Mark Cuban on the NBA, Cost Plus Drugs, and How to Fix Politics

Mark Cuban 0:00 I look at business as a sport, and I just love to compete. I just like to be intellectually challenged.

Erik Torenberg 0:04 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 0:04 I'm an independent. I don't care about parties.

Erik Torenberg 0:05 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 0:05 I could care less. I wanna be where different viewpoints are, an intellectual response rather than just a "You suck" response-

Erik Torenberg 0:12 Yeah

Mark Cuban 0:12 ... that you get on social media.

Erik Torenberg 0:16 Mark, thanks for coming on the podcast.

Mark Cuban 0:18 Thanks for having me on. Excited to be here.

Erik Torenberg 0:19 So we've spent a lot of time last couple years or so, but most of that time digitally-

Mark Cuban 0:23 Yep

Erik Torenberg 0:23 ... and on group chats. And, uh, one question that of-often I get in the group chats sphere is, "How do these billionaires have so much time to be on group chats?" To which I say, "Oh, that's actually the highest form, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs."

Mark Cuban 0:34 Right.

Erik Torenberg 0:34 Once you really make it, then you wanna argue with your friends and have interesting conversations.

Mark Cuban 0:38 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 0:39 W-what's a... What's, what's your reflection on what you get out of these or what you spend time on?

Mark Cuban 0:42 You wanna learn, you wanna challenge yourself, you wanna see what other people think and why.

Erik Torenberg 0:46 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 0:46 Because, you know, in a world that's changing the way it is, you know, I wanna be where different viewpoints are and have it be, you know, uh, an intellectual response rather than just a "You suck" response-

Erik Torenberg 0:58 Yeah

Mark Cuban 0:58 ... that you get on social media.

Erik Torenberg 0:59 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 1:00 And one of the things I appreciate most about one of our group chats is that you're one of the, the lone dissent. Originally it was on the election-

Mark Cuban 1:06 Right

Erik Torenberg 1:07 ... and, and, uh, you know, it had more of a right-leaning crowd and, and you were one of the, you know, most prominent Democrat-

Mark Cuban 1:12 I was the dissenter.

Erik Torenberg 1:13 Exactly.

Mark Cuban 1:13 I'm not even a Democrat. I was just-

Erik Torenberg 1:14 Yes, exactly

Mark Cuban 1:15 ... the dissenter. Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 1:15 And willing to, to sort of be independent and go-

Mark Cuban 1:18 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 1:18 What did, what did you get out of that? Is it you just get sharper, get your arguments smarter? Reflect on that.

Mark Cuban 1:22 It w- it wasn't so much that.

Erik Torenberg 1:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:23 I just, um, to me, there was a lot of things that didn't make sense.

Erik Torenberg 1:26 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:26 You know, and to them it didn't make sense where I stood.

Erik Torenberg 1:29 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:29 And I wanted to get to the root of why people came to those conclusions.

Erik Torenberg 1:34 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:35 And, you know, typically it just came down to trust.

Erik Torenberg 1:37 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:37 You know? But you don't know that that's gonna be the underpinning logic-

Erik Torenberg 1:41 Right

Mark Cuban 1:41 ... until you ask the questions.

Erik Torenberg 1:42 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:42 And so I think, you know, a lot of people presume if the-- in, in any type of group chat, right-

Erik Torenberg 1:47 Yeah

Mark Cuban 1:48 ... that you know where everybody stands and you think you understand why.

Erik Torenberg 1:51 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:51 But it's until you start kind of, uh, challenging them and-

Erik Torenberg 1:54 Yeah

Mark Cuban 1:55 ... and then on top of it, it makes me, you know, reconfirm why, why I feel how I feel.

Erik Torenberg 2:00 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:00 You know, and, and, and that's a win for me as well.

Erik Torenberg 2:02 Totally. Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:03 I'm an independent.

Erik Torenberg 2:04 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:04 I don't care about parties.

Erik Torenberg 2:05 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:05 I could care less. You know, the Demo-

Erik Torenberg 2:07 Have you ever supported a Republican?

Mark Cuban 2:08 Have I? Oh, yeah.

Erik Torenberg 2:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:09 Yeah. I don't care. I've voted-

Erik Torenberg 2:10 Yeah

Mark Cuban 2:10 ... for Republicans.

Erik Torenberg 2:10 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:11 I ju- I just don't care.

Erik Torenberg 2:11 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:12 Right? I try to be, you know, look at each individual issue. I actually voted for George Bush.

Erik Torenberg 2:16 Okay.

Mark Cuban 2:17 Yeah. Um, you know, we can argue about the quality-

Erik Torenberg 2:20 Yeah

Mark Cuban 2:20 ... but it's, it's about the alternatives.

Erik Torenberg 2:21 Right. [laughs]

Mark Cuban 2:22 Right? Um, and then like the first time I ever-- Well, I don't go back that far.

Erik Torenberg 2:25 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:26 But in terms of the comparisons to Trump, you know, we're both salespeople.

Erik Torenberg 2:30 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:31 You know? And I think that is a strength for me to understand him.

Erik Torenberg 2:36 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:36 Because at his heart, he just knows how to do PR and sales.

Erik Torenberg 2:42 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:42 That's who he is.

Erik Torenberg 2:43 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:44 And that's how I've, you know, I've grown my businesses.

Erik Torenberg 2:47 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:48 You know, people always hear me talk about sales cures all, and-

Erik Torenberg 2:50 Yeah

Mark Cuban 2:50 ... you have to understand your market and context, and he's brilliant of it, at it.

Erik Torenberg 2:54 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 2:54 You know, he understands how to sell, he understands how to use PR, he understands where leverage comes and when it doesn't exist-

Erik Torenberg 3:02 Yeah

Mark Cuban 3:02 ... um, and how to zig and zag when it doesn't work.

Erik Torenberg 3:06 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 3:06 And, you know, I think those are actually skills of people who have built businesses. Those are entrepreneurial-

Erik Torenberg 3:11 Yeah

Mark Cuban 3:12 ... skills. Now, when you actually run the business, you have to do all the work behind it.

Erik Torenberg 3:15 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 3:16 And as a politician, that's not always the case.

Erik Torenberg 3:18 And, um, when did you realize that business people would have platforms that would give them kinda distribution advantages in reaching customers?

Mark Cuban 3:26 Just when social media came out.

Erik Torenberg 3:27 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 3:27 You know?

Erik Torenberg 3:27 'Cause you were early to this.

Mark Cuban 3:28 Yeah. I mean-

Erik Torenberg 3:28 You were very early. Like you-

Mark Cuban 3:29 V-

Erik Torenberg 3:29 ... you and Trump, like one of the early, early people.

Mark Cuban 3:31 Yeah. I mean, right when Twitter started.

Erik Torenberg 3:32 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 3:32 Well, not when, not 2006, but 2009 at South-

Erik Torenberg 3:35 Yeah

Mark Cuban 3:35 ... by Southwest-

Erik Torenberg 3:35 Yeah

Mark Cuban 3:36 ... when they were all pumping it up.

Erik Torenberg 3:37 Right. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 3:37 Um, when it was all about just where's the party at.

Erik Torenberg 3:39 Yeah. Yeah.

Mark Cuban 3:40 You know? Um, but yeah, I mean, social media obviously i- it's like, why are people following me?

Erik Torenberg 3:46 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 3:46 And it's just, you know, it, it's aspirational at some levels. And I owned the Mavs, so it was-

Erik Torenberg 3:50 Yeah

Mark Cuban 3:50 ... informational. Um, and then just w-with the technology background, it was informational there as well. So I could, I could reach into different y- domains-

Erik Torenberg 4:00 Yeah

Mark Cuban 4:00 ... and, and interact with people, and that creates a platform, and each platform has its own look and feel, and you just learn how to, you know-

Erik Torenberg 4:08 Yeah

Mark Cuban 4:08 ... deal with it accordingly. It's gonna be really interesting because of AI.

Erik Torenberg 4:12 Right.

Mark Cuban 4:12 Um, AI, as you know, has multidimensional impact.

Erik Torenberg 4:16 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 4:17 In how you create content, how that content is absorbed. Effectively, we all have our own feed.

Erik Torenberg 4:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 4:23 No two people have the exact same feed, and, you know, what Trump has done well is learn how to flood the zone-

Erik Torenberg 4:29 Yeah

Mark Cuban 4:29 ... so that no matter what that algorithm finds for you, he's gonna find a way to you.

Erik Torenberg 4:35 Right.

Mark Cuban 4:35 Whether it's a positive or negative, um... And then you look at Kamala and Brat Summer.

Erik Torenberg 4:40 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 4:41 And, you know, fell off a coconut tree.

Erik Torenberg 4:42 Right.

Mark Cuban 4:43 Brilliant. She had everything going for her.

Erik Torenberg 4:45 Wow.

Mark Cuban 4:45 But the Democrats didn't have anybody who knew how to sell.

Erik Torenberg 4:48 Right.

Mark Cuban 4:48 And so going back to your question, it's not so much reality stars or, you know, business people with followings. It's people who know how to use algorithms and understand how they work.

Erik Torenberg 5:01 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 5:01 And now, as AI is evolving very quickly, knowing how to use AI and what's the impact on social media.

Erik Torenberg 5:07 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 5:07 Because if it takes two seconds to generate on Veo and, and then pretty soon that becomes agentic, and pretty soon it's, okay, everything-- just videotape everything that I do and everything, and I-

Erik Torenberg 5:17 Right

Mark Cuban 5:17 ... you know, and just create videos and just flood every single account that we create.

Erik Torenberg 5:22 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 5:22 And then all of a sudden do people find themselves saying, "I'm gonna use social media less 'cause it's all AI generated, and I don't know what's real. There's nothing social about it."

Erik Torenberg 5:29 Right.

Mark Cuban 5:30 Or do they think, you know, talking babies and gorillas, you know [chuckles] -

Erik Torenberg 5:34 Yeah

Mark Cuban 5:34 ... you know, as videos is the-

Erik Torenberg 5:35 Yeah

Mark Cuban 5:36 ... way to communicate?

Erik Torenberg 5:37 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 5:37 And so it's gonna be fascinating over the next three years because we don't know that part.

Erik Torenberg 5:41 Right.

Mark Cuban 5:41 And so we may find ourselves in a scenario where we diverge from the traditional s-salesperson putting it out there-

Erik Torenberg 5:48 Right

Mark Cuban 5:48 ... like Trump, um, and find our way to, okay, let's understand how we do this.

Erik Torenberg 5:54 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 5:54 It's just like polling. Polling's useless now.

Erik Torenberg 5:57 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 5:57 You're always behind.

Erik Torenberg 5:58 Right.

Mark Cuban 5:59 And any one social media comment can change how everybody-

Erik Torenberg 6:02 Yeah

Mark Cuban 6:02 ... feels in a nanosecond. And so, you know, how do people start integrating surveys?

Erik Torenberg 6:08 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 6:08 You know, I'm just continuously survey-surveying with all those questions we get online, and what direction does that take us? How do I integrate that into video creation, right? And how do I... I mean-What's the limit?

Erik Torenberg 6:21 Yeah. So you experimented with a social network a few years ago, the Dust it was called?

Mark Cuban 6:25 Mm-hmm.

Erik Torenberg 6:25 Do you,

Erik Torenberg 6:26 um, when you look out, you know, five years from now, ten years from now, do you th- do you think there's a new platform that emerges, or do you think it's kind of this like fragmented ecosystem that we have now? What, what is your prediction for the future of social?

Mark Cuban 6:36 Well, I mean, look at Blue Sky.

Erik Torenberg 6:38 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 6:38 They, they, you know, have been around for a little while, but then all of a sudden when Trump got elected, their usage-

Erik Torenberg 6:43 Yeah

Mark Cuban 6:43 ...just boomed.

Erik Torenberg 6:45 Right. I call it the fragmentation of like, you know, people didn't like Elon. Now, now it-

Mark Cuban 6:48 Right. So-

Erik Torenberg 6:48 It's not just that, but yeah.

Mark Cuban 6:49 But yeah, so they moved, right? But now it became its own silo.

Erik Torenberg 6:52 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 6:52 And so I think there will be-- it won't be social media-

Erik Torenberg 6:56 Right

Mark Cuban 6:56 ...but there'll be media.

Erik Torenberg 6:57 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 6:57 Because the, you know, depends on how much you believe in AI and where you think it'll go. I always look at it as creative people, they'll be able to amplify their creativity-

Erik Torenberg 7:09 Yeah

Mark Cuban 7:09 ...and iterate incessantly.

