Stephane Kurgan: Lessons Scaling King from 100 Employees to 2,400; How to Find Great Talent | E1041

1. 0:00 – 0:58

   Intro

   1. SKStephane Kurgan0:00

      ... it's great to fuck up. I think you have to fuck up. The job of, you know, most managers and leaders is to make decisions. As a manager, if you make 55% of good decisions, you're a really good manager. If you make 60%, you're exceptional. But that means 40% of your decisions will be wrong. I was listening to a podcast with, uh, Zuckerberg and he, and he says, you know, "Failing is one of micro-competencies." That's so true. The job is not to be right, the job is to make decisions. If you keep making the same decision wrong multiple times, then that's a problem, and then you need to have a conversation.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:28

      Steph, this is such a special episode for me to do. We were talking downstairs and I was saying, "I've been hearing about your operational excellence for years from Fred Destin." So thank you so much for joining me.

   3. SKStephane Kurgan0:38

      Yeah. Uh, well, thank you so much for, for having me. Um, I mean, I, I've, I've known you for, for a long time. It's ver- it's, it's still a surprise to be here today.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:46

      (laughs)

   5. SKStephane Kurgan0:46

      Uh, first, it's a great honor. You know (laughs) , if I... I'm not sure I'm, I'm worthy. And, uh, no, it's incredibly, it's incredible, it's very exciting, so thank you. Yeah.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings0:54

      Well, I so appreciate that. But I was obviously, you know, doing my work before the show

2. 0:58 – 8:30

   Entrepreneurial Journey and Startup Insights

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:58

      on you, and the thing I wanted to start on is, how did you make your first foray into the world of startups? What was that entry point?

   2. SKStephane Kurgan1:04

      I, I wrote my, uh, final paper at, um, university with, with, uh, uh, a, a professor who founded the, the first commercial CD-ROM company in Europe. So he ha- he had seen in the US a product called Disclosure, which was, um, uh, a, a, a business database for, for US companies. And the CD-ROM at the time was revolutionary, because, you know, you couldn't store, uh, that much data on a floppy disc, right? It was a, it was a huge revolution. And so he built that company with ... and bo- he bootstrapped it, and it became incredibly successful. It's a company that was called Bureau Van Dijk, uh, which was sold to Moody's for, uh, more than €3 billion a few years ago. And so he hired me, uh, because he thought, you know, I, I sounded like a good sales guys, and then he sent me, you know, cold calling all over the, the world on banks to try to sell them the, the software and the data. And so I went to... I started with Northern Europe. I went to Russia and Eastern Europe in '91. I went to South America, you know, Colombia during the, the narco wars. I wa- I went all over the world for-

   3. HSHarry Stebbings2:09

      (laughs)

   4. SKStephane Kurgan2:09

      ... for four years. Uh, I was living-

   5. HSHarry Stebbings2:11

      With CD-ROMs as well.

   6. SKStephane Kurgan2:12

      ... with, with the CD-ROMs. And I had ... And y- so I, uh, I would leave the CD on trial, so I had to, um ... I was carrying CD-ROM readers. I would open the computers. At the time, they were AT or XT computers. I would install a card inside the computer. I had a vacuum cleaner with me, because these were all computers. They were incredibly dusty, so you had to clean them up before you could install the card. I basically, you know, was, had my suitcase, my CD-ROM drives, and I went all over the place for, for five years.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings2:39

      I love this. I'm just picturing-

   8. SKStephane Kurgan2:40

      (laughs)

   9. HSHarry Stebbings2:40

      ... kind of narco wars in Colombia-

   10. SKStephane Kurgan2:42

       (laughs)

   11. HSHarry Stebbings2:42

       ... with CD-ROMs coming round. (laughs) .

   12. SKStephane Kurgan2:44

       Yeah.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings2:44

       Um, i- it's, it's so hard for me to ask questions like this next one-

   14. SKStephane Kurgan2:48

       Yeah. (laughs)

   15. HSHarry Stebbings2:48

       ... but I, I have to. Which is, like, eight years at King is such an incredible time, at such an incredible company. If you think about one or two of the most non-obvious lessons from that time, what do you think one or two of the most non-obvious lessons from that time are, that really impacted how you think?

   16. SKStephane Kurgan3:02

       I mean, the f- the first one is, um, trust the data, not your intuition. Uh, you know, King was always pretty data-driven, eh, but it, it, it's, it was an incredibly data-rich environment. I mean, the beauty of free-to-play on Facebook and later on mobile is that it provides you, you know, faster and, uh, and a higher quantity of data that almost any, any other business. And very often, we had product intuition in terms of features or whatever where, you know, the team would think, "Okay, this is what we need to change," or ... and, and the data would give you a completely different answer. And I think it's very, I mean, it's been a great lesson in humility for, for product people. You have to be ready to be wrong. You have to, you know, m- you know, read carefully the data and, and act upon it. I think that's one thing that's really important. And, and the other, uh, insight is, you know, the, the Swedish model, uh, which it, of, of, um, I would say labor relations is, is fantastic. I mean, it's incre- you build incredibly resilient companies. So it's, it's a bit of a shock when you get there, because you have, um, you know, these very generous, you know, parental leave policies, where both parents can leave for six months. And you have anybody can take a sabbatical at any time for, you know, another three months. And then they all, um, take their holidays at the same time for five or six weeks. They vanish for the Swedish summer, from midsummer to early August. And then it, as you, as you arrive there as a foreign executive, it, you know, you, you wonder how you're gonna be able to operate a business with that. But then-

   17. HSHarry Stebbings4:37

       I've got, I've got heart palpitations listening to this, Steph. (laughs)

   18. SKStephane Kurgan4:39

       ... but then, but then you have, but then you have to plan around it, and which they do. And you ha- and then essentially, you, you create all these backup and support systems and labor mobility. The company you have then is, is much more robust and resilient to shocks, right? Beca- because there is, um, you know, the, you, you have essentially the, uh, very high level of cooperation. You know, the, the level of skills is very high. They're interchangeable. And we had that shock coming in, and then when we sold the company to Activision, uh, Blizzard, they had that shock coming in as well. (laughs)

   19. HSHarry Stebbings5:10

       I, I have to ask some follow-ups there. When you say about kind of data over intuition, can you take me to like the biggest example for you where data proved something that intuition didn't suggest?

