E139: Recapping Chamath's wedding, VC surplus, unions vs Hollywood, room-temp superconductors & more

Jason Calacanis 0:00 Love you guys. Uh, hey, if you guys are a- around, you know, and uh-

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:04 Anyone want to get a glass of wine and some pasta?

Jason Calacanis 0:06 ... maybe we'll get a glass of wine later.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:08 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 0:08 Maybe next week or something. Who knows? Maybe we all get together in person and have a glass of wine.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:12 I'll see you soon. I love you guys.

Jason Calacanis 0:14 Yeah, bye. Bye. Bye.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:14 That's so nice. I love you besties. Ciao.

Jason Calacanis 0:17 Ciao, ciao. Ciao, ciao. (whoosh)

David Sacks 0:18 You're about to come to Italy and basically you're gonna gain 15 pounds, for sure.

David Friedberg 0:23 (laughs) No. Okay, so we were there in Italy.

Jason Calacanis 0:24 This is a long time ago. Is this when we were in Venice?

David Sacks 0:27 The quality of Italian white wine is outrageous.

Jason Calacanis 0:30 Really?

David Sacks 0:30 It's outrageous.

Jason Calacanis 0:32 Do they have a men's bikini for you?

David Sacks 0:34 Oh my god. I would buy that.

Jason Calacanis 0:34 For when we're in Italy?

David Sacks 0:35 I would buy that.

David Friedberg 0:36 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 0:36 Let's just say thank you to the amazing people of Italy for having-

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:41 Oh, what an incredible country.

Jason Calacanis 0:41 ... the greatest country for adults to go on vacation in.

David Sacks 0:44 What an incredible country.

Jason Calacanis 0:48 Here we go. In three, two... Hey. Oh, ah, he- uh.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:52 Hey, everybody.

Jason Calacanis 0:52 Uh, three, two-

David Friedberg 0:54 Someone's going through puberty.

Jason Calacanis 0:55 Hey, everybody. Wel-... Motorcycle.

David Friedberg 0:57 Try it again.

Jason Calacanis 0:58 Three, two... Hey, everybody. Welcome to another episode of the All-In Podcast. We are here in beautiful Portofino, Italy, and we have found a new bestie. Introduce yourself. Uh, Natalie is your name?

Natalie Palihapitiya 1:11 That is my name.

Jason Calacanis 1:12 Right.

Natalie Palihapitiya 1:12 And don't be surprised by my surname.

Jason Calacanis 1:14 Ah, you've got a surname. Uh, what is the surname?

Natalie Palihapitiya 1:18 Paliangritia. No, no.

Jason Calacanis 1:20 Ah.

David Sacks 1:20 Paliangritia.

Natalie Palihapitiya 1:20 Sorry, Palihapitia.

Jason Calacanis 1:21 Palihapitia. So, you're cousins apparently, and you run a biotech business, I understand, here in Italy.

Natalie Palihapitiya 1:27 In my spare time.

Jason Calacanis 1:28 Yes.

Natalie Palihapitiya 1:29 When somebody else doesn't consume the life out of me.

Jason Calacanis 1:32 Got it. Okay, so you're, uh, dealing drugs in Italy. And welcome to the All-In Pod.

Natalie Palihapitiya 1:37 Thank you very much.

Jason Calacanis 1:37 Uh, in all seriousness, uh, we are here in Italy, uh, because Chamath and Natalie got married. Big round of applause.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:46 Yay.

David Sacks 1:46 Yay.

David Friedberg 1:46 Whistle

Guest 1:47 whistles

Jason Calacanis 1:47 Ah, very nice. And, uh, we decided we'd tape an episode very quickly. Uh, but tell us, um, what was it like, uh, at the wedding, marrying Chamath Palihapitia? Tell us about the wedding.

Natalie Palihapitiya 2:00 Woo. It was, um... it was a lot of, of work. And Chamath was, as you can expect, completely, utterly useless.

Jason Calacanis 2:11 Yes. We've seen this.

Natalie Palihapitiya 2:13 And, uh-

David Friedberg 2:13 (laughs)

Natalie Palihapitiya 2:13 ... in fact, in fact counterproductive.

Jason Calacanis 2:15 He showed up though.

Natalie Palihapitiya 2:15 And at times really, really frustrating.

Jason Calacanis 2:18 Yes.

Natalie Palihapitiya 2:18 Um, but I love him nonetheless.

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:20 Aw.

Natalie Palihapitiya 2:20 So here we are, very happy.

David Sacks 2:23 This is the moment I would like to take credit for 30% of the wedding.

Jason Calacanis 2:27 Ah.

David Sacks 2:27 An- a number that you can't dispute. You don't really know what it means.

Jason Calacanis 2:31 Yeah.

David Sacks 2:31 And then everybody ends up thanking you effusively, because they're like, "The 30% that they loved the most, that was me."

Jason Calacanis 2:37 Yeah, if you want to make an estimate, 20-30% chance is, uh, you can't go wrong. Friedberg and Sacks are with us. The Don, uh, Sacks, you had a lot of clandestine meetings here. Any... are we any closer to peace in Ukraine, Russia? I saw you talking to some Russian emissaries. You've been on the continent for a full month. Tell us, how much-

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:55 Where did you go for 12 hours yesterday, Sacks?

Jason Calacanis 2:57 Yeah, I know that you've been on some of these crazy yachts out here trying to broker peace.

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:00 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 3:00 How close are we in... how are you enjoying, uh, your time in, uh, Europe this summer?

David Friedberg 3:04 I don't think we're too close. But, uh, let me say a word about this happy couple here. So Natalie is brilliant and unstoppable. Chamath is superficial and plastic.

Jason Calacanis 3:16 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:16 (laughs)

David Friedberg 3:16 So this was like the wedding of Oppenheimer and Barbie.

Jason Calacanis 3:20 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:21 (laughs)

David Friedberg 3:22 And, uh, in that analogy, Chamath, you're Barbie.

Jason Calacanis 3:25 Yes, absolutely. Lots of substance and fire over here, and complete narcissism and plastic over here. Also, the genitalia, the same size. They just can. Very smoothed over, just barely a bump. Yeah. Okay. Uh-

Natalie Palihapitiya 3:39 I'm gonna leave you guys and your genitalia-

Jason Calacanis 3:41 Okay. We'll, uh, we'll do a show. Natalie, congratulations. We love you, sis.

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:44 Congratulations.

Natalie Palihapitiya 3:45 Also, thank you J Col, because you celebrated our-

Jason Calacanis 3:47 Okay, okay, that's enough. That's enough.

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:48 That's enough. Okay.

David Friedberg 3:49 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 3:49 Here she goes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:50 Love you.

Natalie Palihapitiya 3:50 I wasn't talking about Chamath. So could you hear?

David Friedberg 3:51 Oh, yes. Cut you off.

Jason Calacanis 3:54 Oh, here we go. Here we go. What a great, great, uh, week we've had here. Lots of friends came in.

David Sacks 4:02 Lots of friends. Lots of special friends.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:04 Lots of poker.

Jason Calacanis 4:05 Lots of friends, lots of poker.

David Sacks 4:06 Lots of poker.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:06 Lots of poker players that weren't invited to the wedding but were invited to the poker game.

David Sacks 4:12 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 4:12 I mean-

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:13 I mean, we walked into the poker game last night, and there were all these guys that I didn't see at the wedding. And you invited these guys-

Jason Calacanis 4:19 No, no, no.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:19 ... to come to your poker game.

David Sacks 4:20 No, let's be honest.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:21 But they didn't get invited to the wedding.

David Sacks 4:22 Wait, let's, let's be honest. I think it was the most unbelievably eclectic guest list-

Jason Calacanis 4:26 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:27 Yes. (laughs)

David Sacks 4:27 ... of any wedding that's ever happened.

David Friedberg 4:28 That's very true. That's very true.

David Sacks 4:29 I mean, literally, it's like a two-by-two matrix of villainy-

Jason Calacanis 4:34 Yes.

David Sacks 4:34 ... wealth, fame, and infamy.

Jason Calacanis 4:36 Yeah. Yes.

David Sacks 4:37 I mean, you had every quadrant covered.

Jason Calacanis 4:39 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:39 Yeah.

David Sacks 4:39 It was incredible.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:40 This guy and I were joking, it's like walking into the bar on Tatooine in Star Wars.

David Sacks 4:46 Yes. (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:48 (singing) Got a smoking hookah in the corner.

Jason Calacanis 4:49 We don't serve your kind. We don't serve your kind.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:52 People chained up. I mean, it was a whole rigamarole last night.

Jason Calacanis 4:55 Oh my God.

David Friedberg 4:55 Well, I, I could tell that when I was doing my toast, which Chamath told me, "No holds barred, just go for it."

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:00 Yes.

Jason Calacanis 5:01 Go for it.

David Friedberg 5:01 My toast, he really meant roast.

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:02 Roast. (laughs) Yeah, he roasted us.

David Friedberg 5:04 So I was-

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:04 The Italians did not get the jokes, by the way.

David Friedberg 5:06 Yeah, so like half the audience was laughing. The poker guys were laughing.

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:10 Yeah.

David Friedberg 5:10 And then the family section, not laughing at all.

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:13 Not laughing.

David Friedberg 5:14 A lot of stunned silence.

Jason Calacanis 5:15 I think a lot of them got the jokes, and they, they were in on it. But, uh, what an amazing week we've had here. Um, and thank you for hosting us, Chamath.

David Sacks 5:22 Oh, you're welcome.

Jason Calacanis 5:23 It was absolutely wonderful.

David Sacks 5:25 This really is in so many ways.

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:26 We should... by the way, we should cut in some shots in the video on where we're sitting right now, this incredible beach club.

David Sacks 5:30 Yes.

Jason Calacanis 5:30 We're looking out here on incredible views.

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:32 In Paraggi, right? Paraggi?

David Friedberg 5:33 People sleuthed it out. I posted a photo of us just meeting out there, doing our little board meeting, and people immediately sleuthed out you're at Langostina's or what's it?

David Sacks 5:41 Langostina. Paraggi.

David Friedberg 5:43 Langostina.

David Sacks 5:44 Langostina.

David Friedberg 5:44 I guess, famous red beach restaurant.

David Sacks 5:46 I mean, Langostina has these two incredible restaurants in Milano, three. They're just top of the top. And they have this incredible beach restaurant here, and it's the hotel, or sorry, it's the restaurant that is beside the beach club that's also owned by the Splendido where we are...

David Friedberg 6:02 Yeah.

David Sacks 6:02 Where you guys are all staying. So yeah, it's been...It's been an amazing couple of days.

David Friedberg 6:06 And th- this little block is called Paraggi, or something?

David Sacks 6:08 This part is Paraggi, and then if you go just a little bit further, you're in Portofino proper.

David Friedberg 6:13 Yeah.

David Sacks 6:13 Yeah.

David Friedberg 6:14 Amazing.

Jason Calacanis 6:15 Wonderful food.

David Sacks 6:16 Incredible food.

Jason Calacanis 6:17 Unbelievable. We've eaten like kings-

David Sacks 6:20 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 6:20 ... and, uh, queens, as the case may be. And, uh, just the hospitality in Italy is amazing. One of my favorite places to come.

David Sacks 6:26 I just wanna say to all of you guys, and to all of our friends, I mean, you guys literally flew halfway around the world for three days.

Jason Calacanis 6:34 Yeah.

Guest 6:34 You did ruin all our summer plans.

David Sacks 6:36 I mean, it was incredible. And, and frankly, I picked the th- we picked the three worst days, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 6:41 Yeah. If you had a job...

David Sacks 6:42 Everybody had to work.

Jason Calacanis 6:44 Yeah.

David Sacks 6:44 A certain person had two rooms rented at the Splendido just for meetings-

Jason Calacanis 6:47 Yes.

David Sacks 6:47 ... and he would just be running back meetings, and then trying to go to the... I mean, it's incredible. You guys, it really means a lot.

David Friedberg 6:52 I think, I think this whole thing was a conspiracy to convene a high-stakes poker game.

David Sacks 6:55 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 6:56 Yeah. Totally.

David Friedberg 6:56 You knew you were spending the summer in Italy-

Jason Calacanis 6:58 (laughs)

David Sacks 6:58 (laughs)

David Friedberg 6:58 There is no poker here.

Jason Calacanis 6:59 If I marry her-

David Friedberg 6:59 And you're like, "How do I get the poker game to come to Italy?"

Guest 7:03 And I think he probably, he netted a profit to cover the wedding.

David Sacks 7:06 Not... No, not to cover the wedding.

