Sami Inkinen: "Why the Two Weeks Following Our IPO Were the Worst of my Life" | E1120

1. 0:00 – 0:40

   Intro

   1. SISami Inkinen0:00

      I could see six figures-

   2. NANarrator0:01

      (cash register dings)

   3. SISami Inkinen0:01

      ... in my checking account. The company goes public, I might have yelled, like, "I'm, I'm rich." Two weeks after that, something wasn't working in our apartment, the silliest and the stupidest thing, and then suddenly, I feel this sort of panic attack. I should be happy. I'm not. What the heck is going on? (instrumental music plays)

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:18

      Sammy, I am so excited for this. I cannot believe it has been seven years since we last did this. But thank you so much for joining me today.

   5. SISami Inkinen0:27

      Well, Harry, thanks for having me back. Uh, time flies when you're having fun, right? Seven years. (laughs)

   6. HSHarry Stebbings0:34

      I, I mean, it totally does. You look freaking younger. I look older, significantly. But I wanna start

2. 0:40 – 2:34

   Introduction & Childhood

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:40

      (laughs) with a little bit of backstory, because I think so much actually goes back to childhood. You know, I always remember my father and, like, my family kind of instilling this, "You'll be good enough when you live in a certain place." (laughs) It was Chelsea for us in London. I'm just intrigued. Take me through your childhood. Where did you live, and how was that relationship with your parents?

   2. SISami Inkinen1:02

      Yeah. Well, I grew up in Finland, uh, about 200 miles northeast of Helsinki, very close to the wonderful border with, uh, Russia. Um, and so I, I grew up on a farm, um, and, uh, it wasn't a ... It was a gentleman's farm, I guess I could say, in that my parents were factory workers. Um, so we had a farm, uh, lots of manual labor. I was their manual labor. So very kinda humble beginnings, picking potatoes, feeding chickens. Um, and so, so that's kinda how, h- how I was growing up. And I would say two things about my up- upbringing. In some ways, it was very kind of romantic in that, you know, growi- growing up on a farm, I could climb the trees, and it was very safe, and, like, it was a wonderful, wonderful, um, uh, place to live. I would say that. That's sort of the one thing. But the second thing I would say, I absolutely had no professional role models. And the fact that I'm living in America today, you know, building a company, and I have been here in, in the States for more than 20 years, it, it, my family, mom, it's still like, you know, I'm living in the moon or in the Mars. So it's a very, very kind of unlikely sequence of events. Uh, so my parents didn't even go to high school. They weren't professionally trained, so I had absolutely no, uh, role models of what might be possible beyond being a factory worker and, you know, picking potatoes, uh, to, to feed the family.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings2:33

      What was it that opened

3. 2:34 – 6:32

   Discovering Ambition & Possibilities

   1. HSHarry Stebbings2:34

      your eyes to the world? Where did you get this sense of ambition and this desire to, to conquer more of the world than the, the, the farm in Finland?

   2. SISami Inkinen2:41

      Well, first I should say, I, I've, I've come to realize that I have a story. We all have a story. So the, the truth is, I don't know. I absolutely don't know. But obviously, I have a story and an attitude behind that I think might be true. And, and so the, the story that I have is, you know, obviously, I, I was reading a lot of, uh, magazines, computer magazines. I think even in Finland, you know, we had Fast Company and so forth. I could see that there's some- that there's a larger and bigger world out there, and I got very excited about computers through the pages of magazines. And I somehow convinced my parents to, uh, find the money to buy a Commodore 64. Uh, some of your listeners might be old enough to know that there was a computer- (laughs) called Commodore 64. So I actually got a computer before I turned 10, and, uh, that kinda opened my eyes to what might be possible with this magical tool, uh, called a computer, which obviously my parents had no idea about. And I, just as an an- as an anecdote, um, I was so drawn into this screen and the computer and what was possible with it, whether that was programming or simple games, that of course my parents were always telling me, "Come back. You know, come back and come help us with, with the farm work, because nothing's gonna ever come out of that. Like, you're so addicted to that computer," which obviously, um, it's, it's been a fun line to drop (laughs) to my mom and my parents, you know, decades later day.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings4:18

      (clears throat)

   4. SISami Inkinen4:18

      "Nothing's gonna come out of that." Uh, well, my whole life and career has been built around that. But somehow, I, I was exposed to this sort of world of computers. This was late 1980s. So computer wasn't, wasn't a thing that people were talking about, um, you know, in the, in the farmlands of Finland.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings4:40

      Can I ask you a question? Did you kind of know that you didn't have much money when you were growing up? Was that obvious to you in terms of kids at school having more, you not having much? Was that obvious?

   6. SISami Inkinen4:49

      No, it wasn't. Uh, and then the, the, the reason is... Well, I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll tell you two things. The reason is, in, in Finland, more or less everyone's middle class. So that's kinda one thing. So you're not exposed to, at least at the time - and, you know, we didn't have Instagram at the time - uh, so you're not exposed to the extremes. And what you see on TV and movies, the, the Hollywood, it is not the real world, at, at least at the time. So, so you aren't really ev- at least at the time, you weren't exposed to the extremes. I always felt comfortable. I had what I wanted. I, I had what I needed. So a couple of tools for sports, um, you know, whether it's cross-country skiing or running, you need sneakers. Um, so I, I never felt like we were somehow missing out, surprisingly so. Uh, that said, I have to say, the reason we had a farm was to subsidize our own food so we wouldn't need to spend all the money at grocery stores. Um, I also remember we never had a new car. We saved a lot of money for many years to be able to buy a used car. Uh, we did one vacation trip, uh, with, with an airplane, but we couldn't afford to travel as a family. So it was me and my dad one year-... and then my mom and my sister the following year. And so, obviously, in today's context, this idea that you can't afford to fly all four, that you can have half the family this year and half the family next year, that sounds pretty poor, doesn't it? Um, but that's, kind of, how I was growing up, but I never felt like it was extraordinarily poor or suffering.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings6:31

      When did money start

4. 6:32 – 12:54

   Drive to Create & Be Valuable

   1. HSHarry Stebbings6:32

      to become important to you?

   2. SISami Inkinen6:33

      I don't know if you believe my answer but, in some ways, never. I've always felt I've had enough at any given time because I've been (laughs) pretty happy with- with very little. That said, ever since I was a kid, I've dreamed of what could be, but that what could be has never been about, "I wish I had $5,000 or $50,000 or $500,000," but I've always dreamed of what could be in terms of living in the bigger circles, uh, creating something for others. So, I've always dreamed of, like, this life on a farm, picking potatoes, uh, you know, having a job nine-to-five, getting drunk on a Friday evening, having hangover on a Saturday, going back to your factory work on a Monday morning. This is- this cannot be all there is to life. So, I've suddenly had that dreaming always going on. That's just part of my operating system.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings7:38

      When you- when you dreamed of what could be, what was that dream? Was it the hou- I'm just trying to understand. Like, was it a desire to be with powerful people? Was it a desire to be in a big house?

   4. SISami Inkinen7:47

      (laughs)

   5. HSHarry Stebbings7:47

      Was it a desire to have a beautiful wife? What- what was the dream?

