a16zMarc Andreessen: How Movies Explain America
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
95 min read · 19,300 words- 0:00 – 2:10
Intro
- MAMarc Andreessen
LA in a lot of ways is, is sort of y- y- you could describe it as like it's the arche- archetypal American city. Here's the larger significance of Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, or, or my view of it, which is it captures a time and place that was absolutely critical to the evolution of modern America.
- KBKatherine Boyle
The reaction from the audience is extreme laughter. You are laughing during the most violent sequence for 20 minutes.
- ETErik Torenberg
[instrumental music] Well, uh, excited to have the Monitoring the Situation crew back for another episode on movies. Uh, Marc, thanks for joining again.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes, excited.
- ETErik Torenberg
So we wanted to go deeper into some of our, in some of our favorite movies. Marc, I know from watching w- movies with you that one of your genres you enjoy is movies about Hollywood.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes.
- ETErik Torenberg
And so we wanted to start with Once Upon a T- Time in Hollywood. Why don't you talk about w- what, what's so remarkable about that, that or w- why you wanted to talk about it?
- MAMarc Andreessen
The, the reason I like movies about Hollywood, I mean, one, is they, they tend to be very entertaining 'cause of course the people who make movies about Hollywood are from Hollywood, and they, they know where all the bodies are buried. Um, and they tend to put them all in the, in the movies. Um, and so they're, you know, all round up spectacular, uh, Hollywood movies. So for people who haven't seen, I would recommend Mulholland Drive. Um, it's one of Erik's favorites. Um, and [laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
[laughs]
- ETErik Torenberg
That name is rubbing. [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
And, uh, and then The Player, um, which also is an all-time, uh, all-time one. There, you know, there's, there's a bunch of the course, you know, famous ones like Sunset Boulevard, but, you know, the, the iconic, you know, clearly the, uh, the i- the iconic Hollywood movie, you know, now is, is Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, you know, by Mike White and Tarantino. Um, and so, uh, the, the reason I like Hollywood movies is because, uh, like, you know, there are a handful of cities that have a claim to be, like, the ultimate American city. Um, and you know, New York City is one of those, you know, I think, you know, San Francisco in some ways, you know, where we are is, uh, but LA and, and Las Vegas also part of the list, but I've... By the way, for Las Vegas, see Bugsy. We'll, we'll talk, talk about that another time. But, um, that, that's the iconic, uh, uh, Vegas movie. Um, but, uh, uh, LA in a lot of ways is, is sort of... Y- you, you could describe it as like it's the arche- archetypal American city and, and literally it's a, um... There, there's a great book we can, we'll, we'll put, put, put in the notes called Thinking Big, where it goes to actually the creation of the city of Los Angeles and basically like Los Angeles you could argue is the ultimate American city because it was the ultimate fake it until you make it, uh, thing. Like, it, it was the Theranos of cities.
- 2:10 – 4:55
Los Angeles: The Ultimate “Fake It Till You Make It” Story
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, a- and so, and, and, and, and very specifically, like it was desert. Like, there was absolutely nothing, uh, i- i- in LA and then, um, you know, literally it was like a land development deal by a bunch of wealthy families in the, in the, in the, in the late 1800s and they, they literally placed newspaper ads in Eastern newspapers, you know, and this is, you know, this is before, you know, photography made it into newspapers and so like, you know, when there was like a, a picture of something in a newspaper, it'd be a drawing. Um, and so they, they would, uh, they would, uh, they would, they would list, uh, land plots for sale in Los Angeles, and they would have like line drawings of like, you know, orchards and like, you know, beautiful everything's created palm trees, and then, you know, people would like buy the land, move cross-country and discover that it was just like blasted out desert. Um, and then, you know, they, they famously created, you know, they created the city. They carved it, carved it out of the desert and, um, and then, you know, they, they, they famously, um, you know, it's a famous saga of how they went to get the water, you know, which, which turned into a, you know, another great, another great LA movie, uh, you know, um, uh, uh, Chinatown. Um, and you know, it, it... As, as you'd expect, you know, Hollywood kinda goes for the, you know, kinda goes for a certain interpretation of history and so it, you know, sort of painted in retrospect as like a purely evil activity but, um, you know, there's actually, you know, there's actually like a very kind of straightforward reading which is like this is what was actually required to create a city. Um, and it was, it wasn't as black and white as, as, as sort of a, you know, the Holly- the Hollywood history has it. It was a more complex story, but still, you know, very, very interesting, amazing story. And, you know, cities like Lo- Los Angeles are created every day, so you know, that's a pretty big deal. Um, so anyway, like m- movies about LA, I think it... When, when, when they're, when they're, when they, when they reach the level of capital A Art, you know, they, they become movies about America. Um, and so it's like a great, you know, it's like a, a great test bed, um, or a great subject, you know, through or a great lens through which to look at, look at the, you know, the, the history of America and Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is, uh, I would say one, one of the top movies, um, in that, i- i- along that theme. Um, let me start by saying if, if anybody watching this hasn't seen Once Upon, Upon a [laughs] Time in Hollywood, pause the podcast immediately. Um, go watch the movie. [laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
Erik. [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
And then come back 'cause I'm going to, we are gonna spoil the shit out of it.
- KBKatherine Boyle
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and it's tremendously fun to watch if you haven't, if you haven't, if you haven't read about it. By, by the way, I'd also say, like it's a tremendously entertaining movie, like it's one of the most entertaining Tarantino movies, you know? It's like infinitely rewatchable. You know, the c- the cast is ridiculous. Um, you know, every frame of the thing is amazing. Um, so it's also a very fun movie. But, um, so okay, so here, here's the larger significance of Once Upon a Time in Holly- Time in Hollywood or, or my view of it, which is, um, it, it, it captures a time and place, um, that was absolutely critical to the evolution of modern America, um, in, um, and I think Katherine, you'll remind me, but I think the year was at '60... Was it '69?
- KBKatherine Boyle
'69, yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
'69. Yeah, '69. And so to, to put this in context, and the, the movie, you know, kinda goes through this, but the, the movie doesn't explain all the cultural backstory. It shows you what happened, but it doesn't explain the backstory so I'll just go through the backstory. So, you know, basically like what we now consider to be the kind of the Cultural Revolution
- 4:55 – 8:15
The 1960s Cultural Revolution
- MAMarc Andreessen
of the 1960s, you know, really started, you know, probably in like around 1964 with the Berkeley Free Speech Movement, and then kind of, you know, sort of, you know, kind of expanded or metastasized to include, you know, the, the sort of hippie movements and then, you know, the sort of birth of like modern rock and roll, and the rise of the counterculture, um, and you know, all of a sudden everybody's, you know, has long hair and they've got beads and they're, you know, they're wearing s- you know, suede w- uh, you know, jackets and they're, you know, wearing, or they were not washing their Levi's. Um, and, and so the, the whole counterculture and, and so there was this like, just like incredible explosion of, um, you know, uh, this was the baby boomers were, you know, you know, coming of age as, as, as basically high school and college kids. This incredible explosion of art, uh, culture, creativity, uh, social innovation, you know, the bir- the birth of the, you know, the communes, you know, the, the, you know, the, the entire hippie movement, and then of course this is also a world where, when, uh, the Vietnam War was ramping up and so this was, you know, the, the, the ramp up in, um, you know, in, in, uh, in, uh, in, uh, conscription of, uh, you know, uh, the people, you know, American kids being sent off to, to, to Vietnam, but you know, kind of, you know, [laughs] say non-volunteers. And so the, you know, the kind of anti-war movement kicked in, the, the campus, the college protests kicked in.Um, and, like, the entire thing was, like, you know... And we, and we kind of remember it as, like, this, like, incredibly, like, y- sort of spontaneous and, you know, largely positive explosion of kind of, you know, breaking out of the stultified cultural norms of the 1940s, 1950s. You know, the creation of kind of mo- the, the modern kind of liberated American society. By the way, o- obviously, also right alongside that, you know, the Civil Rights Movement and the feminism, the gay rights and, you know, kind of all, you know, kind of the, the, the whole explosion of, of, of sort of modern, modern morality through that period. Um, and anyway, from, from like, if you read the histories of the time, basically from '64 to '69, it was just basically this, like, just glorious, wonderful thing with, like, absolutely no downside. Like, you, you know, these kids that were, like, rioting on their college campuses or protesting in the streets or, like, you know, getting stoned all day or, you know, having their whole hippie thing or moving to communes and going back to the earth. Like, they, they had di- they had discovered a far superior way to live, right? They, they had discovered a far superior way to, like, coexist with nature and to be, like, to fight against the man and to fight against, you know, evil corporations [laughs] and, you know, you know, fight for the environment, to fight for the planet, to fight for peace and the whole thing. And so it was this, it was this, like, incredible kind of wave of, of positivity. And look, you know, the, the, the, the very good argument that there was a lot too, you know, a lot, lot of people do believe that and that, um, you know... And then look, it, it was, like, a time of great cultural creativity. It, you know, led to enormous amounts of, like, amazing art that we still have today. Um, and so, you know, there, there, there's a lot to like about it. And then, and then basically what happened is in 1969 is it sort of came, the, the sort of positivity came to a screeching halt. [laughs] Um, and sort of the movement, you know, basically like, you know, turned, um, you know, very much the dark side and, and, you know, that sort of began the long slide into the sort of 1970s. Um, and that, that slide was basically a slide into, you know, variously, among other things, you know, it was a slide into, like, you know, drugs, you know, going, you know, very bad drug overdoses. You know, the, the shift from sort of soft drugs to hard drugs. Um, you know, a lot of people who participated in the, the, the, the sort of the, this cultural, sort of cultural movement in the '60s ended up, like, dying. Well, we'll talk, we'll talk about the death later on 'cause, you know, the movie directly, directly hits that. But, like, there's just an, an extraordinary amount of death that followed. You know, degradation and that, you know, it, it, it, uh, you know, turned into, you know... The sexual liberation it turns out has dark sides. You know, maybe it isn't so great for everybody, and specifically, maybe it isn't so great for women. Um, uh, you know, it's like, at, at least in some ways. Um,
- 8:15 – 10:40
When the Dream Turns Dark: Manson and the End of the Sixties
- MAMarc Andreessen
