Growing Organs in a Petri Dish and Starting Labs in IIT Madras | Dr Anubama Rajan

1. 0:00 – 0:43

   Intro

   1. ARDr. Anubama Rajan0:00

      from Baylor College of Medicine. I was spearheading this research, and as a leader, to create protocols for studying coronavirus, technology called organoids, that can be grown in a dish to mimic physiology of organs. This enables scientists to do is better understand the human organ outside the human body without a need of doing clinical trial. From the lab to the market, we spend billions of dollars. More than 90% of the drug fails at clinical trial, and you're not allowed to study these pathogens in a normal lab. You need what's called as a biosafety level three. Including all this darkness, the light, the path that they showed me was so striking that I wanted to do it.

   2. SPSpeaker0:42

      [upbeat music]

2. 0:43 – 1:30

   Welcome to the Best Place to Build

   1. SPSpeaker0:43

      Hi, this is Amrit. We are at IIT Madras, my alma mater, and India's top university for people who like to build. We are here to meet some builders, ask them: What are you building? What does it take to build? And what makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to the Best Place to Build podcast. Today, we are sitting with Professor Anubama Rajan. She's a faculty in the Department of Medical Science and Technology. It's a new department at IIT Madras. She's also the principal investigator, the PI, for two of the labs

3. 1:30 – 4:20

   Introducing Dr. Anubama Rajan

   1. SPSpeaker1:30

      in the department. I'm very eager to learn about them, uh, because this is not my field. I have no idea. Um, Professor, welcome to the podcast.

   2. ARDr. Anubama Rajan1:38

      It's a pleasure to be here.

   3. SPSpeaker1:40

      Professor, let's start with this thing that I learned from your website. You are the PI for Organ-on-Chip Lab, uh, which is experimenting with mini organs on a dish. Did I get that correct?

   4. ARDr. Anubama Rajan1:52

      You got it right.

   5. SPSpeaker1:53

      Okay, so can you tell us what this lab does and, uh, maybe a little bit about the field?

   6. ARDr. Anubama Rajan1:58

      Sure. So OrgAMED is organoid assisted medicine. So I work in a specific field called, uh, organoid biology. In simple terms, these are, uh, miniature stem cell models that mimic an organ, so that's where you get the idea of organs in a dish. So in about 2010, there was a group from Netherlands, and Hans Clevers was the PI of the group, and, uh, he invented this technology called organoids, which are nothing but three-dimensional bunch of stem cells that can be grown in a dish to mimic physiology of organs. So to go into details about what is the physiology, if you take a gut, for example, we know gut is involved in absorbing nutrients. They make mucus to trap microorganisms. They excrete certain things. But, uh, traditionally, when we think in biology, there are something called cell culture model system and animal model. So the cell culture model system, for a very long time, people have used cancer cell lines to, uh, mimic a specific organ. But these organoids are different because they are not cancer cell. They are derived from stem cells of a specific organ, and these stem cells are like building blocks. So you can use this to go on to reproduce the similar system outside the human body. So the mini gut in a dish do make mucus. They actually can, uh, poop out, like diarrhea. They can release fluid and swell in real time. They can absorb nutrients. So what this enables scientists to do is better understand the human organ outside the human body without a need of doing clinical trials, et cetera. And, um, why was that important? Because for a long time, people have used animal models, and essentially, you can't study a human disease in a monkey or a rat because the symptoms are very different. So they needed a more appropriate model system to better understand human disease, so that's the fundamental principle behind OrgAMED.

   7. SPSpeaker4:00

      Okay, so, um, let me see if I understood this right. This... Uh, an organoid is a mini organ, like a mini gut-

   8. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:08

      Yes

   9. SPSpeaker4:09

      ... uh, which can mimic the functions of a gut-

   10. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:10

       Yes

   11. SPSpeaker4:10

       ... but sits in a Petri dish.

   12. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:12

       Yes.

   13. SPSpeaker4:12

       How, how big is it? Sorry, I need to ask.

   14. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:14

       Sure. Uh, I mean, actually, they are very miniature, mi- in micron scale.

   15. SPSpeaker4:18

       Okay.

   16. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:19

       But, uh, what is

4. 4:20 – 9:55

   What are organoids?

   1. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:20

      so beautiful about them is they exhibit the same function that the gut on a larger level does.

   2. SPSpeaker4:25

      Okay.

   3. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:25

      For example, gut is one example. I think one thing that we can much more easily relate is the respiratory tract. We make mucus. We have cilia on all of that. So these, uh, airway organoids in the dish also produces mucus. When you add a virus to it, it will make excrete mucus, like how our nose does when we have common cold.

   4. SPSpeaker4:46

      Okay.

   5. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:46

      So they will have a beating cilia to trap dust particles, like how you... how our n- nasal epithelium is lined with these things.

   6. SPSpeaker4:54

      Okay.

   7. ARDr. Anubama Rajan4:54

      So they are micron-level system, but they exhibit the same function as a human organ at macro level.

   8. SPSpeaker5:01

      Okay. Uh, if I may ask, how are these organoids built? Like, how... I mean, I-- Sorry, I, I have this vision in my mind from this movie called, uh, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. I don't know if you've seen it.

   9. ARDr. Anubama Rajan5:13

      Mm, yes.

   10. SPSpeaker5:13

       It's these guys develop a machine to sort of shrink things. Is it like that?

   11. ARDr. Anubama Rajan5:18

       So okay, it goes back to, uh, embryogenesis, I would say. When we all start, we start as a single cell, right? And then there are several, uh, what we call as growth factors or development factors, which basically are signaling cues.

   12. SPSpeaker5:34

       Okay.

