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Dr. Mohanasankar S | “Students experimenting, building, failing, & learning is now the norm”| Ep. 17

Join us for a fascinating conversation with Prof. Mohanasankar Sivaprakasam about the groundbreaking work happening at IIT Madras. Discover how the Brain Center is creating the world's most comprehensive brain mapping project - slicing brain tissue at just 1/10th of a human hair and imaging at 1/100th resolution! Prof. Mohan shares the incredible engineering challenges behind this work - from preserving delicate brain tissue to processing petabytes of data. We also explore HTIC's mission to develop indigenous medical technologies in India, including their Mobile Cataract Surgery Unit that's bringing sight to thousands in rural areas. Learn why IIT Madras has become a hotbed for innovation, how patents drive research commercialization, and why giving students "absolute freedom to experiment" creates tomorrow's pioneers. 00:00 Introduction 01:07 Meet Professor Mohanasankar Sivaprakasam: The Med Tech Builder 01:37 The Genesis of the Brain Center 02:31 Challenges in Imaging the Human Brain 03:06 Advanced Technology at the Brain Center 04:38 The Engineering Behind Brain Imaging 06:52 AI and Computational Challenges 12:49 Global Collaboration and Impact 17:31 HTIC: Addressing India's Medical Device Needs 24:05 The Mobile Cataract Surgery Unit 27:59 Navigating Trust in Indigenous Medical Tech 30:19 The Economics of Healthcare in India 38:50 The Role of Electrical Engineering in Medical Tech 41:12 Building Solutions: Theory and Practice 41:57 The Evolution of Electrical Engineering 42:31 Innovations in Medical Devices 43:16 Risk-Taking in Research 43:56 Interdisciplinary Approach at IIT Madras 45:39 Curriculum Flexibility and Student Choices 48:44 The Importance of Patents 49:06 Understanding Intellectual Property 52:09 The Role of Publications vs. Patents 52:54 Economic Viability of R&D 55:30 Global Patenting and Commercialization 57:20 Student Involvement in Research 58:21 The Rise of Startups and Entrepreneurship 01:02:02 Changing Student-Faculty Dynamics 01:05:04 Opportunities at Research Labs 01:19:04 Global Exposure and Future Prospects

Dr. Mohanasankar SivaprakasamguestUnknown Hosthost
Mar 17, 20251h 22mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 1:07

    Introduction

    1. MS

      Building solutions require different layers. In fact, you need to have very, very strong theory and foundations. This Brain Center has one of the most advanced technology platforms. What you realize is, this is one of those very unique fields where it is inherently multi and interdisciplinary. We released the most comprehensive digital brain maps of this phase, which today is a public source. [upbeat music]

    2. UH

      Hi, my name is Amrit. We've heard that IIT Madras is the best place to build. [upbeat music] So we've come down to the Sudha and Shankar Innovation Hub. We want to meet some people. These are builders. We want to talk to them about their work, and also ask them, "What makes IIT Madras the best place to build?" [upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to The Best Place to Build podcast.

  2. 1:07 – 1:37

    Meet Professor Mohanasankar Sivaprakasam: The Med Tech Builder

    1. UH

      Today, we have Professor Mohan with us. He's a professor of electrical engineering at IIT Madras, but also heads the Brain Center and HTIC, and is widely regarded as one of India's top medical technology entrepreneurs, investigators. I don't know, what is the right word I should use, Professor?

    2. MS

      You can say builder.

    3. UH

      Builder, right. Top medical tech builder in India. Professor, let's start backwards. Let's talk about the Brain Center, because it's stunning, the work that you're doing, and, uh, yeah, we'd like to hear about

  3. 1:37 – 2:31

    The Genesis of the Brain Center

    1. UH

      it more.

    2. MS

      So before we get to the Brain Center, you'd probably be interested in knowing how the Brain Center got started. It actually started with an alumnus, Mr. Kris Gopalakrishnan, who needs no introduction. So in about 2015, '16, uh, when he stepped off of Infosys, he wanted to seed something at IIT Madras that can do really cutting-edge research work related to brain. But he said something very interesting, and I quote that word, "At the intersection of neuroscience and engineering."

    3. UH

      Right.

    4. MS

      So this was the seed that he sowed, uh, in 2015, '16, and then there were several discussions on what we could do, something that's really puts India at the frontier, absolutely cutting edge, leading edge of this field.

  4. 2:31 – 3:06

    Challenges in Imaging the Human Brain

    1. MS

      And then, so several ideas, we said, "Can we image the human brain at cellular resolution?"

    2. UH

      Okay.

    3. MS

      To give you a context, today we can see the human brain only at millimeter. Uh, the brain cells are about ten micron, 20 micron, and there are about a few hundred billions of them in the brain, and we have not seen them, right? It's one of the few organs which is... We've not even seen. So even the what part of the question is not answered, then the how part of the question, why part of the question comes.

    4. UH

      Right.

    5. MS

      And that's how this project got started.

  5. 3:06 – 4:38

    Advanced Technology at the Brain Center

    1. MS

      And today, this Brain Center, uh, has one of the most advanced technology platforms that can take in a human brain, a postmortem, uh, which is extracted in a, in a very, very delicate and a very, uh, high-quality manner, so that the cellular architecture and the connectivity inside the brain is preserved. And through a series of processes, which we'll perhaps talk about, uh, in a while, gets the entire map of the human brain.

    2. UH

      Okay.

    3. MS

      And we are not doing it just for one brain or one set of brains. We are on our way to perhaps produce the world's, world's most comprehensive set of human brain maps, starting from fetus all the way to hundred-plus-year-old, across age groups, across disease groups, various diseases, uh, connected to the h- uh, human brain. And so this, the first set of results that we had released in December, that has already received significant global attention and acclaim. Uh, this is the first time India has produced, uh, such high-quality human neuroscience results, which are out there in public. So if you're wondering, uh, so you started your thing saying med tech, uh, entrepreneurling, and everything, what you realize is, this is one of those very unique fields where it is inherently multi and interdisciplinary, right?

    4. UH

      Yeah, because you're talking of taking a cadaver brain and slicing it, and imaging it, right? So and there, there's a lot of engineering involved

  6. 4:38 – 6:52

    The Engineering Behind Brain Imaging

    1. UH

      in just doing that.

    2. MS

      Absolutely, right. So I'll put out two questions, right? So for people to think, right? If I give it as your thought exercise, so here is a brain. I want this to be imaged at, you know, one micron resolution, the entire brain. So you can do a quick calculation, right? So the, the brain is about, you know, thousand three hundred, thousand two hundred centimeter cube, about one and a half liters, three ml packets, if you're half a liter ml packet, right, to think about. Uh, if I have to resolve this entire thing at one- half a micron to one micron, how will you go about doing this? Right. Light cannot penetrate beyond a few hundred micron.

    3. UH

      Mm.

    4. MS

      So that means that you have to slice it.

    5. UH

      So it cannot be a CT scan or a MRI scan.

    6. MS

      Yeah. So today's CT and MR, uh, gives you a millimeter-level resolution.

    7. UH

      Okay.

    8. MS

      So we're talking about one-thousandth of it.

    9. UH

      Okay.

    10. MS

      Right? So how will you do one-thousandth, right? Light cannot penetrate tissue in a reliable way beyond a few tens of micron to a hundred micron, which means you have to slice it. Now, if you have ever sliced anything, uh, in the kitchen or, you know, when you're playing around, right, uh, you will realize the thinner you slice, easier it is it's going to break. So how, how can you slice something five micron to 20 micron? This is when we slice, right, but very large section.

    11. UH

      So I, I'm just thinking five micron is probably thinner than the knife edge itself, right?

    12. MS

      It is. So the way to look at five microns is, you know, your hair is about 50 to 100 micron, right?

    13. UH

      Okay.

    14. MS

      Uh, so that's about-... so five, five to seven micron is, uh, about red blood cell size, which is one of the smallest cells in the human body. Uh, so you need to slice something at almost one-tenth of a human hair-

    15. UH

      A hair.

    16. MS

      -human hair, and then you image these-

    17. UH

      Okay

    18. MS

      ... at one-hundredth of a human hair, huh? Because you're imaging this in plane, right? You cut it at ten micron, twenty micron. Now you have these sections, right? Which there are a lot of physical complications of how will you actually transfer this section into a glass slide so that you can image them.

    19. UH

      Right. So first I have to cut them that thin-

    20. MS

      Yes.

    21. UH

      -and make sure that they don't break.

    22. MS

      Yes.

    23. UH

      Then I have to transfer it to something.

    24. MS

      It should not break during that process.

    25. UH

      And that transfer should be stable.

    26. MS

      Right.

