Complete Vibe Coding Tutorial: Build a Full Stack App with AI | Andy Carroll (Windsurf)

1. AGAakash Gupta0:00

   What is vibe coding?

2. ACAndy Carroll0:01

   I think it's really about humans and AI tools vibing together to create new products, new services, to bring new things to life. Business leaders overwhelmed with the amount of noise that they're hearing about AI, but many struggle how huge a time saving this is. But to me, this just feels effortless, right? It's click a few buttons and, um, you do need to be really kind of careful though. I've actually been working in product for about 16 years and, um, didn't come from a technical background. So the right answer on the internet is to post the wrong answer.

3. AGAakash Gupta0:31

   Yes. [chuckles] The fastest way to get a good design is to put a bad design in front of your designer.

4. ACAndy Carroll0:37

   Exactly. When we start out, right, let's define what it is that we're actually trying to achieve, what is gonna make this unique, and let's focus almost all of our energy on making that part of the product really, really great.

5. AGAakash Gupta0:51

   In today's episode, I sit down with Andy Carroll, a PM of over 15 years, and we walk you through how to vibe code. We'll specifically use Windsurf and show you how you can deploy websites, create mobile applications. If you have been interested in learning more about vibe coding or Windsurf, and if you are a PM interested in understanding whether you should be vibe coding or using Windsurf, we will cover all of that. So without further ado, let's get into today's episode. Really quickly, I think a crazy stat is that more than 50% of you listening are not subscribed. If you can subscribe on YouTube, follow on Apple or Spotify podcasts, my commitment to you is that we'll continue to make this content better and better. And now on to today's episode. Andy Carroll, thank you so much for being here.

6. ACAndy Carroll1:41

   Thank you, Aakash. I'm extremely excited to be here.

7. AGAakash Gupta1:45

   We're both longtime PMs. Neither of us are particularly technical in our last few roles, and so today I wanna break down something that a lot of people in our position might be looking at, vibe coding. What is vibe coding?

8. ACAndy Carroll1:59

   Sure. Um, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Um, I've actually been working in product for about 16 years and, um, didn't come from a technical background. Um, I'd describe myself as, uh, technical enough to be dangerous. Um, but, um, you know, to be able to have an informed conversation with engineers and with designers and to understand how things are built, but certainly not to really get stuck in and actually write the code myself. And, um, I think one of the most transformative developments, uh, in the AI space over the last, you know, few, few months and years has been the introduction of these AI-powered, um, integrated development tools, uh, like Replit and Cursor, both new, Lovable, and the list goes on and on. And, um, vibe coding is the process, uh, I think, uh, uh, I think they may be drawing some inspiration from, uh, the jazz kind of movement, but, um, I think it's, it's really about humans and AI tools vibing together, uh, to create, um, new products, new services, to bring new things to life. And, um, so certainly, um, although the term does make me cringe a little bit, um, for me, it's, it really is about, um, making, making something and really just sort of seeing where it takes you. So a lot of the time it's, um, planning enough to get to the next step and then really being open to exploration, and this is where I think these AI tools are just, you know, unbelievable.

9. AGAakash Gupta3:28

   Yeah. I believe the term came from Andrej Karpathy. He was early at OpenAI. He worked at Tesla AI. He himself is pretty technical, but he talks about this process of vibe coding, where he just lets the tools do most of the coding. And so that's what I wanna walk people through today. What is your tool of choice for vibe coding?

10. ACAndy Carroll3:47

    Sure. So like I mentioned, there, there are many, and I've probably forgotten quite a few. Um, and as I said to you earlier, you kind of have to, uh, pick your weapon of choice. Um, the one that I use most heavily is called Windsurf. Um, I think the company that built it was called Codium, and I-- they may have rebranded as a result 'cause Windsurf has become the, the flagship thing. Um, but it's, um... I suppose w-when I think about these tools, there, there are a number, um, and they sort of hit different kind of moments, I think, in, in someone's, um, exploration sort of journey. Um, starting out, uh, I think one of the, um, one or two of the b- the better ones for, um, getting started quickly are probably v0 and Lovable. Um, they have really, uh, amazing-- I mean, Replit similarly, and Replit's got an amazing kind of mobile, um, experience as well. Um, those are very easy places to start and to get something, you know, to do to put together a quick landing page. Um, they've got an amazing community section where you can draw inspiration from other, other things that have been built. But as soon-- W-Where I found myself a little bit limited was actually wanting to get into the full kind of stack and see exactly what was going on throughout, um, sort of the code base, um, and I suppose Windsurf provides more of that experience. So it's more of a full-powered kind of coding editor with an AI copilot, um, that is also, um, pr- which also provides access to all of the leading, uh, LLMs.

