The Twenty Minute VCZaria Parvez: How Duolingo Scaled to 8M TikTok Followers & How to Create Viral Content | E1105
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
115 min read · 22,735 words- 0:00 – 1:08
Intro
- ZPZaria Parvez
I always say the reason why our (bell chimes) TikTok was so successful is because ...
- HSHarry Stebbings
This is Zaria Parvez, the creative genius behind Duolingo's viral TikTok account. She started the account in September 2021, making TikToks using Duo, the company mascot. Now it's the biggest brand account on the platform at 8.8 million followers and over 190 million likes.
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think the real tipping point for me was when TikTok mentioned that they had one billion users, and I remember so distinctly thinking, "If people are on TikTok, they're not on our app." I always say our TikTok is like a sitcom. Everything we put out there is an episode. Some are amazing and go super viral, some are just there to build the storylines, but it's something that can live and function as short form video content even if it was to leave TikTok.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What do you think is the hardest thing about content today?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I feel like for me is...
- HSHarry Stebbings
Zaria, I am so excited for this. As we said beforehand, I've been a fan for a long time. So first, thank you so much for joining me today.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. Thanks for having me. Excited to be here.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Not at all. This is my favorite type of show where I write a schedule and we're definitely not gonna stick to it, but, you know, we should have it anyway.
- 1:08 – 5:52
Duolingo Introduction & Green Owl Story
- HSHarry Stebbings
Um, so tell me, uh, you know, we see Duolingo's content today. It's incredible. You've nailed it. But how did you first get into the role with Duolingo doing content? Let's start there.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. I think it's, it's not a typical story, but also feels pretty typical. Um, I was a pandemic graduate, so I graduated in 2020. And I did advertising and marketing in school, so it was kind of a natural next step. Um, but as for Duolingo, I actually wanted to be in a super small city. I did not like New York. I did not like agency culture, so trying to figure out, like, what does that mean for me. Um, and Duolingo, like, popped out to me mainly because, A, it was in a small city, so I thought it'd be low pressure, just a good time to enjoy just being and existing. Um, and the mission of Duolingo is really near and dear to my heart. Um, it's to make education accessible, but what's even deeper to me than that mission of what it is, is that it was in an inherently diverse place. Like, it's been founded by two immigrants, like, people who just, you have to speak different languages here to, like, you know, like, for the app to exist. And so you're around people from different cultures, different backgrounds. Um, and just to clarify, you don't actually have to speak another language to work here, but, like, around you, like, you'll hear it and you'll see it and you're a part of that, and that comes with the culturals and different cultures and all that stuff together. Um, so yeah. That's what brought me here. And then for content, if I'm being honest with you, I started off for a whole year of just doing normal, like, happy Earth Day posts and things you'd expect a language learning app to do. Um, and it wasn't until a little bit later that we started taking more risks and creating the content we do now.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I ask, what took you to the next level? Because there is, bluntly, a huge amount of content, which is happy Earth Day, happy Sunday, happy Mother Day, whatever it is. When did you go, "Huh. I could be a little bit different here."
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think it was the naivety of ta- of, like, being in an office for the first time. Like, I always say the reason why our TikTok was so successful is because I didn't really know all that much about advertising, if I'm being honest. Like, I was a new grad. I kind of had fresh eyes on it. And I remember walking into the office, and this is, like, after the pan- well, after pandemic, I don't know. Um, but when the office opened for the first time and things were coming back to normal. And I walk into the office and there was this big green owl, which is the suit we all know and love today, just sitting in the corner. And I was like, "That is so fricking weird." Like, "Why is it just there, no one's reacting," whatever. And at the time, it was just meant for, like, people team stuff, where they go to recruiting events and then the owl pops up. And I was like, "What if I just, like..." And I love TikTok on my own. Like, I was already consuming it, and I was like, "What if I just make, like, a funny piece of content off of this?" And it was nothing crazy risky. It was nothing like, I would say, to the extent of what you may see Duo's TikTok do today, but it was just different, it was unexpected, and no brand was doing it yet. Um, and I think that was kind of our insight in. It was, like, these small human moments that I think has made our TikTok kind of blow up.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I want to start kind of top down, because I think a lot of people look at content that does very well and goes like, "How- how do I recreate it? How do I do the same?"
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And I think a lot starts with actually, before we get to the content, the platform itself. You were kind of given this open purview. Why did you decide TikTok was the platform that you wanted to spend the time on and there was the opportunity for?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think there's- there's two ways to think about it, honestly. I think, one, I grew up with TikTok. Like, that was what I was doing and using. And, like, grow up, as in, like, being in college, like, that's just what I was on. And, like, during the pandemic, I was just on it, and this was a native platform to me, so I already kind of knew how it worked and how it functioned and what worked well and what didn't work and what made me laugh. Um, and then I think the real tipping point for me was when TikTok mentioned that they had one billion users. And this was in September of 2021. And I remember so distinctly thinking that if people are on TikTok, they're not on our app. So how do we bring people back to our app? Um, and I'm a firm believer, and I know our CEO said this too, that I don't think, like, Babbel or Rosetta Stone or other language learning places are our actual competitors. Like, our real competitors are, like, TikTok and other social media platforms that are, like, taking the attention away from doing your daily lesson. So how do we use that to our advantage? How do we bring the daily lesson or the push notification to TikTok and bring people back to us?
