UK Prime Minister Rishi Sunak on Turning the UK Into a Talent Magnet | Full Interview

1. 0:00 – 2:28

   Rishi’s First Job Waiting Tables

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:00

      Rishi, what can I say? I'm so thrilled to be doing this. Our first ever politician on the show, and I so appreciate you taking the time out to join me today.

   2. RSRishi Sunak0:07

      Uh, great, Harry. Fantastic to join you. I didn't realize I was the first. Let's hopefully, uh, hopefully (laughs) not the last, right? So...

   3. HSHarry Stebbings0:14

      I, I'm sure not the last. But I always love to set a bit of context, and when I was doing my prep for the show, I read that your first job was waiting tables in a restaurant.

   4. RSRishi Sunak0:23

      (laughs)

   5. HSHarry Stebbings0:23

      I always think these are quite, like, formative roles, being the first that we have. So how did that time impact your mindset, and what were the takeaways?

   6. RSRishi Sunak0:31

      So, you are right. That was one of my first, uh, proper jobs. And, you know, I guess what it taught me was, yeah, having a job, whatever the job is, is really important. I mean, I wasn't doing the most glamorous work, right? I was setting up tables. I was clearing them away. You know, cleaning things, uh, doing all the, the linen, uh, at the end of the night, and, uh, setting up for the next day, all that stuff. Uh, uh, and at some point, I got to, you know, take people's drinks orders, which was an upgrade by the end of it. But, you know-

   7. HSHarry Stebbings1:02

      (laughs)

   8. RSRishi Sunak1:03

      ... so look, it wasn't glamorous work. It was hard work. But it was amazing to have a job. You know, it was amazing to go to a place for the first time, to do something fulfilling. You know, you get, you get paid for it, which is, which is good. But it, actually just understanding what it's like to go and work, and be part of a team, and those skills, and that experience, is prob- is more important than learning how to set a table, in that sense. So just, you know, I think the having of a job, regardless of where, how glamorous or, or hard it is, is critical, especially when you're, you know, young and starting out. So, that's probably, that's probably the most important takeaway. I think the other thing is, look, it was in, it was a restaurant. It's in the hospitality industry, and over the last year, it, it's an industry that's had a really tough time, and it's an industry that I care a lot about. It employs a lot of people like me long time ago, young people getting their first start, getting their first paycheck. And it also brings, you know, vitality, life, uh, to our, you know, to our way of, uh, to our way of life, right? It's the hum and the buzz of the high street, a town center, a village. And seeing what happened was really sad to me, which is why you've seen quite a lot of effort from me and the government to try and support that, support that industry, because I think it's important.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings2:16

      I have to admit, I'd love to share with you in that gainful employment, but, uh, I think I'm completely unemployable, which is why I've always set up my own business. (laughs)

   10. RSRishi Sunak2:24

       (laughs)

   11. HSHarry Stebbings2:24

       I don't think anyone would ever hire me, which is probably a good thing. Uh, I do wanna move

2. 2:28 – 4:35

   How did attending Stanford impact Rishi’s mindset

   1. HSHarry Stebbings2:28

      forward a little bit though, 'cause I know you obviously spent time at Stanford and graduated from Stanford, which is such a unique perspective and ecosystem to be a part of. How do you think that impacted your mindset today, given that unique experience?

   2. RSRishi Sunak2:41

      Yeah, I mean, look, well, what's it known for, I mean, other than, other than the weather, is obviously, it's, uh, it's, you know, it's, uh, a home of entrepreneurship, creativity, innovation. And, and that's, those are, those are probably the most important ways in which it... It changed my life, right, th- in terms of the trajectory that I was on, and it broadened my mindset out considerably, 'cause you're in that world surrounded by that culture. Uh, and we've tried to bring that into my job here, right? I've, I've talked about trying to create this startup treasury mentality, where we just do things a bit differently, we do things a bit more creatively and innovatively. Um, so that's probably how it's impacted me here. I, I think the other thing that, that Stanford does is it, it teaches you to think bigger than incrementally, uh, and I think that was a, that was a change in approach for me, right? You know, just getting out of a more incremental mindset to a slightly, um, a slightly bigger, uh, more dynamic approach to change. And, and probably thirdly, and prac- this is a bit practical, but, you know, what is it? I was there for an MBA, and it's a place that's the home of technology. Uh, so those two things have stayed with me. The importance of technology and the importance of actually understanding management and how businesses work, which is why we ultimately created something called Help to Grow in the budget, which is, I hope will be, you know, something that stays in this country for a very long time. That's a scheme to help small to medium-sized businesses get the management training they need, mini MBAs, which we know have an enormous difference on people's productivity, profits, employment, uh, but also Help to Grow: Digital, to help small companies adopt new technology like CRM or ERP or accounting, which again, will be good for them, um, and good for the country. So, it, you know, very much that experience helped me create these, these two, two, two schemes.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings4:28

