E16: Reflecting on the riots at the US Capitol, plus: Georgia runoffs, vaccine distribution & more

Narrator 0:00 I'm going all in. Wet your beak. Wet your beak. Wet your beak.

Jason Calacanis 0:07 Besties are back.

Narrator 0:08 I'm going all in.

David Sacks 0:11 Let your winners ride.

Jason Calacanis 0:14 Rain Man, David Sachs.

Narrator 0:16 I'm going all in.

David Sacks 0:18 And I said we open sources to the fans, and they've just gone crazy with it.

Jason Calacanis 0:22 Love you, West. Nice queen of quinoa.

Narrator 0:24 I'm going all in. Let your winners ride. Let, let, let your winners ride. Let your winners ride.

Jason Calacanis 0:31 Besties are back. Oh. (laughs) That's funny. A dog taking a piss in your driveway, Sachs. (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:38 Oh, man.

David Friedberg 0:39 My ........................ will meet the influenza.

0:40 We should all just get a room and just have one big huge orgy 'cause they're all just useless. It's like this, like, sexual tension that they just need to release somehow.

Narrator 0:49 Wet your beak.

Jason Calacanis 0:50 Wet your beak.

David Sacks 0:51 Wet your beak.

Jason Calacanis 0:53 Beak. (laughs) We need to get merch.

Narrator 0:56 I'm going all in. I'm going all in.

Jason Calacanis 1:06 All right, and we're back. And thank you to Young Spielberg with the All In 1.5 extended edition remix. We're going all in.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:17 That was, uh-

Jason Calacanis 1:17 Thank you to the super fans.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:19 ... that was really incredible actually.

Jason Calacanis 1:20 We're back.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:20 I gotta say.

Jason Calacanis 1:21 We're back. Bestie-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:22 Thanks, Young Spielberg.

Jason Calacanis 1:23 Yeah, shout out, Young Spielberg. With us, The Dictator, Chamath Palihapitiya. The Rain Man himself, David Sachs is definitely an excellent driver, and his dad lets him drive in the driveway. And the queen of quinoa, Spacktacular, David Freberg is with us. We did an emergency pod. We just had all agreed we're taking a nice break. Nothing's gonna happen over the new year. This is the down period.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:47 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:47 And 2021 is gonna be delightful and simple, and then all hell breaks loose. We could start with the vaccine. We could start with the Capitol. We could start with Georgia.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:59 No, we have to start, we have to start, we have to start with the Capitol.

Jason Calacanis 2:02 We have to start with the Capitol.

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:02 Let's just start with the obvious.

Jason Calacanis 2:04 All right, so let me just run through the series of events that occurred here. There was a certification process, correct, Sachs, that goes on where the Electoral College gets counted?

Jason Calacanis 2:14 And somewhere at 10:00 AM, Trump had a rally of thousands of, uh, supporters. You were not there, David, correct?

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:22 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 2:22 You weren't at this rally.

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:23 He was in, he was in, quote unquote, "Miami." (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 2:26 Right. I think he's in the Miami Hilton on Pennsylvania Avenue right now. And he put up that fake Miami background. But the truth is, let's be honest here, um, Trump came out at 10:00 AM and had a rally.

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:41 Jason, can we just take a step back for a second?

Jason Calacanis 2:43 Okay.

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:43 Doesn't, doesn't David Sachs look like Elliott Gould in Ocean's Eleven right now?

Jason Calacanis 2:48 He kinda does.

Chamath Palihapitiya 2:49 He's so Elliott Gould.

David Sacks 2:51 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 2:52 He is a silver fox. And are you... I mean, you were very public about being in Miami over the new year. You took your talents to Miami. And, uh, we see this background, um, so we can assume The Dictator's in his, uh, pool house poker room. We know that Freberg's in a Ritz-Carlton somewhere based on the furniture. He's in his Ritz-Carlton, uh, office. And, Sachs, based on your background, are you in Miami right now?

David Sacks 3:17 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 3:17 Are you still there?

David Sacks 3:18 Yeah. I, I, I still, I'm still, I'm still here.

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:20 Okay, but David, did you-

David Sacks 3:21 I'm s-

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:21 ... meet with the mayor or not?

David Sacks 3:23 I, I haven't... I, I actually met him. I did meet him. I went to, like, a tech, uh, event the other night, and he was there. So, um-

Jason Calacanis 3:31 Were you wearing masks at the tech event or not?

Chamath Palihapitiya 3:32 Were you wearing a mask? Mask or no mask?

David Sacks 3:34 They... It was, th- there, there were, like, masks and-

Jason Calacanis 3:37 Oh, I said no. (laughs)

David Sacks 3:37 No, no, no, I'll tell you. There were masks indoors, and then there was, like, COVID testing inside, and then you could graduate to the outdoor patio part where people generally weren't wearing masks.

Jason Calacanis 3:48 So, were you in conversations with people with no masks on? Is that what you're saying? At this event?

David Sacks 3:53 Yeah, but, you know, everyone's been, like, COVID tested, like, a zillion times. And it was outdoors and, you know. I'm willing to meet with people outdoors. You know, I generally don't do it indoors, but I'm-

Jason Calacanis 4:03 Huh, yeah.

David Sacks 4:04 ... I'm, I've, I've, I've said that's my policy starting several months ago.

Jason Calacanis 4:08 David, do you-

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:09 Can we, can we rewind to April with that photo of Sachs? Do we have it? Where he was in the ski mask and the goggles and the helmet? And, like, the biohazard suit. And, like, how things have changed, he's like, "I'll go to Miami and have a chat with someone."

David Sacks 4:22 Yeah, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:22 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 4:22 Look, you, you could, you could-

David Sacks 4:24 You, you, you, you could definitely do a how it started and how it's going-

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:28 Right.

David Sacks 4:28 ... uh, split photo for it. But, but, look, at the time-

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:30 You're, like, sharing a banana split with someone. Like, you know? (laughs)

David Sacks 4:34 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:34 Like-

Jason Calacanis 4:35 He's literally on eBay and Alibaba buying ventilators-

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:39 Right.

Jason Calacanis 4:39 ... for his home triage center.

David Sacks 4:43 Well, I mean, we, we had people from the WHO saying in March that the, you know, that the case fa- the infection fatality rate was like 7%. You know, and the two big things we learned after that were, number one, that there was a huge distribution by age, right? And so somebody under 50 without comorbidities had a much, much, much lower risk. And then also the thing we learned is that the, there's, there's maybe a 10X difference between the infection fatality rate and the case fatality rate. I mean, you guys know all this.

Jason Calacanis 5:11 Yeah.

David Sacks 5:11 And so, so, uh, once we learned those things, um, I mean, I, you, you know, I think a rational person takes things like that into account. I changed my policy with respect to COVID, you know? And, and now especially that we have, uh, you know, easy access to tests, which weren't available, you can get tested before going into a event. So, I-

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:32 I have a, I have a question to add on to that. Do you own a fur Chewbacca outfit?

David Sacks 5:40 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:40 And were, were you in Washington DC yesterday-

Jason Calacanis 5:43 With war paint on. (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:45 ... with war paint on, with war paint on your nipples?

Jason Calacanis 5:46 Do you have a podium? (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:49 Last night-

Jason Calacanis 5:49 Do you have a neck to waist tattoo?

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:52 (laughs)

David Sacks 5:52 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 5:52 Are you standing behind a podium-

David Sacks 5:54 Let me hide the, the Viking horns that I've got stashed away here.

Jason Calacanis 5:59 All right, listen. We're laughing-

David Sacks 5:59 It was a great, it was a k- k-

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:00 Can

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:01 we title, can we title yesterday's event National Lampoon Siege of the Capitol?

Jason Calacanis 6:04 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:05 I mean, it was like Animal House. Like, you know.

David Sacks 6:07 Yeah, there was a great, there was a great tweet b- uh, by somebody saying this was...Uh, this was like the storming of the Bastille as perpetrated by the cast of Animal House. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 6:17 Right? Totally. (laughs)

David Sacks 6:18 Uh, and there, and there was another-

Jason Calacanis 6:19 Totally.

David Sacks 6:19 There was another great tweet saying, uh, "The Capitol now appears to be under the control of a man in a Viking mask."

Jason Calacanis 6:26 (laughs)

David Sacks 6:27 (laughs) Uh... (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 6:28 (laughs)

David Sacks 6:28 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 6:28 The best one-

David Sacks 6:29 So- (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 6:29 The best one was, "I have lost all respect for Nicolas Cage's ability to steal the US Constitution."

David Sacks 6:35 (laughs) Yeah, exactly.

Jason Calacanis 6:36 Apparently- (laughs)

David Sacks 6:37 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 6:37 ... whatever copy's left. All right, so let's just-

David Sacks 6:39 (sighs)

Jason Calacanis 6:39 ... go through the chain of events here, and it was, it was absolutely surreal because Trump literally went out to a, a mob of people, um, and said, "I want you to march down Pennsylvania Avenue and show the GOP what it takes to have courage," et cetera. Mike Pence, uh, apparently told Trump that he was not gonna go to bat for him in this ceremonial, um, process of counting the votes. And lo and behold, you're watching this, you know, the objections going on to the electorial count, and you see the Secret Service come rushing in. And it becomes a, you know, very serious situation and when you watch some of the videos, it is truly terrorizing that thousands of people overwhelmed the police and... I guess I wanna start with people's opinion on Trump's culpability in inciting what was very dangerous behavior. Four people are dead. Um, so we, you know, while we're joking about the cosplay outfits, a woman who was a, an ardent Trump supporter, who is a vet, who did four tours, uh, from what I've read, and I shared the video with you before, literally, you know, as they broke into the building, was trying to breach another area of the building. And she's climbing through a window and gets shot, apparently by the Secret Service or the police, and dies. And so it's all fun and games until four people are dead, and now somebody's lost their wife, daughter, sister- No, but Jason, Jason, I mean, there could have been 400 dead. There could have been 4,000 dead. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean this could have become a shootout at the OK Corral. I can't understand why the police showed the restraint they did. I mean, when you see them getting surrounded, I don't know if you saw the one, uh- They didn't, they didn't show restraint, Jason. There was no police. When you look at the amount of, um, security that's typically there, and has been there for other situations, and then you compare it to the amount of security, knowing for a month and a half that this was coming, it's, um... it just doesn't make any sense to me. So I'm a little- Okay. I'm a little dumbfounded that, you know, you couldn't have seen this Facebook group called, you know, #StormtheCapitol, which had tens of thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of members in there, plotting and scheming, selling merchandise called Storm the Capitol. You know, these guys were wearing, uh, printed sweatshirts that they had time to make. Um, and nobody knew about it and nobody thought to reinforce, um, the security and barricade it and make sure that you couldn't go from the protest site to the Cap- I mean, I- it just seems-

