$1.25 billion Unicorn. Only 2 Product Managers. The Linear Method:

1. AGAakash Gupta0:00

   Linear just raised their Series C at a $1.25B valuation. Nan Yu is the Head of Product at Linear. OpenAI, Perplexity, Cursor. Why are all the AI companies using Linear?

2. NYNan Yu0:12

   When they were first getting started, the thing that mattered the absolute most to them, and, and still is today, is just speed of operations, and Linear has always been built for speed.

3. AGAakash Gupta0:20

   A lot of it comes down to how you guys build product, this Linear Method. So how would you summarize, what's the 60-second pitch for what the Linear Method is?

4. NYNan Yu0:29

   The core of the Linear Method is just directness. If you look at a lot of the practices that's very prevalent in the software industry, they're all strangely indirect, right? Like, things like user stories where people kind of, like, tell, you know, they have this format and they say, like, you know, the actor and the desired action, all this kind of stuff. They say it and it's just like, "Yeah, but, like, what do you actually want me to do?" "Well, I want you to, you know, when you click a button, this- it sends an email." Like, why didn't you just say that?

5. AGAakash Gupta0:49

   I think there's this tension people feel between speed and quality.

6. NYNan Yu0:55

   To me, that's something of a, it's almost of, like, a false dichotomy. I think OKRs are a tool that makes sense in certain circumstances, but I think they're largely overused. A lot of times it's like, "Deliver this feature." That's their OKR. It's like, that's not an OKR. That's somebody shoehorning in the direct thing that they want to say. You don't want to be in this weird process of, like, sprinting and being exhausted, and sprinting and being exhausted again so that when new information comes, you're just, you're not ready to handle it.

7. AGAakash Gupta1:20

   Really quickly, I think a crazy stat is that more than 50% of you listening are not subscribed. If you can subscribe on YouTube, follow on Apple or Spotify Podcasts, my commitment to you is that we'll continue to make this content better and better. And now on to today's episode. Nan, welcome to the podcast.

8. NYNan Yu1:41

   Uh, great to be here.

9. AGAakash Gupta1:44

   One of the craziest things that I've seen in your guys' rise, and I have to admit, I've been following you since way before you were a unicorn, is how many of the AI companies are using you? OpenAI, Perplexity, Cursor. Why are all the O- AI companies using Linear?

10. NYNan Yu2:02

    I, I, I think, like, you know, when they were first getting started, the thing that mattered the absolute most to them, and, and still is today, uh, is, is just speed of operations. And, you know, Linear has always been built for speed. Um, speed in every sense of the word. You know, you know, people kind of, on the surface level, just all the interactions are very quick, but they're also very direct. So when you're, when you're taking any kind of action inside of Linear, things are very obvious in terms of what to do. You don't have to kind of sit there and figure the system out. You just, you know, kind of get in and out of it quickly, and then get back to the thing that you're actually focused on, right? For them, it's, it's actually building their companies.

11. AGAakash Gupta2:39

    I think that part of it also is that Linear seems to be part of the new tool stack. Like, the best new companies are using Linear versus companies that were started, like, 10 years ago. There was a different tool stack in place. It seems like you guys are part of the new generation.

12. NYNan Yu2:58

    Uh, yeah. I mean, I, I think that, you know, the, every, every so often, you know, you kind of step back and take a look at your tooling and really, like, the, the values that people have in terms of how they want to get their work done and, and what they prioritize have, you know, kind of changed very dramatically. Um, you know, something that we, uh, kind of really recognize is that people, you know, have, have been doing this software development thing for a while, right? If you think of, like, the entire history of the, of the, of the discipline, it's still very young, but, you know, we- we're at a point where, um, a lot of the, the core skills are kind of baked into the muscle memory of people's workflows.

13. AGAakash Gupta3:37

    Mm-hmm.

14. NYNan Yu3:38

    So, you know, we can build new tools assuming that baseline, right? There's, like, people are not clueless anymore. They're ready, they're ready to go. Everyone knows how to use Git. You know, we're, we're kind of ready to, uh, to start from there as a, as a starting point. So I think Linear, like, comes, you know, with a lot of those assumptions baked in.

