Will Wu: Top Five Product Lessons from Creating Snapchat "Discover" and "Chat" | E1111

1. 0:00 – 0:58

   Intro

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:00

      What are the single best qualities you look for in a product designer?

   2. WWWill Wu0:03

      I specifically look at (beep) . I think it speaks volumes.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings0:07

      This is Will Wu. He's the CTO of Match Group and former VP of Product at Snap. He was responsible for shipping some of Snap's most successful features, including the Discover page, chat feature, and Snap Games.

   4. WWWill Wu0:19

      When you are creating a novel product, something that's truly innovative and new, simplicity is paramount towards making it easy to use and easy to grok.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings0:30

      What would you say is the biggest mistake founders make when hiring product teams?

   6. WWWill Wu0:34

      Not getting rid of poor culture fits fast enough.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings0:38

      How does product culture go bad?

   8. WWWill Wu0:40

      Again, I can only speak to my experience.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings0:45

      Will, I am so excited for this. I heard so many good things from many different people, but especially the incredibly good-looking Jack Brodie. So thank yous first so much for joining me.

   10. WWWill Wu0:55

       Thanks so much for having me. It's really a- a privilege to be here.

2. 0:58 – 4:19

   Will’s Tech Journey & Satellite Story

   1. WWWill Wu0:58

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:58

      Uh, it's very, very kind of you. But I wanted to start with your entry into tech first. I like a bit of context. So how did you first get interested in tech and product? Let's start there.

   3. WWWill Wu1:06

      Okay. So we'll go way back. I was very lucky to grow up in a household just surrounded by tech and science. My dad was an electrical engineer working in the semiconductor business in Silicon Valley. My mom was a PhD in chemistry. So growing up, my dad would always bring home the latest computer gadgets. And actually, for whatever reason, I was just always so curious about how these computers and technology worked. So much to his chagrin, I would, like, tear them apart. I would get out my tool set and, like, start unscrewing everything and literally tear apart these computers, and then I would never put them back together, which just, like, drove him insane. Um, but I just grew up around computers. And I had a really formative experience when I was around 12 years old. Um, so sort of starting in my, when I was 12 and going through my early teenage years, where I discovered on my computer on the internet what's called IRC. Do you know what IRC is?

   4. HSHarry Stebbings2:07

      No, I don't. But please keep going-

   5. WWWill Wu2:09

      Okay. All right. So-

   6. HSHarry Stebbings2:10

      ... because this moment is fascinating.

   7. WWWill Wu2:11

      So IRC stands for Internet Relay Chat, and it is essentially... I think it was invented in the late '80s, but it's essentially the first ever form of internet chat rooms. So as a 12-year-old kid, I would log on to IRC in my childhood bedroom every single night, literally, and connect with str- (laughs) strangers online. And it sounds like a little bit weird, but I met some of the most brilliant people you could possibly imagine. Because if you, if you think about the types of people that are on IRC, and this is in the early 2000s, um, I can only imagine they were these, like, middle-aged computer scientists who had literally invented computers and- and the internet and everything. So they mentored me, and I learned from these strangers on the internet. I literally have no idea who they are. Uh, I learned from them just so much about computers and technology. I learned about cybersecurity and cryptography and computer networking and video encoding. And I- actually, I- one of my- my parents' favorite stories to tell is that, um, when I was 13 years old, I went out on Craigslist and I bought a used satellite dish. And I was, like, taking guidance, mentorship from the people that I was talking to online. And I ended up taking this used satellite dish, crawling up onto the roof of my parents' home, and literally drilling holes into the roof to mount this satellite dish. And then I figured out how to point it at a TV provider's satellite up in, up in the sky. And then I ran the cable into the back of my computer to see if I could decrypt the signal. And it was sort of- so technology was like my playground growing up. I was just constantly exploring different facets of what was possible. And it was just, like, out of a pure intellectual curiosity to see- to understand how technology computers worked, because it's just magical to me. It's like, how is it possible that we've created these devices that can just do so many things?

   8. HSHarry Stebbings4:09

      Okay. So we have this, like, innate love. I love that in terms of climbing onto the roof. Also terrified for health and safety reasons.

   9. WWWill Wu4:15

      (laughs)

   10. HSHarry Stebbings4:15

       Your parents must be going, "My word, he needs to find some more friends." But-

3. 4:19 – 7:24

   Snapchat Product Design Experience

   1. HSHarry Stebbings4:19

   2. WWWill Wu4:19

      (laughs)

   3. HSHarry Stebbings4:19

      Um (laughs) - I'm kidding. So my question is, we have this innate love of product and technology at such a young age. I was, uh, told I had to ask about that, and then I was told I had to ask how you came to Snap. What's that story?

   4. WWWill Wu4:30

      So basically, I think the first half of my life was really thinking about myself as a technologist, as an engineer. I saw my- my father as a role model. And he was an electrical engineer, so that's what I ended up studying. And then, um, I had gone to school in electrical engineering and ended up going to grad school in computer science. And I had dropped out of grad school to start a company with some amazingly brilliant people that I met there. And the company was actually also about online connection. I think this formative experience that I had meeting all these strangers online when I was a kid really helped me understand the impact that online connection can have. And, uh, so I started this company. We were building a group messaging app, which was sort of the hot thing to do in Silicon Valley at that time. One day, a mentor of mine walked into my shared coworking space with Evan, the co-founder and CEO of Snap, or Snapchat at the time. And, um, this was in, this was in late 2013. So Snapchat was still a startup. It was already growing to be very popular. I was already an avid user. My mentor was just like, "Hey, Will, this is Evan." And I was- at first I- I had no idea who he was, and then I quickly realized that he was the CEO of Snapchat. I got really excited because I was an avid user. And, um, he and I just had a really good conversation. So we ended up going to lunch together, and I remember we were getting to know each other telling stories. And I started telling him the story of how...And again, this makes me look like a kind of weirdo but...