and then, you know, and then look, you know, in the '70s it was like, you know, Vietnam went very bad and then the energy crisis, economic recession and then inflation and, you know, just, you know, this very kind of, you know, bitter, divisive, you know, politics. Um, you know, in a lot of ways, you know, the sort of the, the, the beginning of the political kind of dynamic that we see playing out today. And so, so in sort of the '70s, kind of things went really bad. And then, and then, you know, the, the, you know, the book ending movie, uh, uh, Once Upon a Time is the movie sort of about that pivot point. I'll talk about that. And then, you know, Boogie Nights is maybe the movie on the other side of that, right? Which is like, you know, o- o- once the culture's kind of sliding down the hill into chaos and, and madness and disease and death, you know, it, you know, kind of Boogie Nights captures that on the other side. But for the purpose of today's discussion, we can focus on, on, on, on, on 1969. And so if, if you read the histories of the time, basically what happened was it was the Charles Manson murders, uh, specifically in Los Angeles, and then at, but sort of on behalf of America. It was the Manson murders that basically were the turning point. It's, the, the Manson murders are the thing that people point to and they kind of say, "Oh, that was the moment when we all kind of realized, oh shit, that, uh, like, there's a dark side to this whole thing," and like, "Oh my God, here we go." Um, and so, and, and, and so let's talk about that at length. Um, let me just, uh, close off this, this introduct- introductory part though with kind of the most amazing thing about the movie that I found, which is, you know, i- if you know the history of that period, you know about the... I mean, the Manson murders were super famous at the time. You know, they're, you know, they're still famous in American culture. Kind of everybody knows that there was this guy, Charles Manson, that had this death cult. He was able to get these kids to, like, go out and kill random people. Um, and you know, there's still, like, all these, you know, questions like how the hell did he, did he do that? Um, right. And so, uh, and everybody knows that he was kind of intertwined with Hollywood and intertwined with the, the, the movie industry and the music industry and, and like, he, he was part of that whole thing. Um, and so, uh, you know, e- everybody kind, kind of, kind of knows that, but I think that what is, um... Oh, uh, and then specifically for, for people who know anything about that, you, there's sort of famously the Manson murders are also known as the Sharon Tate murders, uh, because there was this, like, incredibly, you know, vivacious, attractive, bubbly, you know, enthusiastic young blonde actress named Sharon Tate, um, who at the time famous, that was m- was actually married to Roman Polanski, who was, you know, one of the leading, you know, kind of new, you know, Hollywood movie directors at that time. And they were this Hol- basically this, this new Hollywood glamour power couple. Um, and then Sharon Tate, and among other people, she, you know, Sharon Tate was, was one of the people murdered. And so Quen- Quentin Tarantino comes out, you know, when he first announces the movie, he comes out and he says, you know, Quentin Taran- Quentin Tarantino is gonna make the movie about the Charles Manson murders. [laughs] Right? And if you've seen, you know, any
- 10:40 – 13:10
Tarantino’s Twist on the Manson Murders
- MAMarc Andreessen
other Tarantino movie, like Pulp Fiction for example, you're just like, "Oh my God, you know, this is gonna be a, like, this is gonna be horrible." Like, like, like the Manson murders are bad enough, but like, you know, turning them into, like, a, you know, Tarantino style, you know, mass slaughter violence, you know, Reservoir Dogs. You know, just like blood and guts, you know, uh, exploitation, you know, basically super high of exploitation movie as he'd done in the past. Uh, but it's just like it was a horror show, and I was actually, I was actually personally worried about it 'cause my, my wife got all excited to, to, to see the movie, uh, 'cause, you know, she, you know, it's 'cause it's gonna star Leo DiCaprio and Brad Pitt and it's gonna be about Hollywood and it's gonna be about fashion and, you know, all this, you know, design and all this creativity. And she's like, "We gotta go see this movie." And I'm like, I'm like, "We can't go see the movie because you are going to be so traumatized by what he puts on screen."But like you're never gonna wanna ever see a movie ever again, and you're gonna hold it against me for the rest of my life that I didn't prevent you from seeing this movie, 'cause it's obviously just gonna be a complete horror show. Like, it's just gonna be a disaster. And actually Sharon Tate's family actually came out and, and basically said wh- when this movie was first announced, basically said, like, "Wait a minute, hold on." Like, you know, "We don't want the memory of our, you know, of our, you know, of our, of our family member, you know, who, uh, you know, we, we still love, you know, many, many decades later, you know, kind of, you know, turned into basically fodder for, you know, basically Hollywood exploitation." Um, and then there was this, like, amazing thing that happened, and nobody knew anything about the movie, which is, uh, Tara- Tarantino, at least the, the way the story's recorded, Tarantino actually let, I think it was Sharon Tate's, uh, it was either sister... It may be sister or something like that, read, read the script. Uh, and immediately, uh, the family did a 180, um, and they came right out and they said, "We completely approve. [laughs] We're thrilled that he's making..." And I remember at the time reading that and I was like, "What the hell?" Like-
- KBKatherine Boyle
Well-
- MAMarc Andreessen
... how, how is it that he could possibly get the, the, the, the Tate family of all people on board with putting this on screen? And of course, you know, that, that, that leads to kind of the, you know, the movie sort of turn, turns into a valentine, a valentine to Hollywood and to America, and specifically to Sharon Tate. Um, you know, it's like, it's like, you know, it, it really, you know, kind of restores her memory in a, in an amazing way.
- KBKatherine Boyle
And I gotta...
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, go ahead, please.
- KBKatherine Boyle
He did something very smart in the movie for those of us who, who love Tarantino and follow his work. So I think there, that, that was, like, the common theme was, like, oh, God, this is gonna be horrific, right? Especially if you've read about... If you know the Manson murders, if you've read about how gruesome they are. Like, yes, ev- that was sort of the, the dominant theme. But his, hi- you know, he, he had... He made a few films between, but, like, I'd say the last other fantastic Tarantino film was the revenge fantasy Inglourious Basterds. Which is, of course, like, you know, a- a- again, like, could've been ex- I mean, it is ex- extremely
- 13:10 – 16:00
The Easter Eggs and Alternate History
- KBKatherine Boyle
gruesome, but at the same time it's a revenge fantasy of what could've happened, what could've happened if someone had killed Hitler. And so in the very beginning of the movie, he, there's a scene with Leonardo DiCaprio. A- also at the end, but there's a scene in the very beginning where it shows all of his films, and he has the famous flamethrower from Inglourious Basterds. And so if you're a Tarantino fan, you're like, "Wait, wait, wait. Which direction are we going in? Are we going in gruesome violence with no purpose?" Which I would argue Tarantino is always misunderstood in that way. "Or are we going in a, are we going in a different direction? A little more fantastical, a little more what could've happened?" Um, and so e- for those of us with, like, the eagle eye in the theater, I think, uh, I think we kinda, we kinda knew. You know, especially as you said, like, the family said, oh, it's, it's great, it's gonna be fine. We kinda knew, okay, this, this film is not gonna be nearly as bad, um, and Tarantino's gonna take us at a, at a different direction. But he did put that little Easter egg in there for us in, like, the first 10 minutes of the film.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So it's funny you bring that up, 'cause I, of course, totally missed that when I was watching the movie. Um, yeah, I just thought it was like, it was like a re- you know, he... So, so for people who haven't seen it, Le- Leonardo DiCaprio plays a sort of a, a Steve McQueen style movie star of 1960s, uh, named Rick Dalton, who's kind of, as the movie starts, his kind of career is imploding. Um, uh, he's trying to figure out how to kinda turn things around to stay relevant to the times, and it d- does, it shows these clips from his, his prior movies in the universe. Um, and when it... But I just figured it was just, like, a throwaway. Oh, yeah, a scene with the flamethrower, that's funny, ha ha. Um, like, and it didn't even for a minute occur to me. I mean, uh, uh, you know, it's just, oh, this, we're gonna, since we're gonna spoil it, we'll just say that the flamethrower plays a critical role. [laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
[laughs] A very critical role.
- MAMarc Andreessen
If you've ever been happier to see the flamethrower get taken out-
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yes
- MAMarc Andreessen
... um, than, uh, at, at, at, at, at, at, at the, at the end of that movie. But yeah, I mean, I, I just, I was, like, literally... I, I enjoyed the movie so much when I was watching it, but I, I did not know... I mean, I, I knew it had to be something amazing that I wasn't expecting in order to get the Tate family on board. But, like, I, I, I still was, I, I still was, like, sitting there in a state of dread throughout the entire movie, you know, still anticipating that he would somehow... Anyway, and so to spoil the movie, he, he, once, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, he, he basically, he basically tells you the story of the Manson cult in, of Hollywood at that time, and sort of how that all intertwined. And he takes it all the way up to the night of the murders, but then he tak- he takes a left turn, um, i- in the history, as he does, as an alternative history. And so it, it, and, and so the, the, the kid, the Manson cultists who, who in real life kill Sharon Tate, in the movie they, they, they go in the, they go in, they go in the, the house next door. Which is, which, which is Leo's house. Um, a- with, uh, with, and with, uh, with, with Leo's, uh, friend, uh, Brad Pitt, uh, and Brad Pitt's character. Uh, uh, by the way, I don't know if, uh, you... I don't know if you know this, uh, Katherine, I'm curious if, you know, the, the backstory of the Brad Pitt character is, it, it, it, he doesn't quite say this in the movie, but it explains a lot, which is basically Tarantino's conception of him is he's basically the most deadly man in the world at that time. So he's, he's like a, you know, he plays not just a war hero, but, like, a gray beret, like, you know, super highly decorated, you know, basically super soldier. Uh, but he's, he's become a Hollywood stuntman. Um, and so basically the, um, you know,
- 16:00 – 20:15
Cliff Booth, Sharon Tate, and the Genius of the Ending
- MAMarc Andreessen
the, the, the Manson killers basically walk exactly to the wrong house, 'cause number one, they're up against this guy who basically, like, you know, spent the preceding whatever, you know, 20 years, you know, killing people for America. Um, uh, you know, basically Captain America. And then, and then number two, it turns out Leo still had the flamethrower in his garage. Um, [laughs] -
- KBKatherine Boyle
Well, there's also, there's also the backstory that you're, you're not totally sure how good Cliff is. Like, there's a whole backstory of did he kill his wife? Um, which is actually in the film, and then also in sort of the backstory. But, like, there, he, he is, he is, he is, you know, a, a deadly, as you said, like, a very deadly person. Um, but that final scene, um, and it, it... Yeah, it, there's no way you can anticipate. Like, even if you knew, okay, maybe it's not gonna be as gruesome or there's gonna be some sort of, like, revenge fantasy, there's no way you can anticipate how genius, like, the run up it, to it is, and then also the final scene. Because there's this whole other thing that happens in the movie where you forget that you're watching a f- movie about the Mansons. Like, you forget that you're watching this, this horrific, like, what, what it's supposed to be, and there's a, there's [laughs] like a 30-minute scene, um, of Rick Dalton, who's the, who's sort of this, you know, um, aging. Like, he's losing his place in Hollywood. He, he sort of, you know, is, is, is sort of-A-a-a-at a, at a loss for why he's no longer powerful, right? Like, and, and, and he has this moment where he stars in this, like, kinda cheesy Western with this, like, 11-year-old girl, and it's like a movie within a movie, and it is, like, probably the best encapsulation of, like, what happens to actors in Hollywood. So you kind of lose track of the fact... It's like here's Shar- Sharon Tate, and she's at the Playboy Mansion. She's dancing. She's this new generation. But here's this old generation of, like, hyper-masculine figures who can't get work, and there's, there... It's just a genius movie within a movie where the little girl says to him, and it's probably, like, one of the most memorable lines. She's like, "That's the best acting I've ever seen in my whole life." And, I mean, it's like e- just even if they'd stopped the movie there, it would've been just as brilliant, right? But then it goes on to this other sequence where you're like, "Oh, yeah, we're watching... We're about to see the most gruesome, you know, possible, like, this..." I mean, and, and, you know, I wasn't alive in 1969, but I can imagine it's like if, you know, s- if Jennifer Lawr- if it happened to Jennifer Lawrence or if it happened to Margot Robie who, or Robbie, who's actually playing her, right, it, it, it would just be this horrific thing. Um, but you kinda forget 'cause there's all of these just beautiful, hilarious sequences that run up to it. You forget that you're watching a movie that's supposed to end in this horrific violence. Um, and of course, I'll, I'll let you continue, Marc, but it doesn't e- it ends in, it ends in a different type of horrific violence, but not female-on-female violence that characterized the, the Manson murders, which I think is, is another kind of subtext of, of the, of the film, um, is just how, how gory and violent the actual episode is. But you, you don't actually see that. So I'll let you continue, but-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... there, this whole other part of the Hollywood story that's really fascinating.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, no, that's, uh, that's exactly right. And by the way, uh, a pop quiz, Katherine. Uh, the, the, the, the, the little girl, the, the little girl, uh, actress, uh, who, who was she in re- who is that intended to be in real life?