- HSHarry Stebbings
So I agree with you totally on the competition. I just say Taylor Swift is my competition, and then I feel-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
... incredibly worried. (laughs) Um, but I- I totally agree with you-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... in terms of that perspective. Um, I think the most important thing is, like, uh, you said that you have to be a consumer of it, because you- you figure out what works.
- 5:52 – 8:23
TikTok: Art or Science?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I ask-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Mm-hmm.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... to what extent do you think TikTok is an art or a science? We have a TikTok team specifically here, and they think it's-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... a science, and they're like, "Oh, we need this music and this font and this hit rate."... do you agree, or is it not?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think, uh, this is such a cop-out answer, but I think it's a mix of both. And I'm saying that because if you don't have the science and you don't know how the science of the app works, your art is not gonna go very far.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Mm-hmm.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Um, and so when we're hiring for our teams, for example, like I don't really care about your advertising experience, and I don't really care about, like, what agencies you worked at. I care more about if I give you, like, a concept, can you find a trending audio, tell me what to film, bring it together, and have a good caption copy and good, like, text on vid- uh, video, that's like entertaining? And I think that has been more the lit- mitest of like... litmus test, if you can, like, actually create entertaining content, and it's a mixture of both. Like, you cannot create entertaining content if you don't know what the trends are because it might be a little bit too niche for someone to understand. But if you're not a creative writer and you don't know how to make something punchy in five seconds, even if you have a trending audio, it's not gonna do well.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So, I totally agree, and I li- I think that's a really good answer, by the way. That wasn't a cop-out. (laughs) VCs give you much more cop-out answers.
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
My, my question to you is, you mentioned trending audio there. I'm constantly stuck in this question of, do we copy the trends of what works, this font, this music style, or do we try and innovate and come up with our own creativity concepts and push boundaries in that way? How do you think about copying what works versus doing authentic and different?
- ZPZaria Parvez
The best way to start is to steal like an artist, and I say that because a lot of TikTok is, like, copying each other. Like, that is the truth of it. When we first started, these trends were us just copying what we see and obviously giving credit where it's due, but that is the nature of the platform. That's how these, like, voices, like voice audios go viral. It's me saying it in one se- in one scenario, somebody else saying it another scenario, and I think this idea of stealing like an artist is okay and appreciated on TikTok, where it's like you- this is your spin on it, um, and I think it's a great way to start, honestly. Like, I feel like if you're looking for trending audio, like look, like click on the audio and just see what people are doing and see where you can bring your person into that. Um, however, I think that'll only get you so far. After a certain point, once you've reached your virality, it's people kind of get the okay, they understand TikTok and how it works. They're looking for more storylines
- 8:23 – 14:58
Content Creation: Copy vs. Innovate
- ZPZaria Parvez
and more things that you can bring. So, I always say our TikTok is like a sitcom. Everything we put out there is an episode. Some are amazing and go super viral, some are just there to build the storylines, but it's something that can live and function as short form video content, even if it was to leave TikTok. So, some of the storylines, Duo and like Legal Steve, our general counsel, are always beefing. Duo loves Dua Lipa. We have Lily, this emo girl that hates Duo but somehow is always roped into Duo shenanigans, and it kind of exists, and people who get the lore get it, and we're always trying to build lore. We just did a mascot intervention, where we invited Scrub Daddy and the Teletubbies, and we like remade like some iconic old things. We did a seance with Scrub Daddy, just fun, innovative things that will get people to be like, "Oh yeah, I remember when Duo did that."
- HSHarry Stebbings
I like it. So you ha- uh, the thing that I like with a continuing storyline is the resonance that it builds and kind of the relationship that you feel to it. The question that I have then with it, though, is like for net new followers, which you have so many of-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs) Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... how do you make them feel a part of something when they're like jumping into season two, not season one?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I would say that we literally just drop them into the deepest part of the ocean-
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ZPZaria Parvez
... and say, "Swim." Um, and I think it's because I feel like as marketers, sometimes we get in this mindset that, like, we have to dumb it down and make it as simple and as explainable as possible 'cause people are not gonna understand it. And I feel like we need to be more tr- we have to have more trust in our users and our followers that they know to close the loop and can bring things together. Um, and I know this isn't exactly your question, but when we first started our account and we were building content, a big question that we had was like, okay, if we're doing silly stuff that's like Duo crushing over Dua Lipa, how are people gonna know that we're an effective language learning app? Like, they're gonna think we're silly and we don't, you know, like we don't have any efficacy. And I think for me, the response was always like, "We're able to be silly, we're able to do this because people know we have a good app." That then when they go and they go to the... after they see our TikTok and they're a converted user and they go to the platform and they're actually learning a language, they recognize that you can be the thing and also subvert the thing. You can be funny on TikTok like you would with your friends, but you could also be serious when you're learning in school or learning and working in work, um, or being on the app. And I think it's trusting that our consumers are much smarter than we think they are, and even if we make them dive in deep, like, they can figure it out. They'll scroll back if they wanna scroll back. If it's entertaining enough, people will figure it out.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Does it matter if the video doesn't... if I can watch a video on TikTok and I'm like, "I have no idea that Duolingo is a language learning app," does that matter? Because the truth is, you've built the relationship with me, and I'll watch the next one because I liked the first one. So does every video need to tie back?