   20. SKStephane Kurgan5:22

       I mean, I, let me give you an example. The, you know, we came up with a, a feature, um, in Candy Crush, which was, um, you know, incredibly good at monetization, to the point where it made us uncomfortable. And so what we did was we essentially capped the feature. You know, it was, I mean, at, at King, we had a number of rules. We had, we were very privileged in the sense that we had a, a huge number of players. So at the peak, we had 540 million players, and we had a huge number of spenders. We had seven or eight million spenders. And so we could afford to have, uh, players who would spend a very low amount of money in the game and still create a huge business. So we were not reliant on very high spenders. And so I think we were very careful.... um, to, to, to make sure that, you know, we, we would not, you know ... essentially vulnerable people spending too much money on the title and putting themselves in challenging situations. And one way of doing that was to cap the amount of money that you can spend in the title. And when would- would- when we would see high spending, we actually would reach out to the players and we would ask them if they were aware of what they were doing. And to make sure it was not one of the kids who was using some, you know, one of their parents' credit card, or ... and, and, um, you know-

   21. HSHarry Stebbings6:40

       Does that not go against, bluntly, the efficiency of how most gaming m- companies monetize, which is like, actually large whales provide 80% of the monetization?

   22. SKStephane Kurgan6:50

       Look, s- s- s- some of the other gaming companies might behave that way. I, I don't know the numbers and, you know, and I'm sure they have some guard rails. Um, you know, King has roots in the indie gaming community, if you like. The, the, you know, many, many of our employees in, in the original s- you know, Stockholm Studio and many other studios care deeply about the player experience and, uh, and, and really want to, to do something good, right, and provide a magical experience to the players. And, and hence, you know, it, it was very important to be consistent ethically with, with these principles so that, you know, we could, we could drive employee engagement, and people would be proud to work with King and, and proud to provide that- that experience to the players.

   23. HSHarry Stebbings7:34

       Uh, speaking of people being proud to work with King, you mentioned also kind of the Swedish culture there. Do you think you can use that culture in other countries? Like, do you think it carries over or do you think it's only the magic source of Sweden, the Swedish people?

   24. SKStephane Kurgan7:49

       I see no reason why you can- you cannot bring over ... I mean, um, it's, it's not only the culture. It's just the model of labor relations. To a large extent, they take the drama out of it a- and, uh, and I mean, they, they make beautiful products. You know, in that there are so many f- exceptional Swedish companies, and they're a bit like the Japanese. They- they have that incredible sense of design. They're highly cooperative and, uh, and they j- they just design a, a, a, a working system which basically m- lets them live, you know, pretty normal lives and have families and take good care of their families and themselves, right? And I think that's, that's a model for, you know, the

3. 8:30 – 15:08

   Relationship Building and Leadership Development

   1. SKStephane Kurgan8:30

      rest of it.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings8:30

      W- we're gonna discuss kind of building efficient systems. But my mother's favorite question in a show is actually the question of, if we're all a function of our histories and our pasts, and we all are shaped by our parents in some ways, what do you think you're running from, Stef?

   3. SKStephane Kurgan8:46

      Um, uh, that's a very good question. Well, for a long time, I was running away from them, from, probably from my father. I had a very difficult relationship with him. Uh, you know, I left home, uh, before I finished school, um, and, um, yeah. And so, you know, I think I wa- I, uh, I, I never had somehow, you know, his approval or I never had, you know, recognition from him. And, and, and so I basically, I left that behind and, and went to build a career and a life somewhere else, which is, you know, the UK much later, right? You know, I, I have three kids, uh, who are fantastic, and then we, there was, um, uh, there was basically a speech at school by, you know, a very famous, uh, uh, child psychologist called, uh, uh, Stephen Biddle. And what he was saying is, "If you don't have a good relationship with your dad, how can you expect to have a good relationship with your sons? And what you need to do is bas- if- if you want to, uh, fix that is to go and sit down with your dad and, and, and make peace with him." I hadn't been at war with him or whatever, but you know, I hadn't had that conversation. And so I went to sit down with my dad, probably 15 years ago, and that's the hea- the hardest thing I've done, I wouldn't say in my life, but close, right? And basically, I took him to lunch, and we, we had a, a proper chat, and it's changed a lot of things.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings10:05

      Mm-hmm. Can I ask, has that relationship changed how you parent your three children?

   5. SKStephane Kurgan10:09

      Well, I, I assume so. But, you know, I haven't seen what it would have been if I had not, you know, sat down with him and had that conversation.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings10:18

      Yeah. No, I totally get you.

   7. SKStephane Kurgan10:20

      Yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings10:20

      Right. We're gonna get into, from very deep there, which I love, but to the making of Europe's greatest exec, because I spoke to Frab before, and he actually changed that statement to one of the most effective execs in the world. He said Europe's not enough. Um, and so I said, "Great. Okay." Um, and I wanted to start with high performance when we think about building machines and models. When I say the words high performance to you, what does that mean?

   9. SKStephane Kurgan10:43

      Talking about leaders, um, you know, I, I use ... the way, um, I, you know, evaluate, you know, the performance of the leadership team is I look across four dimensions. You know, the first one is the, the, the, the operating or the financial performance of their function. So, you know, have they beaten their numbers essentially? The second one i- is organizational maturity. So have they built a great team? So, you know, are, you know ... do they, do they have, uh, you know, strong people in, in all the key functions and, and are they challenging them? Have they built, you know, great processes? Do they have great succession in place? The third dimension is, you know, to what extent do, do they contribute to the corporate agenda? You know, because if you're a leader, you have two hats, right? You have your functional or your operational hat and you have a second hat which, which is the collective hat of the collective leadership team. And then the last one is, is, you know, the, the, the, uh, where they stand on, on the leadership journey and the, and, and, and personal. And so are they a role model? Are they a thought leader? Uh, are they, are they being sought after by other people in the organization? Um, are they ... how are they, you know, uh, developing themselves? And, and so I, I look across these four dimensions, um, to, to assess leadership performance. Uh-

   10. HSHarry Stebbings12:07

       Can I ask, where do you find most people fall down?... where do most people struggle when you work with founding teams today? Among those four, where is the most common failure point?

   11. SKStephane Kurgan12:17

       With founders, in the early days, it's ... I don't think that that grid would be applicable because there's so much uncertainty. And so, you know, you can ... I mean, it's important to set targets, uh, early but you need to navigate much more tactically, uh, in, in the early days and the early, early years of building a company. I think the, the framework applies better to professional executives and managers than to founders. You know, we will find the founders spiking exceptionally on some of these-

   12. HSHarry Stebbings12:49

       Yeah.

