Zach Lawryk: The Ultimate Guide to Sales Engineering | E980

1. 0:00 – 0:33

   Intro

   1. ZLZach Lawryk0:00

      ... what has changed and, uh, what is sort of broken about most sales organizations today is they're still trying to sell like they're in control of that process, when the truth is they're not. The buyer is in control of the process, and it's more about buyer enablement than it's about selling anymore.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings0:14

      Zach, I have heard many great things from Maggie, wonderful, wonderful person. But thank you so much for joining me today first.

   3. ZLZach Lawryk0:21

      Yeah. Well, I'm happy to be here, humbled to be included, and, uh, it's an honor.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings0:26

      Not at all. This is a very special 20 Sales episode, and I wanna start with a little bit of context. So tell me, how did you make your way into the world of sales,

2. 0:33 – 2:29

   Who is Zach Lawryk?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings0:33

      how did you make your way into the world of solutions engineering, and most recently, you know, end up at the wonder that is Rippling?

   2. ZLZach Lawryk0:39

      Sure. So long story short, I started, uh, university with the idea that, uh, I was gonna complete a computer science degree, uh, because it was around, it was 1999, right before the bubble burst, and, uh, that was the best way or the best path to making great money. Halfway through it, I realized I didn't wanna spend all my time in a lab, because that was most of the, you know, initial coursework for the computer science degree. I pivoted and said, "I'm gonna be a lawyer." So I did political science instead, but it never got away from technology, and I always loved the intersection of business and technology. And frankly, I sort of stumbled into technology sales. I started a company in college. I'd had no idea what I was doing but was sort of on, like, the business and technology side. I worked for a company that got me to San Francisco. I luckily got a job at Salesforce. I knew nothing about the company, knew nothing about the job, was just happy to get paid a little bit more than what I was paid previously. And, uh, again, long story short, I'm in a training room. I started my job at Salesforce. I was, like, a premier support person basically, so I had a set of accounts. I was the Salesforce expert, helped them set up their Salesforce instance and manage it. On one h- one side of the room, there were the technical support people, like myself. On the other side of the room, their sales engineers. The sales engineer side of the room was having a lot more fun than I was, and I looked across the room, and I said, "I wonder what that job is about? It looks like they're having a lot more fun than we are. We're taking this so seriously." Uh, and lo and behold, it's true. It was a much more fun and, uh, and rewarding career, and I never looked back. And so that was, like, around 2006. I, I interviewed for my first SE job. I didn't get it the first time. I demoed. They said, "Uh, y- n- you're gonna need to do that again. That was pretty bad." The second time around, they said, "That was okay. Come on aboard." And, uh, I've never been more excited about getting a job.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings2:27

      Can I just define some nomenclature for

3. 2:29 – 3:56

   Sales Engineers vs Sales Consultants

   1. HSHarry Stebbings2:29

      anyone that doesn't know?

   2. ZLZach Lawryk2:30

      Sure.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings2:30

      How does a sales engineer differ from a sales rep?

   4. ZLZach Lawryk2:33

      So the sales engineer or solutions consultant or pre-sales consultant, there are a lot of different words these days, I think solution consultant is, is the proper term, uh, as of late, we are a product expert, an expert in the solutions that tie to business value to help support the sales rep in the execution of their quota.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings2:52

      Got you. That was-

   6. ZLZach Lawryk2:53

      Yeah.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings2:53

      ... fantastically succinct. My word, you must have been asked that before. Uh-

   8. ZLZach Lawryk2:57

      (laughs)

   9. HSHarry Stebbings2:57

      ... but I, I, I, I want to ask you then, you spent time at obviously Salesforce, you mentioned that, but also Slack where you worked with many incredible people, Maggie being one of them.

   10. ZLZach Lawryk3:05

       Uh-huh.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings3:05

       Incredibly tough, uh, question, but if you were to take away, a single biggest takeaway from each of those experiences that really impacted your mindset, what would be one from each?

   12. ZLZach Lawryk3:16

       You know, I thought about this. I, I think, uh, you know, the one common denominator across all of my experiences, uh, i- is the quality of people. And I would say also, you know, while I worked at some really successful companies, there's some companies that didn't love, live up to expectations, and I've learned just as much from those experiences as I did from Slack, Salesforce, and Box, et cetera. So, um, you know, I would say the common denominator is I've always followed great people, and, uh, that is a good proxy for understanding whether or not the company is going to be successful and is on the right trajectory is the quality of people you're surrounded with, and that's a common theme that I've solved, I've followed throughout my career.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings3:53

       Did you know they were super high quality straightaway?

4. 3:56 – 5:01

   Tips for Hiring Sales

   1. HSHarry Stebbings3:56

      One of the biggest mistakes I make in hiring, I fall for people who are good at selling themselves, and then they're not actually that high quality, and then-

   2. ZLZach Lawryk4:02

      Uh-huh.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings4:02

      ... actually some people are quieter, but really high quality, and I miss them often.

   4. ZLZach Lawryk4:07

      Yeah. Uh, that's, that's a really hard thing to do, and I think, like, it takes, you know, years of experience being around a lot of different people, making some good hires, making some bad hires. Um, but, you know, I think about, like, the advice that I give to folks earlier in their career is to go someplace where you're surrounded by people that are smarter than you, but also people whom with you think you can collaborate effectively, um, because the people that you work with are really what makes, make every single day tolerable. Um, it's all about the people. It doesn't matter how fast the company is growing, how great their technology is, how big their total addressable market. If you don't feel like you're learning from the people that you're surrounded with, then you're in the wrong spot.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings4:46

      Now, I, I want to kind of dig deeper on the sales industry itself first. We're gonna-

   6. ZLZach Lawryk4:49

      Okay.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings4:49

      ... kinda deconstruct different parts. Um, but if we start on the sales industry itself, I, I spoke to Maggie before, and she told me that I should ask this one as a starting point.