11. AGAakash Gupta5:17

    Awesome. So can we see this in action with a little bit of a live cooking session?

12. ACAndy Carroll5:21

    Definitely. Um, so a little bit of background, uh, quickly, um, before we do that. Um, so I'd say I created a GitHub account, uh, about, you know, like I said, fifteen, sixteen years ago, and, um, there wasn't a lot to see in my GitHub account except for a couple of cloned repos and a few other things that people had shared with me. And, um, then just over the last sort of, uh, three, four months, and mainly the last two months, um, the, the number of things that I've started doing has really kind of exploded. Um, and this is all thanks to, um, to, to live coding. So let me share my screen with you. Cool. Now, looking at this can be a little bit overwhelming. I think, um, before I started doing this, I kind ofYou know, I'd, I'd used VS Code as well, and so had some familiarity there. But, um, certainly looking at this was very much the same to me to begin with as looking over a developer's shoulder and seeing, um, you know, loads of complex things, file structures, as you can see over on the left-hand side, and, um, and various other things. But actually, in terms of a, a simple structure, what you have over here on the left-hand side is just a set of folders. These are just my sort of active or some of the active projects that I've got running that I've added to my workspace. So these are the things that I'm currently using, um, actively and, and developing. And like I said, um, to my point, I've probably got a few too many things going on, but this kind of gives you a sense of, um, just, you know, how creative I think these tools can enable you to be and also how much you can achieve, um, in a, a fraction of the time and with a fraction of the resources that was previously possible. Um, and so if you go in here, so, so what, what I've got over here is, um, a project for, you know, a, a few of the clients that I'm working for, as well as some of my, um, my private projects and sort of personal website. And then what, um, what Windsurf gives you is... So the copilot that I mentioned is called Cascade, and you can see over on the right-hand side, top right corner, um, over here, you've got this, um, this little chat widget on the right-hand side. So, um, I'll just close the, the, the conversation that was open there. Now, again, it looks like there's quite a lot to look at, but once you get the hang of it, it, it takes a little bit of getting used to, but it's actually pretty simple. You've got "write" over here, and as it says, when write mode's turned on, Cascade will be able to make changes to your code. This is crucial. Um, I think, um, I [chuckles] I didn't realize that this existed for about the first 40 hours that I used the tool. And, um, one of the things that I would say is that, uh, these tools do have a habit of being slightly overzealous in, um, their, um... Le- let's just say they're very proactive. [chuckles] So you could give it a, a prompt that said something like, um, "Hey," like, "I'm trying to change the font color over there on this page," and then suddenly the whole page would break. And then I'd say, "Well, you know, why did you do that?" And, and, uh, it would just reply, "Oh, sorry, that was a mistake. You know, I just went in and refactored the entire landing page." So do be [chuckles] quite careful. But chat is a safe, a safe place. So chat basically switches off access to all of the live coding editing capabilities. And like I mentioned, you then have access, and I know with, um, with Cursor, there's a similar thing. You've got access to all of the, the big ones. What I have noticed is that DeepSeek is not available in Cursor, and, um, I don't think Groq is either. So I think that, um, what you have access to here, um, gives you, uh, a lot more sort of, uh, capability, a lot more variety. Um, one of the things that I do find is that different things are good for different sort of aspects of, uh, of a project, and this is where I think-- or this is what I found sets Windsurf apart from my initial experience with some of the other simpler tools. Um, you know, what you have here is the ability... So for instance, you can see that you've got Claude 3.7 Sonnet, the thinking model, which is slightly more expensive, and then you've got DeepSeek-R1 as well. Now, both of those models are really useful, um, I find, when you wanna go broad with something. For instance, if you just re- you really wanna kind of... You wanna think something through without getting to a final answer in one shot. So often, if I'm sort of trying to establish context, um, you know, saying, "Okay, well, I'm thinking about building this thing. Help me think through the different pros and cons of various tech stacks that I might choose." For that kind of thing, going broad is really useful. And what I've also found really amazing is just sort of seeing, um, how these things work, right? So as you're doing that, then let's, you know, let, let's, uh, use that as an example. So if I pick 3.7 Sonnet and start having a chat. Um, "Hi there." Um, I... And I'm, I'm still probably overly polite. I think, uh, there's something about, um, you know, I do say please and thank you, but maybe that's 'cause of my fear of, uh-