   6. SISami Inkinen7:52

      No, honestly, uh, n- none of those. Um, the dream, uh, has always been about, like, creating something that attracts a lot of, um, use or value for others. And I'll- I'll give you the- the one example that I did. So, when I was 15 or 16, I, uh, open up and, kind of, hack together the- one of the first, not the first, but one of the first BBS's, so bulletin board systems, in Finland. So, you know, obviously, I was running that from my room. I hijack my parent's phone line and then upgraded, eventually, to a 24-hour, uh, phone line, uh, you know, BBS, so bulletin board system. So, you have modems and, you know, this, sort of, the pre-internet people call in. So, that was an example of a project, a dream, that I wanted to build. I wanted to build something useful that many other people would- would use, and I- I charged some users for- for access. And that gave me ton of satisfaction. Like, "Hey, I'm- I'm creating something." I can't explain what that satisfaction was coming from, but it wasn't just, "Oh, somebody paid for it." It was the- the act of creation, creating something that other people want and other people use. Uh, that's been a big part of the- the dreaming what could be. Uh, and honestly, now, 20-plus years later, I- I can, and we can talk about, like, what I'm working on now and the- the company I started before, Virta, and- and some of the same drivers are still at the core of it.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings9:26

      Do you have a fundamental need to be liked? Is- is that- I'm sure- is that part of it? Which is creating products that people love and then it's like, "Oh, I want to be liked."

   8. SISami Inkinen9:36

      I think there's an element of that, but I would say, I- I think if I go to my core, you asked earlier, like upbringing. Uh, it wa- it was humble, wonderful begin- beginnings, but feeling of I'm worthy the moment I wake up definitely was not there. So, I'm- I'm very, very, uh, unnecessarily hard on myself, and I think one of the programming that I have, whether that's nature or nurture, is I have to earn the right to exist through my actions every day. And there's a lot of that kind of drive that's ins- inside of me. Less so I want to be validated by others, but this kind of feeling of the fact that I exist as a human being, which should be enough, and honestly, I- it is enough, I can intellectually tell.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings10:32

      Is that why you do the sport? Like, you are- you are an intense athlete and you do unbelievably hard things. Is that a desire to sh- tell yourself that you're worthy? That, "I can do this"?

   10. SISami Inkinen10:45

       I think less so. Uh, the- so- so there's couple of things that I- I allocate my life, uh, time, and one of those is- is- is sports and physical activities. And the reason I- I do all that and, you know, the race triathlons and cycling and row the boat from California to Hawaii with my wife, uh, row boat, and we can- we can talk about- talk about those. At least the narrative that I have, it- it- it- it's couple things. First one is I want to experience the animal self, if that makes any sense. Breathing, sweating, the taste of blood in my mouth, and, uh, heart beating. I- at some level, uh, uh, uh, you know, like in my bone marrow, that's a beautiful, beautiful feeling. And I sometimes, uh, jokingly, tell people, I say, "If you only have your body to transport your brain from one Zoom meeting to another, that is a very, very, uh, poor existence." Like, the fact that we have our bodies and we are able-bodied, uh, I want to use that. Like, that feeling of using my entire body, suffering, sweating, heart beating, it is a beautiful thing to have and I want to make most out of it. So, that's one reason, um, I- I do a lot of sports. And it- it is a very...... visceral, kind of a bone marrow level feeling that I have. And then the second reason is, honestly, it is very a- addictive and just fundamentally makes me feel, um, both in my body and in my mind. Um, very good, and it allows me to be way more focused when I just have to sit down and only use my brain. So definitely, it's, it's part of my wiring that it'll- it allows me to do the intellectual things when I also train my body.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings12:50

       Do you think, I think all, not all, but I think 95% of great

5. 12:54 – 20:00

   Addictive Personality & Observing Behaviors

   1. HSHarry Stebbings12:54

      founders are addicts and you- there's many different a-

   2. SISami Inkinen12:58

      There are.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings12:58

      Agree?

   4. SISami Inkinen12:59

      Oh, h- hundred percent. Hundred percent. And I often tell my wife, I'm like, "I'm so happy I'm happily married." I, uh, uh, and, and, and I'm so glad I haven't gone down the path of very dangerous addictions, actually ever in my life. But in almost anything I do, if one is good, I'll go for five and then I'll go for ten, and I have to really observe my own (laughs) behavior and make sure that I don't go too far in anything. A h- hundred percent.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings13:29

      How do you do that? I, honestly, I haven't navigated that balance. I, I think a lot of people followed my running, when I started running a lot, and I went to running two or three times a week, a marathon. So two or three marathons a week. Sammy, my fucking knees are shot. I, I, I can't run at all anymore. I'm so fucked. I didn't listen and I... How do you know where that line is?

   6. SISami Inkinen13:49

      I think the ability to observe yourself is an absolute superpower, uh, which I personally have developed over years, now I'd say decades, through, through meditation. I guess the analogy I've sometimes used is, you know, you when in a computer software, so you know, like, you write code, you can have sort of runtime debugging mode. You can see the code line by line and, and you can kinda find where it gets stuck. Uh, that's kind of... If you can observe your own thoughts or your own behavior, take, like, a step back and see what's happening, I think that's a kind of a superpower. And I am not trying to pretend, um, uh, uh, y- I'm, I'm, like, excellent at it. Uh, I, I am a beginner. But I think cultivating the ability to observe your own thoughts and behavior is absolutely essential in kind of catching you and your self and your behaviors and hopefully catch it before it goes too far. So that's one way in which I try to do. And I'll just give you a practical, somewhat silly examples. Like, what am I addicted to? So certainly in, in sports, like, I d- try to be aware of why I'm doing it. You know, I, I have a training log. I keep track of, how much should I do? I try to be aware of when I'm getting too close, overreaching or overtraining or I may be getting sick. So that's one example. Caffeine intake. People ask me, "Do you drink coffee? You're the kind of person, you probably don't drink coffee." I'm like, "Absolutely, I do drink." And, you know, my wife, and you, you know, just kind of makes jokes and laughs at me, says, "Yeah, you, you, you, you go from one cup to two, then you go to three, you go to four," and I'm absolutely the kind of person who could end up with 17 espressos a day. And so I have to catch myself in that action. Work is no different. It could kinda absolutely pull me in. Like, anything and everything, absolutely, I have that sort of addictive streak. And therefore, like, I have many reasons to stay away from recreational drugs, and I'm absolutely certain that I could, I could end up in a ditch very easily.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings16:00

      Can you take me to an obs- time when you observed something really unhealthy and what you learned or did from it when you went, "Oh, no, that's not good"?

   8. SISami Inkinen16:12

      There are many moments when, you know, I'm just, despite being a f- you know, grown in Finland, I'm kind of an ice man and calm, cool, collected, there are moments where you are just about to lose it, whether you're tired or someone's screaming or whatnot. It's almost like anger management, just being able to catch the wave of emotions coming up when you're about to be like, seriously, uh, wh- whether that's yelling or screaming or whatever. If you can catch you in the, in the, in the, before you act. Like, I have daily moments like that, whether that's with kids or spouse. You're about to say something and you realize, do I want to preserve this relationship or do I try to be right or do I try to satisfy my own urge to, to be right or feel better?

   9. HSHarry Stebbings16:59

      When did you first make your real money? Like, when was the first big hit of money for you?

   10. SISami Inkinen17:04

       Ion we sold a little bit secondary in kinda six figures, um, uh, with my company, Trulia, before it went public. Um, uh, maybe that was, let's just say, 2010, 2009, 2008 or something like that. So we s- we sold six figures in US dollars of, of, of secondary. And that's actually the only moment, the only single moment in my life where I felt or experienced this surge of, oh my god, there's, there's more money than I may ever need, which sounds funny to say. You can spend all the money in the world. Or there's more money than I, I, I ever thought I would, I would make in my life. That is the, the one and only moment when I've experienced that.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings17:52

       Did you feel happy in that moment?

