex to get anything done because you're having to coordinate w- across a bunch of people. And so the thing that I look for is, is there, you know, one to four people that can get something done? And trying to keep things as small as possible to iterate as quick as possible, keep the communication loops tight, keep the alignment tight. And it helps prioritize. It helps you think about what is the most important thing to do and how can we go execute on that very quickly? Um, and so I usually start very small and, you know, as you start to do that kind of explore then exploit mindset, um, that is kind of the, the fundamental principle of explore, but at some point you do need to scale it up and you need to start adding more resources to help kind of take things bigger. But that has to come from something that's working, much like, you know, a product has to actually be working before you bring in a growth team. I think your growth team has to be working before you kind of scale a growth team as well.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings23:49

      Do you think founders really know when it's working? And what I mean by that is, do you think we can trick ourselves into thinking, "Oh, we're at, you know, 50K MRR and like, ah, there's real customer demand," but actually it's kind of forced, it's founder-led sales maybe, uh, they may not be churning, we don't, may not have enough data to know about retention? Do you think founders actually understand where they're really at?

   7. RWRyan Wiggins24:12

      The thing that is important is, is it repeatable? Right? And when you say founder-led sales, the thing that I often think about is like if a founder is having to make every call, it's not repeatable because there's a lot of things to do when you're building a company and the founder having to be able to sell kind of every deal is not the thing that is repeatable. And so, you know, I think at that stage, definitely not. I think what I'm looking for is actually, like, has it scaled kind of beyond the founder? Or, you know, one other kind of test that I think about is like if you stop kind of that activity, if you kind of like back off, you know, if you're running ad campaigns, if you turn them off, what happens? And if it totally goes to zero, you actually don't have something that's working because you're not certain to see that, uh, you know, organic adoption is happening. And I think that it's very rare that a product exists totally through just kind of direct sales only or marketing only or other things like that. You tend to see something is happening when you do one of those is other channels start to kind of take off as well. Um, and so to me you kind of actually need to see that like something is working when you, you pull back your effort or kind of lower your level of investment.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings25:13

      As a growth leader, here's the channels that we're using. Do you want to take a channel that is working and make it better or take a channel that is not working and try and make it work?

   9. RWRyan Wiggins25:24

      When you have something working, it is the first priority to make that thing work as well as it can. Um, so I always start with how can you maximize what is working and accelerate it? But ultimately you start to face this question of when should you stop working on a lever or when is there bigger upside elsewhere? And so I think a lot about when do you hit diminishing returns and when is there kind of opportunity cost that you're not, that you're not actually capturing because you're focused on something? And so what I'm looking for is kind of that constant evaluation of, you know, what, what do we think we can gain? What do we kind of have in front of us in this channel? What else could we be working on? And how do we kind of like, you know, make that trade-off of impact, cost, and excitement about those kind of different options?

   10. HSHarry Stebbings26:02

       Say w- we now know that we need to build our growth team more. We want to embark on that process and so we're going to start hiring, Ryan. We are hiring for our growth team, but also we're aware that candidates often for startups are non-obvious and underappreciated, uh, often kind of the obvious (inaudible) kind of the biggest companies earning the biggest salaries. Where do you find great non-obvious talent and growth talent, Ryan?