- ZPZaria Parvez
It doesn't, and that's, that's what we're learning is that, like, people don't come to social to learn a language, and very few people actually care about our app when they're on social media.
- HSHarry Stebbings
No.
- ZPZaria Parvez
And I think, like, if we're lucky, people will be like complaining about how they got a C-minus in Spanish and how much they hate language learning. Maybe they'll insult our app, or they'll just confuse us with like Dua Lipa. Like, that is what people are talking about o- when it comes to social and language learning. Like, they genuinely, very few, some must, but very few people care what Duolingo has to say about the new slang word. Like, it's just not something that they're going to social for. They're going for either a break or for entertainment, so we need to grab them and meet them where they are.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you come up with the ideas? You mentioned the crushing on Dua Lipa there. I have to admit, I- I would p- be joining that. (laughs) Um-You mentioned there-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
... the, the, you know, Steve's legal, uh, officer and the relationship there. Like, how... Do you sit in a room with the creative team and a whiteboard? What does that process look like?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think the truth of it is it started with there was only one full-time employee for social, and that was me. And these were genuinely just funny tropes that I thought existed in our office. I think Duo is a very quirky place in general. Um, people have confused Duo with Dua Lipa for ages, and that's been on our community, like within Twitter. Um, and I always say, for example, for that, like the comment section is your social brief. Like, people will say stuff, like lean into that. Like, if they're telling you they wanna see X, Y, Z, give them X, Y, Z, and it can be that simple, and that's where Dua Lipa came from. Um, Steve has... It's always been a joke 'cause Steve was also, for a very long time, the only lone general counsel at Duolingo. And people used to just call him Legal Steve, and like, "Legal Steve," we'd have to check in with him, and it just became a funny natural thing that a menace like Duo would not jive with a lawyer.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And he's the most famous legal officer in the country by now. (laughs)
- ZPZaria Parvez
Oh, yeah. And like, he jives with it, and that's the best part. And I think that speaks more even to the culture of, like, who Duo hires. It's just, like, these weird, quirky, fun people who are willing to, like, do whatever to, like, for- further the mission. And like, for all of us, like, yeah, the mission's to make education accessible. I'm gonna do that by making an owl twerk on a conference room table. Steve's gonna do that by wearing a wig and pretending to get into a fight with Duo. Engineers are gonna do that by, like, making the app better. Like, we all have our own little way, and I think that intrinsic drive to actually bring new users here because of our mission is, like, what fuels all the creativity and fuels the storylines and fuels the excitement around it too.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What does that ideation process look like now? It was just you when you saw-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... funny things in the office. Is it the same now?
- ZPZaria Parvez
It's definitely more, I would say, buttoned up (laughs) than how you'd expect it to be. We now have a Head of Social, um, so I report to her, and we have a social coordinator and another social media manager. So, now there's about, what? That's four of us. Um, and we're hiring, like, an intern and another content creator, so the team has now definitely expanded. And it's honestly, like, a Slack channel of dumping, like, this is trending, this is my audio. This is trending, this is my, like... Sorry. This is trending, and this is my thought. This is what I think we should caption. This is what I think we should do. And I think the biggest thing about the ideation process for us is that it's not sitting in a room and brainstorming. It's, "I saw this trending audio. I took this suit. I filmed this. What are your thoughts?" And it's just going for it and creating the content. And it's possible the content won't see the light of day, but actually having that visual thing and kind of people working in silos, so we can hit their niches and the fandoms they're a part of and then come together to see how we hit those different parts of the internet is how we actually
- 14:58 – 17:07
Office Culture & Creativity
- ZPZaria Parvez
brainstorm and create.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I have so many questions. Could you have done this-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
... and had the creativity without being in the office? It sparked ideas, imagination. Would it have worked so well remotely?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I don't think so. And I say that as someone who is a homebody and loves being remote. But, like, it's honestly like having even... I mean, if you have a suit, maybe. But having the suit and just the random quirkiness and the thing that's... Like, the things around our workplace is what's made it fun. And like, even when we're like, "Oh, we need a microphone," like, a lot of times we'll be like, "No, no, no. Don't do a microphone." Like, "Use a water bottle as a microphone for the TikTok," and, like, stuff like that where it's just, like, we wanna use what we have, and we genuinely believe in being scrappy and like creating the content ourselves.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I, I totally agree with you. I think it's so important to see that in person. Gosh, do you feel the pressure now with new, uh, releases in terms of content releases? 'Cause you have, you know, seven-plus million followers. It's not like, "Well, 200,000, 300,000." It's still a lot, but it's a lot less. Do you feel pressure to post?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I would say I don't feel pressure from our community 'cause I feel like they kinda get it. They understand what social media people go through (laughs) and just, like, whatever you can put out there is great. I would say I do feel pressure from our marketing team in general. I think we've set this high standard. And like, candidly, like, coming in as junior talent, and this is my first job out of college, like, I've been able to s- like, succeed on a lot of different parts of, like, going viral and doing all this content stuff and, like, doing this with you, like even talking here with you today. But, like, I'm still catching up with, like, how to function in a workplace, how to be a role manager, what does it mean to work a 9:00 to 5:00. And I think dealing with that is a little bit of, like, where the cognitive dissonance comes in, where I started on such a high note that, like, I feel this pressure to always perform that way and not realizing that most people actually build up to it, and it's an ebb-and-flow experience. So, I would say I'm more dealing with, like, that internal thing of like, "You know what? It's okay if a video doesn't go viral, and it's okay if we have to go back to the drawing board."
