Mark Cuban on the NBA, Cost Plus Drugs, and How to Fix Politics

What happens when AI collides with salesmanship, streaming-era sports, and healthcare? In this episode, Erik Torenberg is joined by Mark Cuban, entrepreneur, Dallas Mavericks co-owner, and founder of Cost Plus Drugs. Topics include fiery group chats and how dissent sharpens thinking, the sales playbook of modern politics, and concrete fixes for U.S. healthcare like ending PBM opacity, publishing real prices, and government-backed patient financing. Mark also explains how AI is pushing media from “social” to algorithmic, why he expects millions of models, and why ESOPs are an underrated wealth engine. He shares what he’d build today and weighs in on NBA economics under the new collective bargaining agreement. Timecodes: 00:00 Introduction 01:00 Independent Thinking & Political Identity 03:18 The Impact of AI on Media & Society 06:26 The Future of Social Platforms 08:50 Lessons from the SEC & Privacy 09:20 Political Messaging: Democrats vs. Republicans 12:30 Economic Inequality & Employee Ownership 14:17 Populism, Policy, and Political Strategy 16:00 The Role of Technology in Government 17:03 AI’s Impact on Education 18:49 AI and the Future of Healthcare 21:55 Insurance, PBMs, and Healthcare Reform 29:46 Entrepreneurship & AI-Native Careers 33:54 Business Success, Investing, and the NBA 40:05 Luka Trade, Cooper Flagg, and the New CBA 42:40 Max Deals, Second Stars, and Apron Math 51:05 Family Time and an Unconventional Investing Style 56:24 Making AI Popular and Closing Notes Resources: Find Mark on X: https://x.com/mcuban Stay Updated: Let us know what you think: https://ratethispodcast.com/a16z Find a16z on Twitter: https://twitter.com/a16z Find a16z on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/a16z Subscribe on your favorite podcast app: https://a16z.simplecast.com/ Follow our host: https://x.com/eriktorenberg Please note that the content here is for informational purposes only; should NOT be taken as legal, business, tax, or investment advice or be used to evaluate any investment or security; and is not directed at any investors or potential investors in any a16z fund. a16z and its affiliates may maintain investments in the companies discussed. For more details please see a16z.com/disclosures.

Mark CubanguestErik Torenberghost

Sep 9, 20251h 1mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

65 min read · 13,460 words

0:00 – 1:00
Introduction
1. MCMark Cuban
  I look at business as a sport, and I just love to compete. I just like to be intellectually challenged.
2. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
3. MCMark Cuban
  I'm an independent. I don't care about parties.
4. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
5. MCMark Cuban
  I could care less. I wanna be where different viewpoints are, an intellectual response rather than just a "You suck" response-
6. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
7. MCMark Cuban
  ... that you get on social media.
8. ETErik Torenberg
  Mark, thanks for coming on the podcast.
9. MCMark Cuban
  Thanks for having me on. Excited to be here.
10. ETErik Torenberg
  So we've spent a lot of time last couple years or so, but most of that time digitally-
11. MCMark Cuban
  Yep
12. ETErik Torenberg
  ... and on group chats. And, uh, one question that of-often I get in the group chats sphere is, "How do these billionaires have so much time to be on group chats?" To which I say, "Oh, that's actually the highest form, you know, Maslow's hierarchy of needs."
13. MCMark Cuban
  Right.
14. ETErik Torenberg
  Once you really make it, then you wanna argue with your friends and have interesting conversations.
15. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah.
16. ETErik Torenberg
  W-what's a... What's, what's your reflection on what you get out of these or what you spend time on?
17. MCMark Cuban
  You wanna learn, you wanna challenge yourself, you wanna see what other people think and why.
18. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
19. MCMark Cuban
  Because, you know, in a world that's changing the way it is, you know, I wanna be where different viewpoints are and have it be, you know, uh, an intellectual response rather than just a "You suck" response-
20. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
21. MCMark Cuban
  ... that you get on social media.
22. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
1:00 – 3:18
Independent Thinking & Political Identity
1. ETErik Torenberg
  And one of the things I appreciate most about one of our group chats is that you're one of the, the lone dissent. Originally it was on the election-
2. MCMark Cuban
  Right
3. ETErik Torenberg
  ... and, and, uh, you know, it had more of a right-leaning crowd and, and you were one of the, you know, most prominent Democrat-
4. MCMark Cuban
  I was the dissenter.
5. ETErik Torenberg
  Exactly.
6. MCMark Cuban
  I'm not even a Democrat. I was just-
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Yes, exactly
8. MCMark Cuban
  ... the dissenter. Yeah.