   5. HSHarry Stebbings6:03

      (laughs)

   6. WWWill Wu6:04

      ... for the original iPhone, I remember I was so excited about the launch of the original iPhone that I got all my friends together and we all camped out in line at the Cingular Wireless store for 26 straight hours and 10 s- we were first in line at the, at the store to get the original iPhone. And I remember telling Evan that story and he got really excited because he loves the iPhone, so we sort of high-fived across the table. In that moment, he was like, "I have the perfect job for you." And later that day, I got a, uh, a job offer in my email and it said product designer as the, as the job title. And up until that point, I'd always thought about myself as an engineer, as a technologist, and I looked at this job offer, it said product designer and I was like, "What is a product designer?" I literally had no idea (laughs) what a product designer was. Um, so I tried to Google it to understand but I still didn't really grasp it. But I really give... I'm so appreciative to Evan for helping me to see myself as a product person. 'Cause up until that point, I'd just seen myself as an engineer but then he saw what I was doing, he saw what I was building, he saw the way that I thought, my, my passion for products like, products like the iPhone and, um, he helped me sort of see myself in a new light.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings7:21

      I told you this is like a chat, which is why the schedule can be a little

4. 7:24 – 8:20

   Evan Spiegal's Product Mastery

   1. HSHarry Stebbings7:24

      bit misleading, but everyone always says Evan is this kind of product visionary. You've worked with him on product for many years, and I think it was, like, nine years in the end? Yeah, nine years and two months, according to LinkedIn. So nine... What makes him so good at product, Will?

   2. WWWill Wu7:38

      Evan has got an unbelievable product instinct. Just so quick at understanding social interactions between humans, understanding what makes a beautiful design. He's got really strong values when it comes to product. I mean, he's instilled the way that he sees the world, the values that he has into the company, into Snapchat, and he's a really amazing storyteller. He's an amazing communicator. He's... You know, I think part of being good at product is communicating your ideas and your vision, and he is, um, just, uh, you know, I mean, he... I consider him like a lifelong friend of mine and, uh, he, he's just a very inspiring product thinker. He's,

5. 8:20 – 10:06

   Building Discover on Snapchat

   1. WWWill Wu8:20

      he's, he's brilliant.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings8:21

      You worked on, and kind of were central to, many different elements of Snap which are so loved today. Uh, if we start on Discover, what are the biggest lessons you have from being so central to Discover?

   3. WWWill Wu8:32

      I think one of the biggest lessons from Discover was that it's re- (laughs) it's really important to understand the traffic patterns of how people are using your app. Because we had spent more than a year building Discover, designing it painstakingly, and creating the vision for it, or pursuing the vision that we had for it, and then we launched it and it was sort of hidden off in the corner of Snapchat, like, the way that the app is laid out. It was, like, at the very right of Snapchat essentially, and, and we found that, ironically, it was actually pretty hard to discover Discover (laughs) for our users, for our Snapchatters. And... So it was actually... It was, it was a pretty intense launch because, you know, we'd built up all this hype around it and a lot of the media partners that we had were really excited, and then we launch it and then people weren't discovering it. So then what we ended up doing was this... a very small design tweak. We moved Discover one screen to the left, essentially, to be on the same screen as where you see your friends' stories, and that completely changed the fate of Discover. It made it so easy to, again, discover Discover, and it really helped me understand the importance of thinking through the ways that people are using your app or your product today, and thinking through how to gracefully expand your product feature set by wedging additional functionality into the right portions of your user interface, if that makes sense.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings9:58

      No, it, it totally makes sense. I love the challenge of discovering Discover. Um, (laughs) the, the me- the meta problem there is quite hilarious,

6. 10:06 – 12:41

   SnapGaming Platform Insights

   1. HSHarry Stebbings10:06

      to be honest. Um, a- another element that you worked on which is crucial as well is the gaming platform, which I think a lot of people don't actually recognize. I heard about trips to Australia, um, e- we can get into that later, but what are the biggest lessons from working on Snap's gaming platform?

   2. WWWill Wu10:20

      Building that... Snap Games is what it was called, was one of the most valuable experiences I've ever had. I had a lot of lessons from it. I, I got to meet some incredible people. I got to see that the game developer community is very global and vast and diverse and so creative, so I think some of the best product thinkers actually come from game design. Um, I think for me, Snap Games, the biggest lesson was actually a very personal learning, and sort of building the confidence and the courage in myself to overcome challenges, as sort of corny as that sounds. I was in my 20s and I had never before managed a team. I had never before acquired different companies in pursuit of a vision, and I remember actually the launch of Snap Games was quite chaotic and I think one of the most stressful periods of my life where we tried... We, we, we, we ended up launching it with this sort of grand keynote on stage where I was... It was the first ever keynote for Snap and I was talking in front of thousands of really important people and public speaking really terrifies me, and I had never actually before spoken to a, a, a reporter, a journalist, and then... So my first time ever speaking to a reporter was actually speaking to a whole room full of really, uh, prestigious reporters and they were all sort of, like, cross-examining me and it was just... All of this was happening right at the same time while we were simultaneously trying to launch this crazy new product on this, like, unproven technology in partnership with game develop- five different game developers from different continents and time zones around the world. It was just... I, I, I wasn't eating or sleeping very well but it s- it gave me a lot of confidence actually because at the end of the day I, I persevered through it-... and after getting through them, like, wow, I can actually- I can get through a lot more than I really thought. Um, so I think it just gave me more courage to challenge myself and it made me sort of start to realize that impostor syndrome, which is always something that I've felt my entire life and that I still feel to this day, is- it can be a good thing. It always used to terrify me, but now I'm almost, like- I- I- I intentionally put myself into these impostor syndrome, like, uncomfortable positions because it just means that I'm pushing myself to learn and to grow.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings12:35

      I- I totally agree with you. I- I've always felt that having, you know, not been educated in being a venture investor, I think I must be the

7. 12:41 – 15:47

   Product Design: Art vs Science

   1. HSHarry Stebbings12:41

      only one, uh, but, uh, my question to you is, you know, I think often people can feel impostor syndrome when they're thinking about art versus science in- in product in particular. They like to lean on data and science because of a fear of their own conviction or courage, or lack of courage sometimes, as awful as that sounds. And I always think, is product art or science? How would you answer that question? If you were to put a number on it, where would you place them?