David Friedberg 7:08 (laughs)

David Sacks 7:08 But I did w- I did win a $1.2 million pot from (beep) .

Jason Calacanis 7:11 That was crazy.

David Sacks 7:12 That was crazy.

David Friedberg 7:12 My favorite poker story is that you got a call out of the blue from (beep) -

David Sacks 7:16 Oh.

David Friedberg 7:17 ... saying, "I'm (beep) your neighborhood."

David Sacks 7:18 (beep) is the best (beep) . I get a text-

Jason Calacanis 7:19 Oh my god.

David Sacks 7:20 "Need room Splendido-"

David Friedberg 7:21 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 7:22 (laughs)

David Sacks 7:22 ... at, like, 2:00 in the morning. And I was, I l- I looked at my phone and I'm like, "Why is (beep) texting me at 2:00 in the morning?"

Jason Calacanis 7:28 Yeah.

David Sacks 7:28 "Need room Splendido." And I said, " (beep) , it's Chamath. Is everything okay? Do you need any help?" "Need room Splendido." And I said, "I'm not your fucking travel coordinator." And he goes, "Can you help me get a room at the Splendido Hotel?" I said, "What? You're here?"

Jason Calacanis 7:40 Yeah.

David Sacks 7:41 And so I said, "Well, why don't you just meander into our game?"

Jason Calacanis 7:43 Yeah.

David Sacks 7:44 And so (beep) actually came to the wedding.

Jason Calacanis 7:45 Was he around-

Guest 7:46 Was he randomly in the neighborhood?

David Sacks 7:47 He was in the area.

Jason Calacanis 7:49 Well, he was spending a night in (beep) , so he thought he would hop over here.

Guest 7:51 Hey.

David Sacks 7:51 No, stop. (laughs)

Guest 7:52 Oh, uh, hey.

David Friedberg 7:53 (laughs)

David Sacks 7:54 That's such a bad joke.

Jason Calacanis 7:55 It's not good, is it?

David Friedberg 7:56 (laughs)

Guest 7:56 That's such a- I stole that joke from-

David Sacks 7:57 Such a bad joke.

David Friedberg 7:57 You stole it from him?

Guest 7:58 I stole it. Oh, that's how it works in Hollywood, okay? There's a little backstory to all this. What happened was, Chamath told me in the spring, "Hey, listen, J-Cal, I'm finally... I'm so excited. I'm gonna marry Nat." And I said, "Oh, that's great. You, you had the kids and now you're getting married. It's not the traditional way to do it, but congratulations." And he said, "Yeah, we're gonna have, like, a little thing with our families, uh, in Italy. Very bespoke. The kids, parents, that's it. And then, you know, back in Silicon Valley and the Bay Area, we'll have a backyard party for everybody else." And I said, "Great. Let me know where in Italy we're going." And, uh, Nat said, "Amore, it's, uh, just gonna be the immediate family." And I said, "Great. Where am I going? Tell me the location. And, um, if you need an officiant, I'm in." And then a week later, we get an email. Nat and, uh, Chamath discussed it and they said, "You know what? J-Cal's right. We should invite everybody to Italy." And so, uh, thanks for making that decision. And-

David Sacks 8:52 Oh my god, thank you guys for coming, honestly.

Jason Calacanis 8:54 Yeah.

Guest 8:54 But, but they didn't-

David Sacks 8:54 It was a dream.

Guest 8:55 They didn't tell anyone J-Cal was gonna officiate. So we're sitting there, Italian style, for like two hours, assembling for the wedding. Nothing happens. You're all just standing around, waiting for something to happen. And then Chamath comes in, Natalie comes in beautiful, dressed amazing, music is incredible. And they sit there for another 10 minutes, and they turn around and they say, "The officiant... We just got a letter, the officiant is sick. We need someone, we need someone to step in." And then J-Cal pops up in the back-

David Sacks 9:22 (laughs)

Guest 9:22 ... "I got it. I got it."

Jason Calacanis 9:23 "I'll officiate."

Guest 9:24 Knocks the Italian royalty to the right and the left-

David Sacks 9:26 (laughs)

Guest 9:27 ... plows his way through the audience, makes his way to the top-

David Sacks 9:29 (laughs)

Guest 9:30 ... pulls out his American bow tie, or whatever he had, and says, "Let's do this." And then we had J-Cal officiate-

David Friedberg 9:35 You did, you did surprise me with that.

Guest 9:36 ... for the wedding in a very J-Cal way.

David Friedberg 9:38 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 9:38 Were you surprised?

David Friedberg 9:39 Yeah, I was surprised.

David Sacks 9:39 You were surprised?

David Friedberg 9:40 Yeah, you, you got me-

David Sacks 9:40 A lot of people were surprised.

David Friedberg 9:42 ... with that routine.

Jason Calacanis 9:42 Yeah.

David Friedberg 9:42 You got me.

David Sacks 9:43 Yeah.

Guest 9:43 Because your original-

David Friedberg 9:44 But J-Cal, I heard-

Guest 9:44 ... your original email said J-Cal was gonna officiate, but then we heard-

David Friedberg 9:47 I missed it.

Guest 9:47 ... nothing for two and a half months.

David Friedberg 9:49 Yeah.

Guest 9:49 And no one really knew, and-

David Sacks 9:51 Yeah.

Guest 9:51 But it was a big secret, right?

Jason Calacanis 9:52 We kept it a big secret.

David Friedberg 9:53 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 9:53 Wanted it to be a surprise, and, um, it was just... The vows and the poetry that Nat and Chamath-

David Sacks 9:58 Oh, the poetry. Oh, the poetry.

Jason Calacanis 10:00 ... uh, shared was amazing.

Guest 10:02 You wrote the stuff.

David Sacks 10:02 Amore. Amore.

Guest 10:03 (laughs) No, don't make her, don't make her do that.

Jason Calacanis 10:04 No, no, no, no, no.

Guest 10:05 If you want her to do that.

Jason Calacanis 10:06 Yeah.

David Sacks 10:06 Can you do a dramatic reading of the poem that I wrote for you?

Guest 10:10 (laughs)

David Friedberg 10:10 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 10:11 Oh. This was, uh-

Guest 10:12 Chamath wrote a poem-

Jason Calacanis 10:13 (laughs)

Guest 10:13 ... "Roses Are Red."

Jason Calacanis 10:14 ... for Nat's wedding, and said-

David Sacks 10:15 (laughs) But, but do the setup that w-

Jason Calacanis 10:16 Yeah.

David Sacks 10:16 ... that comes before.

Jason Calacanis 10:17 Well, so this-

Guest 10:18 I need, um-

Jason Calacanis 10:19 The setup was-

Guest 10:20 No, no.

David Friedberg 10:20 I remember. It goes like this.

Jason Calacanis 10:21 ... that Nat would read Chamath's poems, and Chamath would read-

Guest 10:24 Roses, poe-

Jason Calacanis 10:24 ... Nat's poems. And so Nat had this incredible, uh, Paulo Coelho poems, incredibly well thought out.

Guest 10:32 Nat, turn.

Jason Calacanis 10:32 And, um-

Guest 10:33 Sorry.

Jason Calacanis 10:34 No.

Guest 10:34 And, uh, Chamath wrote a poem from Anonymous that he found, um-

David Friedberg 10:38 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 10:38 ... at a rest stop on the 280-

Guest 10:40 (laughs)

David Friedberg 10:40 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 10:40 ... written on the inside of the, uh-

David Friedberg 10:42 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 10:42 ... bathroom stall. Roses are red-

David Friedberg 10:44 No, no. Let her do it.

Jason Calacanis 10:45 (laughs)

David Friedberg 10:46 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 10:46 Violets are-

Guest 10:47 No, go, go ahead. Go ahead.

David Friedberg 10:48 Now she's got it.

Jason Calacanis 10:48 Okay. You remember it? You should have it committed to memory.

David Friedberg 10:52 (laughs)

Guest 10:52 Let me think.

10:53 Yeah.

10:54 Roses are red. Pickles are green. I love your legs, and what's in between.

David Friedberg 11:02 Oh, God.

Guest 11:03 Oh, God. (laughs) It's so embarrassing.

Jason Calacanis 11:05 It was so embarrassing.

Guest 11:06 And she had to read this-

Jason Calacanis 11:07 She literally just dropped the virus-

Guest 11:09 ... in front of all of the Italian aristocracy.

David Friedberg 11:11 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 11:11 (laughs) In front of the American, and the American-

Guest 11:14 Chamath.

David Sacks 11:14 (laughs) And the Americans-

David Friedberg 11:14 (laughs)

Guest 11:14 ... and the Americans all rolled laughing.

Jason Calacanis 11:16 Horrific. Horrific.

Guest 11:16 I mean, I... It really was like a horror tattooing.

David Sacks 11:18 No, no, no. Her, her, her first poem was a sonnet from bullying Shakespeare. My first poem was Beyonce's Cuff It.

Guest 11:26 Yeah.

David Friedberg 11:27 (laughs)

David Sacks 11:27 Where s- where the last line is, "Will you sit on top of me?" Which she has to say looking at her dad. (laughs)

Guest 11:33 It was so awkward.

Jason Calacanis 11:33 Wow. It was so awkward.

David Sacks 11:35 Then her second poem was, uh, something f- by Gregory Hoffman.

Jason Calacanis 11:40 TS Eliot? Who was it?

David Sacks 11:41 Gregory Hoffman, I think it was.

Guest 11:43 That's right.

David Sacks 11:43 Something Hoffman.

David Friedberg 11:44 Yep.

David Sacks 11:45 And then mine was-

Jason Calacanis 11:46 Yeah.

David Sacks 11:47 ... this anonymous thing.

Jason Calacanis 11:48 From a, from a rest stop.

David Friedberg 11:48 (laughs)

David Sacks 11:48 And then her third was e. e. cummings, and mine was Dr. Seuss. I thought that was nice.

Jason Calacanis 11:51 Yeah. Well, charming.

Guest 11:51 Dr. Seuss was nice. Yeah.

David Sacks 11:52 But Dr. Seuss, but...

Jason Calacanis 11:52 But Dr. Seuss was quite funny.

David Sacks 11:53 Daniel Hoffman.

Jason Calacanis 11:54 Yes.

Jason Calacanis 11:55 But we had a great time. There's been a lot of news. Uh...

David Friedberg 11:57 And J-Cal, you got here early, right? Weren't you, like, camping along the coastline because you wanted to see the sunset?

Jason Calacanis 12:01 Yes, I went to check the tide.

Guest 12:03 You went camping. (laughs)

David Friedberg 12:04 You went camping.

Guest 12:04 He was trying to-

David Friedberg 12:04 Decided to bring San Francisco to this beautiful, pristine-

Jason Calacanis 12:08 (laughs)

David Sacks 12:08 Defecating everywhere. (laughs)

David Friedberg 12:09 Yes.... leaving a trail of needles in his wake. Ozempic needles. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 12:13 Ozempic needles.

David Friedberg 12:13 Ozempic needles. Wegovy.

David Sacks 12:15 Plastic trash.

Jason Calacanis 12:16 (laughs)

David Sacks 12:16 He was trying to show he had Ozempic.

Jason Calacanis 12:17 I did pu- I did post a thirst trap.

David Friedberg 12:19 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 12:19 I'm very proud. I'm down 41 pounds from the peak.

David Sacks 12:22 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 12:23 Uh, 20 pounds with, uh, hiking and using the fasting app that Kevin Rose built, and then the other half, uh, Zero, great fasting app, and the other half was Ozempic, Wegovy.

David Sacks 12:32 I don't understand. What does an app do to help you fast? You just fast. You just don't eat.

Jason Calacanis 12:35 Uh, you click a button.

David Sacks 12:36 Do you eat the app?

Jason Calacanis 12:37 It gives an animation.

David Sacks 12:38 And not food?

Jason Calacanis 12:38 And then it-

David Sacks 12:39 Oh, I see. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 12:39 ... counts down the clock.

David Friedberg 12:40 Y- y- wh- when you're trying to decide whether to eat or not, you push a button, "Should I eat or not?" And it says no.

David Sacks 12:44 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 12:44 Yeah. It shows you a picture of yourself.

David Friedberg 12:47 (laughs)

David Sacks 12:47 Just a mirror.

Jason Calacanis 12:48 A fat picture. It shows you a fat picture of yourself.

David Sacks 12:50 A fat picture.

Jason Calacanis 12:50 Yeah.

David Sacks 12:50 A fat picture.

Jason Calacanis 12:50 That's what I did. I took a picture of myself like fat Jason, and I just... Every time I open the refrigerator, it's there.

