Trump AI Speech & Action Plan, DC Summit Recap, Hot GDP Print, Trade Deals, Altman Warns No Privacy

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:00 How much founder mode did you do?

Jason Calacanis 0:01 Are you saying that I popped an app? I need an app right now. Hold on.

David Sacks 0:04 You don't need anything right now. Are you chewing it? What are you doing?

Jason Calacanis 0:07 No, you put this nicotine patch, you upper deck it, releases it, and then you become a god.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:12 Is that the app that Tucker sent you?

Jason Calacanis 0:14 Yeah. Tucker and I are gonna do a crossover.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:16 Wait, did you work out a side hustle here?

David Sacks 0:18 Yes, he did.

Jason Calacanis 0:18 I haven't presented it to the group for a vote yet. You're preempting me.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:21 Wait a second. Are you being paid for this plug right now?

David Sacks 0:24 Yes, he is.

Jason Calacanis 0:24 I'm just saying, if you use the promo code J-CAL-

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:27 Wait a second. Wait a second.

Jason Calacanis 0:29 Promo code J 15-

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:32 Okay, he broke up, which is good.

David Sacks 0:33 Is he on drugs? Is he taking drugs? (laughs) He's on drugs.

Jason Calacanis 0:36 No, I'm not on drugs.

David Sacks 0:37 And, and he's doing a deal with Tucker Carlson.

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:38 This is like a PSA for not taking this stuff. You're so out of control.

David Sacks 0:42 (laughs) Did you take two of them? What are you doing?

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:44 I thought this stuff relaxes you.

David Sacks 0:46 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:46 What the hell is going on? Your internet's on the fritz too.

Jason Calacanis 0:50 No, I fixed it. I fixed it. I fixed it. That was Putin. Putin got my internet.

David Sacks 0:55 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 0:55 Uh, Putin's getting my-

Chamath Palihapitiya 0:56 My God.

David Sacks 0:56 What flavor are you eating or using?

Jason Calacanis 0:59 Oh, today is chilled mint. Today is chilled mint. Ugh.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:01 You don't seem very chill. You seem-

David Sacks 1:03 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:04 This is the first one I hocked.

David Sacks 1:04 You seem agitated and angry. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:07 No, I'm trying to get us back to that original all in energy where we laughed and we had fun and we enjoyed each other's company.

David Sacks 1:14 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:14 No, but J-Cal, seriously, do you have a side deal going on with app right now?

Jason Calacanis 1:18 No, I don't have a deal yet. I don't know if I have a deal. There's no deal.

David Sacks 1:23 I'm texting Tucker now just to cut you.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:25 (laughs)

Narrator 1:27 I'm going all in. Don't let your winner slide. Rain man, David Sacks. I'm going all in. And I said, we open sourced it to the fans and they've just gone crazy with it.

David Sacks 1:40 Love you, man. Nice.

Narrator 1:40 Queen of quinoa. I'm going all in.

Jason Calacanis 1:44 All right, everybody. Welcome back to what Jensen from NVIDIA has confirmed is the number one podcast in the world. Yes, the All In Podcast is here. We had an amazing time in, uh, DC last week, and we'll get into that. But, uh, hey, Freeberg, you crushed it on all those incredible speakers last week. 10 days, you had to pull off that event, Freeberg, and you did it. Chamath and I just parachuted in to DC last week for the AI summit. Sax was busy working with POTUS to get all those executive orders done. Take us behind the scenes, Freeberg. All of these incredible speakers. You got Lisa from AMD. You had Lutnick, I liked him. Bessant, I liked him.

David Sacks 2:30 We had to say no to a lot of tech company CEOs that found out about the event and wanted to speak on stage. So, there was a big kind of cutoff that we had to make around making sure that we got our message across. I think if you watch the content, we talked briefly about it at the beginning, but the focus was really on trying to dispel the negative AI narrative and myth-

Jason Calacanis 2:52 Hm.

David Sacks 2:52 ... that AI is just here to destroy jobs because there's this big economic boom that's happening both with respect to new industries that are emerging, which is why we showcased Hadrian and others, but then also the infrastructure needed to support the AI race with data centers, chips, mining, and energy. And so we highlighted each of those four industries. And then the cabinet people found out about it and wanted to get involved. So, we were unfortunately squeezing people on and off stage. (laughs) It's kinda crazy to tell the Secretary of Treasury he has to get off the stage because he's passed his 20-minute allocation. But, uh, we had to line everything up so that the president could get his Secret Service detail to clear the stage and get set up in time. That's why we were rushing everyone. But man, what a week, what a rush. It was awesome. Thanks to David Sacks for the leadership and pulling it all together, bringing those folks to the table. And Sax, congrats on getting your EO signed and your action plan published. That was pretty cool. Pretty awesome to meet the president and meet all those cabinet members and have all of this day come together because of the work you've been doing. (laughs) How does it feel? (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 3:55 Sax, how are you doing in the afterglow there? I can see that you're in the afterglow. You sent me a picture of the four besties with our credible 47th president. Uh, how are you feeling right now?

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:06 (laughs) Are you gonna put that on the screen?

Jason Calacanis 4:08 I mean-

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:08 Maybe later.

Jason Calacanis 4:09 ... can we have it? I don't, I don't know if that's allowed. Can, are we allowed to put that on the screen? I don't know what the protocol is.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:14 Yeah, I think we can.

Jason Calacanis 4:15 Yeah. I mean, I haven't gotten my picture. Um, I did notice that I was... Unfortunately, when they took the picture of the four of us with the president, somehow I got cropped out by accident.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:24 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 4:24 I think maybe they weren't using a wide lens.

David Sacks 4:26 Wait, Jason, what was it like for you to meet the president? 'Cause just for the audience, we all stood in line and then we took-

Jason Calacanis 4:31 Yes.

David Sacks 4:31 ... a photo with the president backstage, and then we did a photo with the four of us. But Jason, when you had your moment with the president, what did you say? Did you ask him about immigration? Did you ask him about climate change?

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:40 I have your photo by the way. I have your photo with the president-

Jason Calacanis 4:42 Oh, fantastic.

Chamath Palihapitiya 4:43 ... on my phone.

David Sacks 4:44 Did you bring up solar panels with him? Like, what was your big moment all about?

Jason Calacanis 4:48 I didn't know we were taking a picture. That was like sprung on me. So, I was like, "Oh, we're taking a picture." So, my brother Josh, who runs security for us, was like, "You, they need you in the back to take a picture with the president." And I was like, "Yeah, I'm good." I, I gotta, I gotta prepare for, uh, you know, some, some segment.

David Sacks 5:05 Oh, you were gonna pass?

Jason Calacanis 5:06 Well, I thought he was joking with me.

David Sacks 5:08 Oh.

Jason Calacanis 5:08 So, I was like, "Yeah, yeah, I'm good. I'm good." (laughs) He's like, "No, no, I'm serious. (laughs) You're, you're taking pictures with the president."

David Sacks 5:13 Uh-huh.

Jason Calacanis 5:13 I was like, "We are?" (laughs) Okay. So, I ran back-

David Sacks 5:16 Uh-huh.

Jason Calacanis 5:16 ... and, uh, they put us in line. And then I was like, "I think I'm getting punked here," because they kept repeating to me, "Okay, Jason, you're last, you're last." And they, you know, and I know you guys like to put in a joke or two. So, you know, I just got in line last and it's obviously, you know, it's, it's a big deal to take a picture with the president. So, I didn't want to, um, you know, use that time inappropriately or anything. So, I just said, "It's a pleasure to meet you."

Chamath Palihapitiya 5:41 That's hard.

David Sacks 5:41 Just say it already, you like him.

Jason Calacanis 5:43 That's it.

David Sacks 5:43 Just say it. Just let's get it over with.

Jason Calacanis 5:44 I mean, listen, I-

David Sacks 5:44 Get to the end, you like him. You tried not to, you know, you're all Mr. Fucking big shot, Mr. Big Talk. And then you got in front of him, and you like him. Just say it.

Jason Calacanis 5:55 Uh, what I will say is...

David Sacks 5:57 Jesus Christ. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 5:59 No, I'm not gonna say I like him or dislike him.

David Sacks 6:00 What a jerk. What a jerk. You're such a goon.

Jason Calacanis 6:01 I, I, I had a great time.

David Sacks 6:03 Honestly, you're such a predictable-

Jason Calacanis 6:05 I had a great time in DC. (laughs)

David Sacks 6:05 You're a predictable goon. You know what you are? That's what you are.

Jason Calacanis 6:07 You don't even know what good is. Okay, stop rizz.... stop aura farming. You don't know what gooning is, okay?

David Sacks 6:13 Aura farming?

Jason Calacanis 6:13 No. I had a great time meeting him.

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:14 Aura farming?

Jason Calacanis 6:14 It was a great event.

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:15 What the hell does that mean?

Jason Calacanis 6:16 Aura farming, obviously. He's trying to get his riz up to impress his kids. But, um, it was great-

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:22 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 6:22 ... and I didn't know what to do with the pictures.

David Sacks 6:24 Just say you like him-

Jason Calacanis 6:24 So he did the thumb.

David Sacks 6:24 ... and we can move on.

Jason Calacanis 6:26 I- (laughs) What do you think of his speech, Jakob?

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:30 After he gave you a shoutout.

Jason Calacanis 6:31 I like-

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:32 Jason won't even ack- after the President gave you a shoutout.

Jason Calacanis 6:34 I don't know about love.

David Sacks 6:35 He said, "Even Jason." How many times have you listened to that clip over and over? How many times?

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:40 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 6:41 (laughs)

David Sacks 6:42 How many times?

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:42 All right. Let's play the clip, Nick.

David Sacks 6:42 How many people have you shared that with? How many people-

Chamath Palihapitiya 6:44 Go ahead and play the clip.

Jason Calacanis 6:44 Play the clip. Play the clip.

Donald Trump 6:45 I want to also, uh-

Jason Calacanis 6:47 Oh, no.

Donald Trump 6:48 Say hello and thanks to Chamath and his wonderful wife, Nat. Thank you very much for being here. Thank you very much. It was great seeing you-

Jason Calacanis 6:56 Okay.

Donald Trump 6:58 ... again. (crowd cheering) Great couple. David Friedberg and, uh, even as we know, Jason Calacanis. (crowd cheering)

David Sacks 7:07 Even. That's funny. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 7:08 I say even.

Donald Trump 7:08 Thank you, Jason.

Jason Calacanis 7:10 Even. That's pretty funny.

Donald Trump 7:12 Thank you, Jason. I appreciate that. Yeah, he's a good person.

Jason Calacanis 7:16 I mean, it's a good person.

Chamath Palihapitiya 7:16 He called you a good person.

Jason Calacanis 7:17 He called me a good person, Jakob.

David Sacks 7:19 Call you a good person.

Jason Calacanis 7:19 So, here we are.

David Sacks 7:19 What president- what president's ever called you a good person before? Come on.