   13. SKStephane Kurgan12:49

       ... and maybe less on, on some others. Uh, and that's probably okay. They should hire a, a great team, you know, next to them to, to do the rest. I think for them, it's ... you know, a lot of it is gonna be about the ability to put a fantastic team together and, and then show them the way, uh, as opposed to, uh, have, getting high marks on, on all of these dimensions.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings13:08

       And, you know, one thing I find hard which is like, you know, you've worked with the best execs in the world, you've worked with the best founders in the world, both investor-wise and operationally within teams. And then you meet companies and young founders. And naturally, they're young founders, what matters is not where they are but their rate of development, how fast they're learning, how fast they're growing. It's hard because you automatically compare the greats that you work with, your Sonas at Dream Games, to everyone else you're meeting. And naturally, there is a progression pathway to there. Sona five years ago was probably different. How do you think about analyzing rate of development of founders?

   15. SKStephane Kurgan13:46

       Yeah. Well, first, many of them are, uh, are not young in the young sense, right?

   16. HSHarry Stebbings13:51

       (laughs)

   17. SKStephane Kurgan13:51

       If you look at, uh, the, uh, the average age of company founders and ... I think we ... there, there was a study in the US that, you know, successful, you know, founders of, uh, uh, founders of successful software companies in the US are in their early 40s. And so, you know, very often, we work with, with founding teams who are, you know, from late 20s and 30s, sometimes to their early 40s. So the, the, the ... And so, um, obviously, you, you apply a slightly different, uh, evaluation grid at, at, at that stage. But it's really what drives them, you know. What is really their, you know, their, their objective? What are ... Do they wanna build something that's gonna change the world? Are they self-aware? Do they have some ... Are they vulnerable? I mean, great leadership, you know, it's self-awareness and vulnerability as well. And, and those are qualities you, you don't need to be older to have these qualities, right? They are, they on show early.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings14:41

       (laughs) I've, I've nailed the vulnerability thing-

   19. SKStephane Kurgan14:43

       Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings14:44

       ... very early step. (laughs)

   21. SKStephane Kurgan14:45

       Um, uh, and, you know, do we feel that they, they will be able to, to build a great team, you know. Are, are they gonna be ab- ... And you ... That, that's something you can see reasonably quickly actually. You just look around them, you know, if, if, if they, if they already brought, uh, uh, a couple of people with them and you get a sense for, okay, you know, do we believe that, you know, some, some, some of the, the top, top execs will want to, to work with them and, and, and, uh, and go through the

4. 15:08 – 22:08

   Effective Communication and Trust in Teams

   1. SKStephane Kurgan15:08

      journey.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings15:08

      We were talking downstairs actually about relationships and their impact on, you know, being the most effective exec and kind of operator that you can be. When you think about kind of one or two lessons, and this is from Fred, the one or two lessons or secrets in being the most effective and efficient exec, what would you say those are if you were to summarize what has been, you know, now a 15 or so career?

   3. SKStephane Kurgan15:31

      I think you need to do the work. Um, I think you are the service of your team. And that means that you, uh, the, um, that you should not be a consumer of their time, but you, you should be a multiplier of their time and their effort. That means that, you know, before you meet with them, um, you know, if there is material, you read the material. Uh, if you have questions, you send them the questions and you come prepared to the meeting and, and you focus on the couple of issues that, that really matter. And if you apply that discipline to yourself, you will drive it down through the organization and you will have a more me- ... a much more effective and efficient organization. So it's tr- it's role modeling.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings16:12

      Can I ask a weird one?

   5. SKStephane Kurgan16:13

      Yeah.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings16:13

      But often people say, "You should never ask someone to do what you're not willing to do." And that's kind of quite an often said statement. And I go, "What? That's ridiculous." Like, as an exec, you probably shouldn't go through tagging files. Uh, of, of course you're kind of willing to do it, but it's just not an efficient thing to do. Do you agree with it, you shouldn't do what you're not willing to do?

   7. SKStephane Kurgan16:36

      Well, I think you, you shouldn't ask people to do what you haven't been willing to do at some point in your career. I mean, obviously, as, as things evolve, you know, the, the highest impact you, you might have with ... for your, your shareholders and your company and your team might not be, you know, the, the, uh, some of the most mundane tasks. But, you know, if you were never ready to do them, uh, uh, at some point in your career, that's probably not something you should be asking, yes.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings17:03

      Yeah. Now, when we spoke before, you, you gave me some kind of tips and pointers as to where we should take the discussion. There were many which were kind of, um, teasers where I didn't really know where to go with them. Luckily, (laughs) the first one I did, 'cause you said 90% of scaling organizations is communication and decision-making. If we break this down, what did you mean by this and how does that realization change how you lead?

   9. SKStephane Kurgan17:26

      W- when you, you, you run a survey inside a company and, and you ask the company, you know, is, is communication good and d- do you ... are, are you happy with the, the level of communication, the answer is always no. And, and it gets worse as you scale, right? So there is never enough communication, uh, in a company. And if you aspire to be a leader, uh, and it's even true in the public markets, you have to be ready to repeat yourself a lot. Um, and that's good. It's perfectly okay. Uh, but that means you really need to design the organization, um, in a way where you're gonna have very, uh, thorough communication, both vertically and horizontally. So vertically, you ... I think you, you, you want to, you know, communicate with your direct team and then tell them that they have to cascade it all the way down. So they will ... They have to communicate with their teams and then the teams below. And they, they should communicate everything. Unless you tell them, "This you can't share," they should push down every little bit of information to the very bottom of the company because that's how you drive engagement and trust.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings18:29

       Do you teach them how to communicate? 'Cause it's not always obvious to people.

   11. SKStephane Kurgan18:33

       Well, y- you role model it in, in the sense that, you know, if you have your, your staff meeting, you know, at some point, it's your turn and, you know, also you should only communicate what's not been ... what cannot be communicated-... uh, communicate in, in, in writing or through reporting area. You know, when you run a digital organization, it, typically they're very data rich and so we, we, we were, you know, designing and, and, uh, and distributing these very detailed, uh, reports with, you know, which, which would go pretty much everywhere. And, you know, at King, everybody could access the data warehouse, and that was a deliberate choice because that's driving engagement. That means I trust every employee to be responsible with the data. It's very big decision to take when you decide to go public, because if you do that, that means the whole company will be insiders and they can only trade within trading windows. And so you, you have to make that decision on whether you wanna treat your employees as adults and that will, they will be responsible with essentially the data and the power you share with them or whether, you know, you want to allow them to trade any day of the week. You know, we had that discussion I think actually with, um, with Meta. I mean, we were very lucky. We spent time with, uh, Mark Zuckerberg before we went public. It was like a year after his IPO and he shared th- these lessons about his IPO, which was very challenging, right? His stock went down, uh, 50% after the IPO. And I think that, that's one of the, uh, the insights we took from that discussion.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings20:06

       What are the biggest ways that communication breaks down? What are the most striking?