David Sacks 12:56 Can I ask you a question?

Jason Calacanis 12:57 Yes.

David Sacks 12:57 Is it, is it... Are we not allowed to talk about, like, fatness now or...

Jason Calacanis 13:03 I, uh, I have strong feelings on this. I think when y-... I, I ran marathons my whole life. I was very svelte, 165 pounds until I was 32, and then I added two or three pounds until you guys knew me, and I hit 213 at my peak. I'm 171 now, 172. And, um, you know, I wish more people would have done an intervention. You were very clear with me, "Hey, you gotta lose weight. We did a weight bed."

David Sacks 13:27 Oh my God. I have to tell-

Jason Calacanis 13:28 No, no, no, no. I don't wanna do a weight bed story.

David Sacks 13:29 I'm telling the story.

Jason Calacanis 13:30 No, no, no.

David Sacks 13:30 You can't fucking spike the story. I'm telling the story.

Jason Calacanis 13:32 I can't spike the story? It's too much.

David Sacks 13:32 No, no, don't, no. You can't spike the story. Now, this is-

Jason Calacanis 13:35 All right, fine.

David Sacks 13:35 ... this is your wedding present to me.

Jason Calacanis 13:36 Okay. Thank you.

David Sacks 13:37 J-Cal, J-Cal is bordering on morbidly obese.

Jason Calacanis 13:42 W- I was two-

David Friedberg 13:42 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 13:42 This is when I was 213.

David Friedberg 13:44 And you're how tall?

David Sacks 13:45 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 13:45 5'9" on a good day.

David Friedberg 13:46 5'9".

Jason Calacanis 13:46 Five eight and a half, yeah.

David Sacks 13:47 Oh.

David Friedberg 13:47 (laughs) 5'9" on a good day. On a good day.

David Sacks 13:48 By the way, for all-

David Friedberg 13:49 (laughs)

David Sacks 13:50 ... fr- v- v- for all these people on Twitter, everybody who m- who meets me always says, "Oh, you look so much shorter on camera." Uh, maybe it's because I slouch, but I'm 6'2" just in case everybody's curious.

Jason Calacanis 13:58 Yes, on a good day.

David Sacks 13:59 Anyways, J-Cal, J-Cal is, is bordering on morbidly obese, so I make a weight bed with him.

Jason Calacanis 14:05 Yeah.

David Sacks 14:06 And-

Jason Calacanis 14:06 I was 213, and I said, "I can get to 193."

David Sacks 14:08 One... Yeah, 193, and I was like, "I'll give you 10K a pound or something."

Jason Calacanis 14:12 Whatever. It was 100K bet.

David Sacks 14:13 It was $100,000 bet.

Jason Calacanis 14:15 And I hit it. I hit 193.

David Sacks 14:15 But it's a year. He had a year. He had a year. A year goes by, I put it in my calendar.

Jason Calacanis 14:21 Boop.

David Sacks 14:21 And what I do is I schedule the poker game-

Jason Calacanis 14:25 Uh-oh.

David Sacks 14:25 ... for the day before, knowing that we're gonna play through midnight. So I'm like, "Oh, I'm gonna set this guy up." So I waited a whole year.

Jason Calacanis 14:34 Unbelievable.

David Sacks 14:34 We played poker. The clock strikes midnight, and he had been eating pizza and ice cream and-

Jason Calacanis 14:39 Drinking ice cream.

David Sacks 14:40 And I'm watching him the whole time like-

Jason Calacanis 14:41 Totally, everything.

David Sacks 14:41 ... "I'm gonna win this $100,000."

Jason Calacanis 14:43 (laughs) I'd never seen such a spread like this.

David Sacks 14:44 And then I say, and then I say, "Hey, it's time. It's 12:01. It's time for the weight bed."

Jason Calacanis 14:48 (laughs)

David Friedberg 14:49 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 14:49 I have to start.

David Sacks 14:49 He says, "What weight bed?" And I said, "Motherfucker, you made a weight bed with me for $100,000-"

Jason Calacanis 14:53 But now, I just want it to be clear.

David Sacks 14:54 "... a year ago."

Jason Calacanis 14:54 I have been 192, 193 for months. I have hit the, the thing. I- l- listen to me.

David Sacks 14:59 So he says... He starts panicking. He, he says, okay-

Jason Calacanis 15:01 'Cause I weigh myself in the morning.

David Sacks 15:03 He says... He's panicking. He says, "Okay, give me a few minutes." He runs into my child's bedroom and takes a shit.

Jason Calacanis 15:10 No, I just took a leak.

David Sacks 15:11 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 15:11 I took a leak.

David Sacks 15:12 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 15:13 He tried to lose the weight.

David Friedberg 15:14 Oh, God, Jeremy.

David Sacks 15:15 He tried to lose the weight at mid... Who could poo at midnight? Nobody could poo at midnight.

Jason Calacanis 15:19 (laughs) Anyway, I get on the scale.

David Sacks 15:20 Nobody knows-

Jason Calacanis 15:20 I'm 195.

David Sacks 15:22 And so he, and so-

Jason Calacanis 15:23 But he watched me take all my clothes off. I'm like, "No, I'm not taking my clothes off."

David Sacks 15:25 I say, I say, "We have to do the weigh-in." Now, in fairness to J-Cal, I did not pre-agree that I had to, uh, that I could pick the time. So he says-

Jason Calacanis 15:33 Yeah.

David Sacks 15:33 ... "I have until midnight."

Jason Calacanis 15:34 Which is true.

David Sacks 15:35 So I said, "Okay, fine." He goes home.

Jason Calacanis 15:38 Goes home. I go in the sauna.

David Sacks 15:39 He does not eat. He puts on a sweatsuit. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 15:42 (laughs) I go for a run. I'm like Rocky around San Francisco.

David Sacks 15:44 He sweats for four hours. He gets, like, a 10th of a pound under before midnight.

Jason Calacanis 15:49 Yes.

David Sacks 15:50 And then he's like, "You owe me $100,000."

Jason Calacanis 15:51 No.

David Sacks 15:51 But then he was kind.

Jason Calacanis 15:52 Yeah.

David Sacks 15:53 He said, "Look, put me in the mini one, for one drop, 100K."

Jason Calacanis 15:57 One drop, and we'll both go-

David Sacks 15:58 "And we'll chop it up."

Jason Calacanis 15:58 ... and we'll pool it. We'll chop it up. We had a great time.

David Sacks 16:00 Anyways, J-Cal lost in the first eight hands and-

Jason Calacanis 16:02 (laughs) That's not true. I lasted longer than you. (laughs)

David Sacks 16:04 ... got 100K. (laughs) I shoulda just leaving it in-

Jason Calacanis 16:07 Ah, I burned it. (blows raspberry)

David Sacks 16:08 Okay, back to you, but that was the weight bed story.

Jason Calacanis 16:09 Anyway, uh, but I would say, uh, in terms of weight, it is pernicious in America. I don't think we should be celebrating it or tolerating it. I think we should be compassionate. I think Ozempic and Wegovy, um, are incredible tools-

David Sacks 16:21 Mounjaro.

Jason Calacanis 16:22 ... and Mounjaro, um, I, I don't, I, I didn't talk about it for the first year. David, you've done it as well and you've been honest that you've tried Wegovy or whatever, and you lost a lot of weight, so congratulations. Uh, these guys have been skinny forever. But, um, I think, take it seriously. It takes a lot of discipline, uh, but it can be done, and, um, I encourage people, the gains I've gotten from being 40 pounds lighter have been tremendous. Um, I feel great. My energy level's different. Uh, my thinking is different. My sleep's better. Everything's great. And so I just wanna be around for a long time so that we can do a thousand episodes of this show for you and the fans, and, um, yeah, being fat sucks. The end. And if you suffer-

David Sacks 17:01 Do you think, but do you think it's, it's being normalized, and do you think that that's healthy?

Jason Calacanis 17:05 What do you think?

David Sacks 17:06 I, like, I- I think-

Jason Calacanis 17:08 Right into the microphone.

David Sacks 17:09 No one, no one makes... No one chooses obesity. Obesity is a struggle, just like diabetes. No, no one chooses diabetes. Diabetes is a struggle. I've, I've, you know, done some work, made some investments, been on the board of some companies that have been involved in trying to address the needs in this space. And one of the things that we've learnt a lot about is how much of a social stigma it feels. People that are struggling with obesity and struggling with diabetes don't feel comfortable actively talking about it.

Jason Calacanis 17:35 Yeah.

David Sacks 17:36 Because they hold a deep amount of shame about it.

Jason Calacanis 17:38 Yes.

David Sacks 17:38 They recognize that there's something deeply unhealthy about it, and they feel deep shame because they're often portrayed as having the choice and making the decisions that got them to this point.

Jason Calacanis 17:49 Yeah.

David Sacks 17:49 And the truth is, we live in a world with extraordinary abundance in the first world. We live in a world with extraordinary opportunities for low-cost calorie consumption. We find a lot of joy, uh, in our lifestyles, and it... You know, ultimately, living a happy life can lead people to a very sad place. Um, and so generally I would say that this is not something w-

Chamath Palihapitiya 18:11 ... that should be, uh, stigmatized in, in an open way. It should be treated with compassion, but it should be spoken about openly, which is that there- there is a- a challenge and a struggle that people have, and we need to help, and everyone needs to kind of be cognizant of the fact that-

Jason Calacanis 18:24 I-

Chamath Palihapitiya 18:24 ... that's- that's the thing

David Sacks 18:25 I think we need to-

Chamath Palihapitiya 18:26 ... that shifts here.

David Sacks 18:26 I think we're normalizing it, and I think it's wrong.

Jason Calacanis 18:28 Yes.

David Sacks 18:28 I- I- when I first came to Canada, you see the pictures when I was, like, fresh off the boat, that's what we used to call immigrants, I was rail-thin skinny. Rail thin. And then, after a year of eating whatever food it was that we could afford-

Jason Calacanis 18:43 Yep.

David Sacks 18:43 ... I became really fat. And you could see it in the pictures. And I was fat all through my grade school. I was a little skinny, but skinny fat in the face, but basically fat all through high school, and then I finally started working out and taking care of myself. And it had a huge impact on my self-esteem and my self-confidence. It had a huge impact on my health.

Jason Calacanis 19:02 Yep.

David Sacks 19:03 I saw it basically kill my father. It's given seven- 11 of my aunts and uncles diabetes.

Jason Calacanis 19:08 Crazy.

David Sacks 19:08 So, I think that, like, all of this normalization is unhealthy, because it actually is killing people.

Jason Calacanis 19:15 What I learned from the dieting is portion control in America is just out of control. It- it is the wrong portion sizes, so-

David Sacks 19:24 You see it here.

Jason Calacanis 19:25 ... and you see it here. When you eat here, here's a little tuna, here's a small pasta, uh, you know, here's some cheese and some grapes for dessert, you're done. And so, once I got my portion control, I was fine. Snacking also. But I just wish anybody who's suffering from it, um, you know, work with your doctors, work with nutritionists.

David Sacks 19:40 You were overweight, too, for a long time.

Jason Calacanis 19:42 Were you? Freebird?

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:44 Yeah, I, um-

Jason Calacanis 19:46 What were you overweight from?

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:47 I- I grew up not eating well. I was overweight in college.

Jason Calacanis 19:51 Right in the microphone.

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:52 After college is when I really started to get exercise actively and bec- 'cause it was never part of my upbringing as a kid, was like, eat well, get exercise. I- I was very much self-taught. I've learned how to cook and learned a lot about nutrition on my own. Um, and, you know, look, I- I took- I took action on my own, uh, in my early 20s. So... But, yeah, look, I mean, it- it's so easy to not know where you find yourself, and then you find yourself in this place, and I do agree that being cognizant of where you are and addressing it in an open way, in an active way, is the only path. I mean, it's just every- every cycle we come around with some new easy solution. You guys remember the, uh, what was it? Fen- fenflam?

David Sacks 20:32 Fen-phen. Fen-phen.

Jason Calacanis 20:32 Fen-phen, yeah, you gotta be careful with that one, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:34 That one didn't work out.

Jason Calacanis 20:34 That was speed, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:35 And so, look, I mean, the data so far looks great, uh, with these GLP, um, you know-

David Sacks 20:41 GLP-1s, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:42 Uh, these drugs seem to be very effective. There's some data now that shows as soon as you stop taking it, the- the average person on it gains the weight right back, there was this-

Jason Calacanis 20:49 No, that didn't happen for me.

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:50 ... increased muscle mass.