Jason Calacanis 7:22 I mean, it's- it's obviously, like, surreal for all of us, I think, to be this close to the administration and then for Sachs to be part of it. What I will say is, you have to give a lot of credit to this administration for the velocity they're going, what they're accomplishing, even if you disagree with certain items on the margins, and their ability to engage with leaders doing important work. And if we compare that to Biden and Kamala, like, they weren't even letting people-

David Sacks 7:52 So you like him?

Jason Calacanis 7:52 ... come to the White House.

David Sacks 7:53 Is z- is z- like, so you like him?

Jason Calacanis 7:54 I love this administration. I love the administration. I l- I like Trump.

David Sacks 7:58 This is a cabinet of CEOs.

Jason Calacanis 8:00 Let me just say this, I'm not in love with Trump. I'm in like with Trump. That's where I'm at. I'm not in love with Trump. I'm in like with Trump.

David Sacks 8:08 But what better team has ever been put together? It is a cabinet of CEOs. It is a cabinet of managers.

Jason Calacanis 8:13 Absolutely. Absolutely.

David Sacks 8:14 It is a cabinet of people who know how to get shit done. And every time I go there, I'm impressed by this cabinet. I pull my hair out when I meet members of Congress.

Jason Calacanis 8:19 So will you admit that you're pro-Trump finally, Friedberg? You've been splitting it. You've been dancing around the issue. Are you full, 100% in support of Trump? You wanna sit here and put me on the spot? I put you on the spot.

David Sacks 8:30 I support my president. I support the president.

Jason Calacanis 8:32 Okay. So you voted for him and you love Trump. You voted for him and you love Trump.

David Sacks 8:37 I love what he's doing.

Jason Calacanis 8:38 And you voted for him.

David Sacks 8:40 And I have issues with the spending and that's not been resolved. So like I said before-

Jason Calacanis 8:44 Okay. Okay, great. Here we are, folks.

David Sacks 8:45 My full-throated endorsement will come around when Doge actions are taken seriously and/or the White House puts pressure on Congress to take action on spending and the budget.

Jason Calacanis 8:54 Okay, fair enough.

David Sacks 8:54 That- that's the biggest issue.

Jason Calacanis 8:54 What is everybody's favorite moment? Favorite other than Trump, you know, being absolutely amazing, great speech. He's h- he's hilarious, whatever. But put POTUS outside that because it's hard to compete with the President of the United States. Sachs, did you have a couple-

Chamath Palihapitiya 9:08 I'll give you a couple.

Jason Calacanis 9:08 ... of favorite moments? Give us a couple favorite moments there.

Chamath Palihapitiya 9:10 First of all, I think we should talk about the substance of the speech, because I think this was the first speech that President Trump has given on AI since the AI boom began. He's- he's spoken about it before, but this was a full-length policy speech and he declared that the United States was in an AI race with- it's a global competition. I think the- the language that he used was reminiscent of how President John F. Kennedy declared that America was in a space race. In a similar way, President Trump declared that we had to win the AI race. I think you could argue that the AI race is more important than the space race. It's gonna reshape the global economy. It's gonna determine who the superpowers are of the 21st century. And President Trump was really clear that we had to win it, and that he was going to support a strategy for winning it. And then he laid out what some of those key pillars are. Number one was- was innovation. We have to get the red tape out of the way and let our geniuses cook. And clearly was very supportive to a lot of the CEOs and entrepreneurs in the crowd. Number two is infrastructure. He touted the hundreds of billions of dollars of investments in energy and power generation and grid upgrades and data centers that he's supporting. And then, he also supported AI exports. He said that we have to make America's tech stack the global standard. So I think those were really important messages and then on top of that, I think there was also some parts of the speech that maybe have gotten less attention but are also important, where he said that it's not only important that we win, he said it's important how we win. And he sort of mentioned three non-negotiables here. Number one was that American workers have to be at the center of the prosperity that we create. Number two is that the AI models that the government procures and buys must be free of ideological bias, so no woke AI. And he also signed an executive order to prohibit woke AI in the federal government, but we can talk about that in a second. That probably was my favorite moment.

Jason Calacanis 11:10 That was your favorite moment? Okay.

Chamath Palihapitiya 11:11 And then- that was my favorite moment. And then the third-

Jason Calacanis 11:13 That was the red meat moment. I thought that was like the-

Chamath Palihapitiya 11:14 That was the red meat, yeah.

Jason Calacanis 11:15 Yeah, that was the red meat for the base, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 11:16 Yeah, the third thing is he- he did say that we do wanna prevent our technologies from being misused or stolen by malicious actors and look, we- we are gonna monitor for emerging and unforeseen risks. So, you know, we're not gonna disregard the risks. But he added this really good line in the speech about how even though AI, look, it's- it's a daunting technology because it's so powerful. And like any revolutionary technology like that, it can be used for bad as well as good. But the- the daunting nature of it is all the more reason why we have to do it in the United States. Why the United States has to be the pioneer and the leader is 'cause we don't want the power of that technology being developed in other parts of the world. At- at least other parts of the world are gonna have it, but we wanna be the ones on the cutting edge who are defining it and leading it.

Jason Calacanis 12:01 Fantastic. Okay. So-

Chamath Palihapitiya 12:02 So I think it was a- it was a really important speech. I think this idea of an AI race that is similar to the space race, I think is gonna be the dominant frame-... on AI policy for years to come.

Jason Calacanis 12:14 Well, it's pretty clear, you know, this presidency, this term is gonna be earmarked, I think, by four key initiatives: AI, crypto, immigration, and tariffs. And I think that feels like what they're locking into as what's important for the next three and a half years. I think you would agree with that, and it's just great that you're spearheading and helping the president with two of those four. And just, I, the velocity to me is what's super impressive. Any way you could take us behind the, the scenes of how this stuff is getting done so quickly? It feels like there's some operational cadence here that we didn't see in his first term, certainly didn't see in the Biden term. But there's a, there's a cadence here that's different. Yeah, startup speed? H- h- how is that getting driven?

Chamath Palihapitiya 13:02 Well, yeah, we call it, he's working at tech speed. I just think that the president's constantly working. I mean, he's just so energetic. I mean, he basically works, like, two full workdays. I think it's well-known that he doesn't need a lot of sleep and he's, continues to work late into the night, and I just think his energy propels everything forward. I also think that there's a very cohesive team at the White House-

Jason Calacanis 13:26 Hmm.

Chamath Palihapitiya 13:27 ... under the Chief of Staff, Susie Wiles. I think it's very important. I think she runs a tight ship. And then you've got the deputy chief of staffs under her, and I think most of these people have been working together for a long time and it's a team that works well together, and it just feels very coherent and-

Jason Calacanis 13:44 Yeah, it's great.

Chamath Palihapitiya 13:44 ... cohesive to me. So I think-

Jason Calacanis 13:47 Chamath-

Chamath Palihapitiya 13:47 ... it's a very effective team.

Jason Calacanis 13:48 It does feel like that. The pace is great. It means you're gonna get more shots on goal and you'll be able to try more things and, and get more accomplished, li- just like we see in startups. Chamath, outside of the president's talk, we'll go around the horn here, top two or three moments from the discussions, just lightning round here, rapid fire. What do you got? Top two or three moments for you, Chamath, just in the discussions that were enlightening to you, inspiring to you, notable to you?

David Friedberg 14:11 I came out of it very motivated. I think that the combination of the speech, the executive orders, and the clarity of the Big Beautiful Bill now give those of us that are in these markets a ton of runway to go and execute. And so those things reinforced by the various members of the cabinet, I think were very important. That was one. And then the second thing were the market commentary from both Lisa Su and Jensen, I thought was really valuable.

Jason Calacanis 14:47 Hmm.

David Friedberg 14:48 And then the third was Chris Wright and Doug Burgum talking about energy. And I tweeted this yesterday, but we are sort of back to basics almost in a sense, where, in the absence of power, I think AI is, is not going to be the thing that we think it can be. So that's gonna create an enormous amount of appetite by the federal government to do deals and get players on the field, and that's-

Jason Calacanis 15:14 Mm.

David Friedberg 15:14 ... to me very exciting. So yeah, I came away really, really risk-on, I guess, is best way to say it.

Jason Calacanis 15:22 I love it. Friedberg, do you have two or three moments, outside of the president's speech, obviously, that's the pinnacle there, so let's just go below the pinnacle. What were the other two or three moments for you that were salient, inspiring, notable?

David Sacks 15:35 I thought Jensen did a great job. I don't know what you guys thought, but he is very compelling and has a incredible, uh, vision and view on where AI is taking us, where it's headed, and what the challenges are. So I really appreciated him taking the time to come and join us. Last minute, he rearranged his schedule to come out for it, and it was great. By the way, on the point on energy, which I still think is the biggest unsolved issue right now in America besides the, uh, the federal deficit and the debt problem, Chris Wright agreed to rearrange his schedule to come and join us at the All-In Summit in September-

Jason Calacanis 16:11 Oh, great.

David Sacks 16:11 ... to continue the conversation. We didn't get enough time to talk about it, so we are gonna hear more from Chris, particularly, with a particular focus, which is what I wanted to spend time on, and we didn't get a chance last week, on nuclear, and where are we. 'Cause he actually is, it's very passionate, like he said at the thing, it's where he's spending most of his time right now, and I think it's very good to hear the deep dive on where we are in the cycle on trying to accelerate nuclear energy deployment in the United States.

Jason Calacanis 16:34 Sak, same question to you. After POTUS, you got two or three moments that

Jason Calacanis 16:39 stood out?

Chamath Palihapitiya 16:39 Let's just talk about the executive orders for a second, because I think it's pretty cool that the president of United States signed three executive orders at the All-In Summit that we just hosted. (laughs) I mean, that was pretty amazing. One of them was to promote AI exports because we want the American tech stack to be, become the global standard. The second was around AI infrastructure to make permitting easier so that we can help solve those energy problems you were talking about, Friedberg. And then the third one was on preventing woke AI in the federal government, and that, to me, is probably my personal favorite because we spent a couple years on this show talking about how, when we were talking about woke, you're really talking about censorship, right? We were talking about censoring people's views based on, uh-

Jason Calacanis 17:21 Bias.

Chamath Palihapitiya 17:22 ... i- ideological bias, ideological dogmas. We saw what was happening in social media before Elon bought X that helped bring things back. But we were on a track, I think, before President Trump's election, to repeat that whole social media censorship apparatus in the form of AI bias or AI censorship. And we saw this with the whole Black George Washington and where some AI models were saying it was worse to misgender someone than-

Jason Calacanis 17:51 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 17:51 ... to have a global thermonuclear war.

Jason Calacanis 17:53 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 17:54 And this wasn't an accident, because if you go back to the Biden executive order on AI, there was something like 20 pages of language on there encouraging DEI values to be infused into AI models.

Jason Calacanis 18:05 Mm.

Chamath Palihapitiya 18:06 So again, we were on track to repeat all the social media censorship, all the trust and safety stuff...... in this new world of AI. But it would have been even more insidious because at least when someone gets censored, you kind of find out about it.