9. ETErik Torenberg
  And willing to, to sort of be independent and go-
10. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  What did, what did you get out of that? Is it you just get sharper, get your arguments smarter? Reflect on that.
12. MCMark Cuban
  It w- it wasn't so much that.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14. MCMark Cuban
  I just, um, to me, there was a lot of things that didn't make sense.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and to them it didn't make sense where I stood.
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
18. MCMark Cuban
  And I wanted to get to the root of why people came to those conclusions.
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
20. MCMark Cuban
  And, you know, typically it just came down to trust.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
22. MCMark Cuban
  You know? But you don't know that that's gonna be the underpinning logic-
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Right
24. MCMark Cuban
  ... until you ask the questions.
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
26. MCMark Cuban
  And so I think, you know, a lot of people presume if the-- in, in any type of group chat, right-
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
28. MCMark Cuban
  ... that you know where everybody stands and you think you understand why.
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
30. MCMark Cuban
  But it's until you start kind of, uh, challenging them and-
3:18 – 6:26
The Impact of AI on Media & Society
1. ETErik Torenberg
  And, um, when did you realize that business people would have platforms that would give them kinda distribution advantages in reaching customers?
2. MCMark Cuban
  Just when social media came out.
3. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
4. MCMark Cuban
  You know?
5. ETErik Torenberg
  'Cause you were early to this.
6. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah. I mean-
7. ETErik Torenberg
  You were very early. Like you-
8. MCMark Cuban
  V-
9. ETErik Torenberg
  ... you and Trump, like one of the early, early people.
10. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah. I mean, right when Twitter started.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
12. MCMark Cuban
  Well, not when, not 2006, but 2009 at South-
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
14. MCMark Cuban
  ... by Southwest-
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
16. MCMark Cuban
  ... when they were all pumping it up.
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Right. [chuckles]
18. MCMark Cuban
  Um, when it was all about just where's the party at.
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah. Yeah.
20. MCMark Cuban
  You know? Um, but yeah, I mean, social media obviously i- it's like, why are people following me?
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
22. MCMark Cuban
  And it's just, you know, it, it's aspirational at some levels. And I owned the Mavs, so it was-
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
24. MCMark Cuban
  ... informational. Um, and then just w-with the technology background, it was informational there as well. So I could, I could reach into different y- domains-
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
26. MCMark Cuban
  ... and, and interact with people, and that creates a platform, and each platform has its own look and feel, and you just learn how to, you know-
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
28. MCMark Cuban
  ... deal with it accordingly. It's gonna be really interesting because of AI.
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
30. MCMark Cuban
  Um, AI, as you know, has multidimensional impact.
6:26 – 8:50
The Future of Social Platforms
1. ETErik Torenberg
  um, when you look out, you know, five years from now, ten years from now, do you th- do you think there's a new platform that emerges, or do you think it's kind of this like fragmented ecosystem that we have now? What, what is your prediction for the future of social?
2. MCMark Cuban
  Well, I mean, look at Blue Sky.
3. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
4. MCMark Cuban
  They, they, you know, have been around for a little while, but then all of a sudden when Trump got elected, their usage-
5. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
6. MCMark Cuban
  ...just boomed.
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Right. I call it the fragmentation of like, you know, people didn't like Elon. Now, now it-
8. MCMark Cuban
  Right. So-
9. ETErik Torenberg
  It's not just that, but yeah.
10. MCMark Cuban
  But yeah, so they moved, right? But now it became its own silo.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
12. MCMark Cuban
  And so I think there will be-- it won't be social media-
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Right
14. MCMark Cuban
  ...but there'll be media.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  Because the, you know, depends on how much you believe in AI and where you think it'll go. I always look at it as creative people, they'll be able to amplify their creativity-
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
18. MCMark Cuban
  ...and iterate incessantly.
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
20. MCMark Cuban
  And that will create some an amazing incessant, you know, am-amazing, incredible things. Um, are you just gonna put it on X? Are you gonna put it on LinkedIn? Are you gonna put it on Blue Sky? Are you gonna put it on TikTok? You don't have control of the algorithm.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
22. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and so I think there will be something new, and I think how people connect to that content, um, will be the foundation of it because I think we're, we're tired of rage bait.
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
24. MCMark Cuban
  You know, um, and we're tired of the fact that, you know, the algorithm presents what you seek-
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
26. MCMark Cuban
  ...effectively. Um, I think instead, we are going to get unique offerings that don't seem to make sense right now.