David Sacks 9:19 I- I think there was a-

Jason Calacanis 9:19 ... like there's some level of complicity that needs to get found out here. But there was a, there was an interview I saw with, uh, an ex-DC police guy who said that, um, I think folks were told to tamper down. Uh, the police forces were told to tamper down on managing crowds and protests and riots following the controversy associated with BLM a few months ago. And spraying folks with pepper spray, and water, and all the, um, physical techniques that were used, were so, um, outraging that, uh, that there was just more of a systemic concern about being too aggressive with protesters, and as a result they went too far the other way. Uh, it's-

David Sacks 9:57 Uh-

Jason Calacanis 9:58 ... it's, it's not an unreasonable-

David Sacks 9:58 And so it just happens to be, Friedberg, that when Black people protested and Brown people, they got to tear gas and beaten with batons and then when the white people, uh, stormed the wa- the, the Capitol in the same area, they got, uh- I, I-

Jason Calacanis 10:17 ... walked down the steps and escorted out with a stern warning to not do it again. I mean, it, this is hypocritical and insane.

David Sacks 10:24 I- I- I- I don't know why you have to go there particularly. Um, it- it- it looked to me like what happened is that the Capitol Hill Police simply got completely overwhelmed.

Jason Calacanis 10:35 Mm-hmm.

David Sacks 10:35 Uh, you look at these, you know, giant... Th- this is a rally on the Mall that turned into a mob. Well, first it just kind of turned into a tailgater, then it turned into a mob, and then it turned into an insurrection. It kind of stumbled forward into progressive, uh, phases of, uh, of-

Jason Calacanis 10:53 Stupidity.

David Sacks 10:53 ... of stupidity and disaster. But it's- it looked to me like the Capitol Hill Police simply got overwhelmed. They e- they obviously were unprepared, they were surprised, I think, by this. And I saw video of tons of tear gas being used. I saw people getting tear gassed like crazy and I think there was reports, uh, this morning on Twitter that the whole area in front of the Capitol there was covered in that light film that remains after tear gassing. So I don't think they were really pulling punches too much, and I also think that, uh, that th- there will be prosecutions. I think that, uh, the- the- these people were, were captured on video, there's a lot of talk on Twitter, and everybody is in favor of finding out who they are, applying facial recognition, and, uh, bringing charges. So I think there will be a lot of charges, unlike, let's say, the- the BLM protests this summer. I don't remember anybody getting charged based on video of people rioting or looting. And then I think, you know, the- the- the- the final difference, actually, with the BLM protests is that if- if you've w- watched Fox News at all in the last 24 hours, the condemnation of what, of the storming of the Capitol, of what happened, has been across the board. Both right and left, everybody across the political spectrum has condemned it. Nobody is apologizing for it. Nobody on the right is looking for root causes to explain the reasons why it happened. Everybody is just condemning it and saying that it should never have happened, and the people who did it should be prosecuted. And, uh, so I don't see any kid gloves here, uh...... being used, um, you know, either physically or-

Jason Calacanis 12:29 I'll tell you where I see the kick glove, Sacks, is when you see officers being chased up the steps and, uh, or taking selfies. You know, which is one instance. I don't want to just say that's the only indicative in- thing. But when people are breaking through windows and just kind of being let go, I mean, they were obviously overwhelmed, but I'm surprised more people didn't get shot. Chamath-

Chamath Palihapitiya 12:48 David.

Jason Calacanis 12:48 Let's just-

Chamath Palihapitiya 12:49 David.

Jason Calacanis 12:49 ... tackle this head on in terms of the race issue, and-

Chamath Palihapitiya 12:52 But I have... Well, I have qu- I have a question for David before I-

Jason Calacanis 12:55 Okay.

Chamath Palihapitiya 12:55 ... make my statement.

Jason Calacanis 12:56 Okay.

Chamath Palihapitiya 12:57 David, do you think that if this were Black and Brown people storming the Capitol, would there have been more or less than four deaths?

David Sacks 13:08 Uh, honestly, I think it would have been the same. I just, uh-

Jason Calacanis 13:10 Disagree.

David Sacks 13:11 ... you know.

Jason Calacanis 13:11 I disagree.

Chamath Palihapitiya 13:12 I, I really disagree, and I'll tell you why. Um, I think you have the best of intentions wanting to think that way, but here's the way I see it. I see a president that basically instigated a group of people who are fundamentally disenfranchised. Let's face it, like there are, there are a lot of very, very reasonable Republicans and a lot of very reasonable Democrats. The fringes of both parties are functionally mentally retarded. We know this, okay? And so what you see are extreme on both sides, who are just completely lost and looking for any excuse. And so you have a president in the tail end of his presidency, an anonymous presidency, basically call them out. Nobody who actually had a job or anything to do could show up, right? So, you had all these people show up.

Jason Calacanis 14:01 It's a Wednesday, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 14:02 It's a Wednesday, during the day. I mean, and what do you think happens? They're there, they're all frothed up, you know, um, Eric Trump frothing them up, Donald Trump Jr. frothing them up, Trump frothing them up, Giuliani frothing them up, and all of a sudden, as you said, stumbling into degrees of, of craziness and stupidity to storm the Capitol. And I just think to myself, "How could a president instigate this kind of action?" Number one. The second thing I think about is when Black athletes peacefully protested, uh, something that they had the fundamental constitutional right to protest, in the president's eyes, they were sons of bitches. White people that stormed the fucking Capitol, the people's house-

Jason Calacanis 14:52 Yep.

Chamath Palihapitiya 14:52 ... were called patriots by the president's daughter. And then were told-

Jason Calacanis 14:58 Which he deleted.

Chamath Palihapitiya 14:59 ... and then were told that they were loved by the president himself. To me, it's just an enormously stark contrast of a double standard. I think that beyond the persecutions of the people, I actually feel very bad for the people that stormed the Capitol. I feel like these are folks that are on the fringes who just need a vessel, and Trump is a vessel, and then he instigate them and runs away. You know what I mean?

Jason Calacanis 15:23 He's a coward.

Chamath Palihapitiya 15:23 And then they, they-

Jason Calacanis 15:23 He's lost. These are lost people.

Chamath Palihapitiya 15:25 Then these guys commit the crime, and now they're going to go to jail. I feel like the, the culpability has to go all the way back to Trump, to Hawley, to Cruz. Uh, these guys are the... Those are the real scumbags in all of this.

Jason Calacanis 15:38 Freeberg, what do you... What are your thoughts on this? And then I'll go back to Sacks and let him respond.

David Sacks 15:46 Yeah, I don't, I don't think it's unreasonable to assume that if this was a Black Lives Matter and, and, and it was, uh, Black people involved or Brown people involved, uh, in, um, in the same sorts of activities you saw yesterday, that you would not see, uh, more shootings. I, I don't think that's a reasonable, uh, position to take. Uh, obviously, um, I think there's this other circumstance, which is that event preceding this one. As I mentioned, I, I saw an interview with a DC Police, um, former police dire- director of the police or something. I forgot what his title was, where he highlighted that, you know, folks were kind of instructed to stand down following the BLM controversies. And so I think that's also kind of a reasonable point of view. And, uh, is-

Jason Calacanis 16:28 What about the president's culpability? I mean, I think that's one issue that's-

David Sacks 16:31 Yeah, let me-

Jason Calacanis 16:32 ... gonna have to be addressed post- And I think we have to figure out what life post-Trump is gonna be like, because this is a level of chaos that nobody, to Sacks' point, all people condemned. Um...

David Sacks 16:43 It's, um... Yeah, there's a, there's a, there's a theory which actually takes its origin from, from Hitler, where, uh, Hitler used this term, "the big lie." And, uh, you know, the theory is, is that you can, um, create political propaganda by saying something that's so outrageous, um, it, it is so improbable that people say, "There's no way this thing keeps getting said over and over unless it's actually real." Um, and this is sort of like the QAnon pedophile ring in the pizzeria or the fact that the election was stolen from you. It is such an outrageous statement, um, that, uh, that it seems to people, uh, that it only has to be true, um, because it is, it is such an insane thing. And if it is, it's so insane, and I am so, uh, incited by this thing. So, this is kind of a, uh, you know, acknowledged as being a, you know, a political propaganda technique that, that goes back a long time. By the way, Hitler used it as a way to, to, uh, use it as almost like a double bluff, uh, to blame the Jews, um, uh, in, uh, in Germany, which was, um, uh, you know, an unfortunate kind of origin of, of the term. But, um, uh, but the term is used a lot now in saying, like, these sorts of events are ridiculous. Now, what's gonna happen going forward? I, I don't think big lies go away. You can try and mute them on Twitter and mute them on Facebook or mute them on Reddit, but whether it's QAnon or whatever is next, um, this is becoming kind of a standard form now. Because of the way media is distributed, anyone can say a big lie and it gets a, a lot of listens.

Jason Calacanis 18:13 W-

David Sacks 18:13 And, and Trump is totally culpable for that. He made some shit up. He made a bunch of claims. I mean, if, if you guys haven't seen Lindsey Graham's speech yesterday, it is absolutely worth watching, that he gave-

Jason Calacanis 18:22 Yes.

David Sacks 18:23 ... late, late last night.

Jason Calacanis 18:23 I saw it. I saw it.

David Sacks 18:24 And he's like, he's like, "I asked for the, for the... Show me the, the eight, the 10... Give me 10 people that claim that they voted and they were under 18." He's like, "They gave me one. Give me anyone that, that, uh, was in prison or died and they gave me zero." And he like goes on and on for a couple of minutes about how none of what was said about what happened in the election was true, and it was all false. And he's like, "This is all just not true."Um, and so I think Trump is culpable for creating a falsehood and, uh, and, uh, you know, having a megaphone. And, you know, there were certainly technology enabling-

Jason Calacanis 18:53 What about the inciting of violence?