Jason Calacanis 18:20 It's explicit. It's not-

Chamath Palihapitiya 18:21 It's explicit.

Jason Calacanis 18:22 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 18:22 But with AI, it would have been worse because you wouldn't have even known. It would just be there rewriting history in real time to serve a current political agenda. It would have been brainwashing our kids.

Jason Calacanis 18:32 And people trust these AIs more than they should. I mean, these things are making a prediction of the next word coming. This is not like God-given truth here. And so, Freeburg, you wanted to interject-

David Sacks 18:44 Sacks.

Jason Calacanis 18:44 ... there about this one? Because this is-

David Sacks 18:46 Yes.

Jason Calacanis 18:46 Actually, I'll be honest, Sacks. I'm surprised you're saying this was the most important one to you. I like that you clarified it because it was the one that was mocked or kind of like people were like, "What? Why is this important?" And I think you made a good case for why it's important. Freeburg, your response? Yeah.

David Sacks 18:59 But, Sacks, this is not about broadly making, quote, "AI" non-ideological. Private companies should still have the right through freedom of speech or freedom of expression or freedom to operate to make AI that does whatever they want it to do. What the EO was, was that the federal government would not procure ideologically biased AI.

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:19 Correct.

David Sacks 19:19 Is that correct?

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:19 Yes, exactly.

Jason Calacanis 19:20 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:20 No, we're, we're aware-

David Sacks 19:21 Just to make sure that, that the federal government is not trying to instruct private companies how to operate.

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:26 Right.

David Sacks 19:26 It's simply saying, "If you want to sell to us, this-"

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:28 Yes.

David Sacks 19:28 "... these are the rules of the road."

Jason Calacanis 19:29 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:30 Yeah, su-... That's true.

Jason Calacanis 19:30 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:31 So we were very careful about the First Amendment issues. And you're right, that if a private company wants to put out a biased AI product, we're not gonna tell people they can't use it if they want to.

David Sacks 19:41 Right. And it could work, it could be successful. People might like it, yada, yada, right?

Jason Calacanis 19:44 Yeah. We're just saying-

David Sacks 19:45 Sure.

Jason Calacanis 19:45 ... that the federal government w- is not gonna spend-

David Sacks 19:47 Right.

Jason Calacanis 19:47 ... taxpayer money buying-

David Sacks 19:50 Right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 19:50 ... AI models that have compromised their accuracy and quality because they're beholden to some, you know, ideological agenda.

Jason Calacanis 19:58 Which is similar to the approach with the universities, right? "Hey, listen, you could have a biased university. We're just not gonna fund it. We're not participating." I think it's, it's quite reasonable in that way. And by the way-

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:08 Yeah, and I would just say that, you know, we were a lot more careful about this than the Biden administration was when they required that DEI be inserted into all these models. They didn't distinguish between public and private money or government procurement versus-

Jason Calacanis 20:21 You can-

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:21 ... private models. So they just, they were trying to suffuse DEI into everything. And what we're looking for here is just neutrality, right? We're looking for a lack of ideological bias. The first step was to get rid of that Biden EO, which the president did his first week in office. This goes a little bit further, and it's a little bit of a shot across the bow of these Silicon Valley companies saying, "Look, you need to play it straight. You need to be ideologically unbiased."

Jason Calacanis 20:45 As the default.

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:46 As the default. When you sell to the government, you can't insert your values at the expense of accuracy. Look, at the end of the day, accuracy and truth-seeking is the standard, right?

Jason Calacanis 20:57 That's the goal.

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:57 You can measure-

Jason Calacanis 20:58 Should be.

Chamath Palihapitiya 20:58 That's the goal. So we don't want the quality, accuracy, and truth-seeking to be sacrificed because of these ideological biases.

David Sacks 21:06 Sacks, are you still, are you still seeing that? Or like when you say these Silicon Valley companies, I mean, is this still kind of a widespread concern or widespread deployment from your point of view where you're sitting? Like, are you still seeing a lot of the models being trained on ideological systems that, you know, are preferential to one group and not to another?

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:24 I think it was a much bigger concern six months ago.

David Sacks 21:26 Right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:26 And I think there's been such a huge vibe shift since President Trump's election and taking office-

David Sacks 21:31 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:31 ... that like the-

David Sacks 21:31 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:31 ... woke stuff is sort of going away on its own. But, uh, and I think that's the trajectory we're headed. But it was something-

David Sacks 21:37 But you still think it's important enough to make sure that there's an EO on it?

Chamath Palihapitiya 21:39 Yeah, it's like, "Look, this is to make sure this thing doesn't come back from the dead." I think that there's been a huge vibe shift since President Trump's election, and woke is definitely falling out of favor, and it seems to be going away on its own. But we could still get, you know, Orwellian outcomes with AI. And I do think it's very important to just keep underscoring that what AI models should be focused on is the truth, is on accuracy. And we don't want ideological agendas to sacrifice that. And, um, and I think-

David Sacks 22:10 Right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:10 ... I think that even though this is a less salient issue now than six months ago, precisely because of the vibe shift, I still think it's important to underscore this point, that we don't want-

David Sacks 22:20 Would you go so far as to make it-

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:21 We don't want AI taking an Orwellian direction.

David Sacks 22:24 Yeah, would you go so far as to limit free speech and, uh, and make it non-ideologically biased? Like, would you make that law if you could? Because-

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:33 No, I wouldn't.

David Sacks 22:33 ... again, the, the, the decision about the federal government procuring versus what these private companies can choose to reflect as their, quote, "values" in their systems-

Jason Calacanis 22:41 No, he just, you already answered that.

David Sacks 22:42 ... you know-

Jason Calacanis 22:43 He would not.

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:44 Yeah. No, look.

Jason Calacanis 22:45 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:45 I... We understand the difference between public procurement and private speech.

David Sacks 22:48 Right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:48 And again, in, in a way that the Biden administration did not because they were saying that all AI models-

David Sacks 22:53 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:53 ... had to be suffused with-

Jason Calacanis 22:54 Adhere to a specific ideology.

Chamath Palihapitiya 22:56 To, to the CEI stuff, so um-

Jason Calacanis 22:57 Yes, it was an ideology they wanted embedded in it. You're saying-

Chamath Palihapitiya 23:00 You're right.

Jason Calacanis 23:00 ... don't put an ideology. But just to be clear here, I want to make one point. This is the defaults. Anybody who wants to could, when they start their prompt or they set up their preferred language model, could say, "I'm an atheist. Here's what I believe. Please speak to me with this in mind." Or, "I'm a Catholic. Uh, you know, I'm a Protestant."

David Sacks 23:18 That's right.

Jason Calacanis 23:18 Whatever you want.

David Sacks 23:19 That's right.

Jason Calacanis 23:19 "Here's my belief system. Please never reference, you know, these three-"

David Sacks 23:24 That's right.

Jason Calacanis 23:24 "... subject matters in this way." So this is the default. I think it's a great thing you've explained it perfectly, I think.

David Sacks 23:29 I do think, I, I think that's a great example, J-Cal. I do think we'll end up seeing religious AI. I think we'll see AI that's tuned to people's religious beliefs-

Jason Calacanis 23:35 I would back that as a-

David Sacks 23:35 ... and other ideological.

Jason Calacanis 23:36 ... I have a-

David Sacks 23:36 But I think, yeah.

Jason Calacanis 23:37 ... I, I have one of the startups we did was doing a learning app, and they were struggling, and they just made a prayer app. And their prayer app went parabolic, and now they're just like printing money. So there is definitely a huge market here.

Chamath Palihapitiya 23:51 J-Cal, what, what were your highlights?

Jason Calacanis 23:53 It was great to be, you know, included in everything, so I appreciate that. (laughter) We had, uh, se- No, I'm being dead serious because I think-

Chamath Palihapitiya 23:59 Your invitation finally didn't get lost in the mail.

Jason Calacanis 24:02 No, but here's the thing. It-

Chamath Palihapitiya 24:03 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 24:03 I think this could have been a non-All In thing. It could have just been-

Chamath Palihapitiya 24:07 Right.

Jason Calacanis 24:07 ... you know, you could have done it and just invited who you wanted to. So I like that it was under the All In, um, umbrella, and that we didn't censor anything and we went right at hard topics. I'm a moderate. I know people want to make me into, like, a stupid lib, but I am an independent moderate. And there were moments in time when we had great debate too.This wasn't just a love letter to the administration. One of the great moments was J.D. Vance. It was just great that he wanted to come, chop it up, and just hang with the besties. And he came out and he went right at me. He was like, "Hey, you treated me like a (beep) at the thing."

David Sacks 24:37 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 24:37 We had a big debate and, you know, he went right at me. And then I was like, "Okay, it's on. You wanna talk about stuff?" And he said, "Yeah, let's get into it." And that's what I love about J.D. J.D. to me seems like the politician of the future. I know this is, like, the Trump's administration-

David Sacks 24:52 So you- so you like him.

Jason Calacanis 24:53 But-

David Sacks 24:53 So you like him.

Jason Calacanis 24:53 Uh, no, no. I- I'm in like with Trump, I'm in love with J.D. Because he's young, he's opinionated, and he likes to mix it up. He's on Twitter all day long. He engages people on Twitter. He engages people in other groups. I'll leave it at that. And, uh, we had a really, I think, honest discussion about immigration. And we got back to the high-skilled immigration question. That's the third rail for MAGA and- and for the country right now, immigration, recruiting.

David Sacks 25:19 You mean you brought it up right off the bat. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 25:22 No, no. He said he wanted to talk about it.

David Sacks 25:23 So you're on your hobby horse. No, you brought it up.

Jason Calacanis 25:24 No, no, no, no, no.

David Sacks 25:25 He's on his hobby horse, very predictable. He took advantage of your seat. Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 25:26 He said, "I want to continue the debate." And I said, "Okay, let's continue the debate." So here we go. He was super spicy and he made a great super spicy point that I want to point out here on Amplify. If companies are gonna be laying people off... And there was an incredible, uh, chart that came out, it was in the Financial Times, and they showed male college graduates versus non-college graduate males. And there was usually a huge gap in unemployment between those two. In other words, if you had the college degree, you- you had a much better chance than the non-college degree male. And now, those two things have flipped or they're, like, neck and neck. If you have a college degree, you have no advantage as a man coming out in this, you know, 20 to 27 year old range. This is men. Women are actually doing better. More women in college than men, yada yada. But he's very attuned to this and he says he's got big concerns right now. So this is, again, why I love J.D., because J.D. is very tuned into the fact that people are asking for more H-1B visas, and that typically is to save money and supposed to be a very skilled people. But why is Microsoft laying off 9,000 people then asking for more, you know, H-1B visas? This is a really honest, truth-seeking question and I- I... It's hard for this administration to talk about this issue because I know you got Steve Miller, Bannon, whatever people, all the way on one side who want to deport 20, 30 million people, Tucker, and, you know, and then you have other people who are more moderate. And I thought that was, like, a really great moment in time for America and for us as a podcast to challenge and have a really important discussion. And he made some great points there. Number two, we had a great debate, I think, about energy. Uh-

David Sacks 27:02 No.

