Never Search Alone - Phyl Wrote the Book

1. AGAakash Gupta0:00

   Why should you never search for a job alone?

2. PTPhyl Terry0:02

   Job searching sucks. It really sucks, especially right now in this tough economy. And we're gonna give you the tools to find the best job you can find today and set yourself up to succeed, and a bunch of tactics. I really wish people would do this. Do not send me cold introductions. If you send me a cold introduction, it is a person I do not want to speak to. We all hate networking, right? I, I do too, by the way. I want you to negotiate the things that will set you up to succeed, to deliver on the OKRs that you have discussed already. Okay? One SaaS company had about $10 million in technical debt and the other had $20 million.

3. AGAakash Gupta0:40

   Because there was such a greater demand for PMs in New York City-

4. PTPhyl Terry0:44

   Yes, product management isn't for everyone. It's a great... I love it, but it's not for everyone. And by the way, if anyone listening is a recruiter, we need more recruiters.

5. AGAakash Gupta0:54

   The number one book that they bring up that has helped them is Never Search Alone. So we have Phyl Terry. Phyl Terry has helped over 30,000 job seekers get jobs. If you've ever been interested in how to handle the emotional and tactical aspects of a job search, if you wanna learn more about Phyl's bestselling book, Never Search Alone, if you wanna learn more about candidate market fit or even negotiation and how to negotiate so that you succeed in a role, this episode is for you. Really quickly, I think a crazy stat is that more than 50% of you listening are not subscribed. If you can subscribe on YouTube, follow on Apple or Spotify podcasts, my commitment to you is that we'll continue to make this content better and better. And now on to today's episode. I talk to job seekers every day, and the number one book that they bring up that has helped them is Never Search Alone. So we have Phyl Terry here today. It's an honor. Thank you so much.

6. PTPhyl Terry2:01

   Glad to be here. Thank you for inviting me.

7. AGAakash Gupta2:05

   So I really wanna start with the title itself, Never Search Alone.

8. PTPhyl Terry2:09

   Yeah.

9. AGAakash Gupta2:10

   Why should you never search for a job alone?

10. PTPhyl Terry2:13

    Yeah. So let me answer that by saying, and I'll, I'll come right back to it. There's three big ideas in the book, right? The first is the title, Never Search Alone. I'll answer your question. The second is candidate market fit, which of course resonates really strongly in the product community where both of us come from. And then third is what I call, uh, w- playing to win-win, how you negotiate, how you interview. Um, in terms of the title, why should you never search alone? Here's the surprising thing, Aakash, and many people don't believe me when I'm, when I say what I'm about to say, and then they get into a job search council, which is what I propose, and we'll talk about that in a moment, and they experience it, and it kind of blows them away. No matter how smart you are, Aakash, no matter how fantastic your resume might be, maybe you were the VP of Product at Google, right? Maybe you were the chief product officer who built, you know, so, uh, uh, some great AI application or are doing that today. No matter who you... Maybe you are CEO of a publicly traded company. No matter how smart and experienced you are, when you are in the job search, you feel anxious, nervous, and insecure, and everyone feels this way [laughs] . And, and people don't believe me. They think, "Oh, it's only me who feels this way," you know? "If I were X, I wouldn't feel this way." Well, as you know, Aakash, I started running product councils in, in '03, so quick background. You know, was involved in the early internet, was a part of the first company that Amazon bought, then built a company called Creative Good. We were leaders in customer experience and product management. We were so early that Marty Cagan was one of our clients, by the way. [laughs] This is how I know Marty, going back 25 years, whatever. And when I started the councils, you know, I brought, you know, Google and Amazon and all these folks together. Now I've had 2,500 senior leaders go through this program from every company in Silicon Valley. And every single one of them, okay, when they get into that next phase of either leaving the job, they've left the job, or they're thinking about leaving, they feel that insecurity and anxiety that everyone feels. It is the sort of the great leveler, and the only thing that I have found that addresses that is if you put people together in a support group, what I call a job search council, and you ask them to be open and vulnerable with each other, right? So that they actually share, "Oh, I'm feeling anxious." [laughs] And when you're sitting around the room, you know... So you know, one, one of, um... We did a, we do these LinkedIn Lives every couple weeks with job seekers, and one of the ones we did last year was prominent guy at Google who left and, uh, ended up taking a job, uh, at Capital One. Great guy. Uh, and he, you know, when he got into that job search council, it was the same for him, everybody else. You open, you're like, "Oh, I'm feeling insecure." Like, you hear that around the room and you're like, "Oh my God, okay. I'm not alone." And it actually flips the experience emotionally from insecurity and anxiety and fear to hope and motivation, accountability and confidence. These are the four things you really need in a good job search. And on the other hand, if you're feeling that anxiety that everyone feels, it can really undermine your search. It can undermine how you show up in interviews. It can undermine what you think you're qualified for. It can, you know, it can take you in all kinds of directions that don't actually help you get to that next stage.So, you know, it's, it's kind of crazy. I feel bad that it took me so long to sort of figure this out. [laughs] Like, this is clearly what we should've been doing in the job search for a very long time. I'm glad we're doing it now.

11. AGAakash Gupta6:15

    Yeah. I actually used the book hooks you up with a matching service, which you can apply for and get a job search counsel. So I used one of those actually-

12. PTPhyl Terry6:25

    Wow

13. AGAakash Gupta6:25

    ... in measles in a successful job search. So-

14. PTPhyl Terry6:28

    Wow.

15. AGAakash Gupta6:29

    Yeah. Well-

16. PTPhyl Terry6:29

    Well, there you are. You're a walkie-talkie testimonial. So what was that experience like?

17. AGAakash Gupta6:34

    Yeah. So one of the coolest things is, like, the people who I was matched up with, they weren't exactly going for VP of Product at a unicorn, but they had very similar life circumstances.

18. PTPhyl Terry6:45

    Yeah.

19. AGAakash Gupta6:45

    One was a really senior technical program manager caught up in the layoffs at Meta.

20. PTPhyl Terry6:50

    Oh.

21. AGAakash Gupta6:50

    Another one had been a sales engineer at a whole bunch of really high-profile companies-

22. PTPhyl Terry6:56

    Yeah

23. AGAakash Gupta6:56

    ... now is working at Databricks, you know, one of the hottest-

24. PTPhyl Terry6:59

    Yeah

25. AGAakash Gupta6:59

    ... companies out there. Like, all of us ended up landing really awesome jobs.

26. PTPhyl Terry7:05

    Wow.

27. AGAakash Gupta7:05

    And the cool thing was meeting weekly, tracking progress, seeing techniques that were working for one person that-

28. PTPhyl Terry7:12

    Yes

29. AGAakash Gupta7:13

    ... potentially applying to me.

30. PTPhyl Terry7:14

    Right.

Episode duration: 1:32:00