   13. ARDr. Anubama Rajan5:34

       So from a single cell, we become a bunch of cells, and from a bunch of cells, we go on to become specific organs, and then we become a, a whole being. So as we go along this direction of, uh, embryology or developmental biology, the signaling patterns vary. So the signals that we receive for our eyes are different from brain, from our gut, hands, and so on. So what the developmental biologists, who are like the critical, uh, mass generators in this field did, was they identified what those signals are.... okay, and because they identified this, they said, "Okay, now if I know how an lung look like and what are the signals needed, and I take a building block of the lung and artificially provide that with the same signal, can I develop a miniature lung outside the body?" So that's what led to development of organoids. The very first organoid that came into existence was the gut organoids. So Hans Clevers' lab identified certain growth factors that are essential to maintain what's called as the gut epithelium.

   14. SPSpeaker6:39

       Okay.

   15. ARDr. Anubama Rajan6:39

       So-

   16. SPSpeaker6:40

       So if, if I can, uh, if I can understand it, then, uh, the, the miniature organ is only a few microns or maybe, uh, I don't know, like, maybe 1,000 cells?

   17. ARDr. Anubama Rajan6:51

       Uh, there are about a million.

   18. SPSpeaker6:53

       Million cells.

   19. ARDr. Anubama Rajan6:54

       Yes.

   20. SPSpeaker6:54

       Um, it may not look like the gut-

   21. ARDr. Anubama Rajan6:57

       Yes

   22. SPSpeaker6:57

       ... but it mimics it.

   23. ARDr. Anubama Rajan6:59

       Yes.

   24. SPSpeaker6:59

       So miniature-

   25. ARDr. Anubama Rajan7:00

       Yeah

   26. SPSpeaker7:00

       ... lung. Are, are organoids available for every organ?

   27. ARDr. Anubama Rajan7:04

       Yeah, it is, uh... I mean, right now, yeah, it's available for majority of the organs, and even if it is not, they are building it as we speak.

   28. SPSpeaker7:11

       Okay.

   29. ARDr. Anubama Rajan7:12

       So the field is very rapidly evolving. It was, uh, bloomed from 2010 to now.

   30. SPSpeaker7:18

       Okay.
5. 9:55 – 12:55

   Protocols for drug discovery using organoids

   1. ARDr. Anubama Rajan9:55

      model to understand the disease, design drugs to target against the disease, and then use the same platform to deliver for the disease, to see whether in an artificial setup, in the organoid, if you generate the disease, is the drug able to mitigate the symptoms, or is it able to treat the disease? So this is one of the way by which, uh, my lab is focused on.

   2. SPSpeaker10:19

      So can I ask that again? So, um, i- is your lab developing org- organoids, or is it using organoids for-

   3. ARDr. Anubama Rajan10:26

      We do both.

   4. SPSpeaker10:27

      Okay.

   5. ARDr. Anubama Rajan10:27

      We do both. For example, I'm, uh... my, um, PhD background is in developing organoids to model human diseases, so I have expertise. Uh, if I have a clinical sample from a patient or a healthy, uh, individual who wants to donate a piece of their biopsy for some other screening purpose to use, I can make organoids from the patient, and I can also use the same organoids, uh, which is a biobank, but also model diseases that are relevant to population. To give more precise example, I work on, uh, lung respiratory diseases, so right now I'm interested in understanding how viral infections, uh, in... that's happening worsens asthma, or it's a trigger for wheezing and asthma and, uh, pulmonary, chronic pulmonary diseases like COPD in Indian population. So I take these stem cells from the patients and sometimes from healthy individual, I make these organoids, and then I induce asthma or COPD in them, and then look at how the disease is progressing, and then add a viral component and see how virus is worsening it or triggering for onset of asthma.

   6. SPSpeaker11:38

      Okay. I'm, I'm just thinking, as you were saying that, is that, uh, breathing disorders are a very growing issue in India-

   7. ARDr. Anubama Rajan11:46

      Yes

   8. SPSpeaker11:47

      ... especially because we have a seasonal pollution problem.

   9. ARDr. Anubama Rajan11:49

      Yes.

   10. SPSpeaker11:50

       Very interesting. I, I myself have a breathing disorder sometimes, not always, not as bad as asthma, so.

   11. ARDr. Anubama Rajan11:56

       I'm included in that, too. [chuckles]

   12. SPSpeaker11:57

       Okay, nice.

   13. ARDr. Anubama Rajan11:59

       I mean, what's funny is from the time, uh, I had wheezing as a child, and now, and my child is going through the same cycle, we are essentially using the same drugs as was.

   14. SPSpeaker12:12

       Okay.

   15. ARDr. Anubama Rajan12:12

       ... and it is sad as a researcher to see that we have not advanced, because we know there are so many things that we can change. It's just that we have not found it, or it's not yet approved. So-

   16. SPSpeaker12:23

       Yeah, I think when you start using, it's only Astelin.

   17. ARDr. Anubama Rajan12:26

       Exactly.

   18. SPSpeaker12:27

       Right.

   19. ARDr. Anubama Rajan12:27

       It's usually the inhaler that gives, that gives you bronchodilation and stuff. Yeah.

   20. SPSpeaker12:31

       Interesting. Thank you so much for giving me that context. I'm very curious to understand how you got into this field. Um, what, what was your school... What was your favorite subject in school? What is your subject in, uh, in graduate school, and how did you come here?