      Do you know what's so fascinating is, this is now a question I ask a lot of CEOs who have kind of very large and kind of impactful organizations, but

3. 4:35 – 6:14

   How do you make a safe space for people to try and fail?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings4:35

      you mentioned the startup treasury mindset there. I'm just too interested. How do you think about creating that safe place for people coming to work to make those more innovative, out there, but also courageous decisions, without the fear of maybe failing or repercussions? 'Cause it's a difficult thing as a leader. How do you think about creating-

   2. RSRishi Sunak4:54

      Yeah.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings4:55

      ... that environment where they feel they can, even if it may not work?

   4. RSRishi Sunak4:58

      Yeah. It's, you know, it's, it's difficult in business. It's even more difficult in politics-

   5. HSHarry Stebbings5:02

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RSRishi Sunak5:02

      ... than in government, right, where, you know, we're just not set up well to be able to say, "Look, we're gonna try some things knowing that some of them are not gonna work, but it's important that we, that we do things." Uh, and, and 'cause, you know, we've gotta figure out new ways to do things, and we've tried to do that, right? When we, when we... I've launched so many new policies and schemes over the past 12, 18 months. You know, is, is it gonna be the case that every single one of them is brilliant in retrospect? No, probably not, right? But A, we were making policy in a crisis, and you've, you've just gotta... You know, we were dealing with a, a pretty much unprecedented situation. So unsurprisingly, we had to throw some unprecedented solutions at it and not quite know exactly what was gonna work, what exactly was gonna make the difference. And ultimately, I think what I try and do inside...... the treasury is people need to feel confident that I'm willing to go in front of them up, and ultimately take responsibility for them and explain to the country why we tried some things, and if, if they turn out, in retrospect not to have worked, so be it. That's on me. But hopefully, that gives them the confidence to come up and present me with interesting ideas, knowing that, that you've got someone who's, who's willing to, to try some things. And, you know, that, uh, you can see that in the policymaking we've done.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings6:12

      Final one before we move into the meat

4. 6:14 – 7:47

   Do you do post-mortems on policies?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings6:14

      of the show, but I do just have to ask you, when you have product launches, you have postmortems on how well they went. When you have new policies, like you mentioned there, do you do postmortems on what went well, what didn't? How do you think about measuring effectiveness and success as a team of the policies that you create?

   2. RSRishi Sunak6:29

      Yeah. You know, we do, we do. I mean, government has a very formal process where you review policies on some fixed-

   3. HSHarry Stebbings6:35

      (laughs)

   4. RSRishi Sunak6:35

      ... uh, time frame, uh, as you might imagine. Um, but we- we're, we're constantly doing that bec- ... And a lot of what I've done is still bedding in, right? So it's not as if it's done. So we're constantly iterating it as it, as it's going, which again is probably a novel approach, right, and being okay with that. Uh, and I'm quite okay with that. Uh, you know, again, easier to do in a pandemic, but happy to say, "Look, we've started this thing." Some of our loan schemes being a good example of that, and they didn't work day one.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings7:00

      Right.