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  And I think part two to that is, you know, like if you go on X and you use Grok, it almost always, unless it's something that Elon is, is individually interested in-
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
30. MCMark Cuban
  ...it comes up with a legitimate answer.
8:50 – 9:20
Lessons from the SEC & Privacy
1. ETErik Torenberg
  Snap competitor? I'm trying to remember-
2. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah. No, it was ten years ago.
3. ETErik Torenberg
  Ten years ago.
4. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah.
5. ETErik Torenberg
  Wow.
6. MCMark Cuban
  Twelve years ago.
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
8. MCMark Cuban
  Um, and it was more because of what happened with the SEC, where I got charged by the SEC for insider trading, and they basically just took anything and everything I said out of context.
9. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
10. MCMark Cuban
  Right? So I gave them everything I had, and I got cleared in like fifteen minutes.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
12. MCMark Cuban
  Um, but the point was, I wanted something that was truly private.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14. MCMark Cuban
  And so, and it still exists today.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  You know, um, but I just use it for mostly internal, um, communications with our employees.
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah, that makes sense.
9:20 – 12:30
Political Messaging: Democrats vs. Republicans
1. ETErik Torenberg
  The-- let's go back to the, the messaging on, uh, on Democrats, Republicans.
2. MCMark Cuban
  Uh-huh.
3. ETErik Torenberg
  If you were in charge of the, the DNC, the, the Democratic Party, and controlled both the platform and the messaging, what, what, what would you advise? What would the pl-
4. MCMark Cuban
  Well, first you gotta have people that know how to sell.
5. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
6. MCMark Cuban
  You know? And second, you have to know what people wanna buy.
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
8. MCMark Cuban
  And people wanna buy, quote unquote, "Just a better life."
9. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
10. MCMark Cuban
  You know, what the Democrats do is they project.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Mm-hmm.
12. MCMark Cuban
  They extrapolate. Trump did this-
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
14. MCMark Cuban
  ...so it's the end of the world.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah. [chuckles]
16. MCMark Cuban
  The Republicans are just like, "What's the price of tea in China?"
17. ETErik Torenberg
  [laughs]
18. MCMark Cuban
  Right? 'Cause I drink tea from China.
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
20. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and they de-deal directly with what's happening with you today.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
22. MCMark Cuban
  And ninety-nine percent of people in this country, that's what they care about first.
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
24. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and so I would go to the Democrats and say, "Look at the price of beef."
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
26. MCMark Cuban
  And I think that's what the Democrats miss. They're so intent on the T word, right?
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  Everything is just a trigger word because they want people yelling and screaming at rallies, and that's great.
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
30. MCMark Cuban
  Just like Trump did. If you have ten, fifteen thousand people with Bernie AOC, and you wanna get them all riled up-
12:30 – 14:17
Economic Inequality & Employee Ownership
1. MCMark Cuban
  Then go to the billionaires and give them incentives, which really made them mad.
2. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
3. MCMark Cuban
  Right? Companies incentives, not the individual-
4. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
5. MCMark Cuban
  ... nine hundred and forty-two to, you know, your taxes will go instead of twenty-seven percent, let's say-
6. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
7. MCMark Cuban
  ... you'll stay at twenty-one percent if everybody gets equity-
8. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
9. MCMark Cuban
  ... in the company.
10. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
11. MCMark Cuban
  And it's on a-- pari passu is not the right word, but it's on an equal percentage of-
12. ETErik Torenberg
  Right
13. MCMark Cuban
  ... take-home pay-
14. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
15. MCMark Cuban
  ... um, that you get relative to the CEO-
16. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
17. MCMark Cuban
  ... down to whoever. Right? Now you, you know, you have, you have appreciable assets.
18. ETErik Torenberg
  Upside, yeah.
19. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah. And when, when people have appreciable assets, you know, beyond just a home, A, if it appreciates, they can buy a home.
20. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
21. MCMark Cuban
  And B, the, the wealth gap doesn't increase.
22. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
23. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and, and it gets closed down. You know, if you do go-- if you do a little research and, and-- 'cause I was just curious about all this, and I went to Ch- Perplexity, and I'm like, "What's the earnings of people who are in ESOPs, employee stock ownership plans-
24. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
25. MCMark Cuban
  ... versus everybody else?" It's dramatically higher.
26. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
27. MCMark Cuban
  It's not even close.
28. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
29. MCMark Cuban
  They make more than union employees.
30. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14:17 – 16:00
Populism, Policy, and Political Strategy
1. ETErik Torenberg
  Do we think that... I guess, you know, d- it seems like the Mamdani sort of like socially progressive, economically, uh, populist, um, sort of, you know, combination, AOC in a different way, you know, Bernie without sort of, you know, he was the pertaversion. It-- is that the future of the Democratic Party?