Jason Calacanis 27:02 B-

David Sacks 27:02 Disagree. Go ahead.

Jason Calacanis 27:03 You disagree? Okay, I thought that-

David Sacks 27:05 I disagree with the... Uh, 'cause I think you challenged him with... I- I think you challenged him with things that were not facts and not true, and I'm happy to debate that with you offline.

Jason Calacanis 27:12 Great, let's do it.

David Sacks 27:12 I think he was caught off guard, but I think it was pretty, like-

Jason Calacanis 27:15 Well, no, I-

David Sacks 27:15 ... rough and inappropriate.

Jason Calacanis 27:16 100 pe- if you think it was inappropriate, that's fine. I walked the audience-

David Sacks 27:19 Jake Howell's favorite moments were all the ones where he got combative-

Jason Calacanis 27:21 No, no, no. It was the ones where we had debate.

David Sacks 27:23 ... with the guests.

Jason Calacanis 27:23 No, no, no.

David Sacks 27:23 That's what you're describing. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 27:24 No, no. Where there were debates, they were honest, good debates.

David Sacks 27:26 When you got into it with the vice president, you got into it with the secretary of energy.

Jason Calacanis 27:30 No, we had a debate.

David Sacks 27:30 Those were your favorite moments when you got to... (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 27:33 Well, okay, great. So, okay, fine. I like when there's a little conflict, a little debate about an important issue.

David Sacks 27:38 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 27:38 And when I walked the audience, which was, you know, 90% Republican, GOP, MAGA, et cetera, people said that was a great moment. I really liked that debate. 'Cause he kept saying, like, non-reliable energy or whatever. And I said, "Are you talking about solar?" And I think there was a little misinformation there.

David Sacks 27:54 It is non-reliable. No, it's not misinformation. You- you-

Jason Calacanis 27:56 When you put it with a battery... Right now Texas is 30% some days wind and energy. You know, like, I could tell you, I live in the great state of Texas.

David Sacks 28:03 About, Te- Texas is-

Jason Calacanis 28:04 Texas is not doing that.

David Sacks 28:05 ... Texas is roughly 5% solar, just so you know.

Jason Calacanis 28:06 What's that?

David Sacks 28:07 Yeah. Texas is roughly 5% solar.

Jason Calacanis 28:10 Right. And wind puts it up to 25 to 30% on the top days is coming from that. My point about that is... And it's cheaper to put in a solar, uh, and battery farm-

David Sacks 28:18 It's not.

Jason Calacanis 28:18 ... than a new coal plant. It is 100%. We can pull up the stats.

David Sacks 28:22 It is twice the cost to do solar than it is to do nat gas. It takes 4,000 acres.

Jason Calacanis 28:26 No, no, I said coal.

David Sacks 28:26 Whereas nat gas-

Jason Calacanis 28:26 I said coal.

David Sacks 28:27 ... nat gas takes 20 acres.

Jason Calacanis 28:28 I said coal. I said coal. No one said coal.

David Sacks 28:30 Yeah, but these, the- the big advocacy with these guys is to use nat gas, to use methane.

Jason Calacanis 28:34 Oh, no. He was saying clean coal, clean coal, clean coal.

David Sacks 28:36 And he's made-

Jason Calacanis 28:37 He said it 50 times.

David Sacks 28:38 These methane plants are half the cost of solar. They can get stood up in less than two years-

Jason Calacanis 28:42 Absolutely.

David Sacks 28:43 ... to generate a gigawatt. And instead of being 4,000 acres of solar, you can get it done for, you know, call it 20 acres.

Jason Calacanis 28:49 Now, talk a little bit about pollution.

David Sacks 28:51 And that's a big part of why they're doing this. Well, a big part of methane is that it's actually cleaner than coal.

Jason Calacanis 28:57 Okay, compared to solar and nuclear.

David Sacks 28:57 Which is why they're using it. It's cleaner than oil. Cleaner than oil. And-

Jason Calacanis 29:01 Okay. (laughs) The two dirtiest ways of getting energy.

David Sacks 29:03 There's a, there's a-

Jason Calacanis 29:03 Now science guy, (laughs) now do solar batteries and nuclear.

David Sacks 29:07 I know. I'm trying to give you the facts about why, about why it is cheaper and faster, which is what he was making an advocacy for, right? It's not about... Like solar, yes, you're right, it has a lower carbon footprint when you're running it. But at the end of the day, what these guys are focused on, and a big challenge for America, is how do we scale energy production in the States?

Jason Calacanis 29:23 Yes.

David Sacks 29:23 And scaling energy production, I personally think we need to fix the regulatory roadblocks in nuclear, and Chris Wright's been very vocal on this.

Jason Calacanis 29:29 Yeah, we all agree on that.

David Sacks 29:31 But the fact is, this nat gas supply that we have in the United States and the fact that we can deploy nat gas energy production very quickly is what makes it such a reliable source right now if the US wants to have a chance at scaling from one terawatt to two faster than we're currently projected today.

Jason Calacanis 29:47 Totally in agreement on that, but I think we do need to-

David Sacks 29:47 And that's the reason, you know. It's not, it's not about, like-

Jason Calacanis 29:49 I- I think-

David Sacks 29:49 ... solars being bad, solars bad. Like, that's not the- the argument. It's just, like, dude, we- we gotta get moving fast and we gotta have reliable energy-

Jason Calacanis 29:56 I just want to point out-

David Sacks 29:56 ... if we're gonna meet the demand. Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 29:58 ... in our debates. I just want to point, in our, in our debates when there's bad faith moments. I think it's a bad faith moment for when I say coal versus solar, and then you say, "No, you're wrong. It's solar versus nat gas." And that's what he was doing. This is what politicians do. Here on All In, we like to do, you know, uh, fact-based, truth first stuff, not biased stuff. And so, solar, you're comparing su- (laughs) you know, solar and how fast it is versus how fast it is to go to nat gas. Of course it's faster to go to nat gas if we have those available. Let's put that aside. It's an important debate. The fact that you and I are debating it is important.And I also thought Lisa from AMD was fantastic. I haven't heard from her.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:35 By the way, I just want to point out that when I got back to the conference, so I, I left for a time to go back to the White House-

Jason Calacanis 30:42 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:42 ... and then I came back. The first thing everyone said to me-

Jason Calacanis 30:45 Oh, no.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:45 ... when I got back-

David Sacks 30:46 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 30:46 Oh, no.

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:46 ... was, "Did you see J-CAL being a jerk to Chris Wright?" They were, everyone was, like, all a tizzy about the-

Jason Calacanis 30:53 A jerk?

Chamath Palihapitiya 30:53 Yeah, a jerk.

Jason Calacanis 30:54 He's a civil servant. He has to answer hard questions.

David Sacks 30:57 You didn't talk to him in a, in a, in a, in the way that you would to, like-

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:00 Basically, everyone thought you were a jerk to Chris Wright.

Jason Calacanis 31:03 ... respect a conversation.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:03 And you were kinda a jerk to JD. And what are your favorite moments?

Jason Calacanis 31:06 JD called me an ass-

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:07 What are your favorite-

Jason Calacanis 31:08 And he came down (laughs) .

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:08 ... moments from the conference you're reminiscing about?

Jason Calacanis 31:10 And JD came down and said, "You were an asshole to me." (laughs) Anyway, the point is, one thing-

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:17 (laughs) Sacks.

Jason Calacanis 31:17 ... you're gonna get here at the All-In Podcast, it's an-

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:19 Am I right? This is what everyone was saying.

Jason Calacanis 31:22 100%. No, two out of three.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:23 Everyone was saying this.

Jason Calacanis 31:23 Two out of three were the mix-up.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:23 Everyone was saying this. You almost derailed the whole thing.

Jason Calacanis 31:26 Nobody f-ing derailed it.

David Sacks 31:27 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:27 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 31:27 You're a civil servant, Mr. Sacks. You're a civil servant. You're all civil servants. You work for us-

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:32 Yeah, I've been putting up with you for five years of this podcast.

Jason Calacanis 31:34 ... and you will take the hard questions.

David Sacks 31:35 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:35 It was perfect training for government service, is being on the podcast, being interrupted by you for five years.

David Sacks 31:41 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 31:41 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:42 That's why I'm so ready.

Jason Calacanis 31:43 You learned well. You learn about... You work for us.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:46 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 31:46 All of you. And you're all gonna take hard questions, and you're all gonna take hard questions on September 7th, 8th, and 9th when we have the All-In Summit in Los Angeles.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:56 Uh, by the way, by the way, one thing I'll say is-

Jason Calacanis 31:58 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 31:58 ... Chris Wright's chief of staff came up to me afterwards, and I said, "Oh, I'm sorry. I heard J-CAL was a jerk to, to Secretary Wright." And he said, "Oh, no, Chris loved it. He loves mixing it up."

Jason Calacanis 32:08 Okay, of course.

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:08 And he's coming to, he's coming to All-In Summit in, on September 8th, so.

Jason Calacanis 32:12 Can't wait to debate him more.

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:13 So, yes.

Jason Calacanis 32:14 Can't wait to mix it up more.

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:15 So he, he likes mixing it up, so kudos to him.

Jason Calacanis 32:17 This is the... Okay. One thing I want to-

David Sacks 32:18 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:18 And, and so did, so did JD Vance, the vice president to you. Stop calling him JD, by the way.

David Sacks 32:25 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 32:25 Well, I mean, listen, I just wanna say-

David Sacks 32:27 (laughs) .

Jason Calacanis 32:27 ... Vice President JD Vance and I have been directly communicating. We have a, we-

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:33 Really?

Jason Calacanis 32:33 Yes.

David Sacks 32:33 No you haven't.

Jason Calacanis 32:34 David Sacks, your worst nightmare.

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:36 (laughs)

David Sacks 32:36 Oh my God.

Jason Calacanis 32:37 Your worst nightmare.

David Sacks 32:38 The, the nation is ruined. What the fuck?

Chamath Palihapitiya 32:40 We let J-CAL into Washington and now look what's happening.

David Sacks 32:43 Yeah. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 32:43 Let's... And listen, I wanna level set with everybody. We... I am gonna ask whatever fucking question I want to whatever guest we have, and nobody's stopping me. The only way you're gonna stop me is by writing me a huge fucking check to buy me out of this podcast and replacing me with some mid. Until that time happens...

David Sacks 33:00 Or if the Secret Service keeps you off stage, which might be an option.

Jason Calacanis 33:03 Or if Secret Service keeps me safe. But the truth is, this is one of the great things about this administration, Sacks, is that they love to mix it up. They like great debate. You know who didn't like great debate and ran from it? Kamalama Ding Dong. She wouldn't even come on this fucking podcast.

David Sacks 33:18 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 33:18 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 33:18 You know who doesn't like debate?

David Sacks 33:19 Kamalama Ding Dong.