Erik Torenberg 7:11 Right.

Mark Cuban 7:11 And that will create some an amazing incessant, you know, am-amazing, incredible things. Um, are you just gonna put it on X? Are you gonna put it on LinkedIn? Are you gonna put it on Blue Sky? Are you gonna put it on TikTok? You don't have control of the algorithm.

Erik Torenberg 7:25 Right.

Mark Cuban 7:26 You know, and so I think there will be something new, and I think how people connect to that content, um, will be the foundation of it because I think we're, we're tired of rage bait.

Erik Torenberg 7:40 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 7:40 You know, um, and we're tired of the fact that, you know, the algorithm presents what you seek-

Erik Torenberg 7:45 Yeah

Mark Cuban 7:45 ...effectively. Um, I think instead, we are going to get unique offerings that don't seem to make sense right now.

Erik Torenberg 7:54 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 7:55 And I think part two to that is, you know, like if you go on X and you use Grok, it almost always, unless it's something that Elon is, is individually interested in-

Erik Torenberg 8:05 Yeah

Mark Cuban 8:05 ...it comes up with a legitimate answer.

Erik Torenberg 8:07 Wow.

Mark Cuban 8:07 Right? And you get people who say, "Well, you know, hey Grok, tell me which..." And it doesn't give them what they expect.

Erik Torenberg 8:11 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 8:12 You know, and I think that's a huge positive.

Erik Torenberg 8:13 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 8:14 And it's the same on other platforms as well, where you can just go to ChatGPT, Perplexity, whatever you use, or all of them, and ask questions. So you'll see a reduction of misinformation-

Erik Torenberg 8:23 Yeah

Mark Cuban 8:23 ...I hope. And by, with the reduction of misinformation, you're gonna have less rage bait.

Erik Torenberg 8:27 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 8:28 And with less rage bait, what's the connection? And hopefully, it's better quality content. Hopefully, it's, you know, I don't know. It's just like if we were sitting here go- just going to brainstorm-

Erik Torenberg 8:39 Right

Mark Cuban 8:39 ...and just say, you know, "Can we create our own new n-network?"

Erik Torenberg 8:42 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 8:42 Right? What would it include and what were the, what-

Erik Torenberg 8:45 Yeah

Mark Cuban 8:45 ...were the parameters be?

Erik Torenberg 8:47 And when you did it maybe five years ago, maybe more, was that like a

Erik Torenberg 8:50 Snap competitor? I'm trying to remember-

Mark Cuban 8:51 Yeah. No, it was ten years ago.

Erik Torenberg 8:52 Ten years ago.

Mark Cuban 8:52 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 8:53 Wow.

Mark Cuban 8:53 Twelve years ago.

Erik Torenberg 8:53 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 8:54 Um, and it was more because of what happened with the SEC, where I got charged by the SEC for insider trading, and they basically just took anything and everything I said out of context.

Erik Torenberg 9:04 Right.

Mark Cuban 9:04 Right? So I gave them everything I had, and I got cleared in like fifteen minutes.

Erik Torenberg 9:08 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 9:08 Um, but the point was, I wanted something that was truly private.

Erik Torenberg 9:12 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 9:12 And so, and it still exists today.

Erik Torenberg 9:14 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 9:14 You know, um, but I just use it for mostly internal, um, communications with our employees.

Erik Torenberg 9:19 Yeah, that makes sense.

Erik Torenberg 9:20 The-- let's go back to the, the messaging on, uh, on Democrats, Republicans.

Mark Cuban 9:25 Uh-huh.

Erik Torenberg 9:25 If you were in charge of the, the DNC, the, the Democratic Party, and controlled both the platform and the messaging, what, what, what would you advise? What would the pl-

Mark Cuban 9:34 Well, first you gotta have people that know how to sell.

Erik Torenberg 9:35 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 9:36 You know? And second, you have to know what people wanna buy.

Erik Torenberg 9:39 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 9:39 And people wanna buy, quote unquote, "Just a better life."

Erik Torenberg 9:43 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 9:43 You know, what the Democrats do is they project.

Erik Torenberg 9:46 Mm-hmm.

Mark Cuban 9:46 They extrapolate. Trump did this-

Erik Torenberg 9:48 Yeah

Mark Cuban 9:49 ...so it's the end of the world.

Erik Torenberg 9:50 Yeah. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 9:50 The Republicans are just like, "What's the price of tea in China?"

Erik Torenberg 9:53 [laughs]

Mark Cuban 9:54 Right? 'Cause I drink tea from China.

Erik Torenberg 9:55 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 9:55 You know, and they de-deal directly with what's happening with you today.

Erik Torenberg 9:59 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 10:00 And ninety-nine percent of people in this country, that's what they care about first.

Erik Torenberg 10:03 Right.

Mark Cuban 10:03 You know, and so I would go to the Democrats and say, "Look at the price of beef."

Erik Torenberg 10:08 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 10:08 And I think that's what the Democrats miss. They're so intent on the T word, right?

Erik Torenberg 10:13 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 10:13 Everything is just a trigger word because they want people yelling and screaming at rallies, and that's great.

Erik Torenberg 10:19 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 10:19 Just like Trump did. If you have ten, fifteen thousand people with Bernie AOC, and you wanna get them all riled up-

Erik Torenberg 10:23 [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 10:24 ...it's a pep rally.

Erik Torenberg 10:24 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 10:25 Right? Say what you gotta say for the pep rally, but if you wanna get people to pay attention... I'll, I'll give you an example. I was in Indiana-

Erik Torenberg 10:33 Yeah

Mark Cuban 10:33 ...um, for w- I have, I have a company, Shark Tank company, Guardian Bikes, and we moved eighty percent of their manufacturing to, um, Seymour, Indiana.

Erik Torenberg 10:41 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 10:41 And so they invited me in, um, and we celebrated, and they, they've grown from, you know, two hundred thousand dollars at Shark Tank. They'll do a hundred and twenty million dollars now.

Erik Torenberg 10:49 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 10:49 And so we got into a little bit, and then we had a question and answer, and somebody stood up, "I saw on the news," and they started getting the question, and I just blurt up, "I don't watch the news."

Erik Torenberg 10:59 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 10:59 And the place went nuts. It just-

Erik Torenberg 11:01 Yeah

Mark Cuban 11:02 ...erupted, right? Like, of all the things we talked about for an hour and a half-

Erik Torenberg 11:06 Yeah

Mark Cuban 11:06 ...that by far got a 10X response.

Erik Torenberg 11:08 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:09 That said volumes to me, right-

Erik Torenberg 11:11 Right

Mark Cuban 11:11 ...in terms of where people's heads are at.

Erik Torenberg 11:13 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:13 They don't wanna deal with all that shit anymore.

Erik Torenberg 11:16 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:16 They don't want to hear about the end of democracy. They don't wanna hear that Trump is an ultimate cancer.

Erik Torenberg 11:21 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:22 Put aside whether or not you believe it's true.

Erik Torenberg 11:23 Right.

Mark Cuban 11:24 That's not the goal.

Erik Torenberg 11:25 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:25 The Democrats always lose track of the goal. They lose sight of what the end game is.

Erik Torenberg 11:29 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:30 If you want to replace Trump, if you want to win the midterms, it's not about ripping on Trump. That's been said for the last ten years.

Erik Torenberg 11:37 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:37 But how are you changing people's lives?

Erik Torenberg 11:39 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:39 And then I got into it with, um, somebody else on the Democrat side via email, and it was about, you know, oligarchs and billionaires. Go get 'em. I'm like, "Fine, I'll pay more taxes. I don't care."

Erik Torenberg 11:50 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 11:50 Right? But, but do you think the oth- other than the nine hundred and forty-two billionaires in this country, right? [chuckles] Other than getting people riled up-

Erik Torenberg 11:59 Yeah

Mark Cuban 12:00 ...how are you changing anybody's life?

Erik Torenberg 12:01 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 12:02 Right? People wanna know that you're impacting their life.

Erik Torenberg 12:05 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 12:05 They wanna know that things are gonna be better. We, we hear about housing. We hear about, you know, should they go to college or not, the threat of AI in their mind, right? All these different things that they truly worry about and talk at, talk about at the dinner table.

Erik Torenberg 12:19 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 12:19 How often do the Democrats talk about it? And then it's like, "Well, let's go get the billionaires." And I'm like, "Okay. If you want... What's the goal?"Do you want to reduce income inequality?

Mark Cuban 12:31 Then go to the billionaires and give them incentives, which really made them mad.

Erik Torenberg 12:34 Right.

Mark Cuban 12:34 Right? Companies incentives, not the individual-

Erik Torenberg 12:36 Yeah

Mark Cuban 12:36 ... nine hundred and forty-two to, you know, your taxes will go instead of twenty-seven percent, let's say-

Erik Torenberg 12:42 Yeah

Mark Cuban 12:42 ... you'll stay at twenty-one percent if everybody gets equity-

Erik Torenberg 12:46 Yeah

Mark Cuban 12:46 ... in the company.

Erik Torenberg 12:47 Right.

Mark Cuban 12:47 And it's on a-- pari passu is not the right word, but it's on an equal percentage of-

Erik Torenberg 12:52 Right

Mark Cuban 12:52 ... take-home pay-

Erik Torenberg 12:53 Yeah

Mark Cuban 12:54 ... um, that you get relative to the CEO-

Erik Torenberg 12:56 Yeah

Mark Cuban 12:56 ... down to whoever. Right? Now you, you know, you have, you have appreciable assets.

Erik Torenberg 13:00 Upside, yeah.

Mark Cuban 13:01 Yeah. And when, when people have appreciable assets, you know, beyond just a home, A, if it appreciates, they can buy a home.

Erik Torenberg 13:07 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 13:07 And B, the, the wealth gap doesn't increase.

Erik Torenberg 13:10 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 13:11 You know, and, and it gets closed down. You know, if you do go-- if you do a little research and, and-- 'cause I was just curious about all this, and I went to Ch- Perplexity, and I'm like, "What's the earnings of people who are in ESOPs, employee stock ownership plans-

Erik Torenberg 13:25 Yeah

Mark Cuban 13:25 ... versus everybody else?" It's dramatically higher.

Erik Torenberg 13:28 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 13:28 It's not even close.

Erik Torenberg 13:29 Right.

Mark Cuban 13:30 They make more than union employees.

Erik Torenberg 13:31 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 13:32 You know, because... And there's less turnover.

Erik Torenberg 13:34 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 13:34 And so there's a lot of good reasons, and you don't have to be in power as a Democrat to do those things, to go to the local employer-

Erik Torenberg 13:41 Yeah

Mark Cuban 13:41 ... and say, "Why-- You know, we're gonna protest you unless you create an ESOP plan that everybody gets to-

Erik Torenberg 13:47 Yeah

Mark Cuban 13:47 ... to participate in at the same level as a percentage of earnings as the CEO."

Erik Torenberg 13:51 I think that's the best form of UBI, which is instead of free money, just upside in our S&P 500, upside in the economy.

Mark Cuban 13:56 Yeah, and there's places-

Erik Torenberg 13:56 You align it

Mark Cuban 13:57 ... for UBI too, right?

Erik Torenberg 13:57 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 13:57 So if you're a caretaker-

Erik Torenberg 13:59 Right

Mark Cuban 13:59 ... you're taking care of your parents-

Erik Torenberg 14:00 Yeah

Mark Cuban 14:00 ... I got no problem with doing that-

Erik Torenberg 14:02 Yeah

Mark Cuban 14:02 ... 'cause you're paying for it one way or the other.

Erik Torenberg 14:03 Right.

Mark Cuban 14:03 You know, through Medicare-

Erik Torenberg 14:04 Yeah

Mark Cuban 14:04 ... and Medicaid some way.

Erik Torenberg 14:05 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 14:06 But to your point, right, appreciable assets change your life.

Erik Torenberg 14:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 14:10 And if you don't have any, there's no way you can keep up.

Erik Torenberg 14:13 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 14:13 You know, 'cause the stock market's going up.

Erik Torenberg 14:16 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 14:17 Do we think that... I guess, you know, d- it seems like the Mamdani sort of like socially progressive, economically, uh, populist, um, sort of, you know, combination, AOC in a different way, you know, Bernie without sort of, you know, he was the pertaversion. It-- is that the future of the Democratic Party?

Mark Cuban 14:35 Um, he learned from Trump.

Erik Torenberg 14:36 Yeah. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 14:37 He's the progressive Trump.

Erik Torenberg 14:38 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Cuban 14:39 Just lie.

Erik Torenberg 14:40 [laughing] Yeah.