   2. WWWill Wu13:05

      I believe that product is equal parts art and equal parts science. In fact, actually, uh, I- I- I'm just sort of beginning to build a new team here at Match Group called ASL, A-S-L, and it has two meanings, but one of the meanings is art and science lab, which reflects my belief that the most innovative and the best products sort of happen at the intersection of artistic diff- disciplines and- and sort of scientific or technology disciplines, and it's sort of like a dance between the two. You need to bring folks from multiple different perspectives and backgrounds and trains of thoughts together to sort of swarm around solving problems for people in order to create really innovative products. As a product leader, I think in addition to making sure that the team has art and science backgrounds, I also think you need to take a sometimes artistic, sort of, intuition and instinct-driven approach and sometimes scientific data-driven approach when you're actually developing a product and growing a product over time. So sometimes you have to lead with your instinct. You know, when you're taking a product from zero to one, you know, no amount of data or market research is gonna tell you exactly whether it's gonna work. You have to take a leap of faith. But then oftentimes when you're iterating beyond that, you can use data to inform your instinct and to inform which direction you wanna go.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings14:28

      Speaking of that intersection and the subconscious that you mentioned there, you've spoken to me before about kind of the human-centered design importance and focus, and I- I didn't really have an idea what you meant, to be honest, Will.

   4. WWWill Wu14:42

      (laughs)

   5. HSHarry Stebbings14:43

      So before we dive in, what is human-centered design?

   6. WWWill Wu14:46

      At its core, human-centric design is just keeping your end users, humans, at the forefront of your mind through every single step of the product development journey, from the very early stages of ideation and need finding and building empathy for your- your customer, all the way through development, prototyping, showing prototypes to users, getting their feedback, iterating, launching, et cetera. It's really just keeping the human at the forefront.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings15:16

      Where does human-centered design most get lost, Will?

   8. WWWill Wu15:19

      I think it can get lost if you, again, sort of lean on data too much. Because oftentimes, you know, a data- a- a- a signal that you're seeing in the data might tell you to do one thing, but if you don't stop and sort of think about how whatever feature change that is might impact your end users, how they feel, or how it might impact the problems that you're solving for them, you can lose sight of your customer at the end of the day and end up going down a path that might have long-term detrimental

8. 15:47 – 18:32

   Human-Centered Design & Apple Watch

   1. WWWill Wu15:47

      consequences.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings15:48

      Are there products that you think of today that do this brilliantly and that do this badly, to bring this to life for us?

   3. WWWill Wu15:54

      The Apple Watch is a fantastic example of a product that I assume was- that was- was- was made with human-centr- with a human-centric design approach. 'Cause if you think about it, I mean, I feel like human-centric design is all about identifying problems that humans are having, your users, your customers are having, and figuring out how to solve them through a blend of art and technology. And the Apple Watch is an incredible product. I mean, look at how ubiquitous it's become over the last few years. And elderly people, for example, it's like a- it's a problem that, in old age, if you have a nasty fall, it can have long-term detrimental health consequences, so it's incredible that the Apple Watch can use its accelerometers and motion sensors and all that kind of stuff to actually detect these falls and notify emergency services. I mean, even looking at the... I don't know if you saw the most recent announcement for the Apple Watch. I think it's called Double Tap, where they saw that there's a problem with using the Apple Watch today. Every Apple Watch as we've known it up until this point, if- y- you can't actually tap on the screen to hit, like, a- a button on the watch if your hand- if you're holding a cup of coffee or if you're, like, walking the dog or something like that with a leash. So they invented this feature through a blend of intuition and instinct and art and science that lets you double tap your fingers on the same hand, you know, where you're wearing the watch, and it actually hits the primary action on the watch. So it's another example of just how this human-centric design is looking at the problems that humans have, your users have, and figuring out how you can solve them.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings17:28

      Okay, who does this shit?

   5. WWWill Wu17:30

      I mean, I don't know if it's fair for me to- to really bash on- on anyone. I think the first thing that comes to mind is, and I should caveat that I- I- I- I actually understand that this is a phenomenal product, but for me as a user, as a consumer, using Concur... Do you know Concur?

   6. HSHarry Stebbings17:46

      Of course I know Concur. It's terrible. Terrible.

   7. WWWill Wu17:50

      (laughs) Okay, I'm glad it's not just me. I mean-

   8. HSHarry Stebbings17:52

      Right.

   9. WWWill Wu17:52

      I- it's just- it's- it's serving a different type of customer, so it's really good for an enterprise. I mean, it's like an enterto- enterprise SaaS product, and they can have a really successful product because they're solving the right needs for an enterprise customer, another company that they're selling to, but...... I don't know if that product was designed from the ground up with the end user in mind.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings18:11

       No, it's like Bill.com. I, I always think with these companies, like, do they have anyone in product? Like, ouch.

   11. WWWill Wu18:18

       (laughs)

   12. HSHarry Stebbings18:18

       Can you trust them? I always ask.

   13. WWWill Wu18:18

       I think it's just a different... It's a, it's like a different product mindset and philosophy. It's like enterprise product is very different from consumer product, which is, you know, where I normally focus my energy, where, you know, I think the human-centric design approach really matters.