15. AGAakash Gupta3:53

    If you had to summarize, like, Linear's functionality, how would you summarize that?

16. NYNan Yu3:59

    Um, you know, fundamentally, we're a project management tool for, uh, software development teams. Um, a lot of the primitives inside of Linear, uh, you know, are, are really optimized for that, right? Like, uh, things like every single issue come with, like, a, like, a, you know, a preset branch name so you don't have to, like, stop in the middle of your process and make sure you're, like, following all the naming conventions and all that kind of stuff, right? So, like, a lot of those, uh, little rough edges that people run into, you know, and are very accustomed to, honestly, like, every day, you know, we try to sand those off and, and kind of make the process even smoother for you.

17. AGAakash Gupta4:30

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18. NYNan Yu6:42

    Yeah. I, I, I think, you know, for, for us, like, the Linear method is, it's not just how we build products, it's how we help our users and our customers build products. So it's a, it's a little bit, you know, kind of self-referential and, and meant that way. But the, the core of the Linear method is, uh, is just directness, right? If you, if you look at a lot of the practices, um, that, uh, you know, have been very prevalent in the software industry, they're, they're all strangely indirect, right? Like, things like user stories where people kind of, like, tell, you know, they have this format and they say, like, you know, the actor and the desired action, all this kind of stuff. They say it and it's just like, "Yeah, yeah, but, like, what do you actually want me to do?" "Well, I want you to, you know, when you click a button, this, it sends an email." It's like, "Why didn't you just say that?" "Well, you know, because all this other stuff." And I, I think that that scaffolding that, you know, people, you know, ha- have, like, traditionally done, it's, it's been there because the business stakeholders didn't understand how software works or people are just unfamiliar with how computers work and things like that. Like, like I said before, we are at a, a moment where, like, we can rebase, right? In a universe where everyone's online by default, like, the internet is, like, the main place people hang out. Like, people know how computers work. So if that's the case, then what are the, what are the new assumptions that we get to make?

19. AGAakash Gupta7:55

    And you obviously aren't new to product either. You were a CTO at Everlane. You were VP at Mode. What struck you as you've spent the last couple years at Linear as different about how you guys build product?

20. NYNan Yu8:10

    I, I, I think, you know, like, if you look at the, the, the newer wave of companies, there is this, um, this desire to keep the company as small as possible, and I think that Linear is definitely, you know, like, an example of that, right? We, you know, we -- The question we always ask is, like, okay, like, here's what we need to do. How few people can we hire in order to do this effectively? And, and I, I think that that's, you know, partly, you know, uh, a function of, like, the funding environment, uh, that we grew up in and, and, and, and the sort of, uh, new tools that are available to us. But I think a lot of ti- you know, the biggest difference that I've seen, right, between previous, uh, you know, kind of eras that I've worked in and, and now is, um, like, no, no one brags about how big their company is anymore, right? It's like, it's kind of the opposite.

21. AGAakash Gupta9:02

    So I wanna pull up the Linear Method website because a lot of people have actually pointed me to this website when I ask them, "Oh, how are you guys building things?" And they say, "We keep coming back to this website." It's this beautifully designed page, right? So if I go into these principles and practices here, can you talk us through these a little bit? How did you guys come to these principles, and what do they mean to you?

22. NYNan Yu9:24

    Yeah. I, I, I think, you know, the, the, the overriding things that these, um, these principles try to get at is be really, really direct and, uh, and be very fast, right? You know, when we talk about meaningful direction, being purpose-built, these are ways to directly solve people's problems, okay? You're not, you're not building for yourself, you're building for somebody else. You're solving real problems for real people. And, uh, and then creating momentum, right? It's, it's like, how do you, how do you get to, you know, h- how do you maintain enough flexibility but also keep, uh, enough of a pace to, you know, react to things that you learn in the wild, right? If your users hate a feature, if they really love something, you're gonna, you're gonna take that information, you're gonna feed it back. And the only way to do it effectively is to, you know, have some kind of baseline velocity, right? Have momentum so that you, you know, you're ready to, to react to it. But you don't wanna be, you know, in this weird process of, like, sprinting and being exhausted and sprinting and being exhausted again so that, you know, when new information comes, you're just, you're not ready to handle it. You're just, like, exhausted from the previous sprint and you're not ready to, to go. So, like, that's what, you know, we really try to, uh, you know, try to, try to embrace, right? Be direct and also kind of keep, uh, keep the momentum going so that you, you know, you're ready to react to the wild.