13. AGAakash Gupta10:32

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14. ACAndy Carroll12:16

    The robots taking over at some p- at some point. But, um, [chuckles] I, uh, wanna start a new project, um, and, uh, f- and, um, uh, want to build a full stack, uh, web app with mobile- Uh, yeah, corresponding, uh, mobile applications. Uh, talk me through.

15. AGAakash Gupta12:51

    So you wanna start a new project. You wanna build a full stack web app with corresponding mobile app, and you're gonna ask Talky to-

16. ACAndy Carroll12:57

    Yeah, talk me, talk me through the process, uh, you know, uh, ask me, uh, questions. Now, typically, you know, um, you know, w- with the, the, the idea of vibe coding here is very much, you know, you can start with, uh, an idea, a very clear idea, and we- we'll, I think we'll get to one of those, um, in just a moment. But you can also start with something completely open-ended and just get, you know, and just say, "Well," you know, and, and what's probably gonna come back is, "Well, what do you wanna achieve? Who might this be for?" Um, but you'll see here, so because I've got Claude 3.7 Sonnet Thinking, you should see a thinking process there, right? The user wants to start a new project. Okay, cool. And then it goes back on itself, and it goes, "Right. Let's go." You know, what problem are you solving? Feature requirements. What are the three to five most critical feature requirements, technical considerations, et cetera? Now, one of the big things that I've also been doing, uh, recently is actually to, um, structure a series of, of prompts. I've got a very detailed, um, prompt library as well, which, um, I can, I can show you over here, um, which is, um, all around, uh, building out. B- basically, like, uh, the process of learning all of these things, some of them in really sort of painful and quite expensive ways, [chuckles] has made me get back to a lot of the basics of being a product manager. And actually-

17. AGAakash Gupta14:11

    Sorry to interrupt. Uh-

18. ACAndy Carroll14:12

    Yeah

19. AGAakash Gupta14:12

    ... can you hit "Don't allow" on that Riverside pop-up?

20. ACAndy Carroll14:15

    Oh, sorry. Yeah, sure.

21. AGAakash Gupta14:16

    Sure. All right. Let's go back. Yeah.

