Shreyas Doshi: The 6 Product Metrics You Need To Know; The 3 Types of Product Leader | E913

1. 0:00 – 0:28

   Intro

   1. SDShreyas Doshi0:00

      (beeping) Three, two, one, zero. You have now arrived at your destination.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:08

      Shreyas, this is such a joy to do. I've been a fan of yours from afar on Twitter for a while, but thank you so much for joining me today.

   3. SDShreyas Doshi0:15

      Thanks for having me, Harry.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:17

      Not at all. As I said, I've loved some of your Twitter threads and they've been pretty informative to me. Uh, but let's start with a little bit on you. So you've been part of some of the most incredible orgs from Stripe, Twitter,

2. 0:28 – 2:48

   How did you make your way into the world of product?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:28

      Google. How did you make your way into the world of product first? And let's start there.

   2. SDShreyas Doshi0:33

      Yeah, so I started my career, uh, back in, uh, the difficult, tough days, uh, of the Valley, uh, this was 2001, uh, as an engineer. And as an engineer here in California who needed a visa, uh, it was very difficult to get jobs back then. It was like drastically different environment than the one we found ourselves in over the last decade. Uh, and so I was lucky enough though to, uh, you know, join some really great teams, uh, early on in my career as an engineer. And, uh, I moved to Silicon Valley in 2003, uh, to join, uh, a team that used to formally be Loudcloud, uh, the Marc Andreessen, Ben Horowitz company. Uh, and, uh, when I was there, I got introduced to product management, uh, mainly because, uh, uh, I found myself, uh, getting sent to customer interviews and customer meetings and whatnot by my manager, and I didn't quite understand why, uh, because I was just an engineer, very early career. Uh, but I think my managers back then saw in s- something in me that I did not, uh, yet. Uh, so, uh, s- and, and I found myself getting very interested in, um, uh, learning about what customers are doing with the product and, and particularly coming up with, you know, more creative solutions, uh, about, uh, you know, to solve the customer problems. And that's when I realized that, uh, you know, maybe I should, uh, try this product management thing.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings2:04

      (laughs)

   4. SDShreyas Doshi2:04

      A- and so, uh, traditionally back then, uh, most people would do their MBA, uh, uh, b- in order to get into product management, and I decided I did not want to do that. I considered it, but I decided I did not want to do that. And I just said, "Oh, let me just apply to some, uh, consumer internet companies." Uh, Web 2.0 was big back then, and I wanted to work on web products, and so I applied to a few companies, and, uh, talked to Google, Yahoo at the time, Yahoo during its better days. And that was my first, uh, uh, real product management experience is when I joined Yahoo, uh, as a product manager back in 2006. Uh, and then since then, it's been a really fun ride.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings2:44

      There's a lot that I just wanna unpack. I wanna, wanna start with just some nomenclature.

3. 2:48 – 5:00

   How do you define “Product Management”?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings2:48

      Product management is thrown about quite a lot as a term. When I say product management to you, Shreyas, how do you define it?

   2. SDShreyas Doshi2:57

      Yeah, I love that question because, um, um, there are many definitions of product management. And, uh, so my definition is product management is the art, science, and practice of making successful products and making products successful. Okay? So there are two aspects here, and it's not just a play on words. Both are very important. Making successful products-

   3. HSHarry Stebbings3:23

      Yeah.

   4. SDShreyas Doshi3:24

      ... uh, means that you often have to start with, uh, nothing, and then make a successful product. Uh, and so that's kinda the early stage to reaching product market fit and beyond scaling. Uh, so, uh, uh, so, so that's one aspect of it. The other aspect, which is making products successful, uh, is when, say, there is a product, uh, that already exists, and maybe, you know, you weren't there at the beginning, uh, but it's, uh, at a stage where it's either poised for a lot of growth or, or it's not. Uh, maybe it's even a turnaround story. Uh, and, uh, uh, product management, again, is the art, science, and practice of, uh, actually making that happen, right? And, um, you know, when I, when I share this, Harry, a lot of times people will, uh, ask me, "Oh, but wait. What is success? Can you define success for me?" Uh, and so my view of success is it's not complicated, product success. Uh, you need to start with three things, uh, to begin evaluating product success, which is, uh, user adoption, customer satisfaction, and business impact, right? Ultimately, any product, uh, you need to start with each of these three or a subset of these three to determine product success. Now, the exact metric may vary depending on your product, depending on its stage and whatnot. Uh, but ultimately building successful products is about user adoption, customer satisfaction, and business impact.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings4:59

      This is where I love the show

4. 5:00 – 8:57

   What metrics to follow for user adoption?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings5:00

      because like this was never obviously structured. (laughs) Um, like user adoption is the first one. There are so many different metrics that one can choose as a focus point. You know, I, I speak to many who have number of users. And I'm like, "No, no, no. We don't wanna grow users as much as possible. That's not a sign of product market fit." What is is number of sessions per day, number of tasks created. I don't care about top line growth of users, but the tasks that they do to signify their product love. How do you think about like finding the right metric within user adoption when there are so many?

   2. SDShreyas Doshi5:37

      Yeah. Uh, uh, so I think metrics is a highly misunderstood, uh, concept and, uh, there's just so much, uh, nuance to it, uh, that, you know, this kind of question gets, um, debated endlessly within many companies, including extremely successful companies. It's like, what's the right metric? And let's do a bunch of these meetings to make it happen.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings6:01

      (laughs)

   4. SDShreyas Doshi6:01

      Um, and i- i- and i- and, and it's not, it's not because it's, uh, easy. It's not. It's not easy. Uh, but, uh...I think we need a, you know, a more fundamental view here when we talk about things like, uh, you know, u- user metrics and user adoption and those types of things. So, so the way I look at it, Harry, is, um, I think overall, product metri- metrics fall in, uh, about six categories. So, that's a good place to start, uh, and they are, uh, health metrics, usage metrics, adoption metrics, satisfaction metrics, ecosystem metrics and outcome metrics. Okay? So, we don't need to get into each of these, uh, six and, uh, I have some articles that we can throw into the sho- show notes if folks are more interested in these. Uh, but, uh, but first thing you need to recognize is that there isn't, like, one metric. Like, there are many different types of metrics or categories of metrics that you need to be cognizant of. Um, now, you know, one of these metrics is, uh, adoption metrics, right? So a- and that's where we get into things like user adoption, user growth and those st- sorts of things. Um, o- one thing to observe about adoption metrics is that adoption doesn't happen on its own, right? Like, there needs- need to be certain conditions, like pre-conditions that need to be satisfied so you can get to adoption. Uh, so when I'm talking to an early stage, uh, team, product or startup, uh, and we are talking about adoption, uh, I often encourage them to have some sort of a North Star on adoption, whatever that is. Whether it's, uh, you know, a number of active users or, um, or, or, or users that are, uh, retained or new user sign-ups. Those are all v- variants of adoption metrics. Uh, so, so that's fine, but, uh, I think it's even more important l- like, a lot of teams just stop there. A lot of teams say, "Okay, this is our adoption metric and now we are going to make it better." Uh, and that's the mistake. The mistake there is, again, adoption is an end result of something else you do. So, you're better off measuring, um, those, those things, those other things. And that's where things like usage metrics come in, or, or even health metrics come in. So, usage metric, uh, is about how people are actually using the product, right? A- and a lot of teams, uh, don't actually have a lot of visibility into that. Only if you understand what type of usage leads to adoption, uh, will you actually be able to, uh, address the inputs 'cause in some ways, adoption is the output of your activities.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings8:43