   8. ZLZach Lawryk4:58

      Sure.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings4:59

      What is broken about sales

5. 5:01 – 7:55

   What is broken in Sales today?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings5:01

      today, Zach?

   2. ZLZach Lawryk5:02

      Broadly speaking, most technology sales organizations are selling the same way they were 20 years ago.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings5:08

      Hmm.

   4. ZLZach Lawryk5:09

      We've gotta do some deep discovery with you. Uh, we're controlling access to resources. We're controlling the sales process. And it's a very, like, seller-centric approach, which I think is totally broken. The way things have shifted, and this began before COVID but was accelerated with COVID in the fact that we're all staring at 16 different screens on a daily basis, uh, is that attention spans have dwindled. And I don't know, have you ever purchased software before?

   5. HSHarry Stebbings5:35

      M- many times.

   6. ZLZach Lawryk5:37

      Yeah. You know, it's, and it's, it's not an easy experience, and it's not very fun. And, you know, you can imagine when somebody is trying to withhold information from you, it's also, it makes that experience much, far worse. Um, so I think what has changed and, uh, what is sort of broken about most sales organizations today is they're tr- still trying to sell like they're in control of that process, um, when the truth is they're not. The buyer is in control of the process, and it's more about buyer enablement than it's about selling anymore.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings6:03

      Can I ask, is that really the case still when you see the rise of PLG? When you see the, "Hey, have a play," it is the consumer's option to go deeper. It is the consumer's option to buy more and engage with the enterprise team. Is that still the case, that it's so seller-centric?

   8. ZLZach Lawryk6:18

      I would say, you know, I think PLG is a really fancy word these days, and there are a lot of people that kind of like use that term loosely. But at the end of the day, it's a great way to get exposure to a product in a self-service fashion.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings6:30

      Mm-hmm.

   10. ZLZach Lawryk6:31

       But you, people still want to talk to people.

   11. HSHarry Stebbings6:33

       Mm-hmm.

   12. ZLZach Lawryk6:33

       Um, but they wanna talk to people on their terms. So, it is seller-centric in the sense that, you know, the seller needs to be, um, let's, let's put it a different way.

   13. HSHarry Stebbings6:43

       Uh-

   14. ZLZach Lawryk6:43

       Have you heard of the term sense-making?

   15. HSHarry Stebbings6:45

       No.

   16. ZLZach Lawryk6:46

       Like, so Forrester has this concept of sense-making. Um, it's a term they use as it applies to modern complex selling, and I really like it because it's, what it's really about is, uh, your job is not to sell something to somebody. Your job is to help your buyer make sense of a really increasingly complex world.

   17. HSHarry Stebbings7:04

       Mm-hmm.

   18. ZLZach Lawryk7:04

       And that's what I think selling is all about. It is seller-centric in the sense that you're addressing the seller's needs, and you're considering what they need and what they're trying to accomplish. But they still need your help and guidance to make sure they're making the right decision and making sense of all this information that's out there, uh, especially with the acceleration of, uh, all the digital channels and the reduction of attention spans. Um, it's a really difficult world to buy things in, and it's really difficult, as you can imagine, as you've purchased software in the past, it's not your full-time job. It's nobody's full-time job to purchase software unless you're dealing with procurement, which is a whole different world unto itself.

   19. HSHarry Stebbings7:38

       (laughs)

   20. ZLZach Lawryk7:38

       But these are people that are trying to like run a business and accomplish something from a business perspective. They need help making sense of information to help, to ensure that what you're selling is gonna help them accomplish their goal.

   21. HSHarry Stebbings7:48

       Zach, is outbound dead? 'Cause in terms of sense-making, you have to get them through a certain stage of the funnel to get to sense-making.

6. 7:55 – 9:09

   Is outbound dead?

   1. HSHarry Stebbings7:56

   2. ZLZach Lawryk7:56

      Yeah.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings7:56

      Is traditional outbound dead, do you think?

   4. ZLZach Lawryk7:58

      Well, I s- I, I do think it's amazing that we still use email to try to capture people's attention, and how many LinkedIn messages I get with zero to little detail about a service that somebody is trying to provide or offer to me, and it's just, it boggles my mind. And I'm definitely not the kinda person to call those people out on LinkedIn, 'cause I think that's, everybody's just trying to do a job, and it's a really hard job. I don't think outbound is dead. I think outbound has just had fundamentally changed in terms of the methods that you need to use to engage prospects, and you have to take like a, a, a multichannel approach to that. You can... And it's as simple as, or can be as simple as, you know, creating different forms of content to capture people's attention in the way that they consume information today.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings8:38

      (laughs)

   6. ZLZach Lawryk8:39

      Um, I've kind of thought about this in the pa- It's kind of like a, a TikTok-style approach to, uh, to selling. Like, uh, you know, you and I, you know, we're gonna get off this podcast or whenever you take a break, you're probably gonna look at your phone and consume about 16 different pieces of content and articles and probably read half of those articles. Like, we don't have time to consume long form content in the way that we did. But we're selling as if people have time to read these elaborate emails and pore through our website. We've gotta capture their attention where they are and the way their brain processes information.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings9:08

      What, what I think

7. 9:09 – 11:28

   The Blurring of Sales & Marketing

   1. HSHarry Stebbings9:09

      to you straight away that when you say that though, is the blurring lines between sales and marketing. I see marketing-

   2. ZLZach Lawryk9:14

      Yeah.