David Sacks 20:52 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:52 Maybe not, but like-

Jason Calacanis 20:52 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:53 ... th- th- you know, across a large population, there's just data that's showing there's never gonna be an easy path, and it's- it's a very difficult, um thing, yeah.

Jason Calacanis 21:00 It's a process. You know, the- the thing I learned is, if you just have, like, one Oreo a day, or every other day, let's say that's 50 calories, you have one of those every other day, you're gonna gain two pounds a year for 20 years, now you're 40 pounds overweight. It happens very slowly, you add it, and then you just have to be super disciplined, and you can lose a half a pound or a pound a week, and then it can come off, so, um-

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:22 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 21:22 ... I really think it should be a movement in the United States. So much of our downstream issues, diabetes, heart disease, cancer, et cetera, seem to be contributed by obesity. So, I think for our entire- for the entire country, I think, if I ran for president, it would be Wegovy for everybody.

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:41 Absolutely.

Jason Calacanis 21:41 Everybo- anybody who wants it-

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:43 There you go, there you have it. There you have it.

Jason Calacanis 21:43 ... Wegovy forever is my platform.

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:45 Single-issue voters, there's a platform you can vote for.

Jason Calacanis 21:47 Yeah, that's it. Single-issue platform.

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:48 Yeah. All right, should we get on the agenda?

Jason Calacanis 21:50 Um, get in shape. There's some news, I think-

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:52 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 21:52 ... um, we could, we could touch on.

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:53 Sax, how you feeling?

Guest 21:54 I got a plane to catch. Let's do this.

Jason Calacanis 21:56 So, there was an article in Vice, I guess, that namechecked the All-In podcast and said young people, instead of wanting to become McKinsey consultants, now want to become members of the All-In podcast and be venture capitalists. I did a little tweet storm that I thought- and I thought it'd be a great topic for us. I- I think for young people going into venture early is not a good idea. I think, generally speaking, 80% of the case- cases. And I think starting your own company or joining a high-growth company or maybe joining a well-run large company, or even joining a poorly run large company so you learn what not to do, are all better things to do in your 20s. Learn, be in the trenches. But I'm curious what you think, Sax-

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:42 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 22:42 ... about this issue, because we came to venture and investing in our 40s, I believe, you know, both of us angel investors, and then both of us having fun. So, what are you- advising a young person who's listening to the podcast coming out of gr- business school or whatever.

Guest 22:55 Yeah, I agree with that. Um, I think the main, uh, value prop that a VC has to offer a founder is advice. And if you've never walked in the founder's shoes before, if you've never founded a company or at least had a significant operating role, how are you in a position to offer them advice? Now, I think there was a period of time during the bull market where people stopped thinking that way, stopped thinking that advice was the model. VCs started competing on the base of who could be the biggest cheerleader for the founder, who could offer the most sort of positive emotional support-

Jason Calacanis 23:30 Largest valuation.

Guest 23:32 ... or the biggest valuation or least governance. Um, the idea of being completely passive, not taking a board seat was actually sold to founders as a positive for them, that, like, "We'll invest and we'll just, like, stay completely out of the way." And all of those ideas sounded really good when the market was booming and everything was up and to the right. But now, we're in a situation in which we're going through two years of intense turmoil, and a lot of companies aren't gonna make it. A lot of companies are restructuring. A lot of companies are gonna take down rounds. And actually being able to tap your board for advice on how to get through a rough patch actually is pretty important. You realize now that, like, the uninvolved passive investor, that was not-... a, a positive value prop. That was an excuse for not having a value prop. And I think at times like this, it's really important to have VCs who've been around the block, who saw the last downturn, who ideally could have warned you that it was coming.

Jason Calacanis 24:31 Like we did on this pod for 18 months.

Guest 24:32 Like we did repeatedly for, you know-

Jason Calacanis 24:34 Yes.

Guest 24:34 ... a year.

Jason Calacanis 24:34 18 months, yeah. (laughs)

Guest 24:36 And so, yeah, I think that we're now seeing the correction. And I, I fundamentally agree with your analysis that there are too many people who joined the ranks of VC who fundamentally didn't have a value prop. And that's why, I mean, at our firm, we require that everyone who joins the investment team have operating experience, and ideally founder experience, uh, because that is ultimately what you're gonna offer founders.

Jason Calacanis 24:57 Chamath, was too much of this people LARPing, live action role playing, VC with just absolutely no idea how this works? And now, what happens to those, you know, actor VCs who really are faced with portfolios that are upside down and they really have no idea how to weather a storm? It's, this has been a hard 18 months, let's be honest.

David Sacks 25:21 Well, I think that it was a symptom of s- just the fact that there was a lot of free money in the system. And I don't know, the outcome is gonna be pretty basic, which is that they're gonna lose money for their limited partners. And those limited partners, if they're not totally stupid, will never give these people money again. And these people will need to just find a new job. And I don't say that in a celebratory way, it's just a very practical ones and zeros monetary assessment of the facts. Look, I think that the weird thing that has happened is that it became, like, this kind of fun thing to be able to say you were doing. A lot of people used to moonlight and do it on the side. Then there were all these services that would allow you to basically, like, abstract the job. But the only thing that I would just qualify your statement, 'cause I think what you're saying is, like, 90% right, but I don't think that's where the craziest outcome returns have come from. Because if you look at the two people that are really, or the three people that have really generated just gargantuan home run dr- returns on a consistent basis, one of them, for example, like Mike Moritz, really didn't have those bona fides operationally. But I think that what Mike pr- h- probably has, and I'm saying this not knowing him, is a preternatural, like, judge of psychology, I think. I think he's an incredibly qualified people judger. And there are people like that. Now, he's an outlier in order to do that, but the rest of us have to kind of, to your point, do with what we have, which is like, "Here's our experience and our maturity, and you know, we're telling you what we think." So I'm really excited actually for this wave to kind of crash on shore, because the number of founders that are gonna get screwed over by folks that don't know what they're talking about is very high.

Jason Calacanis 27:03 Yeah.

David Sacks 27:03 And that needs to come to an end as quickly as possible.

Guest 27:05 Free bird, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 27:06 Yeah, I don't think it's just Mike Moritz. I think that there's a class of successful venture capitalists. Bill Gurley's a great example. Like, he was an analyst. Danny Reimer at Index Ventures was an investment analyst. Um-

Jason Calacanis 27:18 Fred Wilson. Um...

Chamath Palihapitiya 27:20 Fred Wilson.

Jason Calacanis 27:20 Yeah. Well, a lifetime VC, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 27:22 Um, and, and Moritz, John Doerr. I mean, John Doerr had some-

Jason Calacanis 27:25 Uh, Doerr worked at Intel.

Chamath Palihapitiya 27:25 Yeah, he worked at Intel. Um, but there's, there are folks who have an incredible analytical capacity, and that analytical capacity translates into incredible selection capability. That selection doesn't necessarily mean that they are gonna necessarily be the best advisors. And I'm not saying that any of those folks are bad advisors. But there are some venture investors, like Founders Fund is very vocal about this and very public about this, that their objective is not to be your partner in helping you make decisions and run your company and recruit people and all the other sort of rigamarole that many VCs go out and tout. They are there to pick the best founders. And the best founders don't need the VC to be successful. And their job then is to have incredible selection capacity. So if they can select the best founders and get out of their way, they've made a lot of money and their returns are unbelievable. And then there are some VCs who are really incredible partners to their founders and their objective. Josh Kopelman at First Round built an entire firm around this practice, which is to partner very closely with founders and to build support and capabilities. Andreessen Horowitz was built on the same sort of concept.

Jason Calacanis 28:30 Closest to Mike.

Chamath Palihapitiya 28:30 That they would, that they would roll all of their fees into building operating support and capacity to support founders and support companies. Both firms have obviously done well in their own right. Um, and so I don't know if there's necessarily one breed that predicts success when it comes to successful venture capital. I will say from my own personal experience, I worked as an investment banker for my first two years out of undergrad. I, you know, worked, I had a science background. I worked in, a short stint in private equity, I worked at Google, I did corp dev and M&A there. I started a company, ran it, sold it, did that with another business where I was on the board. So, you know, I've, I've been on a couple of different places around the table that, you know, I think have given me the ability to, to provide advice. I don't know if I necessarily have the same skill set that the team at Founders Fund and, um, Mike Moritz and others might have, had this astute extraordinary ability to spot founders a- and bring them in. So I think everyone needs to kind of recognize what they do bring to the table, be, uh, very clear about what that is. And I think to your point, there has just been an incredible bull market over the last 15 years. Since 2008, more money has... I, I heard an incredible statistic, by the way. Um, I don't want to get it wrong, so maybe we should fact check me after this, from someone at your wedding, uh, who I was talking to for a long time. And he was like, (laughs) he was like, "Basically, the top 1% of VCs didn't beat what would have happened if you just bought the top five public tech companies and, you know, effectively did a rebalance over the past 15 years." The bull market and the, um, the aggregation of value in technology has largely been 50/50 to public and private.

Jason Calacanis 30:01 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:01 So, you could have just bought a few stocks and held onto them and beat all of the VCs over the last 15 years. Even though a bunch of VCs have made good money and their IRR looks like 12%, but you have to beat-

David Sacks 30:11 No, the risk adjusted returns on venture-

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:13 Negative.

David Sacks 30:13 And this is not to throw shade at even all of those people that you mentioned, are fucking terrible.... like, you should not have invested in any of those.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:22 Right.

David Sacks 30:22 Because there's no way to tun it in any of those funds 'cause you get a small allocation, one fund does well-

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:27 But, he-

David Sacks 30:27 ... three funds do crappy.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:29 ... here's what he said. O- over the past 10 years, or 15 years, I forgot the number, we've seen the public market cap of these top tech companies grow from 1 trillion to 10 trillion. That's a 10X.

David Sacks 30:40 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:40 So all you had to do was buy those and you would have made 10X-

David Sacks 30:42 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:42 ... and that works out to north of 25% IRR.

David Sacks 30:44 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:45 And there's very few VCs that have been able to beat 25% IRR. They assume now, he was telling me his model shows, that over the next 10 years, it'll be roughly 70/30. Um, so it'll be about 30%-

David Sacks 30:55 And-

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:55 ... will accrue. And, and they think over the next 10 years, it's gonna go from 10 trillion to 25 trillion.

David Sacks 30:59 Can I just say-

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:59 Which is still a great return-

David Sacks 31:00 ... can I, just to, just, just to build on this?

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:01 ... but it shows how much of a hurdle there is in venture to be successful.

David Sacks 31:04 I started the business in 2011, so now this is the 12th or 13th year. Just how hard this game is. I had about a 31, 32% gross IRR going into last year, and then my IRR fell off a cliff because I couldn't get in... obviously there's like, there's no money to distribute.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:21 Yeah. W- where there's nothing to distribute, yeah.

David Sacks 31:22 So, my IRRs start to decay, and then I had this really, really fucked up choice. I have to start selling stuff earlier than I would have otherwise to get the money back out.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:31 Right.

David Sacks 31:31 So to your point-

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:32 Right.

David Sacks 31:32 ... it is-

Jason Calacanis 31:32 Now, it takes courage.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:33 Yeah.

David Sacks 31:33 Th- then it, it's a really tough game over long periods of time.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:37 Return's getting compressed. Yeah.

David Sacks 31:38 A really tough game.

Jason Calacanis 31:39 I, I think there's also something going on, you know, in the United States and society where there are some idealized jobs. We talked about SAG's elites, surplus elites, and I, I want to dovetail this with what's happening in Hollywood, the writer's strike, um, and the actor's strike. And I was looking at it, there's s- some unbelievable number of actors in SAG, some unbelievable number of writers. They all make, uh, just incredibly small amounts of money, uh, on average. And obviously there's some big fish who do well, but it does seem like there's too many people who want too many of these (laughs) idealized jobs. A- and venture is one of those. And I, I just would like young people to understand also, be careful what you wish for. This job has seemed easy, just like it might seem easy for Tom Cruise or Christopher Nolan when you see them h- or Tarantino. What you don't see is all of the people who tried to become Tarantino, who tried to become, you know, Tom Cruise. And there are far too-

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:37 And it takes 10 to 15 years before they realize that they're not.

Jason Calacanis 32:39 Yes. A- and they did not actually have the fundamental skills or the work ethic that is required to become Tarantino. I listened to Tarantino's podcast. He does a... Have you heard the Video Archives podcast yet? You have to get on this. It's him and h- he's the co-writer of, um... Who did he write Pulp Fiction with? Roger Avary.

David Sacks 32:57 Roger Avary.

