No.1 Masking Expert: Unmasking is easy when you learn THIS

1. 0:00 – 1:45

   Trailer

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Children actually start masking from very early age. When children start school at the age of four, they're expected to do good sitting and good listening. ADHD children can't do that definition of good sitting or good listening, or they can do one thing or another. They actually have to force themselves into that to be praised and reinforced and accepted. Dana Zamic is a world-leading ADHD consultant

   2. APAlex Partridge0:20

      specializing in female masking and loneliness.

   3. SPSpeaker0:23

      She has helped thousands of ADHD women

   4. APAlex Partridge0:25

      understand their diagnosis and themselves.

   5. SPSpeaker0:28

      If people are undiagnosed or they actually didn't have a support dealing with masking, then masking can be obviously incredibly tiring. It can be almost like incorporating a mystery identity. There is no understanding of what is going on.

   6. APAlex Partridge0:43

      Do you think there's societal expectations on women generally that makes them better at masking?

   7. SPSpeaker0:50

      That's a good question. Um, well...

   8. APAlex Partridge0:53

      Can I have just a second of your time? If this podcast has helped you understand your brain or made you feel less alone, can you do me one favor? Can you hit the subscribe button? And I'll repay the favor by continuing to book the best and most exclusive conversations on this topic. Please enjoy the episode, and always remember, you're not broken, just different, and you have always been enough. [upbeat music] Dana, welcome back.

   9. SPSpeaker1:19

      Thank you, Alex. It's really lovely to be here.

   10. APAlex Partridge1:21

       It's such a-

   11. SPSpeaker1:21

       Exciting

   12. APAlex Partridge1:22

       ... privilege and honor to have you back in the ADHD Chatter studio to talk about a topic that I think many of the listeners and viewers will relate to, and that's masking and what it looks like, the risks of masking perhaps too much, and also steps people can take to actually unmask and connect to their true self. But

2. 1:45 – 5:11

   What is masking

   1. APAlex Partridge1:45

      I first, what do you think is masking at its very basic level?

   2. SPSpeaker1:52

      Mm-hmm. Um, well, thank you for this question because I think masking does require more conversations. Um, and what I realized last, last time is that mask, people get almost afraid of real- realization that they actually did mask so much. So, um, let's start from, uh, thinking that masking is, uh, a way of trying to be included. Also, I think masking can be a way of not feeling lonely because, uh, people often say something like, "I would rather mask to be included with a fake myself than be excluded with the real myself." Uh, so that's, that's a very vague description. However, masking can have all sorts of, uh, um, forms, and I think, um, we have to think about masking in so many ways. So masking can be a struggle, and it is in so many ways. However, masking can be a skill. So, um, if masking can be, for example, uh, people find very comfortable being part of some conversation and because they feel uncomfortable and they fear rejection, they fear criticism, they talk too much. Or it can be they t- talk very little. Um, it can also be, it can a- it can also look like taking different roles, so it's almo- mirroring. So I've seen people skilled so much that depending on who they talk to, they can actually, uh, use different accents, they can use a different way of talking or even, uh, different gestures. And many people, uh, mask that skill so much that actually they s- they don't even notice how much they switch, which is amazing to watch sometimes. Um, so, um, if people are undiagnosed or they actually didn't have a support dealing with masking, then masking can be obviously incredibly tiring, exhausting, and, uh, it can be almost like incorporating a m- mystery identity, a fake identity, and they, there is no understanding of what is going on. However, when people actually do get support, uh, and they start understanding what is going on, masking can be really seen as [laughs] an amazing skill, and it can be very strategic. So it can look like, "Okay, I have this job. I'm doing fairly well, but so far it was exhausting because I was masking unconsciously. I was trying things that I shouldn't be trying, and maybe I can actually reshuffle all that. I can, I can actually reframe all that." And then I can actually say, "Okay, I'm going to look like a person, uh, in a certain clothes, or I can, I'm going to look very confident." And that can be like acting skill that has a purpose. It can have a purpose of doing a job well or appearing, um, well in meetings or something like that. So I think we need to look at, uh, the details, how masking can look like, and we can also look at reframing and what kind of support people can get and how we can use those skills.

   3. APAlex Partridge4:53

      That's fascinating, Dana, and the support I, I, I hope will be within this episode. W- I've always said, and the regular viewers and listeners will be, w- will have heard me say this before, that people with ADHD are expert maskers. We're phenomenal at playing this character called normal.

   4. SPSpeaker5:10

      Mm-hmm.

3. 5:11 – 7:24

   Why ADHD people are expert maskers

   1. APAlex Partridge5:11

      So I suppose my question is, why do you think people with ADHD are so good at masking?