   12. SISami Inkinen17:55

       Yeah, I, I would say that's the only time I felt like, oh my god, I'm... You know, I, I might have yelled, like, "I'm, I'm rich." Like, I c- I could see six-figure sum of cash in my checking account and... No, I'm, I'm gonna share something really ridiculous. So I felt like I, I have a lot of money. I, I went to Best Buy in, uh, in San Francisco, like, "Wow, I can buy anything!" And I probably spent $15,000, uh, buying a Bose, you know-... the movie audio set, bunch of, um, iPods for music. Just electronics. 15, 20,000 bucks. Took them to my house. I spent another 10 grand on, on, on a bicycle for trying out my time trial bike. That's all I needed. I probably spent 25,000 and I paid all my debt. Like I paid all my ... I, I had like 100,000 of, of debt coming out of Stanford. I paid all that. That, it probably lasted 48 hours, that feeling of, "Oh my God, I have so much money, I don't know what to do. I can do ... I can satisfy all my, um, uh, monetary needs and desires." And it was a 24 hours to 48 hours. And I can honestly say since then, I've more or less never thought about money. But it was an interesting experience because, um, leading into that I knew that we were selling some secondary. I'm like, "Wow, I'm gonna make bunch of money." I was dreaming about buying a car even, uh, I did not end up buying a car. So, it was a 48-hour wave that kind of washed this idea that money is gonna give some eternal joy and happiness and then I got it and $25 ... $25,000 at Best Buy and, and I realized that it was just like any other minute. It's like an espresso and it's ... That is not gonna give you an eternal joy and satisfaction.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings19:59

       They must have loved you

6. 20:00 – 24:28

   Impact of Financial Success

   1. HSHarry Stebbings20:00

      at Best Buy, but I, I'm intrigued-

   2. SISami Inkinen20:01

      (laughs)

   3. HSHarry Stebbings20:01

      ... when you go public with Trulia, you, you make a, a ton more money. How did that feel? Because that's a feeling that founders ... You know, we have 700,000 founders that listen to the show. That is a feeling that they dream of. You know, we're not allowed to say that it's about the money today, but for a good chunk it is, and there's nothing wrong with that, I don't think. For those listening and have that moment of IPO and when you are technically liquid, um, how did that feel for you?

   4. SISami Inkinen20:30

      Yeah. So, um, so truly, uh, went public on New York Stock Exchange 2012. Um, and I had left my operational role, um, a few months before that. So I was still on the board, so I did not have a full-time job. So I was kind of a free agent by, uh, choice and by design. Um, I was living in New York, uh, in Chelsea with my, with my wife. We had no kids and the company goes public and yeah, there was some secondary sale as part of that. So sort of objectively speaking, um, there was some very liquid wealth created in that, you know, instant, instant moment. The two weeks after that, in, in, in my life were probably the worst that I've ever had in my life. And so-

   5. HSHarry Stebbings21:26

      Why?

   6. SISami Inkinen21:26

      ... so here, here, here's what happened. I remember it was one Tuesday or Thursday, random day in the middle of the week. Uh, I'm working, walking to Chelsea Piers to do my morning workout at like 10 o'clock in the morning. Um, and I remember something wasn't working in our apartment. Whether it's the washing machine or something. Something was just broken and was sort of annoying me and I'm walking to Chelsea Piers, uh, on, on Manhattan and, and that feeling of that thing's not working was creating anxiety and I was just feeling very dis- disappointed about it. And then suddenly, I feel this sudden panic attack, uh, is about to come over. I'm like, "Wait a second. I have a wonderful wife. I'm in my 30s, I have a ton of money in the bank. I'm living in New York. I can do whatever I want. This should be the peak, the ultimate peak moment in human joy and satisfaction." And here I am, I'm getting anxious, disappointed, aggravated about some silly thing not working. And my mind goes, "Wait a second. I'm in my 30s, I may have 60 years or more of this left. This is not going to end well. What the heck is going on? I should be like, I should be happy." I'm not, and I'm getting anxious about the silliest and the stupidest thing. And I got ... I was about to freak out. I would get, get very, very worried about what is happening. So, so that was probably the one of the, like a single lowest moment I've, I've experienced in my life. And I'll, I'll just quickly mention, and we can go into what I did afterward. But I, I realized pretty soon after, a few days later that I've never ... Or up to that point in my life, I had always kind of chased the next carrot in front of my nose. Not money, but some exciting thing or project. I was always busy chasing the next thing and I had never ever stopped and been alone with my thoughts, with my mind. I was always busy doing the next thing and I had never kind of stopped, quote unquote, "Being alone with my thoughts," when there's nothing to do and everything should be perfect. Everything wasn't perfect. And I realized that I trained my mind through education with knowledge, I've trained my body as an athlete, but I had never gotten to know my own mind. And it was, it was a freakish moment to realize like, "Holy shit. There's a whole thing happening."

   7. HSHarry Stebbings24:08

      (laughs)

   8. SISami Inkinen24:08

      "I've never been aware of what's happening, how it's working 'cause I've been busy doing the next thing." And so the answer to your question, that moment of the company going public, you know, I can do anything in my life, actually was the lowest point in my life. Like, absolutely, completely lowest point in my life.

7. 24:28 – 26:45

   Feeling Directionless & Seeking Clarity

   1. HSHarry Stebbings24:28

      Do you think it's 'cause you were suddenly directionless for the first time? There was no next carrot. You find you had all these nice things, a nice, a nice apartment, a wonderful wife, fit and hou- but what now?

   2. SISami Inkinen24:41

      Well, I will, first I will say, I'm glad I was married. I'm glad I had a wonderful, uh, wife and spouse for whom I'm still married to, 'cause if I was single, living in New York, suddenly a lot of money, suddenly a lot of time, and I'm feeling kind of, kinda rudderless and anxious, that would definitely would have been an optimal moment to go down the wrong path, (laughs) wrong addictions, and believe that, oh, I'm just missing something which you may be able to find from Vegas. I'm so glad I did not go, go down that path. Um, we decided to go, we as in me and my wife, we decided to go to a 10-day silent, uh, meditation retreat in Taiwan, uh, soon after, um, to address, (laughs) this, uh, th- this, this weakness. So to answer your question, and I've been a meditator ever since, so that's more than a decade ago, I had never been aware of how the mind works and what's happening there, and if the mind is running you, you're gonna be in trouble. And you can, you can kind of, um, fool yourself by basically pretending like the next thing in, like co- kind of like pretending that the next thing in, in front of your nose is the thing you have to do, but if you've never actually stopped, truly stopped, and see what's happening in your mind, uh, you are just kind of a train wreck waiting to happen. And I had literally, I had never had that moment where I would truly stop and say, "Hey, now, now I can do anything."

   3. HSHarry Stebbings26:29

      Was that very scary for you?