   11. RWRyan Wiggins26:26

       I mean, what I really look for is the change agents, particularly in operational roles. And some of this comes from the bias of my journey into this role. But where I started, I started in the Facebook Austin office, which is an operational team that handled customer support operations for some different Facebook teams. And the people that stood out in that where they could get things done both kind of within the teams that they were working on, but then actually impacting kind of the core product of Facebook are the people that you want to be looking for as kind of, uh, untapped talent that is not yet being reached. And so I think a lot about who are the people that are being able to make changes from difficult positions or places that you wouldn't expect change to be happening from? In those roles, you kind of learn a level of scrappiness, you learn customer empathy, you learn humility that sets you up for success in a, in a bunch of ways that like, you know, the traditional kind of PM that has started right out of college doesn't necessarily have. And so I look for someone that has been making some changes and been able to kind of affect that change. You know, at Mercury, one of the best PMs I've worked with was someone that came from customer support. She taught herself how to code and she was able to kind of like just learn all these small little tasks that, uh, helped her do her job better but then kind of created the, a skill set that was very well-rounded and meant that she could just get shit done. And, and I, that's what I look for is the person that can get stuff done even when it's tough because I think that, that that's what you're ultimately looking for is kind of a diverse skill set able to kind of go through walls and, uh, build things that last.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings27:50

       Would you ever hire someone who hasn't done growth before?

   13. RWRyan Wiggins27:53

       It depends because I think many things can look like growth. You know, I think that, you know, if I go back to what is my definition of growth, I think growth is a system of optimization and being able to understand a problem in a system and change that system towards positive outcomes. And that, to me, if I'm seeing that, that is something that like, you know, it doesn't have to be called growth for me to be down with that, to, to hire for that. But I do need to see that kind of like ability to understand the system, make changes, and then that change have like an impact. That is kind of the core, the core line

8. 28:23 – 33:47

   How to Structure a Growth Hire

   1. RWRyan Wiggins28:23

      that goes throughout that skill set.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings28:25

      Okay. So say we have this candidate pool in mind. We now need to run a process. And Ryan, I've never hired for a growth team before or growth hire before. What, in terms of the right structure, how should we literally structure the process for a growth hire?

   3. RWRyan Wiggins28:40

      I think the fundamental things you're looking for are really three things. One, I think you're looking for some background examples of being able to get things done and ship impact. Can they get stuff done beyond their position or what they would have done kind of beyond the system of the company that they were in? If you just sail with the wind behind your back, you're not a great sailor. You have to be able to, to go, uh, through the difficult times as well. Second, you're looking for the ability to understand customer behavior and do analysis. Can they break down problems into actionable insights? You know, go from an idea to actually what would you do to execute on that idea? I think that that's something that's really critical. And what you're looking for is someone that isn't going to be blocked by other people and need to like pull a bunch of resources. They need to be someone that can kind of generate value without needing to, to pull as much from other people. And the last thing I think is product sense and taste. Um, I think they, you know, you have to ask can they make decisions that are going to fit within this broader kind of company perspective? So those are kind of the three dimensions that I look for. And I think there are many configurations of what you can actually screen for and how you can set up the interview process. But I think those are the three pieces that I'm really looking for when I hire someone that is a growth leader and I think that you can figure out the right structure for your company. I think you could do behavioral interviews. I think you can do take-homes to that. I think you can do kind of cross-functional interviews that, that pull on these dimensions. The kind of combination doesn't matter as much besides deciding on what are the kind of core attributes that you really need for the job.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings30:02

      Just walk me through again. I'm a first-time founder hiring my first growth hires. Interview, case study, deep dive. How do we structure that process?

   5. RWRyan Wiggins30:12

      I mean, so the first interview is a interview about their background and kind of what led them to you.What I'm really looking for is take me through the journey of your career. Why did you choose the things that you worked on? What are some example projects that you helped guide and how did you guide them? I really love going through examples of what people have worked on, asking them to break down kind of why things worked the way they did and how they would have gotten more impact out of it if they could. Um-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings30:35

      What are the best and what are the worst there? What are the green flags in how they describe those experiences and what are the red flags?