23. AGAakash Gupta10:46

    I think there's this tension people feel between speed and quality. How do you guys negotiate that tension?

24. NYNan Yu10:55

    [laughs] Um, I, you know, I, I, I think, like, to me, that's something of a, it's almost of, like, a false dichotomy, right? You know, like, tho- those are very overloaded words, and I think what, when people say that there's a trade-off between speed and quality, what they, what they're really trying to say is, uh, they don't want people to, um, they don't want people to cut corners, right? And they're like, "Don't take shortcuts. Don't put in hacks. Don't do those kinds of things." Um, but I think for, for software especially, if you have a high-quality code base and, you know, really strong abstractions and good concepts in there, uh, you don't really feel a need to put in hacks. And I, and I, I think that that's, that's, that's the sort of conundrum that you're, you're dealing with, that if you find yourself in a situation in which it's, it's, you know, you, you're tempted to take these kinds of shortcuts, there's probably something wrong upstream about the quality of the, the software to begin with that kinda put you in that situation. So, you know, what we try to do is, like, kind of think through these things and not get ourselves into a point where we're, where we actually have that kind of temptation.

25. AGAakash Gupta12:00

    One of the most powerful principles I think you guys have here is say no to busywork. How does that-- How do you implement that day to day?

26. NYNan Yu12:09

    I, I think, y- you know, a, a lot of busy work is a result of indecision, and it's a result of like, uh, like lack, like a... Once again, like lack of clarity, lack of directness. So, you know, if you think about busywork, it's like, "What do you want to do?" "Well, we're gonna collect a bunch of data. We're gonna run a bunch of AB tests. We're gonna do all this stuff." And usually what that reflects is there's, there's some lack of clarity in the first place for, you know, what you were trying to do. Because, you know, like a lot of times, if you, if you think about what's the, what's the best way to understand the world is to like have some mental model of it and then act really aggressively in a way that's very falsifiable, right? If the w- if the w- if the world does not w- operate how you think, it will tell you very quickly, right, and very loudly. And if you're able to do that, then you don't have to waffle. You don't have to do a bunch of make work and, and do a bunch of analysis or whatever it is. You can just build the thing and then see how the world reacts, and if it reacts poorly, then you can change your mind. You've learned something.

27. AGAakash Gupta13:18

    One of the things that I heard listening to these principles, and I think I had a misconception of prior to this interview, was around roadmaps. What's your guys' take on roadmaps?

28. NYNan Yu13:29

    I, I think, you know, ro- roadmaps generally are useful tools, right? They, they... They're an expression of, of intent, right? And they help like align a lot of people who are, you know, uh, who otherwise, you know, they have... Everyone's got their own idea of, of, you know, what the, what the current consensus is and, and where we're going. So I think as a, as a, as a tool, you know, very useful. Um, I think, you know, the, the one aspect of roadmaps is you kind of have to be ready to change them at a moment's notice, right? 'Cause it's an expression of intent, and your intent is gonna be completely a function of like what your latest information is and what your best information is. So if you get a bunch of new information and somehow your roadmap stays the same because that's, I don't know, some- someone's idea of what it... of, of what ought to be, I think that that's, that's where the problems start coming, coming around, right? Like, you can't treat the roadmap as, as, you know, somehow it's blessed and it's sacred and you can't touch it. You know, you h- you have to, you have to assume that it's, it's just the, the reflection of your best knowledge at the moment.

29. AGAakash Gupta14:29

    What type of roadmaps are you creating then? Are you mainly focused on the short term, like this quarter or the next couple work cycles? How granular are you getting?

30. NYNan Yu14:41

    I, I think we, you know, we plan for maybe three quarters out, like at all, and then, um, and then, you know, with, with dramatically less certainty as it, as it gets further out.

Episode duration: 1:00:20