   2. SPSpeaker5:19

      That's a good question. [laughs] Um, well, one, I think there is a very high level of motivation to, which is a human need to actually fit in. Uh, so I think because motivation is so high, we are trying so hard. It can also be how is that related to ADHD skills, and that is seeing the patterns, seeing the patterns in behavior, uh, seeing the small hints from the feedback from the others. Uh, so I think, um, increased, um, perception for details can actually give us the skills to actually mask so well. Um, and also, I think there is a lifelong learning. Uh, so, uh, children actually start masking from very early age. I mean, when you think about schools, when children start school at the age of four, uh, or five, um, they're expected to do, uh, good sitting and good listening. I'm not blaming schools. Teachers work really hard, and they need the children to actually be attentive and be ready to learn. But ADHD children can't do that definition of good sitting or good listening, or they can do one thing or another. So maybe they can do good sit- uh, good listening if they're not doing good sitting. Uh, so they actually have to s- force themselves into that to be, you know, praised and reinforced and accepted. So they have to start masking from very, very early on.Uh, and it starts from, from very simple things, like, okay, I have to force myself into good sitting. I have to pretend I'm listening. I have to pretend I'm part of this game. Uh, for a very long time, they're not aware what they're doing. They feel uncomfortable. They're trying hard. They copy the others. Um, so I think it starts from playing different roles, copying other children, and then it just, they master that skills, uh, because it's a lifetime, um, skill, and later they get diagnosed. I think masking becomes deeper, and it becomes part of their personality, and that's why unmasking becomes really difficult because they don't know where to start, and it's a risk.

   3. APAlex Partridge7:16

      The early masking piece, I think, is so heartbreaking because it- that's the source of where that journey starts.

4. 7:24 – 11:43

   What ADHD kids hide their true self

   1. SPSpeaker7:24

      Mm-hmm.

   2. APAlex Partridge7:24

      What do you think ADHD kids feel like they need to hide?

   3. SPSpeaker7:29

      Oh, um, there is a lot, actually. There is a lost, a, a long list of things. So, for example, they maybe can't process the conversations or noise, and they have to pre- pretend they can, so they have to pretend they understand something they don't. Um, they may pretend they enjoy, uh, social situations, and it becomes overwhelming. It becomes too much for them, and they still keep pretending, and it makes them really tired. Um, they have to force themself into sitting still in school, and school is a long day. That's six hours, really, uh, slightly less [laughs] of sitting in a class. They have to pretend they are listening to teachers, and they understand what they are saying, and they don't, and they have to compensate some- sometimes. So there is a long list. That's how it starts in early age. Um, and then in teenagers, there is a lot. So I have a teenage girl, so I think, uh, there is a lot of masking to fit in, so a lot of teenage girls do it with, uh, makeup. Uh, makeup beco- becomes that mask of fitting in. "I have to look in certain way. I have to look confident. I have to look like the others," or, "I have to look perfect," um, or, "I have to look trendy." So that pretty much applies to all teenagers, but it's just, it takes a lot more effort, and there is a lot more to hide with that masks, so it's not that natural. The, the more they mask, more they have to hide, so it depends what is the proportion. I mean, we can't really put the numbers, uh, but I do have to look at how much you actually hide and how much you actually mask.

   4. APAlex Partridge9:01

      Yeah. [laughs]

   5. SPSpeaker9:01

      So sometimes it's very little masking-

   6. APAlex Partridge9:04

      Mm

   7. SPSpeaker9:04

      ... you know, a lot of masking and a lot of hiding, and sometimes it's a little, so that depends. That's where su- support comes in, and it depends on what do we have to support.

   8. APAlex Partridge9:13

      When you said nodding along and pretending like you understand, that's so relatable. I, I, I really intentionally now, like, only try and nod when I truly understand what the person's saying. I think eye contact as well for me was such a mask, and, and I really am less shameful now about, like, not making direct eye contact because it is such an effort for me to maintain eye contact, and if I'm staring at the person I'm talking to in the eye, unless I'm really, really passionate and interested in what they're saying, what they're saying is not going in. S- and then it's my turn to speak, and I haven't got anything to reply with because I've been putting so much of my energy into maintaining the eye contact that there's nothing c- there's no capacity left in my head to actually absorb what's being said-

   9. SPSpeaker9:56

      Yes

   10. APAlex Partridge9:56

       ... let alone try and construct any form of reply that makes any sense. And in the past, I've just said stuff because, oh, it's my turn to speak, and then I come across as stupid, and I walk away from that social interaction feeling, oh, my gosh, they must think I'm an absolute idiot because what I said didn't make any sense in relation to what they were talking about.

   11. SPSpeaker10:16

       Yeah. There, there, there are, there are also complexities in what you described. So, uh, if you pretend to be a good listener and you look people in the eye and you actually nod, and I've heard people saying, "Oh, people are telling me you are such a good listening, listener." Uh, so that person is praised for pretending, and that person is going to pretend even more because it's a compliment. If somebody's telling you, "You are such a good listen- listener," you're trying to do that even more, but that's more pressure. So it means you have to do more masking. You have to try even harder. And what I find people do, they pretend they are listening, and to be part of the conversation, all they are thinking about is what they're going to say. So they can't listen because they're also going through the script to say something appropriate. But also, at the same time, they have to pretend they are listening. So that's a lot of work. So, uh, what I think we need to reframe and talk about more is, uh, we talk about it as a struggle, and again, I'm saying it is a struggle. It's something we struggle with, and it's causing problems, and it's making us feel uncomfortable, but it's also a skill, and I don't think we are looking enough at how much we are actually doing. So we are talking about what we are not doing. We are pretending we are listening, but we are not listening. But we [laughs] also that pretending is a lot of work, and I think support services need to look at how we can actually turn that into something useful.

5. 11:43 – 16:08

   The positive side of masking

   1. APAlex Partridge11:43

      So what would be the use, the positives of masking? If, if it's a skill that we can potentially be proud of, what would be a positive use case for masking?