David Sacks 18:55 I-

Jason Calacanis 18:55 That is, I think, where the rubber is gonna meet the road. Trump's gonna be out of office in two weeks or less, one way or the other. Do you, uh, and let me just take it to Sacks, um, Sacks, I wanna give you the time to respond to the, the issue of, uh, the double standard, uh, in terms of race and BLM. And then also, do you, Sacks, if you're on Biden's team coming in, do you advise that you prosecute Trump or investigate Trump for this insurrection, yes or no?

David Sacks 19:26 Okay. So just, just to tie off on the, the BLM issue, I, I just, you know, I just fundamentally don't think that race is the issue here. Um, uh, Chamath, look, I, I don't know at the end of the day, uh, what the fatalities would have been if it had been a BLM protest that, that went awry. Uh, but I will stick to what I said before, which is, I predict that you will see more prosecutions come out of this, uh, o- of the people who were involved, I'm talking about the people who stormed the Capitol, than we saw from all the, the BLM protests over the summer. I mean, I don't remember any prosecutions coming out of videotape of people being caught recorded looting and rioting, and I predict you will see more here. And again, I think another difference... Again, th- to the extent there's a double standard, uh, I, you know, I remember a lot of left-wing news networks, um, calling the, the rioting and looting this summer peaceful protests, which they clearly were not. You even had a book called In Defense of Looting, and I don't hear anybody defending the storming of the Capitol, nobody on the right. So t- look, to the extent there's a double standard, I don't know that it accrues to the, the BLM side of this. But look, I think that's kind of beside the point and not, not the real issue here. I mean, Jason, to your question of, is Trump responsible? Yes. I mean, clearly.

Jason Calacanis 20:39 100%.

David Sacks 20:40 He... 100%, yes, because he, he is the one who, who, who put forth this theory that the election was stolen and was constantly repeating it for the last two months. Two months ago, right after the election, there was an article published in The Spectator called Deplorables Don't Riot. It was actually a pretty good op-ed. You know, it was written by a conservative, and the conservative's point was that, you know, all these windows and shops have been boarded up in anticipation of potential rioting and looting with the election. And all these conservatives were saying, "Well, who's due... You know, who are they afraid of? You know, not, not us, not the MAGA folks." Well, and the theory was deplorables don't, don't riot. And, and, and, and the right was, was proud of that two months ago, and now we are seeing that, well, no, the deplorables are rioting. What... Why is that? What, what changed over the last two months? And what changed is the constant feeding to this group of people this idea, starting with Trump but then perpetuated by, you know, different right-wing media organizations and other politicians who sort of were, you know, trying to curry favor with Trump. Uh, they were constantly pushing forward this idea that the election was stolen, so that these-

Jason Calacanis 21:50 Mm-hmm.

David Sacks 21:50 ... people on the Mall, who then rioted and stormed the Capitol, believed that the election was being stolen from them. So, you know, ultimately that responsibility goes... I- i- i- is Trump's.

Jason Calacanis 21:59 So to be clear and reflecting back to you, you're saying Trump incited sedation, is that the right word?

David Sacks 22:08 Well-

Jason Calacanis 22:08 Sedition?

David Sacks 22:09 Uh, it's, it's... Sedition doesn't seem like the wrong... It doesn't seem like the exact right word to me. I mean-

Jason Calacanis 22:14 A riot?

David Sacks 22:14 It was... It, it was certainly a riot. Now, now, did... Now, look, I mean, you're talking about prosecuting a legal case. Uh, you know, if you wanna look at the legal standard for incitement, it has to be, you know, provoking people to take an imminent lawless act, uh, did he-

Jason Calacanis 22:29 That's pretty close.

David Sacks 22:31 Did... I think, I think he load... If you wanna see the, this mob as a gun, I think he loaded the gun. He pointed it in a certain direction, but did he tell them to storm the Capitol? No, not specifically. I think, therefore, it'd be a very hard case to prosecute. But I think, you know, prosecuting him in a court of law is just, is sort of unnecessary and redundant. I mean, I think that in the eyes of the public, politically, he is... I think most people see that he's culpable, and I even think most-

Jason Calacanis 22:57 Is that the end of his cr- political career?

David Sacks 23:00 I think he's, I think he's disqualified himself from being a, a, a candidate at, you know, at a national level again. I mean, if you look-

Jason Calacanis 23:06 Okay.

David Sacks 23:06 Again, if you just go back two months ago, uh, look at how much has changed. Two months ago, just in the day or two after the election, Trump had narrowly lost, but there was talk of him starting a new news network to rival Fox. There was talk about he could even be a, a candidate again in, in 2024. It was not off the table. I think now it's, it's clearly off the table, and you've seen... I- it's partly because of the Georgia run-offs, which, which we should get to. But again, the Republican candidates, at least one of them, had won that election two months ago, and now they lost, and that, that has a lot to do with Trump's antics in the meantime of just feeding this constant, you know, lie about the stolen election.

Jason Calacanis 23:47 By the way, Chamath, go ahead, Freeman.

David Sacks 23:48 All right, I think there's a really important question about, you know... Sorry, but is it worth, um, prosecuting Trump, uh, post-fact? Um, you know, does that do more harm or good for, for the country as a whole? Certainly, there would be a lot of people that would get great satisfaction in putting Trump in prison, and a lot of people are calling for that. But, um, we really do need to question the, um, you know, the incredible divide in the nation and what's the best way to, to heal the divide. The objective shouldn't be pursuing justice, uh, it should be about moving forward. Uh, I'm not suggesting don't prosecute Trump, but I, I, I think that it's worth- it's worthy of noting that, you know, there is a- another way of framing this whole thing, which is, what's the best thing to do going forward? The, on the flip side, you could even make the case that one of the best things Joe Biden could do today or tomorrow...... is to announce, uh, a federal election, uh, review commission, uh, to actually look into wrongdoings at the state level with a bi-

24:41 100%. Right.

24:41 ... on a bipartisan basis and report back.

24:42 Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah. I mean, just-

24:44 And i- i- if Biden-

24:44 ... it's a slam, it's a slam dunk case anyway.

24:46 If Biden did that and he, you know, he basically embraced the, the, the notion that a lot of folks are really angry about and said, "I'm listening to you, I'm hearing you. Let me show you." And at the same time, they did not prosecute Trump and, you know, let him go o- go off into the distance and do his own thing, maybe you start to kind of, you know, heal the rift a little bit. But right now, everyone's kind of inflamed and there is this, like, "How do we prosecute him? What do we do when he's, you know, do i- i- you know..." And we're, we're just continuing to kind of escalate the, the dialogue and, and-

25:13 I, I-

25:13 ... and increase the rift.

25:14 I, I just... Yeah. So I... Look, I think prosecuting Trump at this point, first of all, it... Legally, that might be a difficult case to prove because of the need to prove that the, um... that he was p- trying to provoke, uh, an imminent lawless action. You know, if he had been at the barricades, you know, pushing people forward, yes. But... So I think, legally it'd be a tough case and I think it'd be... It... Like you said, it'd be unnecessarily, uh, divisive and partisan. I don't know why we need to go there. I mean-

Chamath Palihapitiya 25:41 (laughs)

David Sacks 25:41 ... at the end of the day, any politician's stock in trade is their credibility and popularity. And Trump has fundamentally damaged the perception of him-

Chamath Palihapitiya 25:50 I. David-

David Sacks 25:50 ... and I think even among the, the right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 25:53 I have a huge issue with this, and I'll tell you why. It's because the folks that are now going to go to jail were instigated by this guy. And the folks that were there, in many ways, were brought, they were cajoled, they were instigated to travel from-

David Sacks 26:12 Groomed.

Chamath Palihapitiya 26:13 ... groomed to travel there, to take the time out of their lives to basically then th- get fed this rhetoric. And in a moment of just crazy mob-like mentality to act out, at the behest of the leader of the free world. There has to be a consequence not just to those people, because th- they, in many ways, are not the person to prosecute. To the extent that you are gonna put some of these people in jail, which we look le- it looks like we're going to... And by the way, let's be honest, there is no inconceivable way that these people get charged with a misdemeanor. That's not gonna stand, right? And the worst perpetrators of this, when they get put in jail, will get put in jail for five to 10 years, minimum. And so what are, what are we gonna do when we look at ourselves in the eye and say, "These poor Americans at the end of the day, who were instigated by this guy, and he yet again gets off scot-free while hundreds of Americans who were basically in a peak of craziness fed by this guy, does something and goes to jail, and you have hundreds of lives and hundreds of families ruined"? Even if we don't find a way to basically put Trump in jail for this, I can 100% guarantee you, I will bet a million bucks, that now the Southern District of New York, gloves off, every single state that can go after this guy, gloves off. And to the extent that Joe Biden had any incentive to basically, like, let this go away at the federal level, gloves off, in my opinion. I really, I really, really think-

David Sacks 27:44 But Chamath, Chamath, so let's say-

Chamath Palihapitiya 27:45 ... something's gonna happen.

David Sacks 27:45 ... let's, let's say that folks do go after Trump. What does that do? If he gets put in jail or he, you know, gets, uh... there, there's some criminal proceeding brought against him, what does that do to the 50% of the nation that truly support him and truly care about him-

Chamath Palihapitiya 27:59 I don't, I don't-

David Sacks 27:59 ... you know? Like, like the balance of justice versus unification, you know, how do we weigh the two?

28:04 I think we're talking actually about 25% of the country, free bird.

Chamath Palihapitiya 28:07 I think... I don't even think it's that-

David Sacks 28:08 Oh, whatever it is. Right? Or whatever it is. Like, there's obviously a big voting bloc and a big bloc of the, uh, potential bloc-

Chamath Palihapitiya 28:13 I think-

David Sacks 28:13 ... three electoral colleges.