Jason Calacanis 32:57 So him and Roger Avary, it's a... My favorite podcast right now. They just talk about films. Their knowledge of films is so unbelievable and the detail, uh, in which they talk about that i- is so crisp. They finish each other's sentences in the way with maybe you listen to this podcast, you know, we all go, "Oh, Jon Dore. Oh no, he worked at Intel. Oh, this person, yeah, Moritz, he was a journalist." We have a, a deep, deep understanding of this business that comes from 30 years within it, uh, or 20 years. And I think you have to, I know it sounds corny, but you have to pay your dues, you have to put 60, 70 hours in a week to get that elite job. And the problem today, I feel is, and for people who are listening who are young people coming out of schools, if you're not willing to sacrifice 60, 70, 80 hours a week for a decade or two, you're just not going to be successful in that career.

David Sacks 33:49 By the way, and young people push back on this, and I think the simplest way to reframe it is in the following. Do you really think, for example, let's pick NBA basketball. Do you think you would be really interested or find credible that the best player in the NBA only practiced three hours a week? Does that happen?

Jason Calacanis 34:10 Impossible.

David Sacks 34:11 Or do you think they're practicing three hours in the morning and then also three hours in the afternoon and they give up their lives? The most incredible thing that I saw in the NBA was all of these men literally gave up their life to play that game, to perfect it. And that's true for anything. And so I don't understand how whether if you're a filmmaker, whether you want to be an investor, whether you want to be an athlete, whether you want to be an actor, a surgeon, it's just an, like it's an immutable law of physics, l- so just get over it, which is you need to put in tens of thousands of hours. And if you cannot or won't, you should not expect the success and you should not complain.

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:48 And, and also th- the...

David Sacks 34:49 Because it's not free.

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:51 Yeah, th- these, these guys also-

David Sacks 34:52 Do you agree with that or not?

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:53 Yeah, look, I mean, LeBron 20... what was it, 2016 when they came back and won in game seven? 2016?

David Sacks 34:58 Yeah. I don't wanna, I don't wanna-

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:58 2016 Celtics-

Jason Calacanis 34:59 Bad scar tissue.

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:00 Yeah. Right. But, um, the next day they were, you know, his teammates go out and celebrate. You know what LeBron did on Instagram the next day? Posted a photo at 7:00 AM of himself in the gym.

David Sacks 35:08 LeBron was working out.

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:09 Working out. Um, but look, one thing I'll say, LeBron knows what his skill is and he knows what his game is. I think every individual needs to figure out what their skill is and what their game is, and not to find glory in what others have found to be their skill and their game. That there is something that comes from mastering any craft that gives an individual joy and purpose in life. And you see this in basketball, you see it when these athletes really find what they love and they do it-

David Sacks 35:36 Yep.

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:36 ... and they commit to it. And there are things that we each have realized we are good at, and there are things that we've all certainly realized we are not good at. And identifying that and mastering one's craft is the key to any person being successful and happy, I believe-

David Sacks 35:48 I just, just-

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:49 ... versus just assuming that there's a, a thing out there that everyone makes money at and you should go do it.

David Sacks 35:52 Distraction alert. All of our wives are about to go swimming.

Jason Calacanis 35:55 Oh my Lord.

David Sacks 35:55 They're so hot.

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:56 Good Lord. Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 35:57 My Lord.

David Sacks 35:57 Good God.

Jason Calacanis 35:57 Look at my wife. Whoo.

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:00 (laughs)

David Sacks 36:00 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 36:00 Jesus. God almighty, I hit the jackpot. It's beauty and the beast, huh? You can relate, huh?

David Sacks 36:05 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 36:05 Come on.

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:07 Well, we were lying-

Jason Calacanis 36:07 The way I, the way I look at it.

David Sacks 36:08 ... Sock-

Jason Calacanis 36:09 No, socks-

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:09 We were joking at breakfast today, we were like, "My wife must have low self-esteem 'cause she's married to me."

David Sacks 36:13 Sock said the best line, he's like, "If you google Natalie Dompé, you'll find this picture of her holding a tiger b- a lion by the w-"

Jason Calacanis 36:21 Yeah, a lion by the tail.

David Sacks 36:22 ... which is a lot more exciting than holding a Sri Lankan by the schlong. (laughs)

Guest 36:26 (laughs)

36:26 That's a great line. Heyo!

36:28 Heyo. (laughs)

36:30 (laughs)

36:30 I was playing Ed McMahon for Sacks when he did the roast last night.

36:33 (laughs)

36:33 I was his, like, laughing guy. Every time he hit it, I just-

36:37 Oh, my God.

36:37 ... went back to the table.

36:38 You didn't get, uh, Hellmuth off the cliff though. I was waiting for that moment-

36:40 Poor Hellmuth.

36:41 ... where he fell all the way off the cliff.

36:42 Poor Hellmuth.

36:42 I mean-

36:42 Oh, my God.

36:43 He, he, he knows how-

David Sacks 36:44 Even though the story doesn't-

Guest 36:44 I think he knows how-

David Sacks 36:44 You know what happened?

Guest 36:45 Yeah.

David Sacks 36:45 Kat told me what happened. So the, the backstory is Phil Hellmuth is a narcissist. And-

Guest 36:50 (laughs) No, no. The, if you know Phil Hellmuth, you know that.

David Sacks 36:52 Yeah.

Guest 36:52 That's implied.

David Sacks 36:53 And he just cannot give a speech, and so-

Guest 36:54 He's your best friend.

David Sacks 36:55 We all... He's not my best friend. Um- (laughs) Spike that. He's gonna be really upset.

Guest 37:00 Uh-

David Sacks 37:00 (laughs)

Guest 37:00 ... but he's, he, he gives horrible speeches. He- He, you're-

David Sacks 37:03 I mean-

Guest 37:04 You and he are best friends, like Freiberg and I are.

37:05 No, every, every speech.

37:06 (laughs)

37:06 No, Phil, every speech he gives at every event, it's all about himself.

David Sacks 37:10 It's all about himself.

Guest 37:10 That's why we say seven seconds to Phil.

David Sacks 37:12 But it's incredible because it could be-

Guest 37:14 But he goes off the roll every time.

David Sacks 37:14 ... it could be a wedding, a bar mitzvah, a funeral.

Guest 37:16 Doesn't matter, birthday.

David Sacks 37:16 It doesn't matter.

Guest 37:17 I don't know. But, but in our chat-

37:18 (laughs)

37:18 ... so when, when Shamas said, "Okay, Phil's gonna give a speech," Phil's like, "Of course I'm gonna give a speech."

37:23 (laughs)

37:23 "Every speech I give is amazing."

37:26 But he knows.

David Sacks 37:26 (laughs)

Guest 37:26 "I kill it every time."

37:27 10 out of 10, I bring in $70 million *******.

37:28 No, then he goes, then he goes, "The last event, I gave a speech. It brought the house down. Everyone was laughing. I killed it." It was Doyle Brunson's funeral.

37:39 (laughs) Oh, my God. No, dude.

37:41 Like, "What?"

37:41 "What?"

37:42 "You killed it at a funeral?"

37:43 (laughs)

David Sacks 37:44 So I asked, I asked Hellmuth to do, to do this toast. And I was like, okay, well, we'll do four of them, but I thought if we start with Hellmuth, it'll just be so bad.

Guest 37:52 Yeah, you bought him out early.

David Sacks 37:53 Right. Yeah, you bought him out early, and then-

Guest 37:54 Yeah.

David Sacks 37:54 ... the rest of you guys-

Guest 37:55 Just set the bar.

David Sacks 37:56 ... boom. Uh, but-

Guest 37:56 Yeah, it was the right sequence.

David Sacks 37:57 But Sacks crushed it.

Guest 37:58 Sacks just nailed it.

38:00 Sacks crushed it.

David Sacks 38:02 Sacks (censored) crushed, crushed it.

Guest 38:04 Deep state (censored) .

38:04 Deep state (censored) .

David Sacks 38:05 Deep state, deep state (censored) crushed it.

Guest 38:05 Deep state ******* crushed it.

38:06 I think, I think we're all still amazed that (censored) made it up the stairs. You know, it was-

David Sacks 38:09 (laughs)

Guest 38:09 (laughs)

38:09 (laughs)

David Sacks 38:09 It was a hike to get up to that console.

Guest 38:10 It was 400 steps to that, uh, yeah. Um, but he looks good. He lost too much.

David Sacks 38:14 (laughs)

Guest 38:14 He wasn't even out of breath.

38:15 He's looking good.

38:15 It was pretty impressive.

38:16 Yeah.

38:16 Well, this has been a great episode of The All

Guest 38:18 In Pod.

38:18 Did anybody see Oppenheimer yet?

38:20 No.

38:20 I'm so excited.

David Sacks 38:21 I, I didn't really see it.

Guest 38:21 It's, it's gonna be a Barbenheimer double feature.

38:24 Barbenheimer, Barbenheimer.

David Sacks 38:24 In honor of the Barbenheimer wedding.

Guest 38:26 Yeah. I'm not-

38:27 (laughs)

38:27 ... I'm not Barbenheimering it. I, I, I'm good.

David Sacks 38:28 (laughs)

Guest 38:28 That's a good one, the Barbenheimer one.

38:30 I wanna see it on IMAX.

38:31 'Cause no one-

38:31 I, I think we sh-

38:32 No one had a... Nolan's like, so about 70 millimeter prints. He's like, "You have to watch it in 70 millimeter."

38:35 Do you know the Metreon, uh, Metreon in-

38:37 In the city.

38:38 Is it?

38:38 That's-

38:38 So we should just rent the theater and invite some fans.

38:40 Or just go. Yeah, I mean, we should do that. That's actually a great idea.

38:42 No, we should just rent the... Let's rent it.

38:43 This week.

38:44 I've rented it before. It's, I think it's sold out until August 6th.

38:46 I have very limited time. Oh, the theater is.

38:48 We just have to call them and say, "Hey, can we rent the thing?"

38:50 They'll do a show.

38:51 "Here's 20 dimes."

38:52 I once went to a showing of, um, Interstellar there, and Christopher Nolan came and spoke, and got to meet him and speak to him afterwards. He's a very soft-spoken guy, and he's not very sociable. He doesn't... You know, sort of like Sacks, he doesn't wanna make eye contact and actually talk with you.

39:06 (laughs)

39:06 But, you know, we challenged him.

39:07 Are you making fun of people with Asperger's?

39:09 (laughs)

39:10 (laughs)

39:10 But he was great. I mean, I think- Hello, pot, it's kettle calling.

39:13 (laughs)

39:15 (laughs)

39:16 (laughs)

39:17 I will say, um, he's-

39:19 Ugh.

39:19 ... he's, he's, what, top three filmmakers of our time? Top four?

David Sacks 39:22 There is a very, very-

Guest 39:22 Uh, for me, it's Ridley Scott.

39:24 Uh.

39:25 Tarantino, Nolan.

David Sacks 39:27 There was a very funny moment-

Guest 39:28 Where, where's your list, Sacks, right now?

David Sacks 39:30 You gotta put Scorsese on that list.

Guest 39:31 Oh, right, of course. So that,

39:32 Uh, P.T. Anderson.

39:33 No. No P.T. Anderson.

39:35 Denis Villeneuve.

39:37 Hit or miss.

David Sacks 39:38 Woody Allen? Can we mention that name?

Guest 39:40 I mean...

39:41 Can't say that. Bleep.

David Sacks 39:43 (laughs)

Guest 39:43 It's hard to watch now. It's hard to watch. The whole-

David Sacks 39:45 I, I like, uh-

Guest 39:46 ... Sui thing makes it too hard.

David Sacks 39:46 I like, uh, (censored) . (laughs)

Guest 39:50 Oh, my God.

39:50 Oh, my God.

David Sacks 39:52 (censored)

Guest 39:52 (laughs)

David Sacks 39:52 No, Nick, Nick, bleep those out.

Guest 39:54 (laughs) Blah, blah, blah.

David Sacks 39:54 There was a very funny moment on the, the first, the first dinner.

Guest 39:59 Yeah.

David Sacks 39:59 You know, we did this great thing. You can... Nick, bleep out the names. When (censored) sat down, everybody's like... And I was waiting for David to sit.

Guest 40:08 Yeah.

David Sacks 40:09 And he and (censored) just keep talking and talking.

Guest 40:12 Yeah.

David Sacks 40:12 Talking and talking. And finally Nat went to, like, "Sit the fuck down right now," and had to get this fucking thing going.

Guest 40:18 So who do you got? You got Scorsese, of course.