    27. UH

      And then in that transfer, I'm taking, like, maybe ten images at a cross-section.

  7. 6:52 – 12:49

    AI and Computational Challenges

    1. MS

      Yeah. So when you do this imaging, right, you will produce data which is hundreds of gigabytes per brain section.

    2. UH

      Okay.

    3. MS

      Right? So if you do a quick calculation, you realize the entire adult brain is about few petabytes.

    4. UH

      Okay.

    5. MS

      Right. Petabytes is large, even in our, you know-

    6. UH

      Yeah

    7. MS

      ... modern digital world, right?

    8. UH

      Yeah.

    9. MS

      I mean-

    10. UH

      Ten hard disks.

    11. MS

      Uh, much more actually, right? So if you take a laptop, it's about one terabyte, more like thousand-

    12. UH

      Thousand laptops.

    13. MS

      -laptops.

    14. UH

      Right.

    15. MS

      And this is now comparable to, you know, at the si- order of Google Maps, the entire world, right? So that will be in several petabytes, right. So how will you... So we, we walk through, right? We started with the brain, then we talked about engineering. How will you cut it? Well, there's another question: How will you cut something so soft and delicate, huh? Because it's going to roll, it's going to warp, right? So you have to freeze it. You have to freeze the brain. But when you freeze something which has so much water, it's going to expand and it's going to crack. Now, how do you freeze something without cracking it, right? So there is thermodynamics involved, there is huge mechanical engineering involved. Then you have this instrumentation, how it'll slice, how will it transfer it to a glass section, glass, uh, slide? How will you transfer this tissue section to a glass slide? Then how will you image them at a reasonable speed? Because this cannot take too long, right? We want to-

    16. UH

      Yeah

    17. MS

      ... image, uh, you know, X number of brains, and we are on our way to image hundred-plus human brains in the next couple of years. And then now you have this digital data, and now you realize the problem has just started. So now you have ten thousand sections. Now you have to put it together, right? Which is a huge computational challenge, right? Both from a, an algorithm perspective and also from a, a computing perspective. So which we are done, and, uh, you can look it up. So we released the, uh, most comprehensive second trimester, which is an important brain development phase, starting from twelve weeks fetus to twenty-four weeks, right? Uh, we released the, the most comprehensive digital brain maps of this phase, which today is a public, uh, resource, right? So how will you put it back together? Then, how will you analyze that, right?

    18. UH

      Right.

    19. MS

      How will you... Maybe today we're talking about, uh, using AI for many things, and in fact, this is actually a significant AI challenge, right? How do you count billions of cells in a human brain?

    20. UH

      Sure, I understand what you're saying. You've taken all this engineering effort to digitalize it. It also has to be ready to be used, uh, by further research teams who are looking for something. So what kind of research does this unlock?

    21. MS

      Right. So different levels, right? So first is direct, which is for the first time, we are seeing the human brain in detail. And you will be surprised that we actually know very little things about the human brain. Even the first order, how many cells are there in what region?

    22. UH

      Hmm.

    23. MS

      Right. Which is, you know, you would think that that's one of the first things that you would know. And what's the pattern? What is the density? Right. What are the different cell types? Now we're getting into neurobiology, right? The different cell types in the brain, right? And these cannot be unlocked unless you have the whole brain data, and unless you move to the digital domain and use computing tools. This is the only way, because you cannot do this naked eye, definitely not, even by, you know, by your, you know, pen and paper.

    24. UH

      Right.

    25. MS

      So eventually, you need this. So that is the first set of, um, you know, discoveries that are starting to happen. While you're doing this, you... The medical applications of this, right? So because we cannot image the human brain at anything better than a millimeter or so, now, early diagnosis and treatment have not had any major advancements in neuroscience for a while, because, you know, we have not had detailed pictures of the human brain. So that will be the next set of breakthroughs that will happen. Now, while you're doing all this, you are developing tools, right? Uh, engineering tools-

    26. UH

      Hmm

    27. MS

      ... which both are hardware, uh, and software. But of course, today, hardware and software are literally together.

    28. UH

      Yeah.

    29. MS

      So the kind of hardware tools, the kind of computing platform which we use to actually process this kind of data, visualize... How do you visualize petabytes, right? And how do you visualize petabytes without you needing a supercomputer, right? And in fact, today, we have built a, a viewer, which actually you can see this on your mobile phone, [phone vibrating] this, uh, this cell resolution data. You can see this on your phone because the way the visualization is run-

    30. UH

      Hmm

  8. 12:49 – 17:31

    Global Collaboration and Impact

    1. MS

      and we have over thirty international collaborators, uh, who work with IIT Madras, who are, are at IIT Madras, uh, for significant portion of, of the year, are doing this work.

    2. UH

      So to recap, uh, Krish Gopalkrishnan, who's an alumnus, um, after he had the time and effort, uh, came back to IIT Madras and said, "Maybe we can do something in the brain side. Uh, what ideas do we have?" And, uh, he was very insistent that it should be at the cutting edge of technology or the bleeding edge. And then we sort of investigated what are the various gaps, and we came up with this, and that's how this project started. You were talking about it a little bit. It requires a lot of collaboration from hospitals, um, other agencies. I don't know, who... Does this- I- has this become like a collaboration management challenge?

    3. MS

      So it's interesting, there are several challenges in the project, and one of them is the collaboration. M- I mean, we don't manage the collaborations, right? I mean, usually the best collaborators are the one who you can lean on-

    4. UH

      Yeah

    5. MS

      ... and who lean on you, right?

    6. UH

      Okay.

    7. MS

      So that's a very important point that you brought in, which is when you do extremely complex challenges like this, as I said, invariably, it is both multidisciplinary, which means there are different disciplines that we... And interdisciplinary, which is two disciplines or sometimes three, four disciplines have to work with each other, not just aggregate the, uh, expertise and information. So in fact, if I have to list the, you know, the fields, mm, it'll be around thirty, thirty-five fields-

    8. UH

      Mm.

    9. MS

      ... starting from engineering. If I were to break it down into different engineering, instrumentation, you know, photonics, uh, computing, mechanical, right, uh, electronics, then in neuroscience, different, uh, subfields of neuroscience-

    10. UH

      You will need-

    11. MS

      ... and medicine.

    12. UH

      And you'll need collaborators in each of these?

    13. MS

      Exactly, right. And in today's world, the-- because of specializations, right, these are also in different institutions-

    14. UH

      Mm

    15. MS

      ... and in different parts of the world. So this particular center today has close to thirty, thirty-five global collaborators, and it works with about fifteen to twenty medical institutions, both, uh, in India and outside India, right? And y- you said collaboration management. Actually, the way it really happens is, you set a very powerful mission where it attracts, you know, the best. Right? And today, IIT Madras has been able to attract the very best, who work with IIT Madras, in fact, physically spend time at IIT Madras. And as a result, this project has really become a, a globally visible and a globally significant project. Over the next two years, you'll find as more and more, uh, human brain data come out of it and discoveries come out of it, uh, new findings come out of it, it truly is actually becoming a global project.

    16. UH

      Can I ask you, if you are a researcher in brain science somewhere in the world, and you want this kind of data, is it accessible only from here, or are there other institutes across the world?

    17. MS

      Absolutely. It is accessible, literally... I mean, the iPad that you have, you can actually go to, I don't know the exact, um, uh- [chuckles]

    18. UH

      URL

    19. MS

      ... uh, URL, right?

    20. UH

      I got it. [chuckles]

    21. MS

      And it's public.

    22. UH

      Yeah.

    23. MS

      It's public, and you can actually... In fact, it's purposefully made that way because we wanted this data not only to be absolutely public, we want it to be accessible from, you know, a high school student, all the way to a senior researcher, and today it is available.

    24. UH

      Are there other labs across the world doing the same thing?

    25. MS

      There are other labs that are doing, uh, different variants, uh, but we are one of the very few groups that are doing whole brain.

    26. UH

      Okay.

    27. MS

      So you can actually take pieces of the brain, right, and do, do this, and you can do molecular-level analysis. But to do the whole brain, because from a medical perspective, right, you actually need this whole brain data for you to compare it with different diseases, different age groups. One of the challenges is actually this large size and volume.

    28. UH

      Understand.

    29. MS

      And that challenge can be solved only if you have a scalable technology, which is driven by engineering.

    30. UH

      Understood.

  9. 17:31 – 24:05

    HTIC: Addressing India's Medical Device Needs

    1. UH

      And I think, uh, in HTIC, it's more towards the latter, right? It's more, uh, solutions that will solve problems right now. Um, was it a conscious choice in the Brain Center to look at something very more, more foundational?