      Absolutely, it's that-

   6. SDShreyas Doshi8:44

      So-

   7. HSHarry Stebbings8:44

      ... this is always what frustrates me when they give me like output metrics and it's like, "No, no-"

   8. SDShreyas Doshi8:48

      Yeah.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings8:48

      "... I want input metrics. I want number of tasks created in Notion, number of new projects, number of net new editions to each project in terms of sharing

5. 8:57 – 11:00

   What are “Health Metrics”?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings8:57

      capabilities." C- what was health metrics, Shreyas?

   2. SDShreyas Doshi9:01

      Yeah, health metrics are, uh, you know, another way to define it is like they're hygiene metrics. Uh, and the key, uh, the way I like to describe a metric is like what key question is this category of metric answering, right? So, with health metrics, the key question that it's answering is, is this product available and performing in the manner that users would reasonably expect, right? So y- users are not using your product in isolation. They use many different products and human beings compare how your product does compare to other things that they are used to using. And so, you know, users implicitly tend to have a certain type of expectation for the, for the type of product you are. And those expectations vary. If I'm using an e-commerce product, my expectations are very different than if I'm using a social product versus if I'm using some internal, uh, you know, enterprise product, as just an example. Um, so is this product available and performing in the manners that users would reasonably expect is the key question. And some examples of health metrics are latency, uh, initial load time, uh, data loss rate, errors that you see. So, these are things that are really important, uh, for you to, uh, uh, keep track of because oftentimes, you know, we, we fixate on sort of the, the growth funnel and all of those things. And if we lose sight of, like, basics that we're not getting right in the product, uh, that are perhaps not very evident, um, then we might wonder why, you know, adoption is not where we want it to be. Um, so, so that's kinda how I look at health metrics, and, you know, health metrics by themselves will rarely drive your business forward. But health metrics, if you don't pay attention to them, can, uh, drastically impede your business.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings10:50

      I'm totally with you. A leaky bucket is never (laughs) a good bucket to have. Um, can I ask, you know, when you speak in y- you advise incredible companies that I expect, many of the founders you advise, um,

6. 11:00 – 14:40

   What is the most misunderstood metric category?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings11:00

      when you speak to founders and work with founders today, what do you think is the most misunderstood metric category and, and why do you think that is?

   2. SDShreyas Doshi11:12

      Um, I think one category that is highly misunderstood i- is... Uh, well, it's not so much a category as it is a type which is, you know, these days, a lot of people talk about the North Star metric, the NSM.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings11:26

      Mm-hmm.

   4. SDShreyas Doshi11:26

      What's your North Star metric? And, um, I'll tell you, I get a lot of emails and, um, messages, overall DMs from folks who, who ask me, you know, "Hey, um, I have this product. I have this startup and, uh, you know, I have some, some ideas on what my North Star metric should be, and, uh, and here it is. Uh, and so, what do you think?" Eh- and, and the reason I say this concept is misunderstood is that the North Star metric is not a panacea. Uh, and you know, there are some, uh, you know, uh, some people who want to train you on North Star metrics, may make it seem that way, uh, but the North Star metric is not a panacea. Uh, just defining, finding the perfect metric, uh, as your NSM, um, is actually not necessary.... right? Like, you, uh, when you're- when you're- especially when you're early stage, uh, what you're mainly looking for is, is my product resonating, right? And so what I often advise founders is, you know, it's classic, like don't try for perfection with your North Star metric. If you found something that generally works and is measurable, just pick it as your North Star metric. Uh, you don't have to try to tweak it and, you know, uh, get into immeasurable categories because oftentimes what happens is the perfect metric is very hard to measure. And so, uh, so- so then you try very hard to, you know, uh, like fix that, uh, and you're spending time working on a metric instead of spending time actually like shipping product and actually improving your usage metrics and your adoption metrics, which are the things that actually matter and will feed into your North Star metric. Um, so it's very... uh, that- that aspect is very misunderstood. The other thing I'll say related to North Star metric is, especially for early stage product, I often say that you're gonna get a lot more signal from the qualitative inputs than you are simply from your North Star metric. So... And I'm not saying just do one or the other, but, uh, again, for early stage products, it's really important not just to stare at a metric. It's very important to get access to qualitative feedback. Well, you know, throughout my career, one of the- one of the best learnings I've had is when, you know, I've just, uh, uh, you know, exposed a feedback- feedback form for users with one field, which is like, you know, tell us, uh, what you think about the product, w- what works, what doesn't work, w- whatever, like some question to that effect. And then I created a morning routine where, uh, you know, there would be an email system where these, uh, you know, users' inputs would show up in my email. Uh, and so my routine was just to look through those, uh, qualitative, uh, pieces of feedback. Uh, and I got so much more user empathy and insight, uh, from those than I could ever get from a dashboard. So yes, you know, North Star metric is useful to have, it's- it's useful to create targets against, etc., uh, but don't try to perfect it. Uh, and that part I think is very misunderstood, along with not taking into account the importance of qualitative inputs.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings14:34

      Before we get into the different types of product leaders, speaking of that North Star metric, and you're advising me

7. 14:40 – 16:32

   Who should be in charge of choosing the North Star Metric?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings14:40

      in my hypothetical startup journey, should I, the founder and CEO, be the one to determine the North Star metric and prioritize product metrics, or should that be the responsibility of my CPO, head of product?