Jason Calacanis 33:20 Weekend at Bernie's Biden, who didn't even know what a podcast fucking is.

Chamath Palihapitiya 33:24 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 33:25 Tim Waltz, who doesn't own-

David Sacks 33:27 J-CAL, you, you definitely, you definitely have your moments, bro. You definitely have your moments.

Jason Calacanis 33:30 But Tim Waltz doesn't own an equity. He clearly doesn't own one share of any company, doesn't own his fucking home.

David Sacks 33:36 You're right. You're right.

Jason Calacanis 33:36 And Tim Waltz is on there giving a hard time about the, uh, Trump savings accounts. We... I mean, I don't even know if that's on the fucking docket.

Chamath Palihapitiya 33:43 He owns a camo hat, though, which you loved. You thought that was going in the election.

Jason Calacanis 33:46 I, well, I thought he might be able to speak to, like, the middle of America. And then I find out, like, when they do the, the deep oppo research that the guy doesn't own one stock. The guy doesn't own his home. He's financially illiterate, and we're making him the vice president?

David Sacks 34:02 He's been employed by the government. He's been employed by the government his whole life.

Jason Calacanis 34:05 I mean, do you... Have you... Unbelievable.

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:06 There it is.

Jason Calacanis 34:07 There it is. Can you, can you get me one of those?

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:09 That's what J-CAL thought would win them the election.

Jason Calacanis 34:10 Get me one of those.

David Sacks 34:10 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:11 You're never gonna live that down. I remember when you tweeted. You thought that was it. You thought that was the master stroke.

Jason Calacanis 34:16 I thought it might, it might-

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:17 The master stroke that was gonna win them the election.

David Sacks 34:19 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 34:19 Hey, listen, Nostrocanz does not bat 1,000.

David Sacks 34:22 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 34:22 No, stric- No, even Nostrocanz cannot bat 1,000.

David Sacks 34:26 (laughs) .

Jason Calacanis 34:26 But it did come out, by the way, that Nancy Pelosi wanted to do the speed run primary. I don't know if you saw that. Just not to rehash too much

Jason Calacanis 34:32 stuff. Sacks, I wanna, um, say there was one point of difference, if you wanna get into it-

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:36 Okay.

Jason Calacanis 34:36 ... around the, the, the content part of, part of it, where... And this is something that the press was having a, a field day with and they really keyed on, which was, hey, respecting IP, respecting copyright. What's the feedback been so far on that, which was a pretty spicy part of President Trump's speech?

Chamath Palihapitiya 34:57 Well, I think what the president said was just very pragmatic. He said we have to have a common sense approach towards intellectual property. And he said if you have to make a deal with every single article on the internet, every single website, every single book, every piece of IP, in order to train an AI model, it wasn't feasible. He said, "Look, I appreciate the work that went into people creating these works, but you're not gonna be able to negotiate a deal for every single one of them." And if we require our AI models to do that, and China doesn't, and they won't, they're just training on everything, whether it's, you know, pirated or not, then we're gonna lose the AI race. So I think he took the side of a fair use definition. I don't know if he used the term fair use, but effectively-

Jason Calacanis 35:41 No, he didn't. Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 35:41 ... he was taking the side of a reasonable fair use.

Jason Calacanis 35:46 What did you think of that part, Dave Freiberg? You have any thoughts, or Chamath, on that part?

David Sacks 35:49 I think he's absolutely right. I've said this before. If something's in the internet, if something's in the open domain, and I strongly disagree with the idea that AI getting trained is the same as AI replicating copyright material. If AI outputs text or outputs audio or outputs video that contains copyright material, it is 100% in violation of copyright.

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:13 And he said that, by the way.

David Sacks 36:14 Yes. And if the AI is learning, it is understanding patterns, it is understanding reasoning, it is understanding concepts by reading copyright material, just like humans do. A writer, an author reads a bunch of fiction, learns good techniques, learns good concepts, learns good theory from reading all those books, and then goes and writes his or her own book, they are not violating copyright material in the same way that AI-

Jason Calacanis 36:38 What if it's all behind a paywall?... Friedberg. What if it's all- Oh, if- ... the New York Times content- No, if it's, if it's behind a- ... and it's not on the open internet? 100%, you're, you're 100% correct, that should be paid for or licensed. Okay. I'm talking about the open internet, I'm talking about open- Got it. ... material.

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:50 Common Crawl.

Jason Calacanis 36:50 I'm talking about stuff that's in the open domain. Which exactly-

Chamath Palihapitiya 36:53 Common Crawl. There's a thing called Common Crawl.

Jason Calacanis 36:55 Now, if there was, if somebody stole a hundred books, let's say, and put them on their website, and it was a pirated Russian website with a thousand books on it, and you accidentally crawled it, you would be obligated to take that out then. Correct.

Chamath Palihapitiya 37:08 I think we can all agree?

Jason Calacanis 37:09 Correct. Correct. Okay. 'Cause that's what a lot of the lawsuits are about. So I think we're m- reaching something. I just wanna say, I, you know, this is such an important point, especially to me as a content creator and somebody who spent his career in this. I've been thinking about the endgame and, um, I was... I'm here in Park City, I was just giving this, a keynote and I wanted to show you something I made. Sacks. 'Cause I think we have to get to the, the endgame here. So, in my talk, I talked a little bit about how can we get through this fight and then maybe getting to a solution. So, I had my team mock up the New York Times website here and ChatGPT doing a deal with them. So, here you see, you're on the New York Times website and you ask it a question powered by G2PT. You ask it, "Hey," you might ask this question, in fact. You log in with your ChatGPT credentials, your... and it could be Grok, it could be Gemini, "Give me the earliest mentions of Putin." You know, if you were a fan of Putin or something. And it would then go through that and give you your, your Put- Putin references. And then I made another one. And then obviously, this would be an exclusive to ChatGPT, it would be one of those things where, you know, they get an exclusive. And then here on the, uh, Disney+ channel, imagine you could make yourself into a, a Jedi knight, and you could then upload your photo. You know, kids might really get into this. You upload your photo, you can make... You talked about this, Friedberg, a couple of times, of the future of narrative storytelling. You up your photo, and then it makes you into a Jedi knight. There's, there's Darth Cal Kestis. So-

Chamath Palihapitiya 38:32 That looks to me-

Jason Calacanis 38:32 I mean, I'm curious-

Chamath Palihapitiya 38:32 ... like you're infringing on their trademark.

Jason Calacanis 38:35 What's that?

Chamath Palihapitiya 38:36 Are you infringing on their, their copyrights?

Jason Calacanis 38:38 This is fair use. This is fair use.

Chamath Palihapitiya 38:40 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 38:40 This is a perfect example of fair use for editorial.

David Friedberg 38:42 You're also infringing on some Ozempic. That's a-

Chamath Palihapitiya 38:44 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 38:44 Absolutely.

David Friedberg 38:45 ... that's pretty big.

Jason Calacanis 38:46 Trust me, I am definitely infringing on some Ozempic here. Guys, I'm, I'm past Ozempic. I'm onto peptides now, man. I'm on the Wolverine protocol, so look out.

David Friedberg 38:53 Are you?

Chamath Palihapitiya 38:55 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 38:55 Yeah, I started doing the... I mean, I, I don't take a pod-

David Friedberg 38:57 You and Vinny, what could go wrong?

Chamath Palihapitiya 38:59 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 38:59 Don't take a podcaster's advice. Please, don't take a podcaster's advice-

David Friedberg 39:05 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 39:05 ... upon your healthcare, rule number one. Take Chamath's advice, because he's got-

David Friedberg 39:09 Oh.

Jason Calacanis 39:09 ... 6% body fat, which I think attributes to much of your pomp and circumstance around your privates. I think it has to do with the lack of fat, but I'm gonna leave it at that.

David Friedberg 39:19 First of all, it's 11 and a half. But, you know, it, it... that's, that's like... right, that's like right before I go on summer vacation, then it-

Jason Calacanis 39:25 Got it.

David Friedberg 39:26 ... then it ends up at 12 or 13.

Jason Calacanis 39:27 Mm, did you go get that, did you go get that gelato? What was that place we went that we love?

David Friedberg 39:31 Louloumi.

Jason Calacanis 39:32 Louloumi.

David Friedberg 39:32 I've gone there every day, every day so far.

Jason Calacanis 39:34 Did you do two or one? Be honest. Two or one?

David Friedberg 39:37 Bro, I've had, I've had, I've been doing the-

Jason Calacanis 39:38 No, no, per session, do you do two or one? Be honest.

David Friedberg 39:40 Oh, per sesh, two. I start with the medium and then I-

Jason Calacanis 39:43 Oh, you gotta have two, that's so good.

David Friedberg 39:43 ... and I finish with a small.

Jason Calacanis 39:44 Yeah, exactly. You got... (laughs) this, this stuff is so good.

David Friedberg 39:47 I've never tasted any gelato like this, it's incredible.

Jason Calacanis 39:49 Okay, let's get... I mean, it's just unbelievable. We have to license it for the United States-

David Friedberg 39:52 It's incredible.

Jason Calacanis 39:52 ... and put it under the all-in brand. We have to license it from them.

David Friedberg 39:54 It's really incredible.

Jason Calacanis 39:54 But Chamath, uh, just generally speaking, or anybody who wants to have at it, Friedberg, Sacks, what do we think about the endgame here? Because there's some major lawsuits here, they're gonna get settled in the next year or two. What, what do we think about, sort of, the future I've shown here today? I think what Sacks just highlighted is exactly right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:12 Look, we gotta have a common sense approach here or we're gonna lose the AI race. I mean, one of the key-

Jason Calacanis 40:16 But on out... what about out-

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:17 Hold on.

Jason Calacanis 40:18 Okay.

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:18 One of the key determinants of AI quality is the amount of data that you have.

Jason Calacanis 40:23 Mm-hmm.

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:23 It's very simple, right? It's, there's a few building blocks. There's energy, there's chips, and there's data, and there's algorithms. And if you lose on any one of those dimensions, then you're in trouble.

Jason Calacanis 40:33 Right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:33 So, look, you just can't have a situation where China can train on the entire internet, and RAI models are hamstrung by needing to contract-

Jason Calacanis 40:43 Totally agree with that.

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:43 ... negotiate contracts with every single website.

Jason Calacanis 40:45 But right now- That's like Europe. ... Elon owns X, right? He owns Twitter. For m- now X. Does Sam Altman have the right to use X in his corpus? It's publicly available?

David Friedberg 40:56 It's X?

Jason Calacanis 40:56 No, it's not. No, it is not publicly available.

David Friedberg 40:58 I- it's not a public endpoint.

Jason Calacanis 40:59 It's not a public endpoint.

Chamath Palihapitiya 40:59 I just, honestly, I don't, I don't-

Jason Calacanis 41:01 It is behind a paywall.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:01 There's... I don't know the answer to that. There's some edge cases here. We're gonna have to come up with a fair use-

David Friedberg 41:04 No, it's not, it's not about whether it's behind a, a paywall or not, it's whether these APIs exist and whether you're a- you're actually contractually allowed to use them or not.