   2. SPSpeaker11:55

      Okay, so we can actually use, um, the same skills that... We can do the same thing we are doing, but we can feel better about it, and we can be more open about it. So I think the first thing we need to work on is how we can actually get rid of the guilt and self-blame. So if you mask well, and, uh, you achieve something, so you still have a good conversation, you're still doing your job well, um, you still a good w- do a good work, you're still a pleasant person, uh, and you're open about it that, uh, for example, I'm not... You, you don't have to pretend listening. You can actually say, "Sorry, can you please repeat that?" Or in the workplace, "Can I have that in writing," or, "Can I please record this conversation?" Or, "I'm so sorry, I just, um-I just lost, lost conversation. I can't follow. You know, can, can we just talk about it again? Then, uh, we actually remove that guilt and self-blame, uh, but we can still use that skill for something else. Uh, so we, we need to look at that individually. We need to look at exactly what people do, uh, what they're using it for, how do they feel about it, and what we can do about it.

   3. APAlex Partridge13:05

      People with ADHD, Dana, do they need an awareness of masking to recognize that they're doing it, and therefore use it in a positive way?

   4. SPSpeaker13:17

      I think that's the key. I think that's exactly what they, what they need, and I think that's becomes a problem after a long life of undiagnosed, or ADHD. It doesn't have to be diagnosed necessarily, but if people have the awareness, "Yes, I have ADHD. Yes, I've been masking. Yes, this is, this is the effort I was making, uh, for that, and that reason, and it wasn't necessary. It made me feel so bad." And that awareness is going to remove that guilt and self-blame. So I think instead of, I think we've heard this so many times in your episode, "I am useless, I'm lazy, um, I'm a bad listener, [laughs] I- I'm a fake person, uh, I'm such a bad, you know, person," and all that, that people actually tell themselves, and sometimes hear, hear from the others. Uh, I think self-awareness and awareness about it is actually doing a lot, uh, to work on that.

   5. APAlex Partridge14:13

      If someone with ADHD is watching or listening and they're thinking, "Okay, I, I understand what masking is, and I want to potentially use it in a positive way," how can they know the difference between a presentation that they put out into the world that is authentic and completely unmasked, versus a presentation that is masked to an extent that it's almost an abandonment of their true self? How can you differentiate between those two-

   6. SPSpeaker14:40

      Mm-hmm

   7. APAlex Partridge14:40

      ... presentations?

   8. SPSpeaker14:41

      I would say that, um, if we mask, uh, without the awareness, and, uh, I think it's going to be, uh, present with anxiety, with, uh, potentially panic, potentially panic attacks, uh, with, um, the feeling of never being good enough, always trying harder, and never knowing, you know, when it's enough. So I think there is a feeling of discomfort, uh, that can have all sorts of forms. Um, and I think in that case, we have to look at it, "Okay, I'm doing something that is making me extremely uncomfortable. I'm extremely sensitive. What will people say? Uh, I'm never confident about it." Uh, but then if you actually mask, and we, we feel good about it, we know exactly what we are doing and why we are doing it, and it has a purpose, it has a meaning. Uh, so we do that to do the job well. We do that so it doesn't have to be just in the workplace. It can be in private life. I do want to help my friend, and my friend has a problem, and I want to d- listen well, and I'm not just pretending. I'm trying really hard to listen. Um, so, uh, I think it's all about how we feel, whether we feel comfortable about it or very uncomfortable.

   9. APAlex Partridge15:53

      So it's, it's how you feel internally after you walk away from a situation that perhaps masking was happening-

   10. SPSpeaker16:01

       Mm-hmm

   11. APAlex Partridge16:01

       ... is the determinating factor of whether it was a, a positive masking experience or a negative masking experience.

6. 16:08 – 18:42

   Women’s societal expectations

   1. SPSpeaker16:09

      Yes.

   2. APAlex Partridge16:09

      With women, do you think there's societal expectations on women generally that makes them better at masking?

   3. SPSpeaker16:20

      Oh, I think that's a huge topic, and thank you for asking that. So I think, I think there is a pressure for women than men. But, um, when you talk about women, I think there is, there are more expectations of what is a women persona that is going to be respected. Uh, so I think society values a calm, uh, consistent women, disciplined women, um, good mothers if they are mothers, and, uh, motherhood is another very complex topic because that's how ADHD can clash with a lot of sensitivities and, uh, guilt. Um, so I think, uh, we do need to look at this reframing. So for example, um, let's say, uh, being disciplined, um, I've heard from many, uh, people I talk to, many women, uh, they, they actually have a messy house, and they feel really bad about it. So they, it's not that just they feel bad about it. They feel guilty when they actually invite other mothers, uh, because they will feel judged. So we need to look at messy house can actually be the problem, and it's a problem if people can't find things, if it actually takes more time to, uh, get ready in the morning. But sometimes it's not that. Sometimes they know exactly where they put their key and where they put important items, but that mess doesn't cause any problems for them. It's just causing problems because they are judged. And I think a lot of the masking is coming from the fear of being judged, not from the need to do better in many aspects of life, and that's where we have to differentiate. If we actually locate what, what is the masking that is the result of fear of being judged, and if we actually remove that judgment and that fear, then we can actually reduce that unnecessary masking, and we can more, uh, uh, work more on useful masking, meaningful masking.