22. ACAndy Carroll14:18

    No problem. So, um, like I said, um, one of the things that, um, one of the most expensive mistakes that I made actually when I started out using this was, uh, to dive in kind of headfirst with a bit of a, like, "Let's have a chat," and, "Cool, let's do that," and, "Let's build," I don't know, "Let's build a React app," uh, 'cause I'd used React quite, quite a bit, and obviously it's very popular and well-supported, et cetera. And I didn't actually run through some of the planning sort of process with any kind of real methodical rigor, and that really came back to bite me. And actually, you'll see, like, I, I may, may get a chance to show you, but I've, I've had sort of two or three false starts with that specific project, where I actually ended up having to just start again. Um, and so what I've done now is actually built out a, a very detailed set of prompts which basically helps you, you know... And this is the kind of thing that I'd love to sort of share with, uh, with you and your users and, a- and, uh, your audience. But, um, it's really just, um, something that I think can, can help people to structure their project in much the same way. And this is what, when I think about, like, the value that this c- can provide, I'm thinking largely about not just sort of individuals trying to use this, but sometimes really non-technical, um, sort of business founders who may not have any history of product management expertise. A lot of the things that you can do with these, and this is where they really come into their own, is to actually, um, prompt it with, you know, "Help me, uh, help to act as a CTO and advise me on the ideal tech stack." You know, that's one example. Or, "Help me to establish a, a sound kind of product vision and strategy." And, um, you know, and then I've got a few different frameworks, some common ones, jobs to be done, user story mapping. You don't need to do all of these either. So, you know, you, again, you, you know, you can probably get lost doing documentation forever, which is definitely not the goal. Um, and Amazon PR FAQs, uh, you know, working backwards type thing. But the, the real kind of thing to me is actually that starting with context, like really clear context, and over-investing in the planning process of actually setting this up pays for itself, you know, many, many times over. So I'll get back to, to Windsurf. Um, what I'll do, I'll just bin that. Now, the thing that I've created today was actually, and, and this goes back to my kind of... One of my initial sort of origin stories with using these products was actually, um, w- two, two of my sons, so I've got twin boys, um, play football on the weekends. And after one of the football games, one of the coaches put together a match report and, um, did so just, you know, manually. Wrote a, wrote up a lovely match report, highlighted each of the players' contributions. Someone scored a hat-trick, you know, various other things, and shared that with everyone. And, uh, all the parents loved it, and someone said, "Hey, you should start a podcast. You know, have you got a thought of a career in journalism?" And I thought, "Well," you know, I was just kicking the tires with Lovable and a few other things, and I thought, "Well, actually, that could be quite a lot of fun." Like, why don't I, you know, uh, why don't I think about a, a little AI, um, sort of match reporter, which could be a thing that, you know, um, people might use? And, um, I can show you the, the sort of first, um, sort of version of that, um, which was, uh, this guy. But basically, what, um, what I then ended up building was a very simple, uh, match report generator. So this was just a, a simple waiting li- waiting list, um, idea, and then, um, basically you could run through, record your event, submit your details, generate a match report, um, both in terms of a, a written match report and then an au- an audio one. And this was really my first kind of experience of, of building these things and using them to basically, you know, do whatever you want. Um, and, um, like I said, I ended up not really doing very much planning, um, and, uh, and that really came back to bite me. But, um, now what I do... So as you can see over on the left-hand side, as I mentioned, you've got a, a series of, of projects and, and folders. And I created this, um, new sort of fresh version of this AI sports reporter, um, sort of project for us to use today.And one of the things that, um, as, as I've just mentioned that I, that I, I always do now is to produce a series of, uh, different documents. Um, you know, really what you call these things I, I don't think really matters. But, um, the common one is obviously that you have some kind of README file, um, which, uh, is, is really just a... A- and as you, as you can see, as you open that, it, it opens up in the middle. Um, let me just bring up Cascade on the right. So you can see that this is the typical kind of view that you have. So you've got code in the middle, um, you've got your chat on the right-hand side, and you can choose, you know, which model you're chatting to, and then you've got your file system on the left-hand side. And that really is all there is to it. Now, when you're chatting to, um, the LLM on the right-hand side, um, to, to the model, you're basically, um, going to be asking it to then make edits, code edits to these files over on the left-hand side. And as it starts doing so, it'll open the, the relevant file. But, um, like I said, starting out, so I, I now will start with a series of sort of simple prompts. And like I said, I, I literally just did this yesterday. But, um, putting together a, um, a strategy document, you know, what are we trying to achieve? Who's this for? So AI sport reporter transforms everyday sporting moments into professional, shareable stories. Um, core product principles, value proposition, target market, all of these things. Now, when I think back to doing a lot of these things as a product manager, you know, these things often, you know, frequently take many weeks to draft and review and decide and all of those things. And this is certainly not replacing the process of, um, you know, it's not saying to everyone, "Hey, you should just go off and vibe code on your computer on your own in isolation and come up with a product vision." But what it is doing is enabling people to go from, you know, zero to 90% or 80% very quickly. And I think that to me is what's so exciting about these tools is how they are collapsing the feedback cycle, not just in, um, the sense of actually building new products but also in all of the stuff around these products. So in addition to creating a product strategy and an, and an, uh, project overview, um, I also then work through like what the architecture might look like. And to the point earlier about wanting a full stack, uh, web app and mobile apps, that was one of the things I didn't really think through sort of very carefully first time up. And I started building in React and then realized I'm either gonna need to go with React Native if I wanna have an iOS app or an Android app, whatever. And actually, one of the technologies that, uh, is also kind of i- in that, um, single code base, multiple app sort of space is Flutter. I've never used it before. Um, but um, you know, this is one of those, those opportunities. So actually what I've decided to do now is actually to use Flutter to develop, uh, this next incarnation, which, you know, i- is, is something that I'm, I'm planning to get live in the next week or so. Um, and shall I stop there? I- is there anything... Do you want me to just keep going?