   4. SISami Inkinen26:30

      Absolutely. Like literally I, I was on the verge of, I, I don't think I've ever had a real panic attack, but I could feel it just panic coming over me. What, why is this happening? I should be just happy here and like-

   5. HSHarry Stebbings26:43

      (laughs)

   6. SISami Inkinen26:43

      ... levitating in air. (laughs)

8. 26:45 – 33:24

   Authenticity vs Vulnerability

   1. SISami Inkinen26:45

   2. HSHarry Stebbings26:45

      It's hard to stare at, at the demon, so to speak. Um, can I ask you, it's even harder to talk about them, uh, and I think that's a big challenge, but we're so ingrained that vulnerability's great and vulnerability's great, and if you feel it, you should say it, and I think I'd love to hear your thoughts on vulnerability versus authenticity and how you think about what they are and when the right time is.

   3. SISami Inkinen27:10

      I feel very strongly that authenticity is, is, i- is something to aspire towards 100% of the time, and sometimes it's hard. And what do I mean by that? I, I, I try to be the same, more or less the same person, um, as, as a spouse, as a friend, as a dad, uh, as a, as a CEO, as a founder, whatever, a professional. I try to be the same person. I think that's what I aspire to be, and I think that's, uh, probably, uh, a wonderful way of living your life. It's also very liberating because like this is who I am and this is kind of what I do. I'm not faking or trying to play a role or put a mask on or 15 masks on. So authenticity, I think, 100% of the time, 100% authentic. I think that's right. However, vulnerability is, is a little different beast, but d- do you have a question you were jumping in?

   4. HSHarry Stebbings28:03

      Yeah, well it's just like, did you ever feel like you were putting a mask on? Often-

   5. SISami Inkinen28:07

      Oh, 100%.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings28:09

      ... CEOs-

   7. SISami Inkinen28:09

      100%.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings28:09

      When, when was that and what mask were you putting on?

   9. SISami Inkinen28:11

      I think even coming to America, uh, you know, in my, in my 20s and being very insecure. You know, I went to Stanford for my second grad school, and starting from there you come from the potato fields of Finland and you just, like everything you're like, "Oh my god, I'm, I'm gonna, I'm not gonna be able to swim, I'm gonna sink here," so you're very insecure and just try to hide your vulnerabilities and, uh, so it's just insecurity. A- and then always trying to think like, "How do I behave here to appear as competent and confident as possible?" Which is very draining. It's extremely draining. It's horrible. So I think that's an example of not being au- au- tr- truly authentic. But then the other part of, of your question was, uh, vulnerability. Um, I think it is also superpower to be able to be vulnerable. Being 100% vulnerable in 100% situations, I think that's a recipe for disaster. Like that's absolutely a recipe for disaster. Starting from, you know, depending on what kind of bear you meet on a trail, sometimes you have to act big, loud, and noise, and pretend that they, y- so they run away, and for certain type of a bear you really just want to go down and pretend like, you know, you're dead and that's how you save your butt. So anyway, that's kind of a silly example, but it's the same thing-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings29:33

       No, I-

   11. SISami Inkinen29:33

       ... in interacting with, with, with, with humans, and so one example, you know, I'm a CEO, founder of company, 500 employees, ironic, I try to be 100% authentic 100% of the time and I also am vulnerable, but I don't want to be 100% vulnerable 100% of the time. Practical example, the team will feed off of your energy, so I don't think you want to be in front of your team and be sharing about all the issues you may have with your kids, or with your friends, or with your spouse, or, or even all your fears, um, because the team will sort of feed off of your energy. So, um, there are times when you want to be optimistic. Maybe there are times you want to be overly optimistic. I still bre- believe in authenticity, and transparency, and grounding in reality, but I, I do think that you don't, it is not optimal...... to be 100% vulnerable 100% of the time.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings30:33

       Okay. So, so question for you. Is, is, are they not conflicting? And what I mean by that is, say you're having a really hard time in the stage of the business, and it's really hard. And then you get up or you come into work and putting on the brave face and saying, "We're great. All good," whatever, it's not authentic. Or you're having a really hard time with your wife or your kids or whatever, you're struggling, is it not inauthentic to then not be transparent?

   13. SISami Inkinen31:03

       Well, it's kinda the same thing as our brain is just ran... that it's- it's just sort of a random generator machine. And this idea to say, "I- I'm gonna never lie, therefore I should be saying everything that comes to my mind," that's a stupidity. Like our brain is gonna generate... If you walk on a street and you see people, your brain's generating judging people and their looks and this and that. Um, uh, uh, to be honest and authentic doesn't mean you say everything that comes to your mind. So I don't think it's... That's kinda how I think about it. Um, you know, we have prefrontal cortex, we can decide most of the time, some of the time, what comes out of our mouth. So I don't think it's, uh, being inauthentic. Um, and then this one, I'll, I'll give you an example, like vulnerability. Like I have cried countless times in front of my, my team as a CEO. That to me is vulnerability. And, eh, there are moments when, you know, we treat people with diabetes, we reverse their disease, we save their lives and it's... They are heartbreakingly amazing stories. Heartbreaking and amazing stories that we hear from our patients. Sometimes I hear those stories and it just literally makes me cry from sort of joy and happiness and gratitude and, you know, obviously there's situation where you kind of wanna hold back and sometimes you just, you just cry. So that's one example. I've cried in front of my whole team.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings32:29

       Can you take me to a time when you've been too vulnerable and you reflect on it and you go, "Hmm, that was too vulnerable of me"?

   15. SISami Inkinen32:36

       Honestly, I don't think that's been my problem, it's been the opposite, and I'll give credit to my wife because I suddenly, you know, grew up in Finland, I'm kind of a ice man and so she has melted my, my heart to the p- to the extent that I can even feel my own emotions and feelings. So I think my issue historically has been to not feel anything, meaning I'm not... I haven't been sufficiently in, in touch with my own feelings and emotions. So I, I think my problem has been that I haven't been sufficiently vulnerable. I've, I've, eh, invested a lot of energy to not be vulnerable, so I actually, I can't even think of where I've been too vulnerable. Um, so I, I, I think I still have room to be more vulnerable, is, is my take.

9. 33:24 – 37:25

   Challenges of Working with Your Spouse

   1. SISami Inkinen33:24

   2. HSHarry Stebbings33:24

      Can I ask, does your wife work? You, you are a incredible CEO, you're also a very dedicated athlete, and you have kids. Does she work or does she look after the kids full-time?

   3. SISami Inkinen33:37

      Yes and no. And so I'll just give you... So I co-founded Virta 2014. We had no kids. Uh, we, we got our first daughter 2015, so the first year of the startup. Second one 2017. Uh, and my wife was one of the very, very first employees for, for the first six years of the company life. So we had two children, two working parents, working in the same company that was started from zero to six years and zero to, I don't know, 300 employees. And for the last two years, she has not worked full-time.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings34:18

      Was that okay working together?

   5. SISami Inkinen34:20

      It's very high beta. There's very... It's a... So amplitude is very high. It's beautiful and wonderful when you're both excited about the mission and the course and you can spend the weekends being creative, talk about ideas and so that, that's the sort of positive high beta, it's absolutely amazing. Then you have the negative, uh, high amplitude, high beta, when things aren't going well, the company scales, you have your spouse, you now has, you have sort of interpersonal issues. So I, my recommendation to everyone is, it's very high beta, I would probably advise against because then you have too many eggs in the same basket. And if things go sideways, you can destroy your most important personal relationship in a process. So the cost of that, I would argue, is way too much for the joys and ups that you can have while creating something together. And one of the reasons, I can't speak on behalf of my, my spouse, but one of the reasons she decided that, "Okay, time is up. Six years was great," was, I think, uh, the risks of, uh, damaging our relationship were just increasing.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings35:34

      She just got fed up with you Sami. She thought, "Fuck, 24 hours with this guy. God, it's too much." Can I ask you, did it enable you to be a better operator when she became a full-time parent because it meant that you were enabled in a way that you weren't before?