Mark Cuban 14:42 You know.

Erik Torenberg 14:42 [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 14:43 Chea-- Day one, groceries are going to be cheaper. I'll just open, I'll open the grocery store 'cause I'll sound more progressive that way.

Erik Torenberg 14:49 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 14:49 Right? Day one, buses are free. And then everything else, he kind of mealy-mouthed back to the middle.

Erik Torenberg 14:55 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 14:55 You know, and kind of gives a little bit on the edge to, for the progressives to be happy.

Erik Torenberg 14:59 Right.

Mark Cuban 14:59 But he's smart. Starts saying, "I'm reducing grocery prices. Trump is increasing. I'm reducing them day one," right. "When we have the House back-

Erik Torenberg 15:07 Yeah

Mark Cuban 15:07 ... we are going to reduce grocery prices." How are you gonna do it? "Uh, we're going to do it, trust me." Because that's the bifurcation between Trump fans-

Erik Torenberg 15:15 Yeah

Mark Cuban 15:15 ... and Trump haters.

Erik Torenberg 15:16 But in terms of substance, do you think the future Democratic Party is more like a Bernie Sanders economic populism or do you think it's more-

Mark Cuban 15:22 I don't know

Erik Torenberg 15:22 ... you know, Mark Cuban?

Mark Cuban 15:23 I don't know.

Erik Torenberg 15:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 15:24 Yeah, I think, I think whatever gets results.

Erik Torenberg 15:26 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 15:26 You know, I give Bernie credit because he was the first to talking about a living wage.

Erik Torenberg 15:30 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 15:30 And it took him decades.

Erik Torenberg 15:32 Right.

Mark Cuban 15:32 But we've gotten there-

Erik Torenberg 15:33 Yeah

Mark Cuban 15:33 ... and he kept on push-pushing through, so he deserves a lot of credit. Um, but it more plays to his base-

Erik Torenberg 15:40 Yeah

Mark Cuban 15:40 ... than anything else. And, you know, Elizabeth Warren had the CF- CFPB, right?

Erik Torenberg 15:46 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 15:46 That's okay, right? You can argue both sides. But she got something done. Um, I don't know what the Democrats are doing that's getting shit done.

Erik Torenberg 15:54 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 15:54 You know, and that's the change in their focus, and that's what's going to guide what type of candidate.

Erik Torenberg 16:00 Right.

Mark Cuban 16:00 Because you gotta be able to sell.

Erik Torenberg 16:01 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 16:02 Gotta be-- understand technology and gotta be able to implement technologies. And I said this to Jason Calacanis 15 years ago maybe.

Erik Torenberg 16:10 Wow.

Mark Cuban 16:10 I'm like: Look, if we can improve efficiency and reduce the cost of government-

Erik Torenberg 16:14 Yeah

Mark Cuban 16:15 ... you can increase the money you give to people.

Erik Torenberg 16:16 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 16:17 Take half the savings, here's a bigger check.

Erik Torenberg 16:19 Wow.

Mark Cuban 16:19 Right? That's what the Democrats could be doing. We wanna give you more money.

Erik Torenberg 16:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 16:24 Right? That's what the Republicans do great. We're making a promise.

Erik Torenberg 16:26 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 16:26 Democrats, we're gonna use AI, and if we need to give it UBI, if we need to tax robot-

Erik Torenberg 16:30 Yeah

Mark Cuban 16:30 ... robots, we're gonna tax robots, you know, the whole Bill Gates thing-

Erik Torenberg 16:33 Yeah

Mark Cuban 16:33 ... a quarter hour, dollar an hour, whatever, and then we're gonna take the benefit of that and write you a check.

Erik Torenberg 16:38 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 16:38 That's gonna be your UBI or your tax credit or whatever. They just don't think like that.

Erik Torenberg 16:43 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 16:43 They don't think, "Where is the solution? How do I get there? How do I sell it in a form that's easy to digest so people-

Erik Torenberg 16:50 Yeah

Mark Cuban 16:50 ... understand it?" They don't get AI is, like, going to change everything.

Erik Torenberg 16:55 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 16:55 You know, how can we not use this in government to be more effective?

Erik Torenberg 17:00 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 17:01 It-- I mean, that's, that's the whole point, isn't

Mark Cuban 17:03 it?

Erik Torenberg 17:03 Right. Let, let's go deeper there 'cause I know AI is one of the things you wanted to chat about, something you spend a lot, a lot of time thinking about. When you look out at the next few years, what, what do you think is underappreciated or, or under-realized about how AI is going to change a specific category or a specific way of life?

Mark Cuban 17:17 I think it democratizes a lot of things.

Erik Torenberg 17:19 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 17:19 You know, particularly education. Um, while I understand the fear, and the first pass is never the way it ends up.

Erik Torenberg 17:27 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 17:27 You know, I got two kids in college now and one in high school. Hell yeah, they cheat with it.

Erik Torenberg 17:31 Yeah. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 17:32 You know? They do.

Erik Torenberg 17:34 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 17:34 But then I started talking to this teacher from Pennsylvania, I forget what town in Pennsylvania, and she just emailed me and she was like, "What can I do to integrate AI into my classroom where it's not just them giving me answers to questions?"

Erik Torenberg 17:45 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 17:45 And I said, "Well, you know, make it more like Jeopardy!"

Erik Torenberg 17:47 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 17:47 Right? And it-- she's like, "Well, okay, here are the four causes. You, use ChatGPT to find the four causes of the American Revolution-

Erik Torenberg 17:55 Yeah

Mark Cuban 17:55 ... and write up what this says, and then we're gonna discuss in class, a- and you pick which one do you think is the most impactful."

Erik Torenberg 18:01 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 18:01 "And then we'll discuss that in class." Just changing the paradigm of how they would do things. And so, but back to your question, I think d-democratization of education is key because a kid with a cell phone can... a, and internet access can go to, you know, any large language model and ask anything.

Erik Torenberg 18:19 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 18:20 And ask it to, you know, "Hey, I'm, I'm eight years old and I wanna learn to speak Polish 'cause my grandmother's from Poland."

Erik Torenberg 18:26 Right.

Mark Cuban 18:26 "Would you put together a class for me and give me, you know, and teach me how to speak Polish?"

Erik Torenberg 18:31 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 18:32 It will.

Erik Torenberg 18:32 Right.

Mark Cuban 18:33 How else are they gonna do that? You know, sign up for Duolingo?

Erik Torenberg 18:36 [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 18:36 Right? You know, you know, I'm, I'm really curious about baseball.

Erik Torenberg 18:40 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 18:41 Right. Who are the best baseball players and why?

Erik Torenberg 18:43 Right.

Mark Cuban 18:43 And, you know, teach me about the statistics behind it.

Erik Torenberg 18:45 Yeah. An always-on tutor, yeah, absolutely.

Erik Torenberg 18:49 How, how about in healthcare? It's an area you've spent a ton of time in with, with Cost Plus Drugs. Right now, you know, healthcare's, like, twenty percent or something of the economy.

Mark Cuban 18:56 Yep.

Erik Torenberg 18:56 In the future, is that number going higher? Is that number going lower? You know, talk about-

Mark Cuban 19:01 So-

Erik Torenberg 19:01 ... what's gonna happen there.

Mark Cuban 19:02 It'll go higher, but because we're gonna get some amazing treatments.

Erik Torenberg 19:06 Oh, interesting. So the product will get better, the service will get better.

Mark Cuban 19:08 Right. 'Cause now you get, you know, single treatment cures that might cost three million dollars.

Erik Torenberg 19:14 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 19:14 That, you know, that jacks up the total cost.

Erik Torenberg 19:17 Right.

Mark Cuban 19:17 But in terms of how we do healthcare, I-- everything I do, I put into ChatGPT project first.

Erik Torenberg 19:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 19:24 You know, and share it with the doctor, and then I ask my doctor, "Do you use this stuff or open evidence?"

Erik Torenberg 19:28 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 19:28 They're like, "Hell yeah, we do it."

Erik Torenberg 19:29 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 19:29 So I think healthcare will get better qualitatively. I think we'll be, uh, we'll benchmark ourselves a lot more, and that'll make us healthier-

Erik Torenberg 19:36 Yeah

Mark Cuban 19:36 ... in a lot of ways. I think where the challenge and the hard part is, other than the obvious, you know, optimization and processes in hospitals and all that, the challenge is how we value IP.

Erik Torenberg 19:48 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 19:49 Because if I'm MD Anderson, um, if I'm Stanford, any research hospital, any scientist in healthcare, you're an idiot if you publish it.

Erik Torenberg 19:57 Right.

Mark Cuban 19:57 You're an idiot if you patent it, because it's immediately going to get absorbed into a large language model.

Erik Torenberg 20:03 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 20:04 And you've lost control of it, and you've lost ownership of it. And I think what's going to happen is, you know, and I've said this as I've talked to CEOs of, of research hospitals, et cetera, "You need to silo your stuff."

Erik Torenberg 20:14 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 20:15 "And you need to take what you've siloed and either do your own model or put it out to bid."

Erik Torenberg 20:20 Right.

Mark Cuban 20:20 And let the, the foundational models compete, because they're in a death war.

Erik Torenberg 20:25 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 20:25 You know?

Erik Torenberg 20:26 And they need specialized data.

Mark Cuban 20:27 They need all the data they can get-

Erik Torenberg 20:28 Yeah

Mark Cuban 20:28 ... specialized or general.

Erik Torenberg 20:30 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 20:30 Right? 'Cause they... Everything that's accessible on the internet-

Erik Torenberg 20:33 Yeah

Mark Cuban 20:33 ... they're getting or got.

Erik Torenberg 20:34 Right.

Mark Cuban 20:34 And so the people who are creating new things, whether healthcare or anything for that matter, are gonna start siloing it and putting it out to bid, and I think even within the government, right?

Erik Torenberg 20:44 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 20:44 So we see all these research grants getting pulled.

Erik Torenberg 20:46 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 20:47 I told somebody I know, you know, in the administration, I'm like, "No, keep on doing it, but put it out to bid-

Erik Torenberg 20:53 Right

Mark Cuban 20:53 ... for people, you know, for the models to get access to it." Back to your question again, um, it will change because there'll be millions of models as opposed to just singular foundational models. And I think, I've talked to folks at Microsoft, Meta, and other places, I think they disagree with that.

Erik Torenberg 21:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 21:10 You know, that they think there's just all this information's gonna be available-

Erik Torenberg 21:13 Right

Mark Cuban 21:13 ... so that the hospital system or the university sy- whatever it is, or the, the grantors will just say, "Go ahead and take it."

Erik Torenberg 21:19 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 21:20 Hell no.

Erik Torenberg 21:20 So you think there'll be a flourishing of startups that will have k- kind of access to the specialized data and either put it to bid or-

Mark Cuban 21:25 Or, or just like MD Anderson will have their own large language model.

Erik Torenberg 21:28 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 21:28 You know, and you'll just have to, to know, um, where to go.

Erik Torenberg 21:32 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 21:33 And just like right now, you know, ChatGPT is not gonna give you the same answer as Perplexity, as Claude, et cetera. You're gonna go and use multiple of them, and you'll say, "Here's the input, the output I got here, here, here."

Erik Torenberg 21:42 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 21:42 And you'll put it in somewhere else to have them-

Erik Torenberg 21:44 Right

Mark Cuban 21:44 ... assemble it. Um, but I think there'll be millions of models.

Erik Torenberg 21:48 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 21:48 And there'll be front ends for those models that can't go out and do a million of them, but that help curate what's best

Mark Cuban 21:55 for what you're trying to accomplish.

Erik Torenberg 21:56 If you could wave a wand and change anything about how we do healthcare i, in this country or where we can learn from other countries that... W- what would you change?

Mark Cuban 22:02 You get rid of the insurance companies and the PBMs.

Erik Torenberg 22:04 Hmm.

Mark Cuban 22:05 Because they do all they can to not take risk.

Erik Torenberg 22:08 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 22:09 And they do all they can to introduce opacity to the system. And if you look at, you know, particularly on the drug side, if you look at all the other countries, we're trying to do MFNs to match their pricing.

Erik Torenberg 22:21 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 22:21 They don't have PBMs.

Erik Torenberg 22:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 22:23 You know, when you look at the internals, the biggest PBMs cause all the problems. Like, literally, um, we get emails all the time, people who are on Medicare Part D for, um, drugs come to Cost Plus Drugs 'cause we're cheaper than their co-pays.