   21. ARDr. Anubama Rajan12:46

       Sure. Um, the, I'm gonna say it's biology, and I just wanna add a little bit of story to it. Uh, and my interest actually, uh, started, or

6. 12:55 – 17:00

   Dr Anubama’s journey through microbiology

   1. ARDr. Anubama Rajan12:55

      it, it started to mushroom when I was in my high school. Up until my 10th grade, it was physics, but my 11th grade biology teacher changed everything for me. So I was in a new school, and she came in, and she was talking about microbes, how, uh, bacteria infects a person and stuff, and I was, like, so engrossed in the class that I didn't, I did not take notes. And she threw a chalk at me, "New student, get up." And I was, I was scared, and she was like: "Why are you not taking notes? Am I telling you a story?" It, it actually took me a few minutes to realize that it's a class that's going on, and I have to take notes, but whatever she said, it's, it is, it was engraved in my brain. So she gave a picture of biology that made me, uh, get interested in the concept of microbiology forever. So during my grad school, I, of course, like, um, I did not pursue medicine, but I went to the, the field of biotechnology. Was always fascinated by microbes, how, uh, diseases work, how human body exists, mainly because something that you don't see through your naked eye, but cre- can create a havoc and catastrophe and kill a person. How is it that it has the magnitude to do it? I was always interested in solving this puzzle. So for my graduate school, I went to Georgia State University, and I was actually working on diabetes, because that's a project that had funding and started off. And, uh, to be honest, uh, biology interested me, and I studied it, but it was not something that sparked me. And it was something about handling animal models and rodents and rats in the lab, I, I was not quite comfortable about. So when I was applying for, uh, my PhD program, I was specifically looking at, uh, programs that offered exciting courses on microbiology or virology, and also alternate models for animal models. So that's when I stumbled upon Baylor College of Medicine, and there was this particular lab, which was where I graduated from e- eventually, uh, by Anthony Maraso. Uh, Dr. Anthony Maraso at that time told me the exact same thing: "Uh, great to have you on board. We have something called as mini organs that we grow on dish. If you choose to come to Baylor, and if you choose my lab, this is the project that you will do." And, uh, that changed something in me. The fact... I was as fascinated, like, how is it that you have a miniature intestine in a Petri dish, right? Like, how are you able to grow that? How, how, how does it do? What is the biology behind it? What can we advance it to? So these were the questions I was really interested in answering. So I went to Baylor College of Medicine for my PhD, and I worked in, with Anthony Maraso's lab. So we worked on gut organoids to understand, uh, bacterial diarrheal diseases. In fact, uh, we worked on a specific bacteria that's one of the most common cause of diarrhea in Indian population.

   2. SPSpeaker15:50

      Okay.

   3. ARDr. Anubama Rajan15:50

      So I always had that Indian, uh, content connection in my research. And, uh, for my postdoc, I wanted to get into something newer than gut organoids, because, um, the gut organoids had already migrated to India back then.

   4. SPSpeaker16:07

      Okay.

   5. ARDr. Anubama Rajan16:07

      In 2014, it was new, but by the time I graduated, 2018, it was, uh, already people were starting to use and stuff. So I knew if I want to go back to Indian academia, I have to bring something new to the table that did not exist in India. And, uh, when I researched about it, I realized airway organoids or lung organoids would be a pressing field for Indian context, because we have major burden of tuberculosis, multiple respiratory diseases, and nobody was working at that time. So I switched to a, a similar field, but a different question, which involved using lung organoids. So my postdoc is from, uh, uh, the group of, uh, Dr. Piedra lab, or, uh, Tony Piedra. He worked in respiratory viruses, and, uh, he also test vaccines for CDC,

7. 17:00 – 19:50

   What was COVID research like?

   1. ARDr. Anubama Rajan17:00

      uh, at Baylor. So I started my postdoc investigating how airway organoids can be used to look at viral infections, so...

   2. SPSpeaker17:08

      Very interesting. So when the pandemic happened, it must have been a very, um... I mean, it feels weird to say it, but it must have been an interesting period-

   3. ARDr. Anubama Rajan17:17

      It was

   4. SPSpeaker17:17

      ... because so many different things happened.

   5. ARDr. Anubama Rajan17:18

      Yes. So I started my postdoc in, uh, 2019, and, uh, that's, uh, in December 2019 was when we got into this pandemic, actually.

   6. SPSpeaker17:30

      Yeah.

   7. ARDr. Anubama Rajan17:30

      So in fact, at the journal club at Baylor at that time, uh, we were discussing, "Hey, there is this crazy virus that's going on in Wuhan. What do you think it's gonna happen?" We had this, and within, like, a week into that discussion, we know we were already seeing a pandemic. So but I think the worldwide pandemic was announced sometime in January, but we were much aware of it. And as a result, when the whole world took a pause, um, and the COVID was, like, stopping everybody's work, because we were in a respiratory disease laboratory and in a respiratory infection disease laboratory, we were working crazily. So I was also spearheading, uh, what's called as, uh, biosafety level three research, because, uh, for a virus for which there is no vaccine or medication available, you cannot do research in a normal setting.... you need extra precaution, and that's called-- We have several biosafety levels for microbiology research. For example, if I'm pretty sure if I, uh, take my hand from here, I will be, uh, culturing several bacteria from this table, but this, we call it a normal part of our life. And there are certain infections that are transmitted, but you will recover from it. You are not going to die from that. And COVID was a pathogen at that time. Coronavirus have been around, like, for a longer time, but this particular strain was something that was creating, um, or giving high mortality rate, and you're not allowed to study these pathogens in a normal lab. You need what's called as a Biosafety Level 3, where there is a lot of negative pressure. You need to get extra surveillance permission from, uh, CDC, from NIH, to even look at those viruses or study the viruses. So Baylor, bec- uh, because I was involved in this, and I was developing a model to study it, uh, from Baylor College of Medicine, I was spearheading this research and as a leader to create protocols for studying coronavirus in this model system under BSL-3 setting. So it was a very interesting and an intense journey. [chuckles]

   8. SPSpeaker19:39

      A- as you are saying it, I'm just thinking that the life of an academic is quite complicated because you have to think of which fields are getting funding, which fields are more interesting, which fields are relevant to the society-

   9. ARDr. Anubama Rajan19:48

      Yes.

   10. SPSpeaker19:48

       ... and you have to sort of

8. 19:50 – 23:30

   How do you plan your career in microbiology research?

   1. SPSpeaker19:50

      plan your career over many years.