- KBKatherine Boyle
I, I, I don't know, actually. Uh-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Jodi, Jodi Foster.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Oh, oh, is that... Oh, that's who she's supposed to be.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Yeah. She's ac-
- KBKatherine Boyle
Oh, oh, I didn't realize. Okay
- MAMarc Andreessen
... she's not under that name, but that's basically the char- the character's based, yeah, on Jodie Foster.
- KBKatherine Boyle
That makes sense.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Uh, and, and so, and, and, and just bringing it up 'cause, like, she re- was representative of, of new Hollywood. So, so, so, uh, 'cause so Jodie Foster o- was in that, in that era, was, like, a rising, busy child star. Uh, and then she ha- she had her breakout role in, uh, I think in, um, in Taxi Driver, um, you know, where she's just, like, you know, this, like, incredibly revelatory, you know, acting performance. Uh, uh, and, and so she's sort of representative of the new, of the new, of the so quote, unquote, "new Hollywood," um, with, uh, the much more naturalistic, like the actual na- naturalistic acting style that took over from the much more stylized style of the '50s and '60s. And so J-J- so, yeah, right, I was bringing it up because to, to your point, part of the story there is Rick Dalton, you know, basically trying to get out of basically making cliched, hackneyed genre stuff, right, where he just plays the same tough guy over and over again. Well, so, so the, the running joke up until that point is that Rick Dalton starts, st- started out his career as, like, a, a tough-guy movie star. Um, and then basically, uh, o- you know, over the years, like, that, that, that archetype was kinda fading in 1969, and so he was increasingly be, uh, being, uh, cast as the bad guy. Um, and then, uh, and the, you know, and the thing is, you know, the bad guy, you know, gets, like, punched, d- is not the guy who punches and knocks people out. He's the guy who gets punched and knocked out, and he's sort of on this downward slide. And he has absolutely no idea how to adapt
- 20:15 – 23:15
The Counterculture, Violence, and Comedy Collide
- MAMarc Andreessen
himself to this new world. And in fact, uh, and again, and the, the way the movie inter- the way this intersects with the other, the other part of the movie is, you know, uh, is literally with Roman Polanski and Sharon Tate move in next door, you know, to his character. And he, and, and literally he's like, "Oh my God, if I could just figure out a way to wa- get invited over for, like, a barbecue or something where I could just meet Roman Polanski," who's, like, the, you know, the, the, the, the leading kind of new Hollywood movie director of that time. "If I could just get cast in one of his movies, then I could stay relevant, you know, for the next decade." And he just had, like, absolutely n- there was just absolutely no reason for, like, Roman Polanski or Sharon Tate to give, to give this Rick Dalton character, you know, the time of day 'cause he just, he represented the past and they represented the future. Uh, until, of course, at the very end of the movie, uh, you know, Rick Dalton saves, you know, saves her life, um, and then, a- and then she, and then, you know, that's, that- that's the significance of, of him being invited over at the end of the movie is, is that sort, sort of his entree into new Hollywood, having basically been taught by Jodie Foster as an 11-year-old in actually how to act. [laughs] Right? So it, it basically, it comes together in such, in such, in such a genius way. Anyway, yeah, so, so, so basically, like, the, the, the sort of macro, the macro relevance of this, just to kinda restate the, the thesis is, you know, it, it, like, i- i- if the Manson murders were, were kind of where the cultural revolution in the 1960s went bad, then Once Upon a Time in Hollywood is sort of the, the, it's sort of the fantasy or the, the love letter to a different America in which that didn't happen, right? And, and, and they, and basically things kept going in, like, a, a much more, a mu- a much more positive direction. Um, but by putting on screen the alternate direction, m- my view is, like, he really highlights how bad it was [laughs] that that's not what happened. A- a- and so the, the, the tragedy of the Manson murders was not just the tragedy for the people who k- were killed and for their families, uh, and, you know, which was a profound tragedy. But the tragedy was, like, for basically for all of LA 'cause, like, LA, i- if you talk to people who were, who were around during that period, like, things got dark in LA, like, very quickly. Like, people, people, people were so freaked out by the Manson murders, like they didn't know how many other serial killers were running around. They didn't know how many other cults there were. They... Like, everybody all of a sudden had to, like, lock their doors. Like, people stopped going out. Like, it became, like... And then, and then by the way, this was the beginning of the heyday of the serial killer, you know, with Ted Bundy and, you know, like, it was the beginning of this, like, wave of these things where people got, like, really, really seriously freaked out. Um, and, and, and so that was the other. But, but then just generally in America that, you know, as I said, like, that was the beginning of the downward slide in the '70s. And so by, by making the what if [laughs] positive kind of-
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yeah
- MAMarc Andreessen
... uh, you know, all k- k- you know, counterfactual so clear, it sort, to me, it sort of highlights and illustrates in, in maybe the way that nothing else has been able to do kind of the darkness that actually played out in real life.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Totally. Totally. And, and, and like I, I went back and watched, uh, the beginning of the sequence 'cause it's actually a, a long sequence of violence. Uh, but what I remember so much, I read the reviews before not knowing, you know, they, they try to not have spoiler alerts, and critics were very divided. It was like, "This is so violent."This is extremely violent. And what, what's funny about seeing it in the theater, um, which was I'm so glad I saw it in the theater, is that the reaction from the audience, and these are, again, it's like if you've went opening weekend, these are people who, like, really wanted to see this
- 23:15 – 26:30
Why Audiences Laughed Through the Violence
- KBKatherine Boyle
movie or are Tarantino fans, is extreme laughter.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes.
- KBKatherine Boyle
As ... It is, you are laughing during the most violent sequence for 20 minutes. And what's, what's really funny about what's happening on screen too is that Cliff, Cliff, who's the, you know, the stuntman, um, the ... And, and again, this is a spoiler. Like, turn this off. I'm gonna go into detail. That he takes an edible, like, or LSD. I can't remember if it's an edible or-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Smokes, smokes, smokes an LSD cigarette.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yes. So, so right before, so he is, like, high as a kite when these guys come in, which is also, like, a funny part of it. And the, and the other part that you have to ... Like, Tarantino is so particular about details. And so the music that is playing when they come in is actually this, like, uh, psychedelic rock band. Like, and, and he shows the kind of transition of the '60s through music through the entire thing, which is really important. But that scene, he's listening to, um, uh, The Supremes, that Set Me Free, Why Don't You, Babe, right? Like, so it's, it's mo- this perfect moment of, like, set me free, and these guys come in. He's high, and he's like, "Is this, is this real?"
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
But, but Cliff, Cliff's response is, like, laughter. He's laughing at these women, right? And these women, you know, they have their, their knives. Like, they, they are ready to, to do, to do the deed, you know? And, um, and, and he's laughing. And I think it's in some ways it's ... You know, Tarantino always has sort of these, like, takes on, like, masculine violence and, and, you know, can, can you, can you, can you com- can you can take the power out of whatever situation in history by just, like, this extreme violence. And, like, you know it's about to happen, and there's, like a ... I, I won't ruin the pit bull part, but, like, there is something-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm
- KBKatherine Boyle
... where it's-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Let's ruin it. Let's ruin it. We're ruining it.
- KBKatherine Boyle
No, no. Kind of like he, he sicks his pit bull on, on these women, right? But it, but the ... What, what, what ... Watching it again, you're like, "This is ..." It's fascinating because if, if the Mansons had been met with laughter, right? Like, instead they were met with these are the most evil ... They're, they're, you know, they're, they're, they're taken by the devil, right? Like, they were met with fear. And, and to Marc's point, like, that set off serial killers. Like, it gave power to this extraordinary evil for, for decades. And I think the point of it is, like, what if Cliff, the most masculine, deadly man [laughs] in the room, had just been high and laughed and, like, you know, sicked his pit bull on, on, on these, on these women who, you know, are kind of silly and high themselves? And, like, the whole thing had become a comedy, which it turns into, like, 20 minutes of just sheer hilarity. Like, just absolute hilarity, even though it's the most violent thing you've probably seen in the last several years.
- MAMarc Andreessen
He, he, he ... The, the, the Brad Pitt character beats a hippie to death with a telephone. And it's just the funniest thing you've ever s-
- KBKatherine Boyle
It's like ... It's, it's ... Yeah. It's like a ... And, and, and the flamethrower shows up, right? Like, I mean, it's, it is very ... You could not conceive of the type of violence. It, it meets, it meets the most horrific violence that we know is coming, right? And, like, that's the backstory to this too, is, like, you know what really happened. So you have this weird anthropological-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... response of you know what actually happened, and it's so tragic.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- KBKatherine Boyle
But I think it was women on ... You know, I always think it's interesting that it was, like, the Manson Family, right? They called themselves family. It was a perversion of the family, and they actually killed a woman who was eight months pregnant, starting a family. So it's like this horrific all ... That's a whole, horror, whole other narrative to this. But, like, the fact that it's met with even more
- 26:30 – 29:45
What Tarantino Says About America
- KBKatherine Boyle
extreme violence, and, and at the time, it was during, you know, it was during Me Too as well, so it was violence against women.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- KBKatherine Boyle
But of course, everyone wants that violence to happen because you don't want the alternative to happen. So it, it's this very strange, um, movie-going experience, uh, that is both delightful but also, like, you know, y- a lot of mixed emotions that I think, you know, probably ... That's why I think critics were so divided on it. Um, I loved it, but that's why I think critics were divided on it.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. And then if you, if you kinda telescope out, you know, one, one notch, it's, it's, it ... Katherine, your point, it's like, it's like the ultimate square in the form of Rick Dalton, who's like, you know, still putting Bro cream in his hair and trying to be, like, a, you know, kinda James Dean tough guy, you know, you know, when that's not what the world wants. Um, and then, uh, yeah, and then, you know, basically like I said, you know, Captain America, like, an icon of the American military. You know, at the time that ... You know, by the way, at the time of V- of Vietnam, in which, you know, the military was, you know, not, was, you know, was not viewed with the level of respect that, that American culture has for it today. You know, the, the, the fact that those two, you know, end up basically beating and, and roasting a bunch of hippies to death at, [laughs] at the height of the counterculture, [laughs] it's an incredibly crowd-pleasing movie. And the, as you said, it kinda happened at sort of the, uh, sort of, you know, very, very close to peak woke, um, kinda during our cultural revolution of the last decade. Like, it, it's, it's ... I, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't, I don't know if you ... I don't know if this properly characterized as, like, a reactionary movie, but it, it, it, it definitely not ... It was definitely not the arc, the moral arc of, of, of, of other attempts at arc during that time period.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Totally. Totally. And, and, and just even the, the final scene of, as you said, him getting invited over, and her sort of being blissfully unaware this happens. I mean, that's all-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... magical of it. Like, she had no idea that someone-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... this happens. Um, and you see, like, the camera sort of pan up, and it's like this is ... Like, it, it just genuinely feels like this is, you know, i- in the same way-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... that Inglourious Basterds was a revenge drama of what could have possibly happened, this is also like the once upon a time in America story, like what could have happened. Um, and it, and it was a weird movie-going experience in 2019 to be surrounded by people who were laughing, who loved it, you know? It, it, it, it kind of went against everything you were reading in the news, which is that, like, you know, no, no one agrees with, with sort of [laughs] this, this alternative history. I mean, it was ... It's just a brilliant film, um, that, that ... Yeah, I'm excited there's a sequel coming, right, Marc?