Erik Torenberg 22:39 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 22:40 That makes no sense, but it's the federal government that approves those plans, and those plans in Medicare Part D are run by i- individual insurance companies. Then if you look on a bigger, um, platform just for healthcare in general, you know, think about how ca- healthcare works here, a- age of sixty. You have an insurance company.

Erik Torenberg 22:59 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 23:00 You... Do you guys self-insure? Do you know?

Erik Torenberg 23:01 I just joined, so I'm gonna [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 23:02 Oh, you're... Okay.

Erik Torenberg 23:03 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 23:03 So, you know-

Erik Torenberg 23:04 Yeah

Mark Cuban 23:04 ... let's just pretend you self-insure.

Erik Torenberg 23:06 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 23:06 You're one of the bigger companies.

Erik Torenberg 23:06 Sure.

Mark Cuban 23:07 So an insurance company comes to you knowing you self-insure.

Erik Torenberg 23:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 23:09 Right? And they put together a list of plans.

Erik Torenberg 23:12 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 23:12 And then those plans, no one ever asks why were those plans defined the way they were.

Erik Torenberg 23:17 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 23:18 They just assume we just get our choice of plans, and we pick them.

Erik Torenberg 23:20 Right.

Mark Cuban 23:21 Well, there's an inverse relationship between premium and deductible.

Erik Torenberg 23:24 Mm-hmm.

Mark Cuban 23:25 Right? They never check, do credit checks on the deductibles, do they? And younger g- younger people, they're taking the higher deductibles 'cause they presume they're gonna be, um, healthier. But the people who are making the determination that they're using the higher deductible plan, half of them don't have enough money for the deductible.

Erik Torenberg 23:43 Right.

Mark Cuban 23:43 Right? So we've got an insurance system driven by these insurance companies, even if the risk is absorbed by companies or partially by the f- taxpayers, right, that are designing plans that they know the people who are buying the plans can't afford to utilize.

Erik Torenberg 23:57 Hmm.

Mark Cuban 23:58 And what happens then? That turns the hospital into a subprime lender.

Erik Torenberg 24:02 Right.

Mark Cuban 24:02 Because now they go in either through the re- emergency room, or they show up not knowing what their deductible is, and then the hospital will loan them money because they want them to reach the, be able to pay the deductible, so then they can then charge the insurance company-

Erik Torenberg 24:15 Yeah

Mark Cuban 24:15 ... or the employer if they're self-insured. But wait, there's more, right? So then let's just say someone went in, gets a hip replacement, pays their five thousand dollar deductible, and they own ten thousand dollars, right? The insurance company, even though they have a contract that says it's fifteen thousand dollars between the provider and the-

Erik Torenberg 24:31 Yeah

Mark Cuban 24:31 ... payer, the insurance company, they don't just write the check for ten thousand dollars.

Erik Torenberg 24:35 Hmm.

Mark Cuban 24:35 Right? They say, "We'll give you seven thousand."If you don't like it, come and get us. And so when you talk to a hospital CFO, they're like, "We lose three to five percent."

Erik Torenberg 24:44 Wow.

Mark Cuban 24:44 "We can lose as much as fifty percent on the subprime lending," you know, and so they have to event all these costs to compensate for what's happening on the other side on the payment process. Then, of course, you have the pre-authorizations, and most of the pre-authorizations get approved after everything is said and done, but they get the time value of the money of the premium and not having to pay it, and they've eaten up all these doctors' time. And the doctors are the ones getting underpaid. So you're going in for a heart transplant, and, you know, the doctor might make ten thousand dollars unless it's a big name phys- you know, s-surgeon. I want my doctor making a shit ton of money, right, to make sure that, you know.

Erik Torenberg 25:20 Right.

Mark Cuban 25:21 Um, so you have this connectivity between all the pieces that really hasn't been thought out.

Erik Torenberg 25:27 Right.

Mark Cuban 25:28 And those insurance companies either own the PBMs or are owned by the PBMs. And what they do, because they're together and they also are vertically integrated, own clinics and hospital, not necessarily hospitals, but clinics and other providers, right? So they have all these intercompany transfers that allow them to game the system. So with the ACA, you, depending on the circumstances, the, um, the insurer has to pay out eighty to eighty-five percent.

Erik Torenberg 25:55 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 25:55 It called the medical loss ratio.

Erik Torenberg 25:57 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 25:57 And so y-you would think that's just straightforward, but if you're vertically integrated-

Erik Torenberg 26:01 Yeah

Mark Cuban 26:02 ... you can put some over here, put all the profits into your PBM-

Erik Torenberg 26:06 Right

Mark Cuban 26:06 ... and show that you've spent all this money 'cause you wrote that check to the PBM.

Erik Torenberg 26:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 26:10 And so that's what happens. W-the, one of the biggest, um, insurance companies, um, had a hundred and sixty-one billion dollars-

Erik Torenberg 26:20 Wow

Mark Cuban 26:21 ... of intercompany transfers.

Erik Torenberg 26:22 Oh, my God.

Mark Cuban 26:23 Intercompany transfers. That's point three percent of our GDP.

Erik Torenberg 26:28 Wow. Just moving money around to make more money.

Mark Cuban 26:30 Just moving money around to make more money.

Erik Torenberg 26:32 So if you'd get rid of them, would you-- who should take the risk? Would you replace anything?

Mark Cuban 26:36 So yeah. So it's a great question, right? So healthcare is easy, right? Presuming, you know, if you get the right doctor and everything, you go to the doctor, and they tell you what's right or wrong, right? Go home. Wrong? Okay, what do I need? Then once you know what you need, there's only two questions, whether it's medication, surgery, whatever it is. How much does it cost, and how do you pay for it?

Erik Torenberg 26:56 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 26:57 CostPlusDrugs.com is still the only pharmacy company that publishes an entire price list. The only one-

Erik Torenberg 27:02 Mm

Mark Cuban 27:02 ... and we've been in business three and a half years. That in and of itself is crazy. But then once you get into the system, right, and you don't know what anything costs, then they can charge you whatever. And then in terms of how do you pay for it, that's the who takes the risk.

Erik Torenberg 27:17 Right.

Mark Cuban 27:18 And so h-deductibles are going up no matter whether it's Medicare Part D, even Medicare Part A and B have higher deductibles. Medicare Advantage, they shrink the network and create networks. So out-of-pocket's going up. So patients are the first line of defense that the insurance companies will try to push the risk on.

Erik Torenberg 27:35 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 27:35 But better in my mind is to combine kind of a market where you get rid of the insurance companies, there's no premiums. Get rid of the big PBMs, there's no, you know, um, manipulation, if you will, of the, the funds, um, or with intercompany transfers. And you say to, um... You create tools that allow patients or their employers working with them to go out there and find the best solution for them and to shop. And hopefully, you've saved a lot of money from your, um, not paying premiums, and you can pay for what you need. But what you can't pay, the government will loan you that money if it stays within the price parameters that have been set. So it's negotiating without negotiating, right?

Erik Torenberg 28:20 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 28:20 And they've done that to a certain extent, reference-based pricing with Medicare, you know, and Medicaid, um, for Medicaid, um, patients. And so now, if you or I can pay for it, we just pay for it. But we've saved all that money in not paying premiums. And slowly but surely, we're getting, um, more and more reinsurance options-

Erik Torenberg 28:38 Yeah

Mark Cuban 28:38 ... for individuals, so for catastrophic insurance. So, you know, in case, God forbid, the worst thing happens, you have an option. So that's one place of risk. But if you're not paying premiums to an insurance company, you can pay for your reinsurance.

Erik Torenberg 28:50 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 28:51 And then if your hip replacement's fifteen thousand and you have three thousand, you can use financing, but it's guaranteed by the government.

Erik Torenberg 28:58 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 28:58 Kind of like we do with college. You know, you can use the financing the school has-

Erik Torenberg 29:03 Yeah

Mark Cuban 29:03 ... right? But it's guaranteed by the government. Kind of like we do with houses.

Erik Torenberg 29:06 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 29:06 You can use the, the mortgage plan, but it's guaranteed by the government.

Erik Torenberg 29:10 Right.

Mark Cuban 29:11 The most important thing that we have available to us, our healthcare, the government's like, "Whatever."

Erik Torenberg 29:16 Right.

Mark Cuban 29:17 You know? So if you take the risk and allocate it within a, a price control, um, price control is the right, wrong word. Um, but if you want, if, if you're s- if you're a patient, you're shopping for care, and it stays within the benchmarks that are set, then go for it. If you wanna spend more-

Erik Torenberg 29:33 Yeah

Mark Cuban 29:33 ... right, you think the doctor doesn't participate and you wanna get better, go for it. But then all of a sudden, you've got all this money that's not being paid in premiums that's available to people to use-

Erik Torenberg 29:43 Yeah

Mark Cuban 29:43 ... to save, whatever.

Erik Torenberg 29:43 Right.

Mark Cuban 29:44 That's how I would look at it.

Erik Torenberg 29:45 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 29:46 The, so you've built Cost Plus Drugs partially because you have this, well, you care about it obviously. Uh, you have this distribution advantage. You have the capital advantage to get it started. Um, let's imagine if you were a young entrepreneur, you know, a mid-twentysomething Mark Cuban in, in twenty twenty-five and trying to, you know, be immensely successful like you've been. How, how would you think about that? Or what, what would you pursue?

Mark Cuban 30:05 For Cost Plus Drugs or just in general?

Erik Torenberg 30:06 No, no, no. You as entrepreneur.

Mark Cuban 30:07 Oh. Like, if I was just getting out of college right now?

Erik Torenberg 30:09 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Cuban 30:09 Oh, I'd be all AI every day.

Erik Torenberg 30:11 Yeah, yeah.

Mark Cuban 30:11 Right? Um, 'cause I think the disconnect, I think employment for computer science graduates, and I said this ten years ago, I got crushed. Twenty seventeen actually. I said, "You know, AI is gonna put programmers-

Erik Torenberg 30:22 Hmm

Mark Cuban 30:22 ... out of business at the early-

Erik Torenberg 30:23 Yeah

Mark Cuban 30:24 ... um, beginning stage programmers." Um, and people said, "Oh, you're an idiot." But now big companies are gonna find ways to use AI.

Erik Torenberg 30:31 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 30:31 So they're, they're gonna reduce. You saw Salesforce or wherever laid off people. Um, small companies have no clue.

Erik Torenberg 30:37 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 30:38 You know, and there are only twenty-two thousand company-- I remember this from the Kama- Kamala campaign. Twenty-two thousand companies with five hundred or more employees.

Erik Torenberg 30:45 Hmm.

Mark Cuban 30:46 Thirty millionRight. Now, a lot of them are single entrepreneurs, but, you know, five million have five hundred or less. That's where you want to go try to get a job.

Erik Torenberg 30:56 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 30:56 Because if you're AI native, because you've been using it through your four years of college-

Erik Torenberg 31:00 Yeah

Mark Cuban 31:00 ... or two years le- you know, or, you know, two years from now, having had four years experience, they need you.

Erik Torenberg 31:06 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 31:07 You know, maybe they have one person who's picked it up, two people.

Erik Torenberg 31:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 31:09 But if you have a business background, which you can learn in school, and you become an AI native, you can walk into a small company and say, "I can help you."

Erik Torenberg 31:18 Right.

Mark Cuban 31:18 "I can create agents for you that'll go out and look for things." We had, um... One of my Shark Tank companies is Rebel Cheese, and they added a, um, direct-to-consumer business, and they created an agent that compares the weight that comes off a scale for what they're saying or the box type, and what they were invoiced by, um, UPS or FedEx and compared to the price list. Always got overcharged. Always.

Erik Torenberg 31:44 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 31:44 This little company is saving, you know, thousands of dollars a week just by using an agent, you know, and it was not anything difficult-

Erik Torenberg 31:52 Yeah

Mark Cuban 31:52 ... or, or you know, advanced. So being able to walk into a company and say, "I can do this. I can do this. I can do this."

Erik Torenberg 32:00 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 32:00 It's no different than what systems integrators have done for decades.

Erik Torenberg 32:04 Right.

Mark Cuban 32:04 You know, that's what I did in my first company, Micro Solutions.

Erik Torenberg 32:06 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 32:07 You don't understand PCs. You're a small company. I do.

Erik Torenberg 32:09 Right.

Mark Cuban 32:09 I know networks. I can program. I'm gonna write you an application that emulates what you're doing, but faster.

Erik Torenberg 32:15 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 32:15 Now it's no longer about emulation.

Erik Torenberg 32:17 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 32:17 Those days are gone. It's about how do we change the process-

Erik Torenberg 32:21 Right

Mark Cuban 32:21 ... by removing pieces to make you more efficient, more productive, more profitable.