    2. MS

      It is. So we'll come to HTIC, uh, i- in a while, right? So HTIC is developing technologies for today and the next few years, because it is solving a problem of lack of indigenous technologies and indigenous med tech products.

    3. UH

      Mm.

    4. MS

      Right? So today, you know, we are in twenty twenty-five, our consumption of medical device products in India is close to a lakh crore, right? It was about thirty thousand crore, forty thousand crore when we started this, about twenty, twenty twelve. So out of this, we practically are importing-... all the high-tech products.

    5. UH

      I, I remember someone telling me that if you walk into a hospital or if you walk into a dentist, the, even the thing that he puts in the mouth that keeps your mouth open, that is also imported.

    6. MS

      True.

    7. UH

      And, um, and the thermometer is imported sometimes, and the, the device that sort of plugs into your system and checks your vitals, those are imported. It's ridiculous.

    8. MS

      It is. So out of this one lakh crore, I mean, today we're importing 80% more.

    9. UH

      Essentially.

    10. MS

      This needs to be, you know, addressed, right? I mean, this, this grows and healthcare is growing in India. India itself is growing at a healthy rate, right? So healthcare usually goes at, you know, one and a half to two times the GDP rate, and we are als- our life expectancy is increasing, and our aging is increasing. So these technologies and technology products, right, it was a conscious decision when we started this center in 2011, 2012-

    11. UH

      The HTIC center.

    12. MS

      HTIC, yeah. That we will work with industry and the hospitals to develop these technologies, and work with industry all the way, all the way, right, uh, to actually commercialize these products and make it available.

    13. UH

      I want to say one thing before we go into that. A lot of times when we are importing products, um, they are priced at a US market, and, and in the US market, insurance pays for things, and, you know, the pricing is totally different. And, um, maybe it's affordable to them, but I think that's also not true. When you convert it and bring it here, it's extremely expensive sometimes, right?

    14. MS

      So it is expensive, and it also is not accessible, right? So even if I give you... Let's say, I donate a machine to you, which means the cost is zero, except probably the transport-

    15. UH

      Sure

    16. MS

      ... logistics cost. You actually don't know how to maintain it.

    17. UH

      Mm.

    18. MS

      When I say maintain, run it. When something goes wrong, who will service it?

    19. UH

      Yeah.

    20. MS

      Right? Uh, how will you now upgrade it, right? How will you adapt to a new environment? So you cannot have a situation where you're completely dependent on imports for life-saving related issues.

    21. UH

      Yes.

    22. MS

      Right? So that's, that's what... So while HTIC is attacking the today and the next few years, usually, uh, most of our projects are in such a way that, you know, we are attacking a current import substitution, right? And innovating on India-specific needs context. So the Brain Center is, in one way, doing the other end of the spectrum, which is we need to own the scientific knowledge, right? So here, the medical technology knowledge, right, was actually not developed here.

    23. UH

      Yeah.

    24. MS

      So many- I mean, as we-

    25. UH

      Sure.

    26. MS

      That's why we call it Western medicine, because the, the foundational principles of, you know, practice, the process, the procedure, and even, uh, numbers, I mean, all this 120 by 80, which we were just talking before the podcast, it all comes from the West. So the Brain Center, in one way, is taking a more ambitious and a more deeper approach.

    27. UH

      Very twen- 20-year kind of, uh-

    28. MS

      Right, 20 year, many things will happen, of course. We, we are expecting, uh, these results to start getting translated-

    29. UH

      Sure

    30. MS

      ... into clinical practice over the next few years. But the key is, you have to own scientific knowledge-

  10. 24:05 – 27:59

    The Mobile Cataract Surgery Unit

    1. UH

      I particularly want to know, uh, about the mobile cataract unit, because it sounds like a very immediate problem, right? So maybe we can-- uh, you can give us an idea of, uh, how HTIC started and what it is now.

    2. MS

      So HTIC is essentially a medical devices R&D center, but an R&D that is explicitly focused on developing technologies and products-... that will be commercialized. Okay, so we measure our success through industry success, the industry partners who work with us, which is, uh, how many, uh, h- how many products they've been able to, uh, put out on the market, how many patients it has touched, because at the end of the day, healthcare is about human impact.

    3. UH

      Yeah.

    4. MS

      So the center got started essentially, you know, with the premise in around 2010, uh, that, you know, we are importing 80, 90% of... At the time it was around 30, 30 to 40,000 crores of medical de-, uh, device consumption of India. And, uh, you know, we knew that it's going to grow, and which has today reached one lakh crore. We said, "You know, we have to start making a dent in this," and that's how it started, right? But we quickly realized that everything was at a nascent stage.

    5. UH

      Yeah.

    6. MS

      The industry was small. Now, IITs were doing, you know, med tech, but from a, mostly from an academic standpoint, because industry is also very small. And hospitals, right, hospitals and healthcare agencies, they're also... I mean, they're- you know, as you know, our hospitals are, you know, loaded with, uh, clinical-

    7. UH

      Yeah

    8. MS

      ... and patient care. So the doctors don't have enough time to, you know, work with IITs and industries. So you realize already this, even the, the, the lay of the land is actually very complex-

    9. UH

      Yeah

    10. MS

      ... and very nascent. So we took a conscious decision that we will set up this center explicitly with this mission, so that we can bring in all these people with the goal of developing this medical device. Today, uh, there are about 12 products, and there are various technology pieces that have come out of it. There are close to 12 products, and m- many of them are in the pipeline, so that'll become, like, 15 in the next, uh, three to six months, that have gone out in the market. And till date, it has impacted close to around 1.4 crore patients. And this includes global market.

    11. UH

      Yeah.

    12. MS

      Uh, largely Indian market, but, uh, there is- there are products that are out there in about 40, 50 countries. And this is the path it traversed, right? Uh, starting from, you know, 2012 till today. And over the next few years, we are sort of anticipating that there'll be almost 10 million patients, about a crore patients, impacted by these technologies every year.

    13. UH

      Understood.

    14. MS

      Right? So that's, that's the scale that at which this impact is being created.

    15. UH

      Understood. So i- in healthcare devices segment, there's, uh, a lot of subdivision, right? There's, uh, surgical care, there's eye care, um, heart, skin, whatever. Like, the e- each, each super specialty in a hospital will have its own set of devices.

    16. MS

      Actually, that's one of the challenges when you do this type of work.

    17. UH

      Yeah.

    18. MS

      It's not a, it's not a horizontal platform.

    19. UH

      Exactly.

    20. MS

      There is... Everything is vertical.

    21. UH

      Yeah, but-

    22. MS

      Sorry, go ahead.

    23. UH

      And a lot of relearning in each, right? So I've seen that, uh, HTIC has, uh, I think, three or four devices in eye care alone. Maybe we can talk a little bit more detail about these, and then maybe we can understand the challenges that you come across. So I think the project that I have seen, maybe it was one of the first projects that came out, uh, the mobile cataract surgery unit.

    24. MS

      Yeah.

    25. UH

      Um, so what I understand from it is that, um, it's in use, and 30,000, 40,000 surgeries have been done with it, right? So, um, it sounds great, but when I talk to other medical tech entrepreneurs, and when they talk about developing med tech for India,

  11. 27:59 – 30:19

    Navigating Trust in Indigenous Medical Tech

    1. UH

      a lot of the time what they say is that hospitals in India or buyers, uh, for devices, don't trust Indian tech as much. They would rather just buy from the West, um, because they don't want to take the risk. Uh, how do you navigate this? And first of all, is it true?

    2. MS

      It is true. So the short answer, well... Sorry, please con- uh, yeah-

    3. UH

      How do you navigate this? Like, how do you convince someone like, uh, uh, I think, um, Shankar Nettravali, uh, I think that is the main, uh, buyer of this product, right? How do you convince them to trust the in- indigenous technology and use it?

    4. MS

      So in addition to this complexity of, you know, how do you develop technologies, so there is a, there is a handicap, right? Uh, which is structural and systemic, which is today there's no duty for importing a medical device, because it's a life-saving device, right? Naturally, little bit. But there is duty for components-

    5. UH

      Oh

    6. MS

      ... if you have to get them, and you have to build this device.

    7. UH

      Okay.

    8. MS

      Right? So, I mean, just imagine from a business standpoint, and with the cost of capital India has, I would rather buy and sell, right, and trade. Right? This is number one. Number two, because India was late to this, almost like 20, 30 years, right? I mean, medical devices, modern medical devices have been there since, you know, '70s, '80s, definitely '90s, right? So we sort of have been importing practically everything.

    9. UH

      Yeah.