   2. ARDr. Anubama Rajan19:52

      You do have to plan your career. So in fact, uh, there were, uh... It-- They say it takes a village to raise a child, and I would say to shape a good academician, it takes plenty of mentors. It can't-- It is just not your advisors, and I was blessed with many mentors throughout my career, and I still continue to seek mentorship. So I don't know if you know this person, uh, Dr Cherry Kang. She was at, uh, CMC Vellore before, and, uh, she's now the director of, uh, Bill Gates Foundation. So I, once, during my India visit, I took time, and I went and spoke to her: "See, I'm about to graduate. I want to come back to India. What should I do? Do you think it, uh... Do I have everything, what it takes to be a good academician?" And she was the person who said, "Anu, it's not about how much you publish, where you publish. It's always about what are you going to bring to the table. So is this something that's going to be useful to the community? Are you going to ask the right questions that's gonna be useful for the Indian community? So I want you to think about your research in that direction."

   3. SPSpeaker20:58

      Okay.

   4. ARDr. Anubama Rajan20:59

      So th- that, that enabled me... So I started thinking, right? Like, uh, "I want to go back, but what-- when I go back, what am I going to give back?" So that question was always there.

   5. SPSpeaker21:11

      Can I ask you a detail on that? You're s- you're saying, "I wanted to go back," as if it's a given, but in your field, where especially when the field is booming in the US and, uh, there's so much more funding available, why would you want to come back?

   6. ARDr. Anubama Rajan21:23

      The fear did exist. Now I can confidently say I'm, I'm not succumbing to that fear anymore. Uh, what changed or, uh, what gave me a little bit of, um, support or, um, strength to address the fear was we had a workshop from India Alliance, and, uh, it was organised by a philanthropist, uh, Mehta Foundation at Houston. See, they got people from India Alliance, Wellcome DBT, cell, a funding agency in India, who are actually promoting very high-quality research in the area of life science. So we had Shaheer Jameel from it, and he came, and he spoke about how the funding s- ecosystem in India is actually changing. If you want to go back, there are these high competitive grants which pay similar to NIH level. And he opened my eyes when told, "Essentially, if you want to do that, there are these pathways." And I hold, uh, India Alliance fellowship. It's one of the prestigious fellowship to have, and I'm very happy and, uh, in fact, like, little bit proud to say I have an early career fellowship from that, because what I started making as a plan, when it became real in life, it gave me so much joy.

   7. SPSpeaker22:40

      Mm.

   8. ARDr. Anubama Rajan22:41

      So yes, there are a lot of... Still we are, the funding issues still do exist, but I think the government is, government and several private organisations are seeing it. So if you can put your heart and soul and time to it, you can do good research in India. So the question is always like, do you-- I mean, of course, I would have done well in US, too, and, uh, um, I would have probably taken the same path.

   9. SPSpeaker23:07

      Mm-hmm.

   10. ARDr. Anubama Rajan23:07

       But coming back to India is always a good feeling because both myself and my husband, we wanted to be close to our parents. So there is this home calling from a personal aspect, and when the professional aspect works, I think there is no other better place than being home.

   11. SPSpeaker23:24

       Understood. [chuckles] Uh, Professor, uh, as you're saying this, I'm thinking that, uh,

9. 23:30 – 29:15

   Why did IITM decide to start a medical science department?

   1. SPSpeaker23:30

      you're saying that it was not too risky to come back to India from a funding perspective overall, but you chose to come back to IIT Madras for a new department, which, before the call started, you said that at the time you joined, didn't have a name board also.

   2. ARDr. Anubama Rajan23:41

      Yes.

   3. SPSpeaker23:42

      Uh, so that's a different kind of risk, right? You're joining a new department. First of all, I, I, I need to ask you about this also. Department of Medical Science in an engineering university, in an engineering campus, it sounds a little strange to me. Uh, is that so? And, uh, how, how did you, um... How did you convince yourself that this would be a good idea? [chuckles]

   4. ARDr. Anubama Rajan24:06

      I was struggling because, say, it is new, um, if you think about it this way. It was not new-... when you take a step back outside India and look at how European countries, Western countries have looked at, like, ah, there are some Cambridge campus, ah, Harvard, MIT, Stanford, all of them have had engineering schools and medical school. Somehow in India, we have had this disconnect from the beginning. It's just that it is just about time that we realized it, and they form this Medical Sciences and Technology department. So it took multiple visionaries. Our director, ah, in our department, we have a very senior professor, Institute Professor Krishna Kumar, ah, who were also led by several international advisors from where, ah, Nobel laureates, uh, who were from, uh, German universities, uh, the head of the department, Bobby George, they all felt this is addressing the time of need. So they conceptualized what has been already going on. It's not like engineers are not working with doctors, and doctors don't come to engineers for some help, but this department gave a place for them to be together. So that's what this department... It's not a new concept, it per se, for me at least, as a personally. They just realized that, yes, we need to earmark a space for this, and in this place, we are going to actively bring these individuals together to help the community.

   5. SPSpeaker25:35

      Right.

   6. ARDr. Anubama Rajan25:35

      So-

   7. SPSpeaker25:36

      So it's, it's not new across the world?

   8. ARDr. Anubama Rajan25:37

      It's not new across the world, and even for Indians. That's what I'm saying. It's not like the engineers and clinicians were-

   9. SPSpeaker25:43

      Oh-

   10. ARDr. Anubama Rajan25:43

       ... not working together.

   11. SPSpeaker25:44

       They were working together.

   12. ARDr. Anubama Rajan25:45

       They were, they were work- they were doing their thing silently. But this gives, to me, or at least in my opinion, this is giving you an active space for the students, for the medical community, for the engineering community to come together and do this.

   13. SPSpeaker25:58

       Fair enough. I'm thinking a research lab, say, at, uh, Siemens or Dr. Reddy's, would have engineers and-

   14. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:04

       Exactly

   15. SPSpeaker26:04

       ... medical professionals.

   16. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:05

       Exactly.