   14. HSHarry Stebbings18:31

       So when we

9. 18:32 – 20:15

   Identifying Your Target User

   1. HSHarry Stebbings18:32

      actually say there about the human-centric design approach, when you break it down for me today, if I were to say, "I am a founder listening to you and I want to do it," what is your approach and how can I do it, Will?

   2. WWWill Wu18:44

      Identifying your target user, the people that you want the most to use your product, building empathy for them through whatever means necessary, really. I mean, you can get really scrappy if you're a, you know, an early founder/entrepreneur. You can go talk to people on the street. Um, you can-

   3. HSHarry Stebbings19:01

      So what, what, what questions do you ask to uncover user needs? 'Cause it's hard.

   4. WWWill Wu19:06

      For me, the first thing that comes to mind is, you know, I'm at Match Group, thinking about how to continue to spark online connection around the world, and what's your approach to dating, you know? Which, wh- if you, if you were to try on... Have you tried online dating before? If you were to try online dating for the first time, which apps would you consider? If you've gone through online dating already, like, what are some of the struggles that you had? What are some of the challenges? Tell me your problems. You basically just wanna hear about what problems they have so that you can then... You know, so, so someone might say that, "Oh, getting started with online dating is actually really challenging." There's tons of different apps out there that you can choose from. How do you know how to make a dating profile? It's ju- it's just incredibly challenging. It's, like, a little awkward to figure out how to represent yourself with photos and some text online in front of, you know, potentially millions of strangers in a romantic setting. So just thinking, uh, hearing, listening to their problems, formalizing those problems, writing them down, and then bringing together really smart, creative people from different backgrounds, that art and science background, to really think about how to solve those problems.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings20:14

      Well, you said

10. 20:15 – 23:37

    Simplicity in Product Design

    1. HSHarry Stebbings20:15

       about that kind of creation of profiles. Is simple always better when it comes to product design? You know, I look at kind of creating profiles today, some are simple processes, some are not. Is simple always better in product design?

    2. WWWill Wu20:27

       It's not always better, in my experience, but I do think that when you are creating a novel product that people don't yet understand, something that's truly innovative and new, I do think that simplicity is paramount towards making it easy to use and easy to grok. And I think about the original iPhone, for example. It was very simple. Actually, they, they used desig- u- y- user interface design patterns like skeuomorphic iconography to help ground people's understanding in real, physical analogies. And then over time, iPhones have gotten much more sophisticated. They've added in feature after feature after feature. The reason that that can work is 'cause if you start simple, then you have a core product. If you, if you find... If you're lucky enough to find product-to-market fit and you've got a simple core product that people can easily pick up and understand, and then once you've sort of captured their attention, once you've found that product market fit, then you can take them on this journey over time where you layer in complexity. You can really push the boundaries of what the design language can do in order to introduce new features and new complexity that sol- solves the users' problems in totally new ways.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings21:40

       Can I ask, how do you prevent feature creep? It's so easy over time just to add more, add more, add more, and then you look at the product and it's like, "Oh, that is cumbersome." How do you retain simplicity with time?

    4. WWWill Wu21:53

       I mean, this is really where I think there's a lot of art involved. You have to think through the right level of abstraction with features. You don't, you don't wanna open up an app and see hundreds of toggles and different settings and different switches. It's just overwhelming and confusing and hard to understand. You do wanna make some of those settings and toggles available for a power user, someone who really wants to push your product to its limit. So it's figuring out from a design perspective how, like, what the information architecture should look like, how to tweak the interface to be approachable for a layperson, but to have depth for a more power user, if that makes sense.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings22:41

       I totally get you. How do you strike that balance, though?

    6. WWWill Wu22:44

       Through a lot of iteration, experimentation, coming up with literally hundreds or thousands of different mockups and designs through... I'm a huge fan of rapid prototyping. Like, not just creating interactive Figma mockups that you can click on, but literal prototyping with real software code so that you can just rapidly experiment and feel out using your intuition and your instinct and, you know, do user studies and all that kind of stuff to figure out if it's approachable for a layperson.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings23:17

       I was speaking to, uh, I don't know if I'm saying this right, but Parni before the show.

    8. WWWill Wu23:21

       Parni, yes.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings23:22

       Parni, yeah.

    10. WWWill Wu23:22

        He's amazing.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings23:23

        So I was talking with him before, and he said to me about a time when the team wanted to ship a product when it was like... It was a little bit, nah, you know, a little bit creaky. Um, and you were like, "No. Just no, guys."

    12. WWWill Wu23:34

        (laughs)

    13. HSHarry Stebbings23:34

        "Not gonna happen." Um, can you talk

11. 23:37 – 25:30

    Execution Speed & Product Reviews

    1. HSHarry Stebbings23:37

       to me, how do you think about, like, speed of execution, and is good today better than perfect tomorrow?

    2. WWWill Wu23:45

       Yeah. I mean, I, I am... I can be sometimes known to be a stickler for design details. And, and I guess where that comes from is when you're working with a product team in pursuit of a vision, you wanna put a product out there that... Or at least in my experience, you wanna put a product out there that you can be really proud of. And I think first impressions-... really matter, whether it's the first impression for your target customer or for reporters out there, whoever it is. I've always felt that when you're launching something brand new, it can't be perfect. Perfection is, i- i- i- it just takes forever and, you know, y- you might not actually... If you try to build perfection and you launch it after taking years, then you might find out that it actually isn't solving a real user need, and then you might have to start all over. But you at least should launch something that you're really proud of, that reflects... it's emblematic of the vision that you're trying to achieve.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings24:40

       Does that go against rapid prototyping, if you think about something you're really proud of? Rapid prototype's like, hey, quick and dirty, does this work, does this work? Do you like it here, do you like it here? Do they not go against each other?