   2. SDShreyas Doshi14:54

      Oh, boy. Um, the- the answer to that is do you- do you feel competent enough to do it? That's the main question. Uh, a- and if you do, as a founder, uh, then, um, by all means, uh, define it, uh, yourself. Uh, and, you know, of course, nobody really does it on their own. Like, you're alco- in- in a real work setting, you're getting feedback from folks anyway. Uh, but yeah, it would be your responsibility if you are fairly com- competent in this area. If you're not very competent in the area, uh, it is still ultimately your responsibility. Now, you might delegate aspects of it, uh, to somebody else on your team, uh, whether it's the chief product officer or somebody else. Uh, but ultimately because this is such a, you know, top level metric, uh, that you're gonna tri- create targets against, that you're gonna hopefully track on a regular basis, you have to be deeply involved. Uh, and so, you know, in either case, whether you're competent, uh, with it, uh, or you don't feel highly competent with it, uh, your involvement as a founder is extremely necessary, especially for an early stage product.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings16:07

      Do you feel competent? I'm glad this is a hypothetical discussion, Shreyas. (laughs)

   4. SDShreyas Doshi16:11

      (laughs)

   5. HSHarry Stebbings16:11

      Um, I do wanna discuss 'cause, you know, the show is actually in the, you know, verticalized way here, like 20 products started because I felt that founders didn't know what truly great looked like when hiring great product people and great product leaders in particular. And when we spoke before, you said that there are three product leaders, um, in terms of different types. I'd love

8. 16:32 – 20:00

   What are the three different personas of product leaders?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings16:32

      to just understand. I'm again the founder and CEO. I'm- I'm hiring my first CPO, head of product, product leader, whatever we wanna call them. What are the three different product leader personas that I should know about when entering this hiring process?

   2. SDShreyas Doshi16:48

      Yeah. So, uh, I, at this point, uh, just in the last year, I've spoken with, uh, more than 50 founders about, uh, the general area of, um, oh, my product is, uh, growing really, uh, fast and, uh, I think I n- I need a CPO or a VP product, or- or my board tells me or my VCs tell me, uh, that I should go hire a VP product, uh, and delegate, uh, various aspects of the product, uh, to that person. Uh, and so, uh, you know, they reach out to me and, uh, you know, sometimes we'll get on a call, uh, to discuss it. And every single conversation is actually very different. Uh, and, uh, because fundamentally, if product is what's gonna drive your startup success, uh, you have to create your own script, uh, around, you know, uh, around what you are looking for. Uh, and that can only be done if, uh, we understand, uh, how your business is gonna be driven forward, uh, and whatnot. Um, from those conversations, uh, I have been able to extract some, uh, patterns. And so, you know, one of the patterns is, uh, the three types of product leaders and they are, uh, the operator, uh, the crafts person, and- and the visionary. Uh, and, um, you know, when I kinda start sharing, uh, you know, these names or- or these labels, uh, uh, founders will start asking me like, "Oh, so like which one is right for me? Just tell me which one is right for me." And I'm like, "No, no, no, not so fast." Um...What is really important is, like, there is, there is no one right answer, first of all. Right? Like, uh, it really depends. But the, but the second thing is, um, that it's important to recognize that it's not like, you know, uh, a certain person can only be an operator. Like, actually, you know, highly competent, uh, senior product leaders, they can wear each of these hats. So, you can think about them as hats instead of categories. But still, people have a primary hat, uh, and that's the hat that makes them most comfortable. That's the hat they would rather wear than any other hat. Uh, so, uh, I'll just briefly go into, you know, what each of these e- is. Uh, but the operator is, uh, excellent at, uh, scaling teams, uh, driving cross-org alignment, and unblocking execution. Uh, and the operator's superpower is communication. On the other hand, uh, w- one of their challenges is actually original product insight. Uh, so this is very important to remember. Like, uh, there are... Oftentimes, there are operators who just, like, have amazing resumes and, uh, they've, you know, scaled companies and products extremely well, whether it's larger companies or mid-size companies. Uh, but despite all that experience, I have found, uh, that they do not have the ability, uh, to come up with really original product insights. Uh, and, uh, and, and this is where often things go wrong with, uh, CPO hiring or VP of product hiring

9. 20:00 – 24:47

   When do you need The Operator?

   1. SDShreyas Doshi20:00

      where, uh, sometimes, you know, your situation is such that you don't, do not yet need an operator. Um, eventually, almost everybody starts needing an operator in their head of product role. But you don't yet need one, but you bring somebody on, uh, with the expectation that, like, "Oh, business is going to quadruple at some point. And so at some point, we're going to need somebody like this, so why not bring them early?" But the problem is now this operator starts operating, right? Instead of, um, helping you get, uh, to a better, uh, position with your product-market fit or ins- b- because to get to a better position with your PMF, that requires original product insight. Uh, and, and without much help, uh, the operator is not gonna be able to do it on their own. Uh, and so, so that's just an example of where, like, things go wrong. Uh, j- yeah, go ahead.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings20:49

      When does that transition happen from not needing the operator to needing the operator? Is it post product-market fit? Is it Series C and beyond? Is it post-international expansion? Like, when is that transition of now you need an operator?

   3. SDShreyas Doshi21:08

      Yeah. So, uh, you know, I personally went through that transition myself, uh, when I was, uh, leading Connect, which is, uh, Stripe Connect, which is, uh, you know, a major, major business for Stripe. I, I started leading it when, uh, uh, you know, the product was already being used by quite a few of Stripe customers. Uh, the team was only four engineers at the time. Uh, and so it was, like, uh, early-ish in its, uh, life. Uh, and, uh, the business just... I v- I was leading it for three years, and the business and the product was just, like, you know, scaled tremendously in that time. Uh, and then at some point, I, I realized that, oh, this is getting too big for me. A- and not big in terms of just, you know, my ability to manage the business or my ability to, um, to, uh, manage the team, but more in terms of, um, uh, just what I'm passionate about. Uh, because, uh, you know, eh, w- as... During those three years, the product grew, I don't know how many x, but, like, significantly. Uh, and so... And the team grew correspondingly as well. Uh, and I just realized that, like, I was doing things, my day was spent in doing things that frankly I did not enjoy. And in many cases, I found boring. Uh, but that was the job at that point. Uh, and so back then, I went, uh, to my manager. Uh, John Collison was my manager back then. A- and I said, you know, "I, I think in... within the next several months, I think I need to go back to something that's earlier stage." Uh, and so we ended up actually doing that. I went back to, uh, something that was, like, very early stage at Stripe and s- helped grow that business, which was Stripe Terminal, its in-person payment solution. Uh, so from that experience, uh, what I learned and, uh, having then seen many founders and, you know, product leaders go through, uh, similar experiences is that, uh, it's definitely post product-market fit. It is nearly impossible, uh, for an operator to solely or mainly, uh, bring your product to product-market fit. Now, it can happen, but it's extremely rare and you should not bank on it. Uh, and, uh, but once you hit product-market fit and, uh, as your product starts scaling and as, uh, the demand for it starts growing and as the, uh, the cross-organization, uh, complexity in- increases, now what happens is in addition to managing the product, you also have a real big organization to manage. Right? Uh, and, uh, oftentimes, it's cross-team, right? Like, you're not owning everything. A- and that's where operators are tremendously valuable, uh, because, uh, they are extremely skilled at orchestrating cross-organizational action. They're extremely skilled at communication to make sure that everybody's aligned. Uh, they're fairly skilled at setting targets, setting goals, uh, and creating a sort of a, a, a rhythm, uh, in terms of how you, uh, launch things in this complex internal environment. Um, and so, so really, that is the point. Now, you know, it's not necessarily corresponding to the s- you know, the, the CDC or CDZ or CDZA or B, right? Like, 'cause as you know, um, uh-... there are many kind of like late-stage companies, uh, that are still pre-PM- pre-PMF, uh, for whatever reason. An- and so, so it really depends, uh, on sort of like what you are trying to do, where your product is at, what challenges you're facing. Uh, but at some point, it becomes very clear that you need an operator, and then you need to go

10. 24:47 – 28:57

    What is The Craftsperson persona?