   6. RSRishi Sunak7:01

      And, but that's okay, um, 'cause ended up with things clearly not working. We go back. We're gonna iterate. We're gonna change this, change that, and got it to a place where it did. Um, so I think we're still doing that, and then after the fact, we definitely sit down. I do, 'cause I'm constantly on a ... You wanna be on a journey of continuous improvement, right? You wanna just learn from what you did well, so you can embed it, and the things that didn't go well, learn from them, so you don't do them again. So actually, we have that mindset generally here, that we're always doing that and figuring out what can we do better, what do we learn from our mistakes. But I think that's vital for any organization, right? I mean, that you- you don't progress without that kind of mindset.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings7:35

      It absolutely is. It's just interesting for me interviewing you now, the parallels between kind of startup and like business CEO-ship and what you do. Um, it's fascinating on the other side of the table for me to see that.

5. 7:47 – 10:08

   What does the UK need to do to attract more talent?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings7:47

      I do have to ask, 'cause another element of any kind of great leader is actually talent attraction, and when we think about, you know, the UK today, um, I really wanna understand, what do you think in terms of what do we need to do in the UK to become a global talent hub and to be that talent magnet? What do you think we need to do?

   2. RSRishi Sunak8:05

      So this is, uh, this is really important, and I think whenever I speak to people in, in your industry, probably the number one thing they talk to me about is people, right? So your- the success of all your businesses are based on the quality of the people you have. And i- I wanted to tackle the immigration side of it in the budget, is attract ... Look, I want this to be the best place for people to come. I want us to be able to attract the best and the brightest. So at the budget, we announced what I think are, are probably the most far-reaching set of reforms to high-skill migration that we've seen in this country for years. Um, so we said we're gonna introduce an unsponsored visa, right, so it's not linked to a job. It's a points-based, uh, unsponsored visa. Uh, we said we're gonna launch a new, uh, as part of that, a scale-up visa, which is something that, uh, we'd been, well, had been recommended to us by the fintech review that we had done. So, but we're gonna broaden it beyond fintech, so there'll be a s- specific scale-up stream. Uh, we're gonna reform our global talent visa 'cause it, it's quite a good, quite a narrow definition of who tal- who counts as talented, so we're gonna broaden it out to a much greater group of people with prizes and accomplishments. And then our innovator visa, which many of y- your colleagues will be familiar with, um, is, is we're gonna reform it to make it easier for people who wanna found a business and have the skills to do so to get that visa that will enable them to do it. That, that has definitely not worked as well as we would have wanted it to. And we're gonna expand the global entrepreneur program, which is our outreach, uh, effort, where, you know, my, my vision is we, we, you know, we have a UK person who's at Stanford trying to figure out who the best and brightest are over there and, and come and attract them to the UK whilst they're actually doing their MBA or their, um, computer science degree or whatever it might be. Um, so on all of those things, we're making pro- ... We announced them all at budget. We're gonna make progress on them during the year and then implement them, uh, as we go. I think if we do all of those things, it, I think we can confidently say that this is probably the country with the most supportive regime for attracting talented people to come work here, set up businesses, or work in growing companies.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings10:05

      Uh, no, I- I totally agree, and I thought it was amazing to see those

6. 10:08 – 13:32

   What policies would you have done differently given hindsight?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings10:08

      kind of, uh, policy introductions. I guess a question that I have is, like, with those fantastic introductions, if you take the alternative stance, which is kind of looking back or on review, are there elements where you, where you look at some of the policies or you look at some elements, and you're like, "Hmm, with hindsight, I would, I would have done this differently," or, "We could have changed that," or, "We could have altered that better"? Are there elements where you would have done it differently?

   2. RSRishi Sunak10:30

      I mean, we were talking, uh, you know, before we started about the future fund-

   3. HSHarry Stebbings10:33

      Yeah.

   4. RSRishi Sunak10:33

      ... as, as something that we, you know, we did that, uh, was hopefully important for, for this community that I care a lot about. You know, what worked, I think it was, is, uh, um, well, it's, it serves as a good example of the kind of mindset we approach. You know, one is we moved quite quickly.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings10:51

      Mm-hmm.