    4. WWWill Wu24:51

       I actually think that rapid prototyping is a critical tool for any product person to accelerate the path towards putting something out onto the market that they're proud of. Because it basically allows really rapid iteration and guidance by your intuition and instinct within your own internal team, within the people who all share a vision of what you're trying to achieve. And it also allows you to do, sort of, informal user testing. You just hand your rapid prototype, you hand your phone to a friend or a target customer and see what they think. Um, so I think it's- it's actually quite complementary to the idea of- of getting a product

12. 25:30 – 28:52

    Inspiring Creativity in Teams

    1. WWWill Wu25:30

       that you're proud of out there.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings25:31

       Okay. So we see what they think, and then we have a product review. And again, I'm not in the product world and I want... and a lot of CEOs aren't, and so I want this to be, like, for lessons for them. When we think about product reviews, how do you do them? What makes a good versus a great one?

    3. WWWill Wu25:48

       I have a few different types of reviews and I don't know if you, sort of, bucket this under a product review, but I think the- the environment for a brainstorm is also e- extremely important. Um, but for a product review, I mean, I- I-

    4. HSHarry Stebbings26:04

       So w- w- let- let- let's start there then. Brainstorm. Are- are we in-person or remote? Do we have a whiteboard? Do we have a Miro board?

    5. WWWill Wu26:11

       I thi... A Miro board? I don't even know what that is. That sounds amazing.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings26:15

       Do you know Miro, uh, the collaboration tool?

    7. WWWill Wu26:18

       Oh, really? No, I haven't seen that.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings26:20

       Yeah.

    9. WWWill Wu26:20

       Or maybe I have, but I haven't seen the name.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings26:21

        It's like for designers and product people to design around.

    11. WWWill Wu26:25

        Oh, gotcha. All right. You learn something new every day. Love it. I'll have to check that out. I guess I'm old-fashioned, I like a whiteboard. I- I- I- I think that when it comes to creative brainstorming and design brainstorming, being in person is just of paramount importance. I think your physical setup, actually, is extremely important. I like to try to create a relaxed atmosphere where you're sort of on a couch, uh, where you can be casual and conversational, and I like to create a safe space where you sort of have psychological safety to throw out some crazy ideas. Because I've often found that wacky ideas that are sort of almost like half-jokes can actually have a really important edge to them that can, at the end of the day, turn into a really amazing idea, product, feature.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings27:11

        Do you cap it at a certain number of people? How do you determine who to invite? I'm just intrigued to really get to grips with kind of the bare bones.

    13. WWWill Wu27:19

        It's actually really important to have a small group of people because otherwise you just get into these situations where there's too many cooks in a kitchen and there's too many people that can, sort of, shoot down ideas, which I think is the worst thing when it comes to creativity. I mean, it can just... Y- y- shooting down ideas is something that I just really try to avoid in the sort of, like, product culture that I create because any idea can have merit if you look at it under a certain lens. But yeah, I try to cap it to maybe, like, five people max. I mean, that's like a rough rule of thumb but I think it's really important. It's like people that you trust, that you know the way their minds work, you're all coming at a problem from a different perspective. Maybe someone has... maybe someone's formally trained in product design or maybe someone is an engineer, and you can think about it from those different lenses.

    14. HSHarry Stebbings28:04

        Do you set an agenda beforehand?

    15. WWWill Wu28:06

        I think I proba... I have. I have in the past. I... I think setting an agenda can be important, but sometimes if you add too much structure it can stifle creativity. I- I kind of... It's like this constant tension or this, like, struggle that I face internally where I think some of the most creative ideas can arise from chaotic environments, but you also have to, like, have some level of structure to sort of keep people on task, if that makes sense.

    16. HSHarry Stebbings28:31

        How do you bring chaos to environments? Like, I- I'm a- I'm a rebel, rule breaker. It's why, again, never went to college. M- My mother still thinks I'm, you know, dealing something on the internet.

    17. WWWill Wu28:41

        (laughs)

    18. HSHarry Stebbings28:41

        Uh, when I rock up with Chanel and she still doesn't know what I do. The...

    19. WWWill Wu28:45

        (laughs)

    20. HSHarry Stebbings28:45

        The fund helps, I have to admit now.

    21. WWWill Wu28:47

        Oh, sure. (laughs)

    22. HSHarry Stebbings28:48

        She says to everyone that I'm a hedge fund manager, so you know.

    23. WWWill Wu28:50

        Oh.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings28:50

        Not quite, Mum, but

13. 28:52 – 32:07

    Product Team Culture & Hiring

    1. HSHarry Stebbings28:52

       you know, we're there.

    2. WWWill Wu28:52

       Close enough. Well...

    3. HSHarry Stebbings28:53

       Yeah. Uh, but like how do you bring chaos? How do you inspire creativity? How are you like, "Let's actually fucking think outside the box here?"

    4. WWWill Wu29:00

       Two things come to mind for me. I think one, just bringing together people from diverse backgrounds and perspectives. I just can't underscore enough how important that is, so that you have people thinking about the same problem, that same human need that you're trying to solve from a totally different perspective. Like I said, whether it's engineering or someone who's trained in fine art or graphic design or fashion design or architecture or whatever it is, like bringing these different perspectives together can help you analyze a problem in a different way. And the other thing that I think is really important is inspiration. Traveling around the world and seeing your target customer, for example, in the flesh and observing the way that they're interacting with the world and understanding their environments in a really nuanced way. I think that... I think getting the right sort of creative inspiration is paramount towards coming up... towards generating that chaos and coming up with the right ideas.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings30:00

       You know what's really hard though, Will? It's really hard when you're the product leader and you've got revenue generation today and innovation for tomorrow.How do you think about balancing investing in what makes money today and making sure that machine hums, but also being sure that you have an eye on generative AI and new ways of creating profiles that's seamless and easy and y- you don't need to do anything, or whatever that may be. How do you balance the two, revenue generation and eye to the future?