    1. SDShreyas Doshi24:47

       find one.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings24:47

       Can you help me out? What's the craftsperson in terms of, like, that profile then? Walk me through that one.

    3. SDShreyas Doshi24:54

       Yes. Uh, so the craftsperson is excellent at, uh, defining products, and strategy, and mentoring other product people. Um, and- and their superpower is product insight.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings25:08

       Oh.

    5. SDShreyas Doshi25:08

       So i- the craftsperson is able to translate an e- e- extremely ambiguous goal or an extremely ambiguous vision into concrete product that has a very high chance of winning. Uh, and that skill of translating something high level and ambiguous to actual product, uh, actual user experience, the pixels, uh, the customer support experience, the interplay of the various things that need to happen to make a product and a business successful, they are able to translate that, uh, really well. Uh, and so again, their superpower is product insight, but they're not excellent at, uh, dealing with large orgs and its taxes, right? Because any large org comes with all sorts of taxes that you have to deal with. They just don't enjoy that, right? Um, uh, over my career, I- I started off as a visionary, which we can talk about later. Uh, but then I morphed myself into being a craftsperson. And so, like, you know, as organizations started getting large, I was just, like, uncomfortable with managing that. Like I said, I found that boring. Uh, they love spending time with the team, uh, and end users. Okay? So now, uh, it's interesting. Operators, they love spending time with their peers, so other kind of- other functional heads, uh, and company execs and the board. Uh, whereas, you know, as craftspeople, absolutely love spending time with users and customers and, uh, the team. And- and they- they get really excited about product deep dives and, "Oh, let's walk through this floor, and how can we make it better?" and that sort of conversation, which is very different from a conversation you might have, uh, with your cross-functional executive team or with the board, for instance. Uh, and so- so that's the craftsperson, uh, and is a very essential ingredient in any team. Whether it's a product leader or even individual product managers, you need these people so that you can translate something ambiguous into something concrete.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings27:02

       If I'm hiring my first CPO, head of product, whatever we wanna name it, but senior product hire, is that profile the profile I wanna go for, being the craftsperson?

    7. SDShreyas Doshi27:13

       That is a reasonable default, especially if you're early stage, uh, startup, uh, uh, and say perhaps, uh, you know, pre-PMF or just about reaching PMF, um, then craftsperson is a fairly good default. Uh, but there, again, it, uh, depends on, uh, your competence as a founder. Uh, and so particularly, again, when I go through these kind of sessions with founders, uh, one of the core things I ask them is like, "Why do you want to hire a product manager?" Whether, uh, whether it's at any level, an individual contribu- contributor or a leader, uh, "What is it that you want this person to do that you are doing right now?" Uh, 'cause presumably, you want to kinda like delegate certain responsibilities. So what is it? Uh, and is it the right thing to delegate? Sometimes, Harry, uh, the answer is, "Oh, I want to delegate a lot of the operational work. I want to delegate, uh, you know, the- the- the, uh, figuring out like how the sprints are going to work or figuring out, uh, you know, how customer support is going to, uh, get impacted by this new product feature that we're launching. Those types of things, I want to delegate. Uh, but I still feel like I need to own, uh, the core kind of, you know, customer insight, the core product insights, uh, and some of the definition of the product." In those cases, uh, you may want to bring a sort of like a mid-level or a junior operator type personal- person, uh, and kinda delegate those operations while still holding onto the visionary and craftsperson hat yourself as a founder. So, so that is possible, but the de- default, uh, craftsperson is- is

11. 28:57 – 32:40

    What are signs of breaks in a scaling product team?

    1. SDShreyas Doshi28:57

       a good place to start.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings28:58

       Before we move into the visionary, you mentioned like the- the craftsperson struggles with the scaling product team. What are the first things to break, should I ask, in a scaling product team? What are the first signs of things breaking?

    3. SDShreyas Doshi29:11

       Yeah. So there are two, uh, two core things that, um, tend to break, uh, across most situations. Uh, one is, uh, within the team, uh, and that is that, uh, as a team grows, a large part of your role as a leader becomes one, uh, you're basically a repeater. You just have to keep repeating the same thing. Uh, and, uh, you may repeat it in different ways, but you're effectively repeating the same message. Um, and so- so you can imagine, like if you're managing a team of 20, uh, or 25 people, uh, you can, like, have a sort of, you know, personal, uh, uh, relationship, some amount of trust, some amount of like just mind meld with, uh, a group that's, say, 20 or 25. Um, but now your team is 50 people, uh, um, including engineers, designers, et cetera, or like the team is, uh, 80 people, right? Like, there's a team that's kind of building a product that has 80 people, it's impossible. It's impossible, uh, to- to create that mind meld, right? So you need to change your approach, which is now instead of relying on one to one or one to few, uh, interactions, you have to rely on one to many interactions, right? Uh, but people don't remember as much as we, uh, think they remember.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings30:35

       Cool.

    5. SDShreyas Doshi30:35

       Right? So- so you have to keep repeating the vision, the goals, the strategy, et cetera, et cetera. And like, that becomes a really important part of your role. Uh, and...... you know, a craftsperson can do this. But as the team scales, a craftsperson- most craftspeople don't enjoy that aspect that much because a, a craftsperson derives energy from being in the product, from, uh, having, uh, intimate conversations about, uh, uh, evolving the product. And, and so it's not the kind of thing that, uh, y- a craftsperson wants to do as a major part of their job. Uh, and so, so that's one thing that kinda starts breaking internally for a craftsperson, uh, that makes it harder. Uh, externally, so outside of the org, outside of the team, what ends up happening is, um, as the business scales, uh, there are other parts of the business, other departments like sales, and support, and BD, and marketing, and various other parts of the organization, uh, that does begin relying on you. Uh, and you begin relying more on them as well. You're no longer kinda self-sufficient and scrappy. And so as the company has grown and as your product has grown, there are a lot of just, like, alignment issues, there are a lot of dependencies that you need to resolve. Uh, and at that point, uh, you know, when you reach a certain scale, uh, that becomes an extremely large part of, uh, a product leader's role.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings32:04

       (exhales)

    7. SDShreyas Doshi32:05

       Uh, and at that point, um, you are basically just in many, many meetings, uh, unfortunately. Uh, and again, craftspeople can do meetings, and they, they enjoy meetings. But if a craftsperson spends three weeks, uh, you know, uh, going to these various alignment meetings, they are going to get frustrated, right? So, so that's the part that starts breaking outside of the team, uh, at which point, uh, you know, uh, if you're a self-aware craftsperson that wants to remain a craftsperson, you start thinking, oh, maybe it's time for me to go back to something

12. 32:40 – 38:49

    What is The Visionary persona?