   4. APAlex Partridge18:12

      How do you go about reducing the shame that it sounds like is the motivator for masking? You, you feel so shameful about your authentic presentation. You feel so shameful about how perhaps dirty your flat is, or how you came across in that particular conversation, that you feel the need to put on this alternate version of yourself that is more able to fit in-

   5. SPSpeaker18:39

      Mm-hmm

   6. APAlex Partridge18:39

      ... and, and, and, and potentially a version that feels less misunderstood.

7. 18:42 – 20:23

   How to stop shaming your true self

   1. APAlex Partridge18:43

      How do we go about, like, combating potentially the root cause of masking, which is the shame about how you actually feel-Internally about your core self?

   2. SPSpeaker18:51

      Mm-hmm. Well, I think you said something that is actually the core of that answer, and it's about the feeling of being misunderstood. So I think that's a big, um, reason why people mask. They want to try and feel to be understood, and they actually can share that. So I think we have to look at where is the shame causing... Where is the sh- where is shame the most present? So, uh, is it in friendships, for example? And, um, I really believe, and this is not easy, what I'm saying, it's easier said than done really, but if friendship is based on, um, on truth, uh, then, uh, the friendship is not going to be lost if we actually start communicating, uh, what we feel better in a better way and if we are more open about it. So if we are serving, if we are being the service in the friendship, so we are being en- uh, the entertainment, or we are being, uh, um, loud one, or we are being the one who is actually pleasing all the time, and that service is being removed when we actually stop masking, it-- there is a risk that friendship will be lost. Uh, but then if the friendship is based on truth, if it's a real friendship, and we actually start communicating and sharing, uh, what we feel and what we are, a- in a different way, then that's when I think actually we can start removing that shame. Because shame is actually a fear, uh, really. Uh, and I think we have to look into fear of what, what exactly we are afraid of.

   3. APAlex Partridge20:21

      What do you think people are

8. 20:23 – 21:48

   The root cause of shame

   1. APAlex Partridge20:23

      afraid of? What is the root cause of shame?

   2. SPSpeaker20:26

      It's exclusion. Uh, it's, it can be exclusion, but exclusion can be, uh, excluded from, uh, friendship groups, and that starts very early on. It can be exclusion from, in extreme cases, it could, it could be exclusion from schools. It could be, um, about losing jobs, so n- not just being accepted in certain friendship groups, uh, in the workplace. Um, it could be, um, a relationship in the family or other relationships. Uh, so I think generally it's exclusion. It's also loneliness. There is a fear of being very different because people want to fit in. And I think a normal, uh, reaction is that I will fit in if I'm similar to the others. So people need to work hard on confidence of actually communicating difference.

   3. APAlex Partridge21:13

      For the many ADHD people listening who perhaps have had a late diagnosis, I feel like there's so much conversation around ADHD now and masking and, and sort of shame-busting conversations that are happening. But they're, they're only really happening in the last five years, and there's this whole generation of people that are just getting diagnosed now in their 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s and, and beyond because that conversation wasn't happening-

   4. SPSpeaker21:36

      Mm-hmm

   5. APAlex Partridge21:36

      ... when they were growing up. So there wasn't this antidote to the shame.

   6. SPSpeaker21:42

      Yeah.

   7. APAlex Partridge21:42

      And therefore, there wasn't this awareness and ability to perhaps mask less or mask in a positive

9. 21:48 – 23:12

   How masking delays an ADHD diagnosis

   1. APAlex Partridge21:48

      way. Do you think that masking so well can lead to a later diagnosis?

   2. SPSpeaker21:52

      Oh, yes, absolutely, especially for women. Um, so, um, people almost feel shame to look for the diagnosis because they appear so fine. They appear they're doing well. They have families. They have a career. They did well in school. Some of them didn't. Some people struggled. So I think it's more likely that people will search diagnosis and actually start thinking about ADHD if they struggled, if they obviously struggled, if they failed in some aspects in life. But if they appear to be doing well, um, then that can really lead to... And very often, actually, women get diagnoses when they actually have a child, um, it happened to me as well, who, with ADHD, and they start thinking about it deeper. Because, um, it's very difficult to recognize struggle if you actually, um, don't know how other people feel. So I know that I, for a long time, felt that, uh, other people felt so at ease, and I felt very uncomfortable, and that was the only awareness I had. And then when you actually start breaking it down by listening to these conversations and learning about it, then they actually see, okay, there is a lot more to that. You know, it's not just about feeling uncomfortable. There is a lot more to that. There is a lot more to tiredness, to fatigue, to different pains you feel and, uh, withdrawals in the certain types, uh, certain times

10. 23:12 – 26:07

    Tiimo advert

    1. SPSpeaker23:12

       in life.