    6. WWWill Wu30:30

       I mean, you need both. Y- like, y- y- you just need both because obviously you need revenue to support the business, but you also need to be innovating and, and pushing your product forward to stay ahead of the competition. I have found that the best approach, or at least what's worked in my experience, is having two separate teams dedicated towards each of those two independent goals. So, one team dedicated towards revenue generation, another team generated towards innovation. Because oftentimes, there's a really strong tension between those two when you're building a product. You might have to deteriorate your revenues, you know, with a new feature, in order to find, in order to experiment with some really innovative new idea. And if it's the same team making those decisions, that conflict of incentives can be paralyzing for development, if that makes sense.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings31:25

       It totally does. Do they need to work together, those separate teams, or are they quite clearly distinct and different?

    8. WWWill Wu31:31

       They definitely have to work together. So, I think that, I mean, that's sort of, like, part of the role of a product leader, is to be able to properly balance between the needs of those two teams. It's creating the right communication pathways, the right processes for those teams to collaborate with each other and share notes and ideas, think about how to build a culture of openness and information sharing, and, and one where people from those two different teams can actually get to know each other personally so they can build trust with each other as humans, so that they're not just thinking about, you know, the sort of, like, opposing ideas

14. 32:07 – 33:34

    Multiplayer Gaming: Crash Club

    1. WWWill Wu32:07

       and directions that they have.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings32:08

       What are the mistakes that product teams get when it comes to culture? How does product culture go bad?

    3. WWWill Wu32:14

       I like to create a culture where everyone is growth-minded, where everyone practices humility, empathy, and listening to one another. But what I personally don't like is when you've got folks that are very egocentric, really ego-driven, people who think that they know everything, because that can be poisonous to your team culture. It can stifle the voices of other people in the room, and it can plant these seeds in the team that, over time, you know, can tarnish, uh, you know, the, the rest of what you're doing. Uh, I think a lot about team culture and how every single person is like a, a seed in your team, and those seeds, over time, blossom into trees. And I guess your team is like a, a field of trees. But if you've got the wrong people on the team, it can be like a... I don't know what the right analogy is here. It could be like a, like a parasite or something like that, that can grow over time. So, you have to get rid of it really quickly.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings33:13

       What a wonderful floral analogy, and I'm glad you're, you're, you're taking on Attenborough for the, uh, na- natural, uh, analogy.

    5. WWWill Wu33:21

       (laughs) If that doesn't work out, then who knows?

    6. HSHarry Stebbings33:23

       Y- y- you know what? You d- you need to change the voice a little bit. He's got the salt

    7. NANarrator33:26

       (laughs) Yeah.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings33:26

       ... and intermedia. Uh, y- i- I totally agree with you on the importance of that culture, but that comes down to you and your hiring, actually, and getting the

15. 33:34 – 34:27

    Traits of a Top Product Designer

    1. HSHarry Stebbings33:34

       right people on board. It is really hard to hire great product people. You've done it at Snap very well. You're doing it again at Match now very well. My question to you is, first off, before we talk about the people, how do you structure hiring for product? What does that process look like? Again, I'm an angel investment of yours. Just, I've never done it before. How do I hire product people?

    2. WWWill Wu33:56

       I specifically look at products that people have designed or built in the past. So, I think that someone's actual work, the products that they've created, or at least that they've imagined, speaks volumes, more than you can possibly extract out of, like, a, you know, a few interviews. I think it speaks volumes to the way that they think, the way that they communicate their ideas.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings34:21

       What do you wanna see in the products that they've built?

    4. WWWill Wu34:23

       I think, I guess it depends on the product. But, you know, I think of... Actually, okay,

16. 34:27 – 36:46

    AI's Impact on Product Design

    1. WWWill Wu34:27

       so when I was first building Snap Games, actually, this goes back to the Australia comment that, um, that you made earlier. I had this kind of crazy vision, vision of, uh, creating these multiplayer games in Snapchat that were fun and vibrant and colorful and featured your, your Bitmojis, so you could play as your Bitmoji in Snapchat with your friends. Snap didn't have game development expertise already within the company. So, I started looking for game studios out there in the world that we could potentially acquire through M&A to sort of bring that expertise into the company. And I found a game that just really spoke to me. It was multiplayer, real-time multiplayer. It was super fun and colorful. I remember, like, the music had the right energy that I was looking for, and then everything just-

    2. HSHarry Stebbings35:17

       Was this Fruit, or was this Fruit Ninja? You know, ninja game?

    3. WWWill Wu35:18

       It was the same creators, actually. The, the, the game was actually called Crash Club. I don't think it's actually on the App Store anymore, but... And, like, the, the user interface of the game menus was like this 3D box that you would, like, swipe and tap on, and, like, the box would spin around in 3D. It was a very sort of, like, novel approach at thinking about UI interaction design. And before I had even met the developers behind the game, I was like, "This is the game studio that we need to acquire." So, then actually, I, I, I, you know, I found a way to get connected to them, and we had an intro call. In that intro call, all I was looking for, like, I, I was, I was already sold on their product abilities, on their game-creating abilities, but all I was really looking for was whether it was a good culture fit, whether we got along, whether they had a, you know, personalities that I thought that I would like to work with over time. And literally (laughs) , like, we had one call. They were in Australia, I was in LA. I confirmed my suspicion, and I immediately flew over to them, like, the next day, to Brisbane, Australia, to pitch them on-... essentially, Snap buying their game studio. And we had- we made it happen incredibly quickly. So, it depends what product- getting back to your question, it depends what product you're trying to build. But I think if you have a certain vision in mind for the kind of product that you want to create, then you'll see the right person. You'll know it when you see it, when you see what they've done in the past.