    1. SDShreyas Doshi32:40

       more scrappy, something more early stage.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings32:42

       I, I totally get you. I'm just intrigued because I, I'm, I'm wondering what visionary is. If craftsperson does have the original product insight, does have that creativity within them, wha- what is the profile of a visionary?

    3. SDShreyas Doshi32:55

       Yeah, so a visionary is a very interesting one. And, like, among these profiles, the visionary is the most rare, or at least the competent visionary is extremely rare.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings33:04

       (laughs) .

    5. SDShreyas Doshi33:05

       Uh, the visionary is excellent at big picture thinking and inventing what's next. And their superpower being that they can see what others cannot see. And it would seem like this is, uh, you know, this should be a, uh, you know, a fairly common trait, but again, a competent visionary is extremely rare. Um, and so the visionary-

    6. HSHarry Stebbings33:32

       What's the difference between a competent and an incompetent visionary given so much of their beliefs are future held? What's the difference?

    7. SDShreyas Doshi33:39

       Yeah, so it is, uh, you, you cannot define it, uh, looking forward, uh, simply because, uh, ultimately, and this is not gonna be a satisfying answer, but this is true, uh, as far as I've seen, is you're just more right about where the world is headed. Uh, and, and there are people, uh, you know, clearly there are people who are more right than others. This is actually why I love Amazon's, one of Amazon's leadership principles is, uh, leaders are right a lot.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings34:10

       Huh.

    9. SDShreyas Doshi34:10

       Uh, and, and it's my favorite of their, they have really great leadership principles. This one's my favorite because, uh, this is so misunderstood because, you know, there, there, there are many people who say, "Well, like, you know, there is no such thing as being visionary, as being right a lot." Like, you just, you know, you but, you, you, you follow a process, uh, and, uh, make sure it's a good process, make sure you set OKRs, make sure you, uh, execute, uh, well and success will be yours. No, that is not how anything works in the real world, right? Uh, that is actually the operator speaking when that operator has taken a product from, say, 20 to 60 or 60 to 100, uh, and it's easy to say that, oh, success is all about just following processes, setting structures, setting goals, and diligently following them. And all of that is very important. Uh, but they forget that it's actually a high degree of creativity and instinct that gave you the luxury to be able to take a product from 20 to 60, right? And, and, and that could have only happened by, with the vision, uh, o- of a visionary a- and the craft of a craftsperson, uh, who are right a lot, right? So, uh, so now sometimes it gets confusing. Like, okay, so but what's the difference between a visionary and a craftsperson?

    10. HSHarry Stebbings35:26

        Mm-hmm.

    11. SDShreyas Doshi35:26

        One of the challenges with a visionary is, uh, that a visionary finds it difficult to translate that big vision, which, by the way, again, by definition, very few people can see that vision. Even many craftspeople cannot see that big vision. A visionary finds it hard to translate that to concrete product steps.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings35:45

        Mm.

    13. SDShreyas Doshi35:46

        Like, okay, so I want to do this. I want to revolutionize, I don't know, spreadsheets, right? Like, and, and, and I have a certain, certain vision in my head of how that is supposed to happen. Uh, but what is the first step I take? What is the next step I take? And what's the step after that? Uh, that is where a visionary, uh, works very well with a craftsperson.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings36:08

        Mm-hmm.

    15. SDShreyas Doshi36:08

        Because a craftsperson can kinda translate that, uh, into concrete steps along the way. Uh, and again, there are many visionaries who are also craftspeople, right? So, uh, and I've worked with many, uh, such folks. Uh, and so, so they can do that job, but only to a point. Like re- like, you know, these really great visionaries, they often find it hard, uh, not always, but they often find it hard, uh, without the support of craftspeople and operators, uh, to do it consistently.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings36:37

        Can I ask, should the founder not be the visionary and the CPO not be the craftsperson?

    17. SDShreyas Doshi36:44

        Uh, it- that is often the case. Uh, again, it's by definition that, like, you need to have a...... big vision for something, something that does not exist or is highly suboptimal in the world, uh, that you want to, uh, you want to fix. A- and so, so oftentimes, uh, founders end up being, uh, that kind of visionary archetype. Uh, a- and on founding teams, I've found that c- it's usually, you know, one of the founders that's the visionary. Uh, and perhaps, you know, there's another founder that's more like an operator, uh, and, uh, maybe even a third that's more like a craftsperson. Uh, and I'm not saying it has to be that kind of composition. Uh, but typically, you know, in like, at this point, I've kinda advised, uh, you know, 100 plus companies just in the past two years on various topics. Uh, and, uh, I've found that like usually there's one founder who's the core visionary, who, who then takes ownership of the product, uh, early on naturally. Uh, and kinda like, you know, sometimes wears the craftsperson hat. And like I said, they can be fairly good at it, to kinda translate that vision into certain kinda product, uh, manifestations. Uh, but at some point, uh, it becomes harder for them. Like because once you start getting users and once you start getting usage, what ends up happening is users are pulling you in many different directions.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings38:07

        Mm-hmm.

    19. SDShreyas Doshi38:08

        Right? Uh, the visionary has a very clear view of the future, but, uh, being responsible people, they also now take into account user and customer feedback, uh, and that can get confusing at times. Um, even if it's not confusing for them, yet they may find it hard to kinda like, you know, bring the team along on like, okay, given all this kinda conflicting feedback and, uh, this plethora of, uh, uh, you know, ways in which we can take the product, here's what we're gonna do as step one, step two, step three. Here's how we're gonna actually build out the product. Uh, these are the flows that matter. These are the flows that don't matter. That's when, uh, whether it's a CPA or a VP product or even a director of product or an individual product manager,

13. 38:49 – 43:10

    How to weigh customer feedback?

    1. SDShreyas Doshi38:49

       a craftsperson becomes a great asset for a visionary.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings38:52

       How do you determine when to listen to customer feedback versus when to progress with expected and planned roadmap and ignore it? Tough question, I know.