   7. RWRyan Wiggins30:41

      The thing that I'm really looking for is the ability to understand the system behind what's happening. Can they, can they understand that it's not just about, you know, adding an entry point, but actually there's a value that matters for a person at a given, uh, drop-off point and that, that they can understand that there's something broader beyond just the one change they made and kind of find consistent wins or, you know, break it down into like how could you take that and maximize something? Um, those are some of the dimensions that I'm really looking for in that background is, you know, can, can they, can they think broader than just the example, uh, about their kind of role and how they entered that . Uh, great people, I find, are people that, uh, you know, are able to take a problem, which is like how do we get more people to sign up, break it down into composable pieces, and then figure out, you know, the s- the seven things that you should try. And then this one works. Oh, let's take that one thing that works and, and 10x it. Um, that is often the thing that I'm looking for in that kind of background thing. In the worst cases, the thing that I see is, you know, someone that is just kind of running a playbook, uh, someone that is, you know, just doing the thing that either their company would do or, you know, we could find on a blog or things like that. Like to me, you have to be curious. You have to be trying to understand how the dynamic of the product is actually working, not just, you know, what, uh, what's the change?

   8. HSHarry Stebbings31:57

      Do you do case studies, and if so, do you do case studies with a company that they've worked with before or your company? That's a tough question.

   9. RWRyan Wiggins32:06

      Yeah. It is a tough question. I mean, first, I think it's like really important not to just do case studies about the problems you have in front of you because it kind of makes, uh, the candidate feel like they're just doing free work and like it's answering a question that you may already have an opinion about. So if I do use, uh, my own company, I try to make it something that's general enough about a slightly different problem, uh, that is maybe something that we could go after but not the kind of problem of the day that helps kind of establish the framework for thinking and lets you kind of go deep on a couple of different dimensions. Um, and so case studies are critical, but I try to think about like can it be about the more general problem of what the case study gets at verse something that, you know, would be influenced by my thinking of the day.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings32:49

       Who do you bring in on the decision process? Who's the people who should be on the hiring committee that say, "Yes, we should hire this growth person"?

   11. RWRyan Wiggins32:58

       Yeah. I mean, I think that it should be the leadership team, uh, should be kind of core to it and the people that are going to make decisions about the future of the company. I think the, uh, cross-functional partners they work with is going to be critical, so the team they work directly with, if it's marketers, if it's engineers, uh, if it's partnership folks, you got to kind of get those people working together and understand can they work, uh, as peers. Uh, and then if there's going to be kind of reports, you need to get some report signal as well and management skills too. And so the thing that I think you're looking for is kind of the 360 overview of how does that person work with other people. Um, and so that's some of the, the aspects that I think about. Um, I also think that, uh, you know, the analysis part is critical. And so if your company doesn't yet have an analytics team, like understand how you can try to build that kind of skill set or bring in external advisors because I think that fundamental to growth is analysis

9. 33:47 – 36:08

   How Much to Pay a Growth Hire

   1. RWRyan Wiggins33:47

      and you have to kind of add that skill set into it.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings33:50

      How much do I pay them? What does that comp package look like, Ryan?

   3. RWRyan Wiggins33:54

      I mean, I think compensation varies by location and the kind of seniority of the role. But, but one dimension that I think is really important for a growth, uh, role that is slightly different than maybe some other roles is that you really want skin in the game so that the growth person has, you know, equity upside in the problem. And so, you know, the thing that I would look for is what is the kind of combination of salary that kind of fits their needs but then equity that has a meaningful contribution such that if that person succeeds, uh, they would have reasonable upside and, and that is kind of the combination of things that I'm looking for. I think that, you know, it's good to kind of give a sliding scale of that. You know, present an offer but say, "You know, if you want more equity or if you want, uh, more cash, like we can talk about that." But, you know, I think you, you do have to think about that balance of reasonable cash, uh, you know, sizable equity, uh, and then trying to find that is important. The other thing is kind of, uh, correlated with that is you have to be pretty critical about like if it's working or not. You don't want someone to have a huge equity package and just be sitting, resting, investing. You want them to like, you know, how, know that they're gonna be evaluated by their performance and, you know, they will be compensated, uh, as such that like, you know, if you do well, you're gonna have huge upside but, you know, if this isn't going well, we're gonna, we're gonna, uh, call it. And so I think that that's, uh, an important aspect too.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings35:07

      First growth hire. I'm, uh, I dig now, my friend. I've been doing many shows. It, it's not a senior hire, it's a 28-year-old to 35-year-old but it's a first growth hire so it's not a growth leader. What's that b- range in terms of salary?