    2. APAlex Partridge23:12

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    3. SPSpeaker24:35

       It is. I've seen that. Um, and, um, I think that needs a lot of work, actually. So some people do feel my whole life has been a lie. But actually, I think those people need support and help in actually re- uh, understanding it's not actually a lie. It's just a way of coping.So it doesn't have to be a lie. I think that's a very strong word, but, uh, that was my way of coping. And I think, um, instead of feeling this guilt and shame and self-blame, and then sometimes it's people blame parents, sometimes people blame system or blames school, but there is no-- that's not very helpful I find, um, uh, but because people have to go through that grief, why I didn't know before. But, um, I don't find that particularly helpful even though people have to go through that. But people have to look at that as a way of coping, and I think, uh, going back and understanding that bet- better can actually help them to feel even better about themselves because they've done so much despite all that, and they have to start again and continue in the same way. But then if they understand it better, they suddenly feel better. So I've seen some bad cases. Uh, so I've seen people who actually realization actually makes them feel worse, and suddenly they have to deal with all that. But actually, I've seen, especially women who actually did well, and they can say just, "Oh, this is all-- this, th- this-- I suddenly I have these answers why, and I feel so great now."

11. 26:07 – 29:18

    The risks of masking

    1. APAlex Partridge26:07

       What do you think the risks are of masking, like, the, the consequences of masking too much? Because I, I was doing a talk on ADHD at a university a couple of months ago, and I was speaking to a lady afterwards, and she was saying that she believes that she was, uh, quite hyperactive as a child, and her earliest memories of, of kind of being corrected was, in essence, by people saying like, "That's not very ladylike. You're being too dramatic."

    2. SPSpeaker26:33

       Mm.

    3. APAlex Partridge26:33

       Um, and sh- she realized that to suppress her hyperactivity and almost become a bit of a fawn and internalize herself felt safer. And she thinks, had she-- She shared with me that she had had a couple of abusive relationships since then, and she thinks that the people-pleaser within her, that she correlates to the internal suppression that happened early because of those comments, was responsible for the danger that she was put into in her relationships later on in life. Uh, do you think there is a correlation between masking and almost hiding your true self and being in risky situations later on in life?

    4. SPSpeaker27:15

       I do think, yes, because we develop certain patterns of behaviors that is very difficult to correct later. Uh, and I think behavior-- uh, we al- always develop behaviors that is learned behavior. And, uh, if that becomes a pattern, if that becomes the only behavior we, we know, then it's very difficult to learn that. Behavior can also be a comfort zone, even though behavior is not always giving us, uh, good results. Uh, so, uh, it can be. Uh, but also, uh, you did ask me what is the consequence of masking, and I think what I see from the experience, um, is two big things. One is self-esteem, and another one is burnout. So self-esteem, uh, is part of that, is what you are saying. So we actually-- we do certain behaviors, and then we feel guilty, and then we do set other behaviors. We either talk too much or we talk too little, and then we regret it, or we overreact, and then we feel bad after that. And then we are often late, and then we feel like we are re- irresponsible, or we actually get excited about too many, you know, jobs and courses, and we give up because we get bored. And then we feel like we are, uh, restless and, again, irresponsible and, um, not very mature. Uh, so that all affects self-esteem. But then, uh, burnout, uh, I think I talked about it quite a lot last time. But then people hurt so much, then they experience burnout. And if they don't know the b- burnout is a result of masking, they can't really easily get out of it, because if the burnout is the consequence of masking, people end up, uh, often, um, treating depression. And often it doesn't help because it's not the answer to that kind of burnout. So it, it, it, it does look like depression, but it's actually something else. So they have to look at what led to that burnout in order to actually go back to life that is going

12. 29:18 – 34:30

    The link between RSD and masking

    1. SPSpeaker29:18

       to look better.

    2. APAlex Partridge29:19

       Rejection Sensitive Dysphoria, RSD, can that be a motivator for masking? Can someone be so fearful of the pain, the intense emotional pain that, that RSD causes, can that be a motivator for, for hiding who they are?

    3. SPSpeaker29:35

       I think it's a big motivator, and, um, I've, I've heard people saying, um, uh, I think it's very much related to people-pleasing. So we are so afraid of rejection, uh, and criticism or any kind of feedback that we will see as a criticism, [laughs] so it doesn't have to be necessarily criticism, that we will do our best to avoid that. So I think the motivation to avoid that is a lot bigger than the motivation to actually show what we are. Uh, so I think it's a huge motivator, and it can be really, um, really, um... So imagine a workday and somebody just sent an email, and then, um, they're not getting any reply. And then, um, the-- immediately they think, "Oh, this person doesn't like what I wrote," or, uh, "This is going to be negative feedback," or, "This person decided to ignore me." And then immediately there is a person opposite who is just looking at us, and we th- "Oh, this person is actually looking at me, and I'm looking very anxious." And then, um, we are invited to the meeting, and then we have to try really hard to actually hide all that because we already have this fear that, um, has piled up [laughs] and we have to avoid even more. So I think, uh, that's a huge motivator. And again, it starts from early age. It starts from, uh, early childhood.

    4. APAlex Partridge30:49

       Mm. Gosh, can, can overworking be a mask?Because you're almost running away from the fear of being rejected. Like, if, if you've got a piece of work to do, the, the idea of your boss m- criticizing it in any way is so terrifying that you'll stay up all night to complete it-

    5. SPSpeaker31:07

       Mm-hmm

    6. APAlex Partridge31:07

       ... to a high standard, or you'll stay in the office for an extra four hours, and you will overwork to the point maybe that you even are teetering on the edge of burnout. All of this is related to RSD, but the authentic true self might be like, "I wanna sit down and just chill out and watch TV." But then this fear of criticism is saying, "No, that true self isn't allowed to be themselves right now. You need to overwork to avoid criticism."