   3. HSHarry Stebbings9:14

      ... now eating up so much more of the sales funnel, where bluntly the prospect knows that they wanna buy Rippling very quickly in the process because they've been sold the content, the story, the vision, before they've ever engaged with a rep. Do you agree with me in terms of this blurring of sales and marketing, and how do we see the future of sales as a result of that complete blurring actually?

   4. ZLZach Lawryk9:36

      Yeah. No, that's a really good point, and that's where I see, especially in my world where the solutions engineering function was predominantly like a, a really guarded function or resource, where you couldn't even talk to somebody on my team 10 years ago unless you've gone through like an hour discovery call-

   5. HSHarry Stebbings9:52

      Mm-hmm.

   6. ZLZach Lawryk9:52

      ... and you've been well qualified. Uh, we're starting to encroach earlier in the process, and that's okay. Like, we want our team to develop content that will be consumed earlier in the process. So we're creating like things like short form videos and demo vignettes, um, and slides that are easier to consume in new formats in a way that helps the customer educate themselves earlier in that process. So by the time they get to us, we're very well aligned on what they're trying to do, what they're trying to accomplish. Uh, it makes our jobs easier, more precise, and more valuable, and it makes the buying experience much more, uh, enjoyable as well and effective.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings10:28

      Is there really a solution to opening up you and your colleagues though earlier in the process? Because bluntly, you are a much more valuable resource that is constrained in terms of availability. Y- As, uh, if I'm your CEO, I couldn't put you front and center or much more available because we don't have the resources or bandwidth.

   8. ZLZach Lawryk10:49

      Yeah, and that's where, especially now, we have to think about scale, and, uh, we think about, like, what we do on a weekly basis, how we're engaging with customers, and how we might, uh, productize some of those engagements in a way that can be scaled earlier in the process. So it's not us physically getting on a call with a customer earlier. It's us creating content and messaging and solution material that can be de-leveraged earlier in a sales process. And we still get the benefit of a sales engineer earlier, and it feels more tailored and targeted, and it is, it's for the benefit of the customer, but we don't have to get involved directly, and we do it at scale.

   9. HSHarry Stebbings11:25

      You mentioned the word scale there a couple of times. You've worked

8. 11:28 – 14:27

   Why Technical Founders Make PMF Hard

   1. HSHarry Stebbings11:28

      with and mentored many early stage tech companies and startups. In terms of sales and product market fit, you said before to me that in sales and product market fit, it isn't as hard as many technical founders make it. Naturally, I was incredibly inquisitive, but also going, "Tell me more." Uh, so tell me more, Zach. Why isn't it as hard as many technical founders make it?

   2. ZLZach Lawryk11:50

      Yeah, it always, you know, boggles my mind. I think, and I was thinking about this this morning as well, I think it's because the, the process of starting a company, developing a product is, is a very personal journey, right? You're really wrapped up in yourself, how it's gonna impact your life, your friends, your family, and how this company is gonna change your world.... so you're thinking about yourself all the time and you sometimes don't take the time to empathize with the actual customers that you're selling the solution to. So when I talk to a lot of early-stage founders, they have a really great idea that's been validated by other technical co-founders who have mentored them. The technology is sound, um, they have been validated by investors who are excited at the, the potential of working with a really smart person, but they haven't taken the time, and it really, it doesn't take much time, to sit down and think who is the actual customer? Let me find an actual person, even on just LinkedIn, that would buy this. Who is that person? What is their role? What do they care about? Uh, what are their pains and challenges that they have, uh, in their job and in life? And, and sort of map that out in a way that help you describe what product market fit might look like for a particular ideal customer profile. And there's almost no time spent on that early in, in, um, company building, which surprises me, and I think can be a really powerful exercise. So when I, you know, try to mentor folks earlier, earlier stage companies that have no, you know, sales, uh, expertise or, or background, that's the first thing I do is like, "Think about who you're actually gonna sell this product to. Map out their pains and gains." And, um, who is the, the, the, the, was it Marty Cagan? Is that the guy that you just had on the podcast?

   3. HSHarry Stebbings13:22

      Yeah.

   4. ZLZach Lawryk13:23

      So he said something, and I was listening to this yesterday in the car, uh, I'm glad he brought this up. H- he kinda alluded to the concept of these business value canvases.

   5. HSHarry Stebbings13:32

      Yeah.

   6. ZLZach Lawryk13:32

      Um, and, um, I can, you know, share, I think I shared this resource with you. That's a really powerful tool that any technical founder or sales founder or anybody in their career can use to help empathize with customers.

   7. HSHarry Stebbings13:42

      Can you, can you, can you talk to me ab- can you talk to me about it and how we should use it?

   8. ZLZach Lawryk13:48

      It's, uh, it's just, it's a really empathetic exercise that anybody can walk through where they identify who their customer is as an individual and a businessperson, uh, the pains that that customer has, uh, the gains your product potentially could provide. And you essentially, you, you connect your potential customer with your product and solution and essentially just try to map what your solution does to the outcomes that your customer is trying to achieve. That's a vast oversimplification there, but it is a really powerful exercise to walk through. And you imagine the power if you actually have that sort of visual in your head as you're developing your product and talking to customers and talking to investors. Makes things a lot

9. 14:27 – 16:06

   The Challenge of Multiple Buyers

   1. ZLZach Lawryk14:27

      easier.