   5. RWRyan Wiggins35:23

      In the United States, which again is maybe not a, an assumption that I should have, but in the United States I think it's a, a reasonable, uh, assumption that, uh, 150 to 250 cash and then some sizable equity packages is the range that you're looking for. That kind of varies by seniority and skill set and ability to kind of manage or build a team, uh, and experience. Um, but I think that, that you're kind of looking for that. You don't want to try to match some of the, you know, big companies that can offer huge salary and equity packages. You do want someone to, to be scrappy and to understand that their upside is gonna come from the growth in equity.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings35:57

      Uh, so we, we, we've hired the person. Fantastic. We, we've done it, Ryan. F- well done. Uh, they're joining our company, woo hoo.

   7. RWRyan Wiggins36:05

      (laughs) .

   8. HSHarry Stebbings36:05

      Uh, now we need to onboard them, uh, a kind of segment of

10. 36:08 – 40:45

    How to Onboard Growth Talent

    1. HSHarry Stebbings36:08

       the hiring process which is continuously fucked up. So what is the right way to onboard growth talent? What does that optimal onboarding process look like?

    2. RWRyan Wiggins36:17

       To me, month one is about getting to know the people, the product, and the kind of processes. So, you know, what I really look for when I'm onboarding someone is an exponential growth trajectory for themselves as, as being the person in that role. And so in that first month, the thing that I'm really trying to get them in is all the context that we can possibly have. Do they have the right relationships? Do they understand the problem in the customer journey? And do they understand how they can get stuff shipped? And that first month actually, you may not see much progress, but by month three what I expect is someone to be starting to form opinions and starting to make changes that are ha- having clear input into a successful trajectory. And so what I'm looking for there is are they finding unique insights? Are they, uh, making changes and helping ship things that wouldn't have otherwise been shipped? Are they bringing clarity to a strategy and kind of the tactics that we're building, uh, and helping how to bring people along in the communication of what they're doing? And so, you know, that's kind of how I think about it is that one month and then three month time frames, and you know, I think that it varies by the person but that's essentially the path.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings37:18

       What are the biggest red flags for you if you have someone join at first 30 to 60 days where you're like, "Ugh, it's not working out." What are the big red flags as to why that would be?

    4. RWRyan Wiggins37:30

       There's kind of three things that I really look for as red flags. One is I not team. Are they thinking more about themselves and their position than kind of how the team operates and the broader kind of mission of the company? You really want to see someone that is adopting and, and adapting to the company that you're working on. Second, are they thinking about sustainability and systems? If someone's just coming in and, you know, launching a new notification in their first month, they're probably looking for the quick wins that kind of show that they're looking, uh, they're, they're making progress, but not things that are actually going to lead to long-term success. And so, you know, what's the sustainability of what they're doing? And will it be something that is a repeatable pattern or is it kind of behaviors that are kind of quick wins that, uh, you know, may be annoying to customers but you may not see that annoyance early on? And the last one is ignoring feedback. You know, I think early in this kind of first month to three month period, the thing that you want to do is have a really good feedback cycle with the leadership and cross-functional peers. And if someone is not taking feedback about like, "Hey, you might want to focus on this rather than this," you know, that's a huge red flag to me and something that, uh, you know, we've got to act on super quick, because, uh, being a leader means that you take feedback.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings38:36

       You said act on super quick there. I think we'll both recognize that people are generally too slow to let people go if it's not working out well. If it's not going to plan, how long should we give a head of growth and a growth hire, and they may be different there, to prove their worth and prove their value?