23. AGAakash Gupta21:21

    How did you develop these? Did you use AI to develop these? How much time did these take?

24. ACAndy Carroll21:26

    So, um, certainly sort of heavy use of AI and then tweaking things along the way, um, given what I know and what I've done before. Um, there are obviously massive benefits of kind of knowing, um, how to, you know, what, how these, um, models and frameworks, you know, can be useful, um, which many who start out using these tools don't. And I think there's very well-documented, um, examples of people diving in and then just building something with AI and putting it live and then having massive security problems and various other things later. So, um, a process here of, um, y- basically sort of drafting some things and then chatting to AI and then building a repository of these things which is sort of developing over time. So as I come across new things or I go, "Should I really need to, uh, formalize that?" Um, I basically just sort of add to that over time. But as you can see, you know, the, it's certainly not mandatory for everyone starting out to have, you know, seven or eight different files over here. You could very easily have one or two. But what is key is that you start with something that really kind of clarifies what you're trying to do. And then another really big development, um, sort of recent one actually, um, for me has been to map out in a lot of detail, um, a product roadmap which then becomes a living document. Um, and again, you know, these are things that like frequently take product teams, you know, many weeks to put together, and this is something that I put together, you know, in just a couple of hours. But what you can also see is that I've been updating it as I've been going, and all the green check marks are things that I've done in, you know, just a few hours, right? And, um, and now I can see, okay, well, you know, where am I going, right? So in terms of what I've actually achieved, um, I've now set up a full, um, Flutter, uh, sort of project, uh, and structure. Uh, I didn't actually realize, and this is another big learning curve, I didn't realize how, um, how heavy I suppose the Flutter kind of development framework actually is. It installs a huge number of things. Um, here you can see all of these Flutter build files. Um, and I actually ran into quite a few sort of challenges with deployment. So that's actually another key lesson to, um, to really emphasize is that with v0 and Lovable, um, and a couple of others, I think Replit, um, for instance, the process of putting something together and then just one hit deploy is seamless and really easy. Um, you know, it, it, it, it's, uh, I don't know i- if it can go wrong, but certainly it's never gone wrong for me. Whereas one of the biggest kind of, um, sort of head-in-hands learning moments with, with this, with this tool was certainly that, um, not getting something live, not deploying something, not sort of committing code to GitHub regularly and then integrating with a hosting and deployment, you know, um, platform likeUh, Netlify is the one that I use, but there's also Vercel, which is a very popular one. Um, I've not used it personally. But what I would say is that getting a simple, um, I suppose, dev tool ecosystem together that you're comfortable with is a crucial sort of early step. Because what you wanna do is to get, uh, the, um, the simplest version of the system live and deployed, and then to iterate in complexity constantly s- sort of, um, increasing, you know, what's in there, but making sure that there are those checkpoints. And the mistake that I made early on was that I was making loads of development changes and seeing how things were developing locally, and then as soon as it came to deploy, I had, you know, just hundreds of errors. I spent days trying to get the thing live [chuckles] and, um-