Chamath Palihapitiya 28:14 ... I think, I think, I think of the 70 million people that voted for Donald Trump, I think there are half of them who would equally vote for a normal centrist candidate-

David Sacks 28:26 Mitt Romney and-

Chamath Palihapitiya 28:28 ... Nikki Haley. Didn't necessarily believe in Donald Trump. Then I think there's the other 35 million. And I do think that there's a spectrum of those 35. And I think that you probably lost 10 or 15 million of them after the events of yesterday, where they just threw their hands up in the air and said, "Hey, wait a minute. This is-"

David Sacks 28:45 So it w- it, it would really only inflame 20 million is what you're saying.

28:47 Correct. And I agree with Chamath-

Chamath Palihapitiya 28:49 And-

David Sacks 28:49 ... on that.

28:49 Right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 28:49 And those 20 million people are, you know, sad to say, concentrated in about 10 states that don't functionally matter-

David Sacks 28:56 Correct.

Chamath Palihapitiya 28:56 ... economically or otherwise. Um, and so-

David Sacks 28:59 So the bal- the balance of justice versus unification, certainly it sounds like you're saying weighs heavily towards justice, right? Like, more, more folks will benefit from seeing him come to justice or what... perceive justice than-

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:09 I think what it'll allow-

David Sacks 29:11 ... than, than will be-

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:11 I think it'll allow the Republican Party to recenter itself. I think that's better for politics. I think it's better for governance. It's better for America. I think it allows a lot of people to basically wake up out of this haze that they've been in, in four years and say, "Wow, wait a minute. Enough's-"

David Sacks 29:27 Correct.

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:27 "... enough. Like, I was on a really bad bender. I did a couple things I really regret and"-

David Sacks 29:31 100%.

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:31 "... I need to, I need to recenter myself."

David Sacks 29:33 How do you not find this turning into a tit for tat Berlusconi Italy, Brazil, Israel kind of phenomenon where, you know-

29:40 Oh, Freebird.

29:40 ... future leaders are then attacked and challenged and taken, taken-

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:42 The best,

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:43 the best-

David Sacks 29:43 ... to court.

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:43 ... tweet I saw on this was this woman tweeted out that, uh, the following. She said, "When the Democrats lost in 2016, they knitted pink hats and donated to Planned Parenthood."

David Sacks 29:56 No, they didn't.

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:57 And-

David Sacks 29:57 No, they didn't.

Chamath Palihapitiya 29:58 (laughs)

David Sacks 29:58 They invented a ridiculous Russian conspiracy theory.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:01 They, David, they, they-

David Sacks 30:02 That, that, like, 10 people went to jail for.

30:03 The Russia hoax.

30:04 Yeah.

30:04 The Russia hoax.

30:05 Yeah.

30:05 No one went to jail-

30:06 It's not a hoax.

30:06 ... for it. No one was-

30:06 Come on.

30:07 What?

30:07 They, what? They were o- ... The Russians were obviously trying-

30:09 You're-

30:09 ... to interfere.

30:09 ... like the last person... You're like the last person who still believes in this.

30:13 Well, listen, like, look, look-

30:13 I mean-

30:13 ... I still believe that they tried and I still believe... I don't know that they succeeded, but I think they tried.

30:18 Mueller, Mueller, Mueller spent two years investigating this, tens of millions of dollars, 25 FBI ag- uh, agents, uh-

30:22 Yeah, those are all re- those are all GOP talking points. The fact is, Manafort-

30:26 ye-

30:26 ... went to jail and-

30:27 For something completely unrelated.

30:29 These guys were all-

30:30 You're like the w- you must be the last person who still believes that Trump won in 2016 because-

30:34 I, I didn't say that.

30:34 ... of Russian interference.

30:35 I think that they... I think he asked the Ukraine for help and I think he asked the Russians for help, and I think that he would have gladly accepted the help. Now, is i- it... Was it a, a conspiracy, like-

30:46 Does that affect the elect-

30:47 ... in the Uran-

30:47 No, it wasn't a conspiracy.

30:48 N- nobody's s- w- you never know-

30:49 It didn't affect the elect-

30:49 ... if it affected it, but-

30:50 It didn't affect the elect-

30:50 See, this is the problem with your-

Jason Calacanis 30:52 ... Russia talking point is that you're trying to just say because he didn't get prosecuted, which he's probably not going to get prosecuted for this either, the guy is-

David Sacks 31:01 It wasn't just the fact-

Jason Calacanis 31:01 ... a serial offender. Okay? And they were trying to get information from Wikileaks and they were trying to get the, the hacks. And so, I don't know why you can so clearly see what he's doing, David, when he incites this violence, and then you don't see that he would... He has no moral backbone or character, and that he wouldn't accept foreign aid. He's a, he's a treasonous-

David Sacks 31:22 No, no, no. It's not that. It's not that. Look-

Jason Calacanis 31:22 ... bastard. Period.

David Sacks 31:23 Look, here, here, here's my view, okay? Here's my view, is that when you lose an election as a candidate, you have to look in the mirror and ask what you did wrong. Okay? Trump failed to do that two months ago, instead of just taking the L, and you know, and he, he could have blamed it on the fact the vaccine was one week late. I mean, there were, there were... He, you know... Instead of just accepting the loss, he invented this conspiracy theory that the election was stolen, and he's basically, like Friedberg said, been pumping it month after month and, you know, his enablers, you know, have, have perpetuated it until we had this, you know, total breakdown and storming of, of, of the Capitol. But again, you know, where was the Democratic reassessment of why they lost in 2016? Who on the Democrat side looked in the mirror and said, "You know, we shouldn't have lost that election." You know? "What did we do wrong?" They didn't do that, and instead, they blamed it all on Russian interference or Facebook, you know. All of a sudden Facebook went from being a darling to being a scapegoat.

Jason Calacanis 32:21 Uh, and there was, uh, Russian ads (laughs) being bought with rubles and tons of link farms confirmed, done by the Russians in order to, uh, ferment anti-Hillary sentiment. I mean this, this-

David Sacks 32:36 Yeah, no, it's, it's-

Jason Calacanis 32:36 ... actually happened. You know-

David Sacks 32:37 It's true. It's, it's true. Hold on. No, no, no, no, no.

Jason Calacanis 32:40 Did it actually affect the election? Nobody can know that. But it did occur.

David Sacks 32:43 Yes, we can. Yes, we can because yeah, it did. It did. Some FSB-

Jason Calacanis 32:46 Okay, so now you're admitting there was Russian interference?

David Sacks 32:48 No, I, no-

Jason Calacanis 32:49 So you were before saying there wasn't, and now you're saying there was. I mean that's-

David Sacks 32:52 I'm talking about, I'm talking about-

Jason Calacanis 32:53 That's all we need to know.

David Sacks 32:53 ... why somebo- ... No. No, it's not, because here, here's the, here- here's where you're being misleading, is yes, is it true that there was some FSB operative somewhere buying ads on Facebook? But-

Jason Calacanis 33:04 Hundreds of them. Hundreds of them. Perhaps thousands.

David Sacks 33:08 Out of, out o- out of billions of impressions, okay, it was a microscopic number of total impressions of the election and the people who actually looked at those ads thought they were absurd.

Jason Calacanis 33:19 Guys-

David Sacks 33:19 Imagine some operative in... Hold on, hold on, let me finish my point. Imagine some operative in Moscow trying to influence the American election by buying f- ads on Facebook. It- it- y- did they try? Yes. Look, foreign intelligence services are trying all the time, okay? But, was that the re-

Jason Calacanis 33:34 So they did try.

David Sacks 33:35 They did try, yes. But-

Jason Calacanis 33:36 Okay. And did Trump-

David Sacks 33:37 ... was that-

Jason Calacanis 33:37 And did Trump and his family ask them to help?

David Sacks 33:39 No, there was no, there was no proof of collusion. There was no proof of collusion. Okay?

Jason Calacanis 33:43 Okay. They didn't take the meeting, okay.

David Sacks 33:45 That's what Mueller... No, that's what Mueller ... He spent two years investigating it and found no collusion. Look, so my point is, again w- we're getting off on a rabbit hole here, but my point was when, when you as a candidate lose an election, you have to take responsibility for that. Th- that was not done in 2016. It was not done, certainly, in 2020 by Trump. It is the problem with both our political parties that they would rather invent conspiracy theories and lies than acknowledge why people are rejecting them.

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:13 Yeah, I agree with this.

Jason Calacanis 34:14 Hey, Tremoth.

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:14 I, I, I would say this, but that is not the point. David, you are right. Okay? Somewhere along the way, we got stuck worrying about the pronouns that we use and which bathrooms should be or should not be transgendered while the American middle class was completely gutted from pillar to post. That is what's created the boundary conditions for this. Every single time there's been an insurrection or an uprising or a revolution in America, it has never been about ideology. It has always been about economics. Always. And economics is the tip of the spear in this country, whether we like it or not. It started with the Boston Tea Party. You know, it continued through the Civil War. It has always been about that topic. So, we all let it happen. We all have a responsibility to fix it. That though is a topic I think for another day because that's the grand arc of what we need to do in our generation and fix this inequality gap. Meanwhile, we do have this tactical issue which is, you had the leader of the free world, in my opinion and I think in a lot of reasonable-minded people's opinion, instigating essentially at a minimum a riot and at the maximum some form of like-

Jason Calacanis 35:37 Treason.

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:38 ... i- idiotic form of-

David Sacks 35:40 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:40 I don't, I don't... I mean, the, the problem is it's just, it is just like a, it's just, it's incomprehensible what it has done.

Jason Calacanis 35:47 I, I've fallen on the side that we need to prosecute him now. I was, I was 50/50 on this, but I'll tell you what's tipped me over is, you know, i- if we don't prosecute him, there's this sort of like unfairness to it. I think that's a very good point you made, Tremoth. But I also think that he is go- We need to wake people up from this fog they've been in, to Friedberg, and I don't... I think we have to free the Rep- the, the Republican Party to get back to some more version that is reasonable like you are, Sacks. I would rather see you-

David Sacks 36:16 The Republican Party, the Republican Party has, is, is, is already rejecting Trump. So just w- look at what's happened in the last 24 to 48 hours. Even w- after this storming of the Capitol, okay, you had Republicans who pre- who i- were ... Just hours before objecting to the electors, they basically were saying, "No, I've changed my mind."