   17. SPSpeaker26:05

       So it, it's not like engineers go here-

   18. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:08

       Yes

   19. SPSpeaker26:08

       ... medical folk go.

   20. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:09

       Yes.

   21. SPSpeaker26:09

       So this is more of an acknowledgement of, uh, existing fact?

   22. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:12

       Yeah.

   23. SPSpeaker26:13

       Just that-

   24. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:13

       But what, what, uh, really drove was the passion of all the people who built this department. So and I do have a lot to say for Professor Krishna Kumar, because he was... He played a major role in setting up every brick of this department, I would say. And it takes a very strong leadership to see that, ah, this is needed, and the support that we have received from the, uh, institute director and my head of the department to actively set and grow in this area is just amazing.

   25. SPSpeaker26:44

       Professor Krishna Kumar, of course, we call him RKK. He, he was a teacher of mine. I think he took a course from me. Uh, at the time, he was in Mechanical Engineering Department, and he started the Engineering Design department, so this is his second, [chuckles] uh-

   26. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:56

       Yeah

   27. SPSpeaker26:56

       ... department that he's founded.

   28. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:57

       I think he's-

   29. SPSpeaker26:58

       Right

   30. ARDr. Anubama Rajan26:58

       ... he is somebody who's really good at establishing something new and let it-
10. 29:15 – 31:00

    What are the programs offered by the medical sciences department, IIT Madras?

    1. SPSpeaker29:15

       And Professor Bobby George, you mentioned, he's the head of department.

    2. ARDr. Anubama Rajan29:17

       Right.

    3. SPSpeaker29:17

       And, uh, it offers, uh, BS, MS, PhD. Can you give us a broad idea of these programs?

    4. ARDr. Anubama Rajan29:24

       Sure. So, uh, the Department of Medical Sciences and Technology offers a BS program, uh, which is called BS in Medical Sciences and Engineering. The students, uh, enter this program through IAT, which is the ICER Aptitude Test, and we do have a very stringent requirement, or, uh, we choose our students carefully. We ch- take the top-tier students. And, uh, what this program teaches them is, like, they get to mathematics. They have to have their mathematics from 12th, but they are okay to have either computer science or biology. So mathematics is an essential component because that's where the engineering comes into picture. And, uh, what we want our BS students to be is, like, they should know about biology, they should know about, um, medicine. They should also learn about medic- uh, about engineering. The idea being, they should have the ability to speak all the languages. That's when truly interdisciplinary work comes. So some of the foundational courses have anatomy, physiology, so they s- uh, learn human anatomy and physiology-... like a medical student. They also have a lot of mathematical and engineering-oriented courses so that they can learn to, um, develop and, um, design algorithms for human diseases. And they also have a lot of foundational-level biology courses to know about the current, uh, trends in technology that goes on. And, uh, we have the MS and PhD program for, uh, research, and what's one thing very unique about our department is the MD-PhD program.

    5. SPSpeaker30:56

       Professor, before that, because you mentioned so many different kind of courses,

11. 31:00 – 36:00

    What unique exposure & opportunities are available to the Department of Medical Sciences, IITM?

    1. SPSpeaker31:00

       it would require a very wide range of faculty, right? Like, how is the faculty organized?

    2. ARDr. Anubama Rajan31:05

       So, um, in the larger context, our, our department have certain requirements or, or buckets for faculty. So we have three disciplinary, uh, three different disciplines, I would say. We have cellular physiologists. We also have clinicians. Cellular physiologists are people like me, who are working on fundamental biology and asking clinically-oriented question. We have physicians who help us teach the anatomy, physiology, and we also have the engineering bucket of faculty, who teaches them essentially mathematics. So we have a fla- we have different flavors in the department. For example, Bobby George is a biosensor person. You were, you were... Yourself mentioned about Professor RKK from mechanical background. So he has done a lot of mathematical modeling to understand human diseases, predict, uh, human diseases, the creation of digital twins. And, uh, there are also other- He teaches a lot of courses. I don't know how he does that. So he also thinks about, uh, development of, uh, medical devices, how, uh, surgical instruments work, how- why is it that we are not developing these on our own?

    3. SPSpeaker32:14

       Yeah.

    4. ARDr. Anubama Rajan32:14

       How to develop our own insulin pumps, so these kind of things. And then we have Professor Srikanth Vedantam, who's again, a person who's, uh, much more on the, I would say, fractals, phase field element, finite element analysis, and all these, uh, stuff. And we have neuroscientists in the department, computational biologists. We- recently, we have recruited, uh, multiple AI ML people. One of them joined along with me. So they are more focused on machine learning. The other person who recently joined, uh, one focuses on ultrasound, the other focuses on, uh, machine learning and AI ML for, uh, MRI, CT scan.

    5. SPSpeaker32:51

       Okay.

    6. ARDr. Anubama Rajan32:52

       We also have people who are doing medical device development, optoelectronics. So we have a bunch of faculty who are in different flavors.

    7. SPSpeaker32:59

       Okay.

    8. ARDr. Anubama Rajan33:00

       Hopefully, all of us will-

    9. SPSpeaker33:01

       What about people from the, from the medical background?

    10. ARDr. Anubama Rajan33:05

        So, uh, the department have these core faculties, and we also have ten professors of practice. So all these profe- professors of practice, or POPs, are clinicians who are there in multiple city hospitals. They are like the top-notch surgeons and physicians that you will see. So they, uh, actively take part in the growth of the department, and they offer a few lectures, I would say. They don't run the course fully because their patient commitment and, uh, their social commitment is huge. But they come and give us a primer on what the students should focus on. And the students, for a majority of our courses, they also spend time equally at hospital, so that whatever... Uh, a classical example is a cardiomechanics course run by Professor RKK. So whatever concept he teaches in the class, the students go visit the hospital during the weekend, and they see how the cardiomechanics actually work during a heart transplant. So this is a very unique opportunity that students have. Several of them are so fascinated, like, how is it like a mathematical equation creating a blood flow in a live human? So in a heart transplant surgery and, like, valve replacement, how you place the valve actually plays a critical role than yo- you would actually imagine. You are- I mean, a biomaterial person would say, "This ma- kind of material is what will give valve the lifetime." A biologist will say, "You have to match to the patient." A doctor would be more focused on the disease biology. But as an engineer, what is the degree or the angle which will allow free flow of the blood?