   7. SISami Inkinen35:49

      She's absolutely amazing, but I, I think she would admit that we outsourced too much of childcare during those first six years of the, the life of our kids. So it did not fundamentally change how I've operated as, as a, as a CEO, but our kids probably took the short end of the stick for six years.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings36:15

      Do you regret that?

   9. SISami Inkinen36:16

      It is what it is. Um, yeah, I... You know, they're wonderful kids. Um, I just did a one-on-one trip with the ADO to my native Finland over the, the holiday weekend and I, uh, tried to do my best, but, uh, yeah, I'll be-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings36:32

       Yeah.

   11. SISami Inkinen36:32

       ... more honest. I, I think we both feel that.You know, having nannies raise your kids is not optimal.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings36:42

       I get you, but I'm also gonna be kind to you. You are running a, a 300 person plus company at the time, what do you want? You can't have everything, and so what would you have done differently with the benefit of hindsight? Not be as ambitious and not be such a good operator, but be there for the kids?

   13. SISami Inkinen37:02

       Yeah. It's, it's, it's, it's, it's tough to say. Um, but by- but I w- I will say that, um, if you have an amazing spouse, and one of them has a more flexible schedule, it's, it's probably very helpful for the kids and, and for the relationship. We're both kind of six and a half days a week all in, with lots of travel and it's a lot. It's a lot.

10. 37:25 – 48:10

    Secrets to a Great Marriage

    1. SISami Inkinen37:25

    2. HSHarry Stebbings37:25

       Can I ask you, you've spoken a lot about your wife and the role that she's played. What does... What, what are the secrets to a great marriage in your mind? Having had a such a great relationship that's been such a support to you for many years?

    3. SISami Inkinen37:38

       You test your spouse by rowing across the Pacific Ocean and see if you both, uh, survive and you still wanna be married after that. (laughs)

    4. HSHarry Stebbings37:47

       Why did you do this? And, and just talk to me about it, like what did you learn about each other from rowing across the Pacific Ocean together?

    5. SISami Inkinen37:57

       Yeah. (laughs)

    6. HSHarry Stebbings37:59

       It's not normal.

    7. SISami Inkinen38:00

       Yes ..............................

    8. HSHarry Stebbings38:00

       I mean, like-

    9. SISami Inkinen38:01

       Just for context, so, so yeah, in summer of 2014 from Monterey, California we hopped into a row boat, 20 foot roughly row boat, unsupported, um, rowed across the Pacific Ocean, 2,700 nautical miles to, to Hawaii, 45 days, three hours with your spouse, um, (laughs) all the time your, your bathroom is a bucket and then you throw it, you know, o- o- overboard. Ah, so, so that, that was kinda the context. Very, very briefly, the, the reasoning for the adventure was, is, part of it was just an adventure. But the course that we were rowing for was raising awareness around dangers of poor nutrition and particularly sugar, so that was kind of the course, um, why we did it. But what, in terms of learnings with your spouse, honestly it was... So many things happened, uh, it's just like absolutely life transforming in, in, in many ways. I'll, I'll just mention a few things. I'll start with the biggest one. So we had no children going in. We are seven days into the row, we're rowing 18 hours a day, basically non-stop trying to sleep five hours or so a- a day. We're seven days into the row and I, I tell my wife, I said, "Hey, wow. Th- this is an amazing experience but I've been wondering, what is there truly to human experience? What is there truly to life? I honestly think there's nothing bigger and better than having a family, having children. I f- I feel like we should have a family." She looks at me and says, "I- I can't believe I've been thinking about the exact same thing for the last 24 hours." And we got married with this mutual understanding that maybe kids, maybe not, but life's too good, at this, at the time, to mess it up with, with children. So that was one thing, like literally it, within a 24 hour window, this feeling of as a human, w- what is there to do? What's the... Do you want to have your name on the side of a hospital? Do you wanna build three companies, sponsor pro- whatever you want to do, be this, write a book, like I, it just hit me, all those stuff, you know, fine and good if you enjoy the process of creating those, but it is so shallow. So shallow. Having children is the thing. So, so that was one thing. We came out of the boat, in fact we tried on the boat but let's leave the details aside. We came off the boat in Hawaii-

    10. HSHarry Stebbings40:35

        No that was gonna be, that was gonna be my question. Can you sh- can you shag on a rowing boat?

    11. SISami Inkinen40:40

        You, you can but it's not very hot, let's put it this way.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings40:44

        (laughs)

    13. SISami Inkinen40:45

        Our first child was born just about nine months after we landed in Hawaii. Just about nine months. The second thing is, probably the sweetest moment in my life ever, has been hopping off the boat on Waikiki Beach and giving a hug to my wife after 45 days and three hours of rowing, and knowing that there's only one person in the world who knows exactly what we went through, the pain, the suffering, the fears, and that's my wife. There's only one person in the world who knows exactly what we went through. She went through it. And knowing she could get through that. That feeling and trust, that, it was just pure sweetness to give her a hug and know that if we can get through that, and we have that shared experience, you need quite an obstacle that two of us will crack and fall apart in the following decades. And so that was the second thing, it was just like, "Holy shit, this is an amazing experience we have and we both get through it." We've seen each other tired, stressed, anxious, about to fall apart, fearful, and we could just kind of come together and, and overcome all those obstacles.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings42:13

        What was the biggest argument you had on the trip? 45 days, that is a long time you only see each other.

    15. SISami Inkinen42:19

        (laughs)

    16. HSHarry Stebbings42:19

        What was the biggest argument?

    17. SISami Inkinen42:21

        So this is kind of an argument but, so, so one of the things you have is a lot of time and you have a captive audience, you can't escape, you can't be like, "Come on, I'm, I'm angry, I'm gonna walk that way, you walk that way and let's talk about this in a week." No, you, you have both captive audience. So we had a lot of time to feel the airwaves...... and come up with ideas. We talked about how do you come up with mid- you know, peace in Middle East? What would you do if you were president of this and that count- all kinds of topics. And then one of the topics my lovely wife threw at me said, "You know what? If you didn't marry me, which one of our friends would you marry?"

    18. HSHarry Stebbings43:02

        (laughs) Oh, no, Sami. Don't answer that question.

    19. SISami Inkinen43:05

        And as an-

    20. HSHarry Stebbings43:06

        Don't.

    21. SISami Inkinen43:06

        ... as an, as an engineer, uh, and a person driven by task completion, I was like, "Wonderful. That's a great question. Let me think and analyze this."

    22. HSHarry Stebbings43:20

        Sarah. Sarah.

    23. SISami Inkinen43:21

        Okay.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings43:21

        I've always fancied Sarah. (laughs)

    25. SISami Inkinen43:24

        So, uh, yeah, I, I stepped into the mind and, uh, I, I, I took the bite and that, that was probably ... there was some, lots of material, lots of material, uh, for the conversations that followed on subsequent days. And, and my, my, mostly my wife was upset that I chose the person that she had a way better recommendation. But, uh, anyways, that was the, (laughs) that was-

    26. HSHarry Stebbings43:49

        Oh, wow.

    27. SISami Inkinen43:50

        ... biggest argument.

    28. HSHarry Stebbings43:51

        Can I ask, was it hard to lose romanticism from it? Was that challenging to lose the just slight element of mysteriousness?