    10. MS

      So there is also practice and habit, which all of us, you and I, have, right? We like a certain type of coffee, we like a certain type of, uh, cloth, right? And if it's available, and if I can afford it, I buy it, yeah. So there is this inherent practice and habit of, you know, being comfortable with the device, which is, you know, imported, because that was what was available. So you start with this handicap, right? So now you introduce a new device, which even if you make it affordable, right? Then there's other factors, right? I'm used to a, a certain way, I'm used to the person, relationship, and, you know, right from, you know, the look and feel of it.

    11. UH

      Sure.

    12. MS

      Right? And one thing which you have to realize, in India, we know how to... In fact, India has been extremely successful in making healthcare affordable.

  12. 30:19 – 38:50

    The Economics of Healthcare in India

    1. MS

      Average healthcare spending in India per person is around, you know, $80 to $100, right? About 6,000 to 8,000 rupees. This includes all of us.

    2. UH

      Correct.

    3. MS

      Average-

    4. UH

      Even at surgical care level, uh, I mean, obviously there are a lot of people coming from abroad to India to have their surgeries right, because it's cheaper.

    5. MS

      ... so at six thousand to eight thousand rupees, you can do the quick calculation, right? Six thousand to eight thousand rupees, this includes pharmaceuticals, all salaries. This includes, uh, healthcare for even people like at the top one person-

    6. UH

      Yeah

    7. MS

      - just us, right? At six thousand to eight thousand rupees, we are providing this kind of high quality healthcare to a large number of people. So the economics of it works out in such a way I can afford to import.

    8. UH

      Ah.

    9. MS

      Right? I can afford to import because of the volume in terms of patient load and services. But if you continue to import, right, I mean, this number goes up, and eventually it can become a strategic problem also. We saw what happened during COVID.

    10. UH

      Sure.

    11. MS

      Right? I mean, ventilators were not available, various things were sort of embargoed, right? These challenges eventually build up to a point where it can become a serious strategic issue, right? So this is the lay of the land. I think we are still, uh-

    12. UH

      Right. So just, just to clarify, what you're saying is that if, if I look at something like eye surgery, and I take all of the eye surgery equipment that somebody has to buy, because I'm doing so many eye surgeries, importing it is okay, even if it is at a higher cost.

    13. MS

      Yes, because our cost of service-

    14. UH

      Mm

    15. MS

      ... which is about fifty percent, right, of healthcare, a little more, okay? Is extremely cheap, right? And that's why we, we can provide at such price points.

    16. UH

      Right.

    17. MS

      Now, let's go back to the mobile eye surgery unit. So it started with a conversation with Dr. Badarinath, who's truly the doyen of-

    18. UH

      Yeah

    19. MS

      ... eye care, India. And I still remember this conversation in about, uh, two thousand and nine, ten, late two thousand and nine, early two thousand and ten. Uh, I had, uh, you know, worked in US, where I was very fortunate to develop some really cool cutting-edge ophthalmic devices to restore vision in blind patients by electrically stimulating the retina, so the back of the eye. Yeah. So, you know, here I am, this young, uh, sort of idealistic, sort of naive, uh, professor. I'm in Dr. Badarinath's office, and he's like: "Oh, Professor, you've done all this, uh, you know, complex medical devices. Congratulations! Uh, but do you know, what are the leading causes of blindness in India?"

    20. UH

      Mm.

    21. MS

      And, uh, obviously, I know where this is going, right? He's going to just literally dunk me. And, uh, I said, "Diabetic retinopathy," because, you know... He said, "No, it is refraction and cataract," right? People are still blind with cataract. This cataract is essentially, it's a normal aging process that happens-

    22. UH

      Yeah

    23. MS

      ... uh, and the lens becomes opaque. And actually, I was quite shocked that I was actually feeling a little bit ashamed that I didn't know this, that cataract is a leading cause of blindness in India, right? And then he explained it to me as to why it is, right? The cataract surgery costs in India are some of the lowest, and many of our eye institution do it at free of cost for people who cannot afford it. So the cost problem has gone away. So now it's very interesting, right? If I take the cost out, so you should be wondering like, "Oh, where is the problem?" The problem is one of access-

    24. UH

      Mm

    25. MS

      ... right? Especially in, uh, semi-urban, definitely rural areas. Once you become old, and once you start losing your vision, your value within the family, within the society, starts going down. Now, somebody needs to take you to get this surgery done, and usually it takes about, you know, five to seven trips, starting from, you know, going for the first set of examinations, come back, uh, sometime two or three, and then you go for the surgery, then the post-op care, right? Because there are no surgical facilities. So remember, so this is now an India-specific, India-context need. So there are no surgical facilities in rural area. You cannot build them. There are various other structural reasons why, even if you build them, you cannot maintain them at such high quality. You can't have surgeons there all the time. So you need a, a solution that will have a high quality surgical facility be accessible to them without them having to travel. Now, you realize suddenly this becomes an engineering technology platform problem. It's also a process, uh, a problem.

    26. UH

      Sure.

    27. MS

      How would you create, build such a facility which has to be affordable? You cannot build such a facility that is unaffordable, that increases the cost of the, the surgery, then, no, it's not viable, which can actually go into these rural areas. Now, you break it down, you realize you need a mobile platform that has all these facilities of what you will get in an operation theater in a city, but with no amenities, air, water, even a flat piece of land, right? Which you can go and park yourself. None of this is available. Now, you have to build it. So in fact, that was our first project, right?

    28. UH

      Right.

    29. MS

      Uh, and, uh, you know, uh, Dr. Gerard Joseph, who's today a faculty colleague, uh, he was a fresh- well, fresh out of PhD, almost about to be out of PhD school. So, you know, he was one of the, the key people who drove this. And then we had other faculty, Dr. Jaishankar, Dr. Jagdish Kumar. We took up this project, and we built this entire platform. It's the first time, uh, a mobile cataract surgery platform is built in India. And remember, building it is only one challenge. Now, you have to operationalize this, which means the surgeons have to be comfortable with this. Then we had to go and convince the government, because the government had banned cataract surgeries outside of hospital because of other reasons. So remember how complex suddenly this becomes, right? If you do surgeries outside a hospital in a makeshift facility or a tent, which, uh, people had done in the nineties, you end up with eye infection, and you lose your eye.

    30. UH

      Okay. So government-

  13. 38:50 – 41:12

    The Role of Electrical Engineering in Medical Tech

    1. MS

      among all this, you're a professor in electrical engineering. Yeah. So that's my primary job. [chuckles] I mean, that's my job, that, that pays my salary. Yeah. So, uh, I want to [chuckles] firstly, it sounds like, um, uh, it sounds like how, how does one aggregate electrical engineering and medical technology, is it...? And also, like, I want to comment on the nature of modern engineering, right? It's not very siloed. So can we start with what courses do you take? So I teach, uh, instrumentation- Okay ... engineering, and an elective called Biomedical Electronic Systems. Okay. Mm-hmm. Uh, so these are the, uh, two, uh, courses, and then there are various, uh, labs and, you know, project-based courses that teach around them. But this is largely what I, uh, teach, uh, instrumentation and biomedical electronics, what I teach. Right. So, and, um, and from that, uh, uh, i- traditionally, IIT Madras has, in electrical, what I've understood, maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong, if I'm wrong, uh, electrical engineering has been very strong in power systems, in VLSI, and in communication technologies, and now this is totally different, right? It is instrumentation and medical devices. Was it a conscious choice, or did it happen organically? So, you know, I was hired into it, so, uh, I can, uh, I can only, uh, uh, speculate, right? Uh, but what is interesting, you mentioned something, I was just reflecting on the way, uh, you said it, powers. So electrical engineering, particular department, has always laid focus on, you know, experimenting and building things. So you look at, you know, continuously, sort of, people, uh, you know, Professor Janjunwala, Professor Bhaskar Ramamurti- Uh, yeah. - uh, you know, absolute leaders who defined- Yeah ... uh, the field. Um, you know, Shanti Pawan- Yeah ... who was a VLSI leader. Then we have, uh, the young leaders, like Professor Radhakrishna Ganti, and many more, right? If you look at, you know, a thread or a pattern, right? These are all essentially builders, uh, people on different levels, right? I mean, you build systems, you build technologies, uh, you know, you build products, you build things, right? Building necessarily doesn't mean there is this misconception, that building means like: "Oh, I have to build hardware." Absolutely. I mean, uh- It's like build means there is always something that you're connecting or, you know- Yeah ... stacking or- A bridge ... uh, or- Yeah ... or putting it together. Yeah. Engineering essentially means

  14. 41:12 – 41:57

    Building Solutions: Theory and Practice

    1. MS

      solving problems. Right. I mean, it's... Uh, so building solutions require different layers, right? In fact, you need to have very, very strong theory and foundations for you to build solutions. Right. And while you're building solutions, you need various other skills, right? Skills of, uh, building solutions that are scalable, not just a, uh, one that works in the lab. Then build products requires additional skills, right? Supply chain. Where will you get this raw material from, right? Will this raw material, uh, uh, be your bottleneck? Correct. Right? What are the legacy problems? What are the legacy problem, and how will you maintain it? How will you update it? And then it goes on, right? Yeah.