   2. HSHarry Stebbings14:28

      How do you think about the challenge of multiple buyers? And what I mean by that is, especially today, we're seeing CFOs become a lot more involved in buying decisions across every different software product that their teams are buying.

   3. ZLZach Lawryk14:39

      Yeah.

   4. HSHarry Stebbings14:39

      How do you think about the challenge of incorporating suddenly multiple different buyers, including the CFO?

   5. ZLZach Lawryk14:46

      Yeah, I mean, I think it is a healthy forcing function. Like, we're all scared about the current macroeconomic climate, but, you know, we also are aware that this is, you know, this is where the, the greatest companies emerge and it creates some real business fitness, I think, particularly in sales. Like, now we're forced to really think about how we're gonna sell this if a CFO is scrutinizing every detail.

   6. HSHarry Stebbings15:06

      Hm.

   7. ZLZach Lawryk15:06

      Uh, having the CFO involved is always tough, but it forces you to think about true, like, ROI, dollarized ROI, which is not always easy. Especially for early stage founders, that should be an exercise that they go through. Like, if you had a CFO, uh, come into this conversation and had to justify the spend on this amongst all the other software that they're purchasing or investing in, how would you do it? So that same exercise where you would, like, identify a primary buyer, you could identify, you can sort of do the same thing for every potential buyer or influencer as a part of the process. Um, and if that's the case, it's something that's required and necessary.

   8. HSHarry Stebbings15:37

      How do you find your approach in messaging differs when incorporating CFOs into the sales selling process?

   9. ZLZach Lawryk15:44

      I think you, going back to the hard ROI, you have to think about how they're gonna actually justify the investment and be really clear and crisp about the business outcomes at a higher level that your solution or technology provides or helps, helps your customer accomplish.

   10. HSHarry Stebbings15:59

       You, you mentioned value also quite a few times here.

   11. ZLZach Lawryk16:02

       Mm-hmm.

   12. HSHarry Stebbings16:02

       When we think about connecting value, uh, from your solution to

10. 16:06 – 17:38

    Biggest Mistake Founders Make

    1. HSHarry Stebbings16:06

       the customer needs, what do you think are the biggest mistakes that you've seen founders and early-stage teams make from many of your mentoring days and sessions?

    2. ZLZach Lawryk16:14

       I think it's how, making sure that the value is proportional to the investment that we require for that company to be successful. Like, value is such a, a broad term, but sometimes you could say, yeah, of course this provides value. Like, this is a solution that provides day-to-day value for, uh, my end user, but in aggregate, is not enough business value or is not a strategic business outcome that warrants the amount of money they'd have to spend to invest in a solution like that. Um, and it seems really simple, but it's not. It's not obvious. And I think, like, you know, as I think about my career, the one, uh, you know, common thread through all the companies that I've worked at is that every company we spent a lot of time trying to reorient to peo- people around value selling. Like Slack, it took multiple years. When we arrived, you know, the PLG motion, one of the deficiencies of a PLG motion is that, you know, value isn't really necessarily rooted in the sales process early on. You're trying to help facilitate the process. Um, so we had to sort of connect value selling to what a PLG mo- motion looks like and connect the two, and it takes time. It's not obvious.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings17:17

       I totally agree with it being challenging, especially when it's not obvious. I think that the important question also for me when I think about incorporating this into, like, I, I like to think of these shows as, like, metaphorical discussions where you're an angel and an advisor to me as an early-stage founder, 'cause we have so many founders that listen. When we think about, like, solutions engineering and structuring our team

11. 17:38 – 19:27

    Why We Need Solutions Consultants

    1. HSHarry Stebbings17:38

       today, why do we need solutions consultants, solutions engineers, fundamentally? Like, what is their need, first?

    2. ZLZach Lawryk17:48

       Well, there's two things. One, uh, if it's a highly technical product that requires-

    3. HSHarry Stebbings17:53

       Mm-hmm.

    4. ZLZach Lawryk17:53

       ... deep expertise, oftentimes you can't have the same person be the account executive who also is going to go to that level of depth with a customer.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings18:01

       Mm-hmm.

    6. ZLZach Lawryk18:01

       So there are some solutions where very, very early on, you just have to have a technical expert on every call, because it's that detailed and that technical of a product or solution. On the other hand, it's also, um, if you're competing in a market...... where your competing sales teams have a, a solutions engineer or consultant as part of the sales team's composition, that's when you have to think earlier about adding a solutions consultant to your team as well. Because part of, uh, what we do is, you know, provide that deep expertise, solution expertise, presentation, uh, differentiation through process and approach. But also, it's a competitive differentiator in how you approach a sales cycle, um, and how you appear to a customer. And if you show up and you're- there's only an AE who's trying to handle this end-to-end, um, and you're competing for a large, you know, ACV or dollar amount, uh, it, it's really difficult to compete without the right resources in place.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings18:50

       Can I ask a really unfair one? Uh, what size dollar ACV does it make sense to really have your solutions engineer, solutions consultant as part of the process?

    8. ZLZach Lawryk19:00

       It depends on the volume. Uh, it's, it's a really hard question. I mean, there are some, I just talked to, um, a CEO yesterday who was, we were talking about the ideal AE to SE ratio. And his average, uh, ACV was about, like, 35K. So it's all about how many opportunities you think your AEs can manage and how many opportunities you need your SEs to help manage. And then you think about the win rate and h- if it converts and it's worth the investment that you're making, that additional resource.