    3. SDShreyas Doshi39:02

       Oh, boy. That's, uh, you know, the, the perennial question o- of product management. Uh, and look, my view on this is, um... there are some teams that say that, um, they are, uh, highly customer-driven. Uh, and that's seen kinda as a virtue, which is like, "Oh, we are very customer-driven." Um, but in reality, what ends up happening when you kinda label yourself that way, that you're customer-driven, is, uh, you end up just following what customers are telling you.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings39:39

       Sure.

    5. SDShreyas Doshi39:39

       Uh, and, and sometimes that can be the right answer. Uh, especially, you know, once your product has already, uh, sort of like reached a certain scale, uh, y- you can be customer-driven, uh, and build, uh, you know, what they ask you to build in because you already have some assets, some differentiation. Uh, and so, so that works. Uh, but I have found that it's very important, uh, to, you know, ground what you do, uh, in terms of a core strategy. So the strategy becomes, uh, the piece, uh, the artifact, uh, the guideline, uh, for when you listen to customers and when you don't listen to customers.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings40:21

       Mm-hmm.

    7. SDShreyas Doshi40:22

       Um, so... And this is best explained, uh, perhaps, uh, via an example. Um, so, uh, you know, one of the products I, uh, managed at Stripe, uh, was, uh, Striper Terminal, which is an in-person kinda point of sale payment solution. Uh, and, uh, point of sale, uh, payments have been around for a really long time. And Stripe was creating its own, uh, solution like that. Uh, and one of the challenges that we faced is, uh, that we are competing against very, uh, very powerful incumbents. Uh, and again, because point of sale payments had been around for a long time, uh, there was a massive gap that we had to fill in terms of just basic table stakes features. Uh, like, for instance, to give you a concrete example, um, i- you know, when you are accepting payments, uh, say with a card, like physical card, when you're accepting payments, um, uh, uh, you know, for events, uh, uh, it is complicated because sometimes the event might be occurring... say it's a concert or something else.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings41:29

       Mm-hmm.

    9. SDShreyas Doshi41:29

       The event might be occurring in a place where there's no network access. Okay? So how do you do that online auth- authorization that, uh, this card is good for the $100 ticket, uh, that it's purchasing or, uh, whatever goods that they're purchasing at the concert? You can't. Uh, and so, uh, so there is a solution to that, uh, which is offline mode, uh, for, for payment, uh, s- uh, payment terminals. And so, uh, you know, as we've... and it's not easy to build that. Uh, so as we were trying to get Stripe Terminal to get adoption, we would get all these feature requests, right? Which is like, "Oh, we need offline mode, uh, and we need, uh, uh, uh, you know, all sorts of other kinda security features or, uh, all sorts of, uh, uh, you know, additional customization features." Like for instance, the point of sale terminal that you see, uh, uh... the payment terminal that you see at the grocery store is highly customized. It has the branding, various other things. And so customers were asking us for all of these features. Uh, and our team was very tiny. Uh, if we were to just build all of these, what I call table stakes features, it would just take us five years just to even just basically meet the table stakes. Uh, uh, and, and, and we could have done that. We could have done that. But at the end of those five years, you end up with a product that's...... just a poor substitute for one of the incumbent products that have had a 10-year, 15-year lead on you. Right? So, so yes, I can follow what customers are saying and I can launch these features that'll make them happy, but now I have a product that's hardly differentiated, right? So, so in this situation, what we

14. 43:10 – 47:40

    Shreya’s new framework for product decisions

    1. SDShreyas Doshi43:10

       decided to do was something different. We said, "You know what? We are actually going to, uh..." I, I have this framework called, uh, um, you know, and I haven't talked much about it or in- at all about it, uh, like sort of externally, so this will be the first time. Um, I have this framework called the BTD framework, which is essentially for any im- sort of like important aspect of your product. Uh, you decide whether you want to come in below table stakes, that is B. Um, you decide if you want to come in at table stakes, that is T. Uh, or you decide you, you actually wanna differentiate, that is above table stakes, above what ev- what is expected, and that's differentiation. Um, so, you know, just use BTD, right? Which is, uh, be intentful about certain customer requests and say, "You know what? For this type of request, we are going to come in below table stakes." Right? So that's your B. Uh, in other cases, you may decide, "Oh, I want to meet table stakes." Uh, and in some other cases, you may go well beyond what customers are saying or build something entirely different, uh, that customers, uh, aren't even asking for, which is a lot of what we ended up doing with Terminal. Um-

    2. HSHarry Stebbings44:18

       Can I- can I- can I ask you a hard-

    3. SDShreyas Doshi44:19

       And so, so that, that becomes the basis of your strategy. A- and that's why I think being stra- strategy driven is very important.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings44:26

       Can I ask you a hard question? When angel investing and advising companies today, when you look at that framework, which are you most attracted to and do you find most compelling as a product leader, product investor? Which one are you most attracted to today? Hard question.

    5. SDShreyas Doshi44:45

       Um, in terms of, uh, you know, categories, what I- what I get most attracted to, uh, are categories of, like, companies or founders.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings44:53

       No. I'm- I'm- I'm- I'm- I'm saying, like, below table or above.

    7. SDShreyas Doshi44:57

       Is where-

    8. HSHarry Stebbings44:57

       When you look at those, I, I like ones-

    9. SDShreyas Doshi44:59

       Mm-hmm.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings44:59

        ... which, um, actually come in above. Like, I hate it when we have to catch up to incumbent feature sets, and then we assume that they're just gonna stagnate. And they're never going to stagnate, you're just always gonna be behind actually. I'd rather say, "Hey, you know what?"

    11. SDShreyas Doshi45:13

        Mm-hmm.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings45:13

        "The current POS is- may have all these features, but fuck it. We're gonna make this feature that plays Iron Maiden when you buy anything." (laughs) Um, and it's gonna be a wow-

    13. SDShreyas Doshi45:26

        Mm-hmm.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings45:26

        ... consumer experience. So we're gonna come in, like, above, but kind of accept below in other areas. Do you see what I mean?

    15. SDShreyas Doshi45:32

        Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings45:32

        Do you have a preference on your investing-

    17. SDShreyas Doshi45:33

        Yep, yep.

    18. HSHarry Stebbings45:33

        ... for where they insert themselves on that feature insertion point or product insertion?