  15. 41:57 – 42:31

    The Evolution of Electrical Engineering

    1. MS

      So electrical engineering has always had this, uh, continuous streak of, you know, I'm using the word building again- Yeah ... right? Uh, and I guess somewhere around late two thousands, so they said, "You know, we'll experiment with, uh, you know, medical devices, healthcare, largely." And I was, as I was mentioning earlier, um, I was, you know, lucky to have been working on a particular project, which essentially built the electronic chip. I was actually a chip designer. I mean, this is actually not well known. Okay.

  16. 42:31 – 43:16

    Innovations in Medical Devices

    1. MS

      Uh, so I was a chip designer who designed this electronic chip that electrically stimulates, electronically s- delivers electrical current, right, a few tens of microamps to hundreds of microamps, to the retina to create light perception.... right? In a certain kinds of blindnesses, retinitis pigmentosa, so people who are, uh, familiar with it, right? So I was doing that, and, uh, you know, uh, I think I gave a talk sometime in 2008, '9, uh, and this happened, right? But what is interesting is the institute was willing to experiment and take a risk of, you know, doing this area, setting up a

  17. 43:16 – 43:56

    Risk-Taking in Research

    1. MS

      center which is explicitly focused on translational R&D. So that's a, it's a big risk, right? I mean, what if industry was not willing to co-op, you know, work with or hospitals were not, uh, uh, ready, but, you know, we were able to put it together. Um, you know, several senior faculty, Professor Janinwala, Professor Bhaskar Ramamurti supported this, and then now today, it is a self-sustaining center. So that risk taking, right, and that you realize now it's become, you know, so natural-

    2. UH

      At IIT Madras

    3. MS

      ... like, you know-

    4. UH

      It is-

    5. MS

      People are building all kinds of things, right?

    6. UH

      Yeah.

    7. MS

      We don't look at that as, "Oh, will this work or not?" We're like, "We'll build it and see."

  18. 43:56 – 45:39

    Interdisciplinary Approach at IIT Madras

    1. UH

      And also nobody says, "This is electrical, do only this," or, "This is, uh, mechanical, do only-"

    2. MS

      Absolutely not, right? So the moment you're building, right, I mean, today we are in, uh, we're in C5, and look at this, right? I mean, what do you see? You see all kinds of things, no, I mean, around you. So the con... See, departments were created, right, I mean, starting from early 1900s, right? For focus, for administrative reasons-

    3. UH

      Yeah.

    4. MS

      Right? But systems, right, both natural as well as, you know, uh, human-made, they are not electronic systems, they're not electrical system. The percentage of this may be higher-

    5. UH

      Yeah.

    6. MS

      Right? The expertise that is needed for that may be higher. A bridge is like mechanical and civil and, you know, a mobile phone is, you know, electronics and everything. But actually, you know, then electronics, I mean, you take, uh, the mobile phone, the cooling of it is actually a mechanical engineering problem.

    7. UH

      I understand what you're saying. You're saying that, um, the, the divisions that we create are sometimes more for administrative reasons than for physical reasons. And a body is a-

    8. MS

      Administrative curriculum, right?

    9. UH

      Uh, fair enough. And you look at the human body, uh, often I've heard medical practitioners say that we do super specializations, but the human body doesn't care whether-

    10. MS

      Yeah

    11. UH

      ... you're a heart doctor or a diabetes doctor or whatever. It's a continuous system. And, uh, on that vein, I was also thinking that, uh, because you said about curriculum, um, there is no real reason to have a class for fifty minutes, other than the fact that it's easy to put it in a timetable.

    12. MS

      That's true.

    13. UH

      Sometimes you go to class and you're like: "Oh, I can take a three-hour continuous lecture on it," or sometimes-

    14. MS

      Which you do sometimes, [chuckles] right? I mean...

    15. UH

      Yeah, fair enough. Okay.

    16. MS

      And so since you mentioned curriculum, sorry, uh,

  19. 45:39 – 48:44

    Curriculum Flexibility and Student Choices

    1. MS

      slight digression. So that's why today, if you take the curriculum-

    2. UH

      Mm

    3. MS

      ... we have made almost half the courses as free electives.

    4. UH

      Yeah.

    5. MS

      You can take whatever you want.

    6. UH

      Yeah.

    7. MS

      Right? The first two, three years, we sort of, you know, hold you to the curriculum on a four-year thing. About two years is what we hold you to a curriculum.

    8. UH

      Yeah.

    9. MS

      Then we let you... In fact, we encourage you to explore anything and everything-

    10. UH

      Right

    11. MS

      ... both inside the classrooms, just, you know, uh, credits, right, and outside the class.

    12. UH

      Yeah, I've spoken to it about, about this to a lot of students who are joining IITs fresh, uh, and their parents. And, uh, sometimes they feel liberated about it, like, "Wow, we can choose." Sometimes they get really confused, because what does this mean?

    13. MS

      Too much information, right?

    14. UH

      Yeah.

    15. MS

      Uh.

    16. UH

      Um, and where will I end up? And things like that. And I guess it'll take some time for everyone to internal- internalize the fact that, uh, forty to fifty percent of the curriculum is in your hands. So even though you may have joined as electrical engineer, you may leave as a biomedical engineer or something like that.

    17. MS

      In fact, no, I will slightly push back on even that, right? You know, what you study is, in one way, an exercise of how to learn.

    18. UH

      Mm.

    19. MS

      Yes, the content is important, but the model of how to learn something, because you remember, things are changing so fast, right? I mean, this I don't have to explain to-

    20. UH

      Yeah

    21. MS

      ... anybody in the audience.

    22. UH

      In the AI era.

    23. MS

      I mean, you can't even, you know, describe-

    24. UH

      Yeah

    25. MS

      ... the change, right? Suddenly people say you don't need to co-

    26. UH

      Yeah.

    27. MS

      Not know coding. Coding as, uh, coders are not needed, and suddenly I, we hear that.

    28. UH

      Yeah.

    29. MS

      Right? I mean, we don't know what we are going to hear, right, in ten years from now.

    30. UH

      Yeah.

  20. 48:44 – 49:06

    The Importance of Patents

    1. UH

      core to it, right? And, and I understand that your group has created a lot of patents. So, uh, can you explain to us, um, how the patenting system works? How does IIT Madras help? And, uh, how do you commercialize something later?

    2. MS

      ... So as a series of questions, let's first ask, what is a patent?

    3. UH

      Right.

    4. MS

      Many times actually there's a confusion, right?

    5. UH

      Yeah.

    6. MS

      So people say, "I've already published, right? Uh, so why do I have to patent it?"

  21. 49:06 – 52:09

    Understanding Intellectual Property

    1. MS

      So patent is essentially a-

    2. UH

      It's an intellectual property. Like the way you own something that's yours or somebody else's, it's a property, but it's intellectual property, which essentially means if it's a property, there's a right.

    3. MS

      So it gives you a legal right, right? The one by the law, for you to dictate, because you're owning it, as to how that property can be used by others. Because you can use it, which means you can derive value out of it. You can rent a property out, you can sell the property out, and because it's intellectual property, somebody can look at your property and create variants of that property, right? So this is what a patent is, right? It's, it's much more, uh, I don't want to say serious, it's, it's much more tangible than what it looks like.

    4. UH

      Okay.

    5. MS

      Let's say you have an invention. Uh, you have a new molecule, you have a new way of doing something, right? Uh, a new way of-

    6. UH

      Talk about, uh, in the Brain Center, you spoke about, uh, slicing a brain. Maybe I could get a patent of-

    7. MS

      You can look at that new instrument, any instrument.

    8. UH

      Okay.

    9. MS

      Be slicing or let's say, uh, a new way of, uh, heating this coffee mug, right? Uh, without connecting an electrical outlet to where I am. Once you have this idea, so this has come out from your-

    10. UH

      Work

    11. MS

      ... your brain, your-

    12. UH

      Focus

    13. MS

      ... your, your idea, body of, uh, uh, combination of, uh, ideas. So you can go and claim, register, right, and make an application to the patent office, mm, that this is something that I and we have come up with.

    14. UH

      Okay. I have two immediate questions from that. So how is this different from publishing a paper?

    15. MS

      Right. So-

    16. UH

      Yeah, yeah. Sorry, go on.