- MAMarc Andreessen
There is indeed. There is a, there is indeed, which is going to be... Uh, uh, and let me also say, number one, there's a sequel coming, which, you know, is gonna be just incredible I'm sure. Uh, but also, um, there was a, there, the, the [laughs] Tarantino is so funny. So, uh, uh, Ka- you guys may both ... or do you not remember this? But back before the internet, and even back before, like, DVDs or video rentals, if, if you, like, if you, if you didn't see a movie when it was in the theater, like, you didn't see itAnd like it might show up on TV like two years later, but they would have cut all the good parts out and they would have, you know, stuck in all the commercials. Um, and so you like basically had one shot to see a movie in the theater, and then if you wanted to see it again and it was out of theater, you couldn't. And so there was this, there was this genre of paperback novelizations, um, of, of movies. And so what you would do is you would buy the paperback novelization, and then you could read that as many times as you want. So, you know, like I had a shelf of these things when I was a kid, you know, Star Wars and all these things. You know, you know, read them all like 14 times. Um, and, and so anyway, so Tarantino being, you know, sort of a child of this era, you know, like, like I am, um, Tarantino actually wrote a paperback novelization of the movie Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, and he specifically wrote it as a paperback novelization. Uh, and, and so it came out in paperback. Um,
- 29:45 – 33:10
From Once Upon a Time to Tropic Thunder
- MAMarc Andreessen
uh, and, I mean, very much as an homage to this, but of course being Tarantino, it's, it actually turns out, of course, it's not just a paperback novelization. It turns out it's like an entirely new novel. Um, and so, and, and, and it's actually funny because it doesn't... It, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, the novel is set in the same world of the movie and has, and, and, and, and goes much deeper into the themes of the movie. But like he doesn't even get, he doesn't care at all about like having the plot of the movie actually in the novel, and so he just throws away right up front in the novel, "Oh, yeah, yeah, and then Rick Dal- Rick Dalton like roasts a bunch of hippies, you know, in his swimming pool that night," right? So like it, it's like the plot's not the point for, for the novelization. So the, the novelization I think, I think is a, is a... Very few people have read it, you know, kind of despite, by virtue of how he, how he came out with it, I think, 'cause I, I think people didn't know what to make of like literally a paperback novelization in like 2022 or whenever it came out. Uh, but I think it has, he has a reasonable claim on being a great American novel, um, be- because... And, and the reason specifically, uh, Kev, I think you'd enjoy it a lot because it, it just, it goes much deeper into all the themes of the, you know, that we're talking about. And so and like it goes really deep into the transformation of Hollywood that was happening at that time. You know, it goes really deep into the making, you know, the s- the, the western show that happens inside the movie, which is actually a real show called Lancer. Uh, it goes ac- it was actually a, a real show with, with that, you know, with that setup and with those actors. Um, and it goes much deeper into, into all the characters, and it goes deeper into the Manson family. Uh, and so it's, um, uh, yeah, it's really amazing. And by the way, I, I should also say, um, uh, yeah, yeah, the, the mo- the movie does have a scene in which it is left ambiguous as to whether or not Cliff Booth, uh, killed his wife. Uh, by the way, let me just say, uh, the wife played by Rebecca De Mornay, um, who just like, I think she's in the movie for like 30 seconds, and she almost steals the movie. Like, she's just hysterically funny, and she plays like the meanest like wife in the world. She's just like hectoring and like screaming at Brad Pitt. And they're literally on a fishing boat. Brad Pitt has a spear gun in his lap, um, and it, it sort of... And in the movie it's, it's like set up as basically, you know, there was this spear gun accident, um, you know, following this argument, and, and did Br- did, did, did Brad Pitt actually, actually deliberately kill his wife or not? Um, and of course, in the novelization it makes very clear, yes, he, he in fact, yes, he-
- SPSpeaker
[laughs] Yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
I think it's, I for- I think it's in the, the, I think it's in the novel. I think it's like, yes, Brad Pitt definitely killed his wife and got away or Cliff Booth killed his wife and got away with it. Um, and then I think in the, I think, I think he says in the novel, he says, "And that was one of the three times that Cliff Booth committed murder and got away with it."
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
So anyway, anyway, for those of you who've only seen the movie, it turn, it turns, it turns out the Cliff Booth character actually, yes, uh, uh, has a real dark side and, and yes, the, the hippies picked the wrong house, uh, stum- to stumble into.
- SPSpeaker
And, and so is the... We were talking offline about how it's, you know, there's some relevance to today. Is, is the connection that, you know, the 2010s to, to some people was, is seen as a sort of glorious march towards, uh, you know, p- progress and then, you know, whether it's the 2020 Floyd riots or more recently the Luigi, you know, Mangione murder or, or the murder of Charlie Kirk, there's kind of this moment of, "Oh, oh my God," [laughs] "that this thing has gone off the..." Is that, is that kind of the-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So I would say when whichever side of the political and social spectrum you're on, like the world that we live in today is a much darker version of what everybody thought [laughs] we were gonna be living in. I mean, like, so for people who are like 100% on board with like the social ... So let's back up a second, Erik, to your point. So like I think there's a very direct analogy of, let's call it 1964 to 1972 or something, um, with the re-election of Richard Nixon. Um, like that cultural revolution that happened during the '60s, kind of the hippie, Vietnam, you know, kind of revolution, um, I, I think the, the, what we, what we
- 33:10 – 36:30
Tropic Thunder: The Ultimate Hollywood Satire
- MAMarc Andreessen
in America have been through in the last decade is, is sort of a- another version of that. Like I think we, we went through our version of that. It started around, uh, I would date it to like 2013, 2014, and then, you know, it basically, that era sort of ended November, November, November 2024. You know, obviously, if you're on the right, you're like, "Oh my God, thank God that's over." Um, and you know, the, the, the world can move on. If you're on the left, of course, you're like, "Oh my God, what just happened? How did, you know, how did the revolution, the revolution go so bad?" Th- that is precisely what happened at the, at the end of the revolution in the 1960s, and, and specifically, I mentioned 1972. So Richard Nixon was elected president in 1968, and it was like a hard-fought race and very dramatic in the voter right, but then he was reelected in 1972 in a landslide. Like I usually when it's together, it was like a 49-state landslide or some crazy thing. Like, it was just like an overwhelming landslide. So it's like the American people basically rose up and, and basically said, "Yeah, no more of this. It's over." Um, and, and, and so we, we, you know, we, we, I mean, the, the, the echoes are just like profound, uh, of, of, of how this played out and, you know, and they're echoes, right? It's, it's not exactly comparable. You know, and Iraq and Vietnam, you know, play different roles and so forth, and the economy, you know, has developed in different ways and, you know, Trump and Nixon are different people and so forth, but, and the social movements are different. Uh, uh, you know, and, and times have changed, but still, like, there, there, there was, there was a cultural revolution. It was, you know, either glorious or terrible for some period of time, and then it ended, right? It was just like a sequence of events happened where just like it was over, and you're out the other side, and you're in a new world. Um, and, and, and, and, and, and then I, I would argue like that's exactly what, that, that's exactly the process that kicked off in '69 with the Manson murders and then sort of bookended with '72 with Nixon's reelection and then kind of the slide into the 1970s and then ultimately the 1980s, like that transformation. And then I, I would argue like that, that's pres- precisely the same kind of transition that we're going through right now. Um, and I, I think it's either, it's either thrilling or horrifying people in a very similar way, um, that the, that the end of the '60s, uh, uh, either thrilled or horrified people. Yeah, Katherine, would, would you agree with that?
- SPSpeaker
I would. I would. Um, and I, I also, since you mentioned Vietnam, I, I wanna transition to the best Vietnam War film
- KBKatherine Boyle
Ever made
- MAMarc Andreessen
Okay, this is, this, that, this is, e- everything we've said up until now is milquetoast as compared to the extremely controversial claim that Katherine's about to make. Please go for it.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Uh, but it is, it is, it is by far the best Vietnam War film ever made. Um, and of course it incorporates every Vietnam War film every e- ever made, incl- including [laughs] Deer Hunter, Full Metal Jacket, um, you know, Once, uh, or, or, um, Born on the Fourth of July, Apocalypse Now. The best Vietnam War film ever made is Tropic Thunder. Uh, but it also happens to be one of the best films about Hollywood. Um, actually, uh, our, I would actually say that Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, while it is incredible film, is more about America, but Tropic Thunder is also about America in different [laughs] ways and reveals a lot about America, but is, is by far the best Hollywood film ever made. Uh, I'll let Marc talk about why that is. Um, but-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Well, so let's date, let's always date it. Tropic Thunder was what year?
- KBKatherine Boyle
It was 2008, which is actually very important, um-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... because I think one of the things that people forget is that, um, 2008 was also the year where we had a, a POW from the Vietnam War running for office against the first Black president in history. And that is a very important context for all of the themes dealt with inside of Tropic Thunder, which of course is a comedy. Um, it's a satire, but it satirizes everything in the kind of before times 2008. Um, but I think that is a very
- 36:30 – 40:50
Robert Downey Jr. in Blackface
- KBKatherine Boyle
important subtext to it came out during an election year where those two [laughs] themes were on display. Um, but I'll, I'll let Marc get into the summary, um, since it's also one of his favorite films.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Well, it, it is, although I, I, I'm gonna, I'm gonna defer... It, it, so because I, you know, I think it's a, I think it's a, a historically fun, you know, it's maybe the funniest movie, funniest Hollywood movie in the last 25 years or something. Like, it's just, it's just, like, an incredibly entertaining movie. Um, and just for people to just have a sense of, like, how much times have changed, like, the most... I mean, there's many amazing things about it, but one of the most amazing things about it is, you know, the g- the great actor, Robert Downey Jr., uh, uh, plays the entire movie in blackface.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
A- a- and not only plays the entire movie in blackface, like, I would say extraordinarily commits for the bit. Um- [laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yes, he's a method actor playing a method actor.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So, yeah, so-
- KBKatherine Boyle
The entire movie in method playing another method actor, you know, playing an actor in, in, in a type of blackface. Um, again, which, which to your point on, on, um, Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, when the film was first announced, this was known that, that Robert Downey Jr. was, was going to be playing an actor in blackface. And as you can imagine, it was the same thing that happened with Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, where it was like, like, the, you know... Th- in the same way that the, the Tate family was terrified of what would happen in the film, um, there was a whole kind of, you know, terror of what, what is gonna ha... Like, Robert Downey Jr.? Like, like, like, he's destroying his career. Like, who does Ben Stiller think he is doing this movie, right? Like, no one actually knew the backstory or how it would be satirizing Hollywood actors who will go through any extreme length to win an Oscar. Um, but, but when you get into the film, it is handled so beautifully and delicately. And actually I was, I was reading, um, I was reading about sort of how they handled it, um, when they were producing it, which was that they invited, you know, a number of members of the NAACP. They invited, you know, a number of different, like, very thoughtful critics and said, "You have to see this film first and see..." And it was, again, the same sort of thing where it's like everyone saw it first and they said, "Don't worry, it's perfect," right? "It's hilarious." Um, and so I'll let you continue, but it, like, they handled it in a way-
- SPSpeaker
Wait, wait. Did, did they have to apologize in the 2010s? I remember Jimmy Kimmel had to apologize for blackface, uh, y- or, or, or one of these people. Or did they get away with it?