    29. SISami Inkinen44:00

        Going back to authenticity and, and vulnerability, there's something when you live through experiences like that, there's just something that brings you closer with the other person. Masks go away, so like literally and figuratively. Masks go away. There's no, it's like this is the raw essence of the person and so I, I think, in the end, those types of experience are actually, um, more positive than negative.

    30. HSHarry Stebbings44:32

        Did you have moments when you thought, "I can't do this. I, I cannot do this"?
11. 48:10 – 51:25

    Losing Passion & Knowing When to Quit

    1. SISami Inkinen48:10

    2. HSHarry Stebbings48:10

       But, but, but that's not enough, sadly. You know, markets can kill you. Uh, shit GTM can kill you. Lack of funding can kill you. There are many things other than a founder giving up that kills you, I've learned. Now, you, there's a question of if you invest in great founders, they find the market, they find the product, which I don't agree with either. There's great founders who fuck up for several years doing something that they shouldn't do.

    3. SISami Inkinen48:37

       Yeah. No. I, I, I, I, I cannot disagree with that. But the pre- basic, uh, premise still is that as long as you're breathing, the company has money, so it's, it's not defaulting or in, in bankruptcy.There's always hope, as long as you keep going. Um, so anyways, uh, it's- it's a philosophical thing where, like, you should never give up, but there's obviously a point in time where you're literally just wasting your time or you- you're cutting trees in the wrong forest. But to know that objectively is very, very hard, because you always have these stories. "Oh, we were building a gaming company and then it turned into a Slack." You always have these stories where, uh, oh, you know Elon, like all the chips on the table, like, "I'm kind of reverse mortgaging my house and Friendsgiving," and you- you've got these stories, these anomalies, um, but obviously those could be very detrimental decisions in another context.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings49:31

       Have you ever felt like, "I just don't want to do this anymore"? Like, "Actually, I- I just I don't have the passion anymore for it."

    5. SISami Inkinen49:38

       Yeah, I'll give you two examples. Uh, so yes is- is the answer. I think, um, Trulia is- is basically, is an easy example to start briefly. So when we were in the process of going public, I realized that it started to feel like a job, and I could not feel a deeper connection to the cause or the mission. In fact, I didn't- I wasn't even sure what was the mission of the company, because we had not really set the mission as- as founders. And I felt like the reasons for starting, which was, "Let's build something in Silicon Valley, and if we get investors and million..." Look, how cool would it be as an immigrant to build a product, build a business, get invest- investors, make it successful, and we kind of had done that. We had 1,000 plus employees, you know, whatever, 100 million plus revenues and 10s of millions of people using it, the company's about to go public, and I'm like, "We've done it!" But it's like job now, and I- I literally just was not excited to do it anymore. And so I decided to step away from my operational role, and obviously when a company goes public, you sign up for... You get a whole new set of investors and you sign up for the next decade, and I was like, "I just cannot see it happening." And so- so that was one. And by the way, there was a lesson for myself, which I've- I've really taken to heart with Virta Health, which is, you better set a mission as a founder that motivates even you, and it's a clear North Star why you're doing it. Um, and w- which isn't just like, "Oh, I'm excited today." That's a cool thing. So anyways, that's one example. Practically, I- I just lost it, uh, and I just wanted to be very clear about

12. 51:25 – 55:34

    Tying Identity to Company

    1. SISami Inkinen51:25

       it.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings51:25

       I like founders where they don't have a next chapter. Like, if you ask me what I'm doing next, I'm dead. Right? I don't mean that stupidly, but I- I want 20VC to be the ongoing vehicle for the rest of my life. We will have new shows, new funds, new people, but 20... I- I am 20VC and it is me. Do you think I'm wrong? Do you think I'll miss out on great founders if I have that approach?

    3. SISami Inkinen51:51

       No, I- I- I actually absolutely agree, and people sometimes ask me, like, "Well, what do you think you're going to do next, or what's your next..." And truly, the- the honest answer is, that's ridiculous. That's like asking, "Who will you marry next? Who's the girlfriend you have on a hopper that you're gonna marry next?" And that's a ridiculous answer. I agree with you, this idea that, "No, I have a list of three, I- I'm just looking for someone to buy this and then I'm going to..."

    4. HSHarry Stebbings52:19

       Okay.

    5. SISami Inkinen52:19

       Right? I personally... I would feel very dissatisfied with- with my life, uh, with that. Um, so I don't know, I- I agree with you.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings52:29

       The question I have then is people go, "Gosh, that's- that's terribly unhealthy to tie so much of your identity up in your company."

    7. SISami Inkinen52:36

       So tying your identity to your company, it is a natural process. It happens to almost all founders. But you have to hedge against this. I feel very strongly about this. You have to hedge against it. And here's how I do it, and- and I'll explain why. I think you want to consciously cultivate different identities in your brain, whether that's being a parent... Like, in my- in my case, there's three things I allocate time. Being the CEO of Virta, trying to reverse diabetes globally. As a parent, spouse, kind of family person, friends, and then an athlete. So I have a very strong athlete identity in- in- in my mind. So I, you know, race and cycling and mountain biking and stuff like that. So I consciously cultivate different identities that are kind of non-correlated with my founder identity, and I think it's very, very important for everyone. And here's why. There's actually num- number of reasons, but when things are going up and to the right in- in your, say, company, it's sort of wonderful, like, "I am the company, I'm everything," but that never lasts forever. Never. And so, if you don't have other identities, the moments when things really hit the wall, it- you- you are very likely to crumble and crack. And I knock on wood here, I've been a founder operator now 25 years. I haven't cracked, and I have too many friends who've completely cracked mentally, emotionally. And I don't know, maybe that happens to me tomorrow or tonight, like I- I don't know. I- it's not granted. But one way to protect against cracking is that you have multiple identities. And here's the second reason. You cultivate multiple identities, although fundamentally they are all stories, but the stories work. And the second reason is, it's easier to take risks, calculated risks, and taking risks as a growth company founder is absolutely critical to succeed. Almost like every couple of years you need to bet the company on something.... to keep, kind of, winning and succeeding, and it's very easy as you grow and get further to become more risk-averse. And I find that when you are sort of detached, appropriately detached, but passionate about your cause, it's easier to put everything on the line again, when you're like, "Well, this is not everything." And so I find that cultivating multiple identities is very, very healthy for every single founder, because if you don't do that, it- it's very easy, you and your company, you are the thing, and that's all you have, and I think that's very dangerous.

13. 55:34 – 59:50

    Protecting Against Burnout

    1. HSHarry Stebbings55:34

       Uh, speaking of dangerous, I am just intrigued. You said there about, kind of, friends around you who've burnt out, who have really struggled and cracked. When you look at them, what are the commonalities amongst them that made them crack, do you think? And for founders listening, wanting to go, "Oh, gosh, I don't want that to be me," what do you say to them?

    2. SISami Inkinen55:51

       I'm no doctor, I'm no psychologist, and I don't play one on the internet, so take this with a grain of- (laughs) a grain of salt. Rather than saying what are the commonalities in those, I'll- I'll- I'll share what I have done, what I think is important, and usually people are lacking those things, I- I think. So this is sort of three or four things that I very consciously invest time. One is foundation of health, like, I treat myself like an Olympic athlete basically, and this mind and body, to me, it's just all biology. It's just one and the same thing. So, this is a simple example, like, if you don't sleep enough, like, oh my God, everything unravels, like, you're so more likely to become depressed and crack and whatnot.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings56:34

       How much time do you sleep?