   6. RSRishi Sunak10:51

      So, you know, start-to-finish, it happened very quickly. It, you know, we worked with industry, uh, so we didn't just sit here in an ivory tower to try and develop the policy. We were out, you know, almost beta testing it, you know, wi- with people who have to interact with it when it launches to get the design of it right from, from the get-go. And then it has a name, and it has a brand. And you've seen that across what we've tried to do. I think government can't be so removed from people, right? The people need to understand what we're doing, uh, not just so hopefully they- they're grateful for it, uh, but, you know, they can hold us accountable for it. So across the, whether it's bounce back loans or the future fund, you know, we've tried to do things that will then ultimately resonate and connect with people, um, so that, you know, I think, and, and the brand is great. I think it, it speaks to what we're trying to do with it, and, and people have responded well to it. You know, what we got wrong is, you know, we obviously underestimated the, the demand for the product, so our, our kind of market analysis-

   7. HSHarry Stebbings11:45

      (laughs)

   8. RSRishi Sunak11:45

      ... (laughs) um, was, was probably a bit, was probably a bit off, so we had to upsize it and do that quickly 'cause people were worried that it would, it would run out, and there was this fixed thing. Even though I'd said at the beginning, "Look, if it, if there's more demand, we will increase it," that message hadn't got through, so actually in the beginning people were really-... panicked and upset that it would be a fixed pot if they didn't apply the next day or two. Um, so that, that was a, kind of that was on us to, to communicate that better at the beginning. But ultimately, we upsized it and it was fine, and what was going to be a 250 million pound fund ended up being a billion pound fund. And then there was, there was a constant debate about where do you set the lower threshold. Um, and- and- and we- I've got to balance two things there. You know, there'll be good companies who say, "Look, we haven't raised that much money and we only want to raise a little bit more, uh, and you're not letting us because we haven't raised enough money previously." I- I've got to balance that against, look, this is taxpayer's money, and by having these thresholds in the match fund, that's my way to try and protect taxpayers as much as possible. 'Cause I'm not sitting here, nor my team, making investment decisions. This is a, you know, if you, if you meet these criteria, you get cash. Um, so we needed the criteria to do the heavy lifting of trying to ensure we are broadly backing companies that are likely to, to go on and do well. Um, and that's why we had to have some of these thresholds and criteria in there, and that people are gonna debate, you know, are they, are they... Some people will say they're too lenient, many- too many companies that shouldn't have got money will get money. Others are gonna say that they're too strict and you're missing out on, on some good opportunities. But, you know, that- that balance is one that we probably won't know for some years, whether we got it right or not.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings13:18

      I- I'm gonna be totally honest, when- when I look at what you do, I always feel quite sorry for you (laughs) 'cause I think whatever you do, someone will always be unhappy. So I'm just like-

   10. RSRishi Sunak13:25

       That- that is- that is an accurate (laughs) accurate reflection.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings13:28

       So, you know what? I sympathize in that respect. Can I ask a, a kind of tough

7. 13:32 – 15:45

   The Removal of Entreprenuer’s Relief

   1. HSHarry Stebbings13:32

      one, but people suggested before the show, um, and I'm just, I- I want to understand more. And it's like, on Entrepreneurs Relief, people were asking about its removal.

   2. RSRishi Sunak13:41

      Yeah.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings13:41

      And I wanted to understand, like, why would it be beneficial to remove it, and like, what's the logic behind it?

   4. RSRishi Sunak13:47

      Well, you know what, we talked about branding actually before. Like, that's one of these things which is te- you know, is misnamed, right? (laughs) 'Cause, it's like, why do you want to get rid of this thing that sounds good for entrepreneurs? You like entrepreneurs, you know, here we are talking about the importance of entrepreneurship. So, I think, look, in- in a nutshell, the relief, you know, the relief is not doing what it said on the tin. Right? It was, it was being used for lots of other things, and actually had been cited by lots of policy experts, whether it's think tanks or others, as being a really awful relief. I think one of them called it the UK's worst tax relief.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings14:19

      (laughs)