Erik Torenberg 32:25 Yeah. So you rode the PC wave, as you say, then you rode the internet wave with the, with broadband, you know, had, had a big outcome there. If, if you were starting a company today, would, would you try to build a foundation model company or vertical application or...?

Mark Cuban 32:35 No, neither.

Erik Torenberg 32:36 Yeah. What would you do?

Mark Cuban 32:37 Um, 'cause they're all gonna be customized.

Erik Torenberg 32:38 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 32:39 I literally would hone my business skills as much as possible.

Erik Torenberg 32:42 Right.

Mark Cuban 32:43 Um, domain knowledge will be more va-

Erik Torenberg 32:45 Interesting

Mark Cuban 32:45 ... domain novel-- knowledge combined with understanding of AI-

Erik Torenberg 32:49 Yeah

Mark Cuban 32:49 ... is the win.

Erik Torenberg 32:50 Right. So you would go with some sector that hasn't yet been disrupted by AI and build-

Mark Cuban 32:53 Or just small companies-

Erik Torenberg 32:54 Yeah

Mark Cuban 32:55 ... you know, regardless of sector.

Erik Torenberg 32:56 Yeah. But if you wanted to start something that could be big one day.

Mark Cuban 32:58 Right. 'Cause if I work with one shoe company-

Erik Torenberg 33:00 Yeah

Mark Cuban 33:00 ... and I analyze what they do-

Erik Torenberg 33:02 Right

Mark Cuban 33:02 ... then I say, "Okay, I'm gonna charge you X per transaction-

Erik Torenberg 33:05 Yeah

Mark Cuban 33:05 ... and I'm gonna do the agent for you, and I'm gonna monitor the agents."

Erik Torenberg 33:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 33:09 It's SaaS at one level.

Erik Torenberg 33:10 Right.

Mark Cuban 33:11 Right? But it's customized SaaS, where it, you know, and as AI advances, the, the model advances and the agent advances. And so, you know, factories, you know, talking now, like-

Erik Torenberg 33:20 Yeah

Mark Cuban 33:20 ... at Cost Plus Drugs, we have, um, a robotics factory.

Erik Torenberg 33:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 33:24 And we use AI agents to monitor everything.

Erik Torenberg 33:26 Right.

Mark Cuban 33:26 You know, and our cost to, to run the factory is a fraction of pretty much everybody other than India and China, and we'll catch up to them.

Erik Torenberg 33:33 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 33:34 You know, and so understanding how business works, having that domain knowledge, and then being able to apply it, and then being able to scale it by taking it to all those companies in similar circumstances, or creating agents that modify the agents based off of the information you're getting from all your customer companies.

Erik Torenberg 33:51 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 33:51 That's the new SaaS, potentially.

Erik Torenberg 33:53 Yeah. Totally.

Erik Torenberg 33:54 I wanna zoom out and talk just general business s-success and advice. The internet lists your net worth, I believe, at o-over eight, eight billion or-

Mark Cuban 34:01 I don't know

Erik Torenberg 34:01 ... or something to that effect. Uh, but one thing that, you know, typically when, when people become super wealthy, it's because of like one big thing.

Mark Cuban 34:08 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 34:08 But it seems like you've sort of compounded w-we-wealth in decades, and I, I think the biggest liquidity events, though, though I may have them wrong, are the, the company you sold and the, the factor-

Mark Cuban 34:16 And the, and the Mavs. Yeah

Erik Torenberg 34:17 ... and, and so, and then there've been other, other effort. What do you think is the thread, the through line, when you look at your career and the ways in which you've made money, um, that others can learn from?

Mark Cuban 34:26 I look at business as a sport.

Erik Torenberg 34:28 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:28 Right? And I just love to compete.

Erik Torenberg 34:29 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:30 You know, and that keeps me going just... You know, there's always something new and always something changing, and it's almost like the, the forums, right? I j- I just like to be intellectually challenged.

Erik Torenberg 34:39 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:40 When I first started, I was always the youngest guy walking in the room.

Erik Torenberg 34:42 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:42 Now I'm the oldest guy walking in the room.

Erik Torenberg 34:43 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:44 And I like kicking everybody's ass where I can, right?

Erik Torenberg 34:46 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:46 You know, you went, you got your CS degree from Harvard.

Erik Torenberg 34:49 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:49 Fuck you. I don't care, right?

Erik Torenberg 34:50 [laughs]

Mark Cuban 34:50 Sounds like Glenn Garrity doing Ross. Um...

Erik Torenberg 34:52 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:53 You know, but I, I like that challenge.

Erik Torenberg 34:55 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 34:55 And I understand patterns, and I understand being able to create new things, and I think that's served me w-really well. It's like Cost Plus Drugs.

Erik Torenberg 35:04 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 35:04 You know, we launched in January of twenty twenty-two. We're serving millions of customers.

Erik Torenberg 35:08 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 35:09 We're changing people's lives.

Erik Torenberg 35:10 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 35:10 And everybody thought I was an idiot. You know-

Erik Torenberg 35:13 Yeah

Mark Cuban 35:13 ... you're ta- And we're working outside the system.

Erik Torenberg 35:15 Right.

Mark Cuban 35:15 We're, you know, everybody-- Amazon, everybody else, "Okay, we're gonna work with the big PBMs-

Erik Torenberg 35:19 Yeah

Mark Cuban 35:19 ... 'cause that's where the money is." And I'm like, "No. They're the problem."

Erik Torenberg 35:22 Right. Yeah.

Mark Cuban 35:22 You don't work with the problem.

Erik Torenberg 35:23 Right.

Mark Cuban 35:24 You know, it's the innovator's dilemma.

Erik Torenberg 35:25 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 35:25 You know, we're gonna take what they can't do and, you know, when you run with the elephants, there's the quick and the dead.

Erik Torenberg 35:30 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 35:30 We gotta be quick and, and aggressive-

Erik Torenberg 35:32 Yeah

Mark Cuban 35:32 ... and, and so I think that's a big part of my skill set.

Erik Torenberg 35:35 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 35:35 You know, whether it's starting AudioNet, which is the first streaming company, HDNet, the first all high-def network, um, you know, Cost Plus Drugs, what I do with the Mavs in terms-

Erik Torenberg 35:44 Right

Mark Cuban 35:45 ... of bringing in technology, it was always about... You know, Steve Jobs said it best, "Everything's a remix."

Erik Torenberg 35:49 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 35:49 You know, it's about taking what I know-

Erik Torenberg 35:51 Right

Mark Cuban 35:51 ... and just learning whatever's coming up and what new technologies and remixing it to apply to something different.

Erik Torenberg 35:56 Right. Did-- When you bought the Mavs, did you have a sense that twenty years later it could be, you know, worth an order of magnitude more?

Mark Cuban 36:02 No.

Erik Torenberg 36:02 It wasn't a business decision. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 36:03 No, no, no. In fact, like I paid two hundred and eighty-five million for the Mavs in two thousand. In two thousand and ten, the NBA couldn't even sell the New Orleans franchise.

Erik Torenberg 36:12 Really?

Mark Cuban 36:12 There were no buyers.

Erik Torenberg 36:14 Wow.

Mark Cuban 36:14 And the valuation had gone down-

Erik Torenberg 36:16 Wow

Mark Cuban 36:16 ... not up. It wasn't until-

Erik Torenberg 36:18 So you thought it was a bad purchase from, from a financial perspective?

Mark Cuban 36:19 From a financial perspective, it was awful.

Erik Torenberg 36:21 Wow.

Mark Cuban 36:21 Right. Plus, I was losing money every year, so it had nothing to do with money.

Erik Torenberg 36:25 Wow. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 36:25 Um, but I loved it, right?

Erik Torenberg 36:26 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 36:26 That was the key part.

Erik Torenberg 36:28 And it, and I think it elevated your profile in a way that probably helped your other businesses.

Mark Cuban 36:30 Oh, for sure. Oh, yeah, for sure.

Erik Torenberg 36:31 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 36:32 Um, and then Shark-- that got me to Shark Tank, and the rest is history. Um, but, you know-I just-- The way I looked at it back then is I'm having fun, I'm blessed, right? I'm gonna make the use of my time, so I enjoy every minute of it. But what changed the economics of the NBA was, you know, linear media being competitive.

Erik Torenberg 36:52 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 36:52 You know, and that goes back, you know, things I look for. I always look for death wars.

Erik Torenberg 36:56 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 36:56 Right? Where you've got competitors that one's gonna win and one's gonna lose-

Erik Torenberg 37:00 Right.

Mark Cuban 37:00 -and they have to go all in.

Erik Torenberg 37:01 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 37:02 Just like with AI right now.

Erik Torenberg 37:03 Right.

Mark Cuban 37:04 They all... They're spending tens of billions of dollars a year.

Erik Torenberg 37:07 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 37:07 There's, there's... You know, they're making obscene amount of cash flow, and they're spending it all.

Erik Torenberg 37:11 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 37:11 Right? They're paying a billion dollars to people to come over.

Erik Torenberg 37:14 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 37:14 Right? What does that tell you?

Erik Torenberg 37:15 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 37:16 That anything you can sell to them that really differentiates them-

Erik Torenberg 37:20 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 37:20 -they're going to buy. And so, but, you know, with the Mavs, it was... I didn't see it as an investment, but it wasn't until the death wars hit linear television-

Erik Torenberg 37:28 Right.

Mark Cuban 37:28 -and then all the TV deals went skyrocketing.

Erik Torenberg 37:30 So that's what made it, you know-- The difference between twenty twenty-five and twenty twenty-- and two thousand and ten in terms of why the NBA teams have gotten so much vali-more valuable is, is TV.

Mark Cuban 37:37 Hundred percent. Yeah, a little bit of real estate-

Erik Torenberg 37:40 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 37:40 -so you can build around.

Erik Torenberg 37:41 Right.

Mark Cuban 37:41 Um, but, um, it's a hundred percent streaming/TV.

Erik Torenberg 37:45 Awesome.

Mark Cuban 37:45 The question becomes, what-- you know, how long does this sustain?

Erik Torenberg 37:48 Right.

Mark Cuban 37:49 You know, if, if you look at... So, like, Major League Baseball didn't get a deal done with ESPN and saw their rates start to decline.

Erik Torenberg 37:56 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 37:57 But it was right around the time, I think it was Peacock who bought just one NFL playoff game.

Erik Torenberg 38:01 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 38:01 You know, and got like a hundred thousand new subscri-- or a million, a hundred million-

Erik Torenberg 38:05 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 38:05 -new subscribers. Something ridiculous, right?

Erik Torenberg 38:07 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 38:07 That all of a sudden set a benchmark. So this season, right, starting with the NBA season-

Erik Torenberg 38:13 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 38:13 -how well that does in terms of driving subscriptions and reducing churn, that's gonna make or break-

Erik Torenberg 38:19 Fascinating.

Mark Cuban 38:19 -everything that comes forward-

Erik Torenberg 38:21 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 38:21 -for all sports.

Erik Torenberg 38:23 Yeah. I also wonder if, you know, one thesis I have is, uh, that, uh, you know, value capture will reflect value creation. It just-- when the market gets more efficient and so... And NBA players, it seems like, don't have equity in, in, in the league, and I, I wonder if, uh, in the future, they're gonna band together and just say-

Mark Cuban 38:38 I don't think you can.

Erik Torenberg 38:39 Right.

Mark Cuban 38:39 Right? Because Father Time's undefeated.

Erik Torenberg 38:41 Hmm.

Mark Cuban 38:41 You know, so at what point do you stop?

Erik Torenberg 38:43 Right.

Mark Cuban 38:44 And, um, the, the price of the franchises now are so high. I mean, how much can you give them, right?

Erik Torenberg 38:51 Right.

Mark Cuban 38:51 And I don't, I don't... I'm not gonna say it's never going to happen.

Erik Torenberg 38:55 Right.

Mark Cuban 38:55 But, you know, I think it could be a question. But the other, the other point is that there's only, like, two players that fill an arena.

Erik Torenberg 39:02 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:03 Steph and LeBron.

Erik Torenberg 39:04 Right.

Mark Cuban 39:04 Like, when Luka played for the Mavs, and that had nothing to do with the trade. When Luka traded-

Erik Torenberg 39:08 We'll get to that scene.

Mark Cuban 39:08 Yeah. When Luka played for the Mavs, we didn't play to sold-out buildings that day.

Erik Torenberg 39:11 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:11 He would draw fans, don't get me wrong.

Erik Torenberg 39:13 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:13 But not every building was sold out. When Giannis would come to Dallas, didn't necessarily mean we were gonna sell out.