25. SPSpeaker25:20

    Wow

26. ACAndy Carroll25:20

    ... all sorts of refactoring. So, you know, again, this is also why I'm so passionate about this is because, um, I'm now teaching other people how to use these tools, and I see people running into some of these problems early on, but I can spot them very early and I can help them avoid a lot of the pain that I experienced. Um, but yeah, so, so the other great thing about this, and this is where I, where I think a little bit about how these tools are so profoundly impactful for, um, sort of product teams, is also that, um, if you use something like this and you... You know, GitHub and, um, deployment pipelines and various other things were typically the domain of sort of the, the software engineers. Like, I knew where they were, but I didn't spend a lot of time actually looking at them. I was more in Notion or Jira or wherever else, um, you know, uh, looking at, you know, how we were documenting things and visualizing what was going on in the roadmap and working through, you know, Figma designs and, a-a-and, and those kinds of things. Um, whereas what I've now been doing is, is putting everything into these file systems. So I've got this one, one system kind of cockpit, I suppose, for driving all of the things that are open. So as you can see on the left, I've got this AI sports reporter. I've now got all of my documents relating to, to this, including my prompt library. So I go in here and I say, "Okay, cool," you know, this thing's enormous. Um, but, you know, here, here's a set of different prompts that I might wanna use. What's my architecture? Okay, great. Um, product strategy, product overview, roadmap. Now, when you cross over to, um, to GitHub, um, I'll show you over here. You can see on the left-hand side that I've got exactly the same, obviously, you know, the whole repo, the wh- the whole thing's just been committed to the GitHub repo. But when you look at the roadmap, what's amazing now is that I've got my roadmap perfectly, you know, laid out in a ser- in a series of phases. Now, I could turn this into a PowerPoint slide deck or whatever the case might be, but the fact is that anyone working on this project and anyone in the team now could be given access to this, this code base, this repo. Anyone can look at this and make sense of what's going on, right? I know what you're doing. I know what the strategy is. I can challenge it if I want, but, you know... And here I can see, so here's what we're planning to do. You can see what's been ticked off, and you can see what's in progress over here with the little progress sign. So these are the kinds of things that, again, like teams spend... I've been guilty of it. Like, I know I've been, spent, you know, hours and weeks [chuckles] producing this kind of thing. And, um, and then what I've also done is actually created a, a little prompt, of course I have, um, which is, uh, to create a comprehensive project status report based on what you've achieved in the roadmap so far. And because you can run that in the context, so, so the whole kind of, you know, the whole system has all of the context for this project. You can say, "Review the roadmap, review the recent chat that we've been having, review all the files, and then provide a detailed, um, report for our exec team." And what I've actually done, and, and it's something we, we, we don't need to demo, um, here, but one of the things that I, I do now is that you can then take that detailed report, you know, here's an example output format, and then you can plug it into something like Gamma and, um, which is the, you know, the slide deck creation tool.

27. SPSpeaker28:45

    Yeah.

28. ACAndy Carroll28:45

    And in moments, you know, instead of spending weeks on PowerPoint decks and whatever else, literally in 30 seconds, max a minute, you've got a beautiful detailed project summary for anyone's consumption, you know, to be able to share with anyone. Um, and so let me quickly show you, 'cause I'm sort of talking a lot about the tool itself, but let me show you the results. So this, and, you know, we, we can, uh, certainly, we, we can change this, uh, live, um, as we'd like to, but this is the, the thing that we've come up, that, that, that I've created, you know, a simple landing page. So step one with this project was, okay, well, we wanna build this whole multi-application kind of sport, AI sport reporter tool, but that might take us, you know, at least a few days, probably a few weeks. If I think about kind of what many companies do with really big teams, you know, most would look at that and go, "Okay, that's gonna be a few months," right? I sort of, I reckon that this is the kind of thing that might take two weeks, but the first step for me is just, okay, well, can we just validate whether there's actually something there? So step one is just let's build a landing page. And the prompt that I used to create this was really just, I wanna build a coming soon landing page. I want it to look sort of modern and slick and whatever else. Give it some kind of interesting background with, uh, some kind of, you know, CSS, uh, kind of treatment. So it's gone a little bit wild with the colors.

29. SPSpeaker30:06

    Yeah.

30. ACAndy Carroll30:06

    Um, but, but as you can see, so this coming soon, the red doesn't look great on, um, on, uh, on the background over there. So if I just... And, and this is the beauty of this, right? So I'll just say, okay, cool. Let me take a screenshot of that. Now, um, let me go back to Cascade. Um, where are you? Okay. Um, sorry, I don't want that

Episode duration: 1:12:14