Jason Calacanis 36:34 Who was that? Lindsey Graham-

David Sacks 36:35 Well-

Jason Calacanis 36:35 But not Ted Cruz, not that other...

David Sacks 36:37 Kelly Loeffler.

Jason Calacanis 36:39 Who's the third one?

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:39 Kelly Loeffler.

Jason Calacanis 36:39 Kelly Loeffler and Ted Cruz.

David Sacks 36:39 Kelly Loeffler did it and there were a few other ones who switched sides.

Jason Calacanis 36:42 Okay.

David Sacks 36:42 Uh, you had ex- you had excellent speeches by Lindsey Graham and, and Romney. I, I agree with that. They spoke very, very eloquently. And just today, Elaine Chao resigned as Secretary of Tr- uh, Transportation. I think that's mostly significant because she's-

Jason Calacanis 36:55 Who's left, David-

David Sacks 36:56 ... she's Mitch McConnell's wife.

Jason Calacanis 36:56 ... in the Republican Party?

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:57 Yeah.

David Sacks 36:58 Look, I think, I think after Georgia-... the Republican party was, a- already blamed Trump for that. And now after the storming of the Capitol, they're ready to be done with him. This idea that you need to prosecute Trump to end his, somehow end his relationship with the Republican Party, I think it will just backfire. Um...

Jason Calacanis 37:16 I don't think that's what the point is. I think the point is that nobody is above the law.

37:20 Yeah.

37:20 And when you, when you lead, you know, what pr- look, the thing with the people that attended this rally is, in any other situation, and Jason you said it earlier, these are our veterans. These are the people that are, like-

37:32 Yeah.

37:32 ... working good jobs. They're trying to just keep America going. They've always believed in American exceptionalism. There was nothing wrong with that. It was just perverted by this fucking scumbag.

37:43 Yep.

37:44 He is a complete-

37:45 That's, that's-

37:45 ... piece of shit fucking scumbag.

37:46 He's garbage. A- and I think that's why you have to prosecute him. I think you have to make an example of him. I, I know that they, with Nixon, they took a different approach, but I just think he's too dangerous to leave unprosecuted, because every time he has some bad behavior, whether it was the Ukraine, whether it's, you know, Russia, and we can debate what level they wanted to engage with the Russians, or, you know, in the case of this, uh, riotous behavior, you know, I think he's not gonna stop. That's the thing that I fear, is I don't think he's gonna stop.

38:16 I would rather, I would rather take every single person arrested and give them zero days in jail and add it all up and give it to Trump.

David Sacks 38:26 Well, I, I, I wouldn't. I mean, I, I agree with you to, to some degree that they were victims of this two-month, uh, propaganda campaign to convince, uh, the right that this election was stolen. I think a lot of those people who were storming the Capitol, they were there bec- not to steal an election, but because they were, thought they were there to prevent the stealing of an election. And so yes, they, they have been duped by a lot of people, including, you know, leading with, with Trump, but including a lot of other people who should have known better. Uh, but, but that being said, they did make the decision to hop the barricade, smash the windows, go into the Capitol.

Jason Calacanis 39:02 There is some personal responsibility-

David Sacks 39:03 Absolutely, yeah.

Jason Calacanis 39:04 ... that has to occur.

David Sacks 39:04 We, we can't, we try-

Jason Calacanis 39:05 And that's the tragedy of this woman. Like-

David Sacks 39:07 Right.

Jason Calacanis 39:07 Let, let's talk about this woman for a second. And, and I think it's important to look at this specific case. This is a person who's a veteran, and she was inside the halls already, and was trying to breach another area, and she was just shot dead by Secret Service. They might have been protecting the VP, they might have been protecting Nancy Pelosi, or Mitch McConnell, who knows. Um, but they shot her dead.

David Sacks 39:33 Mm-hmm. Yeah, I saw it on video. I mean, it's on video.

Jason Calacanis 39:35 It's unbelievable, and it-

David Sacks 39:37 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 39:38 I mean, coming from a law enforcement family, I can tell you that's a clean shooting. If she was breaching and they told her, "Do not come in here, we're going to shoot you," and they were protect- the Secret Service is protecting an asset, they're allowed to shoot you. Like, he- you can't jump that. And she's a military vet. She's from the Air Force. I mean, what is in her mind? How wound up was she by Trump and by this propaganda that when they told her, "Do not breach the second door inside there"- Yeah, that... By the way, you just said the key word. You cannot be spun up in all of this by Giuliani. He's a fucking moron. You know, he can barely, like, not wet his pants.

40:14 Yeah.

40:14 You know, you're not gonna get spun up by Sidney Powell. The only person that can really catalyze this is the person that has the respect that comes with sitting in the seat that's called the presidency of the United States.

40:28 And he's dead.

40:28 And he's the only one. He's the only one. We all know this. Because if Giuliani was running this rally and said, "Let's go storm the Capitol," nobody would have done it. We all know this.

David Sacks 40:39 Look, yeah.

Jason Calacanis 40:41 What do you think about this woman, David? Like, think about the psychology of this person for a second, the humanity of it.

David Sacks 40:47 You know, I'll say something. I think, um... Man, politics is, um, isn't the problem, it's kind of the manifestation of the problem. If you think about how crazy it is that y- I, I posted a tweet about this the other day, 'cause I've been thinking about it a lot. I think it's so crazy that you can show people a TV ad or s- or a Facebook ad and get them to change their mind on what to vote. Like, um, people are kind of shown stuff, and, and the bigger problem is this kind of reductionism that's, um, that's kind of enveloped all of this. You know, if you, if you go back 100 years, I guarantee you people were having deeper, more civil conversations about differences of opinion and ways to govern, and, um, and, and laws, uh, uh, to govern us. And I think, like, you know, it's so easy to put a 30-second kind of reductionist ad, like in front of someone, uh, incite their kind of amygdala to, to, to respond and change their mind about something or push them in some direction. And I think that's the bigger issue with, like, what's been going on, is people are kind of being pushed all the way to one side or pushed all the way to the other side, um, through this, you know, this, this very kind of simple process. There is no dialogue to decide what candidate to vote for or dialogue to decide, um, what path to take. It, it's, it's all insidious, like, "Lock his ass up," you know, "Kill them." Like, everything has become, uh, extremely binary. Um, and the grayscale is really the, the reality. And unfortunately, we've kind of really heard ourselves in this tribalism over objectivism kind of approach to how we, uh, talk as a society and how we debate. Um, and as a result, people are pushed over the edge. Uh, and I think this is a manifestation of that broader problem, which I think is probably linked to the internet and short attention spans and all the shit that's going on.

Jason Calacanis 42:30 Well, this is also why, uh, I think the GOP has just been completely, you know-

David Sacks 42:38 But it's not just the GOP, it's-

Jason Calacanis 42:39 ... dominated now that... But what I'm saying they're all... They, they, we, we should... I think this is a good segue into Georgia, which is-

David Sacks 42:44 That's, yeah. Look, I mean, but you could say the same about AOC, and you could say that AOC is doing the same to the Democratic Party, and they're, they're, uh, you know, equally frustrated with this extremist point of view, or Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders, and they're, you know, capturing the attention.

Jason Calacanis 42:54 Yeah, none of them got the nomination though, right?

David Sacks 42:56 Which is, yeah, but, but, but they were-

Jason Calacanis 42:56 And none of them got cabinet positions.

David Sacks 42:58 But they could have, and they were close, and it was like, "Hey, look-

Jason Calacanis 43:01 ... give everyone a million dollars." "Okay, great." Like, and, "Tax the rich 90%." "Great." Like, it's easy to say, and, and my point is... By the way, I think the root of a lot of this is, um, is people are programmed to be unhappy, right? That, that's how you instigate people to take action. The, the bottom10% of Americans make more money and have a better position in life than the top 10% of Kenyans, um, and it's an incredible statistic if you think about it. Go to dollarstreet.org or dollarstreet.com and you can actually play around and see what different people live like around the world. Yet, in the US, we are told at every strata, whether you're wealthy or, or not wealthy relative to others in the United States, that you should be better off. And it is, um, you know, happiness is the difference between expectation and outcome, and everyone's been set an expectation beyond what they currently have. And as a result, through programmatic work that is done on people in the United States, um, uh, we are being told, "You should be unhappy. Oh, and by the way, here's the short-term solution to resolve it." And it's driving an incredible amount of, um, of behavioral shift, and it really threatens democracy, uh, as we saw this week. And you guys will remember my, my, my big loser for the, political loser for 2020 was the American, uh, democratic institution, uh, and I think we saw that, uh, this week, and I-

Chamath Palihapitiya 44:18 And can I-

David Sacks 44:18 I agree

David Sacks 44:19 with that.

Chamath Palihapitiya 44:19 So on the, o- on the heels of that, can I ask you guys what you think of this? Basically, Pelosi has told Pence, "You have to invoke the 25th Amendment or they're gonna take up impeachment." What do you guys think about that?

Jason Calacanis 44:31 I think it's the right thing to do.

Chamath Palihapitiya 44:33 How do you do that?

Jason Calacanis 44:33 I think they have to be... There has to be a backstop against this. What, I mean, is it possible Trump-

Chamath Palihapitiya 44:37 If he runs in his proceeding, he could run in his preceding seven days.

Jason Calacanis 44:38 ... could do something crazy? You could s- well, here's the thing. I, and I, I, I, I tweeted at Preet Bharara about this. Can you say? If you are impeached, uh, successfully, you can't run again. Um, so I think that this is a, um, a way to put the nail in the coffin of Trump even having the ability to run in 2024, which I think is why the Democrats are on the right side of history on this one. That's my personal belief line. Maybe they sign a non-prosecution agreement with him if he resigns, and that, that's kind of the final, you know-

Chamath Palihapitiya 45:04 That's what I would like to see.

David Sacks 45:06 ... but, J- Jason, why can't you trust voters to make the right decision in 2024?

Jason Calacanis 45:11 I, um... Do I trust voters? I, it's not about trusting the voters. It's more about do I think there should be ramifications for somebody's behavior. That's, that's my fear, is that if he keeps getting away with stuff, he could do something even more violent or dangerous. As Chamath said earlier, it, it's a miracle that 100 people weren't shot dead and this wasn't a firefight. I mean, if somebody takes out a gun at any moment during that and people start shooting, we could have hundreds of people, Americans dead, not just the four who died.