- HSHarry Stebbings
It totally is okay, and we're gonna get to that kind of personal stratery (ph) 'cause, trust me, (laughs) I have many thoughts on it, having-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
I always struggle with some
- 17:07 – 19:51
Shorts vs. Reels vs. TikTok
- HSHarry Stebbings
elements myself. Uh, you mentioned, like, elements that are trending that you're kind of taking account of and putting in, you know, Slack channels. Is that including, like, what's happening on Instagram, or what's happening on Facebook or TikTok? Or is it just channel by channel? Like, are channels transferrable, I guess is what I'm asking?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I would say they used to not be, but now for, I think, video content, is a little bit. Um, well, actually, I take that back. I feel like they're all... (laughs) It's so hard, man, 'cause sometimes I feel like it is, and other times, I'm like, "It's absolutely not." Um, but right now, we're focusing a lot on TikTok, Reels, and Shorts. And I would say that TikTok and Reels feel more connected, and Shorts just feels like a new ballgame. Um, Shorts feels like st- Like, YouTube Shorts feels like something like my 13-year-old nephew would be posting from the back of his middle school bathroom. Like, it's just so confusing, and I'm like, "I'm trying to understand Gen Alpha and, like, what goes there." But I would say, like, the trends are very different. The content's very different there. So, we're still trying to crack that nut. And a lot of things that break the internet and trend on TikTok don't do well on Shorts. So...
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you, do you simply rip and replace for Reels and for, um, TikTok? Or do you, like, change format, style, audio, font? Is it rip and replace, or is it slightly amended?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.I would say at this rate of where we are, I would say about 75%-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Mm-hmm.
- ZPZaria Parvez
... is rip and replace and what the other 25% is us trying to actually think through like what would work better on Reels versus TikTok. And, like, our way to alleviate that is we kind of broke out, like, who's working on which channels by, like, generational divides (laughs) . So we'll have, like, a little bit of elder millennials doing Instagram while we're doing TikTok. And then we're talking to, like, our interns to help us with Shorts. And it's kind of like how those age gaps and how we consume media actually dictate who's posting on what. So, like, I might make something that's super TikTok-able and super fun, but when I suggest it to post on Reels, I've had an upper millennial be like, "That's not gonna hit. Like, fix and adjust this, maybe change how this looks." And we've done that, and then it does really well. So they're like small iterations of the same concept.
- HSHarry Stebbings
That's so interesting. So you have... uh, so I, I agree with this, but you have people per channel, not people who-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... work across all channels?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yes, exactly.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah. I totally agree. I think it's the biggest problem-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
The biggest problem with content teams is they build no verticalized knowledge in each channel, and so they just work across all of them and they're, like, okay at all of them.
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs) Yeah, exactly. So it's... and I mean, obviously, like, we're still a pretty small team, so we'll be stretched across whatever needs to be stretched across, but it's really helpful having almost experts in each channel, like, talk to us and give feedback. And same for us, like, I'll be an expert in TikTok and give feedback to my role manager who might be making some content.
- 19:51 – 21:18
The Science of Virality
- ZPZaria Parvez
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you have a good read on whether a post will go viral? Are you like, "I know this one will," and it does? Or, like, "Uh, debatable, but we'll see." Do you have a good read or is it very spontaneous?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I wish I had a go viral button so bad. Uh, I would say that every time I feel like I have a good read, the algorithm changes and I'm back to square one. Um, and I feel like I, my, myself, em, in particular on our team, I'm notorious for being... if I get too into a project, I'm convinced it's gonna fail. And I, like, don't step back and I'm like, "Wait, it's actually funny," 'cause you get so into, like, the editing and the nitty-gritty and you're hearing it over and over and over in your head where you're like, "This is just not funny anymore." Um, so I don't have a read and I'm still learning and playing it by ear, as a lot of us are. I think, though, I do have a general idea of when something is really gonna be successful, and I think that's more of, like, the genuineness is like, "Did I have fun creating this? Like, was I laughing when I was doing this? Was this something that I find entertaining? And if I didn't work at Duolingo and if I didn't give a crap about brands, would I wanna post this in my group chat?" And that's kind of my litmus test of, like, is this entertaining or good enough? And I also send some pre-content to my 13-year-old nephew to be like, "What are your thoughts on this?" And, like, his response is always brutally honest, so that's also a good helpful thing to see. So having people that will actually consume the media outside of your brand to kind of review content has also been super helpful
- 21:18 – 28:38
Consistency in TikTok Success
- ZPZaria Parvez
for me.
- HSHarry Stebbings
How important do you think consistency is on TikTok? How often do you post? What are your thoughts around that?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think there's a lot of lore that you have to, like, po- just keep posting and that's what's gonna keep you successful. I don't believe that that it matters. I believe that the quality of content is far more important than the quantity. And a lot of the times I've had to step back 'cause I got burnt out from creating content and what I was trying to push out was just pushing out for the sake of pushing out and it wasn't good. And then when I took two weeks off, nobody cared, everybody went on about their lives, it was okay, came back, viral hits and then people were fine. Like, there was... I mean, like, the, the harsh reality is that no one's sitting there missing Duolingo. Like, they're not missing our app as much as I'd love to think they're sitting there missing my TikTok content. Like, they're not. Like, it's, it's five seconds of their day just as we consume other brand, you know, branded content. And taking that mindset and approach has helped me alleviate burnout, has helped me create great content, and also, like, not take myself so seriously.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Okay. So, A, I think it's not you and Duolingo, I think it's everyone. I think we all overemphasize-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs) Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... our own importance. Like, no one will actually miss you-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah (laughs) .