    17. MS

      In one way, so there's, uh, a qualifier-- not a qualifier, there's a clause. The patent office... I'll continue on that, then we'll come back to the publication. The patent office says, "Fine, we will examine this, and we will assign this property right to you." Usually, it's for the organization. Um, here, IIT Madras is the organization, but individual, it can be an individual. In exchange for making this knowledge publicly available-

    18. UH

      Mm

    19. MS

      ... right? But the rights are owned by you. So if people want to use that, they will have to get your permission, and the word permission, I'm using it loosely, right?

    20. UH

      Sure.

    21. MS

      The permission could be either you-

    22. UH

      License

    23. MS

      ... licensing it to them, as renting it, licensing, or completely giving it to them.

    24. UH

      Sure.

    25. MS

      Right, for various reasons.

  22. 52:09 – 52:54

    The Role of Publications vs. Patents

    1. MS

      Now, publication, right? The second part of it is true, which is you have a set of results, you, uh, have a, a new discovery, you make it public to the world, but the journal or the conference does not assign the intellectual property right to you. It is available to everybody, you can make it. Now, as a, you know, as an immediate idealist question, it's like: "Oh, isn't that not how it should be done? It should be made available."

    2. UH

      Definitely coming from a public institution like IIT.

    3. MS

      No, I mean, not only public institution. Let's say if I've come up with something, it should be made available. Now, there is nuances to this, right?

  23. 52:54 – 55:30

    Economic Viability of R&D

    1. MS

      Many times, actually, most of the times, you need significant amount of economic, which essentially means financial investment in R&D, because R&D is fundamentally high risk, any field, right? Uh, if you want an industry or if you want, since you mentioned public institution, to invest in this R&D, you have to make it over a period of time viable and sustainable. Viable, right? Sustainable means it has to generate returns, right, over time. It doesn't have to be tomorrow or day after tomorrow, so that this investments can be justified, right? Because at the end of the day, it is public taxpayers' money. If it's private money, definitely to the shareholders, to the board, you have to justify. So this property right, right, is important for you to attract [ding] investments and to justify this investment, to cr- take this risk. So you're taking a big risk-

    2. UH

      Sure

    3. MS

      ... right? So many of this don't work. I mean, the risks are, uh, percentages are, you know, as small as sometimes one percent. Let's just imagine.

    4. UH

      Yeah.

    5. MS

      Now, I invest hundred rupees-

    6. UH

      Yeah

    7. MS

      ... and one rupee of that can lead to something.

    8. UH

      Sure.

    9. MS

      Right? So this has to be, you know, made, uh, viable.

    10. UH

      Yeah.

    11. MS

      So that is... You know, there are various reasons for that, but this is one of the primary reasons why, uh, the IP law and the framework was actually instituted, you know, over the last, you know, several decades. And India today, um, follows this, and that has actually helped, and small companies. So now you, you could ask the other question, saying like: "Oh, large companies can, you know, afford to do this and, you know, can make it public." But what if this is a very small company or a single person, right, creating this intellectual property? How will this person grow this if this person or entity is not able to monetize this by licensing it out? So this is an essential part of innovation. So-... patents and intellectual property. There are different forms of intellectual property, okay? A patent is one form of intellectual property, uh, is an essential part of R&D and innovation, so that we have to be very clear. Uh, and IIT Madras, particularly over the last ten years, has taken really, you know, big strides in both creating frameworks and creating processes so that, you know, the students' inventions, faculty's inventions can be patented. And then there is a series of processes,

  24. 55:30 – 57:20

    Global Patenting and Commercialization

    1. MS

      right? Are, are you going to patent this only in, uh, India? Are you going to patent this in different countries? The laws are also different, because if you're going to... And today we are living in a global world, and, you know, many times the markets in global are more important for a company for various reasons, then you have to exercise this right in that, uh, country. So which means you'll have to file a patent in US or in Europe, wherever you are, um, you're planning to apply this property.

    2. UH

      Of course, there's a cost to it. There's a-

    3. MS

      There's a cost to it. Then you have to maintain this patent, right? Then, now this is still your property, right? You've not monetized it, right? So when an interested party comes in, and saying that, "You know, I would like to exploit, uh, commercially this particular, uh, invention," right? Then you'll have to license it to them, and there are different forms of licensing. We don't have to get into those details, right? Or let's say somebody is actually, you know, using this, knowingly or unknowingly, without compensating you. So then you will have to send them a communication saying, "Hey, I own this intellectual property," right? Uh, and then sometimes it goes into adjudication, or sometimes the company says, "Well, I didn't know about it." So then you actually license this and get your dues, right?

    4. UH

      So I mean, I've sort of-

    5. MS

      Also-

    6. UH

      ... uh, you have, uh, implied it, but just getting a patent doesn't mean that it'll s- give you rent immediately. It may, it may be something that, uh, uh, nobody wants.

    7. MS

      That's right.

    8. UH

      Um, or-

    9. MS

      In fact, the value of the patent-

    10. UH

      Yeah

    11. MS

      ... right, is sometime we actually measure the commercialization potential, right? So IIT Madras is driving the technology transfer. The technology transfer office, uh, which comes under ICSR, is continuously driving commercialization of IP, like in addition to industry projects, which we do.

    12. UH

      Hmm. Okay, that's helpful.

  25. 57:20 – 58:21

    Student Involvement in Research

    1. UH

      So a student entering IIT at an undergrad or a postgrad or a PhD level, um, how likely is it that they'll be in- involved in something that gets a paper out, or gets a patent out, or has a startup?

    2. MS

      Well, in fact, the engine, right? So there are faculty, right? I mean, labs are guided by faculty, led by faculty. The work is done by students, right? I mean, it's, uh, so if you take any of my papers, right, any of, uh, our group's patents, I don't think there is hardly any patent or any paper that doesn't have the students-

    3. UH

      Hmm

    4. MS

      ... on it. Right. So that's your short answer. Ninety-five percent of all papers and patents, unless faculty-

    5. UH

      This is a big thing, right? Like, when you were a student at undergrad or postgrad... I mean, of course, you did your postgrad in the US, so I guess you spoke about your work a little bit. Uh, it, maybe it's different in the US, but in India, was it like that?

    6. MS

      Not fifteen, twenty years ago.

    7. UH

      Right.

  26. 58:21 – 1:02:02

    The Rise of Startups and Entrepreneurship

    1. MS

      Right. So India's, the, the research engine, the enterprise, uh, creation, entrepreneurship, which you see, is about in academic institutions, which you see today, is about fifteen to twenty years old, largely. Right?

    2. UH

      So this is-

    3. MS

      Absolutely, uh, uh... That's why, you know, you see the growth continuously, because it's, it's, it is growing as we are speaking. It is very, very fresh. I would say the first wave of startups in India itself was, you know, mid-2000s, the modern startups which you see. Uh, so now we're looking at, you know, the, the next wave of startups, uh, which are more deep tech. So this is absolutely, you know, in the prime, I would say, in prime, and it's growing.

    4. UH

      Yeah, I think people should understand this difference. Um, a lot of the times, uh, students who are coming into IIT, both at undergrad and postgrad level, they have earlier thought about IIT as a step: "I'll get in, I'll do something, and I'll get out. And the, the thing that I'm seeking from IIT is a better placement or a better admit in the US or something." It's no longer like that. Uh, when you are here, you could be working on something that's equally important, that, that could lead to a paper or a pa- or a patent, or a startup, or, uh, something that... They're builders right here, right?

    5. MS

      In fact, I mean, you talked about replacements and, uh, you know, getting an admit in US. Those are actually one of the very few focuses today when I see students. They're trying to see: "What is the interesting thing that is happening here, which I can be part of?"

    6. UH

      Hmm.

    7. MS

      Right? You know, the placements, when it comes, I mean, the placement records of IITM, IIT Madras or many IITs is well known.

    8. UH

      Yes.

    9. MS

      I mean, it's, it's spectacular. And so that is really not the only thing anymore. In fact, that's probably one of the very few... One of the things I would say, but there are many things. Uh, so we didn't talk about the entrepreneurship angle too much, but you look at the number of companies, right, which have gone all the way from these, you know, experiments, innovations, and building. That's now today become almost a norm. Continuously, you realize that there is something hot that's cooking, right? You know, be it, you know, a plane or a drone or, uh, something that flies, something that moves. There is something continuously hot that is happening, right? And which we know, because, you know, these experiments are-- multiple experiments are happening, the probabilities of something big coming out is very, very high. So the wh- the-... the landscape itself as what an IIT is and what an academic institution is, has changed significantly even within the time I've been here. Uh, I've been here for fifteen, sixteen years. So I would say in, you know, if I had to go back twenty years, it's completely different, right? I mean, the academics, of course, we continue to focus, but the focus, the explicit focus on students experimenting, innovating, building, trying, failing, learning is now a norm, right? I mean, that actually, I would say a significant portion of their, uh, experience and their life experience at IIT Madras is now that.