Chamath Palihapitiya 45:43 Hundreds.

Jason Calacanis 45:43 And I think Trump is absolutely capable of doing something in the last 14 days. If he did this 15 days out, why wouldn't he do something else seven days out or three days out? He's a maniac.

David Sacks 45:56 Right. Well-

Jason Calacanis 45:56 I mean, this is insane, deranged, criminal, lunatic behavior. It's completely possible that he could do something more dangerous in the last 14 days. I know that that sounds crazy, but look at what we saw yesterday.

David Sacks 46:09 I think, I, I think there is like a white-knuckle element to the next two weeks. I think we're all kind of white-knuckling it to, you know, to see what's gonna happen. Uh, we have 300 hours to go til Biden is sworn in, and I've got to admit, like I, I'm, I'm counting down the hours, you know?

Jason Calacanis 46:25 It's too insane. Nobody wants to live like this.

David Sacks 46:27 Uh, and every- everybody, everybody's feeling, everybody's feeling that. Um, that being said, I, I just think that... I'm more on, on Free- Freeberg's, um, point of view on this, that we have this insane level of partisan warfare in the US. It's gone to, like, a whole nother level, and I just... And, and, and Trump has definitely made it worse, and the storming of the Capitol is the, you know, is the zenith of it. It's the apex. But, look, the other side's been doing it too, and the question is just how we deescalate this insane partisan warfare.

Jason Calacanis 46:57 I think, I think right in the deescalation, Chamath, isn't Biden like being elected-

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:01 In part, aside-

Jason Calacanis 47:02 ... do you think it is?

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:03 I think it is. Yeah, I think it is.

Jason Calacanis 47:04 It's like we, we picked the most boring candidate who has the most milk toast, middle of the road approach, who, who, uh, Lindsey Graham likes and who traveled the world with. I mean, Lady G loves him.

David Sacks 47:17 Well, to, to the extent Biden has a mandate, this is it. I mean, and he talked about it at the, uh, the, in his victory speech that night, which was, which wa- was, was quite good. It's about bringing people together. Um, now look, I mean, the, the, the issue i- one of the issues is you can't ignore the fact that Democrats for the last four years aga- have waged this insane partisan war against Trump. I mean, let's not even go into the merits, but you had this two-year Mueller witch hunt. You then had this, uh, impeachment, uh, you know, crusade, which, look, if there was a lot of validity to the, uh, uh, impeachment, why wasn't it used as a campaign issue last year? I just think everybody knows that-

Jason Calacanis 47:53 Let me ask you a question-

David Sacks 47:54 ... everybody knows that was hyper-partisan, and, and my point is that, yeah, look. I mean, I think it's a good thing if Biden can deescalate things. That, that is, that is I think why he won the election, is that he was seen as more of a sane alternative.

Jason Calacanis 48:07 Let me, let me ask you a question, Sacks. Do you think it would have been... Do you think if Trump had been impeached for the Ukraine, uh, interference and Pence had taken over, we would not have seen what we were seeing yesterday and the country would have been further along to healing?

David Sacks 48:23 (laughs) Uh, so, you know, no. I mean, Pence would not have invited or asked all of his supporters to come to the Capitol to oppose-

Jason Calacanis 48:31 Okay.

David Sacks 48:32 ... the counting, the, the, the, the counting of the electors. I, look, that was a unique Trump thing for s- you know, he could not accept the loss and had to keep pushing and pushing and pushing-

Jason Calacanis 48:42 Got it.

David Sacks 48:42 ... on this idea that he, that the election was stolen. Okay, but, but-

Jason Calacanis 48:45 So it would have been a good idea to impeach him.

David Sacks 48:47 No, no, it wouldn't. No, it wouldn't.

Jason Calacanis 48:48 Okay.

David Sacks 48:48 Because if you had, if you had impeached Trump, and well, first of all, he was impeached, okay? But if you had voted to convict him-

Jason Calacanis 48:55 Removed from office.

David Sacks 48:55 ... if you had removed him from office and the Senate had voted to convict-... over a phone call, okay? And look, I'm not defending the phone call. I'm not saying the phone call was perfect, okay? I know Trump says it was perf- It was not a perfect phone call, but you can't remove a sitting president for that, okay? Look, it was unseemly or whatever. I think we all know what he was trying to do in that phone call, but you can't remove a sitting president over that. That was hyper-partisan. And so no, the country would be much further apart today if you had done that. And, and so the question now is, well, how do you bring it back together? And I think, I understand where, where, where Chamath is coming from. I think that Trump deserves morally, culpably, uh, I think he, he is-

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:36 Some repudiation.

David Sacks 49:37 Some repudiation.

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:38 Some.

David Sacks 49:38 But, but I don't believe in locking him up or, or prosecuting him. That's only gonna make things much more worse.

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:44 For which crime? (laughs) For this crime? We, we don't even know what else is out there. I mean, I have a f-

Jason Calacanis 49:50 Yeah, it's-

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:50 There's other issues

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:51 out there. Let's talk about Georgia. Let's let ... I think we've nailed the Trump... I mean, unless anybody really feels like continuing to talk about the social path.

David Sacks 49:57 No, no.

Chamath Palihapitiya 49:57 Stacey Abrams.

Jason Calacanis 49:58 Stacey Abrams is a genius. I mean, my gosh, she should be in charge of everything.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:01 Yeah, can we get her on the vaccine roll-out?

David Sacks 50:03 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 50:04 (laughs)

David Sacks 50:04 Well, Trump-

Jason Calacanis 50:05 It's incred- it's incredible.

David Sacks 50:06 S- Stacey Abrams is doing an incredible job on the Democrat side mobilizing turnout, um, but the reason why the Republicans lost Georgia is frankly Trump, I mean, Trump cost them Georgia. Two months ago, Perdue beat Ossoff in that election.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:22 That's right. That's right.

David Sacks 50:22 He won.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:23 He won.

Jason Calacanis 50:23 He won.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:23 That's right.

David Sacks 50:24 And, and he's beaten him before. I think he is, uh, I mean, he's not the most wonderful candidate, but I think he is a better candidate, and he lost because of these antics over the last two months, culminating in that insane phone call that Trump had with the Georgia Secretary of State.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:39 Oh my God, we haven't even talked about that.

David Sacks 50:40 Roethlisberger. Right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:42 I mean, should he be prosecuted for that, Sax?

David Sacks 50:45 Can't you just find me that? Can't you just find me 11,000 votes? Look, I- I just think, you know, I- I don't think it's-

Chamath Palihapitiya 50:49 Which one is more prosecutable, sending people to the Capitol or asking them and begging them to find him 11,000 votes? Which one is more prosecutable to you, Sax, since you're gonna be framing stuff?

Jason Calacanis 50:58 No, wait, let's, let's ... Wait, Jason, hold on. Let, let's move on, let's move away from the whole Trump goes to jail for a second. I just wanted to... I think it's important to talk about Georgia, 'cause I think David, you're gonna make a point.

David Sacks 51:09 Yeah, exactly. I mean, look, I think we're getting hung up too much on the legalities, and let's just talk about what's right and wrong, you know, which we, is what we can agree on, and let, you know, lawyers and prosecutors figure out the legalities. Um, R- Ramesh Ponnuru from National Review had a great quote about Georgia. He said that Perdue and Loeffler could have survived any two of these three, being unimpressive candidates, Georgia shifting purple, and Trump being a maniac. And unfortunately, you had three out of three, and that's why they lost.

Jason Calacanis 51:36 (laughs)

David Sacks 51:36 If, uh, it was a great, it was a great quote. Uh, you know, eh, but you had the Roethlisberger call, you know, "Can't you just find me 11,000 votes" the day before the election, or two days before the election. I mean, that had to push swing voters and undecideds to the Democrats. And the other thing is that Perdue and Loeffler weren't able to make the best argument that they had, which is, "If you vote for us, you end up with split... You, you prevent the Democrats from having all the power in Washington. So unless you wanna give all the power in Washington to a single party, you need to vote for us." That was the best argument for voting for them, 'cause there's a lot of people in this country who believe in splitting their ticket, because they don't trust either party, which is kind of where I'm at. Um, but they were unable to make that argument effectively, because Trump was still hanging on to the idea that he was gonna be president.

Jason Calacanis 52:25 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 52:25 No, I think David, I honestly, I think this comes down to the intelligence of the candidates. Kelly Loeffler's a moron. She's an idiot. Uh, David Perdue's a good old boy. He's an idiot. They're just stupid. This actually speaks to a bigger problem, which is the Republicans could do so much better if they could actually find younger, more vibrant, intelligent people, and instead they find these fucking morons. I don't know where they find them, but you know, they pulled Kelly Loeffler out of some like backstage Dallas beauty pageant and just kind of like fluffed her up and tried to get her to run. She's a moron.

David Sacks 52:56 Loeffler-

Chamath Palihapitiya 52:57 Complete idiot.

David Sacks 52:57 Loeffler was a mistake. Loeffler was a mistake.

Chamath Palihapitiya 52:59 Complete fucking idiot.

Jason Calacanis 53:01 Did you read the story about her with the WNBA?

Chamath Palihapitiya 53:04 Well, I mean, Georgia is full of-

Jason Calacanis 53:05 I mean, it's unbelievable. They basically-

Chamath Palihapitiya 53:06 No, but Georgia, Georgia is full of so many incredible politicians, and they found that idiot.

David Sacks 53:12 That, that, that was a huge mistake. If they had just voted or ... Yeah, I mean, the governor made a huge mistake. They put, they appointed her to the last two months. Uh, I, so I, I agree that she's a particularly weak candidate, but th- the Republicans only needed one of these two el- elections. And Perdue had beaten Ossoff before. I agree with you, he's not necessarily the greatest candidate of all time, but he has proved better than Ossoff in the past, including November. And the reason why he lost two months later is because what's transpired in the last two months. Biden has acted presidential, and Trump has done what he's done, and that, that made all the difference. And, and that, by the way, is why you're seeing the Republicans breaking from Trump. They were already on their way to breaking with him, and then you had this storming of the Capitol.

Jason Calacanis 53:53 David, what are, what are the implications for Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz?