2. MCMark Cuban
  Um, he learned from Trump.
3. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah. [chuckles]
4. MCMark Cuban
  He's the progressive Trump.
5. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah, yeah.
6. MCMark Cuban
  Just lie.
7. ETErik Torenberg
  [laughing] Yeah.
8. MCMark Cuban
  You know.
9. ETErik Torenberg
  [chuckles]
10. MCMark Cuban
  Chea-- Day one, groceries are going to be cheaper. I'll just open, I'll open the grocery store 'cause I'll sound more progressive that way.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
12. MCMark Cuban
  Right? Day one, buses are free. And then everything else, he kind of mealy-mouthed back to the middle.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and kind of gives a little bit on the edge to, for the progressives to be happy.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
16. MCMark Cuban
  But he's smart. Starts saying, "I'm reducing grocery prices. Trump is increasing. I'm reducing them day one," right. "When we have the House back-
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
18. MCMark Cuban
  ... we are going to reduce grocery prices." How are you gonna do it? "Uh, we're going to do it, trust me." Because that's the bifurcation between Trump fans-
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
20. MCMark Cuban
  ... and Trump haters.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  But in terms of substance, do you think the future Democratic Party is more like a Bernie Sanders economic populism or do you think it's more-
22. MCMark Cuban
  I don't know
23. ETErik Torenberg
  ... you know, Mark Cuban?
24. MCMark Cuban
  I don't know.
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
26. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah, I think, I think whatever gets results.
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  You know, I give Bernie credit because he was the first to talking about a living wage.
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
30. MCMark Cuban
  And it took him decades.
16:00 – 17:03
The Role of Technology in Government
1. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
2. MCMark Cuban
  Because you gotta be able to sell.
3. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
4. MCMark Cuban
  Gotta be-- understand technology and gotta be able to implement technologies. And I said this to Jason Calacanis 15 years ago maybe.
5. ETErik Torenberg
  Wow.
6. MCMark Cuban
  I'm like: Look, if we can improve efficiency and reduce the cost of government-
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
8. MCMark Cuban
  ... you can increase the money you give to people.
9. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
10. MCMark Cuban
  Take half the savings, here's a bigger check.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Wow.
12. MCMark Cuban
  Right? That's what the Democrats could be doing. We wanna give you more money.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14. MCMark Cuban
  Right? That's what the Republicans do great. We're making a promise.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  Democrats, we're gonna use AI, and if we need to give it UBI, if we need to tax robot-
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
18. MCMark Cuban
  ... robots, we're gonna tax robots, you know, the whole Bill Gates thing-
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
20. MCMark Cuban
  ... a quarter hour, dollar an hour, whatever, and then we're gonna take the benefit of that and write you a check.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
22. MCMark Cuban
  That's gonna be your UBI or your tax credit or whatever. They just don't think like that.
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
24. MCMark Cuban
  They don't think, "Where is the solution? How do I get there? How do I sell it in a form that's easy to digest so people-
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
26. MCMark Cuban
  ... understand it?" They don't get AI is, like, going to change everything.
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  You know, how can we not use this in government to be more effective?
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
30. MCMark Cuban
  It-- I mean, that's, that's the whole point, isn't
17:03 – 18:49
AI’s Impact on Education
1. MCMark Cuban
  it?
2. ETErik Torenberg
  Right. Let, let's go deeper there 'cause I know AI is one of the things you wanted to chat about, something you spend a lot, a lot of time thinking about. When you look out at the next few years, what, what do you think is underappreciated or, or under-realized about how AI is going to change a specific category or a specific way of life?
3. MCMark Cuban
  I think it democratizes a lot of things.
4. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
5. MCMark Cuban
  You know, particularly education. Um, while I understand the fear, and the first pass is never the way it ends up.
6. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
7. MCMark Cuban
  You know, I got two kids in college now and one in high school. Hell yeah, they cheat with it.
8. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah. [chuckles]
9. MCMark Cuban
  You know? They do.
10. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
11. MCMark Cuban
  But then I started talking to this teacher from Pennsylvania, I forget what town in Pennsylvania, and she just emailed me and she was like, "What can I do to integrate AI into my classroom where it's not just them giving me answers to questions?"
12. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
13. MCMark Cuban
  And I said, "Well, you know, make it more like Jeopardy!"
14. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
15. MCMark Cuban
  Right? And it-- she's like, "Well, okay, here are the four causes. You, use ChatGPT to find the four causes of the American Revolution-
16. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
17. MCMark Cuban
  ... and write up what this says, and then we're gonna discuss in class, a- and you pick which one do you think is the most impactful."
18. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
19. MCMark Cuban
  "And then we'll discuss that in class." Just changing the paradigm of how they would do things. And so, but back to your question, I think d-democratization of education is key because a kid with a cell phone can... a, and internet access can go to, you know, any large language model and ask anything.
20. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
21. MCMark Cuban
  And ask it to, you know, "Hey, I'm, I'm eight years old and I wanna learn to speak Polish 'cause my grandmother's from Poland."
22. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
23. MCMark Cuban
  "Would you put together a class for me and give me, you know, and teach me how to speak Polish?"
24. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
25. MCMark Cuban
  It will.
26. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
27. MCMark Cuban
  How else are they gonna do that? You know, sign up for Duolingo?
28. ETErik Torenberg
  [chuckles]
29. MCMark Cuban
  Right? You know, you know, I'm, I'm really curious about baseball.
30. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
18:49 – 21:55
AI and the Future of Healthcare
1. ETErik Torenberg
  How, how about in healthcare? It's an area you've spent a ton of time in with, with Cost Plus Drugs. Right now, you know, healthcare's, like, twenty percent or something of the economy.
2. MCMark Cuban
  Yep.
3. ETErik Torenberg
  In the future, is that number going higher? Is that number going lower? You know, talk about-
4. MCMark Cuban
  So-
5. ETErik Torenberg
  ... what's gonna happen there.
6. MCMark Cuban
  It'll go higher, but because we're gonna get some amazing treatments.
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Oh, interesting. So the product will get better, the service will get better.
8. MCMark Cuban
  Right. 'Cause now you get, you know, single treatment cures that might cost three million dollars.
9. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
10. MCMark Cuban
  That, you know, that jacks up the total cost.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
12. MCMark Cuban
  But in terms of how we do healthcare, I-- everything I do, I put into ChatGPT project first.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and share it with the doctor, and then I ask my doctor, "Do you use this stuff or open evidence?"
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  They're like, "Hell yeah, we do it."
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
18. MCMark Cuban
  So I think healthcare will get better qualitatively. I think we'll be, uh, we'll benchmark ourselves a lot more, and that'll make us healthier-
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
20. MCMark Cuban
  ... in a lot of ways. I think where the challenge and the hard part is, other than the obvious, you know, optimization and processes in hospitals and all that, the challenge is how we value IP.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
22. MCMark Cuban
  Because if I'm MD Anderson, um, if I'm Stanford, any research hospital, any scientist in healthcare, you're an idiot if you publish it.
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
24. MCMark Cuban
  You're an idiot if you patent it, because it's immediately going to get absorbed into a large language model.
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
26. MCMark Cuban
  And you've lost control of it, and you've lost ownership of it. And I think what's going to happen is, you know, and I've said this as I've talked to CEOs of, of research hospitals, et cetera, "You need to silo your stuff."
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  "And you need to take what you've siloed and either do your own model or put it out to bid."
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
30. MCMark Cuban
  And let the, the foundational models compete, because they're in a death war.
21:55 – 29:46
Insurance, PBMs, and Healthcare Reform
1. MCMark Cuban
  for what you're trying to accomplish.
2. ETErik Torenberg
  If you could wave a wand and change anything about how we do healthcare i, in this country or where we can learn from other countries that... W- what would you change?
3. MCMark Cuban
  You get rid of the insurance companies and the PBMs.
4. ETErik Torenberg
  Hmm.
5. MCMark Cuban
  Because they do all they can to not take risk.
6. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
7. MCMark Cuban
  And they do all they can to introduce opacity to the system. And if you look at, you know, particularly on the drug side, if you look at all the other countries, we're trying to do MFNs to match their pricing.
8. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
9. MCMark Cuban
  They don't have PBMs.
10. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
11. MCMark Cuban
  You know, when you look at the internals, the biggest PBMs cause all the problems. Like, literally, um, we get emails all the time, people who are on Medicare Part D for, um, drugs come to Cost Plus Drugs 'cause we're cheaper than their co-pays.
12. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
13. MCMark Cuban
  That makes no sense, but it's the federal government that approves those plans, and those plans in Medicare Part D are run by i- individual insurance companies. Then if you look on a bigger, um, platform just for healthcare in general, you know, think about how ca- healthcare works here, a- age of sixty. You have an insurance company.
14. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
15. MCMark Cuban
  You... Do you guys self-insure? Do you know?