   6. RSRishi Sunak14:20

      Uh, and- and the reason for that was, you know, you had lots of people who were not genuine entrepreneurs who were able to- to use it to essentially just reduce their tax bill, and that- that's not what it's there for. It was not having any real impact on people saying, "Well, I- I- I'm starting this company because of Entrepreneurs Relief." I mean, how many times have you heard that from anyone you've- you've met? Um, so, I think given all of that, we were able to not scrap it, as many people wanted us to do, but reform it. 80% of the people who were using the relief before still benefit from what's been put in place, so actually, the vast majority of people, um, who were using it will be unaffected. We- but by reforming it, we've managed to tackle some of those, uh, things that we, we didn't like. And if you think more generally about that, do you get rewarded as an entrepreneur for working really hard, building a business, and creating wealth? Uh, in this country, you do. If you look at capital gains tax rates, effective capital gains tax rates on the same, you have, you have a brilliant, you- you create your unicorn, y- you know, good for you, right, and you're gonna make a lot of cash. It- you'll probably pay 20% capital gains tax rates in the UK on all of that. Uh, in France, when all is said and done, you're probably paying closer to 30. And in California, which we all love and celebrate, uh, you're probably paying closer to 37, right, when you add all the state taxes in. Uh, so, look, is this, is this a place that rewards entrepreneurship financially from a tax perspective? 100% it does.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings15:43

      Totally with you. On the

8. 15:45 – 18:38

   How can the UK use capital gains taxes to incentivize entrepreneurship?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings15:45

      cap gains side, how do you think about using cap gains as a way to incentivize ambition, incentivize attractions to the UK? How do you think about using it as a tool and as leverage to really make sure the best are built here and we inspire the next generation of entrepreneurs to build in the UK, I guess?

   2. RSRishi Sunak16:04

      So yeah, so I- I mean, I just gave you those stats, right? So on those, on those stats we- we rank really favorably. Um, and I think we should, right? We- this should be an attractive place for people to come and do it. I think people sometimes fixate on the tax side. It's- it's one of many things in our shop window, right? I- I- that's what I always say. We actually just had a, there was a survey out this morning I saw in my, um, uh, press read from, uh, ENY, which was talking about the UK as... They do a- a survey of, uh, of businesses about where they're gonna do FDI, for example, and- and we ranked, I think, top, and the intention to invest in the UK is the highest it's been in- in the- since whenever they've been doing the survey. Which, you know, hopefully is a decent long time. So that- so that actually means something. But, you know, that just gives you a sense of it, th- this is an attractive place to invest. Tax is always a- one part of the shop window, but you talked about skills. I hear that more than I hear about tax when I talk to businesses or entrepreneurs. It, you know, skills and people, uh, are- are probably the most important thing, and then things that the government is doing to invest in, whether it's R&D, innovation, and in infrastructure, whether that's building broadband or- or anything else. It- those are the kinds of things people want to care about, as well as just tax. And I think on a, when you look at all these measures, OECD, World Bank, Forbes, W- World Economic Forum, we- we consistently rank as one of the best places to come and do business anywhere in the world, and that's something I'm proud of, and- and it will continue.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings17:30

      You mentioned the trade-offs earlier. I- I love this one, which is like, I think a lot of people think, you know, you can do a lot of things just freely. Um, but i- we know it's not quite that easy. So I guess, what are the things that people and we assume government can and should do, but in reality, it's not that easy and you can't just do that? Are there striking ones?

   4. RSRishi Sunak17:51

      Gosh. Yeah. I mean, look, I, you know, people always want you to do everything, right? And it's not their job to deal with the trade-offs, as you say.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings17:58

      Yeah.

   6. RSRishi Sunak17:58

      Right? So they kind of assume, the- they assume...... you know, the- the- their thing is the most important and they're not having to worry about what everyone else thinks is the most important thing. And I, you know, people- people generally don't ever worry about who's gonna pay for it. So (laughs) I- I- I get- I get, you know, out of the 100 people that say something to me, probably 99 of them are, "Please, can you spend some money on something?" And maybe one of them is that, "Here's an idea for you to- to raise some money to pay for it." So that- that's- that's probably the- the- the slight unbalance in the, uh, in- in the- in the engagement I have.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings18:36

      I- I- I'm- I'm sure. No, I

9. 18:38 – 23:48

   What can the UK do to catalyze other types of investments?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings18:38

      totally agree with you there. Uh, c- can I ask, in terms of like... You mentioned kind of Future Fund earlier. In terms of, like, catalyzing other investment, you know, pension funds aren't traditionally as invested in venture and the startup ecosystem as maybe they are in other countries. What do you think we can do to catalyze this and other inflows of investment into the sector beyond, you know, Future Fund which is amazing, but obviously can't be relied upon i- in a Well- ... normalcy.