David Sacks 53:57 I, I think, I think this was a blow to them, because I think that what, what they were doing in terms of, uh, you know, o- opposing the, the, the electors, uh, ev- everybody knew it was sort of cynical and-

Jason Calacanis 54:10 Theater.

David Sacks 54:11 It was theater.

Jason Calacanis 54:12 Theater.

David Sacks 54:12 It was performative theater-

Jason Calacanis 54:13 Well said. Well said.

David Sacks 54:13 ... designed to curry favor with Trump so that he might endorse them in 2024 for the nomination. And, and it was, it was, it was opportunistic. And the problem is, it backfired horribly, and you know, people now see it for what it was. And so yeah, I think it's gonna hurt... Ultimately, they tried to do something opportunistic that they thought would help them politically and I think it's gonna hurt them.

Jason Calacanis 54:35 But wait, I have to ask you guys, do you guys know the backstory of Loeffler and the Atlantic Dream, the WNBA team?

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:42 It's ter- Honestly, Jason, I'm gonna get so angry because she is just a complete piece of shit. Please don't... I- I'm ... You can bring it up. I, I think she's just a complete-

Jason Calacanis 54:50 I just don't think Sax and Freeburg are aware of this, but-

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:53 Uh, I think she's a complete piece of shit.

Jason Calacanis 54:55 She basically-

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:56 Go ahead, tell the story.

Jason Calacanis 54:56 It's, it's, basically she was anti-BLM.

55:00 ... and she was writing letters to the NBA, WNBA to not allow the players to, to be vocal about Black Lives Matter with the, you know, after the killing of, um, the murder of George Floyd. And, uh, so what the team did, if you look at that story, is they backed Warnock, uh, they got on a call with him. They refused to say her name, and, uh, they rallied the support of Warnock, uh, who ultimately, uh, beat her and they refused to say her name-

David Sacks 55:30 I just-

Jason Calacanis 55:30 ... ever again.

David Sacks 55:31 If you-

Jason Calacanis 55:31 The players on her own team-

David Sacks 55:33 If you want to see courage, if you want to see courage, the women that play in the WNBA are some of the most incredible people-

Jason Calacanis 55:40 Yes. Humans.

David Sacks 55:41 ... in the world.

Jason Calacanis 55:42 Yeah.

David Sacks 55:42 These, these are women that have basically stopped their athletic careers, stopped fame, you know, stopped all of the attention, in some cases, stopped fortunes, to work on behalf of criminal justice reform, to basically overturn, you know, uh, uh, uh, unjust convictions. These women are incredible.

Jason Calacanis 56:00 Yeah.

David Sacks 56:00 And then to be suppressed to be able to say what was on their mind. Kelly Loeffler is a piece of shit.

Jason Calacanis 56:06 And they basically wore these "Vote Warnock" t-shirts every day at every game. I mean, imagine, and then now, they're, I think going to be forced-

David Sacks 56:16 Bravo to those women.

Jason Calacanis 56:16 Yeah.

David Sacks 56:17 Bravo to those women.

Jason Calacanis 56:17 I give them, uh, Sue Bird, I think, is the, uh, was the leader of the whole movement over there.

David Sacks 56:22 Bravo to her.

Jason Calacanis 56:22 Yeah, bravo to her.

Jason Calacanis 56:24 All right. Moving on from politics. I think we have to talk, Friedberg, about the deployment of the vaccine. Um, I- I did a quick poll on Twitter, and Twitter and the American people have asked that Friedberg, the Queen of Quinoa, (laughs) be responsible for the vaccine distribution going forward.

David Sacks 56:42 Really?

Jason Calacanis 56:42 Da-

David Sacks 56:42 I'm in. Let's do it.

Jason Calacanis 56:43 (laughs) Uh, what are you going to do? Are you-

David Sacks 56:45 I would sure tag... I would, I would, I would get that vaccine into everyone's arms in 75 days. I mean, it would be-

Jason Calacanis 56:51 Yes, you would be blocked and loaded.

David Sacks 56:52 It would be such a stone cold lock.

Jason Calacanis 56:54 Oh, my God. Yeah.

David Sacks 56:55 That would be amazing.

Jason Calacanis 56:56 Yeah. I don't know how that happens though.

David Sacks 56:57 So, Friedberg, what would you do differently? I would love to do that.

Jason Calacanis 56:59 And maybe you could describe... You know, we, we're supposed to be at a million a day. We're at 350,000, trending towards 400,000. We did 1.5 million in 72 hours, according to Fauci at one point, uh, right after the new year. So, we're, we're kind of like halfway where we need to be. What would you do differently? 'Cause the rollout seems... We- we have-

David Sacks 57:18 Well, it's a, it's a, it's a-

Jason Calacanis 57:19 More than 50% are on the shelves still.

David Sacks 57:21 It, it shouldn't be-

Jason Calacanis 57:22 Not in arms.

David Sacks 57:22 It, it is a wartime scenario. When war is happening, you don't go home at 5:00 PM and wake up at 9:00 AM and clock out for an hour for lunch and, you know, you don't, uh, "Oh, well, don't run too fast, you know, you might trip." You don't do any of that. We've created incredible disincentives in the system, by i- in fact, Cuomo put out a million dollar fine if, uh, if you get your vaccine out of line. I mean, think about the disincentive that creates. Now, people are more scared about giving the vaccine to the wrong person than they are incentivized to give the vaccine to the right person. And the reality is, this is a group game. This isn't an individual game. It's not about who gets vaccinated first and you'll live and you'll die. We all need to get vaccinated as a group so that we all have immunity so that this virus stops spreading. It doesn't matter if you're individually vaccinated. It matters if we're all vaccinated 'cause that's the only way we're all going to get out of the economic slump that is truly damaging this country right now. And so, the first step is create a military style operation. Figure out how many feet on the ground, you know, it's, it's all a rate-based system, right? How many are you running per day? And then how do you achieve that objective? And over time, you have your target rate per day, you would scale it up over 75 days or whatever your, your rollout timeframe needs to be, and you would say, "This is how we're gonna get there. We need this number of people giving shots this many minutes apart." And then you go figure out where you're going to give the shots and who's going to give them. Get the vaccines to where they need to get to, take over all the gymnasiums and all the stadiums and all the open sports facilities around the country. People can drive up, stand in line, get a frigging shot. And 65-year-olds get priority for the first 30 days, and then after 30 days, your 65 and over crowd loses their priority and it's open season for who wants to get a shot. You stand in line, you get a shot. Walk in, you got 3.8 million nurses in the United States. You go contract 500,000 of them. You give them a huge frigging one-time bonus to come and run this program. You run 24-hour shifts in the gymnasiums around the country. People come in, they get shots, they get out, takes three minutes. If you're feeling weird, if you have risk of ill- allergies, you go sit in the other room, you wait for two hours, and there's a bunch of roaming nurses keep an eye on you. And you get this thing done. That's it. This is not that complicated. And we can leverage the National Guard to create the infrastructure to support these lines and get these things done. We can go recruit... There are plenty of nurses' associations you can go. People can work overnight shifts and get paid triple overtime, get extra bonuses for doing this. It's a great way to kind of create an economic stimulus around this.... we can get this e- entire country vaccinated in 90 days. And the way that, uh, Israel is doing it is a great model. You know, when they run out of those close-

Jason Calacanis 59:57 Describe that, yeah.

David Sacks 59:58 So at the end of the day, if, uh, you know, they, when you open, when you take these things out of deep freeze, you're at risk of them spoiling at that point, 'cause the mRNA is very, um, you know, it can break. And so it needs to be really cold, and then you gotta give the vaccine very quickly. Otherwise, the mRNA can degrade and it's not effective. So they-

Jason Calacanis 1:00:13 And you have to defrost it in order to give it.

David Sacks 1:00:15 Yes. You defrost it, then it's sitting there. Now you gotta give it within a couple of hours. And if you've got extra doses sitting at the end of the day-

Jason Calacanis 1:00:20 That's super complicated.

David Sacks 1:00:21 What they're doing in Israel is they're looking outside. They grab the pizza guy that's on the bicycle tr- on the bicycle cruising by. They're like, "Do you want a shot?" Come on in." They give him a shot. They grab the next guy. You do not need to track everyone that gets a shot. You do not need everyone to show their ID to get a shot. You do not need to X, Y, and Z. All the disincentives that create friction in the system of rolling out the vaccine need to be completely eliminated. There's no qualifying s- uh, criteria except maybe being 65 and over for the first 30 days. And we prioritize politics, um, over health and safety. We have made it the case that the teachers should get the, the shot first because the teachers' unions created an uproar in California and said they're not gonna go to work unless they... So now, the teachers are gonna get it and the essential workers are gonna get it, which are people that are working in stores and warehouses and other stuff. And meanwhile, the people that can actually die from this, 15% likelihood of death if you're over 85, are not getting it, because they're not technically an essential worker. So the prioritization where we've tried to create these artificial-

Jason Calacanis 1:01:13 So dumb.

David Sacks 1:01:13 ... politically motivated systems for defining who gets the vaccine and who doesn't, it's absolutely killing us, and literally killing us. 4,000 people died yesterday in the United States. And so-

Jason Calacanis 1:01:23 Bonkers.

David Sacks 1:01:23 ... the system is fucked up. The incentives we've... And don't bleep that out, 'cause that's exactly what it is. The disin-

Jason Calacanis 1:01:28 No, leave it fucking in.

David Sacks 1:01:29 The, the disincentives we've created are destroying, um, the rollout. Um, the, uh, the governors getting involved and creating models of prioritization that are politically motivated are killing us. And, and we should centrally plan this thing. War Production Act, make a shit ton of this stuff, grab it all, get 100 million doses distributed into gymnasiums around the country. Get the nurses in there, get the National Guard to organize a line-

Jason Calacanis 1:01:48 This should have been federal. I mean, that's the key. This should have been a federal effort.