David Sacks 40:20 Yeah, I mean, if you're talking about, like, currently alive filmmakers, I think that-

Guest 40:23 Active filmmakers. The back.

David Sacks 40:24 Yeah, the list you mentioned is pretty good. Um, I'd have to think about it if we're missing anybody.

Guest 40:29 Yeah, Ridley Scott's up there for you.

David Sacks 40:31 Yeah. Re- yeah, Ridley Scott. Yeah. I mean, he's still making- Christopher Nolan is pretty excellent. He's very productive too.

Guest 40:36 That's the thing about Ridley Scott-

40:37 I like, I like, I like the Michael Bay-

40:37 ... every two years clockwork.

40:39 ... versatility. (laughs) Michael Bay.

David Sacks 40:40 I don't, I don't know if Ridley Scott's my number one, but, um... I met Michael Bay in Costa Rica.

Guest 40:48 Can you... Did you... That's it? Uh.

David Sacks 40:48 That's the beginning and the end of the story. That's all I got. (laughs)

Guest 40:50 Can you... Did you ask him for the $30 back for Transformers? (laughs)

David Sacks 40:55 No, I mean, like, I, I didn't particularly know who he was, but he's a, he's a very nice guy.

Guest 40:57 I cannot watch any of his films. I cannot watch any of those.

40:59 Yeah, he says a little too much.

David Sacks 40:59 He's, like, a very nice guy. Yeah. I don't, I don't know.

Guest 41:01 I'm sure he's great. Um, so, uh, also on the docket-

David Sacks 41:04 He's got, he's got Napoleon coming out. The trailer looks amazing.

Guest 41:06 Amazing. Well, anything with Joaquin Phoenix.

41:08 Mike, Michael Bay is making Napoleon?

41:09 No, no, no.

David Sacks 41:10 No, no, no, uh, Ridley Scott.

Guest 41:11 Oh, Ridley Scott. Yeah.

David Sacks 41:11 With Joaquin Phoenix playing Napoleon. It's kind of interesting.

Guest 41:15 I hate to go deep into the, um... Do you guys wanna talk about Zirt Bad Behavior, or do you wanna talk about the resolution of this Hollywood stuff and what it means writ large, in terms of AI?

David Sacks 41:23 Well, the Hollywood stuff, look-

Guest 41:25 I think it's fascinating.

David Sacks 41:25 ... I had tweeted about this a couple weeks ago. My observations on this were twofold. One is that it's gonna have the exact opposite effect that they want. If what they want... If what the writers and the Actors Guild want is to show the owners of the studios how valuable they are, the problem is that this moves the owners and the studios one step closer into the hands of tools that will disintermediate the actors and the writers.

Guest 41:52 They'll embrace that technology faster.

David Sacks 41:53 They'll, they'll embrace the AI tools that you guys have talked about. You were showing something around even, like, yesterday or whatever. So, like, the point is, like, I don't see it as very effective. And then my second thought is, like, I just think unions in general are probably not a very effective way to get these concessions anymore, versus the tax that the union members pay. And you can just see that in terms of, like, the number of people in unions are just kind of decaying pretty quickly. The wage gains are pretty de minimis. It's just not an effective mechanism of negotiation.

Guest 42:25 Sacks, the unions are a way for average...

Jason Calacanis 42:28 ... performers to fight to get a little bit more, but-

Guest 42:32 Right.

Jason Calacanis 42:33 ... it, it's the antithesis of having a meritocracy and people fighting for their best possible pay. And so the conundrum I have is, I'm seeing all these Marvel actors, superhero actors getting dropped off at the protests, and they're complaining about Bob Iger making 25 million-

Guest 42:49 Mm-hmm.

Jason Calacanis 42:50 ... when Tom Cruise or, you know, Robert Downey Jr., uh, pick the person, I'm not singling anybody out, but those people who got to the top of the heap after 20, 30, 40 years in the business are getting paid 50 million a picture.

Guest 43:02 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 43:02 100 million a picture of back ends. And, and so what's your take on what's going on here? Because, it, there... it seems that, I, I don't wanna say hypocritical, but it feels like they're talking out of both sides of their mouth. They want to have an auction to the highest bidder-

Guest 43:18 Mm-hmm.

Jason Calacanis 43:18 ... for these incredibly talented writers, directors, producers, as it should be, but then they also wanna fight for the average.

Guest 43:25 Right. Well, look-

Jason Calacanis 43:25 It's confusing to me.

Guest 43:26 ... so, some of the union demands, I think, are reasonable, and I understand why they want them. So, for example, I think they are arguing for more residuals for, like you said, the kind of lower level performers, so that they can get healthcare. Okay, I-

Jason Calacanis 43:38 The average ones, yeah.

Guest 43:39 ... yeah, so I, I can understand that. At the same time, they're demanding that writers' rooms not use AI software.

Jason Calacanis 43:45 Which they're already doing.

Guest 43:46 Yeah, which, it's just crazy, because-

Jason Calacanis 43:48 Yeah.

Guest 43:48 ... AI is gonna be incorporated into all software. So, to not be able to use the latest features of whatever, Word or Google Docs or whatever screenwriting software-

Jason Calacanis 43:58 Yes.

Guest 43:58 ... that's like the king who ordered the tides to stop, you know? This is-

Jason Calacanis 44:00 Yeah, good luck.

Guest 44:01 ... just the march of technology. It's not gonna work. So I think that's, like, really off base. So I, I can sympathize with some of the demands. Other ones, I think, are hard to see. In terms of your point about the economics, I mean, look, the, the basic problem with, with Hollywood is it's a winner-take-all business. I mean, you've got a few actors who become big stars. This is true, actually, with all the creative industries is they're power law businesses. You know, JK Rowling makes a billion dollars as an author that 10,000th author or whatever makes, like, almost nothing.

Jason Calacanis 44:31 Yeah, the thousandth fantasy-

Guest 44:32 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 44:32 ... person makes a living.

Guest 44:33 Yeah, exactly.

Jason Calacanis 44:34 They're living month-to-month.

Guest 44:34 Can't even make a... yeah, can't even make a living. And the reason for that, by the way, is because there's a lot of people willing to do it for free. Humans are fundamentally creative. There's a lot of people willing to be actors for free or-

Jason Calacanis 44:45 Sure.

Guest 44:45 ... on a subsistence wage-

Jason Calacanis 44:46 Or writers.

Guest 44:47 ... or write or whatever creatively, because they're willing to do their art for free.

Jason Calacanis 44:51 Podcasters.

Guest 44:52 Right. And so the reality is, the reason Hollywood doesn't have to pay these sort of the e- entry level actors very much is there's a lot of people willing to do that job.

Jason Calacanis 45:00 There's too many people who want that job.

Guest 45:01 A lot of people wanting to do that job.

Chamath Palihapitiya 45:02 And it doesn't need to be in a structured production system anywo- anymore. I- you guys saw the latest, uh, Disney earnings release, and Iger said, "We are going to consider selling NatGeo and a bunch of other channels." There may actually be a spinoff, because content creation for that mid-tier or that tail no longer makes sense-

Jason Calacanis 45:21 Not viable.

Chamath Palihapitiya 45:22 ... and is profitable because there's so-

Jason Calacanis 45:23 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 45:23 ... much content being generated by this very long tail that's accruing a lot of the eyeballs and a lot of the hours of consumers' mindset and time. I, I think that there's a big disrupt-

Guest 45:32 Yeah, well this... just to... can I connect that idea?

Chamath Palihapitiya 45:34 Yeah.

Guest 45:34 So, we were talking earlier about career choices. So first of all, it's, it's... I agree with what you guys said about the time commitment you have to make, but it's not really about time per se. It's about your obsession level. Can you be obsessed with something so that 60, 70 hours a week feels like nothing to you because you're so immersed, you're so obsessed with it?

Jason Calacanis 45:51 Right.

Guest 45:52 The way that Tarantino and Avery are obsessed with classic films and have the whole database in their head. So if you wanna pursue one of these careers in a winner-take-all space, like writing, like acting or whatever, you better just be completely obsessed.

Jason Calacanis 46:04 You gotta be all in.

Guest 46:05 Yeah, you gotta be all in. I'd say furthermore, you, you c-

Chamath Palihapitiya 46:08 And be unique, like what makes you novel.

Guest 46:10 Yeah, I mean-

Jason Calacanis 46:10 Even if you are all in, you still have to have luck-

Guest 46:13 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 46:13 ... and skill and-

Guest 46:14 And yeah, and furthermore, you have to know where the bar is. So, I think a lot of people... this is one of the things I noticed when I was producing a movie is, a lot of people look at, like, the worst actor or the worst screenwriter and say, "I'm better than that person, so I'm gonna make it."

Jason Calacanis 46:28 Oh, yeah.

Guest 46:28 But your bar is not the worst person who's made it. Your bar is-

Jason Calacanis 46:33 Or the average.

Guest 46:33 ... the best person who hasn't made it. That's the person you're really competing against.

Jason Calacanis 46:36 Next up.

Guest 46:37 It's the next up. It's the person... You're going on auditions, and you're competing against someone who hasn't made it yet, but they're amazing. And you don't necessarily know where that bar is, 'cause it's much harder to see-

Jason Calacanis 46:46 Yeah.

Guest 46:46 ... but that's where the bar really is.

Chamath Palihapitiya 46:48 Right. And I think, look, I think there's also a big disruption as-

Jason Calacanis 46:51 That's really well said.

Chamath Palihapitiya 46:51 Yeah, totally. And as we extend the long tail of consumer content creation into what is effectively now the infinite tail of AI generation, AI-generated content creation, it is gonna totally disrupt and change the game of media, of content, generally speaking. We're getting to a point now where you can effectively tie together rendering engines with scripting, with scene definition, with directorial, uh, lines. All the stuff that goes into pre-production and production, um, can be generated, uh, through, through AI, through scripting, and then tuned and tweaked by a human. But ultimately, it increases the scale. Like all technologies do, it increases leverage for humans. And we could see 100 times more films come out, each of which costs 1/100 the cost. You know, one of the best production companies in LA is Blumhouse. You know, they make-

Jason Calacanis 47:39 Horror films for $2 million, $3 million.

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:41 They make, th- they make Get Out. They make them for two million bucks, and they make a bunch of them because they cost so little to make. And if any one of them hits, they make 180 million bucks or 200 million bucks at the box office. It's a fantastic business model.

Jason Calacanis 47:50 Genre films.

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:51 It's very much a unique model in Hollywood, and it's really changed the game quite a bit. And I think we're gonna see something similar emerge because of generative AI and the tooling. What-

Guest 47:59 Wha-

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:59 And then people start to question-

Guest 48:00 What is it called? (beep) What is it called?

Chamath Palihapitiya 48:02 Uh, the... oh. But, um, I... look-

Guest 48:06 Oh. See, that, that raises a good point there.

Chamath Palihapitiya 48:06 ... one, one, one thing, one thing I do wanna say, I do think that there's also a change in Hollywood that's gonna be driven, as we talked about before, by the ability to generate personalized film, personalized content, um, rather than one piece of content for everyone where you have to make blockbusters and everyone watches it. There is a question, however, of culture. And culture is, you know, shared experience, stories and beliefs. Shared experience, stories and beliefs can still be realized through personalized media, through personalized, um, content generation. Think about, you know, an old narrative, an old tale that was told-... you know, via, uh, people speaking to each other-

Jason Calacanis 48:40 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 48:40 ... around a campfire. The, the ethics and the morals of the story are still there, but everyone tells it a little bit differently. I think that's what we may end up seeing Hollywood production or AI-generated production-

Jason Calacanis 48:49 Did you guys see this, um-

Chamath Palihapitiya 48:50 ... rendering, which is everyone tweaks their content in their own personal way. They consume it in their own way. But the Hollywood studios, how much of a role do they ultimately end up playing? And does this start to go 10 times more what we've seen in YouTube? Content consumption goes way up, and the number of folks that are contributing to it goes way up by 10 or 100 X.

Jason Calacanis 49:07 I, I think this is one of the fundamental things that the unions and Hollywood have not yet grokked completely, which is, they're not fighting each other. They're fighting TikTok, YouTube, podcasts, and people making their own content. That taking- They know it. They know it. Yeah. They're fighting Jimmy Donaldson. They're fighting MrBeast. They're fighting MrBeast. They're fighting, but it's sports.

David Sacks 49:24 They're fighting, they're fighting each other over the last scraps of a dying model.

Jason Calacanis 49:27 Fighting part of sports. Exactly. Yeah. And, and I think they need to get in same-

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:30 They're fighting KSI. Like, they're fighting these-

Jason Calacanis 49:30 They're fighting the people that spend two hours a week listening to us rant on about stuff, right?