    4. SISami Inkinen56:35

       Uh, I track my sleep, uh, every d- I'd say I probably... I average between seven and eight hours for the course of a week, and sometimes there's, you know, like last night I think it was 6.1 hours. Sometimes just crazy things happen, travel is four hours, but, like, I try to get to the seven to eight average over the course of a week. Sometimes I even cancel morning meetings if I'm, like, too far and I need to, like, get nine hours or something's of sleep. But anyways, that's one of the things. There's one area, the foundation of health, and it's very easy to be 22, you're like, "Ah, I'm hardcore. I'm just pulling all-nighters," or whatever, and I- do not do that. So, one is foundation of health. To be able to be a founder 10 years, 15 years, 20 years, like, there's no way that's gonna work, you know, with- with all-nighters. And- and just to give you an example, if you're an Olympic athlete, you have Olympic Games tomorrow, you are not gonna go party and pull an all-nighter the night before. That would be s- absolute stupidity. If- if you're a CEO, you're a founder, you have to treat yourself like an Olympic athlete, so this- that's one, foundation of health. Second one is what I already mentioned, I think cultivating multiple identities is so, so critical. Uh, absolutely critical. The third one is having a trusted group of people who is not your spouse where you can put your, uh, let your short hair down and completely be vulnerable, authentic. To me, it's been the YPO, so Young Professionals Organization. I've been part of The Forum for, since, uh, 2008, 16 years. We meet for four hours every month. In fact, I had my forum meeting yesterday. We talk about personal, family business. So you have other CEOs who have no financial interest or anything in your company, not your VCs, not your board members, where you can absolutely let your hair down and you can... that's where you can cry on other shoulder and be absolutely, 100% authentic and tell all the crap that's falling apart. Uh, having that kind of a trusted group of people, particular for men I think it's harder, is an absolutely key thing. You need trusted... And this isn't just the, you know, a CEO buddy that you meet at a conference and you're kind of like, "How's it going?" High five. "Awesome." No, it's, like, the raw shit that's going on in your life. You need that kind of a group.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings58:55

       Why do you think it's harder for men? I'm intrigued on that.

    6. SISami Inkinen58:58

       Well, I- I- I'm- I'm just, uh, quoting my, uh, my lovely wife, who, uh, keeps telling me that we women, we- we have way more, sort of, trusted friendships where we openly share, so I'm- I'm taking that, uh, as- as a fact from her. Uh, I think, anyways, this is stereotypes, but I- I think men have more, like, casual friends who are, like, really good buddies but don't necessarily go four layers deeper, and, like, honestly, let me just tell you, like, you know, I don't know, like, I still cry 'cause my dad never gave me whatever pat- pat on the back or whatnot. So I, I don't know. I- I might be wrong, but, uh, I think on average, I think men have more buddies, but it's not that authentic and vulnerable necessarily, but having a group like a YPO forum is incredibly helpful.

14. 59:50 – 1:06:18

    Being a Great Father

    1. SISami Inkinen59:50

    2. HSHarry Stebbings59:50

       Final one before we do a quick fire, I'm intrigued, you know, you mentioned a little bit that, you know, you outsourced a lot parenting-wise in the first six years, and now, you know, your wife obviously is full time. I'm intrigued, just what does being a great father mean to you, and were you nervous being so on and so addictive mindset-wise that you would not be able to be a great operator when you have this incredible responsibility of children?

    3. SISami Inkinen1:00:17

       I was not. And- and by the way, I read and I hear a lot about that, "Well, I'm not gonna be such a great CEO." Wait a second, you- you really have to take a step back and ask what is there to life, and what am I here optimizing? And I was so convinced that the greatest thing I can experience as a human is to be a parent after our role that I never questioned the fact that we want to have kids and how that's going to affect other parts of life. Like, I was so convinced that that is the right thing to do, and then everything else will fall into place.... around it, so I, I personally have no kind of... And obviously it changes, and pe- y- th- you know, people create stories like, "Well, because I'm a parent, I'm actually a better leader." It's like, maybe I am, maybe I'm worse. I, honestly, I don't care. It is very clear to me, I want to be a parent, I wanted to have kids, I'm very grateful I have two wonderful daughters, and whatever the implications of that are on my other parts of life, then be it. Uh, I can tell a story, I can do beautiful story how I'm a better CEO because I have kids, maybe I am, I might be, but I might be worse too. I, I don't know.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:35

       Did your marriage change post having kids?

    5. SISami Inkinen1:01:38

       Well, certainly on a, on a practical level, it's, you, you go from incredibly kind of selfish, hedonistic in some ways, like, you just, the world is your oyster. "Oh, Friday evening, let's hop into plane and have 48 hours in there," or whatever, it's that sort of spontaneity, uh, practicality t- changes, but, um, relationship wise, uh, i- it's... Well, let me take a step back. I would say, I th- uh, personally, I've been married now since, uh, let's see, uh, 14 years, uh, or 13 years, soon 14. I think having joint projects, whether that's sort of self-development, self-discovery, children, having joint projects, not just completely independent, having joint projects is incredibly helpful in, in, in, in a marriage. And children can be one of those, where you're kind of together, you're learning and stumbling, and I, I think it's wonderful. It's, it's actually very, very helpful. That's not the only joint project we've had. Obviously, we've had in a professional context, and, you know, some things, sort of personal development. And I, I think it's, it's wonderful to have joint projects where you're on a journey together, there is no destination, there's no arriving, it's like a lifelong journey, um, is, is actually very helpful, positive thing in a relationship.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:02

       Can I be really, really harsh? You have fun-

    7. SISami Inkinen1:03:05

       Sure.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:06

       ... you have respect, you have honesty, and you have sex. Rank them one to four. Fun-

    9. SISami Inkinen1:03:14

       (gasps)

    10. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:14

        ... respect, honesty, sex. Four.

    11. SISami Inkinen1:03:19

        Wait, wait. Rank them as in how important are they?

    12. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:24

        Yeah.

    13. SISami Inkinen1:03:25

        In, in, in a relationship with your, uh, with your spouse? Um, all I remember is six, so th- say them again. honesty-

    14. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:35

        (laughs)

    15. SISami Inkinen1:03:35

        ... sex-

    16. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:35

        Fun (laughs) ... fun, respect, honesty, sex.

    17. SISami Inkinen1:03:44

        Actually, I think respect is probably the one, at least for me. Being in a relationship with someone th- that I could like truly... I'm, "Wow, I respect this person. I'm learning from her," I th-... That carries a lot of things. And I'd say the other, um... Yeah, I think the other three are equal, right after, but I th- I think the respect is the most important thing. I can't imagine being in a relationship with someone where I'm like, I don't know, l- c- like, judging in my mind, like, "Wow, this person isn't smart enough or thoughtful," and I'm not learning, or, "Wow, this p-" like, I just... If you have this visceral feeling like, "Oh my God," like...

    18. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:26

        You can't do one and then three.