   13. SKStephane Kurgan20:10

       It's when trust breaks down. Because, you know, horizontal communication is also very important so when you, you, you get your staff together, it- i- i- it's all about sharing information or sharing challenges and also, you know, getting feedback from the rest of the team in t- in th- that might help you in, in solving your challenges. And you can only do that in a trusted environment. And so when, you know, at some point, um, as you scale, you know, politics starts to enter the organization where, you know, you might have leaders who do not have the right fit or who might have been imposed or whatever. Suddenly y- you lose the congenial nature of the meeting and the discussion a- around the table and you have a communication breakdown.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings20:57

       Can I ask, do you trust people from day one and it's there to be lost or do you say, "You know what? We're starting a relationship and it's yours to be gained"?

   15. SKStephane Kurgan21:05

       Uh, I mean, y- I think you will, you will definitely give them the benefit of the doubt if you h- had a thorough recruitment process, and you'll be very transparent and, and, you know, you will share with them as much information and as with, you know, any other member of the team in terms of, you know, trusting them with the ability to make the right decision and execute. That trust will be earned over time.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings21:28

       When trust is lost, say someone does something and it doesn't work out and it, uh, whatever reason. So when trust is lost, is there a step to regain it? Is the communication with them... But I find trust, once lost, is very difficult to regain.

   17. SKStephane Kurgan21:43

       That's a personal failure of mine. I have a (laughs) hard time trusting after-

   18. HSHarry Stebbings21:48

       Yeah.

   19. SKStephane Kurgan21:48

       ... you know, after, you know, something goes wrong and, but, but I can get there, but it's hard. Uh, I agree with you. And, uh, but I, but I've been, uh, so, you know, I've, I've, I have a number of specific examples where, you know, I managed to rebuild trust afterwards and, and some where, you know, basically there was always a stain that, that, you know, could never be removed. Yeah.

5. 22:08 – 35:32

   Goal Setting and Feedback for Success

   1. SKStephane Kurgan22:08

   2. HSHarry Stebbings22:08

      Yeah. No. I agree. When... I'm sorry. I am doubling down on this, but when you think about, like, goal setting, how do you think about effective goal setting today?

   3. SKStephane Kurgan22:16

      It will depend on the function. You know, obviously Google has made the fact that, you know, you, you shouldn't, um... You should set goals for engineering teams that, you know, should, should never be fully achieved because that's a way for them to, uh, to be agile and stretch themselves. But also you want to make sure they don't feel like they're failing. So-

   4. HSHarry Stebbings22:37

      Yeah.

   5. SKStephane Kurgan22:37

      ... you know, if, if y- if they have goals that cannot be fully achieved, but th- they don't reach them and it's a failure, that doesn't work. I think that, that's fantastic. And, you know, the, uh-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings22:46

      I'm never sure. Do you want them to f- 'cause I, I want them to feel enough pain of not hitting their goal.

   7. SKStephane Kurgan22:51

      Sure. No, no. So they should be stretched, but what's very important is for teams to set their own goals because that's how they're going to be engaged and that, that's how they will stretch themselves. But if you feel these goals are not stretching enough, then you should challenge them. It's very different with some other functions such as, you know, finance or legal where actually, you know, you need to meet the goals 100%. Your accounts have to be closed on time. If you're a public company (laughs) and, and you need to close your accounts, it's gotta be-

   8. HSHarry Stebbings23:18

      (laughs) We're 70% of the way there, Stef.

   9. SKStephane Kurgan23:20

      ... it's, it's gotta be there.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings23:21

       (laughs)

   11. SKStephane Kurgan23:21

       So, you know, you, you k- y- you, you can't generalize. It's, it's function specific.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings23:26

       What do you think, you work with many founders obviously today, and y- when you see communication break down, what's the commonalities in the mistakes that they make around communication?

   13. SKStephane Kurgan23:35

       I mean, they are n- they're not mistakes. Some, for some of them it takes time to find the right balance. Either they over communicate-

   14. HSHarry Stebbings23:41

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SKStephane Kurgan23:41

       ... so they will share, you know, probably too much data and, and operational data with, with investors and board members with good intentions because that's, they, because they might believe that, that we expect or they might believe we will help with, you know, some, some of that operational detail. Some of the founders, you know, want to keep board and boards and investors, um, at a, at a distance and sometimes there's information, information retention that goes beyond, uh, what makes an investor, uh, and a board member effective. And then you need to sit down and have a pretty direct conversation that it's that's not the deal, right? I mean, when you invest in a company it's, it's a marriage. You know, it's gonna last... If it's early stage, it's gonna last (laughs) for a very long time and you need some level of transparency. If that transparency isn't there, you know, we're not gonna be effective a- and, and, um, we were probably not the right investor for, for that founder.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings24:40

       Stef, we have hundreds of thousands of founders that listen and I think they struggle with this a lot, which is like, "How much information do I share with my wider investor base?" Obviously boards you have to share, you know, board materials and board packs and a lot involved with that. But for investor updates, how do you advise founders on how much to share in terms of information and data?

   17. SKStephane Kurgan24:57

       ... again, I'm not sure there is a, there is a, an, an absolute rule. You shouldn't share, obviously, anything that, that could competitively expose you. I think we are, we're living through very different times today, where, uh, it's obviously much more, much more challenging. You know, there are some very strong headwinds. I think the information you wanna, you wanna share with your investors, you have to be truthful in terms of, you know, how the, the, the company and the team is performing. Uh, but you also, you know, don't want to leak into the market information that could be detrimental to your ability to fundraise or to do a transaction or, or, or to secure, you know, um, new clients, because some clients might ask about the potential longevity of the company, of your company, if, if you are challenged from, from a financial standpoint.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings25:47

       Can I ask, from a communications standpoint, when you reflect on your own, what are the biggest communication mistakes that you've made?

   19. SKStephane Kurgan25:54

       The, they typically would be, uh, um, decisions made too fast and communicated too fast. Um, you know, I think, uh, communication takes work. Uh, and, uh, you need, you know, it takes str- structure. Communication is about telling a story, and telling a story, it, it takes time to, to build, you know, the right narrative and the right structure and find the right words. In my experience, you know, I, I made communication mistakes when I, when I, I communicated wha- before I was ready. Uh, and the... and typically, they would be, um, you know, saying something in front of somebody which, which was not the right thing to say. And, and then, you know, I have no problem to go and apologize. I mean, I'm, I'm, uh, I, I, I can say sorry.