Erik Torenberg 39:18 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:18 But the whole concept of what drives, um, attendance has changed-

Erik Torenberg 39:25 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:25 -dramatically, and what drives viewership on television, in particular because now f-um, fans are fans of the players-

Erik Torenberg 39:32 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:32 -more than they are the teams.

Erik Torenberg 39:33 Right.

Mark Cuban 39:33 Like, when we grew up, it was like you were... I, I grew up in Pittsburgh, so you're a Steelers fan.

Erik Torenberg 39:37 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:37 You're a Pirates fan.

Erik Torenberg 39:38 That, that's why I wonder if they're gonna team up and say, "Hey, you know," Wembanyama, "the new generation, you know, we could-

Mark Cuban 39:43 Yep.

Erik Torenberg 39:43 -start a new league and get-"

Mark Cuban 39:44 Cooper Flaggs.

Erik Torenberg 39:44 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:44 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 39:45 Exactly.

Mark Cuban 39:45 It's expensive-

Erik Torenberg 39:46 Right. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 39:46 -to start a new league.

Erik Torenberg 39:47 Yeah, there's a lot of infrastructure. Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:48 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 39:48 The NBA is its own-

Mark Cuban 39:50 And even with Caitlin Clark, I don't know all the WNBA numbers now.

Erik Torenberg 39:53 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:53 But most of them aren't making money.

Erik Torenberg 39:54 Right.

Mark Cuban 39:55 Even in the NBA, most teams aren't making money-

Erik Torenberg 39:56 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 39:56 -before revenue share.

Erik Torenberg 39:57 Right. The, um... I know that you were dismayed at the Luka trade. We were sort of in the group chat wh-when it happened.

Mark Cuban 40:03 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 40:03 But I just wanna reflect. Yeah, I w-

Erik Torenberg 40:05 I was so devastated by, by it that it seemed so unfair for the, the Mavs not to get picks back or Austin Reaves or whatever. I don't wanna really-

Mark Cuban 40:12 [laughs]

Erik Torenberg 40:12 I was complaining to my girlfriend at the time, [chuckles] you know, like many people were. And I, I even remember reading this, this conspiracy theory that it was on purpose to take-

Mark Cuban 40:20 So that-

Erik Torenberg 40:20 -the value of the franchise to then move to, you know-

Mark Cuban 40:23 To Vegas?

Erik Torenberg 40:23 -Las Vegas. Yeah.

Mark Cuban 40:24 Yeah, no.

Erik Torenberg 40:24 And I was like, "Oh, this is the only way it can make sense." [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 40:26 No.

Erik Torenberg 40:26 How do we not get more for Luka in the, in this trade?

Mark Cuban 40:28 I wish I knew.

Erik Torenberg 40:29 [laughs]

Mark Cuban 40:29 I wish I knew.

Erik Torenberg 40:30 But, but then the Cooper Flagg thing, I mean, it's a... [laughs] The world works mysterious-

Mark Cuban 40:33 The basketball gods, yeah. The basketball gods were looking kindly upon us.

Erik Torenberg 40:36 Yeah, world works in, uh, in mysterious ways, but... So I have a dream to be a part-owner someday as, as well.

Mark Cuban 40:40 Uh-huh.

Erik Torenberg 40:40 And I've wondered if, if the strategy is either to compete for a championship or do the Oklahoma City Thunder, where you trade for picks.

Mark Cuban 40:48 So-

Erik Torenberg 40:48 What do you think?

Mark Cuban 40:49 I think the Thunder methodology is better now-

Erik Torenberg 40:51 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 40:51 -with the new CBA.

Erik Torenberg 40:52 Right.

Mark Cuban 40:53 Um, every new CBA creates transitional issues-

Erik Torenberg 40:56 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 40:57 -where your, your decisions were made in a legacy environment-

Erik Torenberg 41:00 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:00 -and they just changed all the rules.

Erik Torenberg 41:02 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:02 And now it's even more difficult with the second apron-

Erik Torenberg 41:06 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:06 -because the, the problems of being over the second apron are far more draconian than anything-

Erik Torenberg 41:12 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:12 -we've ever seen.

Erik Torenberg 41:13 Right.

Mark Cuban 41:13 And so I think the patience approach that San, that San Antonio and OKC have taken-

Erik Torenberg 41:19 Yep.

Mark Cuban 41:19 -is going to, to lead the way.

Erik Torenberg 41:22 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:23 Um, whereas with me, I was never patient.

Erik Torenberg 41:25 Right.

Mark Cuban 41:25 And that worked against me a lot too.

Erik Torenberg 41:26 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:26 You know, I wanted to win now, win now. We have Dirk, let's get there-

Erik Torenberg 41:29 Right.

Mark Cuban 41:29 -win now. Um-

Erik Torenberg 41:30 What's something you would've done differently?

Mark Cuban 41:32 Recruited Steve Nash. Um-

Erik Torenberg 41:33 [laughs]

Mark Cuban 41:34 But-

Erik Torenberg 41:34 Drafted Giannis.

Mark Cuban 41:35 Drafted Giannis, yeah. Um, I, I think I just would've been more patient and waited guys out-

Erik Torenberg 41:43 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:43 -to see how they turn out.

Erik Torenberg 41:44 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:44 Rather than, "Okay, I'm gonna throw in a draft pick." 'Cause at the time, you could say if you didn't have a pick from fifteen, uh, befo- below fifteen-

Erik Torenberg 41:51 Right.

Mark Cuban 41:51 -the odds of them being a player-

Erik Torenberg 41:52 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:53 -was minimal.

Erik Torenberg 41:54 Right.

Mark Cuban 41:54 And so if I was getting somebody that I could all reevaluate, that worked in my favor.

Erik Torenberg 41:58 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 41:59 But now draft picks have become so much more valuable.

Erik Torenberg 42:01 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 42:02 And so that's changed the, um, valuation approach.

Erik Torenberg 42:04 Right. I heard one argument that I was somewhat sympathetic to, which is, hey, the, the, the argument for how you can understand a Luka trade is, you know, obviously legendary, iconic player, but so expensive. And with the way that the contracts were structured is if you gave, you know, kept giving him the super max, how much room do you have to build a team? It's kind of like the Trae Young pro... Like, some of these players-

Mark Cuban 42:21 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 42:21 -are so expensive, but are you really gonna win a championship if you don't have-

Mark Cuban 42:23 Yeah, it's not... It's like, can you have two max players?

Erik Torenberg 42:26 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 42:27 And that's the challenge.

Erik Torenberg 42:28 Right.

Mark Cuban 42:28 You know, in the past, you could reward somebody with a max contract-

Erik Torenberg 42:31 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 42:32 -knowing you had some wiggle room.

Erik Torenberg 42:33 Right.

Mark Cuban 42:33 And more importantly, you can always find a way to get off that contract.

Erik Torenberg 42:37 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 42:38 Not anymore. That-

Erik Torenberg 42:39 Right

Mark Cuban 42:39 ...

Mark Cuban 42:40 y- if you have your one generational player, you pay him whatever it takes.

Erik Torenberg 42:43 Right.

Mark Cuban 42:43 Because, because of the, the max contracts, they by definition are undervalued.

Erik Torenberg 42:47 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 42:48 So the, the generational player, you always pay whatever it takes. It's the next person, if they're not a generational player, how do you deal with that?

Erik Torenberg 42:55 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 42:56 That's the hard part. And when you see, like you saw with certain players, that teams couldn't get off of them-

Erik Torenberg 43:01 Yeah

Mark Cuban 43:02 ... either because of age or, you know, they were a max player by the rules of the game eight years ago-

Erik Torenberg 43:07 Yeah

Mark Cuban 43:07 ... four years ago, but they're not any longer. That's where the challenges happen.

Erik Torenberg 43:10 Right. If you were making decisions for the Mavs now, uh, given where everything is, w- how... what would you be thinking about, or the big questions or?

Mark Cuban 43:17 Develop Cooper-

Erik Torenberg 43:18 Yeah

Mark Cuban 43:18 ... first and foremost.

Erik Torenberg 43:19 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 43:19 You know, um, now we, we've got AD, we've got Anthony Davis, we've got Kyrie who'll be coming back, but just ha- and Klay, just having those Hall of Famers there-

Erik Torenberg 43:26 Yeah

Mark Cuban 43:27 ... you couldn't ask for anything better in terms of-

Erik Torenberg 43:28 Right

Mark Cuban 43:28 ... development support.

Erik Torenberg 43:29 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 43:30 And so I think we, we have to focus on staying healthy-

Erik Torenberg 43:33 Yeah

Mark Cuban 43:33 ... getting Kyrie back. Um-

Erik Torenberg 43:35 It's interesting with two timelines. You know-

Mark Cuban 43:37 Yeah. Two tim-

Erik Torenberg 43:37 ... the Warriors tried to do it, but they couldn't exactly pull it off, um, although they've done great. [chuckles] But these sort of, you know, older players and then, you know, Cooper-

Mark Cuban 43:43 It's hard, like where the Warriors are now.

Erik Torenberg 43:45 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 43:45 You know?

Erik Torenberg 43:46 Totally.

Mark Cuban 43:46 Father Time is undefeated-

Erik Torenberg 43:47 Yeah

Mark Cuban 43:47 ... and you're trying to stay committed to the guy who's got you there.

Erik Torenberg 43:51 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 43:51 You know? Um, and he's n- they're, the players aren't dumb.

Erik Torenberg 43:54 Right.

Mark Cuban 43:55 You know? So they know they only have, you know, a finite-

Erik Torenberg 43:57 Right

Mark Cuban 43:57 ... number of years left.

Erik Torenberg 43:58 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 43:58 And so they're trying to maximize their earnings in that point, in that, during that period. Um, it's just hard. And so, you know, the whole second apron restrictions really just kicked in last year.

Erik Torenberg 44:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 44:09 And so now teams are having to, to deal with it. And so y- you're seeing players get stretched, you know, not just Wade, but stretched.

Erik Torenberg 44:17 Right.

Mark Cuban 44:17 Um, and I think the strategy is changing right in front of our eyes. I think there will be fewer max players-

Erik Torenberg 44:25 Right

Mark Cuban 44:25 ... um, coming up.

Erik Torenberg 44:26 Interesting. And it, it used to be this thing where in order to win a championship, you had to have one of the best players in the league. You know, the Pistons were an exception to that. You know, I w- I'm wonder- my N- I'm a Knicks fan. I wonder if the Knicks have a, you know, possibility to, to question that. But if, if you're playing for a championship, do you think that you have to have, you know, one of the five best players in the league or?

Mark Cuban 44:42 Sure helps.

Erik Torenberg 44:43 Yeah. [both laughing] Yeah.

Mark Cuban 44:44 Um, it depends on the skill set. So what's changed a lot in just six years, seven years-

Erik Torenberg 44:52 Yeah

Mark Cuban 44:52 ... certainly, you know, the last 10 years, is you used, there used to always be one guy on the court who couldn't shoot.

Erik Torenberg 44:58 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 44:59 That couldn't get a bucket. They were there for defensive purposes, or they protected the rim.

Erik Torenberg 45:03 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 45:03 Um, now they all can score offensively at some level. And so, you know, whether it's the Knicks or anybody else, if you have enough guys who can put pressure-

Erik Torenberg 45:13 Yeah

Mark Cuban 45:13 ... on the defense, and that's why, you know, the Knicks made the deals that they did.

Erik Torenberg 45:16 Right.

Mark Cuban 45:16 But if there's one guy that you're playing against that's always the best player on the floor-

Erik Torenberg 45:21 Yeah

Mark Cuban 45:21 ... and you're, you don't have that player-

Erik Torenberg 45:23 Right

Mark Cuban 45:24 ... it's going to be tough.

Erik Torenberg 45:25 Totally. Well, I think it, the, the, what the Knicks are asking, I guess Boston's asking too to some degree, is like can offense win championships? Like, if you just stack the-

Mark Cuban 45:31 Well-

Erik Torenberg 45:31 Yeah

Mark Cuban 45:31 ... yeah, I mean, the Knicks have got some defenders.

Erik Torenberg 45:34 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 45:35 You know? Um-

Erik Torenberg 45:36 But Brunson and KAT are weak defenders.

Mark Cuban 45:38 It's gonna be tough.

Erik Torenberg 45:38 Yeah. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 45:39 Yeah, it makes it tough because, you know, once you get to... Like, even against Indiana.

Erik Torenberg 45:44 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 45:44 You know? Indiana didn't have... You know, Halley, we tried to get Halley so hard, right?