17. 36:46 – 51:59

    Keeping Match Relevant in Dating

    1. WWWill Wu36:46

    2. HSHarry Stebbings36:46

       Can I ask, what are the single best qualities you look for in a product designer? You mentioned now the design of, you know, the 3D shapes and spinning. What are the best qualities of those product designers?

    3. WWWill Wu36:57

       Whether it's a designer or an engineer or a product manager, I'm looking for people who are very growth-minded. I mean, I'm- you know, I- I think just inherently when you're trying to push the envelope with product innovation-

    4. HSHarry Stebbings37:10

       What does that mean, like, they're very growth-minded? Sorry, I'm pushing you on that.

    5. WWWill Wu37:13

       Like, someone who is open to change and adaptation and learning. Someone who has the innate intellectual curiosity to understand the way the world works or to improve their abilities.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings37:28

       Okay. How do you test that in an interview?

    7. WWWill Wu37:30

       Actually, when I hire anyone, I'm always asking what their long-term career ambitions are so I can understand how much thought they've put into what their end state, what their end game really looks like. And I want to make sure that that end game is at least something that I can support and sort of take them a- you know, hope- hopefully help to push them along that journey over time.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings37:52

       What do you not want to hear in that 10-year plan? Like, what would be like a, "Oh, I don't want that"?

    9. WWWill Wu37:57

       I actually- I- I believe in striking work/life balance. But I think at the end of the day, I'm looking for someone who's just really passionate about their craft and whatever it is that they're doing 'cause I think that passion is what drives people to work beyond nine-to-five. It's like, you have to understand people's motivation. It's like, why are they interviewing with you? What are th- what are their career ambitions? What are they looking for?

    10. HSHarry Stebbings38:17

        What do you think product people care about today? I think people's shift has been very real. People care less about money than ever before. Mission, nah. They say they do more because they think it's more moral, but they actually do care about the work/life balance, I find, much more than anything.

    11. WWWill Wu38:33

        I mean, I do think that the pandemic really helped people to realize that maybe you don't need to be in the office five days a week or- or- or- or- or maybe even worse, seven days a week. I think having some level of flexibility is conducive of having a little bit better work/life balance. And maybe even being better- being a better teammate, being a better employee because you can bring your full self to work under the right circumstances. I don't know if people aren't looking for money. I mean, this is one of the things that concerns me actually, about product management as a discipline today. I feel like it's this sexy, trendy job in tech that has an allure because, you know, it's- it's known to s- sometimes be high-paying. And I guess it's like, I- I try to weed out people who might only be interested in product management because of reasons like that.

    12. HSHarry Stebbings39:31

        Like cash. (laughs)

    13. WWWill Wu39:32

        (laughs) yeah. I mean-

    14. HSHarry Stebbings39:34

        I- I-

    15. WWWill Wu39:34

        ... obviously at the end of the day, like-

    16. HSHarry Stebbings39:35

        ... d- dude, you're speaking to a venture investor.

    17. WWWill Wu39:37

        (laughs)

    18. HSHarry Stebbings39:37

        Like, we- mine's a sexier job, I think, than PMing, and we get paid... I- I don't know actually. Like, PMs get paid pretty well, I think, right?

    19. WWWill Wu39:45

        They do. At least, you know, in certain companies where it's, um, a highly valued function.

    20. HSHarry Stebbings39:51

        I mean, it is and it's a cool thing. You're CEO of the product. Like, that's kind of how most people describe-

    21. WWWill Wu39:56

        Yeah.

    22. HSHarry Stebbings39:56

        ... it, and it's kinda cool. Can I ask, on- on, like, case studies in the interview process, do you do case studies? If so, how do you think about doing them?

    23. WWWill Wu40:04

        I don't, personally. I mean, I've always just felt that it's a little bit too artificial and forced and it's, like, kinda like- I mean, I was never a- I think of a case study almost like a standardized test. You know the classic brain teasers that some of these big te- big tech companies- I don't know if they still do it, but at least, you know, when I was going through college and sort of studying for my internship interviews and all that kinda stuff, it was all about these brain teasers. I don't know. It's like a certain type of test of someone's thinking. But if they're not good at brain teasers, they can still be good at a lot of other things. So I don't really take a very structured approach when it comes to my interviews with case studies or brain teaser- brain teasers or anything like that.

    24. HSHarry Stebbings40:45

        Do you know pretty quickly when someone's good, do you think?

    25. WWWill Wu40:49

        I do. I think I do. I would like to think so. And actually, one of the key- I mean, honestly, I look at what they've done, I look at what they've built. Even if they're really early in car- in their career, looking at concepts that they've created and asking them about those concepts. Asking them, oh, like, "Why did you put this button here?" Or, "Why did you use this specific copy, this specific string of text in the user interface here?" To get an understanding of how they think, to get an understanding of how passionate they are about product.

    26. HSHarry Stebbings41:19

        What have been your biggest hiring mistakes? There's, like, two for me. One is when they come from a great brand and I'm like, "They came from, you know, Jack's product team at Snap," obviously not less great, "they must be amazing." And they're like, "Nah, not really." Um, or, like, I go, "Amazing br- they're so innovative, they're so innovative," and then they're just, like, not a good culture fit and I didn't take that into account. What have been your biggest mistakes product- like, product hiring-wise?

    27. WWWill Wu41:44

        For me personally, I mean, I- I think that I can get overly invested in people. I can give people a lot of room to fail because I like to see the best in people, I guess. I- I'm like a glass half full kinda guy. And my friends always actually give me a hard time about this because I tend to like everyone. Even people who are- who- who most people severely dislike, I- I- I love them because I just, like, see them for who they are and I think they bring something special to the world. But I think that does (laughs) make it so that sometimes I give people a long leash and, you know, I may need to sort of, like, read the signs from the team earlier to figure out that maybe they aren't a great culture fit or maybe they're just in this for the money and not that passionate about our mission.