16. ETErik Torenberg
  I just joined, so I'm gonna [chuckles]
17. MCMark Cuban
  Oh, you're... Okay.
18. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
19. MCMark Cuban
  So, you know-
20. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
21. MCMark Cuban
  ... let's just pretend you self-insure.
22. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
23. MCMark Cuban
  You're one of the bigger companies.
24. ETErik Torenberg
  Sure.
25. MCMark Cuban
  So an insurance company comes to you knowing you self-insure.
26. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
27. MCMark Cuban
  Right? And they put together a list of plans.
28. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
29. MCMark Cuban
  And then those plans, no one ever asks why were those plans defined the way they were.
30. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
29:46 – 33:54
Entrepreneurship & AI-Native Careers
1. ETErik Torenberg
  The, so you've built Cost Plus Drugs partially because you have this, well, you care about it obviously. Uh, you have this distribution advantage. You have the capital advantage to get it started. Um, let's imagine if you were a young entrepreneur, you know, a mid-twentysomething Mark Cuban in, in twenty twenty-five and trying to, you know, be immensely successful like you've been. How, how would you think about that? Or what, what would you pursue?
2. MCMark Cuban
  For Cost Plus Drugs or just in general?
3. ETErik Torenberg
  No, no, no. You as entrepreneur.
4. MCMark Cuban
  Oh. Like, if I was just getting out of college right now?
5. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah, yeah.
6. MCMark Cuban
  Oh, I'd be all AI every day.
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah, yeah.
8. MCMark Cuban
  Right? Um, 'cause I think the disconnect, I think employment for computer science graduates, and I said this ten years ago, I got crushed. Twenty seventeen actually. I said, "You know, AI is gonna put programmers-
9. ETErik Torenberg
  Hmm
10. MCMark Cuban
  ... out of business at the early-
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
12. MCMark Cuban
  ... um, beginning stage programmers." Um, and people said, "Oh, you're an idiot." But now big companies are gonna find ways to use AI.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14. MCMark Cuban
  So they're, they're gonna reduce. You saw Salesforce or wherever laid off people. Um, small companies have no clue.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and there are only twenty-two thousand company-- I remember this from the Kama- Kamala campaign. Twenty-two thousand companies with five hundred or more employees.
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Hmm.
18. MCMark Cuban
  Thirty millionRight. Now, a lot of them are single entrepreneurs, but, you know, five million have five hundred or less. That's where you want to go try to get a job.
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
20. MCMark Cuban
  Because if you're AI native, because you've been using it through your four years of college-
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
22. MCMark Cuban
  ... or two years le- you know, or, you know, two years from now, having had four years experience, they need you.
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
24. MCMark Cuban
  You know, maybe they have one person who's picked it up, two people.
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
26. MCMark Cuban
  But if you have a business background, which you can learn in school, and you become an AI native, you can walk into a small company and say, "I can help you."
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
28. MCMark Cuban
  "I can create agents for you that'll go out and look for things." We had, um... One of my Shark Tank companies is Rebel Cheese, and they added a, um, direct-to-consumer business, and they created an agent that compares the weight that comes off a scale for what they're saying or the box type, and what they were invoiced by, um, UPS or FedEx and compared to the price list. Always got overcharged. Always.
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
30. MCMark Cuban
  This little company is saving, you know, thousands of dollars a week just by using an agent, you know, and it was not anything difficult-
33:54 – 40:05
Business Success, Investing, and the NBA
1. ETErik Torenberg
  I wanna zoom out and talk just general business s-success and advice. The internet lists your net worth, I believe, at o-over eight, eight billion or-
2. MCMark Cuban
  I don't know
3. ETErik Torenberg
  ... or something to that effect. Uh, but one thing that, you know, typically when, when people become super wealthy, it's because of like one big thing.
4. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah.
5. ETErik Torenberg
  But it seems like you've sort of compounded w-we-wealth in decades, and I, I think the biggest liquidity events, though, though I may have them wrong, are the, the company you sold and the, the factor-
6. MCMark Cuban
  And the, and the Mavs. Yeah
7. ETErik Torenberg
  ... and, and so, and then there've been other, other effort. What do you think is the thread, the through line, when you look at your career and the ways in which you've made money, um, that others can learn from?
8. MCMark Cuban
  I look at business as a sport.
9. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
10. MCMark Cuban
  Right? And I just love to compete.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
12. MCMark Cuban
  You know, and that keeps me going just... You know, there's always something new and always something changing, and it's almost like the, the forums, right? I j- I just like to be intellectually challenged.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14. MCMark Cuban
  When I first started, I was always the youngest guy walking in the room.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  Now I'm the oldest guy walking in the room.