   20. HSHarry Stebbings26:45

       Can you help me-

   21. SKStephane Kurgan26:45

       Yeah.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings26:45

       ... with that? Because I always think when someone does something, and you're providing feedback and communicating back to them, it's best done in real time. You know, "Steph just did this. Let's discuss it now." And as you said, sometimes, uh, things need a little bit more thought.

   23. SKStephane Kurgan26:59

       You c- you can be very, uh, spontaneous with praise. Uh, y- you, you wanna be, you know, very systematic with it. When you see something that's great, you absolutely have to call it. But at the same time, you want to be sparse, because otherwise, it loses quite a bit of its value.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings27:13

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SKStephane Kurgan27:13

       Uh, and, and employees will, you know, everybody will know that if you are sparse with your praise, when you get it, they will value it immensely. I think for, you know, more challenging feedback, you need to pick your time, and, and you need... y- but, you know, it's also highly valued if you have the right team members. You just need to, um, box it in a way where you say, "Hey, by the way, you know, maybe you could have done this differently." Your cl- and, and give an example, and say, but, you know, "No problem," and move on. And, you know, you'll div- you will deal with that within, you know, two minutes or three minutes, not make a beef out of it, move on, and, and it's highly valued by, by the team.

   26. HSHarry Stebbings27:52

       I loved-

   27. SKStephane Kurgan27:52

       Yeah.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings27:52

       ... something you said to me before, which is, "The uncomfortable power of almost radical transparency."

   29. SKStephane Kurgan27:57

       Mm-hmm.

   30. HSHarry Stebbings27:57

       What does the uncomfortable power of almost radical transparency mean?
6. 35:32 – 52:13

   Scaling and Building Successful Companies

   1. SKStephane Kurgan35:32

      that.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings35:32

      You mentioned once that decision is made, speed of execution being so important. Talk to me about speed of execution today within companies and why it's... I think it's the number one difference between those that achieve product market fit and those that don't, but I mean just how fast you have at-bats, I call it. Like, how many shots you take.

   3. SKStephane Kurgan35:50

      And it's part of, you know, sense of urgency, which is another, you know, common theme that, you know, we've heard about many times on the pod- uh, on the podcast. But if you make a decision, just, you know, go and do it as soon as you're out of the door, pretty much. Um, and, um, and, and speed of iteration is, is very important, especially in, in digital businesses. And, you know, to your earlier point, uh, I've seen companies where, you know, they take six weeks or eight weeks or 10 weeks basically to, to, to come up with a, a, you know, a minor, uh, iteration to a, a, a pretty minor feature, and that's just way too slow in, in this day and age. You need to really, you know, come out, hopefully within days, with a new feature and test it and see if it works or not, then... And iterate again and move on again and, and, and go really fast. And you just can't afford to, to have these, you know, cycles in months anymore.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings36:46

      Can I ask, when you think about the decisions you've made, (laughs) what do you think is one of the biggest decisions you've made that changed the way that you think about decision-making?

   5. SKStephane Kurgan36:55

      One of the things, uh, we, we had at King w- was we had, um, uh, we required unanimity for recruitment. We put in place, again, you know, a, a, a well-documented, uh, uh, recruitment process where you need... We wanted six interviews. Um, you, you needed cross-functional interviewer and executive sponsor, and unanimity.... um, and, um, and after, you know, a lot of lobbying, after, you know, five or six years, because we were not meeting our recruitment targets, uh, you know, I agreed to soften the, the criterion, and that if one of the interviewers was neutral, we could still proceed with the hire. And then what happened is, um, actually when, when one of the interviewers was negative, you know, the other five would lobby him to change his rating and, and to go to neutral, and, and they could proceed with the hire. And, and we made a number of wrong hires. And, you know, there is nothing more important when you scale than recruitment, um, and because ... and, and cultural fit. And if you, uh ... There is no doubt, I think one of your, uh, guests said, I think that was Frank Slotman. I completely agree with him. There's much more downside making the wrong hire, uh, than not bringing in the, the right person because, you know, that person, if you scale fast, will be recruiting himself within a few weeks, and, and then you will, you know, create pockets of people who are not culturally aligned with the organization. And before you know it, in a matter of, you know, months, uh, suddenly, you, you have part of your organization, it might be a studio or, you know, it might be a function in somewhere, which doesn't really fit anymore. And that, that's happened a number of times, and then it takes, you know, months or sometimes years to fix this thing. I mean, it's not something you can fix overnight. Uh, the, uh ... Because typically those are important locations and important functions, and, and they misalign with the rest of the business, and y- y- th- your company will not operate well as long as that's the case.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings38:59

      You know the lesson that I have on management is, like, you never stop worrying. And the reason I say that is 'cause with the best people, you worry will leave. The worst people you worry you should fire today. And the middle people you worry are actually good enough. Would you agree with that?

   7. SKStephane Kurgan39:15

      In what we do, in, you know, early stage and, and growth, for most people there is a, there's a, a, a cycle, uh, in the scaling, and so they will be, they will be a, a, a good fit between their skillset and the company for a while. And, you know, it might be a few years, two, three, four years, because, you know, they, they have a certain level of risk appetite and because, you know, they like a less structured organ- organization or more structured, less processed, more processed. And then at some point, it's not the right organization for them anymore, and, uh, you know, you, you need to have grownup conversations, and, and they need to find something w- where, where they can be very successful and where there's a better fit. Without, you know, the ... It's not, you know ... There's n- nobody has failed, it's just, you know, the way things are and, and I think organizations and people should be honest about it. When you scale very fast, it, the, uh, it's very ha- it can be very hard because the, you know ... If you think about our company, we went from, you know, 100 employees to 2,400 employees in three years, and so you have these cohorts who, at the peak, we were hiring 100 employees a month. And so the people who joined obviously at the start of the journey, where they had a very high-risk appetite, they, they had, you know, very horizontal skills, you know, they could do many, many different things, and, you know, they could operate in a, in, in a not-very-organized, uh, company. Um, but then as you get closer, you know, s- suddenly the company becomes much larger, very profitable, right? We, we made almost a billion dollars of EBITDA the year before IPO. And you, you run into IPO and, and you need to specialize, so you, you bring people in functions who have very deep special ex- you know, special, uh, specialized expertise as opposed to horizontal skills. They're less risk-averse. You need to compen- ... You know, they, they look for, you know, a different compensation mix, maybe less equity, more cash. Um, and, and they want to work in, in a more organized environment where, you know, you have a set of processes and you have a set of rules. And, and so you have these cohorts of people who've entered your company, you know, uh, uh, basically within three years who are totally different, and you need to, to retain a single cemented culture th- that wraps around all of them, and that's a huge challenge. So, I think we've, we've tried to keep that culture, and I think we, we had a fantastic culture in, in the company f- for a very long time, and I'm s- I'm sure it's still great. But you have to evolve your values, for example. Your values cannot stay static. So every year you have to revisit whether, you know, the values you had for the company are still, are still the, the, the, the right values. Um, and so, you know, to your point, I think there's a natural cycle of attrition. I think that is the right thing for both the company and the employees, and it's not about failing or underperforming, it's just that it's not the right place for them anymore.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings42:08