Jason Calacanis 41:12 The terms of service.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:13 Correct.

Jason Calacanis 41:13 The terms of service, it's published on every website, what the terms of service are-

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:16 Got it.

Jason Calacanis 41:16 ... with respect to the content.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:17 I think it would be okay to let people opt out, you know. So, we already have this with Common Crawl. You can put, in the footer of the website, you put in robots.txt and you opt out of Common Crawl.

Jason Calacanis 41:29 Yes.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:29 Common Crawl is, like, this nonprofit organization that-

Jason Calacanis 41:32 Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:32 ... basically archives the entire web every few months.

Jason Calacanis 41:35 Funded by Gil Elbaz, former Googler. Formerly of Google, yeah. Formerly of Google, great fan of the pod, shows up to our summits, great guy.

Chamath Palihapitiya 41:43 Hmm.

Jason Calacanis 41:43 And all of OpenAI was built off of Common Crawl originally, the first training. Yeah. And, and he, but they're very clear, by the way. They say, "You have to clear copyrights. You don't get to just use open Chrome."

David Friedberg 41:52 Can I go out on a limb?

Jason Calacanis 41:53 Please.

David Friedberg 41:53 I don't know if you guys saw this Amazon deal with the New York Times for $25 million. Did you see that today?

Jason Calacanis 42:00 No. I didn't see it today. Explain it, please.

David Friedberg 42:03 I think that the New York Times licensed Amazon all of their content, including The Athletic and a bunch of other things, for training. $20 million, sorry, $20 million a year.

Jason Calacanis 42:13 Okay, here we go.

David Friedberg 42:13 I read that and I thought, "This is the peak of these deals. These deals will only go down in terms of dollar value from here." And it, it actually brought me to this point where I was thinking to myself, "Is it even realistic to believe that patents and copyrights actually exist in five years?" And I went through this exercise of like, if a computer studies the-... periodic table and also understands the laws of physics, the laws of biology, the laws of chemistry, and then independently derives some material that is otherwise patented, what will happen? And then separately, if two competing AIs invent a new material from scratch, how will the international courts deal with this? And if you take all of these examples to the limit, at the limit, the idea that there are copyrights, enforceable copyrights, I think is a very fragile assumption. So I'm actually thinking more that we have to spend some time understanding the landscape of a world that doesn't have copyrights and patent protections, and instead, what is the surface area in which you compete? What is trade secret? What does that mean in a world of AI? And I think it's quite an interesting thing to think about.

Jason Calacanis 43:43 Patents are a totally different beast. I think that's a fascinating string to pull on. I will tell you, I will take the other side of the bet. If we want to make a poly market on this, I will guarantee that this will be the beginning of the deals, and the deals will go up from here. I'll tell you why. The reason the New York Times made that deal is to make it apparent that what OpenAI has done has damaged their business, because now they have a customer, and their customer is Jeff Bezos at Amazon and, and Jassy, and now they can show damages. Because ... And they ... Now, those damages could give them an injunction against OpenAI, and OpenAI's gotta take it out of their crawl, of their, uh, you know, construct, and that's gonna be really expensive for them. It's not, not doable, but it's gonna be expensive. And let's think on a societal basis of what we want as a society. Do we want a society in which journalists, writers, artists, musicians, filmmakers, actors cannot make a living? Podcasters? Or do we want a world in which they can? And I think technologists-

David Friedberg 44:40 But you're assuming-

Jason Calacanis 44:40 Hold on. Let me finish.

David Friedberg 44:41 But you're assuming that copyrights-

Jason Calacanis 44:42 As a technologist, as a technologist, we typically think, "If we can crawl it, it's ours." What I can tell you as an artist is, if I make it, it's mine, and you need my permission because it's my art. And I think it ... The industry will do better if they respect them because now the New York Times can hire more fact-checkers. Or you-

David Friedberg 44:59 But can I just ask you a question?

Jason Calacanis 45:00 Yeah, go ahead. Sure.

David Friedberg 45:01 But w- why do you have to connect the two as immutable things? Meaning, why can't somebody make something still ... You know, let's just say it's a song, but that song can now be made by multiple AI models. But if they make the song, there's a reasonable claim that even if they don't have the copyright, more people will want them to perform the song than some random AI. So can't you make a living without having the copyright?

Jason Calacanis 45:31 Which is the choice of the artist. Some artists are f- were very well known for not wanting their art to exist in some mediums. As a perfect example, The Rolling Stones, for a long time, thought they would be sellouts if they had their music used in commercials. And when they did Start Me Up with Windows, that was a really big concession from them. And that's up to the artist to make that decision. You make a, a valid claim. Hey, yeah, you go on tour, you make more money. But that's the artist's decision, not the technologist's or the people stealing their content. And by the way, $20 million a year is 100 $200,000 highly paid journalists, fact-checkers at the New York Times. They're gonna d- get 10 of those deals, and it's going to create a golden era age of journalism and content, and we should be happy about that.

David Friedberg 46:11 I told you-

Jason Calacanis 46:11 Yeah.

David Friedberg 46:11 I told you this example, Jason, but at, at Beast, we did a, a licensing deal of our content to allow OpenAI to learn-

Jason Calacanis 46:19 Yeah.

David Friedberg 46:20 ... to run training runs on our videos. And at the board, the thing that we kept talking about was I was, I was really concerned, like, let's just do a, a couple-year deal max.

Jason Calacanis 46:30 Sure.

David Friedberg 46:30 And the reason is we have no idea what this looks-

Jason Calacanis 46:33 The value.

David Friedberg 46:33 ... like in-

Jason Calacanis 46:34 Yeah.

David Friedberg 46:34 ... five or 10 years, and there's just as much chance, to your point, that we get it wrong as right. Now, that was about six months ago. And so the intuition that I had back then was maybe we should keep the deal term as short as possible.

Jason Calacanis 46:47 Mm-hmm.

David Friedberg 46:47 But now when, when I see how important AI is in the global landscape and what China is doing, I think on the margins that this idea that these copyrights will mean something-

Jason Calacanis 46:57 Hmm.

David Friedberg 46:58 ... in my mind, I am underwriting the value of these things going to zero, and I'm asking myself instead, for my businesses, how are we actually building a real defensible moat and not a piece of paper that we can use to sue somebody?

Jason Calacanis 47:14 Okay. Friedberg, you want the last word here? We gotta move on to some other topics.

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:17 I, I just wanna be clear-

David Sacks 47:19 Or it's actually your last word. Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:19 I just wanna be clear that nobody is losing their copyright.

Jason Calacanis 47:24 Correct.

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:24 Copyright is the right not to have your work copied. And if an AI model produces outputs that copy or plagiarize your work, then that's a violation of the law.

Jason Calacanis 47:36 That's right.

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:36 And I think the president specifically said that. "We're not allowing copying or plagiarizing." The question is whether AI models are allowed to do math on the internet. You know, to-

David Sacks 47:46 On pattern recognition.

Chamath Palihapitiya 47:47 Pattern recognition, so-

David Sacks 47:47 Basically, that's what it is. And it's ... And J-Cal, I think you're conflating the two, and I, I, I, I don't wanna be interrupted.

David Friedberg 47:52 No, no, no. I understand the-

David Sacks 47:53 I just, I just wanna say this-

David Friedberg 47:54 I understand the distinction.

David Sacks 47:55 All that's ... And, and I think that this idea that, like, I can't, for example, go to the library, rent a book, read it, and then learn some of the good techniques on how to write a good book should be restricted to humans in this AI context. Like, this is exactly what they're doing. They're identifying patterns, and then they're building predictive algorithms that allow them to output stuff that starts to fit within different kind of, you know, variable settings.

David Friedberg 48:17 Do you guys think it's possible that if you allocated enough compute at the problem, you could write Michael Crichton's Jurassic Park de novo without ever having read it?

David Sacks 48:31 Yeah.

David Friedberg 48:31 Me too. Me too.

Jason Calacanis 48:33 I, I think-

Chamath Palihapitiya 48:33 I don't know what that would mean. Like ...

David Friedberg 48:35 Well, this is my point. I don't ... I think, I think humanity needs to-

Chamath Palihapitiya 48:37 I know who Michael Crichton is and I know what Jurassic Park is.

David Friedberg 48:39 They need to deal with this issue.

Chamath Palihapitiya 48:41 I don't know what it means. I don't know what it means to say, "Can AI write that?" Like ...

David Sacks 48:43 But you guys remember the Ed Sheeran lawsuit? Do you remember that lawsuit?

Jason Calacanis 48:46 Oh, yeah, I, I did, but let me just make one point here on this-

David Sacks 48:48 Yeah, go ahead.

Jason Calacanis 48:48 ... 'cause you're, you're saying I don't understand it. I spent my career in it. I understand it much better than you do.... and I understand it from lawsuits-

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 48:54 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 48:54 ... and being in the weeds on it.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 48:56 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 48:56 Like, I understand it from first principles, which you do not. And I will say, this is ... what we're talking about here is the definition, it's the definition of a derivative work. And the output matters. So, if you were to take my knowledge and then create a derivative work from it, and you used a percentage of my work, and that's where this will get into the nuance, is what percentage of the original work is used in the derivative work. And under what context, a commercial context or a non-commercial? This is clearly a commercial one. If it's a ... if OpenAI was a nonprofit right now, we'd be having a distinctly different discussion because it would, there would be, you wouldn't be competing with me as the copyright holder to use this new medium and create the derivative works.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 49:36 Well ...

David Friedberg 49:36 You know-

Jason Calacanis 49:36 And it has to change substantially. So, if it's a, if it's a CliffsNotes ...

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 49:40 When China has the only models that are able to meet your stringent definitions of copyright ...

Jason Calacanis 49:45 Well, no, here, here's the thing. I think the China fear, the China fear shit is bullshit. I'll be totally honest here. Just because China steals IP does not mean you get to steal from Americans. In America we have rules. And when you go to China, and by the way-

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 49:58 It's all theft to begin with.

Jason Calacanis 49:58 ... we've spent the last 30 years, the major issue with China is not Taiwan, it has been respecting copyright.

David Friedberg 50:02 Let me reframe it, let me reframe this issue, Jason.

Jason Calacanis 50:04 The technology industry itself (laughs) ... let me finish. The technology industry itself has leaned on our government for 30, 40 years, including Microsoft, including Google, to make sure our trade secrets are not stolen, our IP is not stolen, our movies are not stolen. That is the key issue with China. So, just because China's a thief-

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 50:19 You don't know what-

Jason Calacanis 50:19 ... does not mean American companies get to be used.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 50:21 Have you seen, have you seen the latest batch of Chinese open source models or open weight models?

Jason Calacanis 50:27 Again, y- ... they, they steal everything. Does that mean you should be able to steal Windows? Should you be able to steal x.com?

David Friedberg 50:30 Jason, let me ask you a question. Jason, let me ask you a question.