Erik Torenberg 45:50 [laughs] Yeah.

Mark Cuban 45:50 Um, Halley is not a top five NBA player.

Erik Torenberg 45:53 Right.

Mark Cuban 45:53 He's good.

Erik Torenberg 45:54 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 45:54 Maybe top 15.

Erik Torenberg 45:55 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 45:56 But he was better-

Erik Torenberg 45:57 Right

Mark Cuban 45:57 ... in that moment because, because you can do match-ups over and over and over again, of course-

Erik Torenberg 46:03 Yeah

Mark Cuban 46:03 ... across the, up to seven games, you can play certain players off the court.

Erik Torenberg 46:07 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 46:07 So you saw KAT-

Erik Torenberg 46:08 Right

Mark Cuban 46:09 ... not even, even being out there at certain times.

Erik Torenberg 46:10 Totally. Yeah, no, if Pacers won the championship, that would've really questioned, you know-

Mark Cuban 46:13 And they took 'em to seven games.

Erik Torenberg 46:15 Yeah, it's in-

Mark Cuban 46:16 I know, and their best player gets hurt.

Erik Torenberg 46:18 Incredible. [laughs]

Mark Cuban 46:18 You know, and we, the Mavs, injured and all, without Luka, beat, um, OKC three out of four games.

Erik Torenberg 46:24 Yeah. Wow. By the way, Dallas is one of the deepest teams right now too. I mean-

Mark Cuban 46:27 Oh, really deep if everybody stay healthy.

Erik Torenberg 46:28 If everyone's healthy. Yeah, yeah.

Mark Cuban 46:29 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 46:29 Um, but yeah, there's so many teams like the, the Raptors, the Bulls, the Kings, kind of like in perpetual me- what I would call mediocrity, and they're expensive, and they're old, and I'm like, "You just gotta rebuild. Just admit they're rebuilding, j- " And, and there's a number of teams like that.

Mark Cuban 46:43 Yeah, and part of the problem is that there's an, a salary cap floor.

Erik Torenberg 46:48 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 46:48 Right? You have to spend up to a certain amount.

Erik Torenberg 46:50 [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 46:50 That's like-

Erik Torenberg 46:50 'Cause they're trying to keep competitive, I guess.

Mark Cuban 46:51 Right. Well, it's just, that's the deal we, we do with the players.

Erik Torenberg 46:53 Yeah. Right.

Mark Cuban 46:53 They want more money spent.

Erik Torenberg 46:54 Oh, got it.

Mark Cuban 46:55 And so 90% of the salary cap is a lot of money.

Erik Torenberg 46:59 Right.

Mark Cuban 46:59 Right? So it's like $153 million.

Erik Torenberg 47:03 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 47:03 Right? So yeah, seven, 170, give or take, times nine. And so, um, spending up to $153 million, that's 10 million average.

Erik Torenberg 47:11 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 47:11 So that means you're g- you're overpaying a lot of people.

Erik Torenberg 47:13 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 47:14 You know? And so, um, I might have the cap number wrong, but in any event, you're paying a lot of people a lot of money, but if you keep them short contracts-

Erik Torenberg 47:21 Right

Mark Cuban 47:21 ... you'll get guys wanting to come just-

Erik Torenberg 47:23 Yeah

Mark Cuban 47:23 ... to get overpaid.

Erik Torenberg 47:24 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 47:25 You know? And you almost have to tank, and you just-

Erik Torenberg 47:28 Is it m- I have a theory that there are these guys like, you know, maybe I'm being unfair, but Kuzma, RJ Barrett, Brandon Ingram, who are sort of like built for losing, for getting a lo- a lot of money and a lot of points-

Mark Cuban 47:38 A lot of points, yeah

Erik Torenberg 47:39 ... on a losing team.

Mark Cuban 47:40 Yeah, I mean-

Erik Torenberg 47:41 And we're seeing more of that

Mark Cuban 47:42 ... they're, they're freer, yeah, they're freer on a losing team.

Erik Torenberg 47:44 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 47:44 And they, they do it to get paid more money.

Erik Torenberg 47:46 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 47:47 Right? But teams are smarter than that.

Erik Torenberg 47:49 Yeah. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 47:49 But at the same time, there are teams that need scoring.

Erik Torenberg 47:52 Right.

Mark Cuban 47:52 And, you know, if, if you fall into that category-

Erik Torenberg 47:56 Yeah

Mark Cuban 47:56 ... you're gonna go after those guys if you have the space for it. But I think what, what's happening actually now, you're, we're seeing all the salaries kind of con- revolving around the mid-level exception-

Erik Torenberg 48:08 Yeah

Mark Cuban 48:08 ... which is $14 million-

Erik Torenberg 48:09 Right

Mark Cuban 48:09 ... give or take, right? And so that, if you're, guys now r- realize with the second apron things have changed.

Erik Torenberg 48:15 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 48:15 So if you get paid more than the mid-level-

Erik Torenberg 48:17 Right

Mark Cuban 48:18 ... you're a good player.

Erik Torenberg 48:19 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 48:19 If you get paid at the mid-level, you're a decent player. If you get p- paid below, you're, you're a roster piece.

Erik Torenberg 48:25 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 48:25 Unless you're young and you're on your way up.

Erik Torenberg 48:27 For advice for me as a future owner, what, what's the big- what are the biggest ways an owner can influence winning? Is it sort of a personnel selection on coaching GM? Like, are you-

Mark Cuban 48:35 Always looking for an edge.

Erik Torenberg 48:36 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 48:36 Always looking for the edge. Um-You know, personnel selection's hard.

Erik Torenberg 48:41 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 48:42 It's more art than science.

Erik Torenberg 48:43 Right.

Mark Cuban 48:43 You don't, you know, [chuckles] like I told Jason when I did it, um, Jalen Brunson when I did his podcast, he was just some chubby guy, right?

Erik Torenberg 48:49 [laughs]

Mark Cuban 48:50 You know that, that it-

Erik Torenberg 48:51 Oh yes. I'm sorry that we, uh, took him from you.

Mark Cuban 48:52 No, it's not-

Erik Torenberg 48:53 Or you gave him away. Yeah.

Mark Cuban 48:54 Yeah, I was not happy about that.

Erik Torenberg 48:55 Right. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 48:55 Yeah. Um, but, you know, we picked him thirty-third.

Erik Torenberg 48:59 Right.

Mark Cuban 49:00 Thirty-two, you know, chances to draft him, and they didn't.

Erik Torenberg 49:03 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 49:03 And we liked just his pedigree of winning at-

Erik Torenberg 49:05 Right

Mark Cuban 49:05 ... at Villanova. Um, but it's his effort.

Erik Torenberg 49:08 Right.

Mark Cuban 49:09 Like when he was with us, his go-to move was either a spin or a move to the left, and he'd fall away doing a layup.

Erik Torenberg 49:16 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 49:17 And he never got the foul because he was always falling away.

Erik Torenberg 49:19 Right.

Mark Cuban 49:19 Now his mid-range jumper is money.

Erik Torenberg 49:21 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 49:21 But he worked on that.

Erik Torenberg 49:22 Totally.

Mark Cuban 49:22 And that's what you don't know when you draft somebody.

Erik Torenberg 49:25 Right.

Mark Cuban 49:25 What mental capacity do they have? You know their athletic ability.

Erik Torenberg 49:28 Right.

Mark Cuban 49:29 But will they work hard to improve their skills? Will they work hard to improve their basketball IQ?

Erik Torenberg 49:34 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 49:34 If the answer is yes, and they have the, you know, the athletic side of it, you've got a chance, but you don't really know that 'til... 'Cause no one comes in and works out-

Erik Torenberg 49:43 Yeah

Mark Cuban 49:43 ... and says, "Okay, I'm, I'm an idiot. I suck," right?

Erik Torenberg 49:45 Right.

Mark Cuban 49:46 And shows you they suck. You know, they've all been trained on how to work out.

Erik Torenberg 49:50 Totally.

Mark Cuban 49:50 You know, and they're in college maybe one year.

Erik Torenberg 49:52 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 49:53 So, you know, and then if you're going to a college and they're getting paid now, right, it may be that they're just doing what the coach needs them to do there-

Erik Torenberg 50:00 Yeah

Mark Cuban 50:00 ... which may not match what they need to do in the NBA.

Erik Torenberg 50:03 Right.

Mark Cuban 50:03 You've got the hardest part for players that aren't superstars coming right in, is you've got to learn how to fit in.

Erik Torenberg 50:08 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 50:08 Even with Luka, we didn't know he was gonna be a superstar.

Erik Torenberg 50:10 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 50:11 We thought he was gonna be really, really good.

Erik Torenberg 50:12 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 50:12 Right? And we thought he had superstar mentality.

Erik Torenberg 50:15 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 50:15 But I was terrified 'cause I made a trade, right?

Erik Torenberg 50:17 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 50:17 I gave up a pick-

Erik Torenberg 50:19 Yeah

Mark Cuban 50:19 ... you know, to Atlanta, and I remember we played in China the first game of the preseason, and I had Sean Marion that was an ambassador of the NBA-

Erik Torenberg 50:26 Yeah

Mark Cuban 50:26 ... I'm like, "Trix, what do you think? Trix, what do you think? What do you think?"

Erik Torenberg 50:29 [laughs]

Mark Cuban 50:29 Like, I'm terrified. I'm terrified.

Erik Torenberg 50:31 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 50:31 You know, but we know how that turned out.

Erik Torenberg 50:34 Yeah, yeah. And, and by the way, um, so funny, just the basketball gods. Lakers made all the wrong moves for so many years and we're s- in such a tough spot. You talk about Warriors, they were in a tougher spot going forward, trading all their picks, being so old, and then Luka falls into the lap just to keep it, keep it interesting. But-

Mark Cuban 50:47 I think we've done enough of this. [laughs]

Erik Torenberg 50:48 Yeah, exactly. But, but Mavs got Coop, and, uh-

Mark Cuban 50:50 Right. We'll do a trade

Erik Torenberg 50:51 ... don't trade him and-

Mark Cuban 50:52 No

Erik Torenberg 50:52 ... yeah, you'll, you'll be good. The, um, z- z- zooming out, getting towards closing here, the, um... How have you thought about how you want to spend time? Like, um, you know, you, for example, kind of have your own a16z, big venture firm,

Erik Torenberg 51:05 do- doing all these investments, all, all this staff. You seem to run kind of a lean op- op- operation-

Mark Cuban 51:08 Yeah

Erik Torenberg 51:08 ... more flexible.

Mark Cuban 51:09 Yeah.

Erik Torenberg 51:10 How, how, how have you thought about the efforts that you want to get involved with, not want to get involved with, how thin to spread yourself, so to speak?

Mark Cuban 51:17 Well, I mean, I, I got out of Shark Tank.

Erik Torenberg 51:18 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:18 I got out of Mavs-

Erik Torenberg 51:19 Got the Mavs

Mark Cuban 51:20 ... so I could spend more time with my kids.

Erik Torenberg 51:21 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:22 You know, that, that's number one.

Erik Torenberg 51:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:23 'Cause they're sixteen, nineteen, and about to turn twenty-two.

Erik Torenberg 51:27 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:27 They're heading out on their own.

Erik Torenberg 51:28 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:28 So I, I just wanna spend that time that I can with them. But I think the difference is, for me versus everybody else, I'm not looking... My goal is not to make as much money as I can.

Erik Torenberg 51:37 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:37 Like, I do investing.

Erik Torenberg 51:40 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:41 But honestly, it's just sh- people email me.

Erik Torenberg 51:43 Yeah. [laughs]

Mark Cuban 51:44 I mean, like I saw a list of who has the most unicorns-

Erik Torenberg 51:46 Yeah

Mark Cuban 51:46 ... and I, I, I was like, I had like eleven.

Erik Torenberg 51:48 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:49 And all of them were just from email. Somebody emailing me saying, "Check this out, check this out, check this out."

Erik Torenberg 51:53 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:53 Like Synthesia, you know, I was their first investor.

Erik Torenberg 51:56 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 51:56 You know, gave them a million dollars and now, you know. So I can get twenty, twenty-five percent of a company, sometimes more-

Erik Torenberg 52:02 Yeah

Mark Cuban 52:02 ... um, and then help them grow.

Erik Torenberg 52:04 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:04 That's what I like.

Erik Torenberg 52:05 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:05 Right? Taking, you know, long shot tries as opposed to, okay, let's raise a fund, let's get a team together, we'll put in ten to twenty-five million.