David Sacks 49:33 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 49:33 Like...

David Sacks 49:34 They're fighting the Botez sisters. Like-

Jason Calacanis 49:34 Well, that's two less hours.

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:36 That's what I'm saying. Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 49:36 It's two less hours of broadcast TV. And then MrBeast, these kids watch his videos five times. They watch each one five times.

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:42 40 minutes a week.

David Sacks 49:43 By the way, he's probably the only person in recent memory that has rebuilt, uh, event-based viewership. Because people know Saturday mornings at noon Eastern Time-

Jason Calacanis 49:53 Yeah.

David Sacks 49:54 ... is when these videos drop. Hundreds of millions of people-

Jason Calacanis 49:56 It's appointment television, yeah.

David Sacks 49:57 It's appointment television. Now, back ... By the way, when you hear, you know, the story about MrBeast, that's a guy that's been doing it since he was 13 years old.

Jason Calacanis 50:05 Studying it.

David Sacks 50:06 He's 24 years old. So that's 11 years where he's literally only lived and breathed everything-

Jason Calacanis 50:11 High energy iteration.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:12 And in the laboratory.

David Sacks 50:12 High energy iteration in the lab.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:14 Yeah.

David Sacks 50:14 Down to the very pixel, right? Like, when he, for example, like-

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:17 And the cuts. You, you watch his cuts on his videos.

David Sacks 50:20 'Member, 'member he, member he told us about, like, thumbnails?

Jason Calacanis 50:21 Yes.

David Sacks 50:22 He has an entire PhD thesis that he's earned just on thumbnails.

Jason Calacanis 50:25 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:25 Right, right.

Jason Calacanis 50:26 And that's a level of commit. I think what Hollywood needs to do, just to, to put it out there, is the, the leadership in Hollywood gets compensated on a corporate level, and then they come up with this, you know, pay and sometimes residuals, sometimes not, and scraps for the talent. I would encourage them to read something like, uh, an autobiography by Kurosawa and study the Toho system where everybody was aligned inside the company. If I'm running Disney, I'm hiring the top 200 or 300 writers, putting them full time on staff, giving them equity, and getting everybody rowing in the right direction. They do not have time to fuck around. They need to be in alignment, making great content. But then the- And the incentive structure matters. If Bob Iger's getting compensated by stock options, the actors, Robert Downey Jr., who's the guy, the incredible director of Swingers and Ma-

David Sacks 51:15 Jon Favreau. Favreau. I, I was talking to Favreau at an event, and I was like, "How much, like, equity in Disney did you get for doing Mandalorian and, like, launching Disney+ for them?" And he's like, "Zero." Zero. By the way-

Jason Calacanis 51:27 And I'm like, "Why do they not-"

David Sacks 51:29 Well, if you, if you look at-

Jason Calacanis 51:29 "... just back up $100 million of equity?"

David Sacks 51:30 ... if you, no, but if you look ... And this is what's crazy. If you look at the biggest content producers of that older generation-

Jason Calacanis 51:36 Yeah.

David Sacks 51:36 ... they locked up the equity. You know, Spielberg owns equity in the movies that he made.

Jason Calacanis 51:40 Paramount.

David Sacks 51:40 George Lucas owns equity in the movies that he made.

Jason Calacanis 51:41 He owns part of the studios.

Chamath Palihapitiya 51:42 Chris- did you see the deal Christopher Nolan cut on, um, on Oppenheimer?

David Sacks 51:46 No.

Chamath Palihapitiya 51:46 I think he gets, uh, 20% of the gross off the first dollar.

Jason Calacanis 51:49 That's absurd.

Chamath Palihapitiya 51:50 Yeah.

David Sacks 51:50 Wow.

Chamath Palihapitiya 51:50 And he got $100 million budget and 100 million marketing commit, uh, on the, on the, the deal.

Jason Calacanis 51:56 Uh, Joker was, uh, Tod- Todd Phillips.

David Sacks 51:58 Yeah, Todd Phillips. So, yeah.

Jason Calacanis 51:59 Well, this is a perfect example.

David Sacks 52:00 I was talking to Todd Phillips actually. Um, I got to have dinner with him last summer.

Jason Calacanis 52:03 Great guy, yeah.

David Sacks 52:03 Yeah, great guy. And he waived his fee on Joker to take a big chunk of the equity.

Jason Calacanis 52:10 Because-

David Sacks 52:10 Todd Phillips is very smart.

Jason Calacanis 52:11 ... he did that on The Hangover.

David Sacks 52:12 Right.

Jason Calacanis 52:12 And he owned the IP of The Hangover. He owned the sequels. And Hangover I and II, amazing. Hangover 3, uh, you can miss it.

Chamath Palihapitiya 52:20 Blah. Yeah.

David Sacks 52:21 Todd Phillips-

Jason Calacanis 52:21 But he made more, I think, on Hangover 3.

David Sacks 52:24 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 52:24 And he got all those guys, Galifianakis, et cetera. They got their biggest payday on number three.

David Sacks 52:29 Right.

Jason Calacanis 52:29 Y- you have to craft a deal where you have equity. The other crazy deal-

David Sacks 52:32 But the, the studio, the studio was less bullish than he was on both Hangover and Joker, because they were both really-

Jason Calacanis 52:36 Which shows you how incompetent they are.

David Sacks 52:37 ... unusual movies. So they allowed him-

Jason Calacanis 52:40 Yes.

David Sacks 52:40 ... to take equity in exchange for giving back his fee.

Jason Calacanis 52:42 They're like, "You only want to spend 50 million on a superhero film? That's never gonna work."

David Sacks 52:46 Right.

Jason Calacanis 52:46 And then he's like, yeah, it made a billion. Joker made a billion.

David Sacks 52:49 Right.

Jason Calacanis 52:49 The Flash-

David Sacks 52:49 But they thought it was too dark. Yeah, he-

Jason Calacanis 52:51 Underestimating audiences-

David Sacks 52:52 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 52:52 ... a- as always in Hollywood.

David Sacks 52:53 Todd, I'll tell you a very funny poker story with Todd Phillips. Do you wanna hear it?

Chamath Palihapitiya 52:56 Sorry, sorry. Are you gonna keep your Disney stock?

Jason Calacanis 52:57 Uh, right now, I'm gonna ride it out. I think their IP collection is amazing. I think there's a chance that, you know, depending on how, uh, the FTC winds up being run over the long term, that Disney could be, um, selling pieces of that business. And I think that it could become an acquisition target itself at some point.

David Sacks 53:15 You wanna hear a Todd Phillips poker story?

Jason Calacanis 53:16 I play poker with him. Yeah, he's, uh, he's fun.

David Sacks 53:18 Todd Phillips is, is a very, very disciplined poker player.

Jason Calacanis 53:21 Yeah.

David Sacks 53:22 You know, he's got like a stop-loss. He hits the stop-loss, he's done. And he's very funny and jokes around, you know, busts balls, whatever. And there was a while where he would play in the big game-

Jason Calacanis 53:34 Oh.

David Sacks 53:34 ... in LA with us. And he didn't say much. He was very focused and tight as right. And then, he did this deal, and then Hangover 3 comes out.

Jason Calacanis 53:41 (laughs)

David Sacks 53:41 And all of a sudden, you know, he's got chirping chips.

Jason Calacanis 53:44 (laughs)

David Sacks 53:45 I- He's splashing the pot? I bust Phillips in a pot. And he looks at me, and he called me Slumdog Billionaire (laughs) after the movie.

Chamath Palihapitiya 53:54 (laughs) That stuck.

David Sacks 53:54 And then the guys at the table thought it was so funny 'cause that movie, Slumdog Millionaire, had just come out.

Jason Calacanis 53:58 Yeah.

David Sacks 53:59 So then they all started calling me Slummy (laughs) in Slumdog. It took me a year-

Jason Calacanis 54:03 That's gonna stick.

David Sacks 54:04 It took me a year for them to get ... stop calling me that.

Jason Calacanis 54:06 Yeah, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:06 Pretty

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:07 great.

David Sacks 54:07 On the union thing, I'll tell you a story. So recently, it was just announced that Anchor Steam shut down. Anchor Steam was this beer, this native beer in San Francisco that's been around forever.

Jason Calacanis 54:16 Japanese brewery bought them, right?

David Sacks 54:18 It was bought by Sapporo several years ago. And-

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:20 An- Anchor Steam shut down?

David Sacks 54:21 Anchor Steam shut down.

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:22 You're kidding me.

David Sacks 54:22 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:23 I used to go there all the time-

David Sacks 54:24 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:24 ... for, like, work events. You'd do, like, an off-site there and go to the brewery. It's in, uh-

David Sacks 54:27 Yeah. It was, like, one of the original microbrews.

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:29 Potrero Hill. Yeah, fantastic.

Jason Calacanis 54:30 Iconic.

David Sacks 54:30 Uh, award-winning beer.

Jason Calacanis 54:31 Great beer.

David Sacks 54:31 Iconic. Well, it's out of business now.

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:33 You're kidding.

David Sacks 54:33 And the reason is-

Jason Calacanis 54:35 Let me guess.

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:35 (laughs)

David Sacks 54:35 Well, it was losing money. And you wanna know why, is because three years ago, the workers all voted to unionize.

Guest 54:41 ... there were only something like 60 workers, 62 workers. And three years ago, they vote to unionize, and they voted themselves big pay increases.

Jason Calacanis 54:48 Yeah.

Guest 54:49 And so I guess Sapporo had to go along with it. Three years later, Sapporo's just like, "Eh," shut the whole thing down.

Jason Calacanis 54:54 Um, I think-

Guest 54:54 And that, and that's, and that's the thing is you gotta be careful what you wish for.

Jason Calacanis 54:57 This is, this is-

David Sacks 54:57 Overplay your hand I, I, I really think the thing with unions that they get wrong is unions fight for exactly this, which is this short-term increase in current compensation. And I think what unions do very poorly is actually understanding the long-term equity that the employees and members of that union actually create. I tweeted this a few weeks ago as well, but the single biggest reason that motivated me when I sold my piece of the Warriors was obviously just the crazy increase in the valuation, right?

Jason Calacanis 55:29 Yes.

David Sacks 55:29 Yeah.

Guest 55:29 I bought it for, you know-

Jason Calacanis 55:31 300, 600.

Guest 55:32 ... 300, and it was worth 5.2 billion at the time or whatever. But the second-biggest reason was my huge fear was that I, as an owner, I just wanted to cash in the chips because I think the most right thing to do for the union, like the NBA Players Association, is to fight for equity.

Jason Calacanis 55:49 Yeah.

Guest 55:50 If like... Michael Jordan single-handedly has created $15 billion of equity in the NBA.

Jason Calacanis 55:57 Yep.

Guest 55:58 How much has he captured? 1 or 2 billion, but not from the league. He captured it accidentally from shoes, right? How much money has LeBron James actually created for the NBA? It's enormous.

Jason Calacanis 56:08 Yep.

Guest 56:09 How much has he-

Jason Calacanis 56:10 He made five or 10-

Guest 56:11 All right, so they're not, they're not trying to get the right piece of the upside.

David Sacks 56:12 They're not trying to get the right piece of the upside.

Guest 56:14 But also, when the business doesn't do well, then th- the labor contracts become a source of huge inflexibility.

David Sacks 56:20 Huge inflexibility.

Guest 56:20 And you can't make the necessary business changes.

David Sacks 56:22 So, to your point-

Guest 56:22 So, the businesses get shut down.

David Sacks 56:23 So, to your point, like when you... When... What happens now is there's these huge luxury taxes in professional sports. And so folks bloat the payroll, they try to get all these players, but if you don't win and get to the playoffs, you're not selling more merch, you're not getting incremental share of TV revenues, you're not getting ticket revenues, and, all of a sudden, you have these massive luxury taxes you have to pay and not enough revenue to pay for it. And so these teams, all of a sudden, now start to gush money, have to make capital calls because these things that sound incredible upfront start to become real weights on these businesses. The real thing, all unions in all industries, I would, I would tell you all to do is figure out how to get the equity upside in the business in which your members are working in and are creating value in.

Guest 57:09 Right. And in exchange for that, have more forgiveness on the downside-

David Sacks 57:12 Have... Exactly.

Guest 57:12 ... so the business can actually persevere-

David Sacks 57:14 Weather the storm.

Guest 57:14 ... and whether the storm, it's forced to have to shut down.

David Sacks 57:16 Exactly.

Jason Calacanis 57:17 Alignment. You know, alignment of incentive-

Guest 57:18 Alignment.