12. 19:27 – 21:03

    The Transition to “Customer Success”

    1. ZLZach Lawryk19:27

    2. HSHarry Stebbings19:27

       Where do SEs sit in the stack also with then customer success? 'Cause you've got AEs and then SEs that then move to customer success. Like, uh, is there a handholding process between SEs and customer success to ensure the smooth integration? And do the AEs leave at some port- like, how does that work, considering customer success as well?

    3. ZLZach Lawryk19:48

       In an ideal world, yes, there's a perfect handoff. And that's something that, you know, we've done at, in every company that I've been at, is trying to improve that handoff and make sure it's a logical handoff. There's also a modern movement for SEs to take on more of that responsibility. And I think for at least the age-

    4. HSHarry Stebbings20:02

       Yeah, 'cause sure- surely-

    5. ZLZach Lawryk20:04

       ... I would recommend that.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings20:04

       ... surely, like, customer success isn't technical enough in a lot of ways to suddenly manage the process from an SE who's done incredible work, got them to that stage, they've been impressed by the depth of knowledge, and then you hand over to CS, who I'm sure is fantastic, but they won't have the depth that you have, and it's, like, almost like a letdown.

    7. ZLZach Lawryk20:23

       Yeah, I mean, and so, you know, that's sort of the, the, the modern movement. I think, like, Frank Slootman sort of championed the idea that he doesn't wanna have customer success at any of his companies. Um, but I think what he's really saying is that he wants the sales team to take more responsibility for the success of a customer.

    8. HSHarry Stebbings20:40

       Mm-hmm.

    9. ZLZach Lawryk20:40

       Um, it's not that they don't have CSMs in the traditional sense, but that they have, uh, more responsibility to sell good deals so the customer doesn't churn. And I think when you extend the solutions consultant deeper in the sales process or even post-sales, it ensures customer success. And early on, I would say, like, if you're, you know, a company of, you know, less than 50 people, that your SE is gonna take on more of that responsibility, and that's

13. 21:03 – 22:20

    How to Structure Comp for a Sales Engineer

    1. ZLZach Lawryk21:03

       good. That's healthy.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings21:04

       So AEs are often, uh, associated with being coin-operated, being very, kind of, financially driven and incentivized. Whether we agree or not, like, a lot of their comp is based around, you know, closing customers and closing dollars. When you have an SE in the room, it makes their life a lot easier and it takes a lot of weight off them.

    3. ZLZach Lawryk21:23

       Uh-huh.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings21:23

       How does that impact comp for sales reps? Um, does that mean the comp is then in the hands of the SE? H- how does comp change when incorporating an SE into the process?

    5. ZLZach Lawryk21:35

       Well, if, uh, you were gonna invest in SE resources, you gotta have larger quotas for the AEs, for sure. Because the idea is, is you have to believe that by adding additional resources to the equation that they'll be able to execute on a much larger quota at the same rate with additional SE resources. And the SEs, you know, from an SE comp perspective, I believe should always have a variable component. You want them to have some skin in the game, but there's less risk involved. So, you know, typically you've got the AE was 50/50, uh, you know, 50 base, 50 variable. And the SE in an ideal world is, like, 70/30. Um, and you want the SE, in my opinion, to have as much skin in the game as possible and be connected to the same number as the sales executive, because they need to have a shared destiny and they need to be considered

14. 22:20 – 23:29

    When to Hire Your First Sales Engineer

    1. ZLZach Lawryk22:20

       salespeople as well, in my opinion.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings22:21

       When should we hire our first? You know, often we hear about kind of hiring the first sales rep and doing it two by two. When do we hire the first S- SE?

    3. ZLZach Lawryk22:30

       It depends on, uh, the sales process, of course, and how technical the product. Because, you know, as I mentioned, like, you may have a product that you as an AE can't sell it without some sort of technical expertise, so that would be very early on. But I would say on average, across a wide variety of products, when you get to about, like, five to seven reps, because, you know, you're starting your first sales team, you probably, you know, need to hire more capable, multifaceted AEs for the first five. But then you get to a point where, you know, they can't be handling all the demos and handling all the follow-up and handling all the technical details and solutioning. You're gonna achieve scale by adding another sort of central resource at a, like, a five to one ratio, who can scale beyond and handle some of the back office stuff as well. Um, and a great example, I joined a company called Get Satisfaction long ago. Uh, I was the first SE, and I think we had about five or seven reps or so.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings23:18

       Okay. So if we use that as a start point, we now know where SEs sit in the process. We know when to hire them. I need to hire them now. I got five to seven, and you're gonna help me

15. 23:29 – 33:03

    Hiring Tips for Sales Engineers

    1. HSHarry Stebbings23:29

       hire my first. Thank you so much.

    2. ZLZach Lawryk23:31

       Yeah.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings23:31

       How do I structure the hiring process for an SE?

    4. ZLZach Lawryk23:34

       Uh, it's pretty simple. Li- I, I believe that, uh, you need to have, you know, a process that helps you get to know that person, of course, as well. There is something that we did at Slack which we haven't yet implemented at Rippling, I'm not sure if we will, uh, which is, uh, sort of a chronological interview. And it seems like it's a lot of time to spend, but we would spend an hour and a half going through a, a person's background, job by job, to understand their motivations, why they joined the company, why they left the company. You know, especially if you're in a lot of interviews, it's really difficult to get to know somebody and really get to know their motivations and the work they've done and whether or not, uh, you know, their resume is actually reflective of the impact that they've had over time.Um, so that was a really helpful exercise. That's not just unique to SEs, but that's something we did, and I thought it was really effective and helped us get to know and hire really great people from z- basically zero to 200 across the board. And then you also wanna have, uh, an opportunity for them to demonstrate the craft because there's very much, like, part art and science in this role. Like, you... Deep expertise is important, but what's also important and what makes SEs the most successful is if they also are great presenters and can articulate value. So you need to give them an opportunity to do that.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings24:43

       Can I ask, in terms of demonstrating the craft, the thing that I find really hard is, if they demonstrate a product that you don't know so well, you'll just be easier to impress. But if you get them to demonstrate your product, you know it so well-

    6. ZLZach Lawryk24:55

       Yeah.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings24:55

       ... you'll automatically think less of them. How do you get them to demonstrate their product in a neutral environment where they have a fair chance?