Jason Calacanis 50:32 Should you be able to steal Amazon?

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 50:33 We don't think it's stealing.

David Friedberg 50:35 Elon has said this pretty clearly, but Grok-5, and for sure Grok-6, will not use Common Crawl, it will not use the internet. Okay? It'll just be an enormous amount of synthetic data. And back to what Friedberg and I just agreed upon, if you synthetically go and try to generate all this content to learn across, you're invariably going to produce something that's already been created. And so, d-

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 50:57 I mean, that's like some sci-fi level world-

David Friedberg 51:00 I understand, but that's what's happening now.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 51:03 It would have to-

David Friedberg 51:03 It's, it's happening now.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 51:04 If somebody happens to create-

David Friedberg 51:05 So, what, what do you think happens to Grok-5 or Grok-6? Is that violating copyright?

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 51:09 No.

David Friedberg 51:09 It didn't even know that it existed.

Jason Calacanis 51:11 On the output, yeah, that's fine. If it, on the output, created a similar work, they would need to then take it down. And so, that, that would be a, a really interesting new ... that's a new space we're gonna have to contend with. So, what you've described-

David Friedberg 51:25 Can I, can I give you an example?

Jason Calacanis 51:26 ... if it does happen, is a new concept that we would have to address in a new way.

David Friedberg 51:31 I agree with you.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 51:31 I'll give you, I'll give you a science corner example.

Jason Calacanis 51:33 Okay.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 51:33 There's this EVO2 model that they published at the ARC Institute, which Patrick Collison, you know is the, the main funder.

Jason Calacanis 51:38 Yes, we had him on, Jonathan Herman.

David Friedberg 51:39 Thanks for having me.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 51:40 So, that EVO2 model, they just ingested all the DNA data they could find in the world, trillions and trillions of base pair of data that they ingested. And then they looked at patterns in DNA, and that's it. They had no context for what the DNA represented. They had no context for the concept of genes, none of the structured understanding of what that DNA does, what it is. And you know what it did? They fed in the BRCA gene variant, and the thing output a warning saying, "I think that this is a pathogenic variant to DNA," without having any context. This is the, the breast cancer allele.

Jason Calacanis 52:13 Hmm.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 52:13 And it didn't have any knowledge and it did, it wasn't trained on that at all. It had no knowledge that there are pathogenic variants for cancer. And it identified that this was a genetic variant that can cause some sort of pathogenic outcome in the organism. So, that was, that's a great example where there's a lack of understanding at the human level on what really drives some of the patterns in nature, the patterns in society, the patterns in behavior, that are kind of emergent phenomena perhaps, that these AI models are starting to identify. And I think to Jamal's point, we may end up seeing this in things like entertainment as well.

Jason Calacanis 52:43 All right. This has been an amazing debate. We gotta move on. And you know what? We're gonna have more amazing debates September 7th through 9th in Los Angeles at the All In Summit. The lineup is stacked. Alibaba's co-founder, Joe Tsai, Thoma Bravo co-founder, ARK Invest's Cathie Wood, Uber CEO Dara, Sequoia's Roelof Botha, YouTuber Cleo Abram, and many, many more coming. Sax, you get the last word here. Go. Last word to Sax.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 53:05 Well, no, I was just, I was just highlighting this tweet that I saw.

Jason Calacanis 53:09 Hmm.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 53:09 Where talking about Chinese open weight models or basically open source models. So, basically all the leading American models are closed source and all the leading Chinese models are open source. This is kind of the way things-

Jason Calacanis 53:20 They're behind, yeah.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 53:21 ... have, have played out.

Jason Calacanis 53:22 Yeah.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 53:22 It's a pretty good technique for catching up is to open source-

Jason Calacanis 53:25 Yeah, they're behind, yeah.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 53:25 ... because then you get the larger open source developer community helping you out.

Jason Calacanis 53:29 That's great.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 53:29 But the point is just that these open source models are catching up pretty fast. We're ahead in many other aspects. Our chips are a lot better, our data centers are better and so on. And I'd say our closed source models are better. But they have this one area of open source models. So, again, if you hamstring our AI models' access to data by creating a whole bunch of new requirements for contract negotiations, like, we could really lose the AI race. This is a really big deal. It's not a made up concern. I don't know why you think it's made up.

Jason Calacanis 53:56 I never said that it's made up. I think it's an opportunity for America to actually have a distinct advantage, which is that $20 million from Amazon alone is 1% of The New York Times revenue. And that's gonna go directly to the bottom line. It's gonna allow them to hire more journalists. Then that protected site will have, be giving in real time something these language models are gonna have to go hack and steal. That real-time data is gonna be a distinct advantage for Gemini, OpenAI, Amazon, whoever chooses to do it. And we can create a flywheel here-

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 54:24 You have this like nostalgic sort of quasi romantic notions about like journalism and the need to save The New York Times-

Jason Calacanis 54:32 Oh, no, no, art, art, it's also art.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 54:32 ... and all this stuff.

Jason Calacanis 54:33 It's a, I mean, you can say all the derogatory things you want about me personally, Sax.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 54:37 I didn't say it though.

Jason Calacanis 54:38 That argument doesn't work. No, no, you just said I have this whole nostalgia, whatever. When you-

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 54:41 Yeah, you do. You're nostalgic for journalism as it used to exist.

Jason Calacanis 54:44 When I know I've beat you in the debate is when you make it personal like that. It's not personal. I'm not being nostalgic.

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 54:49 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 54:49 I'm trying to create a sustainable, a sustainable advantage for America. And you are our sp- public servant and you're running AI-

Guest (AI / copyright discussion) 54:55 You're trying to create, you're trying to-

Jason Calacanis 54:56 ... you will take my feedback-You will take my feedback.

Chamath Palihapitiya 54:59 We're trying to create-

David Sacks 54:59 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 54:59 You will take my feedback.

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:00 We're gonna ignore your feedback.

Jason Calacanis 55:01 You'll take my feedback-

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:01 We're gonna ignore your feedback.

Jason Calacanis 55:02 ... to a public servant?

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:03 We're throwing it in the (censored) trash.

Jason Calacanis 55:05 No, you take it-

David Sacks 55:06 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:06 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 55:06 ... and I will be showing up at the White House for my tour.

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:09 You have this crazy idea that we're gonna win the AI race by tying one hand behind our backs so that you can subsidize journalists.

David Sacks 55:16 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 55:16 No, you'll get more movies-

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:17 So you can subsidize The New York Times' broken business model. It's insane.

Jason Calacanis 55:19 ... you'll get more music, you'll get more content. You said before you want more training data.

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:22 It's insane.

Jason Calacanis 55:22 Pay for it. Pay for more training data. You're the czar, take it back to POTUS. All right, let's keep moving here. We have to keep moving.

David Sacks 55:30 Oh, my God.

Jason Calacanis 55:30 We have a great... This is great debate.

David Sacks 55:32 Oh, my God.

Jason Calacanis 55:32 Great debate here on the All-In podcast. It's not gonna stop, folks. You're only gonna-

David Sacks 55:36 It's just you yelling. It's just you yelling some things that don't make sense.

Jason Calacanis 55:38 Nah, I'm just... Okay, you can say that, but again-

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:40 You only have, like, three topics, Jake.

Jason Calacanis 55:41 Free bird, free bird.

David Sacks 55:42 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:42 I don't know what's going on with you.

Jason Calacanis 55:43 You can, you can personally attack me like that?

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:44 No, you know what it is? It's like we gotta let in more immigrants, number one.

David Sacks 55:49 High-skilled, high-skilled immigrants.

Chamath Palihapitiya 55:50 Number two, AI's gonna put everyone out of work. By the way, no sense of perceived contradiction between those two things. Number three, we need to, like, subsidize broke journalists.

Jason Calacanis 55:58 Oh, my God. Here comes the personal attacks. I, you know, the audience says all the time-

Chamath Palihapitiya 56:00 No, it's the same topics every time.

Jason Calacanis 56:01 When the three of you guys attack me personally-

David Sacks 56:03 No, Jason, he literally, he's a-

Jason Calacanis 56:05 Hold on. When the audience, when the three of you gang up on me-

Chamath Palihapitiya 56:05 I could create an AI to do your job.

Jason Calacanis 56:07 ... like this, when the three of you gang up on us-

David Sacks 56:09 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 56:09 ... and you personally attack me, the audience comes up to me and they say, "Wow, you really nailed and beat them."

David Sacks 56:13 Have I done that today?

Jason Calacanis 56:14 No, not yet. Not yet. But a little bit of the Ozempic.

David Sacks 56:17 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 56:17 You've just been eating.

Jason Calacanis 56:19 Yeah, that's true. Let him eat. Let the kid eat.

Chamath Palihapitiya 56:20 You've been strangely uninvolved and just eating.

Jason Calacanis 56:22 He's, he's, he's emaciated. He's 11% body fat. Let him eat.

Chamath Palihapitiya 56:26 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 56:26 Let him cook. All right, listen. You and I, Sax, will do more debate, and it's gonna be amazing. All-in dot com, slash, yada yada yada for tickets. Get in there, folks. Uh, we have to get to the docket. We're an hour in and we

Jason Calacanis 56:37 still have all the news.

Chamath Palihapitiya 56:38 We should talk about this, this, um, AI privacy issue that Sam Altman mentioned.

Jason Calacanis 56:41 All right, that's a great segue 'cause I saw that as well, David Sax, and, uh, as our civil servant working on AI, this is something where you can-

David Sacks 56:49 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 56:49 ... have an additional contribution. There's more work we can give you.

David Sacks 56:52 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 56:52 All right, listen, here it is. AI user privacy is becoming an issue because friend of the pod, Sam Altman, says there is no legal confidentiality when using his product, ChatGPT. Here's a 30-second clip. Again, friend of the pod, FAP, Sam Altman, on Thiel-Vaughn.

Sam Altman 57:12 People talk about the most personal shit in their lives to ChatGPT. Young people especially, like, use it as a therapist, a life coach, uh, "Having these relationship problems, what should I do?" And right now, if you talk to a therapist or a lawyer or a doctor about those problems, there's like, legal privilege for it. We haven't figured that out yet for when you talk to ChatGPT. So, if you go talk to ChatGPT about your most sensitive stuff and then there's, like, a lawsuit or whatever, like, we could be required to produce that, and I think that's very screwed up. I think we should have, like, the same concept of privacy for your conversations with AI that we do with a therapist or whatever.

Jason Calacanis 57:45 Okay, Sax, this is bringing up something-

Chamath Palihapitiya 57:47 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 57:47 ... super important. What's your take on it?

Chamath Palihapitiya 57:50 Okay. Well, I, I think this is an interesting topic because, like copyright, this is an area where we have existing law, but it does make you rethink whether those laws are truly applicable or make as much sense in this new world. So, the existing law, the existing example is search history. You know, the government can get a copy of your search history. They can subpoena it.

Jason Calacanis 58:14 Yeah, every true crime story starts with, "The person searched for, 'How do I kill my husband slowly,' with, you know, poison," and then they-

Chamath Palihapitiya 58:21 Yeah.