David Sacks 57:18 Alignment's sensitive.

Jason Calacanis 57:19 ... incentives are just so critical. I was talking to the head of one of the giant publishers. I wouldn't say which one. IBN-S-BI- Insider? I don't know which one it was, but, um, they were being unionized. And I said, "Wow, is this a disaster for your business?" He says, "Oh, J-Cal, greatest thing ever." I said, "Why?" He's like, "Now, when people come to us and they wanna get paid more, we just take out the chart." "How many years have you been here? Oh, five? Okay, yeah. One, two, three, four, five. 72,000." And they say, "Well, no, but I bring more page views" or whatever. It's like, "Yeah, okay, yeah. Page view multiplier 0.15. Okay, so you're 78K." And it just basically-

David Sacks 57:55 That's what happens at Business Insider?

Guest 57:56 Yeah, but that's kind of-

Jason Calacanis 57:57 I, who knows? Which publication?

Guest 57:58 That's probably why they're a, a clickbait business is what's the incentive?

Jason Calacanis 58:01 And then that drives perverse incentives.

Guest 58:03 Right.

Jason Calacanis 58:03 And it's like why not align it with what is the profitability of the business, what is the growth of the business, a bonus pool, a base level of pay? And if the unions are coming in, they are literally rearranging the chairs on the Titanic. A- and it's that simple. You, you, if you can-

Guest 58:18 Well, both the beer industry and Hollywood are both shrinking industries.

Jason Calacanis 58:22 Yeah.

Guest 58:22 And so when you got unions demanding more and more and more of a shrinking pie, something's gonna break. Now, look, just to be clear, I'm in favor of unions demanding things like better working conditions and healthcare and just, like, the basics.

Jason Calacanis 58:33 Yeah.

Guest 58:34 But, you know, when they try to go for things like, I don't know, banning AI and-

Jason Calacanis 58:39 Weird, yeah.

Guest 58:39 ... um, and proposals that distort the cost structure of the business to the point where it's just not feasible, it's not profitable, that doesn't work.

Jason Calacanis 58:46 Also, the question is white-collar workers who can move so freely between jobs-

Guest 58:52 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 58:52 ... so elite, why would any white-collar worker who is learning and sharpening their blade and increasing their value year after year, why would they even want to join a union? There was a podcast union that started in Spotify and, uh, Gimlet Media, all of this stuff. And one of the podcasts, I think it was Reply All, they didn't want to join the union 'cause they're like, "Well, we're overcompensated. We're a hit show." And then-

David Sacks 59:16 Okay, look, can we-

Jason Calacanis 59:16 ... they were all claimed that they were-

Guest 59:18 Well, look at what's happening in the schools.

David Sacks 59:19 But can we, can we steel man?

Jason Calacanis 59:21 I mean, yeah.

Guest 59:21 I mean, you can't get rid of a bad teacher because they're in the union, so it's like a huge proceeding.

Jason Calacanis 59:25 So, they put them in a building-

Guest 59:26 Right.

Jason Calacanis 59:26 ... where the incompetent teachers-

David Sacks 59:27 Can we, can we actually steel man the pro case of joining a union in 2023? Can we, can we-

Jason Calacanis 59:33 I mean, if you could get benefits.

David Sacks 59:34 How do you steel man it?

Jason Calacanis 59:35 Benefits, like some basic level of benefits?

David Sacks 59:38 Pre-brief?

Chamath Palihapitiya 59:40 Look, I, I think that the pitch... And J-Cal, this is why I asked you this a few episodes ago, you know, tell us your experience having grown up in a family that I think unions are pretty proliferant in these, um-

David Sacks 59:52 Cops, firemen.

Chamath Palihapitiya 59:53 ... cops, firemen and so on.

Jason Calacanis 59:53 Yeah, I mean, if you're-

Chamath Palihapitiya 59:54 The pitch is you're, you're part of a membership. You have a voice.

Jason Calacanis 59:58 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 59:58 And that voice always is your advocate, and then that advocate looks out for benefits, comp, time off, whether or not and how you get fired, all the things that you feel you may be unfairly treated by management. There's nothing novel here.

Guest 1:00:11 I don't, I don't know if that's-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:00:11 It's a, it's a strong appealing point.

Guest 1:00:13 Yeah, so I don't know if that's the best steel man for it because, because, look-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:00:17 But, but, but, but, but the... But, by the way, the argument-

Guest 1:00:17 ... employee... It's a competitive labor market if you have skills that companies want. So, you should be able to negotiate for a lot of these things yourself. I think the steel man case for unions and the reason why they formed in the first place is because American industry was basically owned by an oligopoly. They were themselves monopolies. So, if you have-

Jason Calacanis 1:00:34 Right.

Guest 1:00:34 ... a monopoly of industries like US Steel or Standard Oil-

Jason Calacanis 1:00:39 You own the town.

Guest 1:00:39 ... then there's not a competitive labor market. They just set the prices. They set the conditions.

Jason Calacanis 1:00:43 Right.

Guest 1:00:43 That's why the unions got started is you needed a basically monopoly of labor to face off against a monopoly of business.That's how it got started. And I think in those conditions, we're talking about the early 1900s. There, like, you know-

Jason Calacanis 1:00:56 People were losing limbs in factories.

Guest 1:00:58 Yeah. Of course.

Jason Calacanis 1:00:58 This was a-

Guest 1:00:59 It was very different working conditions.

Jason Calacanis 1:01:00 ... different working conditions.

Guest 1:01:00 But now, you're talking about-

Jason Calacanis 1:01:02 Well, com-

Guest 1:01:02 ... much more competitive industries. But look-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:01:04 Yeah. There was a great deal-

Guest 1:01:05 You know?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:01:05 ... of la- like, manual labor needed to get productivity out of businesses and enterprise. So, you know, so much of industry changed where things became automated, where there became specialization and differentiation amongst the workforce. And it wasn't everyone is just using their arms to do things. And, you know, th- this is obviously now measurable. And the idea that you can basically, you know, capture management or do a hostile takeover of the corporation or the equity, I, I think is effectively what's happened with a lot of these, these, uh, these unions, uh-

Jason Calacanis 1:01:32 And I'll be honest, knowing what I know about unions, if you were to do a deep dive into, you know, the police unions, or the firefighter unions, or the sanitation unions, or the teacher unions, and you look at their pensions and their overtime, you would see some pretty significant abuse that the unions have built up over years to where people can make $300,000 or $400,000 a year in the last two or three years. They goose that up because then they base their pension on the average of the last three years. And what basically happens is, all the senior guys say, "Listen, all overtime goes to these three guys who are retiring in three years, and none of the junior guys can take any overtime. And when it's your turn-"

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:12 Right. You get that piece.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:13 "... you get all that, and then we're gonna goose your pay." So, the unions-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:16 And what that, what, what that does, unreasonably-

Jason Calacanis 1:02:18 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:18 ... is the pension calculation, the pay into the pension, is based on some assumption of today. As that starts to happen, the pensions become underfunded because they no longer have enough capital to make all the disbursements that are supposed to happen. And there's a big argument now that there's probably over a trillion dollars of underfunded pension liabilities in the United States, many of which are based on the fact that these payout principles were defined by some negotiation with the union.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:42 And they're gamed. And, uh, there's a large difference between somebody writing a listicle or rewriting a Washington Post story-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:49 A testicle?

Jason Calacanis 1:02:50 ... in Business ... A listicle?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:52 A listicle? (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:02:53 A listicle?

Guest 1:02:53 What'd you say? (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:02:53 Yeah. Somebody rewriting a listicle-

Guest 1:02:55 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:02:55 ... at Buzzfeed or, you know, somebody rewriting a Wall Street Journal-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:58 A listicle.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:58 ... paywall story in Business Insider-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:01 Sounds to us like testicle. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:03:01 ... than somebody running into a, running into a burning building or, you know-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:05 Right.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:05 ... um, having a target on their back as a cop in San Francisco. These are very different jobs. And the white-collar knowledge workers are lasting, what? What's the average tenure right now? 36 months?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:16 Less.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:17 30 months? I mean, you're obviously h- moving from place to place. What's the point of the union, you know?

Guest 1:03:22 It's a competitive labor market. And, and to your point-

Jason Calacanis 1:03:24 Yes.

Guest 1:03:24 ... it's true that, in some cases, the unions do get a better deal for their members. However, there is a deadweight loss for the union itself because the union's representing its own interests. Do you-

Jason Calacanis 1:03:35 1.5%.

Guest 1:03:36 So they're taking something off the top, too.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:37 They gotta skim. They're skimming. They gotta pay the bank.

Guest 1:03:39 Watch that Scorsese movie. Was it The Irishman?

Jason Calacanis 1:03:42 Irishman, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:43 Irishman.

Guest 1:03:43 You really get a taste of the corruption that was involved.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:45 There was some skimming going on.

Guest 1:03:46 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:46 Everybody gets a little skim. All of a sudden, one and a half times are-

Guest 1:03:48 But then, also, the pension fund starts getting-

Jason Calacanis 1:03:50 Yeah.

Guest 1:03:51 ... you know, rolled into mob projects or whatever. I mean, that's like-

Jason Calacanis 1:03:54 Exactly.

Guest 1:03:54 ... a while ago, but-

Jason Calacanis 1:03:56 Yeah. I, I, I, I-

Guest 1:03:57 There were some significant downsides.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:58 My view of it is we lived in a decade of surplus elites, you know, having these luxury jobs. And I'll put in the luxury jobs being a journalist, being a venture capitalist, you know, these elitist luxury jobs. And in some of them, they became so wildly overcompensated, I think they wanted to feel oppressed. They wanted to feel like they needed representation. And I think they were LARPing, to use the term again, live action role-playing, that they were gonna be in a union. Like, they wanted to be-

Guest 1:04:27 They're, they're LARPing as being victims.

Jason Calacanis 1:04:29 Right.

Guest 1:04:29 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:04:29 They wanted to, like ... Literally, the Business Insider people were putting up pictures of Henry Blodget and his energy-

Guest 1:04:35 They were LARPing grievances.

Jason Calacanis 1:04:37 Yes. And they're on the street holding a picket sign up. And I'm like, "What's the matter? Is your keyboard not ergonomic enough at home?"

Guest 1:04:43 Right. They didn't get-

Jason Calacanis 1:04:44 "You haven't been to an office in three fucking years."

Guest 1:04:46 They didn't get the latest flavor of, of KIND bars or whatever? It's like, come on.

Jason Calacanis 1:04:49 Yeah. No. They didn't get the cherry, the, the cranberry, walnut-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:04:51 Tomorrow, if there was a KIND bar, (inaudible) Q-U.

Jason Calacanis 1:04:54 Q-U, KIND bars. I mean, like, leave the unions for the people who are actually on the front lines. It's-

Guest 1:04:59 Yeah. Let's let food talk.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:05:00 They'd lose a finger.

Jason Calacanis 1:05:00 All right. So, uh, I think, well, we could wrap. Um-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:05:02 Good wrap. Should we wrap? Yes.

Jason Calacanis 1:05:03 It's probably

Jason Calacanis 1:05:04 wrap time, I think.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:05:04 Would you wanna do a quick science corner update? I got a lot of texts this week.

Jason Calacanis 1:05:07 Oh, actually.

Guest 1:05:08 Room temp super conductor?

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:05:09 Yeah. Yeah. Did you see this?

Guest 1:05:09 Oh, there is a, uh ... Actually, it's a-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:05:11 Look, well-

Guest 1:05:11 ... very, uh, interesting, um, warp control.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:05:13 You, you may remember a few episodes ago ... And if you, if you don't remember, you kinda can go back and watch it, um, where I talked a little bit about the effort to try and identify a material that can be superconducting at room temperature, which means no resistance. Electrons can flow through the material with no re- resistance, perfect, um, electricity transfer across distance, and also enables the Meissner effect, where magnetic waves can reflect off of the material, which can allow things like levitating trains, which is very low friction transportation. All these benefits of superconducting materials, uh, quantum computing, et cetera. So yesterday, and, and I've gotten literally dozens of emails and notes about this in the last 12 hours, there was a paper published by a team in South Korea who seem like a very legit team. There's no reason why they would kind of make a, a fraudulent claim that there's a material that they've identified and measured to show has superconducting properties at room temperature and ambient pressure, where a lot of these efforts historically have been made at room temperature but they use 200 times atmospheric pressure to compress it. And it turns out that this material that they're using is a lead, uh, apatite, which is a, uh, it's a hexagonal crystal that uses, uh, calcium phosphate and lead, and that some of the cal- uh,