- KBKatherine Boyle
Interesting point. So they didn't... So when it came out, it was so clearly satirizing, um, white actors who were trying to win an Oscar, right? Like, so it was clearly satirizing everyone. It, it was not, it was, you know, it, it, it was, it was sort of universally beloved, so much so that, that Robert Downey Jr. was nominated for an Oscar, which is a whole other backstory to how they made that happen because it was kind of a cont- [laughs] continuation of the movie that they, as a joke, petitioned the Academy, you know. It said, "For your consideration," and the Academy actually nominated him for an Oscar for the role. So it was so, it was so, like, beloved, like, what he did and how, how, how brilliant the role was that no one cared. But I believe it was, like, 2017 or 2018 when this sort of, like, new crop of young people came through journalism and said, like, "This is horrible." They, they tried to sort of cancel him-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Exactly
- KBKatherine Boyle
... you might know Marc better if, how he handled it, but, like, it, it clearly, they did not cancel Robert Downey Jr. for doing a satirization of, of the role he played.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So just to, just to fill this in, and then we- we'll get to the, I wanna get to Katherine, the, the, the, your, the, the Vietnam aspects of this, but, uh, Vietnam War movie aspects to this. Uh, but yeah, so just specifically what happened was, correct me if I have this wrong, um, Robert Downey Jr., a white American actor, plays a white Australian actor, um, who is a method actor, who I think was sort of loosely inspired by Daniel Day-Lewis as sort of a, you know, sort of that, that kind, that kind of sort of, you know, super elite. You know, there, there's a couple scenes where you see D- where you see, [laughs] where you see Robert out of blackface, [laughs] but, but dressed up with as, uh, dressed up as the, uh, as the Australian actor who, like, has, like, I forget what, it's, like, translucent green eyes or something, uh, has this very striking, striking look and, like, this very plummy Australian accent. Um, and so it's a white American actor in real life playing a white Australian actor playing a Southern Black man in blackface [laughs] for the entire movie. On top of that, I believe Do- Do- uh, Ro- Robert Downey often, often improvises, uh, throughout, throughout, throughout his movies, and I, I think a fair amount of the, uh, uh, I think a fair am- a fair amount of it, the portrayal, uh, was, was, was, uh, was him on, on the spur of the moment which is, which is, you know, fairly incredible, uh, uh, when you see it, uh, 'cause he, he fully, fully inhabits the world. And then of course he's, he's actually in the movie, he's actually, he's in the, in, you know, in, in, in the movie, inside the movie, he's in this, he's in a platoon with, of course, an actual Black guy [laughs]
- 40:50 – 44:30
Booty Sweat, Les Grossman, and the Genius of the Marketing
- MAMarc Andreessen
who's a young Black actor whose name I can't recall, but he just, like, there's a fresh having this-
- KBKatherine Boyle
It was such a thrill to him. He's a brill- it's a brilliant, like, the way they play off each other is brilliant. His name in the film is Alpa Chino, but Alpa Chino-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Alpa Chino. He's a rapper
- KBKatherine Boyle
... rapper.
- MAMarc Andreessen
He's a, he's a rapper who becomes an actor. [laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yes, it, and, and there's a whole other-
- MAMarc Andreessen
It shows-
- KBKatherine Boyle
So a whole other-
- MAMarc Andreessen
It shows up when-Go ahead, sorry
- KBKatherine Boyle
Oh, no, no, no. I was gonna say there's a whole other through line there of his, his role because I think one of the things that everyone remembers of the film is they have the fake, um, trailers before the film starts.
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
And he is Al Pacino, the rapper, and he's selling a drink that he calls Booty Sweat.
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
Uh, and, and [laughs] what's so funny about like how brilliant this film is because it not only like, not only do they satirize Hollywood in the film, they were like the first Barbenheimer. Like, what they did-
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
... they, they're like, "We're gonna market this in so many funny ways." They did incredible things before and after the film, but one of the things that the, the, that they did was they made Booty Sweat into an actual drink-
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
... and marketed it through the entire Oscar petition. Like, they, they went so far. I mean, the only film that's done this as, as exceptional as Tropic Thunder was, was Barbie. Um, but they, th- they, they, they figured out how to turn every aspect of this film into a, into marketing genius. The other smart thing that they did, by the way, the [laughs] one of the actors that, that Ben Stiller p- or Ben Stiller plays this guy named Tugg Speedman, who is based on a dumb Tom Cruise. His name is Tugg Speedman, right? Like, where did they get that name? It's Tom Cruise, but they also have Tom Cruise in the movie as, as the producer who's based on Harvey Weinstein, uh, Les, Les... I, I can't remember his-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Les what? Les Grossman.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Les Grossman, yes. Um, and so but they didn't want anyone to know Tom Cruise was in the film. So they actually sued anyone, any of the paparazzi who took pictures of him before, because they wanted people to come to the theater and not know that Tom Cruise was in it. And of course, he, like, wrote his entire role. Like, uh, like he, he, uh, to, to your point in improv, like, he improvised that entire role and wrote it. Like, it was sort of hi- Tom Cruise's brainchild. I think they originally offered him something else, and he's like, "No, no, no. I, I wanna play Harvey [laughs] Weinstein." And it is genius, but they did so many things to make sure that the entire sort of cult of the movie outside of the movie was, like, Hollywood produced, um, where you... Uh, to, to, to Marc's point, you have this, you know, method actor playing a method actor who is trying to get an Oscar through his method acting, who ultimately ends up getting nominated for the Oscar, losing to Heath Ledger the, the year that Ledger died posthumously, um, and when it was awarded to him. But it, it's like they, they could not have... The, it is a 20-year project. That's the other, that's the other very interesting thing about this was, like, Ben Stiller's been working on this since the '80s, and it was just that year where they were finally able to get it made, and it is this brilliant commentary on all of Hollywood. And we can get into the Vietnam stuff, too, because I think it's also a commentary on that. But it's, it's, it is the best Hollywood film ever made, even in the fact that they were able to successfully sway the Oscars.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right. Well, it was also, Katherine, to your point, it was also the reset of the Tom Cruise image issues at the time. 'Cause th- this was after the sort of run of controversy around him and Scientology and his personal life and all those things. And there, there was, uh, so this run of very bad publicity, and a lot of people in the industry were worried that he was not gonna be a bankable movie star anymore. And I, I think th- this role in this movie was basically his recovery from that which, uh, which was pulled off absolutely perfectly. And of course, he then went on to be an even bigger movie star than before.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Totally.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah, so it's a great career resurrection in the, in the, in the middle of this, yeah. And then, yeah, just in, just in terms of, like, how, how much times have changed or, you know, as, as, as, as somebody once said, the, the past is a, is a foreign planet or, uh, um, or another country, um, uh, is, yeah, like you had, you had an American actor being nominated for an Oscar for, for a character performed in black,
- 44:30 – 48:20
Satire, Offense, and How the Film Aged
- MAMarc Andreessen
blackface in 2008.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Oh, my.
- MAMarc Andreessen
D- directed by a H- Hollywood filmmaker who's obviously a genius, but, you know, within 10 years was like he, you know, Ben, Ben Stiller subsequently became one of the wokest Hollywood figures, uh, you know, in the, in the years that followed. Like, you know, all, all through the last decade, like, Ben Stiller has been like, you know, to, you know, to, to the left of Che Guevara on-
- KBKatherine Boyle
Wow
- MAMarc Andreessen
... like every social and political issue. And so and I, I, I, you know, I, I, I don't know. Uh, yeah, I've, I've never met him. I've a great admirer of his art, but like I wonder how much of his shift to the far left, uh, uh, politically and socially was a, was a reaction to having made this movie.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Well, well, and the other thing is, I mean, everyone focuses on Robert Downey Jr., but there are, like, at least four other untouchable things that happen in that film. Um, so the, the disability advocates... Actually, when the film came out, the, the-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... the, the people who were most upset in 2008 were the disability advocates, um, because of the, um, commentary on what's... I, I believe it's commentary-
- MAMarc Andreessen
What's Eating-
- KBKatherine Boyle
... on What's Eating Gilbert Grape, right? Never like... I'll just say it.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Well, and Forrest, Forrest Gump and Forrest Gump.
- KBKatherine Boyle
And Forrest Gump, yes, yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
And, and Rain Man and Rain Man. But yeah, um, uh, so, um, uh, uh, Simple Jack.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Simple Jack, yes. So the, the, the famous line that is said is, and, and again, I'm, I'm quoting the film-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... "Never go full retard."
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Um, which was okay to say in 2008, except for the disability advocates, um, who were, who were very upset about it. And of course, like, they were sort of on the fringe in 2008, but that was actually the thing that, that Ben Stiller had to apologize for because they, they didn't, they didn't test the film on Simple Jack. But it was commentary-
- MAMarc Andreessen
[laughs]
- KBKatherine Boyle
... from, from Robert Downey Jr. in blackface saying, "Everybody knows," and then saying the line, right? Because, 'cause, 'cause Tugg Speedman doesn't play it as he should. Um, he, he, he does the full Leo DiCaprio, What, What's Eating Gilbert Grape sort of like, you know, fu- full on, right? He does Rainmaker. But there's two other things that happen. Um, so the, the other thing that I think people didn't realize is that bec... It, it is so much of a commentary on Vietnam War film-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm
- KBKatherine Boyle
... because a lot of Vietnam War memoirs in later years have been proven to be completely disingenuous, right? So it's like people who said they went to Vietnam didn't go to Vietnam, and so in the storyline in the film, the guy whose memoir Tropic Thunder the movie is actually based on-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right
- KBKatherine Boyle
... is a f- is a member of the Coast Guard who never got sent to Vietnam, who worked for the sanitation department, right? So like the... And that's like a whole theme in the movie, and so there's this like brilliant commentary also on, like, you know, veterans' issues, and I think some veterans groups were upset about it. There were also people who were very upset with, um, Tom Cruise's portrayal.Um, and it was, you know, it was before we kind of all knew who he was portraying and everything, but there were people who were very upset that they felt that that was a stereotype. So, like, pretty much every character, like, there was, there was people who were... And again-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Sure
- KBKatherine Boyle
... these were fringes. It wasn't, like, mass commentary on this, but they're, like, they managed to insult, like, every protected group [laughs] uh, in a way that, like ev- like, everyone kind of was like, "Well, yeah, but it's, it's satire, right?" So it, it was a totally different time in America, but it wasn't just, um, you know, focus on, on race relations. I mean, it was on, you know, we had a V- again, we had a Vietnam POW running for president that year.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Okay.