    7. SPSpeaker31:36

       I think overworking, uh, is one way of masking, and, um, so it's, uh, the problem is that we overwork not just because we want to hide sometimes, uh, problems with productivity and problems with focus, so we h- want to compensate for that, and we work, we overwork. But also I think because workplaces do value overworking, and I think that's, uh, that's a bad thing. So I think because that's valued generally, that's one thing we maybe feel like we can do. I can stay late, so if I'm not productive enough or actually do everything last minute, I have to hide that, and I have to compensate by actually staying late or overworking. Another way of masking is perfectionism, so, uh, feeling that work is never good enough, and it always has to be improved, so that's another reason why people overwork, because they actually need to, uh, master that work and, uh, you know, until perfection. So I think, um, all that, uh, can be masking or, again, people-pleasing. So, uh, people-p- pleasing can be, um, apologizing a lot for every single small thing. Uh, so [laughs] I've seen people who actually help others, and they still apologize. [laughs] Um, or thanking somebody, saying too many thanks, um, that, that actually can be a part of masking. Or just, uh, being there all the time and being helpful all the time, that's all, uh, a result of kindness as well, but doing it too much and feeling anxious about it and constantly having this need to do more of that, uh, that's where we actually feel we are masking. We are doing what is not necessary and what is bad for us. It's burning us out.

    8. APAlex Partridge33:17

       Mm. Can doing absolutely nothing be a mask? And what I mean is your true self might wanna start a business, but then the RSD makes the idea of starting that business and exposing yourself to criticism stop you from starting the business. So you almost mask your ambition.

    9. SPSpeaker33:38

       Mm-hmm.

    10. APAlex Partridge33:38

        You don't start the business 'cause it just feels safer to do nothing?

    11. SPSpeaker33:42

        Can be, but, uh, that, that u- usually happens when we actually start looking for excuses. So if you just, if you're aware, "Okay, I'm paralyzed because I'm afraid of criticism, and I'm just afraid that this is going to fail. It's not going to succeed," uh, then we have the awareness. But if you actually, if you feel paralyzed, and we do nothing, and we start looking for excuses, and we start sharing those excuses with the others, um, and I think people do that a lot. So, um, we start looking into market situation or how we feel at the moment, or we have family issues, or we feel overwhelmed, or we just... There is, there's so many reasons why we feel we do nothing, and w- if we start looking with, if we start actually looking for these excuses and we start sharing them, that's masking. It can be. It doesn't have to be.

13. 34:30 – 37:22

    The link between masking and loneliness

    1. APAlex Partridge34:30

       If someone with ADHD is watching and they feel lonely, i- i- is there a contradiction with how masking can create loneliness? Because on the one hand, you might feel a desire to connect, so you put on this version of yourself that makes connection and makes socializing easier. But at the same time, because that version that is, uh, uh, receiving that connection and being social isn't really you, your inner self feels more lonely. Is there a contradiction there?

    2. SPSpeaker35:01

       Yes, I think that's a paradox. So people mask often not to be lonely, but more they mask, less people know who they are. I think that, that, that explains it.

    3. APAlex Partridge35:12

       Mm.

    4. SPSpeaker35:12

       So, uh, it, it can be, really, and it, it really depends. So I, I know people who actually feel less lonely, but I know people who actually feel really lonely because they, there are so many people who actually say that, "I don't have anyone, uh, I can share fully who I am."

    5. APAlex Partridge35:29

       And if you are on that journey and on to unmask, i- i- can you lose friends in that process?

    6. SPSpeaker35:35

       Well, you can, but then the question is, uh, I would really like people to think hard and to get help for that. Who are real friends? Because, um, people can lose friends because those friends lose the services we are providing. And, uh, as I mentioned before, if we are too pleasing, too accommodating, if we are too entertaining, if we are always there, and then we are providing something that those friends need, but it's not a real person, it's actually just a service we are providing, of course, we will lose that, that, those friends. However, um, unmasking can also improve friendships because with real friends, we can be more p- open, and we can share vulnerabilities, uh, we can share strengths that we didn't want to share because we thought they are not going to work well. So I think, uh, it's not easy for everyone, and not everyone feels comfortable doing that, and I understand that if self-esteem is affected, losing any friends, uh, can be difficult even though p- people feel they're not real friends, but they, "I still don't want to lose them. I still need people in my life." Um, but I do think that that needs time and work to really look at, um, those friendships, and it can be, it sounds cruel, but it can be a really nice screening process with friends we have.But again, we have people who have only a few friends because ADHD was causing so many f- issues in the relationships that it's not easy to lose a few friends. But then there are people who have a few really close friends, but then loads of friendship groups. Um, and then they can actually start small. They can actually start opening up with one friend

14. 37:22 – 38:12

    Patreon advert

    1. APAlex Partridge37:22

       So sorry to interrupt your hyperfocus for 30 seconds, but you're gonna wanna hear this. I've been working on an epic side quest. I've just launched the ADHD Chatter Patreon, which is where I'll be connecting with my community on a much, much deeper level. I'll be doing live body doubling sessions, behind-the-scenes bonus questions with all of my world-renowned podcast guests. I'll be sharing the best, most transformative ADHD hacks over there, as well as hosting a private chat between myself and all of you guys. And that's really exciting because it means we all get to hear each other's coping strategies, as well as feeling much less alone. The ADHD Chatter Patreon community really is the place to be if you want to transform your ADHD from a place of understanding into one of truly thriving. You can join right now using the link in the description. Back to the episode.