    10. UH

      It's very interesting you picked that. So how-- uh, I mean, as a faculty member, you'd have also seen the change in... I, I guess that's what you're saying, that the student attitudes have changed

  27. 1:02:02 – 1:05:04

    Changing Student-Faculty Dynamics

    1. UH

      over time. Has the relationship between faculty and students also changed?

    2. MS

      Of course, no. I mean, we are all evolving. Each generation, right, interacts with, uh, you know, parents, relatives, you know, teachers differently, right? Uh, it has changed. Um, I would say, I mean, you, you could sort of argue, I mean, are they spending more physical time, uh, with faculty, like, in the corridors?

    3. UH

      Because the way I'm thinking about it, you're like co-collaborators, right?

    4. MS

      That's right. So, uh, yeah, so you actually answered the question. So, uh, which is, instead of, you know, faculty being the so- the only source of knowledge and the only so- resource, right, now it has changed, right? In fact, we learn from our students continuously, right? Uh, especially with many of these tools and technologies that continuously change. There's no way for, you know, me to learn by myself. I actually learn from how I pick up from what my students are doing. The innovation and the experiments are today done as collaborations with students. So in that way, the relationship has changed, right? So, you know, they are actually experimenting as much as you are guiding them in the experimentation, right? And the iteration and the feedback loop is much, much, uh, shorter in terms of time and more interactive than what it used to be, because the pace has sped up-

    5. UH

      Mm.

    6. MS

      -right? So that is one of the primary things. In terms of academic life, I would say, you know, technology has played a role. In that way, you could sort of argue that, you know, uh, you know, students spend lesser time with faculty on the corridor.

    7. UH

      Mm.

    8. MS

      But that is inevitable, right? I mean, uh, that is, you know, with all this-

    9. UH

      Also the number of students are growing, and, uh-

    10. MS

      That is true. So, you know, it is-

    11. UH

      I also heard one student say that because they are involved deeply in these build projects, sometimes their relationships with the academic work has changed because they're, they're implementing, uh, what they're learning. They're learning after implementing. So that kind of equation with their courses itself have changed.

    12. MS

      That's right. Because when we talked about, you know, fifty percent of free electives-

    13. UH

      Yeah.

    14. MS

      All right? That is... You know, one is a consequence of the other. And if they are, they're spending time in the building, in building things, right? They're going to be spending, you know... uh, there has to be some time that has to come off the corridor and off the, uh, after-class interactions with... So this is an evolving process. So we should not see whether, you know, the relationship, uh, has become better. That's not how-

    15. UH

      Yeah,

    16. MS

      -you can look at it.

    17. UH

      It's worse. It's just different from what it used to be.

    18. MS

      We are different from our parents.

    19. UH

      Hundred percent.

    20. MS

      Right.

    21. UH

      My dad was a faculty member at IIT Kharagpur, so-

    22. MS

      Right. And I don't think he would order food from outside, right?

    23. UH

      Yeah, I don't think so.

    24. MS

      Yeah.

    25. UH

      His relationship with his students, I mean, uh, Instagram was not there,

  28. 1:05:04 – 1:19:04

    Opportunities at Research Labs

    1. UH

      the internet was not there, so it's a very different era. I want to ask you, um, about, uh, uh, HTIC, Brain Center, all these research labs. Um, how, how do you-- how do people join these? Are they only for students? Uh, and, uh, how is the environment like? How do you attract talent? Um, interesting, because if you're doing cutting-edge work, you also need really good talent, right? Um, if you-

    2. MS

      Not as, not that you also need good talent; that is the primary.

    3. UH

      Yeah. [chuckles]

    4. MS

      You need good talent, right?

    5. UH

      Sure.

    6. MS

      R&D innovations are done by people.

    7. UH

      Right. So-

    8. MS

      And, uh, sorry.

    9. UH

      Can I ask you a question before that? In your own journey, uh, you were, uh, doing your PhD and your postgrad in the US, then you came back to India, so there's one decision there, which is coming back. Uh, and the second decision, I think, which is implied, is that you've done so much of work, it could have been done in the private sector, but you just chose to do it in a, a public sector institute, so... or in an academic environment. So can you run us through these decisions?

    10. MS

      Okay, so that's interesting. So you'll be very surprised.

    11. UH

      Mm.