- HSHarry Stebbings
... other than your mother and maybe friends, you know (laughs) .
- ZPZaria Parvez
Exactly.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So good (laughs) . Um, and even your mother's probably not watching your TikTok, no offense (laughs) , so it's okay.
- ZPZaria Parvez
No. Yeah, exactly.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's fine. Uh, uh, my question is we, we also had, um, YouTube sh- um, Shorts, we have Instagram Reels and we have TikTok. Do we need to be on all channels? Uh, a lot of people and founders say to me, "Do I need to be on everything?" And I say, "No, just be on one and be great at it." Do you agree or do you think you do need to be everywhere now?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I feel like I might have a different response to this because of our brand truth. So f- so for us, I'm very adamant about having, like, one or two sentences of what you know you're doing, so that just becomes, like, the, like, the North Star for every single piece of content you put out there 'cause it makes things just easier. Um, so for us, like, the what we've established with our TikTok is language learning is hard, so we make it fun. So that's... Everything is gonna be judged against that human truth. If... Is it showing that we're having fun? Does this seem fun and entertaining? Is this the messaging we wanna give across with that truth? And then the other truth that we have is Duo is frickin' everywhere, and that is what we want it to be. Where Duo will stop at nothing for you to do your lesson. So for us, I wanna be on multiple platforms because those are true to my brand. However, I feel like once you know your human truths and what you know what your values are and your strategy is, then you can assess where you wanna be and where you wanna show up. But because Duo is everywhere and we want Duo to be everywhere, reminding you to do your lesson, then I'm gonna be on every platform a- as much as I can to my best ability.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's a bit of a shit question, isn't it? I mean, like...
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) No, I'm just, like, I'm thinking about it 'cause, like, if you have a CFO platform for like, you know, B2B SaaS-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
... you should probably shouldn't be everywhere. Like, no, you should probably just be on one-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah (laughs) .
- HSHarry Stebbings
... and be really good at LinkedIn. But like, everyone can learn a language.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Wh- that was a terrible question. God.
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs) I loved it. No, I loved it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Well, I, uh, thank you. Uh, my, my question to you is-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
... when you think about mistakes that you made in the early days, what do you think back on and go, "Ah, that was a big mistake that we made"?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think I never realized especially, and I think this is a product of being at a smaller company, being in Pittsburgh, a very slow kind of sleepy town, is realizing when I push post, it's actually going to 7.8 million people. And I think that that weight kind of gets lost in it when you're on the internet and you kind of- I always say, "It's very easy to get lost in the sauce." You're busy commenting, you're busy creating viral content, you're busy making sure that like everything makes sense, and it's really easy to, like, slip up and, like, comment on the wrong thing or say the wrong thing. Um, so I've been really focusing on, I guess, like, taking a step back and realizing that everything I do is- has the potential to be seen by 7.8 million people, and, like, what that looks like is a lot. Like, it's just, like, a very heavy number, and I think reminding myself of that has been good to, like, avoid slip-ups and mistakes, but-
- HSHarry Stebbings
But that's so hard because it-
- ZPZaria Parvez
... I've commented, yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... it can paralyze you though, can't it? 'Cause, like, then you just don't do anything knowing the weight of a post.
- 28:38 – 42:42
Measuring Content Success
- ZPZaria Parvez
it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I ask, how do you think about doing well? And what I mean by that is, like, is it merely a case of view counts, likes? Is it a case of conversions to subscribers? How do you determine the success of content in TikTok today?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. So, our account, I think, first started off as just a brand awareness thing. Um, candidly, I didn't have the resources, the time, or with being remote, to actually create video content. I was in my home, so I was like, "All right, how do I get Duolingo on TikTok? I'm just gonna start commenting." So, I started commenting on videos and those started gaining traction, and I was like, "All right, like, people wanna see something." And then we created videos. Now, people had- when they clicked on a comment, they had something to go back to on our feed. Um, and I mean, short answer, one million views for us is, like, a viral video. That is successful. That is what is, like, written down as, like, green check, great job. But I feel like the real measure of success for me was when I noticed that people were referencing Duolingo's TikTok as, like, a home run machine or Duolingo's TikTok as, like, things outside of, like, people who would normally care about Duolingo. Um, something that was really awesome to hear is, like, from our people team, like, people were applying to work at Duolingo and, like, noting, like, our TikTok as- to- as the reason to be applying at- to work here. And I think it's moments like that where it's like, sure, like, we got- we d- we have our whole process for, like, converting users and doing all that fun stuff, but, like, the true mark of an iconic brand or, like, actually, like, making a difference is people are talking about you in their group chats. They're- it's, like, one of the main things you hear about your brand, and it's what people associate when they hear Duolingo. And I think for me that was, like- that was a success marker. Going on from that, when we first started, I didn't have any OKRs attached to it. It was more of just a test and learn experiment.... now it's like one million views is considered a viral account, I mean, a viral video. Um, we have a "how did you hear about us" survey, so now TikTok is part of that. So if we have a viral video, we'll actually see an uptick in users-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Oh.