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
18. MCMark Cuban
  And I like kicking everybody's ass where I can, right?
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
20. MCMark Cuban
  You know, you went, you got your CS degree from Harvard.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
22. MCMark Cuban
  Fuck you. I don't care, right?
23. ETErik Torenberg
  [laughs]
24. MCMark Cuban
  Sounds like Glenn Garrity doing Ross. Um...
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
26. MCMark Cuban
  You know, but I, I like that challenge.
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  And I understand patterns, and I understand being able to create new things, and I think that's served me w-really well. It's like Cost Plus Drugs.
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
30. MCMark Cuban
  You know, we launched in January of twenty twenty-two. We're serving millions of customers.
40:05 – 42:40
Luka Trade, Cooper Flagg, and the New CBA
1. ETErik Torenberg
  I was so devastated by, by it that it seemed so unfair for the, the Mavs not to get picks back or Austin Reaves or whatever. I don't wanna really-
2. MCMark Cuban
  [laughs]
3. ETErik Torenberg
  I was complaining to my girlfriend at the time, [chuckles] you know, like many people were. And I, I even remember reading this, this conspiracy theory that it was on purpose to take-
4. MCMark Cuban
  So that-
5. ETErik Torenberg
  -the value of the franchise to then move to, you know-
6. MCMark Cuban
  To Vegas?
7. ETErik Torenberg
  -Las Vegas. Yeah.
8. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah, no.
9. ETErik Torenberg
  And I was like, "Oh, this is the only way it can make sense." [chuckles]
10. MCMark Cuban
  No.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  How do we not get more for Luka in the, in this trade?
12. MCMark Cuban
  I wish I knew.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  [laughs]
14. MCMark Cuban
  I wish I knew.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  But, but then the Cooper Flagg thing, I mean, it's a... [laughs] The world works mysterious-
16. MCMark Cuban
  The basketball gods, yeah. The basketball gods were looking kindly upon us.
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah, world works in, uh, in mysterious ways, but... So I have a dream to be a part-owner someday as, as well.
18. MCMark Cuban
  Uh-huh.
19. ETErik Torenberg
  And I've wondered if, if the strategy is either to compete for a championship or do the Oklahoma City Thunder, where you trade for picks.
20. MCMark Cuban
  So-
21. ETErik Torenberg
  What do you think?
22. MCMark Cuban
  I think the Thunder methodology is better now-
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
24. MCMark Cuban
  -with the new CBA.
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
26. MCMark Cuban
  Um, every new CBA creates transitional issues-
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  -where your, your decisions were made in a legacy environment-
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
30. MCMark Cuban
  -and they just changed all the rules.
42:40 – 51:05
Max Deals, Second Stars, and Apron Math
1. MCMark Cuban
  y- if you have your one generational player, you pay him whatever it takes.
2. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
3. MCMark Cuban
  Because, because of the, the max contracts, they by definition are undervalued.
4. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
5. MCMark Cuban
  So the, the generational player, you always pay whatever it takes. It's the next person, if they're not a generational player, how do you deal with that?
6. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
7. MCMark Cuban
  That's the hard part. And when you see, like you saw with certain players, that teams couldn't get off of them-
8. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
9. MCMark Cuban
  ... either because of age or, you know, they were a max player by the rules of the game eight years ago-
10. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
11. MCMark Cuban
  ... four years ago, but they're not any longer. That's where the challenges happen.
12. ETErik Torenberg
  Right. If you were making decisions for the Mavs now, uh, given where everything is, w- how... what would you be thinking about, or the big questions or?
13. MCMark Cuban
  Develop Cooper-
14. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
15. MCMark Cuban
  ... first and foremost.
16. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
17. MCMark Cuban
  You know, um, now we, we've got AD, we've got Anthony Davis, we've got Kyrie who'll be coming back, but just ha- and Klay, just having those Hall of Famers there-
18. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
19. MCMark Cuban
  ... you couldn't ask for anything better in terms of-
20. ETErik Torenberg
  Right
21. MCMark Cuban
  ... development support.
22. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
23. MCMark Cuban
  And so I think we, we have to focus on staying healthy-
24. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
25. MCMark Cuban
  ... getting Kyrie back. Um-
26. ETErik Torenberg
  It's interesting with two timelines. You know-
27. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah. Two tim-
28. ETErik Torenberg
  ... the Warriors tried to do it, but they couldn't exactly pull it off, um, although they've done great. [chuckles] But these sort of, you know, older players and then, you know, Cooper-
29. MCMark Cuban
  It's hard, like where the Warriors are now.
30. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
51:05 – 56:24
Family Time and an Unconventional Investing Style
1. ETErik Torenberg
  do- doing all these investments, all, all this staff. You seem to run kind of a lean op- op- operation-
2. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah
3. ETErik Torenberg
  ... more flexible.
4. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah.
5. ETErik Torenberg
  How, how, how have you thought about the efforts that you want to get involved with, not want to get involved with, how thin to spread yourself, so to speak?
6. MCMark Cuban
  Well, I mean, I, I got out of Shark Tank.
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
8. MCMark Cuban
  I got out of Mavs-
9. ETErik Torenberg
  Got the Mavs
10. MCMark Cuban
  ... so I could spend more time with my kids.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
12. MCMark Cuban
  You know, that, that's number one.
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
14. MCMark Cuban
  'Cause they're sixteen, nineteen, and about to turn twenty-two.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  They're heading out on their own.
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
18. MCMark Cuban
  So I, I just wanna spend that time that I can with them. But I think the difference is, for me versus everybody else, I'm not looking... My goal is not to make as much money as I can.
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
20. MCMark Cuban
  Like, I do investing.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
22. MCMark Cuban
  But honestly, it's just sh- people email me.
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah. [laughs]
24. MCMark Cuban
  I mean, like I saw a list of who has the most unicorns-
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
26. MCMark Cuban
  ... and I, I, I was like, I had like eleven.
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  And all of them were just from email. Somebody emailing me saying, "Check this out, check this out, check this out."
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
30. MCMark Cuban
  Like Synthesia, you know, I was their first investor.
56:24 – 1:01:05
Making AI Popular and Closing Notes
1. ETErik Torenberg
  advice-- in closing, what advice do you have for us in Silicon Valley or just tech more broadly who are building with AI on how to make it more popular so that we don't have this big backlash?
2. MCMark Cuban
  Um, you have to get with either party and communicate to people the upside.
3. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah, 'cause they, they see the down- they see, "Hey, maybe my job is being taken away."
4. MCMark Cuban
  Yeah. And they, and that's, that's, you know, going back to what I said earlier, there will be disintermediation.
5. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
6. MCMark Cuban
  But I don't think the net number of jobs is going to decrease.
7. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
8. MCMark Cuban
  I think everything gets reinvented-
9. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
10. MCMark Cuban
  ... because AI right now is not smart.
11. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
12. MCMark Cuban
  You know, it's statistical-
13. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
14. MCMark Cuban
  ... in a lot of respects. Robotics, on the other hand, is getting smart. You know, robotics, if you, you know, clean my bedroom, it has to know, you know, to pick up the sheets and all this stuff. But I think the combination of the two will create unique opportunities for jobs.
15. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
16. MCMark Cuban
  Um, I think domain expertise is always going to be necessary, um, to train models. But I think bigger picture, when, like, we look at a house, everything's designed for the human form, and right now robotics is trying to emulate the human form 'cause that's what we've always done with software.
17. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
18. MCMark Cuban
  We just emulated what we already did and tried to optimize it. You don't just-- If you can create devices, robots that can look like anything, and you want them to be domestic in some way, you don't build houses the way we do now.
19. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
20. MCMark Cuban
  And I think there's gonna be a lot of jobs that go in different directions, and I think Silicon Valley has gotta do a much better job demonstrating those jobs, hiring people for those jobs, um, supporting people that are concerned about their jobs, um, even teachers. You know? Now, when we look at AI tools, you can read papers faster. That's not gonna change anything.
21. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
22. MCMark Cuban
  You're just doing it the same way.
23. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
24. MCMark Cuban
  You know? But if a teacher can use AI to, um, customize responses to kids to help them learn, like you said, um, AI tutors-
25. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah
26. MCMark Cuban
  ... right, but in a classroom, you're gonna keep your job longer.
27. ETErik Torenberg
  Yeah.
28. MCMark Cuban
  We, we need more teachers, not fewer teachers.
29. ETErik Torenberg
  Right.
30. MCMark Cuban
  Um, but AI doesn't-- I mean, Silicon Valley doesn't communicate that at all.

Episode duration: 1:01:06

Install uListen for AI-powered chat & search across the full episode — Get Full Transcript

Transcript of episode HON8PRwII4s

Get more out of YouTube videos.

High quality summaries for YouTube videos. Accurate transcripts to search & find moments. Powered by ChatGPT & Claude AI.

Add to Chrome