Erik Torenberg 52:14 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:14 And then, you know, if they're doing well, we'll put in more and do follow-ups.

Erik Torenberg 52:16 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:17 And, you know, we'll have these big scores.

Erik Torenberg 52:20 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:20 I like it better when, you know, it... Dude Wipes.

Erik Torenberg 52:23 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:24 Right? Comes on Shark Tank.

Erik Torenberg 52:25 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:25 I give them two hundred grand for fifteen percent.

Erik Torenberg 52:27 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:27 Now they're worth a billion dollars easy.

Erik Torenberg 52:29 Right.

Mark Cuban 52:29 You know, they're a primary brand, and they never had to raise another cent.

Erik Torenberg 52:32 Yeah. Right.

Mark Cuban 52:33 You know, helping a company never have to raise more money-

Erik Torenberg 52:36 Yeah

Mark Cuban 52:36 ... and making them profitable-

Erik Torenberg 52:37 Right

Mark Cuban 52:37 ... so that they're insanely profitable.

Erik Torenberg 52:39 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:39 I had this company, Alyssa's Cookies. Guy Doug was living in his car with his family, and he sent me these cookies.

Erik Torenberg 52:46 Wow.

Mark Cuban 52:46 They were the b- they were this big. They were the best cookies I've ever... 'Cause I always do, like, the nutrition thing first.

Erik Torenberg 52:51 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:51 What's on the back? No added sugar.

Erik Torenberg 52:53 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 52:53 Lots of fiber, et cetera, um, low net carbs. But when I took it out of the, the plastic, it all fell apart. So I said, "I'm gonna give you money," right? And I got, like, a third of the company.

Erik Torenberg 53:04 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 53:04 "But I'm gonna guide you through what it takes."

Erik Torenberg 53:05 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 53:05 So we changed it, and I told him to make them into bites instead of cookies and put them in a plastic container-

Erik Torenberg 53:11 Yeah

Mark Cuban 53:11 ... and go to stores, and we'll sell them. I'll do a tasting, you know, where-

Erik Torenberg 53:15 Yeah

Mark Cuban 53:15 ... you know, I'll go to a grocery store one time and hand out. Now, no more money in, right? We'll do twenty-five million this year.

Erik Torenberg 53:23 Wow.

Mark Cuban 53:23 But that's not the important number.

Erik Torenberg 53:24 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 53:24 Because we don't spend money on advertising or anything-

Erik Torenberg 53:26 Right. Profitable

Mark Cuban 53:28 ... makes twelve to fourteen million a year.

Erik Torenberg 53:31 Wow. That's ridiculous.

Mark Cuban 53:31 And we keep, we just added Whole Foods.

Erik Torenberg 53:33 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 53:33 We just added Costco. We're adding, uh, more and more, you know, outlets. He can get to a hundred million and make fifty million a year.

Erik Torenberg 53:41 Yeah. Wow.

Mark Cuban 53:41 That stuff's fun.

Erik Torenberg 53:43 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 53:43 Right?

Erik Torenberg 53:44 So if you could clone yourself a few times or when you look into the future, are there other businesses like Cost Plus Drugs that you wanna start or incubate or?

Mark Cuban 53:50 Yeah, education.

Erik Torenberg 53:51 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 53:51 If I, if I can do what I want to do with healthcare-

Erik Torenberg 53:54 Yeah

Mark Cuban 53:54 ... which isn't saying a lot, right?

Erik Torenberg 53:55 Yeah, totally. That's a big effort.

Mark Cuban 53:57 You know? Um, yeah. But it would be education just because, um-

Erik Torenberg 54:01 Like AI first K through 12 or what kind of-

Mark Cuban 54:02 Yeah, I mean more, more, um, secondary education.

Erik Torenberg 54:05 Okay.

Mark Cuban 54:05 Right? Simply because the, the cost structure is all fucked up.

Erik Torenberg 54:09 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 54:09 Right? And it's all built on accreditation.

Erik Torenberg 54:12 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 54:12 And, and that's kind of a mafia, and when I see a mafia like that, I just ignore the accreditation-

Erik Torenberg 54:16 Yeah

Mark Cuban 54:16 ... and just go do it anyways, and if you get the results or guarantee your results-

Erik Torenberg 54:20 Yeah

Mark Cuban 54:20 ... you'll get plenty of-

Erik Torenberg 54:21 We talked about your healthcare platform. We talked about your messaging. Are there any other policies that if you could, you know, be in charge of Democratic Party or, or sort of running America, that you would be most excited about in terms of its transformative potential? Like what, what-

Mark Cuban 54:33 Yeah, you know what I would say? I would say a focus on entrepreneurship.

Erik Torenberg 54:36 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 54:36 You know, that, um, right now, whoever the candidate is, particularly if it's for president, takes credit for everything.

Erik Torenberg 54:43 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 54:44 And that's ridiculous.

Erik Torenberg 54:45 Mm-hmm.

Mark Cuban 54:45 They do less to impact the startups and the start, the building of businesses than anybody, you know? Um, and so I think what's missing, definitely missing with Biden, um-Maybe less so with Obama, but definitely missing with Trump. Like when you hear Trump talk about tariffs, he never talks about small businesses.

Erik Torenberg 55:05 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 55:05 It's always, "Hey, I've got this company investing five hundred billion dollars, six hundred billion," when, you know, you've got all these Shark Tank companies that are getting crushed.

Erik Torenberg 55:12 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 55:13 You know, you increase, you know, from a two and a half percent average tariff to a fifteen percent tariff, that's their profit margin, and it's gone. So I would put a focus on recognizing and encouraging and rewarding people starting businesses and using AI, you know, kind of as government as a service, where you simplify all the friction that's involved in starting a business, you know, from the paperwork to, to get all the requirements, the incorporation, et cetera, to a bank account, to all of it. Just simplify all of it-

Erik Torenberg 55:46 Yeah

Mark Cuban 55:46 ... so entrepreneurs can be entrepreneurs because I think that is what sep-- [chuckles] Joe Biden told this to me, of all people, um, when during the Obama administration, they invited us, uh, from Shark Tank to go do a thing for entrepreneurship at the White House. And he sat, and he gave a little speech, and, um, what he said was, "You know, I've traveled around the world, and there's no Chinese dream. There's no French dream. There's no UK dream."

Erik Torenberg 56:16 Wow.

Mark Cuban 56:16 "There's only the American dream."

Erik Torenberg 56:17 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 56:17 "And people come here to, to live it and experience it. That's what makes us unique."

Erik Torenberg 56:22 Yeah. And on that note, w-what

Erik Torenberg 56:24 advice-- in closing, what advice do you have for us in Silicon Valley or just tech more broadly who are building with AI on how to make it more popular so that we don't have this big backlash?

Mark Cuban 56:33 Um, you have to get with either party and communicate to people the upside.

Erik Torenberg 56:44 Yeah, 'cause they, they see the down- they see, "Hey, maybe my job is being taken away."

Mark Cuban 56:47 Yeah. And they, and that's, that's, you know, going back to what I said earlier, there will be disintermediation.

Erik Torenberg 56:52 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 56:52 But I don't think the net number of jobs is going to decrease.

Erik Torenberg 56:56 Right.

Mark Cuban 56:56 I think everything gets reinvented-

Erik Torenberg 56:57 Yeah

Mark Cuban 56:57 ... because AI right now is not smart.

Erik Torenberg 57:00 Right.

Mark Cuban 57:00 You know, it's statistical-

Erik Torenberg 57:02 Yeah

Mark Cuban 57:02 ... in a lot of respects. Robotics, on the other hand, is getting smart. You know, robotics, if you, you know, clean my bedroom, it has to know, you know, to pick up the sheets and all this stuff. But I think the combination of the two will create unique opportunities for jobs.

Erik Torenberg 57:18 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 57:18 Um, I think domain expertise is always going to be necessary, um, to train models. But I think bigger picture, when, like, we look at a house, everything's designed for the human form, and right now robotics is trying to emulate the human form 'cause that's what we've always done with software.

Erik Torenberg 57:40 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 57:41 We just emulated what we already did and tried to optimize it. You don't just-- If you can create devices, robots that can look like anything, and you want them to be domestic in some way, you don't build houses the way we do now.

Erik Torenberg 57:55 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 57:55 And I think there's gonna be a lot of jobs that go in different directions, and I think Silicon Valley has gotta do a much better job demonstrating those jobs, hiring people for those jobs, um, supporting people that are concerned about their jobs, um, even teachers. You know? Now, when we look at AI tools, you can read papers faster. That's not gonna change anything.

Erik Torenberg 58:20 Right.

Mark Cuban 58:20 You're just doing it the same way.

Erik Torenberg 58:22 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 58:22 You know? But if a teacher can use AI to, um, customize responses to kids to help them learn, like you said, um, AI tutors-

Erik Torenberg 58:31 Yeah

Mark Cuban 58:32 ... right, but in a classroom, you're gonna keep your job longer.

Erik Torenberg 58:35 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 58:35 We, we need more teachers, not fewer teachers.

Erik Torenberg 58:38 Right.

Mark Cuban 58:38 Um, but AI doesn't-- I mean, Silicon Valley doesn't communicate that at all.

Erik Torenberg 58:42 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 58:42 Because when you're raising money, it's about what you're gonna change-

Erik Torenberg 58:45 Right

Mark Cuban 58:45 ... not what you're gonna sustain.

Erik Torenberg 58:47 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 58:47 But there's so many unique opportunities.

Erik Torenberg 58:49 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 58:50 I mean, I'm, I'm old enough, like, I would walk in selling PCs, and I saw you're out of work, you're out of work-

Erik Torenberg 58:56 Right

Mark Cuban 58:56 ... you're out of work. But as it's all turned out, the economy just keeps on growing.

Erik Torenberg 59:01 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 59:01 And, and I think the same thing is going to happen here. And I think the other side of it is going to, you know, inner cities. Like, I have this thing called the Mark Cuban AI Bootcamp, and all we do is go into, you know, underprivileged schools, you know, and encourage kids to sign up for the bootcamp. And it used to be just machine learning-

Erik Torenberg 59:24 Yeah

Mark Cuban 59:24 ... right, where we taught you that. Now it's, you know, learning how to use AI the way with models and everything and agents for fifteen, sixteen, seventeen-year-old kids.

Erik Torenberg 59:33 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 59:33 And it's great, right? 'Cause they're going back, and they're coming up with new ideas.

Erik Torenberg 59:36 Right.

Mark Cuban 59:37 The Valley needs to go out there and engage more in Middle America so people see-

Erik Torenberg 59:44 Totally

Mark Cuban 59:44 ... where the upside is.

Erik Torenberg 59:45 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 59:46 You know, you're getting this rejuvenation of San Francisco and-

Erik Torenberg 59:49 Right

Mark Cuban 59:49 ... all the spending is pointing there.

Erik Torenberg 59:51 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 59:52 How is anybody else gonna understand that or see that?

Erik Torenberg 59:54 Right.

Mark Cuban 59:55 You just... They don't at all.

Erik Torenberg 59:56 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 59:56 When in reality, if it's open to them, and that's why I did the bootcamp, more things are going to happen.

Erik Torenberg 1:00:03 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:00:03 People don't realize, like, when the internet first hit, we used to think kids who could do HTML coding were geniuses.

Erik Torenberg 1:00:09 Yeah. [chuckles]

Mark Cuban 1:00:09 Right? And when they moved up to JavaScript, they were even smarter, right?

Erik Torenberg 1:00:12 Right.

Mark Cuban 1:00:12 'Cause they were building all these websites that were getting ready to go public. Um, and AI's kinda the same thing. It's not hard to build agents.

Erik Torenberg 1:00:18 Right.

Mark Cuban 1:00:18 And it's getting easier.

Erik Torenberg 1:00:19 Mm-hmm.

Mark Cuban 1:00:20 But knowing an application that you can use to start something, improve something, everybody can do that.

Erik Torenberg 1:00:26 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:00:26 Every kid, every mom, every dad. But Silicon Valley is making it sound like, you know, this is "The Jetsons"-

Erik Torenberg 1:00:32 Right

Mark Cuban 1:00:32 ... and we have no chance.

Erik Torenberg 1:00:34 Yeah.

Mark Cuban 1:00:34 And I think that has to change.

Erik Torenberg 1:00:35 That's a great note of, uh, advice and optimism to, to end. Mark Cuban, thanks so much for coming on the podcast.

Mark Cuban 1:00:39 It was a lot of fun. Thank you.

Erik Torenberg 1:00:40 Yeah. Absolutely.

Mark Cuban 1:00:41 Appreciate it. [outro music]