    19. SDShreyas Doshi45:40

        You know, uh, what I- what I found, uh, uh, most interesting is... A- and I think this generally works for most products and, uh, new products and, uh, new startups, is when you are entering a fairly crowded space where maybe there's a very powerful incumbent. Um, the customer segment you target becomes really important because what you wanna do is you wanna target, uh, a kind of customer, a segment of customer, uh, that the incumbent is not doing a very good job of, uh, satisfying. Uh, and for that target customer, then you determine, uh, okay, what are their unfulfilled needs, right? So yes, the incumbent has a bunch of, like, features and, like, they're doing well, et cetera. But you will find pockets of customers, uh, and segments, these segments that are highly dissatisfied. Uh, and, and so that's a good strategy, uh, for a new product where you find those pockets of, uh, uh, customer segments that are highly dissatisfied, uh, with certain features because they're not im- important for the incumbent across its customer base. But they're very important for this specific segment. And, and that's where I like companies that are, that, uh, are very clear on targeting certain segments and then creating highly differentiated experiences for them. Uh, and when you do that, and this is es- essentially what we did at, uh, with Stripe Terminal, is when you target a specific segment, uh, and meet their unfulfilled needs in surprising ways, and you go way about table stakes, you differentiate. Uh, they will give you a lot of leeway. They will be willing to live without a bunch of other conventional table stakes, uh, because, uh, your product performs so well on their core use case where the alternatives are not that great frankly for them, that they will be willing to live with some pain. They'll give you a lot of, uh, yeah, you know, just leeway, uh, to catch up on some of the table stakes.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings47:38

        I, I, I totally get

15. 47:40 – 49:46

    How has angel investing changed your product mindset?

    1. HSHarry Stebbings47:40

       you there, especially in kind of the verticalization. Can I ask you, when you think about your angel investing today, how do you think that has changed your product mindset having had the exposure that you now have from advising and investing in so many?

    2. SDShreyas Doshi47:56

       Yeah. You know, um, I think the, the core thing that, uh, perhaps, um, you know, and this, this one's very obvious, um, uh, in hindsight. But like, you know, previously I, when I started angel investing, uh, I, I was very attracted to the idea. Uh, and again, being sort of like a product idea person, a crafts person, like, you know, I was like, "This needs to exist in the world." Uh, and so, so I'm very excited about this. I wanna invest in this. I wanna support this founder and whatnot. Uh, and what I realized over time is, uh, that that is n- a necessary, but by no means a sufficient condition. In fact, it's not even one of the main conditions. Uh, and instead, um, I realized that, like, the core thing that, um, matters is just, you know, how great is this founder? And this is why it's obvious, right? Like it's, it's not like I'm the first person, uh, to realize this. But I had to sort of like go through that journey (laughs) to really accept that realization that, uh-... you know, if the founder, like and now the core question I ask is, uh, uh, "Is this person among the most capable people I've ever encountered?" Right? Uh, and it's a very simple litmus test and o- obviously, you know, that requires conversation, that requires asking, you know, good questions and whatnot. Uh, but, uh, if that is true, and that's the bar I apply for advising as well, right? Like, because, uh, I, I wanna keep the number of companies to a manageable, um, uh, size. Uh, and so one of the core things I look at is, "Is this person one of the most c- capable persons I've ever come across?" And are they, uh, do I think that they will be able to create and hire a

16. 49:46 – 52:06

    What product persona do The Collison brothers (of Stripe) fit?

    1. SDShreyas Doshi49:46

       top-notch team? Uh, so-

    2. HSHarry Stebbings49:48

       C- can I ask, if, if you look back at the Collisons in particular, can I ask what profile would you put them in terms of crafts person, visionary, or operator? Uh, they're different, very different people. So (overlapping speech)

    3. SDShreyas Doshi50:02

       Ah, yeah. So, uh, I mean, uh, they're both brilliant people, so, uh, I- it is a tough question. It's hard to kinda like, you know, put them in one box, and not that these archetypes are about boxes. Uh, but, uh, my assessment would be, uh, that, uh, Patrick is very much a visionary crafts person, uh, type person. So, you know, every time I've interacted with him, and I learned a lot from, uh, you know, about product, uh, from interacting with him. Um, that's been the conversation is, is the visionary crafts person, uh, mindset, uh, which is, what is the big idea here, right? Like, and how are we gonna differentiate? Uh, and, uh, how, how are we gonna get user adoption? Uh, and also, uh, you know, how do we get like the, the product details right? Uh, how do we surprise users? Uh, how do we make, uh, you know, how do we further the brand? Uh, you know, how is this brand aligned? Those types of things, um, uh, were a, a constant kinda, you know, um, aspect of, uh, my interactions with Patrick. Uh, so he would be that visionary, uh, crafts person archetype. Uh, John is interesting, uh, in that like, uh, you know, he is, he's one of the rare people who can do, I think, who kinda can do, and I've seen him do all three (laughs) really well. Uh, in fact, uh, there were many times when like John was managing certain teams on an interim basis, uh, at Stripe that like, you know, he clearly had never managed that type of team, whether it's sales or, uh, something else, uh, before. Uh, but, uh, he was able to do it really well. Uh, so I think John is harder for me, uh, because I've seen him kinda do each of these three. Uh, and, and not just do each of these three, but like actually, uh, just, uh, enjoy doing it, uh, at least from the way I was looking at it.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings52:01

       I, I, I totally agree with you on John being a unique mixture of all three. Um,

17. 52:06 – 57:31

    How important is time to value in a customer experience?

    1. HSHarry Stebbings52:06

       but yeah, I, I totally agree with you there. Final one, and it's a bit random. How important is time to value in a customer experience? Often I speak to founders and they're like, "Oh, we need to reduce the time to value. It needs to be quicker, it needs to be more, uh, kind of emotive and valuable faster." And sometimes I think yes, and sometimes I think you have to go slow to go fast, and you do need to connect your data sources, your different accounts, whatever the process is. How do you think about time to value when advising companies today?

    2. SDShreyas Doshi52:35

       Yeah, I, I think, uh, it goes back to what is the core customer motivation, and how strong is that core customer motivation? Okay, so... And, and I think this is something that, uh, very few teams do on a consistent basis. Um, and in fact, some of the companies I advise, like I- I love to see after I've advised them for a while where like where they'll run some products by me, uh, and, uh, they will actually start with, uh, "Okay, so the core customer motivation or the core user motivation we think is X. And so in order to help the customer fulfill that motivation, here's the product." So they lead with the motivation rather than leading with, um, uh, the, the actual product experience. And so I love that. Now, just expanding on that a bit, when the core customer motivation is extremely high, you can afford to lengthen that time to value, right? Uh, uh, but when the core customer motivation is not that high, and, and, and particularly, um, you have to remember, it's not just about what they hope to accomplish, it's also about what alternatives they have.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings53:47

       Mm-hmm.