    11. SPSpeaker34:42

        Sure.

    12. ARDr. Anubama Rajan34:42

        So these are the things that we are-

    13. SPSpeaker34:44

        Okay

    14. ARDr. Anubama Rajan34:44

        ... enabling the students to actively think.

    15. SPSpeaker34:46

        Very interesting. So there are different faculty from different-

    16. ARDr. Anubama Rajan34:50

        Yeah

    17. SPSpeaker34:50

        ... uh, fields, r- ranging from, uh, math to AI ML, to, um, engineering, hardcore-

    18. ARDr. Anubama Rajan34:57

        Yeah

    19. SPSpeaker34:57

        ... mechanical engineering, to, uh, clinicians, cellular biologists.

    20. ARDr. Anubama Rajan35:01

        Yeah.

    21. SPSpeaker35:01

        That's very fascinating. So these students who join at BS in Medical Science, they have a four-year course. Did you mention that, uh, they spend a lot of time in hospitals also?

    22. ARDr. Anubama Rajan35:09

        Yes.

    23. SPSpeaker35:09

        Right.

    24. ARDr. Anubama Rajan35:09

        And in fact, uh, it is mandatory in their curriculum that, uh, they have to do hospital internship as a part of their regular internship. Uh, in the- usually in the second year, after the second year, during the summer break, they have to go spend about ten days at AIIMS, New Delhi, to learn in general about how hospital system works, about the different departments in the hospital. And once they complete their overall training from AIIMS, New Delhi, they have a one-month internship at a local hospital at Chennai-

    25. SPSpeaker35:40

        Okay

    26. ARDr. Anubama Rajan35:40

        ... so where they start with a specific department after getting a overview, and then they have to identify a problem that the particular department faces-

    27. SPSpeaker35:49

        Okay

    28. ARDr. Anubama Rajan35:49

        ... and they have to think about an engineering solution to it. So this is a mandated internship as a part of their curriculum.

    29. SPSpeaker35:56

        Understood. So these students, they seem... I'm, by the way, I feel very jealous.

12. 36:00 – 41:40

    Future career prospects of medical science graduates at IITM

    1. SPSpeaker36:00

       [chuckles]

    2. ARDr. Anubama Rajan36:01

       Me too. I wish I could be a student in this department.

    3. SPSpeaker36:05

       Uh, what do they graduate and do? Like, is there, is there jobs? Do they go do research? Like, I, I know that the first batch hasn't graduated yet.

    4. ARDr. Anubama Rajan36:12

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker36:13

       I think they'll graduate next year, no, to 2027.

    6. ARDr. Anubama Rajan36:15

       2027, yeah.

    7. SPSpeaker36:17

       So what, what does the, what does the department think they will likely do?

    8. ARDr. Anubama Rajan36:20

       I'm- I want to say a disclaimer first. I'm a much junior faculty, but if I have the right to credit-... uh, senior faculty may have much more, uh, you know, stronger response to it. But I would envision them into four different buckets. One could be, uh, the set of students who get interested in a specific topic that they learned here. So of course, they will go pursue their master's, either in the s- um, same environment or go seed themselves somewhere and do PhD and go on in a specific direction to develop a concept or a technology that they are interested in.

    9. SPSpeaker36:56

       Like you have done?

    10. ARDr. Anubama Rajan36:56

        Like I have done. The classical example. The second would be some of these students could land up in an industry, uh, which could be a healthcare industry or, uh, something totally different, too. But they are primed with enough fundamentals to go on down the road of, uh, a healthcare industry, which can be in electronics, which can be, um, pharmaceutical, multiple different sectors.

    11. SPSpeaker37:20

        Okay, so like a, uh, equipment manufacturer or medical-

    12. ARDr. Anubama Rajan37:24

        Medical equipment manufacturer-

    13. SPSpeaker37:26

        Or drug-

    14. ARDr. Anubama Rajan37:26

        ... or, uh, drug discovery-

    15. SPSpeaker37:28

        Drug discovery.

    16. ARDr. Anubama Rajan37:28

        - or, uh, surgical, uh, de- device development.

    17. SPSpeaker37:31

        Or maybe a vaccine company.

    18. ARDr. Anubama Rajan37:32

        Vaccine company. So these are all the second possibilities. The third would be a totally different field, of course. Like, uh, they, they like, they probably found some other interest, and they go on. And now, right now, in India's trend on having your own startup or, like, uh... There's a lot of call for entrepreneurship and stuff. I also see some of these individuals could have, you know, products that they develop on their own that helps give back to the community. In fact, for a majority of the courses, we do tell the students, like, today, 90% of the equipments that we ca- get in the field of medicine are all imported, and the actual price of the equipment would be far less. But because there is a monopoly involved and there's lo- lot of importing duty and stuff, we pay a lot more. This is one of the reason why, uh, surgery and medicine is so expensive. So if these students can find a way to do that on- as a, as our own Indian component, that would mean a lot to the community.

    19. SPSpeaker38:34

        Yeah.

    20. ARDr. Anubama Rajan38:35

        So some of them could get actually invested in it and go on to develop their own medical devices and stuff.

    21. SPSpeaker38:42

        Nice. Yeah, it would be nice to have an Indian company build a MRI machine or something like that.

    22. ARDr. Anubama Rajan38:48

        Absolutely, right.

    23. SPSpeaker38:49

        Professor, this is great. Thank you for sharing all this. Um, you had started saying, and I cut you off, that the department also has, uh, other courses, not just the BS in Medical Engineering. Of course, that's an undergrad course. Uh, are there post-grad, uh, courses? What do the courses look like? Where do they attract students from?