- ZPZaria Parvez
... based off the timing of it and people saying, "Yeah. We heard about you from TikTok." So those are ways that we actually measure success. But in my head, I feel like being part of culture is far more relevant and far more impactful for me when I think about success.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah. What would you say to founders who are like, "I'm not sure about TikTok as a strategy because I just don't know if it'll actually convert to users? You might get a lot of followers, you might get a lot of likes, but I don't know if it'll actually convert to paying users." What would you say to them?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I would kindly and candidly say (laughs) , "Does your Happy Earth Day posts convert to users?"
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ZPZaria Parvez
And I'm saying that because we all have, or most brands have social teams that are doing things on social, that why not do this? (laughs) Like it feels... Like for us, it's of, still a very, very low budget execution. Like, it's, we're not asking for thousands of dollars. Like, candidly, most, I would say about 95% of our impressions are completely organic, and they're for the cost of, like, maybe Duo's costume and, like, the sushi I had for dinner while, like, filming and, like, staying up late a little bit. And I think for me, it's like, you can do things and be scrappy and still be iconic. You don't have to be spending thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars to convert people. Like, it's possible to do it by just hitting them where they get it. And that's also, again, circling back to what I said earlier, like, that's how you know you've hit a chord with that human truth, that it is true. It's not just you saying what people think about your brand. It's the truth that connects it, and that's kind of, like, the funnel that I've seen. That if, if you have to create content, why not make it entertaining? Why not make it something that people want to consume?
- HSHarry Stebbings
We spend $25,000 a month on short form video.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Hmm. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's a lot.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
It's a lot.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. It's a lot. And I pers-
- HSHarry Stebbings
We do four... We do, we do four posts a day-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... across channels, Instagram Reels, YouTube Shorts-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
... TikTok, that each individually customize. There's an internal team. I, I don't like. I don't know how you feel about agencies. I don't like agencies. (laughs)
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. I'm, I'm the same way.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But it's ...
- ZPZaria Parvez
... while there are moments, of course, of frustration, I think the frustration more is that we're just changing how things are done and what they're used to. I don't think it's a matter of, like, jealousy or anger or, like, what's going on. It's more of just, like, growing pains of now we were used to be this kind of old, not old-school brand, but a brand that kinda did more traditional stuff, and now our whole mantra is being social first. So yeah, when, like, a 25-year-old comes in and changes that, it's not gonna be easy all the time. There's gonna be growing pains. But our, like, head of marketing's mantra also is like, either you're on board or you're not, and, like, that's up to you if you wanna be a part of that. So I think it's definitely... there's definitely, like, moments, and there's tiffs, and there's moments where I feel like I have to demand respect. Sometimes people may think that I just, I got lucky. In some shape or form, I do think I got lucky. In some shape or form, I think I worked for that luck. Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Where do you think you got lucky?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I, so, okay, so I grew up in a Muslim household, and I've always believed that everything has been given to me based off of, like, the situations you've been in and the blessings you have. So that's, like, my personal thing. If you look back at it, like, I grew up in a family that was wonderful and supporting. I got to go to an awesome college. I got to learn my craft there. I got internships after that. Like, all of these were opportunities granted to me because of the access I had, and I'm very adamant about it, that, like, other people could achieve exactly what I did. I just also happened to be in the right place at the right time, and that is all about access and opportunity. And, and I know that also on the scale of, like, I was also at a brand that allowed me to post trending audios. I was also at a brand that was okay with taking more risks than maybe a bigger brand might be. So these are all things that kind of lined up for me, and then where I stepped in as Zaria, where I'm proud of myself, is I took advantage of what those things were there and, "How can I use this opportunity, how can I use this access to make something great?" So that's where I believe that. That's where the access I consider as, like, 20% luck and the other 80% is hard work and diligence. But I think it could be replicated by anyone who's given the same opportunity and access.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Now, that's really interesting, 'cause that was gonna be my question. You said about replication, um, that I, I don't think you're right.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And I mean that nicely.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
I, I'm, I've been trying to hire great social teams for years. And weirdly-
- 42:42 – 47:00
Creative Disruptions
- HSHarry Stebbings
you there.