- KBKatherine Boyle
And, and, um, and basically a mockery, like, the greatest mockery of Vietnam film ever made. So i- in some ways, it's like this film was just, like, so perfectly timed for the era we were living in.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Well, we still have to this day, uh, w- let's not name names on, on a, on a w- what's otherwise a fun, a fun podcast, but there, there are sitting United States politicians in, in serious offices who, like, literally faked Vietnam War records.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yep.
- 48:20 – 53:45
Oppenheimer: Nolan’s Epic and Its Moral Dilemma
- KBKatherine Boyle
It's so brilliant, and the levels of, of commentary, um, just are, are remarkable to this day.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes, yes. And so, yes, yes. Cute, yes. Yeah, yeah, that would be just like... So yeah, a- a- and maybe this is, it bookends the, uh, the, the previous, previous conversation of just, like, yes, this is clearly made bef- before the culture, before our version of the Cultural Revolution. Um, and so it's, it's, it's like a, it's like, it's like an ancient artifact. Um, uh, um, y- like, I would say only now are we reemerging into a world in which a movie like that could be made. Like, for a movie like that for the last probably, what, 13 years or something would've been totally off limits. Um, and, and we're coming out into a world now where movies like that can get made again.
- SPSpeaker
Yeah. Jimmy Kimmel's not gonna bring back The Man Show, uh, [laughs] or return to his, uh, his, uh, his roots. Um-
- MAMarc Andreessen
For people who follow, yes, for people who don't get the reference, for anybody who followed the recent Jimmy Kimmel, uh, sort of affair and all of the outrage, uh, it is worth going on YouTube and just, yeah, looking at clips from a, uh, Jimmy Kimmel show 20 years ago, which was literally called The Man Show.
- SPSpeaker
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, and, uh, to, just to get a sense of the, uh, the, the long and twist- the long and twisty road that, uh, some of our, uh, some of our highest, uh, most famous public figures, uh, have followed.
- KBKatherine Boyle
And also a tale of, a tale of two comedians, right? Because it's him and, and Adam Corolla, right? And it's like their, their careers have detoured dramatically [laughs] since-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah
- KBKatherine Boyle
... the show.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes, that's right.
- SPSpeaker
Two other films we wanted to discuss, uh, were Oppenheimer and Fight Club.
- MAMarc Andreessen
So let's start with, let's start with, let's start with Oppenheimer, just 'cause it's, it's more, it's, it's more recent. So I, I, I will make the case, uh, so I'm a, I'm a, you know, enormous Christopher Nolan fan. I've seen all his movies. I love all his movies. I, I think they're d- really tremendous. Um, you know, I, I think that, I, uh, you know, uh, t- I say this, I'm, I think Tenet is one of the best movies I've ever seen. Um, and like I, I, I, I sat through Tenet with a giant smile on my face the entire movie. Like, I just thought that was just, like, absolute magic. Obviously, I loved Inception. Uh, I've loved many of his movies. Um, uh, uh, but I think Oppenheimer was, like, an incredibly well-made movie, um, and had, you know, incredible performances and, and was, was, like, you know, put together really well. It was, you know, tremendously interesting to watch. I, I, I, I, I will argue that it did not re- reach our level of capital A art. Uh, I think it, it actually quite badly fell short, um, on sort of, uh, I would say morality and, um, and, uh, and, and ultimately in, in, in, in importance, uh, to our culture. But, uh, yeah, I mean, let me... I'm be happy to give my feel on that, but let me just start by saying, Kat- Katherine, would, just out of the gate, would you agree with me on that? Or do, would you like to, would you like to take the, would you like to take the pro side that Oppenheimer was greater?
- KBKatherine Boyle
No, I, I, I agree with you, but I probably, I probably concur, like, I probably have different reasons, um, than you as to why I didn't think it worked. Like, and I should, I should preface it with, uh, like, I h- I had hyped this movie so much, where my expectations might have been so ridiculously high that when I finally saw it, I was like, "Meh." But I do think it's interesting, Robert Downey Jr. was all... He won the Academy Award finally for Oppenheimer. He deserved it for Tropic Thunder. I- he was fantastic in the movie, but I will say he deserved it for Tropic Thunder, and if not for Heath Ledger, he would've won it for Tropic Thunder, and I feel like that, that would've been really the role he should've won it for, but he was fantastic in Oppenheimer as well. So, uh, to your point, like, there, there were, there were many good, uh, performances. My, my sort of criticism is probably different than yours, but it probably has a lot more to do with, like, the actual sort of storytelling and filmmaking than the actual, um, content of, of the, of the work.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Okay, got it. Yeah, so I, 'cause I would say, uh, so, uh, for people who haven't seen it, we're gonna spoil it. So, uh, Robert, Robert, Robert Downey plays, uh, uh, a, a real-life guy named, uh, Lewis Strauss, uh, who was a, um, he was a, uh, very high-ranking, like, sort of important person of the, of the, of the 1950s, 1960s in the government, um, and, uh, ended up... Well, I forget the exact role, but basically ended up overseeing, um, uh, uh, Oppenheimer having his security clearance stripped and, and basically being booted out of the, out of the military industrial complex after, after, you know, basically leading the creation of the atomic bomb. Um, uh, and the movie, the movie kind of goes through that whole story. Um, uh, and, you know, it's, it's a fantastic performance. All the, all, I mean, look, all the performances in the, in the movie were fantastic. Uh, uh, Cillian Murphy was just outstanding as Oppenheimer. And, and then, uh, was it Benny, I think it's Benny Safdie, one of the Safdie brothers, uh, played, um, Edward Teller, um, and like, a- almost just stole the movie just with that portrayal. Um, and again, a, you know, a real person, the creator, the later the creator of the hydrogen bomb. He's a, he's a... Anyway, so fantastic performances, fantastic direction. Um, I, I will argue, but my, my critique of the movie though, it, it involves the following claim, which is that Lewis Strauss is actually the hero of the movie.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yes. May- may- maybe go into that history so people understand, um, 'cause that is definitely not the takeaway from the film.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yes, that is not what the film intended. Uh, uh, you know, the film intended, I think the film intended, see if Katherine would agree with this, the film intended to contrast basically a great man, Oppenheimer, to basically a, um, an, an asp- an aspirant to greatness who, you know, fell badly short in the, in the Lewis Strauss character, who sort of brought the great man low, and in a, in a funda- fundamentally unfair way. And then it sort of, the movie sort of sets up, uh, both, uh, uh, Oppenheimer and actually also specifically Albert Einstein as sort of the key moral authorities, um, of, uh, of the era with respect to the use of nuclear weapons.Both, both claims of which I believe are like deeply incorrect, um, on substance. Um, and, and this is my critique of the- So my critique of the movie is not in its execution or any of the performances. My critique is the morality of the movie, I think is very badly upside down. Um, and it- and it's upside down in a way that kind of flatters our current politics, but like is very badly upside down in terms of what actually happened at the time. Um, and so the, the movie basically tells the story, of course, Robert Oppenheimer, the, the sort of person who ran the, the Manhattan Project, uh, created the atomic bomb, which was then, you know, at least historically gets credit for, you know, helping to end World War II. You know, when, when, when the US dropped, dropped, dropped... You know, the only, only two uses
- 53:45 – 1:03:00
Was Oppenheimer the Hero or the Traitor?
- MAMarc Andreessen
of the atomic, uh, bomb in wartime, you know, to date were, you know, the US dropped an, dropped a bomb on, uh, Japan twice in, in 1945. And, you know, and, and there, you know, there's even still to this day debate about this. But, you know, gen- general, generally accepted history, I think is that, that, you know, that ended the, the, the Pacific theater, uh, conflict, you know, sooner than it would have. It, it prevented the need for a land invasion of Japan, you know, you know, conceivably, you know, saved like a million lives or something like that. Uh, now by the way, it was dropping the atomic bomb on two civilian cities, right? [laughs] So, so again, you know, like the morality of the time was, you know, quite a bit different than, you know, than, than, than maybe ours today. But, but anyway, so that, that, that's, that's kinda the history of it. And then, you know, famously the Manhattan Project was sort of this assembly of, of sort of the finest minds, uh, in America. Men, many of whom by the way were, you know, refugee, you know, uh, not, not Oppen- I'm-- Oppenheimer's character actually is a, is a play, is a in, in the movie, in, in reality and in the movie is German Jewish whose fam- you know, who, whose family had arrived much earlier. Um, and but then a lot of the other key members of the, uh, Manhattan Project, you know, kind of in one of the great twists of irony were, uh, Hungarian Jewish refugees from, you know, from, from basically the Nazi kinda rampage through Europe, you know, who came to the US and, and, and basically, uh, you know, helped arm, arm up the US of which Edward Teller was an example of that. Um, and so anyway, so the movie tells this, you know, kind of amazing story of, of, of the Manhattan Project, but specifically the arc of, of, Oppenheimer. Um, I, I guess I'd say the, the, the, the, the conventional... Let me back up for a sec. I think the first half of the movie, I think is actually quite historically grounded and I think has like I, I, like I at least I agreed with his interpretation of history, and so it is the following. So the first half, and I think the movie's maybe a little bit schizophrenic, and I should give it a little bit more credit than I, than I was. But like the first half of the movie is actually a, it's one of the only recreations on film of what American elite culture and society and American, um, uh, research establishment of kind of the leading experts of the time, the 1920s and '30s, like how thoroughly saturated that, that world was communist. Um, and, and specifically it sort of recreates, uh, you know, this sort of the, the, there, there's actually, there's actually a joke in the movie. There's a line in the movie that sort of, one of these, one of these jokes is not really a joke, which is the joke is, you know, 'cause the, there, a lot of the movie takes place is, is set up as at UC Berkeley. Um, and, uh, there's sort of a, a, a joke, a joke in the movie which is like, you know, well, you know, you know, it's so and so on the Berkeley faculty, you know, is a communist, and somebody else will says, "Yes, like half the Berkeley faculty are communists." Like every, like everybody knows that. Like it's just completely taken for granted. And of course, you know, the, the politics of that aside, the issue becomes, okay, now they're working on a classified weapons program. Um, you know, the US is v- you know, is kind of variously at odds with not just Germany but also with Soviet Russia. Um, and you know, there's this very big concern, you know, we're, we're, you know, the, the, this effort is, is, is inventing this, you know, super weapon. Uh, and there was a, you know, very high degree of concern that the, the secrets of the, of the atomic bomb were gonna, you know, just walk their way out the, out the door from Los Alamos and were gonna end up in, you know, bad people's hands. You know, and one fear obviously was they, they'd end up in Hitler's hands, but another fear was they would end up in, you know, Stalin's hands. And by the way, spoiler alert, that's exactly what happened. [laughs] So, so in fact, the nuclear secrets walked right out the door. Um, and, um, you know, and, and basically the, both the, the, the concepts of, of the atomic bomb and then actually the specific wiring instructions, uh, for the atomic bomb were actually walking right out the back door of Los Alamos into, into, into, into the Soviets' hands. And, and Stalin got the bomb very quickly after that, and it was di- directly derived from the work that actually happened on the Manhattan Project. And so it turned out the Manhattan Project, like lit- it really was riddled with communist spies. And there's, there's these famous names in history like the Rosenbergs, like David Greenglass that you can go through and read about if you want. But like, it, it like, the, the fears of all of the people who were worried about this were actually correct. It is actually what happened. Um, by the way, there's a character in the movie, uh, Boris Pash, who is sort of the security officer at, at the Manhattan Project, if both in real life and in the movie. And in the movie, he's sort of portrayed as this like guy with basically a, essentially a stick up his butt like this like guy who's like, you know, like constantly like, you know, cross-examining and not trusting the scientists and thinks that Oppenheimer, Oppenheimer's probably a spy and the whole thing. And he's kind of portrayed as this like over the top, you know, kind of thing. But like if you, if you go, if you read his Wikipedia entry of like what his life story had been up until that point, he's another one of these guys who are just like, he has just this, this incredibly impressive backstory of like service to the country and fighting communists. Um, and then, you know, a- and