David Sacks 1:01:52 2014 s- c- central planning is sometimes needed to get shit done. We did it with the War Production Board during World War II. We did it with the Manhattan Project. We, there, there have been countless e- examples where we've had to centralize planning for a massive short-term event. And this is one of those events. And this needs to be, um, prioritized and organized centrally, and it needs to have the right-minded people on this, not kind of people that are, you know, political operatives and not people that are working 9:00 to 5:00. And-

Jason Calacanis 1:02:18 Well, the good news is-

David Sacks 1:02:19 This is, this is a war, and we need to go win the fucking war.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:22 I mean, the good new is Trump ha-

David Sacks 1:02:24 Can I ask a question?

Jason Calacanis 1:02:24 Trump has time. He's at, he's at Camp David this weekend, so I think he can put some attention to it. Sax (laughs) .

David Sacks 1:02:29 Can I, can I ask a question, Freeberg?

1:02:30 Yeah.

1:02:31 So, you know, uh, w- what do you think about just using markets to distribute the vaccine?

1:02:36 It's a great idea. I think, you know, you have to get the incentives such that time-based systems are the incentive, right? Because the objective here is to get-

1:02:43 Mm-hmm.

1:02:43 ... as many people vaccinated as quickly as possible. So take that being your objective, and then figure out, look, you guys are gonna get $1000 per person vaccinated in the first 15 days, and then you're gonna get $500, and then se- you know, whatever the, the transition is. And then anyone can sign up to buy doses at a, at a cost so they, they, they have skin in the game, right? That's an alternative. So let Walgreens and CVS buy 50 million doses, and then they're incentivized to get them rolled out as quickly as possible. Let them do the work, sure. Um, and frankly, if a few people have anaphylactic reactions across the country, that's just the reality. In war, you have some casualties. This can't be perfect. It has to be good enough to win the war. Um, and we're-

1:03:20 Well, by, by the way, when, when somebody goes into anaphylactic shock, just to clarify that-

1:03:24 You get an EpiShot.

1:03:24 All you have to do is... Yeah, you get an EpiShot. It's not fatal if you have an EpiPen.

1:03:28 That's right. And so, um, so, you know, when you get a, uh, when you get a, um, uh, you know, a vaccine, if you get one of these vaccines, a 40% to 60% of people are gonna have some sort of reaction. You're gonna have a fever, 'cause these are, you, these produce a ton of proteins in your body relative to what you would normally, you know, kind of experience with a, with a dead vaccine. There are a lot of vaccines in your bo- there's a lot of protein in your body. Your body reacts to get rid of that protein. You produce all these antibodies very quickly. So you end up having a fever. You end up having some, some allergic response, or headaches, or flushing, or whatever. So everyone's gonna have, a lot of people are gonna have some sort of thing. So one of the concerns is they wanna have nurses available, and they wanna have this feel like a controlled medical environment. But again, the reality is, we have to sack it up. We have to accept the fact that people are gonna be uncomfortable. It is not gonna be an easy, simple vaccine like you get the flu vaccine at Walgreens. It's gonna be a little bit uncomfortable. You may not have five or six nurses surrounding you and getting all the TLC that Americans have become used to getting every time we, you know, brush our friggin' teeth. And, uh, and we're gonna have some people go into anaphylactic shock, and they're gonna get EpiPen shots. And, and, you know, uh, and we shouldn't be charging $1500 for EpiPen shots is another, you know, i- important point. But I think the market-based model could work as well. So either one-

1:04:39 Hasn't Israel done this right? I mean, Israel, they, they moved the old people to the front of the line, but anybody can get in line. If they've got extra doses that day, they just keep sticking people. They keep jabbing people-

1:04:50 All day long.

1:04:50 ... until they run out.

1:04:51 That's right.

1:04:51 All day long until they run out.

1:04:52 That's right. And they end-

1:04:52 And so-

1:04:53 ... they're, they're probably at 20% of the population by now.

1:04:56 Yeah. I, I, so I, I'm sure we all agree with everything you're saying.

Jason Calacanis 1:04:59 It speaks to an enormous amount of political incompetence. I mean, it's really, really just unbelievable why we just don't have smarter people in charge of these things.

David Sacks 1:05:11 But Sax, I, I just want to ask you, because, you know, there is the conservative argument on this, which is, um, you know, states... The federal government shouldn't be doing everything, and states need to kind of manage their, their populace and manage, you know, what, what goes on locally. You know, what is the conservative... I'm not asking you this and I'm not attacking you. I'm just asking, like, what is the conservative argument for not doing central planning and central, um, organization around vaccine distribution, and delegating it to states? And, you know, are, are there, you know, do you think that there's a case against, um, you know, for that, that that's pretty strong in, within the Republican Party and within kind of conservative ranks?

1:05:45 No. I, I, I don't, I, I think if there's a conservative point of view on this, it would just be that let, let markets distribute the vaccine. They'll do a much better job. I don't, you know, I think whether it's federal or state, the question is who's more incompetent? And I'm not really sure-Um, (laughs) I mean, I- I- I think the problem right now is that when you make vaccine distribution fundamentally political, then the debate becomes about exactly who's- what is your position gonna be exactly in line? As opposed to just running the most number of people through the process as quickly as possible. We're getting ourselves so twisted up in knots over making sure that the exact right person is in line that we're having, you know, vaccine go to waste. You know, we're having-

Jason Calacanis 1:06:26 And just to put that in context-

David Sacks 1:06:28 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:06:28 ... 21 million-plus doses have been distributed in the United States. 5.9 have made their way into people's arms. In other words, there are 15 millions, over 75% of doses have not gone in people's arms. And in California, we have distributed 5.85% of the population's vaccines, but we've only put 1.3 in people's arms. So we are literally, uh, 4X where we should be. We're at 25% of where we should be. It is absolutely unbelievable that this is happening.

David Sacks 1:07:03 And meanwhile-

1:07:03 If the government, if the government's-

1:07:05 Yeah.

1:07:05 ... if the government stopped trying to do anything except, you know... Look, it- it did Operation Warp Speed. That actually did help get vaccines done faster, but if you just-

1:07:13 By the way, that was just, that was just money, to your point, Sax. All they did was create a market where they basically pre-bought all the vaccines, whether or not they were gonna work, and then f- funded the market to go and produce them early. That's all that it was. So to your point, that... O- Operation Warp Speed, for everyone thinking it's some massive, centrally controlled effort, it was a market-based incentive. They put a couple-

Jason Calacanis 1:07:31 It wasn't the Manhattan Project, is what you're saying.

David Sacks 1:07:33 They, they put up a couple billion-

1:07:34 It was-

1:07:34 ... yeah-

1:07:34 ... a check.

1:07:35 ... they, they put up a couple billion dollars and said to all these pharma companies, "Go produce the vaccine, and if it works, we'll buy 'em. If it doesn't work, throw 'em away. But let's get production going." And that was it.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:07:45 Can I, can I use this as a segue? Like, I mean, what we're seeing is sort of, we have a bunch of elected officials. We give them, you know, an enormous amount of responsibility. They also get this implied power. And then you just, you see sometimes in these acute moments, they're totally derelict. Then, I just wanna move off of s- vaccines for a second. Then you get an elected official who is not acutely incompetent, but it seems broadly, grossly, and consistently incompetent, and I wanna talk about Chesa Boudin. And I, I wanna use-

David Sacks 1:08:20 Oof.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:08:21 ... Sax's article which, to be very honest, David, was probably one of the most incredibly well-written things-

Jason Calacanis 1:08:28 Well done.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:08:29 ... you have ever created. I don't know, Jason, do we have show notes? Can we put it in-

Jason Calacanis 1:08:34 We'll put it in the show notes, yeah. We'll put a link in the show notes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:08:36 Okay.

Jason Calacanis 1:08:36 Um, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:08:37 It is so fucking good what you wrote. If everybody, folks who are listening have a chance to read David's...

Jason Calacanis 1:08:44 Killer DA.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:08:45 The Killer DA. Um, but it basically, you know, starts with the profile of this young woman, seemed like an incredible woman that was killed by this, uh, drunk driver. Uh, but anyways, David, do you wanna talk about it and just-

David Sacks 1:08:55 Yeah, I mean, so for, uh, the last... With- I'd say for the last couple of months, I've been following the San Francisco, uh, l- a couple of San Francisco Police Department accounts on Twitter. And I was noticing these extraordinary tweets, which were getting retweeted a lot, about how they ca- kept, uh, r- arresting and then having to let go of all- all these criminals who were committing burglaries and other crimes. And you could see the frustration of the police department boiling off these tweets. And, you know, b- basically they were subtweeting this new district attorney that we've had, Chesa Boudin, who was elected, uh, is- he's been in office about a year. He was elected at the end of 2019. And so I started doing a little bit of research and then we had this horrible New Year's Eve killing of this, you know, uh, wonderful young woman, uh, Ha- Hannah Abe, who came to America from Japan for college and stayed here for work. She was just 27 years old. She gets killed by, uh, by, by a- a- a criminal, someone who was released, who was paroled by Chesa Boudin, uh, back in April. He had been in jail for armed robbery. Uh, Chesa, uh, released him as part of a plea bargain, and then he was arrested five more times for stealing cars and other crimes, most recently two weeks ago. And the DA refused to press charges and that, that's the reason he was out on New Year's Eve. He stole a car and then there was this hit-and-run where he killed Hannah and another woman. And so, you know, I had already been noticing this issue, and so I started doing some, some research. And I, I have a research assistant helping me with this. It's the only way I could put something like this together. And we went pretty deep and we realized that the death of, of Hannah wasn't just an accident or an act of negligence by this DA. It was part of an overall philosophy of decarceration that he has. Bef- he, his- i- his background is very interesting. He was the child of parents who were in the Weather Underground, who, when he was just a baby, committed armed robbery and were part of the murder, which was-

Jason Calacanis 1:10:59 Uh, David.

David Sacks 1:11:00 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:11:00 David, say the words. They were domestic terrorists.

David Sacks 1:11:02 Yeah, they were, they were, that's right. They were domestic terrorists. Uh, they participated in an armed robbery against a Brink's truck which resulted in the-

Jason Calacanis 1:11:08 And these weren't domestic terrorists that were competent when compared to what we saw yesterday in the Capitol. Like, these are highly capable domestic terrorists, to be clear, and I don't know-

David Sacks 1:11:18 I, I don't know, I don't know how capable they were. Their, their robbery resulted in the death of two police officers and a Brink's guard, and they were put in prison. His mother spent