15. 38:12 – 41:48

    The link between masking and alcohol

    1. APAlex Partridge38:13

       I think one of my biggest realizations after my diagnosis and that sort of unmasking journey was realizing how much I used alcohol to take away some of the traits that made me feel very socially awkward.

    2. SPSpeaker38:26

       Mm-hmm.

    3. APAlex Partridge38:26

       Um, and I think when I realized that I couldn't drink anymore, I certainly lost some friends because there were some friends that I, I didn't really have anything in common with other than-

    4. SPSpeaker38:36

       Mm-hmm

    5. APAlex Partridge38:36

       ... the fact that we just got drunk together.

    6. SPSpeaker38:38

       Mm-hmm.

    7. APAlex Partridge38:39

       And so in that context, I mean, I certainly lost friends, uh, almost as a survival mechanism, 'cause if I carried on maintaining those friendships, that would lead me to potentially drink, which, which for someone like myself, an alcoholic, is, is, uh, very dangerous. So I suppose just rewinding a bit, do you think in that context alcohol can be used as a mask if it does take away some of the traits that you feel awkward about?

    8. SPSpeaker39:06

       Alcohol is a difficult one and a very common one. I think alcohol is the most, um, the most acceptable social accommodation [laughs] . So I do think it's a social accommodation. So it can remove anxiety. It can make us talk more, help us talk more or talk less. It can help-- it can remove that discomfort. Um, it can help us to mask. We mask easier. Uh, we just chat about things. It can actually help us to feel less bored or, uh, less overexcited. Uh, so less or more, and I think, uh, alcohol can actually neutralize, uh, that less or more that we often are. Um, and, uh, when it starts working, so it gives you that social environment, um, obviously we have to look into, okay, if the friendship is based only on drinking together, uh, it's-- uh, we can actually rethink that, and we can actually start thinking, "Okay, this is-- is this an illusion? Uh, am I really enjoying this? Or, um, it's just giving me this illusion that I'm part of this group, and, uh, I'm just enjoying myself." So I think, um, it's a dangerous one obviously, because if we feel that alcohol is working, we will do more, and then it's difficult to stop, uh, and then there is, uh, all this addiction problem. But I think it is a socially acceptable, uh, accommodation that can help to some extent, and that's why people start and they continue, and then we have a problem.

    9. APAlex Partridge40:33

       If you're someone who feels really misunderstood, really lonely, really isolated because you feel like the differences that make you you make socializing really hard and, and then you find alcohol, and you realize that it kind of is the antidote to that. It enables you to socialize. It, it makes you, at least in your mind, able to fit in in a way that is the total antidote for this feeling of loneliness. Can that feeling of f- finally perhaps being accepted, could that potentially le- leave the door open to abusing alcohol?

    10. SPSpeaker41:06

        Oh, yes, absolutely. But I think alcohol is abused because there is nothing else to use to feel better. So if you actually want to feel socially acceptable and you don't have support, you don't find any other way to feel socially acceptable, and alcohol helps, um, th- that's why alcohol starts being used. But I think if we work on self-esteem, if we work on communication, if we work on acceptance, uh, acceptance and understanding of who we are, then we are less likely to actually use alcohol as the only one. So usually alcohol works because it's the only thing that works at that moment because there is nothing else that was offered to a person.

16. 41:48 – 43:32

    The truth about unmasking and grief

    1. APAlex Partridge41:48

       We talk about grief a lot, Dana, on this podcast post-diagnosis, but do you think there's a grieving process that somebody goes through when they start to unmask, potentially, especially if it's perhaps later on in life, and they grieve the version that could have been had they known that they were masking earlier on?

    2. SPSpeaker42:05

       Many people grieve, uh, and I think they need it, but I think that's when they need a lot of help because grief can actually take a lot of energy, a lot of time. And, um, if people don't find a way out, um, it can take over, and, uh, it can carry on, uh, and, uh, then it becomes not very helpful. So talking about that, I mean, you wrote a book about yourself, uh, and then can you imagine writing the same book before you actually knew you had, um, ADHD? So write, writing just autobiography book, that would probably be a very different book. How would you describe yourself and your childhood and your youth? Um, how would you interpret all these challenges? It would probably sound very different. So, um, people do face a very diff- potentially a very different identityUm, and there are really different ways. I mean, some people have good life, and they just need to figure out a few things, and they can actually help themselves with regulation and, um, a daily schedule and start using tools. But some people actually have, uh, very deep problems, and then they need a lot of help to deal with that grief

    3. APAlex Partridge43:22

       If someone wants to unmask, if someone's listening or watching and they think, like, "This sounds like me. I have abandoned my core self for so long, and I really wanna start this journey of unmasking,"

17. 43:32 – 44:55

    How to unmask

    1. APAlex Partridge43:32

       how does somebody unmask?