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
Can I ask, is it frictious internally ever? When you're pushing red (laughs) buttons and doing posts, do you ever get other functions being like, "You can't do that. We had, we had this campaign lined up for next week, we have this lined up, we didn't plan on releasing that." Does it cause tension between functions?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah, it does. Um, candidly. And I think ... But I think that's natural and I think tension is required for growth. So, I think the way that I approach it is like, more of, "All right, I know this caused you ten- like, tension. Let's talk about it. Like, let me know about it." Like, I remember, for example, when Threads was a thing for, like, 0.2 seconds, we posted a photo of, like, Big Bird. I don't even remember what we said as the comment, but it was like, "Duo Big Bird," or whatever. And at the time, we had a kids app, um, and someone from the team was like, "Yo, like, it's a kids app. You can't post like..." I think it was something like us, like, swooning over Big Bird. But they're like, "You can't post that." Like, "They're from blah, blah, blah." Um, and I get these messages all the time. We have, like ... I remember we've tal- we've talked about making, like, a social media, like, thing where people can anonymously say their issues with what we're doing. Um, but I think that's okay. I think those moments of discussion and tension are important for people to understand social, for understand what does well. And you have to have thick skin. I know I've grown with thick skin, but it's important and I'm okay with it. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
A couple of things there. Do you take down posts that don't do well? Sometimes people say, "Oh, it, it looks bad if you have the historical view." And there's like, some that are real duds. Do you take them down?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think it depends. Like we have before. I think it's, if it's been like, really fricking bad, then yeah. But also, I d- I think it's more of a, like a judgment on that. But not, not usually. We kinda just keep it up.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Did you ever go through a trough of disillusion? I remember with us, we had like, a period of a month or two where like, none of our videos hit. None. That, and it was hard. Did you ever have that?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah, I feel like I'm going through that right now. So, I appreciate you saying that. Um, yeah. I, it happens, and I feel like the biggest thing is to not take it personally. I think sometimes I think my alter ego is literally a green bird, and taking a step backward to be like, "No. You are Zaria. This is your nine-to-five, and it is okay if everything is not a smashing hit." And I think that's been a very helpful way to kinda disconnect from it. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
To what extent do you find that real time is the most important? And what I find by that, mean by that is like, if it's news, it's got a much higher chance of hitting than, like, inspirational quote or wise piece of wisdom. News is what hits, I find.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you find that?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Um ...
- HSHarry Stebbings
Or if it's tied to something.
- ZPZaria Parvez
On what? (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
Like, a joke on Ryan Reynolds being at a football game, or a joke on Dua Lipa at a concert.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
And it's like, it happened last week, and now there's the video, and here we go. Do you see what I mean?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. That definitely. I think, yeah, cultural moments has had way more impact than like, regular scheduled programming. And we really try to adjust for that too. Like, we have this saying with our social team that we have our calendar-ish of like, what we wanna post, what we're thinking of. But everyone has a veto card if they're like, "This is super relevant and needs to get out today, I'm pulling my veto card." And those are things that we have in our team to make sure we're pushing out content that feels culturally relevant and feels like Duo's on top of the game.
- HSHarry Stebbings
That's so interesting. I think we're shit at structuring our content planning.
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
How do you structure your content planning?
- ZPZaria Parvez
It's very loosey-goosey. I think ... So, the way we go about it is we know that social is very much dependent on trends, so we never really plan more than, like, two weeks out. And even two weeks is, like, a bit of a stretch. Um, and pretty much every Monday, I go through the week and see, like, w- how many pieces of content we're thinking of doing. And just Monday through Friday, we'll assign people. Like, "All right, Lily, you're gonna be doing two trending videos this week. Figure it out. Mel, you have this one campaign scheduled. Is it okay if it goes live on Wednesday? X, Y, Z?" And then, say, in the middle of the week, all of a sudden, Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce are trending. "Okay, Mel, sorry, we're not posting that. We're posting about this. Tweet about this." And I think the mindset is no one is too precious about what content they're creating. Everyone is just down to do whatever, and do whatever will go viral. So, people are fine with pushing their stuff back or having to jump in and think of creative copy, or just kind of work together to make viral moments
- 47:00 – 52:39
Challenges in Content Creation
- ZPZaria Parvez
happen.
- HSHarry Stebbings
What d'you think is the hardest thing about content today?
- ZPZaria Parvez
The hardest thing?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Like, for me, it's balancing that shit. We can just copy what works and get pretty good hits.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Or actually, we can try and be different, try and be creative, and maybe flop badly. (laughs)
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think the hardest thing is, as creatives, we're very personally attached to what we put out in the world.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Mm-hmm.
- ZPZaria Parvez
And it's very hard to take critique. It's very hard to, like, look back at ourselves. And I think something that I'm going through right now is like, like, a lot of people are like, "Duolingo's always been successful," and like, "Duolingo's this and that," which is so true and it's so great. But right now, we're kind of in a rough patch, like, with our content. Like, we're trying to figure out how to, like, go on YouTube Shorts, how to make things viral. And being able to kind of remove the personal and take the critical feedback and figure out ways to be innovative is the most tough thing for me. Like, it feels like it's always, like, a goose chase, where when you think you got it right, you have to start from square zero again. And I think it's a very humbling feeling. I think it keeps us nimble, and I think it also keeps us empathetic to, like, being adjustable and adaptable, which I think is the most important skill any human being can have. Um, but yeah. I think it's that personal attachment and being able to just, like, pivot, is probably the hardest thing.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I think also, like, knowing who you are. Does that make sense? (laughs) Like, it's so easy to just copy your ... Z- we both know them, the ton of influencers. And we can all make hits like them. I'm not being rude, it's kind of easy to do. Um, but that's not what Duolingo is about.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. And I think that goes back to the north star. Like, language learning is hard, so we make it fun. And every piece of content will have some mention of that. And like, I know a lot of people are gonna be like, "Well, I didn't see language learning in this Dua Lipa thirst trap." Um, and the way that we kind of approach that is this strategy that I love to call candy to the medicine, where essentially the candy is going to be the Dua Lipa thirst trap. But the medicine, you might find it in the comment section. You might find it in the caption of us being like, doing, mentioning something about our app, mentioning something about language learning in fun and innovative ways. So like, for example, the Dua Lipa thirst trap. I remember one of our comments being like, "The only stuff you'll find on Duolingo Plus," or like, "Super Duolingo." And that is like, all right, like we just kind of plugged our premium app and now people are into it. And it's, that's the medicine to the candy, and I feel like that's a really important way of approaching content today.