    6. RWRyan Wiggins38:54

       I mean, I think in most cases you can understand three to six months if someone is working hard or not. And that doesn't mean that they have to be, uh, totally changing the trajectory of your company in three to six months, but the question is are they leading to a quality of work that is the kind of understanding, choosing of smart bets, and showing that they can execute on problems that is leading to, like, any success. It has to be focused on the inputs and the quality of those inputs, and sometimes the output takes a while. You know, some, for some of the roles that I've taken, it's taken me, uh, you know, six to, six months to 12 months to actually see a win. But that kind of early inputs of how they're interacting with the team, how they're kind of coming to conclusions, and then what they're building is, uh, I think enough to be able to tell, like, this is going to be successful or it's not. And then you have to have a hard conversation and, and understand can they, can they change that trajectory? And if they can't, then, you know, it's time to, to let it go. But you know, the thing I've found about, uh, letting people go is that you're always happier when we do than you ever would expect.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings39:51

       What are the biggest fuck-ups you've made in hiring, Ryan?

    8. RWRyan Wiggins39:54

       I remember once we hired someone that in the interview the thing that we felt that was that they were super arrogant. Uh, they just kind of like presented themselves as like the expert and the, the perfect person for the job. Uh, and we all kind of picked up on it, uh, in the interview, but we decided like, oh, this person's got a bunch of skills and so we should do it. The thing is that people show you who they are in the interviews, and the things that you see that are red flags early on tend to be problems that kind of grow over time, and people don't kind of change their core behavior. And so the, the red flags for me are one, not taking the red flags I saw in the interview process seriously, and two, thinking about like, you know, did we hire someone because the, you know, system around them at their previous company made it so they were successful or were they uniquely successful? Ultimately in a hire the thing I'm looking for is can they drive an incremental difference in a new scenario, and you know, they should have some example

11. 40:45 – 43:48

    Why I Don’t Do Post Mortums

    1. RWRyan Wiggins40:45

       of being able to do that previously.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings40:47

       Speaking of determining levels of success, on a project basis, how often do you do postmortems as a growth team? How do you structure them? Who's invited? How do you think through postmortems effectively?

    3. RWRyan Wiggins41:02

       So maybe a controversial take, but I don't really believe much in doing postmortems for growth changes. I think that there should be a process in which you understand what you're going to do, you understand how that went and why you made the decisions you made and kind of where you should go from there, and that should be a regular process, even something that happens monthly. But I think that it's very toxic for a growth team to get in navel gazing of micromanaging basically every small change that happens. If something breaks, you should evaluate it and figure out where to go forward, but it's constantly about that evaluation of what should we change and where should we go forward and what are the themes of what we're learning rather than oh no, we launched this thing and it didn't work, let's, like, spend, you know, a full day on it or, you know, even a couple of hours on it. I think that you have to be able to make a lot of changes and see what the themes of those are, evaluate what happened, and then figure out where you go from there. And I think that that's kind of the model that I'm really looking for rather than kind of an immediate postmortem which to me speaks to, like, you know, taking, uh, you know, a mid-step, uh, assessment of how things are going.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings42:00

       I mean, I have to ask one review. When you think about growth decisions that you've made, talk to me about a growth decision you made without data to back it up. How did it go and what were some takeaways for you?