   2. RSRishi Sunak19:04

      Yeah. No, it can't, right? 'Cause it's not the government's job fundamentally to-

   3. HSHarry Stebbings19:08

      Yeah.

   4. RSRishi Sunak19:08

      ... to do that long term, right? It's one thing to step in in a acute crisis to make sure we don't lose an important part of our innovative ecosystem. Yeah, but you're right. It's not- it's not, uh, the- the sustainable long-term solution. And you're right about our pension fund industry, right? We have, you know, either the second or third largest pension fund industry, I think, in the world. Um, it has historically, when you benchmark it to places like the US or Canada or others, underinvested in illiquid assets, uh, like VC, uh, and PE. Um, and it's been a longstanding feature. We- we're trying a couple of things to change it. You know, one is something called the- the Long Term Asset Fund, which is a new model that we're working on with the Bank of England, the FCA, and the industry to create a vehicle that hopefully will deal with some of the liquidity issues that pension funds have whilst investing in illiquid assets. So we announced that, uh, a- a while back and that work- in November last year. So that work is ongoing, and hopefully by the end of this year, it will be established, and that's something that everyone's excited about to try and unlock some capital. The other thing is this thing called the charge cap, which the slightly more technical-minded, uh, members of your community will know about. There are some rules and regulations about the fees that pension funds, uh, are c- are- are allowed to- to, I guess, charge and then ultimately, therefore, determines what they can invest in, and I think th- what we- what we've heard is those rules actually are- are too restrictive and inflexible to deal with the lumpiness of VC returns, uh, and- and indeed the nature of them.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings20:42

      Yeah.

   6. RSRishi Sunak20:42

      Uh, uh, and what we're doing is consulting on whether you can perha- for- for example, smooth that. But... So this charge cap has an annual limit on the fees. VC returns can be very lumpy so you get very large years of return. You know, then you breach this fee threshold. Well, that's a bit silly if for no other reason you've been doing the, you know, the- the losses of your J. Uh, so we're looking at smoothing some of that out and introducing a bit more flexibility to it. It's been a call from the industry for a long time, and hopefully we can get on and fix it, and that will help. But I think the most important thing is probably cultural, and that is a hard thing. You asked before, "What can governments not do?" And that is probably, you know, uh... I should have said it then. You know, governments, it's hard for governments to change the culture, that we can provide nudges and fiscal incentives to try and get people to do things, you know, but changing the culture is- is quite a hard thing to do, uh, for a government to do.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings21:30

      But I do wanna... I always think, bluntly, um, you're not humanized enough. Like (laughs) there's-

   8. RSRishi Sunak21:36

      (laughs)

   9. HSHarry Stebbings21:36

      ... a human- a human Rishi behind the brand, and I always think, "I really wanna know what that's like." So I'm gonna ask you some really human questions that actually I'm sure-

   10. RSRishi Sunak21:44

       Great.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings21:44

       ... loads of people will want to know. What does your morning look like, Rishi? What time do you get up? What's your go-to for breakfast?

   12. RSRishi Sunak21:50

       (laughs)

   13. HSHarry Stebbings21:50

       Like...

   14. RSRishi Sunak21:51

       Right. Okay. Uh, morning. So, uh, but what time do I get... I get up any- I- I mean, I get up later than I used to 'cause I'm- I'm more tired sadly than I used to be.