then like, you know, whether he was right about Oppenheimer, we could talk about, but like he was right that like Los Alamos was riddled with communist spies, and this is gonna lead to catastrophe, you know, with, with Stalin getting the bomb. Um, a- and then, you know, the, the Strauss character was also very worried about that. And again, you know, out- outside of whether he was right about Oppenheimer per se, he was, he was right about the, he was right about the broader issue. Uh, and so, so, so that is what act- that, that, that is what actually happened. Um, and so like all of the security concerns that are kind of a setup to what, you know, is sort of portrayed as the persecution of Robert Oppenheimer, like they were all completely legitimate security concerns. And in fact, the worst case scenario actually did happen. Like all the secrets like walked right out the door, went, went straight to Stalin. The first Soviet, we now know this, the first Soviet atomic bomb was wire for wire compatible with the US Nagasaki bomb, right? So, so, so, so, so they got literally the wiring threads. And, you know, for, for people who have read about nuclear weapons, like it's actually very hard to detonate a nuke, and they have to be wired in a very specific way. Um, it's like you can't, they're, they're, they're very difficult to set off. And like the Soviet spies on the Manhattan Project literally like transferred that information to, to, to, to, to Russia and made a nuclear power. Um, and so anyway, like within that, there's this arc of basically Oppenheimer, you know, was he or was he not... A- and there's one arc actually which is was he or was he not himself a Soviet asset? Which is, it's generally viewed historically that he wasn't literally a Soviet asset, although I think there are still questions around that, in fairness, and we can talk about that. But then there's just this broader thing, which is even if he wasn't, like was he trustworthy and could, could he be relied upon?And then there was a specific thing that actually happened, which the movie presents a version of that I think is not, is, my understanding of history is not correct, but, but which is Oppenheimer basically, uh, worked his butt off to, to deliver the atomic bomb for the purpose of beating, uh, Germany and Japan. Um, but then immediately upon that happening, the US weapons program shifted into making the hydrogen bomb, which was gonna be the, you know, the big one that was gonna be used ultimately, you know, ultimately was going to be used in the Cold War, you know, as the, as a deterrent against the Soviet Union, you know, as a project led by Edward Teller. Um, and, um, and, and the accusation always was O- Oppenheimer deliberately slow-rolled the development of the hydrogen bomb. Like, he, he tried to prevent that from happening. At first the, the, the, you know ... And, and, you know, Oppenheimer's version of the story is it's one thing to like have a nuke that could take out a city if, if to end a war. It's another thing to have a nuke that could take out the planet. But, uh, you know, and, and, and so like, you know, should we really be doing this? But there's another version of the story which is you were completely in favor of beating Germany and Japan, and then but the minute it came to beating the Soviet Union, you know, you got cold feet. Hmm. You know, isn't that interesting, right? That that, that that's the thing that you didn't wanna have happen. And then there's just the reality that like Oppenheimer's backgrounds and political activities and like all of the people around him, including his wife and his girlfriend and his brother, were actual, like, [door closing] if anything, I believe this to be the case. I think his wife, his girlfriend and, and his brother were all actual communists, like actual capital C charcuterie communists. And then Oppenheimer himself was like embroiled in communism and it's, it's sort of communist, you know, sort of adjacent organizations, you know, his entire life. He, he's not known to ever have been a member of the Communist Party, although again, there's, there's, there's, um, there's ambiguity there because the Soviets had a practice of having their best placed assets actually never become members of the Communist Party because of course they were trying to protect them against exactly the kind of persecution that Oppenheimer got, got, got, got leveled against him. Uh, but anyway, so in, in the movie, ultimately his security clearance gets, gets stripped and he sort of resigns in disgrace. The movie paints this as like a great act of moral heroism on his part, where basically he wanted credit for the little bomb, but he didn't want the big bomb to happen and certainly didn't want to have anything to do with it. Um, you know. And, and look, you know, he's dead. [laughs] You know, they're all dead. Like, you know, I, I don't know that we'll ever know like what, what, what lay in their hearts, but there are very interesting questions around this. Um, and then there's the, the, and then there's my most stinging indictment of the movie, uh, which is, uh, Einstein was the exact opposite of a moral exemplar. Uh, Einstein was a Stalinist. Like Ei- Einstein was like a full on, like, E- Einstein was pro-Stalin. Like, not even just pro-communist, was actually like pro-Stalin. And Einstein thought that like American democracy was like not gonna cut it and like we clearly needed to get to communist dictatorship. And there's a, there's a book that goes through this, uh, called Wh- When Reason Goes on Holiday, uh, that came out a few years ago, that kind of goes through all of Einstein's writings and speeches and kind of re- reconstructs this history. And so the movie kind of presents Oppenheimer and Einstein as like the adults, and, and especially Einstein, as like the moral adults in the room, uh, to a degree that I just think is like basically at this point bizarre. And the re- and the reason it's bizarre is because, you know, the whole thing is set up of like, oh, my God, what if the atomic bomb destroys the world? Oh, my God, you know, this, this whole thing and all politics involved in that, sort of ending and so forth. But like we're sitting here 80 years later, and, and the thing that we know today, and, and I don't know that any of us would choose to have had the events play out this way and maybe the world would be better without the bomb or whatever, but like, what we know today is World War III didn't happen. Um, and so basically, like everybody, everybody in sort of the military political establishment in 1945 kind of took it for granted that there was gonna be World War III with the Soviet Union at some point. Um, and it was gonna be a land war, you know, in Europe and around the world, and it was gonna kill probably, you know, on the order of 200 million people, and it was just gonna be absolutely devastating. And like, you know, i- in any other era like of, of, of sort of geopolitics, like that almost certainly would have happened given how, given how tense everything got, especially in the '60s and '70s. It, it like literally didn't happen. Like World War III is, is, is the dog that didn't bite. And the, and the reason World War III didn't happen is sort of, I think, fairly obvious, which was mutually assured destruction, right? The, the fact that both sides had nukes basically meant that neither side could go to war with the other, and that resulted in 80... You know, it resulted in a cold
- 1:03:00 – 1:08:40
The Morality of the Bomb and the Cold War Reality
- MAMarc Andreessen
war, but not a hot war. Um, and so I, you know, I think if you kind of stack up Oppenheimer and Teller and these guys, you kind of say, you know, by, by, by, by building bombs that could destroy the world, they prevented at least one, you know, major World War. If, if, you know, by the way, if, if not many. Uh, and by the way, the, the existence of nukes may prevent another World War for 500 years, right? We, you know, we don't know yet, but like, you know, the, the, like the, that mutually assured destruction is, is, is still in effect. Yeah, they may be pro- they may be, uh, they may be causing us to not have a, a hot war with, with China, right? The, the fact that both the US and China have nukes. Um, and so anyway, so... And, and by the way, that's all debatable and you can argue that, but like, that's the argument, that's the argument that ought to happen, like especially with what we know today. And I just thought the movie like, I thought the movie just like really cheated on the morality of it, 'cause it kind of presented this as guys, this slam dunk that the nuke was bad and that these people were bad and the whole thing was bad, and that Einstein was like a m- or, sorry, that both Einstein and Oppenheimer were, were moral her- heroes in, in some extent kind of trying to wind up against this. And I just thought that, that, that really cheated the audience.
- KBKatherine Boyle
I, I, I think, uh, I think you and I are much closer on our critique of it. My, my sense is very similar to yours, that it started out very strong, right? Like, like your, your, the portrayal in Berkeley, like was a very interesting, you know, like you, you kind of, you saw this complex figure and complex character, and then there's this whole middle section, um, on the Manhattan Project that kind of culminates in what I would say is like incredible like visuals and sound. Like actually, like the movie excels in both score and sound, and if you saw it in the theater you were like the, the, the sound editing is like the thing that won the Oscar, right? I think they won 10 Oscars. I mean, they won everything. But it's like, i- like sound editing and score, like just incredible movie making. And then to your, to use your word, schizophrenic, like the third part, which is all about, you know, Robert Downey Junies- Jr.'s character being like a villain, it sort of ends with this, you know, there's this brilliant scene that I think everyone remembers where they show him giving a speech to all the people um, at Los Alamos and then they show like him envisioning bodies, um, in, in, you know, in, in Hiroshima, right? And you, you kind of see the juxtaposition. You see him sort of losing his, his sort of, um, hi- his sort of, you know, con- conviction that he did the right thing. And I feel like if they had just stopped the movie there-It would've been the commentary on like, okay, like we don't really understand his legacy, but instead they had to tie it up with... It was almost like a, if, if, you know, for, for writers and artists, like if you don't know how to end something, you kind of tie things up with neat bows that have nothing to do with the thing that happened before. And it felt like the third section on the security clearance and on him being a hero was almost like the filmmaker's apology. Like, "Actually, no, no, I'm gonna side, I'm actually gonna, gonna paint this for everyone and side that he was actually a good man and, and there's, there's no sort of moral ambiguity about this, this figure. Like, he was actually a good man, and actually, the, the real villains are the national security hawks and the people in Washington and the bureaucrats." And like, and then it was just this sort of portrayal of, you know, the evil bureaucracy coming for the beautiful scientist. And, and it sort of mimicked, I think, also a conversation that was happening in 2023 when it came out, which is all of these great AI scientists basically saying, "Oh, well, no, AI's actually gonna kill us all, and, you know, I know this because I'm an expert." It was like the same sort of thing, and I kind of felt like that was also the, the sort of language of the end of the film is like, "No, no, it's normal for people who, who build incredible things to like, actually regret their innovation." And it just felt like way too buttoned up for a film that has a lot more complexity, and that if they had just ended it at hour two, it would've been a masterpiece.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. It felt like it wanted to conform with present-day morality, like, very badly.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, yeah, exactly. Um, and so that, anyway, so that, that's my like, like long-extended argument for why Lewis Strauss was actually the hero of the movie, uh, [laughs] because he was correct. Uh, Oppenheimer could not be trusted. Uh, Oppenheimer needed to be, be rejected from the project. Uh, also Lewis Strauss is shown in the movie as, as being very jealous of, of Einstein, but if you squint, you could say he also had Einstein's number. Uh, they knew Einstein was not to be trusted, um, uh, which was 100% true. And then yeah, Katherine, to your point, like it, it, like if you, again, it, it, I think that's exactly right w- what you just said of the comparison to AI. Like, i- if you read the history of, of those people at that time, specifically people like Oppenheimer, you realize, yeah, the people who invent the technology have no special moral claim. Uh, they have no special predictive power for the consequence of the technology, and they have no, no basis for a superior moral claim on the implications of the technology. Um, and, and I will say this. The movie, you know, the movie being made by geniuses, like, the- there was a scene in the movie that actually did kinda hit that, uh, which was, which was, which was based on a real life thing that happened, which was, uh, Oppenheimer after the war visited Harry Truman at the, in the White House. Um, and basically, and, and this is sort of in the, in the histories, in the real world histories, Oppenheimer basically went to Truman and bas- e- essentially basically confessed enormous guilt, uh, for having built the atomic bomb and for, for having, you know, for the US having dropped it on, uh, on, on Japan. And, and, and actually in real life, Truman is, I forget the exact quote, but it's in the Truman biographies. Uh, you know, Truman basically said, uh, to- it, it basically, uh, you know, basically like, got him out of his office as fast as possible and told his chief of staff, like, uh, I think the, I think the exact line was, "Never let that weepy son of a bitch in here again."