    5. RWRyan Wiggins42:12

       Yeah. I mean, at, at Mercury there were a ton of these, especially early on because we were a pretty small company at the time and we didn't have a ton of data to inform what we were doing. But one example of this is that, you know, the experience that I had when I joined Mercury was the product is a differentiated experience-And so one idea we had was, uh, that, you know, maybe we should build a product demo so people can see our product. But we thought about how to do that in a Mercury way, and we went and looked out at other demos. They either didn't exist or they kind of think about the value for the company. They try to extract an email. They try to walk you through these really annoying steps. You can't actually explore the product. And so what we built was a product demo where we just remove all the friction. You can see the product. You can go to demo.mercury.com. Uh, and we added a little open account button at the top, and we just put it out. We didn't know if it would work, but it was kind of an experiment. Let people see the product, play around with it, and if they want, they can decide to use it. It... The reception has been, like, wild from that. I mean, over a thousand accounts have signed up. We've had some huge deposits. Basically, sales, uh, size deposits have come in without talking to anyone. It's become a huge growth lever, and it even helps with things like recruiting because employees see that and they're like, "Oh, that's, like, a really cool product. I want to go work there." Um, you know, that to me is the, the classic example of product-led growth and doing that explore versus exploit mi- ex- exploit mindset was that we just launched something, put it out quickly, tried to see what would happen, and then, you know, we've gone back to that for a bunch of wins. And it's turned out to be something that's hugely successful, but at that precipice, it was really just a hypothesis that, like, people want to see a product before they sign up for it. Let's do it in the way that we think we should do it, uh, and it turned out to be hugely successful.

12. 43:48 – 45:18

    A/B Testing at WhatsApp

    1. RWRyan Wiggins43:48

    2. HSHarry Stebbings43:48

       Talk to me about A/B testing at WhatsApp. What, what's the story there? I got told I had to ask this one.

    3. RWRyan Wiggins43:54

       I mean, so one of the craziest fun facts about WhatsApp is that WhatsApp got to a billion and a half users without running any A/B test. Um, they didn't even have the framework that could run A/B tests. But when I joined in 2017, we were starting to think about some business features that we were gonna add. And in particular, one of the things that the team was most concerned about was the negative impacts of those business features, that, you know, if someone starts to get business messages, they might react negatively and turn off the app. But at WhatsApp's scale, it's very hard to see that. And because it's a network effects product that if you do start to see it, it's actually too late. And so one of the things that we decided to do was to build an A/B testing system to understand the negative impacts of some of the features we were introducing. We ran that. We built that, worked with some great engineers to build it in a privacy safe way. We built that. We ran the, the experiments. We found that there were no negative impacts. We didn't prove the null hypothesis, and we were able to, to, to launch that product and feel really good about what we launched. And that A/B testing framework has become infra that is run for a lot of other things in WhatsApp. But, you know, it's so interesting to me that so much of WhatsApp had been built without that. Uh, and then when it does get introduced, it's more to think about the downsides rather than the, the upsides of the kind of quick wins that often A/B testing is thought about.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings45:02

       What about growth in France? What's the story there?

    5. RWRyan Wiggins45:06

       Yeah. For WhatsApp, there are some markets where WhatsApp is not the, the main messaging app that exists in the market, and it comes down to a lot of competition in the places, and France is one of those. You know, when we were looking at the growth of what we could do to grow WhatsApp

13. 45:18 – 50:24

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. RWRyan Wiggins45:18

       consumer, we thought about what are the markets in which we can help accelerate towards kind of a true network effect that becomes the main messaging app? And so in France, what we did was we basically took that playbook of finding the product, marketing, and partnerships that we could build to go accelerate our growth, and we executed that playbook over the course of a year where we worked on things like inviting in the product to, to make it so that people had the people that they wanted to talk to. We worked on marketing campaigns that WhatsApp had never run, uh, to bring in consumers to WhatsApp, and it turns out that people responded really well to that. We found some pretty novel partnerships as well in that space. And through the- that kind of combination of those three tactics, we were able to accelerate growth in France and see that we were actually increasing our, uh, market share of, uh, WhatsApp and put that on a trajectory to start to win. And it was kind of one of the best successes we've saw, we saw in growing the WhatsApp consumer app. And the interesting thing was that, you know, it wasn't about, uh, trying to grow in India. That market is already won. But trying, trying to find the right markets and the right places and that classic playbook of growth is something that you can kind of pull from anywhere.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings46:21

       Ryan, I want to dive into a quick fire. I've basically just pelted you with questions for most of the show, but I'm gonna do a quick fire where it's 60 seconds per one, uh, and then we rock and roll through them. How does that sound?