    8. ZLZach Lawryk25:03

       That's an age-old question, Harry. It's, it's uh, happy ... I debate that, like, every year. Ultimately, where I stand today is you get them to demonstrate your product because you know and understand the value prop better than anybody. Like, you understand the target customer. And you just have to, um, do so with the understanding that it's not going to be the best demo of your product that we've ever seen, but you have to understand how to measure for competency or evaluate for competency as it relates to that. So, what we do and what I've done in the past is you give them sort of a, um, a stripped-down scenario, something that would be easy for any, you know, technologist to grok and to understand, but helps them demonstrate whether or not they can connect value to what your product does. And I think it, it, it can be structured in a way that's fair to anybody and fair to the right candidate.

    9. HSHarry Stebbings25:53

       Who do you have in that demonstration? What parts of the org? Is it just you? Is there, uh... Who else is in there?

    10. ZLZach Lawryk26:00

        It's... I usually have a panel. So it's myself, depending on, you know, how many people we have involved. You wanna have the hiring manager, potentially from someone from the sales side if they have the time and skill because it's always great when you hire a new SE to have endorsement from, you know, a sales counterpart to say, "This person's great. They're gonna, they're gonna hit the ground running." And another SE or SE manager. Um-

    11. HSHarry Stebbings26:18

        Do you ever get problems with, like, traditional sales reps in terms of people thinking you're stepping on their toes, feeling a little bit of encroachment in terms of their role, and how SEs play into it?

    12. ZLZach Lawryk26:28

        Yes. Yeah. Uh, especially when you hire the first one, or especially at a company that has grown up from, you know, very, very quickly. You've had a lot of capable reps who've done all of what SEs are doing and perhaps more, um, because they had to. They didn't have those resources in the past, and it's something that just takes some time to work out of. They have to... You have to help with th- help those folks understand the value of having additional resource and also understand the value of team selling. Because even if... Uh, one thing that I think is important to understand about SEs and team selling in general, but even if both people can do the, exactly the same thing, there's a lot of value in having just two people on a call because a prospect or customer is going to answer questions differently coming from an SE than they would from an account executive. Because they, they, they, they-

    13. HSHarry Stebbings27:15

        How so?

    14. ZLZach Lawryk27:15

        ... have sort of this, this, this perception that the account executive just wants to, uh, get them to close the deal, and the A- the SE truly cares about the business, which is true, but it's just this, this dynamic that continues to play out.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings27:27

        When you're evaluating SE talent in the interview process, when you review your own process, are there common questions that you ask? Are there common ways that you try to identify talent or characteristics?

    16. ZLZach Lawryk27:40

        Yeah. I mean, uh, over time, we've developed, like, a competency-based hiring model, which I think is really important, especially, you know, as, you know, you can't rely on resumes, uh, as-

    17. HSHarry Stebbings27:50

        Mm-hmm.

    18. ZLZach Lawryk27:50

        ... you know, the only proxy for success, as we all know. And it doesn't matter what company somebody came from. Uh, we like to have them really talk through experiences where they've demonstrated value. If they're early in their career, they may not have many of those examples. But the way they sort of ar- can articulate how they approach learning about something, taking that information, and putting it into sort of presentation form, and articulating the value of something, be it a, you know, an app on their phone or a piece of software that they've supported in the past, that can be really telling about whether or not they are, uh, capable and have the competencies to be really successful in the role. And then another component that's critical, especially in this role, is that it doesn't matter how smart or good of a presenter or how technical an SE is. If they can't work with their AE counterparts, they're never going to be successful. So we really wanna make sure that they have a history of collaborating with people of all different types, and that's really important.

    19. HSHarry Stebbings28:44

        H- how do you know? I, if I'm... If you're interviewing me, "Yeah, I got on great with my team. We were, we were great friends."

    20. ZLZach Lawryk28:51

        You gotta continue to ask questions. Show me an example. Show me an example of how you dealt with, uh, conflict on the team. And that can be really telling. Once you start to break through, like, everybody's got a set of prepared-

    21. HSHarry Stebbings29:02

        (laughs)

    22. ZLZach Lawryk29:02

        ... interview questions or retorts, but you've got to ask that second, third, and fourth question to continue to break through and say, like, "So, what happened when you had a conflict? Tell me something about your job that you hate. Tell me what ha- what you really don't like about the job. Tell me what you really didn't like about the team that you worked with." Those sort of questions can be really revealing.

    23. HSHarry Stebbings29:20

        So, I know there's no right or wrong answers, but there are bad answers. What's a bad answer to how you managed and handled conflict?

    24. ZLZach Lawryk29:30

        I think-

    25. HSHarry Stebbings29:31

        'Cause no one's gonna go, "Well, you know, I shot them." (laughs)

    26. ZLZach Lawryk29:35

        (laughs) That would be a bad answer, and I would say, "Thank you for your time." (laughs) Uh-

    27. HSHarry Stebbings29:39

        You're hired. (laughs)

    28. ZLZach Lawryk29:41

        Yeah. You never know. Depending on what you're selling, that might be a, a benefit. But what, what's hard to hide is an SE who is generally, like, a very high IQ smart person, right? Sometimes they have a low tolerance for working with folks of varying levels of aptitude or experience, and that's-

    29. HSHarry Stebbings29:58

        Mm-hmm.