- HSHarry Stebbings
No, I, I totally get you. Final one. You said before about, hey, just download the app, ten seconds, use it, engage.
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
I agree. For founders, CEOs, who think and want to engage with TikTok, do they need someone dedicated to it as a channel? Or can it be Sarah who loves TikTok and is just passionate about it?
- ZPZaria Parvez
It should be Sarah who loves TikTok and is passionate about it. (laughs) 100%.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Even if she's not in marketing or she's in a different space?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yep. 100%. I actually, my dream is to hire a standup comedian for my team. Like, candidly. I think people who are moved from marketing, who are moved from content creation, who just exist and love the content for what it is, are probably gonna help your brand go further than those with specific marketing training. And I believe the marketing training can be taught. But that, that natural ideation machine that connects with video content sometimes just comes from someone who doesn't even know what marketing is.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Who are your favorite accounts?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Okay. On Twitter, I love the New Jersey State Department, and I think they have really funny tweets. Um, on TikTok, I mean, I love Scrub Daddy. I'm a big Scrub Daddy stan, but we also do, like, a lot of content with them, so I just like ... That's why we've done content with them, just 'cause I love what they do. Um, and then in general, like just fun content that not necessarily is on TikTok, but is more long form, is Liquid Death. I just, I love Liquid Death. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
Th- and they've done such a good job, I have to say, as well.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I totally agree with you there. I also love the what I eat in a days. You know those ones?
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs) Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
I, I, I can't get enough of what I eat in a ... It's like, "What I eat in a ..." You're like, "No you don't." Wow.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah, exact- exactly. (laughs) Exactly.
- HSHarry Stebbings
That's amazing. (laughs) I always, I always send it to my mum, I'm like, "Wow."
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
That and recipes. I love watching ... I never cook.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Ooh.
- HSHarry Stebbings
But I just watch people cook. (laughs)
- 52:39 – 56:40
Quick-Fire Round
- ZPZaria Parvez
it.
- HSHarry Stebbings
So tell me-
- ZPZaria Parvez
(laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) ... which company social, in terms of like B2B or like start-up company, do you most respect on social? Could be across anything. But you're like, "They've done a good job."
- ZPZaria Parvez
Hm. Um, Scrub Daddy. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs) Fair. Uh, is it harder or easier now to win at social and content?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Harder.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Why is it harder? Because the tools are there, but it's harder to be found I think.
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah. I think it's just everyone's jumped on the bandwagon now. So standing out is getting tougher and tougher.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah. What worries you most today about social and content?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Candidly, I worry about TikTok being banned. (laughs) Um.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Yeah.
- ZPZaria Parvez
And content wise, I think I worry that I'll not be able to come up with more, like la- like content that lives beyond a trend, if that makes sense.
- HSHarry Stebbings
Does it need to?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I think at times I feel it does. I feel that's what will distinguish you between a trend when TikTok becomes irrelevant of how can you translate it across. And so storylines I think stress me out, of like, what is actually hitting the chord with people that's a storyline that they can resonate with and understand?
- HSHarry Stebbings
Do you measure cross-promotion? So a million views on a TikTok, do you measure the impact that that has on Instagram following or YouTube? Or not so much in terms of that cross-promotion?
- ZPZaria Parvez
Um, we haven't seen direct correlation if I'm being honest. I would say more of like a one million view thing on TikTok might ... would actually have more correlation with like app downloads. Um, but it kind of stays within its own little realm. We used to see people on Twitter, they would repost TikToks that we'd have, and then we'd see some more followers on Twitter. But Twitter's kind of gone to shit, so (laughs) since then-
- HSHarry Stebbings
(laughs)
- ZPZaria Parvez
... things have just been ...
- HSHarry Stebbings
Are you seeing LinkedIn just like spike in terms of engagement?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I mean, okay. LinkedIn, I actually stan LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. Um-
- HSHarry Stebbings
Agreed.
- ZPZaria Parvez
But I use it more for like my personal stuff than I would actually for Duolingo. I, I actually don't control Duolingo's LinkedIn. Um, our edit- our amazing editorial team does that. But I also ... Yeah, hot take. Gen Z is, uh, showing up more on LinkedIn, so.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... unbelievable. No, engagement is through the roof. Uh, final one for you-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Yeah.
- HSHarry Stebbings
... where do you want to be, and this is such a, like, job interview question, but like troublemaker hat on. Where would you like to be in 10 years time?
- ZPZaria Parvez
I would like to be working a 9:00 to 5:00 (laughs) and, like, stagnant. (laughs) And I'm saying that because I feel like there's this pressure for us to constantly grow and to dream to be a CMO and to dream to keep going bigger and bigger. But I wanna be at a place where I'm happy, where I have a good work/life balance, and my work is not my life. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
No, I love that. That is, uh-
- ZPZaria Parvez
Okay. (laughs)
- HSHarry Stebbings
... hmm.
Episode duration: 56:40
Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript
Transcript of episode jnORCh1HiGE
Get more out of YouTube videos.
High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.
Add to Chrome