    3. RWRyan Wiggins46:32

       Sounds great.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings46:33

       Okay, so let's do what tactics in growth have not changed over the last five years?

    5. RWRyan Wiggins46:40

       Yeah. I mean, building an experience that connects users with the key actions that are going to make it so they stick around in your product is something that hasn't changed and is never going to change. It's something that, you know, is going to always work, and I think it's gonna mean that I, I always have some sort of job in this space.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings46:55

       What tactics have died a death on the flip side?

    7. RWRyan Wiggins46:59

       You know, I think that email and push notifications are something that has been so overused that it, it actually has led to channel blindness. No one's excited about them. They die a quick death. And when someone... You actually, like, annoy someone to the degree that they turn it off, you lose a channel forever. Um, and so I think that, you know, the tactics of let's just send another notification on its way out. Uh, and hopefully that is the case, but something that I don't think works that well.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings47:23

       What would you say the biggest mistakes founders make when hiring growth teams?

    9. RWRyan Wiggins47:29

       I think it's, uh, that it's just one thing that... You know, I think a growth, uh, team has to be a system and a sustained investment. Just because you try once doesn't mean that it's going to work. You have to actually go at it and you have to understand the problems, make incremental progress and see that it's working, and then when it's working, you double down. But you can't just expect someone's gonna come in and run the best marketing campaign ever in history and that it's just gonna take off. It has to be a lot more than that.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings47:54

        What would you most like to change about the world of growth?

    11. RWRyan Wiggins47:58

        I think that people need to talk to more customers. I mean, one of the things that I came up in was that, you know, a lot of growth people think about data and they think about kind of the experience without actually putting products in front of people and asking them what the problems they experience are or what they feel about kind of the growth tactic that's being introduced. And so I think talking to customers is something that I would love to see growth, the, the growth kind of practice spend a lot more time on.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings48:22

        How do you see the function of growth evolving over time? Does it look different in five or 10 years?

    13. RWRyan Wiggins48:28

        I mean, I think it's about building a better product experience, but I think that it kind of just comes back to that fundamental of what is sustainable for a product and what is, what is native to that product. And I think that, you know, that tactic is going to be something that I see kind of continuing to evolve and being important. But I think on the flip side, the thing that I see is like, you know, ad platforms are always getting more expensive. They're always more constrained. And if we... If you particularly look at some of the trends that are happening with moving to richer formats like TikTok, it's just more expensive to create basic content. Uh, and so I think that, you know, it's always going to be more expensive to run ads, but, uh, if you can think about what are the sustainable kind of product experiences, that's really where you'll find, uh, a lot of growth value.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings49:09

        The final one, my friend. When you look at the landscape of great product experiences other than Mercury, what one product experience company growth strategy have you been most impressed by recently?

    15. RWRyan Wiggins49:20

        I mean, one that I really love is Substack. Um, Substack is a product that has built an incredible platform for a very targeted customer subset and provided a ton of value with them. But then as they've gone kind of through the journey of building that initial product that provides value to writers, they started to add on things that they can uniquely do because they have a network. They've added ways to recommend, uh, you know, newsletters between different writers. They've added, you know, and... a mobile app that is quite compelling and has kind of these features. They just launched a new kind of network effects product. And I think to me, the interesting thing about Substack is they're aligning their incentives behind their core customer, and when you see that happen, you know, the, the wor- the world is their oyster. And it's something I'm really stoked about, uh, and really excited to see how they've taken off.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings50:05

        Ryan, as I said, I heard so many good things before. I love the blend of WhatsApp growth stories. I love the blend of, you know, Mercury stay and then also super actual advice. Thank you so much for joining me and also for putting up with me moving slightly off schedule.

    17. RWRyan Wiggins50:20

        Uh, thanks, Harry. Really appreciate it.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings50:22

        You are a hero, my friend. Thank you.

Episode duration: 50:24