    28. HSHarry Stebbings42:32

        Is it wrong to be just in it for the money? I oscillate on this one. Like, I- I know founders that have created, like, decacorns and they're like, they're just there for the cash.I don't g- I mean, does that matter? Does it matter, I guess to product people? Does is matter if like, "Yeah, I'm, I'm here for the money that you're paying me, but I'm really, really good at what I do"?

    29. WWWill Wu42:49

        I think it matters. I do not like the idea of like a paid mercenary who is just in this for the money because, you know, product can be a high earning job. I think that the most profound and innovative products come from a deep passion for creating something that can have an impact. And like, I mean-

    30. HSHarry Stebbings43:12

        Now, do you-
18. 51:59 – 57:49

    Quick-Fire Round

    1. HSHarry Stebbings51:59

       me, when do you listen to users and when do you ignore them and go, "You know what? Product roadmap. We're gonna stick to what we know"?

    2. WWWill Wu52:05

       I think listening to users is normally extremely important, though I think the one exception might be when something that users are asking for conflicts with one of your core product values. But then I, I still think you, you don't, you don't, like, ignore them. But I think it, it's just about, like, listening and understanding what they want and figuring out how to maybe solve that problem that they're having in a way that's adherent to your values.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings52:28

       What's your work-from-home setup? I was told that you have some special work-from-home setup. Hit me. Wisdom.

    4. WWWill Wu52:34

       (laughs) .

    5. HSHarry Stebbings52:35

       Huh?

    6. WWWill Wu52:36

       I did go a little crazy about this over the pandemic. Um, I've got an Apple Pro Display XDR. I've got, I mean, I've iterated on a few cameras, but at this point I've got something called an Insta360 Link, which is just an incredible webcam on a gimbal. It's an, it's amazing. I've got a custom keyboard. I'm a, I'm a huge nerd. I mean, you know, think about me growing up on IRC. I've got a, what's called a Leopold FC660C keyboard with Japanese Topre switches in a custom housing made by someone named Ryan Norbauer, who, who's, like, an artisan keyboard case maker in Los Angeles. What else? Oh, I've got a Logitech MX Master 3 mouse. I swear by that mouse. Um, I don't know. I could go, I could, I could t- do, like, an entire podcast on my work-from-home setup (laughs) .

    7. HSHarry Stebbings53:25

       No, you're a totally normal guy. Don't worry, Will.

    8. WWWill Wu53:27

       Totally normal.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings53:27

       Y- you, you ju- you just, you know, uh, yeah, g- destroyed all street cred (laughs) .

    10. WWWill Wu53:32

        (laughs) . Oops. Yep.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings53:34

        Can I ask, what would you say is the biggest mistake founders make when hiring product teams?

    12. WWWill Wu53:38

        Not getting rid of poor culture fits fast enough.

    13. HSHarry Stebbings53:43

        Hmm. What's the b- first sign?

    14. WWWill Wu53:45

        I think it can be a lot of different signs. But it's like, you see the way that they're treating another coworker. If they're not kind, if they've got an ego and they think that they know it all. Um, I think these are the things that can be deteriorating to your culture that you're trying to build over time.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings54:01

        What one piece of advice would you give to a product leader starting a new role first thing tomorrow?

    16. WWWill Wu54:06

        Just get reps in building products. No matter what it is, just build anything, even if it's a personal project on the side, because I think getting those reps in is really important. Embrace imposter syndrome. Imposter syndrome is a good thing, because it means you're growing.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings54:21

        What's the watch collection (laughs) ?

    18. WWWill Wu54:24

        (laughs) . I wanna hear about your watch collection now. Um, I have been obsessed with watches since I was, like, a little kid. Literally. I mean, I've got, like, a drawer full of all of the watches I've ever owned in my life. My old G-Shock, my NikeWatch, Swatches growing up. More recently, I've been exploring all different types of brands. And I just love watches. It's like th- like this, like, amazing blend of art and science and technology. I love how it's, like, a form of self-expression. I love how they're sort of anachronistic nowadays. You know, at a time where we're just surrounded by digital computers, having a mechanical watch that's got this-... heartbeat of its own, that sort of like, as long as, like, you're wearing it, its heartbeat is, like, in unison, beating with your heartbeat. I just think it's incredible.

    19. HSHarry Stebbings55:10

        I totally agree with you. Espe-cially in terms of the heartbeat. Um, I, I also think in terms of marketing, like, you know, the Patek marketing of, you know, being for generations-

    20. WWWill Wu55:20

        Absolutely.

    21. HSHarry Stebbings55:20

        ... I think is fascinating.

    22. WWWill Wu55:22

        Absolutely.

    23. HSHarry Stebbings55:22

        And actually, how different, how different, uh, social capital accrues to the different styles.

    24. WWWill Wu55:27

        Yes.

    25. HSHarry Stebbings55:27

        And, like, what you wear is who you are, in some respects. Do you know what I mean?

    26. WWWill Wu55:31

        I 100% know what you mean.

    27. HSHarry Stebbings55:34

        Yeah.

    28. WWWill Wu55:34

        Every single day, I look at my watches and I'm like, "Who do I want to be today?" It was, it's an incredible form of self-expression. And I also, like, to your point, I mean, I'm a big fan, I, I guess I'm a sentimental guy, but I love how you can get a watch to celebrate or commemorate a certain milestone in life. And it's like, for the rest of your life, whenever you wear that watch, you think about, you get nostalgic about that milestone. I just think it's really important what watches can symbolize.

    29. HSHarry Stebbings56:00

        Yeah. I mean, we could change it to a, a Patek is not for life, it's for your birthday. (laughs)

    30. WWWill Wu56:05

        (laughs) That'd be amazing.

Episode duration: 57:49