    30. ZLZach Lawryk29:58

        ... really critical in the SE role, especially as you're onboarding your new account executives. You have to sort of be tolerant of where they are in their stage of growth. It can be really revealing to ask some questions about, "What happened when you dealt with somebody that didn't know what they were talking about?" Or, "What happens when you deal with an AE who's early in their, uh, in their, um-"... in their ramp. Like, how did you help them? Describe some examples. It's very easy to cut through the BS there, determine whether or not they're somebody who, uh, is tolerant and can help mentor and evolve the reps that they work with, or somebody who, uh, thinks the world of themselves and is not going to be a collaborative individual.
16. 33:03 – 34:32

    How to Onboard a Sales Engineer

    1. HSHarry Stebbings33:03

       I've never onboarded before, though. Fuck. What's the ideal onboarding process for SEs, and how do I structure it?

    2. ZLZach Lawryk33:10

       It's, I think, pretty simple. You, you obviously will have some sort of product training depending on, you know, what state of growth you're at. When we were at Slack, we sort of built it from, from scratch. They had, uh, some well-documented like, product documentation, et cetera. We used something called WorkRamp, um, there are many tools like it, uh, to walk, uh, a candidate through like, a six-week process, where basically they have some self-service training they go through, they get exposure to a lot of customer calls, and they get a lot of exposure to the ideal customer profile as well, and sort of a blend of both I think is critical. Like, it can be done in a lot of different ways. I don't think it takes, you know, a number of months to, to get somebody ramped, depending on the, uh, the technical depth of a product. But ... And it's very easy just to put together, you know, a, a product training and enablement and onboarding, customer training enablement and onboarding. And you want them coming out, uh, understanding and feeling confident in how to present and demonstrate the product, and confident in understanding, uh, the ideal customer profile and who the buyer is.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings34:06

       That's interesting. So, a lot of people say we should put them with, um, uh, customer support at some point too. They clearly un- understand and identify the problems. D- do you see a point in putting them with customer support?

    4. ZLZach Lawryk34:16

       If you ha- if you have the time to do that, that, that can be a helpful way to accelerate product expertise. I just think logistically, that's difficult depending on the size. But if, you know, if you're a smaller company and, uh, you're hiring your first SE, I think that's a great way for them to get exposed to the kind of questions

17. 34:32 – 35:39

    ACV Experience vs Industry Experience

    1. ZLZach Lawryk34:32

       that are coming through, for sure.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings34:34

       Would, would you rather an SE have experience in your market, or they have experience selling that level of SC- ACV? Which would you lean on if you could only have one?

    3. ZLZach Lawryk34:45

       Early stage in the market, I think it's, it's hard to make that sacrifice, especially when every hire has to ramp more quickly. When you get bigger, you have the luxury of spending more time developing talent and giving them more time to get familiar with the industry or market. Um, it, and, and we've started-

    4. HSHarry Stebbings35:01

       So you're saying, so you're saying-

    5. ZLZach Lawryk35:02

       ... hitting that point already.

    6. HSHarry Stebbings35:02

       ... the domain expertise on the market matters more to you than their experience selling a certain level of ACV?

    7. ZLZach Lawryk35:09

       Yes, early stage, because our, uh, the SE's job is all about credibility, in my opinion. Um-

    8. HSHarry Stebbings35:14

       Mm-hmm.

    9. ZLZach Lawryk35:14

       And you can get them comfortable selling a deal of a larger size or talking to a customer of a different stature, um, but if they don't have any credibility talking to that customer, it's all for nothing, right? So having somebody to come in with industry credibility and expertise, um, I can train them more easily on the sales side than I can on the industry stuff.

    10. HSHarry Stebbings35:31

        Where, where does the AE's role end and the SE's role end when it comes to actually closing the

18. 35:39 – 36:33

    How to Close a Deal with a Sales Engineer

    1. HSHarry Stebbings35:39

       deal? So they bring the credibility, the product knowledge, the technical ability. Do they then kind of hand back to the AE to close? Do they close? How, how does that closing process work with SEs involved?

    2. ZLZach Lawryk35:51

       I believe that the, you know, it is the AE's responsibility to close. So we have the concept of like, a solution win that we work towards as SEs, and our job is to ensure that the technology aligns to what the customer is trying to accomplish from a business perspective. And depending on the product or service you offer, there are certain checkboxes that you just need to check. As evaluation, sometimes that's like, a security questionnaire that everybody has to fill out, or they have to have received the, you know, security presentation. And we would have to ensure that they have, you know, all the right requirements and technical requirements, that they are a fit for the solution or product that we, uh, or service that we provide.... and then it is the AE's responsibility to close.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings36:28

       Okay, so it's the AE's responsibility to close. So, like, often close rates is how you

19. 36:33 – 37:47

    How to Measure Success

    1. HSHarry Stebbings36:33

       measure success, especially for AEs. How do I measure the success of my new SE? This is my first. How do I measure if they're successful or not?

    2. ZLZach Lawryk36:42

       This is also a very challenging question ...

    3. HSHarry Stebbings36:45

       (laughs)

    4. ZLZach Lawryk36:45

       ... because there are a lot of non-correlated factors to why-

    5. HSHarry Stebbings36:49

       Yeah.