   15. HSHarry Stebbings22:00

       (laughs)

   16. RSRishi Sunak22:00

       Um, so any- anywhere from 6:00 to 7:00, in that range, depending on what gym I'm doing. Uh, y- you know, so I have two young ki- kids, two girls, so part of that is school and everything, getting them ready, uh, for that. Uh, in terms of breakfast, it- I generally... Well, I do some intermittent fasting, so on those days, nothing. Uh, otherwise I probably have Greek yogurt and blueberries during the week, uh, and then I have a second breakfast mid-morning which is either the Gail's cinnamon all-in-one bun or a pain au chocolat or a chocolate chip muffin. So I have one chocolatey, sugary pastry at some point, and then at the weekend we have a cooked breakfast, full cooked breakfast on Saturdays, and on Sundays we alternate b- between pancakes and waffles. So we do pancakes, but American style so the, you know, American thin crispy bacon, blueberries, strawberries, and pancakes. That's- that's Sunday.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings22:49

       And-

   18. RSRishi Sunak22:50

       And then we interchange pancakes and waffles every week.

   19. HSHarry Stebbings22:52

       I'm so glad that the diet gradually got worse. I was feeling terrible about my life there for a second. (laughs)

   20. RSRishi Sunak22:58

       (laughs) It's- it's bad during the week. I mean, 'cause I have this- I have this problem with, uh, yeah, I need to have this sugary pastry thing, uh, most mid-mornings. So, yeah.

   21. HSHarry Stebbings23:07

       Y- you mentioned the gym element. What's the exercise routine? You're a very active person, Rishi. What does the exercise routine look like for you? I know you're a Peloton man too.

   22. RSRishi Sunak23:16

       Uh, yeah. So I- I- I do... Well, I- you know, it's been destroyed, my exercise routine, by this job. So sadly, that- that's the first thing to say. I mean, I- I used to try and do three days a week, but I- I mix it between doing probably one session on Peloton, uh, one session on the treadmill, and then one- one HIIT class of s- I... Normally I'm in North Yorkshire at the weekends in my, uh, leisure center there. They've got a great Sunday morning HIIT class. Um, uh, so I do that when I can, and then otherwise, yeah, treadmill and Peloton during the week.

10. 23:48 – 26:38

    Rishi’s First Budget & How He Deals with Nerves

    1. RSRishi Sunak23:48

    2. HSHarry Stebbings23:48

       Last one before the quickfire round, but, uh, (laughs) I remember watching your first budget, um, and I thought it was one of the best budgets I'd ever seen. I remember watching it with my brother who doesn't like finance and he was inspired and I thought, "Jesus, that's- that's (laughs) quite a thing if you inspired him." Um, but my thing being-

    3. RSRishi Sunak24:05

       (laughs)

    4. HSHarry Stebbings24:05

       ... were you nervous being in your first budget, and how do you deal with nerves today?

    5. RSRishi Sunak24:09

       I- I was very nervous when I did my first budget. I think I'd got the job about three and a half weeks before, and I was extremely nervous. It's a big day in Parliament, um-... and it's packed, so one of, you know, one of the few occasions where every seat is taken or everyone's standing as well. So it's, um, you know, it's a stressful environment anyway, e- especially when you've only had the job three weeks. It's the only time... And I don't know how I got through it, but it's the only time my wife has ever come to see me do anything in Parliament, was that day. (laughs) Um, so there's a gallery at the top and she came and sat opposite, um, and, uh, I kept looking up at her a lot, uh, before I, uh, before I started. So that, that's kind of how I just about got through, uh, through that. And then, you know, you get a lot of support from your colleagues. Politics is a team sport. And, you know, I've got, you've got lots of your colleagues all around you, and they're willing you to succeed and cheering you on, and that, that really helps. Um, so yeah, a combination of them and, and, uh, the unique appearance by my wife in Parliament helped. Uh, and I, you know, how do I do, deal with it today? Gosh, I don't know if I have any secret. I guess, first of all, it's okay to be nervous, I guess. I mean, I, I, I'm al- you know, I get nervous when I do... You know, mainly when you do live TV-

    6. HSHarry Stebbings25:17

       Yep.