David Sacks 58:21 Yeah. That's how they catch them.

Chamath Palihapitiya 58:22 Right, exactly. The point is, though, that I think Sam is right about the legal treatment right now, which is that your chat history isn't any different than the search history in the eyes of the law, but it is much more personal, it's much more interactive than your search history. You are using it, like you said, you could use it as your doctor, you could use it as your therapist, you could use it as your lawyer. And so the ability for the federal government to be intrusive is so much greater than with your search history. So, I don't know what, like, the right policy should be yet, but I, I will say it does make me uncomfortable.

Jason Calacanis 59:02 Yeah, there's a market-

Chamath Palihapitiya 59:04 That-

David Sacks 59:04 Can I make a recommendation to my AI czar?

Chamath Palihapitiya 59:06 Yeah. Can I make a favor? Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 59:06 Yes, please.

David Sacks 59:07 He's our servant. Why don't we-

Jason Calacanis 59:08 Please.

David Sacks 59:08 ... why don't we let AI models get bar certified and get medically certified? So, if the AI models, it turns out, are actually proving to be more accurate, more thoughtful, more responsive, more reasonable, whatever it is, whatever metric we're using, and they pass the same criteria as one would need to pass to qualify for the bar or to qualify for a doctor certificate, why don't we do that for the AI? If that then happens, then the same privilege accrues to the AI as it does to the individual human that does it. And now if you extrapolate from where that takes us, if we're suddenly giving AI the same sort of privileged rights that we give to privileged humans, where is that gonna take us ultimately with respect to the overall rights for AI?

Chamath Palihapitiya 59:52 Anyways, that's a longer form-

Jason Calacanis 59:52 Well, and they have responsibility. That... Hold on a second.

David Sacks 59:55 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 59:55 I just wanna point out here, once again, you have a mind-blowing concept here. I've never heard anybody vocalize that. Could they actually be certified in that knowledge? And if they passed the test, makes sense they would, but then you also get-

David Sacks 1:00:06 Right.

Jason Calacanis 1:00:06 ... responsibility. So with great power-

David Sacks 1:00:08 Right.

Jason Calacanis 1:00:08 ... comes great responsibility. I will tell you this. You can turn this stuff off, but this is an opportunity, and I'm gonna send a note to Elon after this.

David Sacks 1:00:14 And it sounds crazy today, but I guarantee if you put it on poly market, there will be a date when this happens.

Jason Calacanis 1:00:17 Let's do it. That's a great poly market.

David Sacks 1:00:18 You will end up-

Jason Calacanis 1:00:18 Shout out to Shane, let's get that out there. I just wanna point out, and I'm gonna email Elon about this when I get off the pod, this is an opportunity to create the signal of, the signal equivalent of an LLM. The all of your chats should be encrypted, all of it should be, by, by default, encrypted by default on Grok, make it so that Grok can't even see it, they don't have it, so when you try to subpoena it from, you can do what Tim Cook does. When he says, like, "I don't have it." You, you, if you wanna try to backdoor it, you can. That's a market opportunity, and I can tell you, I only use the Brave browser and Brave search for this reason. I don't want my search history, like, saved somewhere or whatever. Fuck that. You can take control of this as an individual, but the defaults matter and you have to then do the work. It's a great market opportunity. Chamath, I don't even wanna know what you're talking to ChatGPT about. What are you, what's in your ChatGPT logs?

David Sacks 1:01:06 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:01:06 (laughs) What's in there, Chamath? How to extend? How to get the extra centimeter? What's in there? Are you trying to ...

David Friedberg 1:01:12 Extend. (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:01:13 What's in there?

David Friedberg 1:01:14 I keep asking it to find me a moderator.

Jason Calacanis 1:01:16 Oh, great.

David Friedberg 1:01:17 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:01:17 I keep asking it to find me a participant, who's not a douche. Um ...

David Friedberg 1:01:25 (laughs)

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:01:25 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:01:25 Oh, my God, you are so deep in your villain era and you're leaning into it. And I'm so here for it, Chamath. I love your villain era.

David Friedberg 1:01:31 You know why? I am so ...

Jason Calacanis 1:01:33 Why are you going into your villain era?

David Friedberg 1:01:34 I am so risk-on right now.

Jason Calacanis 1:01:36 You are. Woo.

David Friedberg 1:01:36 It's like, it's liberating actually.

Jason Calacanis 1:01:39 Mm.

David Friedberg 1:01:39 It's amazing. It's really amazing.

Jason Calacanis 1:01:42 I mean, is there any blowback to how outlandish you've become this year? Any blowback at all?

David Friedberg 1:01:47 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:01:47 Has it had any negative consequence on business or hiring or anything?

David Friedberg 1:01:51 No, but out- but outlandish how? How have I been outlandish?

Jason Calacanis 1:01:54 You're, you're, you're just filter off. You're filter off. It is, um ... And I think it's great. I think you're over two windows back. It's absolutely fantastic, we're seeing here.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:01 I asked ChatGPT about my future and, uh, my IQ. It's very interesting when you ask ChatGPT to analyze you.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:07 Mm.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:07 I suggest everyone do it. It's really cool. Well, actually, yeah, when you just ask ChatGPT or whatever, "What do you know about me?"

Jason Calacanis 1:02:13 Mm.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:14 And it's scary how much it already knows.

David Friedberg 1:02:15 It's scary.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:16 There's this great personality test. You can put this personality test into Grok, and this guy, like made this prompt, and it goes and it tells you a- all your personality based on your Twitter, X history. It is wild how accurate it is. Um ...

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:29 What does it say about you, Takeo? I'm actually curious.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:31 It says the same thing about all of us. We're all like network narcissists, ENTJ. You can literally run the Myers-Briggs against your ...

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:02:40 Yeah.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:41 Uh, your chat history. It's actually ... But I like your mind-blowing concept there, by the way, of like them becoming certified in some way.

Jason Calacanis 1:02:48 Okay. Fresh e- economic news. It's time for the administration to take their victory lap. GDP growth was 50% higher than expectations in Q2 as the Fed held rates at 4.25%. In Q1, GDP declined 50 basis points. That's probably due to the imports. People were stockpiling goods.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:07 That's the most pointless chart ever.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:09 Okay. And then, yeah, it is. I agree. It's a little bit, yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:11 It's distorted by one of the-

Jason Calacanis 1:03:13 That- that's my fault. I wanted to have both.

David Friedberg 1:03:14 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:03:14 I wanted to have both as bar charts. This one, because of the-

David Friedberg 1:03:16 You're totally on drugs. Just say it. It's okay.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:18 What al-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:18 What drugs are you on, Nick?

David Friedberg 1:03:20 No, I mean-

Jason Calacanis 1:03:20 I'm not. I had coffee and an app.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:22 He's alped up.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:22 I'm ap- I'm aped up.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:23 He's alped up. (laughs)

David Friedberg 1:03:23 We're all friends, you can tell us. Is it really just alp?

Jason Calacanis 1:03:25 All right, that's it. I'm taking it out.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:03:27 (laughs) Oh my God.

Jason Calacanis 1:03:28 I took it out. And now let's get back to the thing here.

David Friedberg 1:03:31 (laughs)

Jason Calacanis 1:03:31 Okay. The Fed kept rates unchanged for the fifth straight meeting. This time, two out of 11 Fed governors dissented from Powell's decision. Two of the dissenters were both Republicans nominated by Trump, so it seems like the Fed is becoming a little polarized now too. First time in 32 years that more than one governor dissented and, um, yeah, even one person dissenting is rare. Here's a 25-second clip of Powell explaining how GDP factored into the cut decision. Nick, please play the clip.

Jerome Powell 1:04:00 Recent indicators suggest that growth of economic activity has moderated. GDP rose at a 1.2% pace in the first half of this year, down from 2.5% last year. Although the increase in the second quarter was stronger at 3%, focusing on the first half of the year helps smooth through the volatility in the quarterly figures related to the unusual swings in net exports.

Jason Calacanis 1:04:25 The PCE index, and then I'll throw this over to you, Sax, for, for the official position here, uh, for June dropped on Thursday. PC is the Fed's preferred gauge of inflation over CPI. PCE rose 30 bps in June in line with estimates and, um, if you remember, we talked about it in a previous episode, CPI rose a bit, 13% or 30 bps from May to June. So we're not any, we're not close to the 2%, uh, target. And that's what the Fed keeps saying, "We're not there yet." And the economy is el fuego. Sax, you know, I don't know if you noticed this, Sax, but people are talking about the QDP, Q- the second quarter print, which was amazing for GDP. You were talking about it a bunch, Chamath, on the socials. He keeps referencing the first half, so he's trying to blend those two together, I think because of the, the tariff differences or you know, maybe to, to smooth it out as he said. What's your take on this? Uh, the GDP boomed in, you know, 3%, which is pretty great, but is that-

David Friedberg 1:05:20 The, the problem ... No, the problem that Jerome Powell has is that he's trying to smooth it because it allows him to justify his political decision.

Jason Calacanis 1:05:30 Okay.

David Friedberg 1:05:31 But the reason why you have to segregate Q1 and Q2, Q1 was before tariffs and Q2 was after tariffs. So I think you have to segregate these two things. And if you look at the run rate from Q2, what you're probably gonna see in Q3 and beyond is more similar to Q2, which is to say, a large surplus, good GDP expansion, and moderating inflation. So why does the Fed not cut? Because at this point, not cutting is the only thing that you can do to slow the Trump administration down going into the midterms if you wanted to politicize the job. If, however, on the other hand, you just take the data as is, and you ignore Q1 because it was pre-tariff and you start to look at Q2 and you project forward, if you inject 100 basis point cut into the economy, this thing is gonna go gangbusters and Trump is gonna look like an economic genius going into 2026. So I think that, again, in the absence of politics, you cut.

Jason Calacanis 1:06:32 Okay. Sax, what's the take from inside the administration and around it? I know you're not speaking for the President on this issue, but you're in the administration, so I'm assuming you're, you're con-

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:06:40 Yeah, look, I'm not speaking for anyone, but obviously the 3% number is way ahead of expectations. It's a fantastic number. It just feels like, you know, everything's humming on all cylinders here. The one thing you didn't mention, but I think is relevant is the new trade deal with the EU, which-

Jason Calacanis 1:06:55 We're about to get to that, by the way. That's the next story.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:06:58 Oh, okay. Well, I mean, I would include that because-

Jason Calacanis 1:07:00 Okay, go ahead. Include it. Yeah.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:07:02 I mean, I think it was a deal that just got announced where the EU is gonna open its markets to US products, no tariff on US products, but they will pay a 15% tariff coming into the US.They're gonna be investing 600 billion in the US. They're gonna be buying 750 billion of US energy, and then some very large number, I guess they didn't specify a number on defense products, basically American military products-

Jason Calacanis 1:07:28 Yep.

Chamath Palihapitiya 1:07:28 ... hundreds of billions. Which