    2. SPSpeaker43:35

       I would say start small. So think about, uh, where I can comfortably and safely do it. So potentially think about one friend. Uh, think about one colleague. Um, start conversation. Don't reveal everything at once. I mean, do if you feel comfortable. I mean, some women have a really supportive husband. I have a very supportive husband. I can open any conversation I possi- It's very lucky. But some peop- And some people can actually have a person, and they can say, "Listen, I have a lot to tell you. Uh, there is a lot to understand now, and let's start that conversation." But some people can't do that. They don't have that. And I would say make this judgment how, how big you can go, and, uh, if not, then start small. Um, start with one conversation. Start-- For example, they can start talking about conversation why I'm late all the time instead of apologizing all the time. We still, we still need to apologize [laughs] if we are late, but we can explain it better, and we can actually ask person to understand that. And we may actually find that people are understanding. They appreciate that. That friend becomes even better friend. Instead of being upset for us being late, that person can actually understand, and we can manage that communication better. So always start from something small and see how it feels, and then unpeel little by little

18. 44:55 – 49:25

    Top 3 audience questions about un-masking

    1. APAlex Partridge44:55

       Dana, I know there's been a lot of questions from the audience about unmasking, and I wanna read to you the three most popular questions that I received in anticipation of this episode, and they're in the washing machine of woes. And for me, it represents memory loss because I always forget my clothes in my washing machine after the cycle's finished. And I always ask my guests, do you leave your clothes in the washing machine?

    2. SPSpeaker45:19

       I don't. I'm very good with that. [laughs]

    3. APAlex Partridge45:20

       [laughs]

    4. SPSpeaker45:20

       That's not something I struggle with.

    5. APAlex Partridge45:23

       I have got better, though, since I've been using the Tiimo app, uh, the productivity app, which is the sponsor of the show. Uh, this week, Dana, the a- the audience, and this-- these are all on the topic of masking, and these are the three most popular voted questions that the audience were desperate to ask. The first one is, "I've recently received an ADHD diagnosis, and it's really made me reflect on my entire life. I know I've always masked, but I thought it was normal. I'm now questioning everything, even my marriage. Do you have any other accounts of someone questioning such big decisions in their life?"

    6. SPSpeaker45:59

       I do have a lot. That's pretty normal reaction, and it looks really big when you actually start facing that. Uh, but what I wanted to say, the person said I-- they think it's normal. It is normal to mask for pep-- for, for a p- undiagnosed person with ADHD. So, uh, start looking that one by one. It doesn't have to be a big life change. It can be if the person is ready for that, but it doesn't have to be. So again, look into small steps. Uh, look at that as a skill. Um, allow yourself to imb-- be impressed how well you did [laughs] with, uh, without knowing all that, and that can help.

    7. APAlex Partridge46:39

       Fantastic. Thank you, Dana. Allow yourself to walk away from a potentially masked situation that you felt good about and acknowledge that that's okay.

    8. SPSpeaker46:46

       Absolutely. So don't feel bad about it.

    9. APAlex Partridge46:49

       Right. The second most popular audience question is, "I noticed when I speak to someone with an accent, I begin to imitate this. Is this normal ADHD masking behavior?"

    10. SPSpeaker47:00

        It is normal for some people-

    11. APAlex Partridge47:02

        [laughs]

    12. SPSpeaker47:02

        ... and I, uh, am impressed. It's a skill. Enjoy it [laughs]

    13. APAlex Partridge47:06

        [laughs]

    14. SPSpeaker47:07

        And, uh, feel good about it. If you don't, then you can try to fix it, but don't feel bad about it. That's my advice. [laughs]

    15. APAlex Partridge47:13

        I relate to that a lot, actually, and I, I-- because I, I'm-- I've been called posh before, and I have a group of friends that speak similarly to me. And I have another group of friends that perhaps you wouldn't classify as posh. And I definitely dropped my Ts when I'm with that group. And there was one occasion when the two groups came together at the same social event, and everyone was confused. I didn't know which voice [laughs] to put on.

    16. SPSpeaker47:35

        Yeah, if you can enjoy that, that's great. But if you feel bad about it, then it's a problem.

    17. APAlex Partridge47:40

        Yeah. [laughs] Fantastic. Dana, the most popular audience question is, "How do I know what is over-masking and just a normal amount of masking?"

    18. SPSpeaker47:52

        Over-masking, if you feel a huge level of anxiety, if you start feeling panic, if it's incredibly exhausting. So if it's followed by all this, um, load of bad feelings-

    19. APAlex Partridge48:05

        Mm

    20. SPSpeaker48:06

        ... then it's over-masking. You're trying too hard.

    21. APAlex Partridge48:09

        Sure. Makes a lot of sense. If y-- I suppose if you walk away from a situation that you just feel totally drained and, and, and-

    22. SPSpeaker48:15

        Yeah

    23. APAlex Partridge48:15

        ... not good about yourself.

    24. SPSpeaker48:16

        Yeah, exactly. So that's, that's probably the sign of over-masking.

    25. APAlex Partridge48:20

        Fantastic. Dana, thank you so much. Just finally, before we end-

    26. SPSpeaker48:24

        Thank you

    27. APAlex Partridge48:24

        ... this amazing interview, thank you very much, I'm gonna deliver to you a letter that was written by the previous guest, where they wrote a letter to their younger self.

    28. SPSpeaker48:32

        I'm looking forward to this. [laughs]

    29. APAlex Partridge48:34

        Dana, there's the letter.

    30. SPSpeaker48:35

        Thank you. "To my younger self, I will understand all the confusion one day, and instead of being sad or scared, you will be grateful for all, all of it because without all shitty, um-

Episode duration: 49:26