    7. RSRishi Sunak25:17

       ... right? That's, that's probably the thing that is, um, you know, most nerve-wracking 'cause it's unpredictable and, and what you say matters and, and people, you know, pick apart a- any word or phrase. Uh, but, you know, I say to people, "Look, it's like..." I do it when I'm talking to, uh, schoolkids in my constituency. I was like, "It's totally okay to be nervous. I get nervous," and, you know, so if you're getting nervous when you're doing your debate class at school, that's okay. Uh, I, you know, I, I... you just, you just gotta, you know, try and imagine you're not speaking to the person you're speaking to, is my general, uh, advice. Just imagine you're speaking to your parents or something. And if you do that, I, I feel like it, it's generally easier.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings25:53

       Yeah. No, my grandmother always told me to imagine the audience naked, but that rather distracted me, so I, I... rather, I-

    9. RSRishi Sunak25:58

       (laughs)

    10. HSHarry Stebbings25:58

        ... disregarded that piece of advice. (laughs) Um, uh, I do wanna move into a quick-fire here, Rishi. So I said-

    11. RSRishi Sunak26:04

        Got it.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings26:04

        ... a short statement, you hit me with your immediate thoughts. Ready to roll?

    13. RSRishi Sunak26:07

        Okay.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings26:08

        What's your favorite book and why?

    15. RSRishi Sunak26:10

        Oh my gosh. Uh, right. I, I mean, some of my favorites are, like, A Suitable Boy by Vikram Seth, The Count of Monte Cristo, To Kill a Mockingbird, Harper Lee. But probably my favorite, if you're gonna f- force me, is, is Roald Dahl. Uh, he was... uh, you know, I absolutely loved all Roald Dahl books. Going Solo is one of my all-time favorite, uh, books. Um, and, uh, yeah, so Roald Dahl, probably favorite author. And, and Going Solo and Boy, his biography, autobiography, probably

11. 26:38 – 27:19

    Hardest Part about Rishi’s Job

    1. RSRishi Sunak26:38

       my, my favorite books.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings26:39

       What's the hardest element of your role today, Rishi?

    3. RSRishi Sunak26:42

       Uh, it, it... We talked about it. It's, um... The hardest thing is trying to divide up the pie, right? And that is the hardest part of my, my job. We have a, we have a pie, it's a big pie, it's a growing pie, uh, but, you know, dividing it up is tough, and 'cause that means I have to say no to some people. And, and everyone will want the pie split a slightly different way, or thinks we could just magically have a bigger pie, so that is without question. That, that decision, that, those trade-offs are the hardest thing.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings27:06

       What advice do you often give but find hard to take?

    5. RSRishi Sunak27:09

       Oh, that, uh, d- delegate and don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good. I'm, I'm very guilty of, uh, of, of not doing enough of, uh,

12. 27:19 – 27:30

    If you could change anything with the wave of a want, what would it be?

    1. RSRishi Sunak27:19

       either of those.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings27:21

       If you could change one thing with the wave of a wand, what would it be?

    3. RSRishi Sunak27:24

       Uh... (laughs) Uh, probably I'd have all Coke be Mexican

13. 27:30 – 28:47

    Where does Rishi want to be in 5 years?

    1. RSRishi Sunak27:30

       Coke.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings27:31

       (laughs) And, and then final one, if we sit down in five years' time and everything's gone to plan, where would we be, Rishi?

    3. RSRishi Sunak27:39

       Gosh. Uh, yeah, five years' time, what... Well, lots... Look, lots of people have lost their jobs, you know, in the past year. That's the thing that is motivating me the most, is helping people get into work. So, you know, I... five years' time, I just wanna get everyone into work, get everyone back into work, create as many jobs as possible. Um, you know, fix our borrowing and debt, which has obviously taken an absolute hammering, and get that back under control. It's an important part of my job and one I take seriously. It's one of my responsibilities. You know, and lastly, it's that we emerge from this, uh, r- you know, remaining one of the best places for people to grow their businesses, to create new products, to create new services, that this remains a home of, of innovation in all its guises. And that all of that activity ultimately creates new things for people that makes our lives better, um, and richer to lead, but in the process creates employment for people, creates jobs, creates wealth for our country, um, so that it's just a fantastic place to be.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings28:39

       Rishi, this has been so much fun to do, so thank you so much for joining me today, and it's been a huge pleasure.

    5. RSRishi Sunak28:44

       Absolute pleasure, Harry. Thanks so much.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings28:46

       You are a star.

Episode duration: 28:47