    4. SDShreyas Doshi53:47

       So the alternatives factor into the degree of motivation, uh, around fulfilling, uh, that motivation with your product. So if I have a lot of alternatives, including the alternative of continuing with the tool, uh, or the app that I already use, uh, that I'm used to using, uh, which may be suboptimal, um, then my core customer, my core motivation as a customer is not gonna be that high. Uh, and so then in that case, you've gotta show me the value sooner, right?

    5. HSHarry Stebbings54:17

       (laughs)

    6. SDShreyas Doshi54:17

       Uh, so let's take B2B because I, I just love this question and there is so much like, uh, so much value to be created by companies and startups if they understand this consistently, is you take some B2B products, uh, and, uh, you know, my observation is some B2B products, uh, are what I call mandate products. And what I mean by mandate products is that when an executive gets hired in a specific role, that executive makes it a company mandate, and certainly a mandate for himself or herself, to roll out that product across the organization or across their department. So that's a mandate product. Okay, what's an example of a mandate product? Workday is a great example of a mandate product.... which is in, you know, many parts of the world, uh, and certainly in the US. I- if you are a, a chief people officer that has joined a, you know ... or, or a ch- you know, um, your VP of, uh, human resources that just joined a scaling company, say, more than 500 or 1,000 people, um, m- often, a lot of the work is happening in spreadsheets or some tools, a- and you come in and the first thing you say is, "We're gonna roll out Workday." Right? Uh, and so, so Workday becomes a mandate product. If you are a CFO, uh, uh, you know, and you, uh, if you're hired as the first CFO, you'll come in and you will likely, uh, uh, roll out NetSuite as the mandate product.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings55:46

       Mm-hmm.

    8. SDShreyas Doshi55:46

       Uh, and, and there are many other examples like that, if you're the chief data officer or whatever. Uh, but the point here is that, uh, a mandate product usually has a very long time to value, because you have to kinda, you know, roll it out across the organization. Uh, you have to train people. Uh, you have to ... You know, it's like a six-month process, sometimes even a year-long process, for instance, uh, to roll out NetSuite, uh, within an organization. Uh, so that time to value is very long. But the, the, uh, the, the observation here is that the credibility has already been established, which is like, you cannot go wrong if you roll out this product within the organization, right? You will not be fired. In fact, you might get promoted for rolling this out because you'll create a, a whole lot of cost savings or you'll create a whole lot of efficiencies. And that's what you wanna do as a new executive, right, uh, within the company, is to start showing how you are being a lot more effective than the com- than, than the company was bef- uh, before you. So, uh, so in those situations, like the marketing and the branding also matters. The positioning matters, right? Uh, so when your positioning is very unique, um, and very strong, uh, you can have a much longer time to value as well. So again, it's like, you know, I, I, I don't think there's one right answer. And sometimes on Twitter or other places, people will just say, "This is the one way to do it." And it's like, "No, no, no." You, you have to be really thoughtful and intent- intentional about these things.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings57:12

       Shreias, uh, the trouble I have with you is, um, I, I could talk to you all day, uh, about a lot of these things (laughs) 'cause I have a lot of, like, product questions where I've thought them for a long time and needed your wisdom. Um, but, uh, we, we can do a part two in, in another segment. I wanna do a quick-fire round now where I say a short statement and then you give me your immediate thoughts.

18. 57:31 – 58:40

    What in the realm of product have you changed your mind on?

    1. HSHarry Stebbings57:31

       Does that sound okay?

    2. SDShreyas Doshi57:32

       All right, let's do it.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings57:34

       Okay. So what in the realm of product have you changed your mind on recently? Again, we can take up-

    4. SDShreyas Doshi57:44

       Uh, the, the, the role of metrics.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings57:47

       How so? What about the role of-

    6. SDShreyas Doshi57:49

       Um, uh, and it's basically what I shared earlier, uh, like, which is, like, there isn't one type of metric. There are actually s- you know, several types of metrics. And you have to really decide what type of metrics are really important for you right now, uh, versus what will become important later.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings58:05

       What are the biggest mistakes you see founders make when hiring their first product hires?

    8. SDShreyas Doshi58:12

       Um, they, they overemphasize background, resume, titles, and companies that the f- uh, the executive has worked at. Uh, and they often ignore their instinct, uh, about, uh, the, uh, the executive during the interview process. Uh, and then, uh, unfortunately end up

19. 58:40 – 59:21

    Advice for new product leaders starting today

    1. SDShreyas Doshi58:40

       regretting, uh, the choice six months, 12 months down the road.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings58:43

       What one piece of advice would you give to a new product leader starting a new role today?

    3. SDShreyas Doshi58:51

       First, focus on understanding the customer and their domain extremely well. Don't pressure yourself into creating value within the first 30 days or even the six- first 60 days, uh, because you're playing the long game. And also build, start building relationships and strong relationships across the organization, but especially with your team, uh, from day

20. 59:21 – 59:50

    Biggest strength and biggest weakness

    1. SDShreyas Doshi59:21

       one. Do not postpone that.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings59:23

       As a product leader yourself, a bit of self-reflection, what was your biggest strength and what was your biggest weakness?

    3. SDShreyas Doshi59:31

       Biggest strength was, uh, product sense, uh, b- the ability to, uh, uh, often be right about what product is, uh, going to work. Uh, biggest weakness, uh, was about making the broad organization, uh, aware, uh, about, uh, all the progress,

21. 59:50 – 1:01:27

    Most impressed by this company’s product strategy

    1. SDShreyas Doshi59:50

       uh, that my team and my product was making.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings59:53

       Final one. What recent company product strategy have you been most impressed by?

    3. SDShreyas Doshi1:00:00

       Hmm. You know, there's a company, uh, that's based out of India, it's called Lead School, and I've been advising them for, uh, more than a year. And, um, their, uh, their product strategy, um, is, uh, is just really exciting for me, uh, because, um, uh, what they're doing is they're, uh, bringing high quality, really high quality school K through, K through 12 education, uh, to smaller towns and smaller cities. So not the big metropolitan areas in India, but the smaller towns and smaller cities in India, uh, where what they want to do is they wanna create greater parity of the quality of education you can get, uh, being part, uh, you know, living in a smaller town as a child in India, in India. Uh, a- and kinda, uh, and they're doing that via a combination of curriculum, uh, technology, uh, and, uh, uh, operations to support the curriculum and technology. Uh, and so it's been great to sort of like watch them kinda not just formulate that strategy, but also execute on it over the last year.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:06

       Shreias, I knew this would be a great show, but this is like ... Shows like this make me, uh, really appreciate why I love what I do so much. So thank you so much for joining me. Thank you for putting up with my basic questions, and I've so enjoyed having you on.

    5. SDShreyas Doshi1:01:18

       Yeah, likewise, Harry. This was a blast. And, uh, looking forward to our next chat.

Episode duration: 1:01:27