- KBKatherine Boyle
[laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, a- and then I think the line in the movie is based on something Truman apparently actually said, which was, uh, you know, "Robert, you, you didn't make the decision to drop the bomb. It's not on you. I made the decision." Right? Uh, which, right, which, which is like, which is like an incredibly powerful thing, which is the duly elected Commander in Chief of the country made the decision, as he should have. The, the, the, the, the scientist does not have the moral authority to decide how the technology is used. It, it, it's the, it's, it's our, you know, in our system of, of government that the, the, the Commander in Chief has that authority, you know, and our, our elected representatives. Um, and so I, like, to the movie's enormous credit, it did include that. It did show that. Um, a- a- and again, like in, in my fantasy cut of the movie, that's the end of the movie. Um, [laughs] so they kinda nodded it out, but like, you know, like I said, they, then, then, then, then, then they let, then, then, then they let him off the hook, um, uh,
- 1:08:40 – 1:12:30
AI, Scientists, and the Burden of Invention
- MAMarc Andreessen
at the end.
- SPSpeaker
Shall we close with, uh, with Fight Club?
- MAMarc Andreessen
Fight Club. Well, we could spend an entire... We could spend hours on just Fight Club, and we probably should at some point. I, I would just say about Fight Club, Fight Club's an amazing... I, I, it's like, I think it's, I, I think it's, it's 100% true art with Capital A. I think it's amazing. I think it's, you know, definitely gonna stand the test of time. Uh, you know, already is. Um, you know, it's one of those movies. A- and it's, it's one of those movies that has that characteristic we talked about last time, where like, if you watched it the week it came out versus a year later versus five years later versus 10 years later versus 20 years versus 30 years later, like it, it has new meanings, uh, as, as, as our society evolves. And, and it's go- and you can kind of, you, you can ki- at any, at any kind of point in time you can kind of use it as a prism, uh, on our society. Um, it's, it's a, it's, it's amazing in retrospect, I guess my, my sort of so- social political kind of, kind of analysis of it would be like, it was clearly intended as a left-wing movie, um, at the time, 'cause it was sort of, it was sort of, um, and you know, and the novel that, you know, the, the famous novel that it's based on. You know, and, and it was sort of this, you know, almost like, what was it? Remember the original like... It, it was the sort of it- left-wing anti-capitalism of that era, like left-wing anarchism. Um, you know, a little bit like that, you know, the '90s version of like Luigi leftism or something, where it's like, you know, capitalism is this, you know, basically this horrible right-wing machine that's like crushing everybody's spirits. Um, and of course in, in the movie had Norton in place. You know, it's sort of an office drone who just like abdicates his life. Um, and you know, has no future and, and like hates himself and, you know, ends up doing all, all the things that, that, you know, kind of play out in the movie. Which, you know, and then, and then by the way, the movie culminates in basically the, the, the destruction of capitalism. Um, you know, basically, uh, what is it? He, they, they, he, he takes down the buildings containing I think it's like all the, what is it? All the bank records or credit card records, uh, to kinda, you know, wipe the slate clean and start, start, start the economy and society over again. Um, so at the time it's just like wow, that's like a really left-wing message. Um, and of course it's, you know, it's like, it's, it's, you know, David Fincher and it's Ed Norton and Brad Pitt, and it's like one of the best, most entertaining, you know, most captivating movies ever made. It's, it's phenomenal, but like it's fundamentally a left-wing movie. You watch it today and you're just like, "Wow, it's like ultra right-wing." Like, it's like ultra, ultra, ultra right-wing. 'Cause it's a, to, to start with, it's a white guy, right?
- SPSpeaker
Yeah.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Um, uh, right? And so like it's literally you view it today and you're like, wow, it's, you know, it's, it's, you know, the, the stereotype would be it's a right-wing, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a white, you know, it's a privileged white male incel, uh, you know, basically, right? Uh, you know, with like every advantage in the world who suddenly, you know, who nevertheless has built up this persecution complex, right? And you just, so through, through today's lenses you're just like, wow, that's like an ultra right-wing movie. Uh, and then by the way, the, the sort of argument the movie makes about why capitalism is like the great, you know, atomization of society and like nobody has any ties to anything and people are just like interchangeable cogs in the great, you know, kind of, you know, in the great kind of machine of modernity. Um, you know, they're kind of put on this assembly line through complete meaninglessness until they die and like all concept of like family and community is like completely ruptured. And like capitalism is like, you know, basically the machine that does that. You know, ne- ne- neoliberal capitalism is the machine that does that. Like sitting here today, that's a right-wing critique. Um, a- and so, and so I, I, I probably shouldn't name names, but I, I did talk to somebody who was involved in the making of the movie. Just like I don't wanna, it was a, a, I don't wanna stir, I don't wanna-Represent his, his view is what I, I specifically by name, but I talked to somebody who made the movie and I laid out my theory that it was a left-wing movie at the time and now it's a right-wing movie, and this, this person basically said, "Oh, no." He's like, "You- it- it's very clear in the movie that at the end, you know, that he re- regrets what he's doing. Like, he, you know, he, he like has, you know, he's filled with regret. Like, it's a very, you know, kinda sad, tragic ending." Um, and, and I was like, "Oh, well then if you just like used AI to just go in there and tweak the final scene, uh, uh, of, of, uh, the Ed Norton character standing, you know, watching the buildings come down, and if you just tweak the final scene to where he would have like a slight little smile on his face," like all of a sudden, like the entire movie becomes like this, you know, basically ultra right-wing from start to finish. Um, an- anyway, I'll, I'll pause there. I just, I was just gonna say whichever way you interpret it, like I think that movie definitely is Capital A Art. I, I think it's amazing. I think it'll... I think people will be watching it and discussing it, you know, 100 years from now.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yeah. To, to bring it back to the original thesis of this podcast, Monitoring the Situation That's Going On
- 1:12:30 – 1:15:30
Fight Club: Nihilism, Masculinity, and "Capital A" Art
- KBKatherine Boyle
in the Internet, um, what went viral this week related to Fight Club was the PSAs that Brad Pitt and Edward Norton put out before the movie came out in theaters. And if you ha- I won't ru- this is one thing I won't spoil, but it was going viral. Like, why don't we make PSAs about like staying silent in the theater like this, uh, anymore? You have to watch it. It's like 90 seconds, um, and it just confirms that Brad Pitt is the GOAT. He is hilarious, um, and that he puts serious thought into everything he does, including the please stay quiet in the theater, uh, PSAs that went out before the movie came out [laughs] in theaters 25 years ago. So watch it. Uh, I'm glad it's going viral again, and we should definitely make actors do those PSAs for theaters. [laughs]
- MAMarc Andreessen
So Katherine, that movie came out in what year?
- SPSpeaker
1999.
- KBKatherine Boyle
1999. Yeah, 1999.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Which is kind of universally I remember just like a year of like absolutely amazing movies.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yes. Yes.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Maybe the be- maybe the best single year for movies in the last like 40 years-
- KBKatherine Boyle
Yes
- MAMarc Andreessen
... or, or longer. So, um, question, um, could that movie... So number one is that movie was a, at least according to the accounts that I've read, that movie was very difficult to make. Um, and then once they had it in the can, like people, the original people who saw it, like were, you know, it was just like it, it... A lot of people just like didn't know what to make of it, you know, 'cause it, it, it is a very simplistic reading of it, right? Which is just like total nihilism and like just destruction and, and, you know, sex and violence, you know, to no purpose. It's one of those movies where, like, y- you, you have to have a lens on the movie. You have to have an idea of the movie, or the movie has to get its idea across to you, and you have to, you have to catch the idea before you can actually watch it properly. 'Cause if you just watch it otherwise, it just seems like it's just like tremendously nihilistic, whi- which I, you know, very much, I very much don't believe that it is. But, uh, it, it, you know, I think it was very controversial at the time. Um, it was very hard to get made. You know, it, it was misinterpreted by many people over the years. And [laughs] and by the way, the people who made it might be me as misinterpreting it. Um, and so that, that movie could get made during that era. Could that movie have gotten made, uh, after the '90s?
- KBKatherine Boyle
I, I feel like it's the, like the consummate '90s film.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Mm-hmm.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Right? Like, like just the, the, as you said, like the critique on consumerism, like the, uh, sort of early critique on, um, you know, kind of the consumerism affecting masculine, like, traits, right? Like, like the whole, the whole reaction of, you know, we're gonna have a fight club to kind of reclaim our, our masculinity and sort of our life and our, you know. That, that felt like was actually... I mean, it's, it's interesting 'cause it's the same critique, uh, it's the same conversation that's happening right now, but it really was also a '90s conversation, um, to sort of, you know. And, and that's the same thing as, um, I believe 1999 was also American Beauty, and that's a similar sort of like all of these movies had the same sort of, uh, to your point, nihilism, but sort of this David Foster Wallace-esque sort of consumerism is destroying us, we're moving to the suburbs, and we have to reclaim in some way. And like, the sort of I, I, I don't, uh, like the portrayal of, uh, any man feeling like constrained in their, you know, it was alwa- it was always sort of like the consumerism and the suburbanization of America is destroying sort of like masculine freedom, right? So there were like a... That was like a very '90s-
- MAMarc Andreessen
Right
- KBKatherine Boyle
... coded
- 1:15:30 – 1:16:00
Could Fight Club Be Made Today?
- KBKatherine Boyle
end, end of the '90s film era. Like I don't, so a part of me is like, I don't... I, it could probably be made, but it would probably be made with totally different ethos and maybe a totally different take on that, um, thesis now. Like the thesis is slightly different than what it was in the '90s, which is that like, you know, like Walmart is destroying you, right? Like, [laughs] it's very different. Now it's like tech is destroying you, but at the time it was Walmart and capitalism are destroying you.
- SPSpeaker
Marc, Katherine, thanks so much for, for coming on and talk about movies again.
- MAMarc Andreessen
Yeah. Awesome.
- KBKatherine Boyle
Awesome. Thank you so much, Marc. [upbeat music]
Episode duration: 1:16:21
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