      Can I ask, what do you think is a good value? I know it seems stupid, but I'm just thinking about kind of the vu- if I were to say values of my companies. I've ... I don't ... I haven't set values, Stef. Maybe I should have done.

   9. SKStephane Kurgan42:19

      No, no. Look, the, the ... I mean, values is the behaviors you would expect, you know, the, the, the leadership and the, the employees to abide by when they, they are in, in the company environment. And, um, and so what, you know, what we used and actually w- uh, uh, what I would be using if I had another company is, we'd, we'd try to balance them. So for example, o- one of the values was supportive but demanding, right? Because, you know, we were a hugely caring company. I mean, we ... And, and so the, the founding team was fantastic, and they, they ... We had these shared values and, and, uh, uh, you know, and all of us were really, you know, deeply caring ab- about, uh, people and about the employees, and so we were very supportive. But also, um, you know, we j- we wanted people to, to stay focused and, and, and, and to deliver, and, you know, we were-... basically running, you know, the, the, the biggest game in the world. And we, we wa- and, and we had the biggest network of players, and we had a responsibility towards these players. And so we were gonna be demanding with ourselves and with our employees to keep delivering, you know, outstanding entertainment to, to our player base.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings43:27

       I had Akin on the show, and he said that, you know, mission statements are largely bullshit. (laughs) And he mentioned, you know, Facebook, which is obviously kind of tools for communities, and it's a very kind of long-winded and superfluous mission statement. And he basically said, you know, which Facebook employee is, is really kind of, uh, empowered by that statement, and actually they're largely corporate BS. Do you think mission statements have their place and are good?

   11. SKStephane Kurgan43:53

       Again, if you, if you scale to a large company, and it becomes a public company, and you have multiple business units, i- it can get really difficult to put together a crisp mission statement. When you're early stage, it should be pretty straightforward to know what you stand for. And, and actually, I think if you can't articulate a mission statement as a founder, uh, when you're at seed or Series A stage, I, I have a question mark about whether you know, you know, where you're going and, and, and what, what value you, you're gonna be delivering to, to your, your, your clients. I think the, the early mission statement at King was, you know, w- it was about bringing moments of magic, and I think that's exactly what we were doing. We were bringing moments of magic. It was pretty straightforward. Uh, that was our raison d'etre. That was, you know, um... Over time it gets harder.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings44:44

       Yeah. I think kind of one way to scale culture is also by having diverse teams. And before we move into the myth of Sisyphus, which I'm terrified about how to do that well, um, but tell me, what are the biggest lessons on building diverse teams and the myth of Sisyphus?

   13. SKStephane Kurgan45:02

       Yeah. Okay. I mean, it's the, the, it's the challenge of our generation. You know, it's obvious that diverse teams, you know, over time it's performed better. It's not only the right thing to do, it's, it's, it's a, it's a much better thing to do, you know, by the shareholders and by the employees and by all stakeholders. It's very hard, um, because especially in technology companies, you know, the, the recruitment, the recruiting pool, for example, for engineers and, and, you know, and all STEM subjects is not equal from a, from a gender standpoint. Uh, and here I'm talking about, you know, uh, gender diversity as opposed to, you know, other types of diversity. What I was referring to is the, the myth of Sisyphus. So Sisyphus is this guy, it's, who keeps, uh, you know, pushing a rock up a hill and then, and then the rock keeps falling and he has to start again from the bottom of the hill and, and, and push it up again and again and again. So if you look at making your leadership team more diverse from a gen- gender diversity standpoint, you can bring, um, external hires, and there are very few of them. So, you know, a good rule is one-third external, two-thirds internal. And then you develop, um, your female employees and y- you, you, you really over-invest to develop them into managers, into leaders, and, and you have a, a, a set of, of programs around that just to make sure that we're gonna get to that, uh, diversity at, at the top. But then what happens is, because there is such a scarcities, very often once you promote them to an executive level, be it VP or CXO, you lose them within weeks. And so it happened to us multiple times, where we made that investment over years of, you know, bringing up and developing great female leaders, and then when we, when they got to that leadership level where, you know, we wanted them really to, to blossom and, and, uh, and join the collective leadership and lead the company, um, they would be snatched very quickly. And so we had to start again and again and again. Hence the Sisyphus analogy.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings47:11

       Can I be blunt? Is that not your fault? Like, is that not a lack of loyalty there for, you know, we, we see some incredible people like your, you know, uh, Niomis at Metas or your, you know, Sheryls who was there for many, many years. There's two great examples just from Meta, where I'm sure they have every single company in the world wanting to poach them. But the loyalty that Zuck inspired in them, and maybe the share price (laughs) and, you know, aligned worth, but like the loyalty they have meant they stayed. Is that not up to the leader to create that loyalty?

   15. SKStephane Kurgan47:42

       Well, look, it's on us, right? Clearly we failed, you know? Uh, there, there's something that was missing if they felt that, um, it was the right thing for them at that point to, to go somewhere else. There's, there was something missing and we failed to bring it.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings47:58

       How do you know when to pay up for a candidate versus not pay up for a candidate? I'm always hiring, both investment team, media company-wise. People want a lot of money. Um, how do you determine whether to pay up or not pay up, and what would you, just your advice to me be on that one?