    12. MS

      My fellow classmates, friends, tricked me into, you know, applying abroad, and I went, and then I ran into this project that was really super cool, uh, building this microchip for... So that's where it started. So we are wondering where that jump to medical, uh, you see, it was not conscious one, I mean. I ran into this project, which was building this electronic chip for a medical application, and once I saw that, after that, I realized the joy and the fun of building things, uh, especially across disciplines. Because remember, I mean, you are continuously learning, right? You're learning biology, you have to learn medicine, you have to- you're learning policy, right, and different subfields, right? Uh, that's how it actually started. Now, here I am, uh, as a, a faculty. So in many times, you realize this is not necessarily an isolated case. Students actually find their calling and find what-... calling it a deeper sense, sometimes they actually find that, "Oh, this I'm very good at. I did not know this." And that can happen only by immersing yourself, trying out, experimenting, and that now, as I said, is now a significant portion of life in IIT Madras as a student. Sure. And that's a conscious decision that we have taken, that we should actually give them that space and the time to do this. Fair enough. You're saying that if you lead by curiosity, if you lead by what stimulates you, then... And just let life show you those opportunities, and so- And you, you should experiment. Mm-hmm. But wh- what about the part where private institute versus academic institute? Oh, so, uh, so you, you picked on my thing of I should get a job, right? Uh- Right. [chuckles] So well, when I... You know, I'd, I'd always wanted to come back to India, as such, where my parents are, and it's my country. I'm, I'm coming back, right? There was no, no. But I probably came back a little early. Mm, um, twenty-eight, somewhat early. I, I don't think, you know, I made a very analytical flowchart, you know, type of decision. Professor Ashok Jhunjhunwala had invited me through somebody, I can't remember, uh, the network, to give a talk, two thousand and eight, uh, I believe. Um, and I looked at IIT Madras, it was building things when at that time, right? So our electrical department, as I said, uh, was building things, and somehow, again, uh, not very analytical decision, I said. And I still remember this conversation with, uh, Professor Jhunjhunwala and Professor Bhaskar Ramamurti in, uh, uh, Jhunjhunwala's office, where we're just talking like this. And, um, this thought was like, "Oh, medical devices, you know, nothing is happening in India. Uh, would you like to, you know, build something?" And I guess that triggered, and, uh, after that, it's sort of vague. It's not clear, you know, what led me to, uh, this decision, and that's it. I was here, uh, quickly, no time, for a few months. That's cool. I think Professor Ashok and Professor Bhaskar are also very inspiring in when you talk to them personally, or even when you listen to a lecture of theirs. So, I mean, they're absolute- Deep mentors ... top of their field also. And, uh, you know, it's absolutely a privilege to have been guided by them. So now let's come back to, um, people joining HTIC as maybe a research associate or, or- Yeah, that question I've not answered. Yeah. Sorry. Please com- uh, complete this question, then I'll, I'll- Yeah. So the, the, the core question is, they have other options, right? They have some... Maybe they have a job offer or, or, um, they have competing academic offers. Why should they choose to, uh, join HTIC? And in fact, I remember in one of our previous podcasts, uh, well, Reza was saying that sometimes they even have an admit from some university abroad or something, right? And they have to make this conscious choice that I want to join HTIC, or, uh, Brain Center, or some other thing in IIT. How should they look about that decision-making? And, uh, yeah, I mean, wh- what do you tell students? I actually never give prescriptive advice to students, right? I, I, I let them... You know, I, I am with them, sort of let them-- When they explore, you know, I, I, I guide them the options and choices, but I never give them prescriptive advice. But you sort of asked a question as to, you know, how do we attract them? Which is why very simple, you do very good work. You have to do high-quality work. I mean, that's, that's the minimum that you need to do. What is it that is available in these kind of places? And HTIC and Brain Center are, you know, two places. There are many such places at IIT Madras, right? Yeah. So let me give you an answer, uh, you know, uh, from all of us- IIT Madras point of view. Yeah. Not IIT Madras point of view, that's an academic institution. Yeah. But I'm saying these places, because we're talking about, you know, these places that are building stuff. Yeah. I can say this, right? In the current, you know, global scenario, right, I mean, we are in twenty twenty-five, uh, March twenty twenty-five- Yeah ... it is not easy for you to find a place where you have absolute freedom to experiment and build, which has a large research R&D component, which can lead to innovations and products that can become commercial-scale products, either through startups, which means you will take the entrepreneurship route, or the industry partnership route through, uh, with an existing industry, which could be a startup or a mid-size industry, or a large industry. And also, or I should say, to build your skills in such a way that you can actually go and join an industry directly, which we don't want to take this route. I would say there are not many places in India, and I dare say in the world, I mean, we have, you know, very good global view, and we have global collaborators who come to us, and we hear this from them. This many choices in such a high-quality place and doing, you know, cutting-edge work, that's a very rare combination that you will get. So- So if you look at my students, right? So- Yeah ... the simplest way to look at it is, what are my students doing? Hold on, hold on, before we go there. Sorry, go ahead. I'm doing a procon analysis, as you were saying. [chuckles] Yeah, you are writing a lot. Yeah. [chuckles] I thought you were interviewing me. [chuckles] Because you said so many things together, I was like... So cutting-edge work, freedom to experiment and build, large R&D emphasis, high impact, innovation and product. There's a possibility of commercialization, either by- When you say all this, it looks very formal, but yeah, go ahead. [chuckles] By industry and startup. Uh, plus, there is a skill building, personal skill building, right? And, and you're saying that this combination is very rare in India and maybe across the world. I would say so. Now that you say that, it's even more- Obvious ... I can say this almost formally, I guess.... which is true, because I'm looking at, you know, I, I'll go back and complete, uh, what I said. Um, you know, I was saying it impromptu, but, you know, it is, uh, it is based on data, right? You know, my, uh, group has graduated close to now fifteen, uh, research scholars, right? Master's and PhD together. What are they doing? Let's just ask. We have faculty in IITs, NITs, and leading private institutions. I have researchers both in health tech, med tech area, who are really growing in the industry, right, as engineering leaders, R&D leaders. And what is interesting is I'm seeing these skills they pick up while they're building this, being applied to many industries, industries which I would have never thought of, right? And they're becoming R&D leaders in those industries. And I have people who say, "I can never work for anybody," and you know those types, even when you start with them and interview them, right? And they're all doing-- uh, taking their entrepreneurial journey. Some of them have succeeded quite well, some of them are iterating, right? So what does that tell me? Like, you know, this, uh, you know, about what you have made it formal is actually essentially what is happening. And this, I think, is happening across, uh, the institute, across these building labs. That's really what is happening. And remember, India is still hungry for talent. Yeah. Indian industry and startups, not only institutions, are hungry for really, you know, quality people with modern skills and strong foundations, and have a sense of, you know, entrepreneurship. And when I say entrepreneurship, essentially, uh, you know, creating products and creating companies, and this is a highly sought after skill. And if you actually make this skill, and all this is happening, you know, with strong global connection. Right. Right? So my students continuously are presenting this in global conferences, and if it is PhD, but they have more time, they spend time in, uh, labs globally. And please understand, the global scenario is also shifting. Right. Right? True. I don't want to get into, you know, what is happening in US or Europe, but they are facing some significant challenges. Right. You know, it's not easy, and I will say this explicitly, right? It is not easy for you to get, get a place where, you know, you work with, you know, tens of people in a free manner- Right ... without walking on eggshells, right? You know, which is now starting to happen i-i-in the world outside. Sure, you, you-- maybe, um, I should put it very directly, saying that maybe students are thinking that they'll go abroad to some research university, but once they go there, they may find out that funding is an issue, or the thing that they wanted to work on, they have to pivot out of it, or there's not as much freedom as they thought there would be. So is that what you're referring to? Yes, in a very sort of, uh, short, short answer. Yeah. Because things have changed, uh, in US and Europe. Right. Large groups, right, freely working with each other is actually becoming a rarity. I mean, since you sort of hold my tongue- Yeah ... uh, quite a bit. Uh, and in fact, this has happened to a couple of my students- Okay ... who've gone abroad, and they said, "Hey, I'm doing my work." That's it. That's the kind of, you know, summary which I get. Right. "But I don't have, uh, you know, enough time or flexibility to do joint work with other people." Understood. Right? And there are various reasons for that. So that is something that, you know, very, very important for you to learn certain skills. We talked about- Fair ... interdisciplinary, and even at a personal level, right? I mean, how do you work with other people? How do you resolve conflicts? Which is actually everything. You know, how do you handle a crisis- Yeah ... when you know something doesn't work- Yeah ... because the other person was supposed to deliver. And also, you're saying it's interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary, it, it has lots of stakeholders. There, there's a lot of alignment issues. Sometimes the-- every, uh, person may have a slightly different- And this is internal to the group. Uh, uh, sorry to interrupt, and I forgot to mention, how do you work with external? Yeah. How do you work with people who are not in your institution? Fair enough. Okay, coming back to the pro/con analysis, we listed a bunch of pros. You gave the proof of the pudding is in how well your, uh, researchers who have graduated are doing. What are the cons? In terms of? Sorry. Like, if I do a pro/con analysis of- Of- ... why should people join HTIC slash Brain Center or labs like this across IIT Madras? Uh, we, we listed the pros. What could be some of the cons? No, there is this... You know, some people say, I mean, some of my students said, "I want to go outside India." Sure. It's not really a con. I mean, the person wants to go outside the country, do his, uh, higher studies for a few years outside. And, you know, if you have that, you have that clearly, like the way I actually didn't want to even study abroad, but I ended up going. The person has to do it. Yeah. And, uh, that actually could be a, a, you know, an important, uh, decision for them, that, you know, which they have made up their mind that, you know, they want to be abroad. Other than that, you know, not really. I cannot see a structural...

  29. 1:19:04 – 1:22:52

    Global Exposure and Future Prospects

    1. MS

      Okay, so if I were to add one thing, the global exposure which we provide by them going out and, um, people from abroad coming here and working in the lab, the second part of it is still thin. Right? So if you take my lab-... we have exchange students, but that number is small.

    2. UH

      Right. Fair enough. If you're going to the US in a g- group, uh, there are-

    3. MS

      Inherently international.

    4. UH

      Yeah, it's inherently international. So maybe that will take maybe another decade to solve that for us, but, uh, we deal with it.

    5. MS

      It will, it will take another decade because as India grows, so there are also economic factors-

    6. UH

      Yeah

    7. MS

      ... that come into the picture.

    8. UH

      Yeah.

    9. MS

      So when India grows-- In fact, you know, this is actually not well, probably not thought of. If you take our research budget, I don't want to get into, you know, deeper numbers, and it'll actually be a different conversation. If you take the, uh, equivalent purchasing power parity, we are already there. You know, uh, IIT Madras' research budget is now, you know, hundred, hundred and odd million dollars. So if you actually convert that into, uh, salaries are a component, which means that's a big expansion that will happen if you actually have to convert it into purchasing power, how much? That is starting to become equal if you take the-- if you apply the scaling factor to many schools in US and Europe. Now, that will continue to grow.

    10. UH

      You're saying on a purchasing parity, uh, level, uh, the pays given to researchers are-

    11. MS

      Still low, right? I mean, if you take... No, no, what I mean by purchasing power parity is, if I were to compare a hundred million dollar budget-

    12. UH

      Right.

    13. MS

      What is a hundred million dollar budget in India, an equivalent of the R&D budget in US or Europe, right?

    14. UH

      Ah, okay, okay.

    15. MS

      Right. So because that's when you can compare, no?

    16. UH

      Yeah.

    17. MS

      Yeah. And that will continue to-- that gap will continue to shrink.

    18. UH

      Okay, understood.

    19. MS

      Right. And in about ten, fifteen years, we will be equal, because you have to apply that scaling factor, to many of the good schools in US and Europe. And remember, I mean, this is... We're taking out the institution. We have to understand IITs are science and technology institutions. So if you take, let's say, a particular area or particular department or particular field, if you start comparing, we are already seeing that comparison, right? In terms-- And the easiest way to measure is you measure publications, you measure patents, you measure industry engagement. That is starting to become very comparable, and this will continue to grow.

    20. UH

      Yeah.

    21. MS

      And when it grows, then, uh, the global exposure that you get here, I guess that, that's where we started. Global exposure that you get here at IIT Madras, seeing IIT Madras, that will continue to increase.

    22. UH

      On-

    23. MS

      That is today thin.

    24. UH

      That's, that's the one con that you are saying?

    25. MS

      Yes.

    26. UH

      Nice. I mean, it's a great place to stop. Thank you so much, Professor, for joining us, and, uh, we'll keep track of all the work that's coming out of HTIC and Brain Center, and all the new centers that come up under your ages.

    27. MS

      Thank you. I really enjoyed this.

    28. UH

      Thank you for joining us. Before we leave, please like, share, subscribe, comment, save on the platform you like. Thank you. [upbeat music]

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