    19. SISami Inkinen1:04:28

        Maybe the honesty is... well, that depends how you define it. Uh, may- maybe that is the last one, like honesty in the sense that, you know, you don't always say everything that comes to your mind. I would put fun... Yeah, it's probably the second one, and I, I... Well, one of the, the, the reasons I fell in love with my, uh, with my wife is, first time we met, you know, it's like Thursday afternoon, we come off the car, about to go to our first date, and she starts dancing on a parking lot in, in San Francisco at like, whatever, 6:00 PM on a Thursday, just dan- And for my, you know, Finnish kind of ice man, I, uh, just look at it and I go, "Wait a second. Wait a second. Life can be fun anytime, anywhere." And it was just incredible. I realized like, wow, I... the story that I believed in, that life is a grind and serious and hard and... Wow, that is a very, very limited way of looking at the world and your life. So, I d- I put fun very high, high up there. And, um, she has taught me so much about, uh, human experience and how amazing it can be, and not taking yourself too seriously and, and choosing the games you play very carefully and just making every, every, every moment fun. Uh, and then physical attraction is... obviously it's, it's very important, but it doesn't really, you know, it doesn't really carry you over decades, I would say, if that's the only thing or, or the number one thing.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:04

        I, I, I totally agree. I think you've s- maintained some very good brownie points with this interview, by the way. So, I think you've done a great job. Uh-

    21. SISami Inkinen1:06:11

        Oh (laughs) .

    22. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:12

        Yeah, yeah. You're, you're in good shape. Don't worry. Anyone listening to this will be like, "Ah, good guy, good guy." Um,

15. 1:06:18 – 1:13:36

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:18

       listen, I wanna move into a quick fire round, so I say a short statement, you give me your-

    2. SISami Inkinen1:06:22

       Sure.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings1:06:22

       ... immediate thoughts. We're gonna start with a tough one, which is, what have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

    4. SISami Inkinen1:06:29

       I am even less convinced... In fact, I'm absolutely convinced that willpower doesn't exi- uh, um, uh, free will doesn't exist, um. We have sort of a, a, a separate entity that, um, uh, makes, makes decisions, um, that is not tied into the deterministic world. I'm very convinced that that is an illusion, and it's a very, very, very believable illusion, uh, in, in, in our minds, but it is an illusion. I've become even more convinced that that is the case. And, uh, it brings humility to realize that, um...... every, uh, human being is, is worthy and however they behave, it gives you humility to just think about it's their wiring and the circumstances that, uh, affect their decisions, not that there's a bad rider on the horse that somehow is inherently bad. So I, I think it gives me a lot of empathy and humility to think about. Look at the world through that, uh, through that kind of lens, and other sentient beings walking around, uh, and how they behave, why, why they behave, and, um, yeah, so I, I think that's one.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings1:07:48

       You said before you treat your body like an athlete or an Olympian. What does the Sami Inkinen diet look like?

    6. SISami Inkinen1:07:55

       (laughs) There's, there's three things you don't ... it's kind of the, the rules of Fighter Club, you don't talk about in America: politics, religion, and diets, if you want to make friends. Politics, religion, diets. I'm very hesitant to, uh, to talk about that. I ... here, here's kind of how I eat. Uh, I eat when I'm hungry. So that's number one thing. Two, I try to eat as much as real food. Uh, and if you're wondering, is something real food? It probably isn't 'cause you know what real food is. And then the third one is, uh, outside of exercise, there's practically no sugar or processed carbohydrates. Uh, so that's kind of the three things. I eat when I'm hungry, not at set times. Mostly, whenever I can, just real food, and then thirdly, um, no sugar and you don't really find sort of obvious carbohydrates in my diet.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings1:08:48

       The best founders do not need their VCs. Agree or disagree?

    8. SISami Inkinen1:08:53

       It's false and here's why. Uh, the best founders recognize that this bundle, what VCs often deliver is a bundle of three things: capital, advice, and for better or worse, on the board, governance. Capital, advice, governance, often is a bundle and you can't un-bundle it. The best founders consciously choose a bundle that is very helpful for them even if they are capable of doing anything el- and they want to make the most out of it rather than to say, "I'm just gonna take the money," 'cause you usually get the bundle for free. So you, you, you choose carefully. Uh, so, so that's why I say false.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings1:09:39

       What are the biggest mistakes you see other founders make in fundraising? It could be size, it could be valuation, it could be wrong investor, it could be whatever that may be.

    10. SISami Inkinen1:09:50

        They make it too transactional. (laughs) By the way, I do a lot of angel invest in this, uh, 'cause you, you really, it's easier to get rid of your co-founder than your, uh, VC and on, on the board, so too transactional, uh, and I'll, I'll give you an example and this is sort of a silly example, but as an angel investor, I don't know, maybe Y Combinator or somebody teaches people this, like, I get these emails like, "Oh, I'd so love to have you on a cap table. Uh, so-and-so name is already there. Um, there's no space absolutely, but I can just make space for you and, uh, but unfortunately I, I, I need the answer by 4:00 PM today." And it's a, it sounds like maybe ChatGPT gives this template where, you know, they give a famous name, sense of urgency, and then this is a special thing for you. Ridiculously, ridiculously transactional and it turns me off so bad even if I wanted to help the founder and even if I wanted to help the company. So I, I think one is just making it too transactional.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings1:10:47

        Can I ask you for some advice? So I, I, I met this founder earlier this week. My partner was like, "Hey, we've got to meet him as a super hot deal," and it's like five on 25. I mean, five on 25, I was like, "Ugh." But I was like, "Okay, fine." First five minutes he's like, "Listen, love you, love 20 VC, but we, you know, we, we need to decide by the end of the week." And I'm like, "Great. Thank you so much and cool," is basically what I'm thinking bluntly. Uh, it's a 10-year relationship and I need to decide in two days having never met you. Am I right or do you say, Harry, as a founder, suck it up. You need to move fast and make decisions?

    12. SISami Inkinen1:11:27

        The truth is somewhere in the middle. As a principle and a foundational principle, I do think that, um, you know, it's, it's a longterm relationship, it's very long-term relationship and drawing the line and like, okay, well, if that's what you want, like, sorry, we won't, won't do it. And by the way, I think, you know, in 2021 and maybe '22 or it'll be 2020, I think there were a lot of people who are like, "Ah, we should have done some DD and take the time to get to know the founder and, and their morals and ethics and backgrounds and for, you know, backgrounds and so forth."

    13. HSHarry Stebbings1:12:04

        Okay, Sami, final one for you. 10 years time, where's Sami Inkinen then and where's Virta then?

    14. SISami Inkinen1:12:10

        For context, I think what we are trying to do, which is really addressing obesity and type 2 diabetes by actually making people healthy, unlike wonderful companies like Novo Nordisk that are selling drugs to treat the symptoms of diabetes and obesity. I think this journey of helping potentially billion plus people restore their metabolic health by addressing obesity and diabetes, that's like a 30 plus year journey. I- or more. Like, I don't think this work is ever done. So I think we are somewhere on that trajectory. Hopefully we are a global company. Uh, hopefully we are a counterbalance to a company like Novo Nordisk that's selling drugs to treat symptoms of these diseases. Hopefully we are known as the, um, lifestyle treatment version of Novo- Novo Nordisk that is addressing the root cause of type 2 diabetes and obesity and sort of globally known as a company that's doing good. I, hopefully we are there and hopefully I'm still playing some kind of a key role, um, in, in the company's growth and success. That's kind of how I'd like it to be.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings1:13:23

        Sami, you, you are a star. I love doing this. Thank you so much for joining me. I can't believe it's been seven years, but you've been amazing.

    16. SISami Inkinen1:13:31

        Well, thank you, Harry. Very much enjoyed it and hopefully we'll, we can have the next one in, uh, less than seven years.

Episode duration: 1:13:36