   17. SKStephane Kurgan48:12

       As you scale, at some point, you have compensation frameworks and it becomes very difficult actually to go outside these frameworks for a bunch of reasons. If it's for an individual contributor, that's easier. If it's, you know, for, you know, managers or leaders who will fit within the e- the existing organizational structure, um, you know, there are ways you can, you can structure things by, you know, buying out s- maybe some of the existing equity or, or having, you know, one-off, uh, you know, sign-off bonuses or special retention bonuses. But the reality is that you're gonna need to have some consistency. Um, and especially once you're public, basically, you know, a lot of that data is, is gonna be shared with your institutional investors and, and they will actually pay attention. That's one of the things where you have to do a lot of work actually being, before going public, is your, your compensation, uh, uh, policies. Hopefully...... you know, the market is clearing a bit and we're going to a, a place where, uh, you know, the, the balance between, uh, talent and organizations, uh, you know, goes back to something which is closer to the middle as op- as opposed to, uh, being very much, uh, you know, a, a, a seller market to the advantage of the individual, which has been the case for, for the last few years.

   18. HSHarry Stebbings49:26

       You mentioned going public there, and you have done many times. I spoke to JC at our land before the show and he said, "Ask, um, Stef the question of how do you advise founders on when to sell?"

   19. SKStephane Kurgan49:36

       I would never advise a founder on, on when to sell. I think, you know, it's, it's a decision to be made by the founder and if he asked my opinion, then I will tell him what I think. Uh, most of... the large majority will come to the right decision themselves. There are some instances where it's not the case and, and, and then, you know, you want to give a, a little nudge. I mean, it's a- it's obviously a very relevant question for King. You know, we, we sold at a very low multiple. Uh, uh, we sold the company at, you know, 5.9 or so, about $6 billion with, uh... and there was 1.3 billion of cash on the balance sheet when we sold. So, the effective multiple was, uh, you know, five or six times EBITDA. Um, and today, you know, the, the, the effective multiple on King inside Activision is probably, you know, 15 or 18 times EBITDA. So the- it was a huge value arbitrage, but at the same time, it was the right thing to sell at that time because we had had institutional investors who had been in the company for, uh, more than 10 years that, you know, we, we, we... it was important to generate liquidity for them. Um, and, you know, we, we couldn't do it through the stock market. We, we, yeah-

   20. HSHarry Stebbings50:45

       Do you think it is important to generate liquidity for them? You're an investor now. We both know that actually we have long time horizons. We actually have LP bases, if you're bluntly in the fortunate position to have great institutions in you where you can say, "Hey, this asset's taking longer. I want a two-year extension to the funding period, and then we enjoy value appreciation."

   21. SKStephane Kurgan51:03

       Investment funds have a lifetime.

   22. HSHarry Stebbings51:05

       Mm-hmm.

   23. SKStephane Kurgan51:05

       Uh, you know, they... it's typically 10 years and, and there can, there, there can be extensions, but so they will invest with you for eight or 10 years when they, when they invest early stage. And I think you, you need... you know what you get into when you sign w- you sign up with them. You need to figure out a way of, you know, basically finding liquidity and distributing, distributing that liquidity to the institutional investors. One way of doing this is to go public and then for the investors to be able to sell their shares. It was, um, uh, very difficult to do that with King because we were trading below IPO price and because our largest institutional investor had 40% of the shares and it was, you know, they, they just couldn't sell it down. And selling it down, you know, it would have driven, you know... it would have driven the share price, uh, uh, ev- you know, further below, and it would, it would have taken ages. So the, uh... so, you know, basically selling to, to Activision was, was a way of, uh, delivering against that objective, and it was the

7. 52:13 – 1:01:42

   Personal and Philosophical Insights

   1. SKStephane Kurgan52:13

      right thing to do.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings52:13

      So, you gave me Sisyphus-

   3. SKStephane Kurgan52:15

      Yeah.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings52:15

      ... and then you gave me Seneca and the Elixir of Luck.

   5. SKStephane Kurgan52:18

      (laughs) Yeah.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings52:18

      I was looking at this at, you know, midnight over the weekend going, "What on Earth am I gonna do with these?" (laughs)

   7. SKStephane Kurgan52:24

      Yeah.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings52:24

      S- so what does Seneca and the Elixir of Luck mean?

   9. SKStephane Kurgan52:27

      Y- y- y- yeah, l- look. Luck is important in business, right?

   10. HSHarry Stebbings52:30

       Yeah.

   11. SKStephane Kurgan52:30

       You have that, that saying that, you know, uh, w- when, when you ask Napoleon how he picked his generals, he said, "I picked them lucky." And, you know, I was a beneficiary of that. I had a very lucky timing when, when I, I joined King, uh, because I joined right before the launch of the first successful Facebook title. It's a lot easier to, to, uh, to ride a, you know, a, a wave of that sort as opposed to, to going through some of the very challenging times they had before. But, um, you know, the... what Seneca said, you know, going back to the Greeks, is that luck is a combination of opportunity and preparedness, and you have to be prepared. Um, and so when you're prepared, opportunity might knock on your door and then you can seize that opportunity. And so the, the only thing that you can do as a, a professional and the most important thing is to prepare yourself for the opportunity. And so as, as you think about your, you know, your personal development, you should focus on, you know, accumulating skills and knowledge and network so that if and when the opportunity, uh, presents itself, uh, you can seize it and you can execute against it. And that's what I was trying to say. And sometimes it takes a long time. I had a dry patch. I mean, for 10 years I was in... pretty much in the desert, right?

   12. HSHarry Stebbings53:57

       Really? When was that?

   13. SKStephane Kurgan53:57

       Between '01, which was my first large exit. I mean, largish. You know, we... I was working with a company called Enba, so Enba PLC, which was an internet bank. It was the biggest startup of the European bubble. Uh, we raised 250 million and we merged it with the, uh, you know, the internet bank of, uh, uh, Telefonica and, and BBV in Spain for 2.4 billion. Front page of the Financial Times. For a bunch of reasons, that deal was never completed. It was blocked by the Spanish regulator. And so we initiated litigation. We ended up with a settlement with several hundred million euros. Our investors, you know, uh, made, uh, made good returns. Um, you know, the management, uh, got some money, but we had to close... basically sell our customers and our deposits and close down our operations. Relative financial success, not industrial success. But after that, it was really hard to land in Europe. I mean, in the US if you have failed as an executive after building a new startup, you know, they will give you a second and a third chance. At that time, Europe was not like that. It's been really long struggle. Uh, you know, the thing-

   14. HSHarry Stebbings55:02

       What did you, what did you tell yourself in that time?