    6. ZLZach Lawryk36:49

       ... an SE is on a deal, right? And, you know, you could look at close rate. That's, you know, the easiest way to say it. Uh, for, you know, deals where there is an SE, we should have a higher close rate. But at the same time, an SE can be a great way to qualify deals out early stage and save us time so we're working on the right deals at the right time. On the flip of that as well, and this is not gonna be a direct answer to your question 'cause it's a tough one, but on the flip side of that, uh, you're typically working on deals that have a, uh, a higher chance of, of closing because they're better qualified and warrant a more technical resource. But one of the things I heard, this is actually ... I, I heard this on a recent podcast, and I think this was the VP of SE at, um, at SolarWinds, and I really liked the way he talked about this, is that he measures, uh, how the deals where they ... the, the close rate of deals where they've achieved a solution win and all the things that they did to achieve said solution win is their measures for success of whether or not SEs are effective. And so we wanna have more SEs on deals working towards a solution win to

20. 37:47 – 38:51

    Red Flags for Sales Engineers

    1. ZLZach Lawryk37:47

       determine whether or not, uh, we were successful as a function.

    2. HSHarry Stebbings37:49

       What are the biggest red flags I should look out for in the first three to six months of the SE starting? What are the signs where you're like, "Ugh. It's not working"?

    3. ZLZach Lawryk37:58

       If they can't work with their AEs, that's red flag number one. If they're ... You know, sometimes you get folks with, like, a deep technical background who, uh, don't have a tolerance for salespeople and, uh, are running into personal conflict or professional conflict. I mean, that's red flag number one. If, if that's not working, it's never going to work. It doesn't matter how smart the person is. Red flag number two is that, you know, especially in early stage companies, the person that you hire has to be an absolute self-starter and somebody who's both a builder and willing to work on deals. Um, and I remember my first job at, uh, as the f- ... the lone SE at Get Satisfaction was, uh, I was building the demo environments. I was building all of the decks. I was working on deals. I was working with business development. Like, you just have to be really up front in describing it. That's what the job's about and people have to be excited about. If they aren't willing to participate in all those activities, then they're not gonna work out.

    4. HSHarry Stebbings38:46

       Zach, we're gonna do a quick fire. I'm gonna say a short statement. You're gonna hit me with your immediate thoughts.

21. 38:51 – 41:17

    Quick-fire Round

    1. HSHarry Stebbings38:51

       Does that sound okay?

    2. ZLZach Lawryk38:52

       Sure. Let's do it.

    3. HSHarry Stebbings38:53

       So what sales tactics have not changed over the last five years?

    4. ZLZach Lawryk38:57

       It's all about the customer.

    5. HSHarry Stebbings38:58

       What sales tactics have died a death?

    6. ZLZach Lawryk39:01

       Multi-hour discovery calls.

    7. HSHarry Stebbings39:03

       (laughs) How do you define the sales playbook?

    8. ZLZach Lawryk39:06

       (laughs) How do you f- ... That's, that's a really good question. I think the sports analogy still rings true. It is, uh, a tactic or strategy you apply at the appropriate time-

    9. HSHarry Stebbings39:17

       I like that. Uh, h-

    10. ZLZach Lawryk39:18

        ... for an achieved goal or a desired outcome.

    11. HSHarry Stebbings39:20

        Who's the single best sales rep you've worked with?

    12. ZLZach Lawryk39:24

        Travis Bryant.

    13. HSHarry Stebbings39:25

        Why?

    14. ZLZach Lawryk39:27

        Uh, because I think that he is an SE at heart and, uh, was also, was always very empathetic and a delight to work with as, uh, as an SE.

    15. HSHarry Stebbings39:35

        What one piece of advice would you give to a sales leader starting a new role today?

    16. ZLZach Lawryk39:39

        Really good question. One piece of advice I would give to a new sales leader starting a new role today. Uh, take the time to truly understand the business outcomes you're enabling for the buyer and optimize accordingly.

    17. HSHarry Stebbings39:52

        What's your favorite sales tool and why?

    18. ZLZach Lawryk39:55

        Favorite sales tool. And you'd think something would come to mind immediately. Um, I would actually- (laughs)

    19. HSHarry Stebbings39:59

        (laughs)

    20. ZLZach Lawryk40:00

        ... say that, uh ... I'm gonna say more of, like, a medium. I think video is my favorite sales tool today. Video.

    21. HSHarry Stebbings40:07

        Asynchronous or live?

    22. ZLZach Lawryk40:09

        Asynchronous. Asynchronous video is, I think, a super effective tactic for developing pipeline and engaging customers earlier in the sales process.

    23. HSHarry Stebbings40:17

        What would you most like to change about the world of sales? Final one for you. What one company sales strategy have you been most impressed by recently and why?

    24. ZLZach Lawryk40:26

        I think ... And it's funny 'cause I'm not a customer yet, but, uh, there's a company called Vivint that I think does an exceptional job of, uh, they, they create technology for solution consulting organizations and solution consulting leaders. I think they've done an exceptional job of, uh, engaging and building a community, a customer-centric community around their, their products and services. Uh, and it feels very intentional. And as much as I ... Like, frankly, as much as I have resisted in, uh, investing in like technology, uh, they've done a great job of pulling me into that community and getting me exposed to their products and services.

    25. HSHarry Stebbings41:02

        Zach, Maggie told me you were special. I've so enjoyed doing this. I feel like I've learned a whole new, uh, uh, uh, kind of depths of the world of (laughs) sales. Um, but thank you for putting up with my questions. I hope they weren't too basic, but you've been incredibly patient, so I so appreciate the time, my friend.

Episode duration: 41:17