    24. ARDr. Anubama Rajan39:06

        Sure. So we do have an MS program, PhD program, and what I'm really fascinated is the MD-PhD program. So the MD-PhD program is, uh... I think this is very unique and the first time in India, uh, where the goal is to develop physician scientists. So when you ask the question of, like, why, you know, in an engineering school, you have medicine? This is where I said, "You will see MD-PhD programs in many Western universities, which is not new today." So in fact, my post-doc mentor was an MD-PhD. So, well, here, the MD is offered by Ramachandra Medical University, which is now called as Sriher, uh, and the PhD is given by, uh, IIT Madras. So the goal again is to develop these physician scientists. So what this would enable us to bring or blend in engineering and other technology to solve medical problems. So this is one of the unique thing in the department. The second is we also offer PhD program to physicians. So in fact, uh, for one of my class that I teach on engineering organoids, I have, uh, Dr. Karthik Kailas. He's a spine surgeon with, uh, probably like four or five decades of experience. I don't know exactly, but he takes this class, and, uh, he brings in very interesting questions to the class, like, "Okay, I want to, uh, develop these kind of, uh, spine injury models using organoids," and stuff. So what this is enabling is allowing the doctors to come attend these engineering courses and learn about how can they use engineering to solve the most pressing problem in the clinic today.

    25. SPSpeaker40:45

        That is damn interesting, because I think that what happens in the medical field, doctors, as they grow, they're used to getting these, uh, information or equipment or, uh, things from big companies-

    26. ARDr. Anubama Rajan40:55

        Yes

    27. SPSpeaker40:55

        ... global companies. So it's- they, they may feel very, like, their agency is completely lost. "I can't figure this out."

    28. ARDr. Anubama Rajan41:01

        Exactly.

    29. SPSpeaker41:01

        "I have to depend on someone else."

    30. ARDr. Anubama Rajan41:03

        Yeah.
13. 41:40 – 46:00

    What does the Centre of Excellence for Diabetes Research at IITM do?

    1. SPSpeaker41:40

       I, I, I have in my notes that you are the PI for one more lab called SCODER. Um, what is that about, and-

    2. ARDr. Anubama Rajan41:46

       Sure

    3. SPSpeaker41:47

       ... how is that organized?

    4. ARDr. Anubama Rajan41:47

       So, uh, SCODER is actually a Centre of Excellence for Diabetes Research, and this is- this center gives prestigious, uh, fellowship for those individuals who are interested in working in diabetes research. Center is an initiative by one of our alumni, Mr. Shankar Subramaniam, and, uh, there's also a computer science block that's named after him. So he, he is a philanthropist, and he's also a businessman, and he has several companies. His objective was very clear: "I want IIT Madras to work on diabetes research, but I don't want you all to do a blue sky research. I want you to work on technologies that will help some problem or most problem that the diabetic community faces today."... So these PhD students that we are, that are recruited have a very specific goal. They can do their diabetes research in area, but as a PhD student, they have to develop a tool or technology that helps solving diabetes. So the scholar have multiple questions and multiple problems, but all of that are mostly focused on a specific tool or technology that we will develop to solve diabetes.

    5. SPSpeaker43:00

       Nice.

    6. ARDr. Anubama Rajan43:00

       So that's the scholar, and, uh, I co-head this with Bobby George, who is, uh, also the head of the Department of MST.

    7. SPSpeaker43:09

       It's damn interesting. You know, when I was in college at IIT Madras, I ha- I would have never thought that diabetes research would happen here, or... I mean, I've met other faculty also. Somebody's working on the heart, somebody's working on the brain, and these are not things that I had imagined would happen here. But it's very interesting to see how an institute evolves over time, and so on. Um, thank you for sharing so much. Just I want to deviate a little bit and go onto something totally different. Um, Professor, you are very vocal on social media. You share a lot about your, uh, career, about the way you think, and the way you've grown. Uh, how is it like being a faculty in the era of social media? [chuckles] And a young faculty in the era of social media.

    8. ARDr. Anubama Rajan43:46

       I think, um, it's like- Okay, in science, we say either you publish or perish.

    9. SPSpeaker43:52

       Mm-hmm.

    10. ARDr. Anubama Rajan43:52

        That, uh, that usually talks about if you want to survive in academia, you need to continue to show excellence and stuff. But in the era of social media, you either show up or you are in your own, uh, domain and do stuff. And to be honest, I, I'm, I'm very talkative, but I'm talkative to individuals I'm comfortable with.

    11. SPSpeaker44:13

        Mm.

    12. ARDr. Anubama Rajan44:14

        So this was me breaking my barriers and learning to talk to my ecosystem, and I wanted to do this for a couple of reasons. One, uh, having left the country in, uh, about 2011, 2012, when I came back in 2023 for good, I felt like I didn't know anybody here. But, uh, occasionally I would bump into individuals at conferences and stuff, and I'll just talk to them over a cup of coffee about, like, "Okay, this is all happening, and I'm f- finding this difficult," or, "This is really interesting. We are building this, starting from the scratch." And one, uh, feedback that I constantly got was, "Anu, your stories are really great. Put it down. Start... You know, start writing a blog or, uh, on Instagram reels or something." And, um, and I have kept going back and forth about it, so that's was the initiator for the MST Diaries on, uh, my first year at the MST, and what it took to be back here, and what it took to build something from ground up. So when I started this, uh, in this department, um, we really didn't have anything. But now I'll be happy to share some pictures. We have some of the amazing facilities that the country has.

    13. SPSpeaker45:30

        Sure.

    14. ARDr. Anubama Rajan45:30

        And of course, IIT Madras was the place to do that.

    15. SPSpeaker45:33

        Mm.