   15. SKStephane Kurgan55:05

       You know, I had w-... confidence in my abilities. I think I had, you know, performed quite strongly, uh, earlier. You know, I, I had done two companies before, and, and, and actually, you know, both of these companies went on to become unicorns, even if that internet bank was only a unicorn for a few months before the completion. You know, I couldn't find an opportunity, uh, and, um, and so it was, uh, quite a challenging and, and stressful time. Um, and then when another opportunity presented itself, um ... Well, first, I tried to, to ... I was a founder, so I founded a payment company which didn't take off, so I pulled the plug after a year. That was hard too. And then, um, I joined an enterprise software company which, you know, got, uh, uh, crushed by the great financial crisis in 2008. So, you know, I, I worked from '05 to '09, um, in, you know, for, for very little, and then, you know, basically we had to, to restructure and sell that company for, for quite little, yeah.

   16. HSHarry Stebbings56:06

       How do you think about your relationship to money today, Stef? I know it's a weird question.

   17. SKStephane Kurgan56:11

       (sighs) .

   18. HSHarry Stebbings56:11

       But like, a lot of people tie their worth to bluntly, you know, how much money they have. I got a tax bill the other day. It was terrifying. Um, and actually it, it really impacted a lot of my mindset of how I feel about my own value, to my family, to my friends, how I identify myself. When you think about your relationship to money, how do you think about it?

   19. SKStephane Kurgan56:33

       I mean, it buys you freedom and spontaneity, but not happiness. I mean it's ... Of course, you know, it's, it's ... Life gets a lot easier when, when you are liquid, right?

   20. HSHarry Stebbings56:43

       (laughs)

   21. SKStephane Kurgan56:44

       When you're ... When, when you have-

   22. HSHarry Stebbings56:45

       Every LP feels you right now.

   23. SKStephane Kurgan56:46

       Well, you know, well ex- well look if you're raising a family in a, the, in a large urban center like New York or London or a place like this, you know, if you don't, uh, have access to, to some liquidity, life is hard.

   24. HSHarry Stebbings56:59

       Yeah.

   25. SKStephane Kurgan57:00

       I think obviously it's not a means to an end, right? It's like ... And, and, you have to spend it, uh, what's very ... And you have to give it, and you have to invest it, you know, and it can certainly not stay basically stored in some vault somewhere, not doing anything, because otherwise what's the point? Because by spending it and investing it, and buying art, and doing all these things, you know, basically you somehow give it back to the economy, and you, you, you give jobs to people and you, you fund artists and creators and, and you do something good with what you've built.

   26. HSHarry Stebbings57:36

       Speaking of kind of doing good with building and then also opportunity in Sanica, after you joined Index, peak COVID I think it was Nina told me, um, what have been the single biggest surprises of becoming an ambassador?

   27. SKStephane Kurgan57:49

       Yeah, the shock is the ... When you're an executive, especially in the digital business, you have a, a daily clock, right? You're, the feedback loop is, is extremely fast.

   28. HSHarry Stebbings57:58

       Yeah.

   29. SKStephane Kurgan57:58

       So, you know, every morning I would get a thousand data points, you know, with all the reporting. And then suddenly you go to, to a profession where y- the feedback loop is eight to 10 years. And, you know, it's 3000 days. So you go from one day to 3000 days. I mean, of course you have milestones along the way. You know, you have valuations if you fundraise, but we know how, you know, that these are not, uh-

   30. HSHarry Stebbings58:22

       Rigid. (laughs) .
8. 1:01:42 – 1:05:25

   Quick-Fire Round

   1. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:42

      (laughs) I wanna do a quick fire with you, Steph.

   2. SKStephane Kurgan1:01:43

      Sure.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:43

      So I say a short statement, you give me your immediate thoughts. Does that sound okay?

   4. SKStephane Kurgan1:01:47

      Yes.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings1:01:48

      So what single piece of content has had the most impact on you?

   6. SKStephane Kurgan1:01:52

      It's a, uh, it's a very simple small book called the, uh, The Tao of Coaching, which, um, I picked up in my years, uh, at, uh... I, I spent a couple of years with McKinsey & Company, which is a, a, a, a great school. It's a great place to have been to. I borrowed that quote from a venture capitalist actually.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:10

      (laughs)

   8. SKStephane Kurgan1:02:10

      And, uh, um, and, you know, it's, it's a very human, very, um, subtle way of discussing work relationship and how you can manage them and how you can, how you can become a good coach. It's maybe 100 pages long. It's very easy to read, and I think it's very helpful.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:31

      What have you changed your mind on in the last 12 months?

   10. SKStephane Kurgan1:02:35

       Alcohol consumption.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:36

       Huh.

   12. SKStephane Kurgan1:02:37

       For the first time, we went pretty much dry in January. Um, and, uh, and it's been awesome. And we've, uh, you know... So I, I love wine, uh, but I, I, I consume, uh, less of it and less frequently now than, than I used to.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings1:02:53

       And you feel much, much better?

   14. SKStephane Kurgan1:02:55

       Yeah, I feel great. I don't... You know, I thought... We, we, we were, my wife and I were quite surprised and thinking like, "Actually this is really nice and cool." We don't need another glass of wine, or we don't need a glass of wine.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:06

       I stopped drinking entirely.

   16. SKStephane Kurgan1:03:07

       Okay, fantastic.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:08

       Um, and it was... I mean, I needed to (laughs) , um, but it was the single best decision I've ever made. Tequila is, is not my friend (laughs) . Uh, what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you?

   18. SKStephane Kurgan1:03:20

       You know, when I, I left King, I, I received, like, tens of emails of people I hardly knew. Um, maybe some of them, I'm not sure I had met, and they were saying, you know, incredible things. And that's when you realize you've touched people lives. Uh, and, uh, yeah, I mean, I'm still shocked today of... I was not expecting that at all.

   19. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:41

       You can be CEO of any company. What company would you be CEO of, even for a day?

   20. SKStephane Kurgan1:03:46

       I think the coolest thing, it's probably SpaceX, you know. I mean (laughs) , you can play with rockets, you have all the satellites, you have all that stuff. I think, I think in terms of doing something, you know-

   21. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:55

       Totally.

   22. SKStephane Kurgan1:03:56

       ... as a boy (laughs) -

   23. HSHarry Stebbings1:03:57

       Yeah, yeah.

   24. SKStephane Kurgan1:03:57

       ... you know, uh, who likes his toys, you know, I think that's probably the coolest, the coolest company out, out there.

   25. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:03

       What remains your biggest weakness?

   26. SKStephane Kurgan1:04:05

       Great sushi.

   27. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:06

       Great sushi?

   28. SKStephane Kurgan1:04:06

       Yes (laughs) .

   29. HSHarry Stebbings1:04:07

       Really? Where's the best sushi in London?

   30. SKStephane Kurgan1:04:10

       Uh, I'm not gonna tell you. That's, uh, that's, that's a close-kept secret.

Episode duration: 1:05:25