    16. ARDr. Anubama Rajan45:34

        And, uh, this would not have happened without the support from the seniors in the department and our director, uh, included. So-

    17. SPSpeaker45:42

        Maybe you can convince the director to be more present on LinkedIn. [chuckles] I'm not sure he has-

    18. ARDr. Anubama Rajan45:48

        I don't know if he has time.

    19. SPSpeaker45:49

        Yeah, he doesn't have time.

    20. ARDr. Anubama Rajan45:49

        So that, that is the thing, right? With social media, it is... I also-

    21. SPSpeaker45:53

        Takes a lot of time.

    22. ARDr. Anubama Rajan45:54

        It takes a lot of time. It's a responsibility. So initially, I started in summer with the goal of finishing

14. 46:00 – 51:00

    How does Dr. Anubama juggle social media management as a science communicator along with all her responsibilities?

    1. ARDr. Anubama Rajan46:00

       this, uh, series in summer, but we are at the end of the year. So I'm like, at least by end of this year, I should finish everything that I wanted to say. Uh, it does take a lot of your time, and you also want to be care, uh, very careful with your thoughts over there. You want to give a good impact and influence on individuals, but not otherwise. So that was the objectives. Like, um, one particular event that changed me was, like, multiple young graduate students who are just starting their master's or ambitious to get into the PhD programme, they'll be like, "I'm so inspired by what you're doing. Can you just tell how, how did, how did this happen? What did you do? What challenges you faced? How did you overcome?" So it felt like, okay, how, what... I thought it was my personal journey, but it's having a good influence on someone.

    2. SPSpeaker46:51

       Yeah.

    3. ARDr. Anubama Rajan46:51

       So maybe before I forget, let me just write it down.

    4. SPSpeaker46:54

       Awesome.

    5. ARDr. Anubama Rajan46:54

       So, yeah.

    6. SPSpeaker46:55

       Makes sense. I'm just reminded of an interview I did with Professor Ravindran last year, and, uh, of course, he was not talking about his journey, but he told me that, uh, when he was young, he used to... And when he was a young faculty, he used to run a blog at the, whatever, early 2000s, maybe late 1990s. Uh, it was quite funny to see, hear him say that. Of course, now he's very busy, and so on, but-

    7. ARDr. Anubama Rajan47:17

       Yeah. I mean, uh, this is also another way to find people who you can connect to or to talk about things that you otherwise would not talk about. So I would say it's a sort of my therapy session sometime-

    8. SPSpeaker47:31

       Mm

    9. ARDr. Anubama Rajan47:31

       ... because, uh, you know, my mom has this habit. Whenever she goes through something strong, whether it is-

    10. SPSpeaker47:36

        Mm

    11. ARDr. Anubama Rajan47:36

        ... positive or negative, she would write it down. And I think, uh, it's just a gene that I've inherited [chuckles] from my mother, I should say. So writing it down makes me feel better about it, and also sometimes if I just don't want, don't want to hold on and think about all the struggles, it's a good way of passing it down and putting it to rest.

    12. SPSpeaker47:57

        Yeah.

    13. ARDr. Anubama Rajan47:57

        So there are multiple reasons I started it.

    14. SPSpeaker48:00

        Nice. I hope you inspire other faculty also to open up more, and we, we, we get to see, uh, s- uh, gen- generally, people like me, uh, will get to see a little bit more about how faculty life is and what decisions are there. I think, eh, people tend to just think of them as teachers who give lectures, and don't realise that their lives are quite complicated and a lot of things are there. Um, [chuckles] professor, I want to ask you last question, I promise.

    15. ARDr. Anubama Rajan48:26

        Mm.

    16. SPSpeaker48:26

        Already taken an hour of your time. Um, in addition to being a faculty who takes courses and mentors students, you are a PI in two labs. One of them is, uh, fairly new, but one of them is more established, and-... uh, in addition to all of this, you spend time on social media, you write about your experience, uh, but [chuckles] you're also a mother of three children. Is that right?

    17. ARDr. Anubama Rajan48:51

        That is right.

    18. SPSpeaker48:52

        Um, that is a job in itself, uh, and pretty hard. So my question really is, how do you manage these, and, uh, and I, I, it's, it's... Yeah, I mean, like, yeah, I don't know what else to ask. [chuckles]

    19. ARDr. Anubama Rajan49:07

        I, um, I deal my two sons and a star. I would say, well, I have two boys and a girl. Uh, to be very, very honest, um, there are things that I try to think and do in my life with respect to my family, most states my husband's decision and God's blessing. So one thing I would say is, um, whether you're a mother or whether you have a personal life or not, your passion for science should never be put down. The fire in you would... I love you, should continue to, uh, exist, and that's what propels you to keep going. So, um, I had my first kid during my first year of PhD.

    20. SPSpeaker49:50

        Mm-hmm.

    21. ARDr. Anubama Rajan49:51

        And, uh, I was... To be honest, I was very nervous to go and tell my PI about it. So my advisor, Dr Anthony Marisso, I thought he would be angry, upset, probably kicked out of the lab. I had all these emotions going through, and then I went to him and I told, "See, I'm expecting," and I had my qualifier exam coming up. So I told him, "See, I want to finish my qualifier as soon as I come back from maternity, but during my time off, this is what I want to do." So I wanted to go discuss with the plan, with the whole, you know, whole series of, uh, homework that I did on how I would plan, expecting that he would be harsh. I think what he told changed my life. He was like, "Anu, you're a human. You, you just got married. Of course, you need to have family. That can... That should never come in the way of science, or it should never intimidate you from doing that." So when the way he handled how, uh, you know, the whole concept of kids in academia was something that was very positively enriching for me. And he also said, "I know I had my kid when I was also a graduate student, and I have

15. 51:00 – 1:01:34

    Reflections on being a woman in STEM - is Indian academia truly fair?

    1. ARDr. Anubama Rajan51:00

       three kids, and I had my other children during my postdoc." So whether it's a mom or a dad-

    2. SPSpeaker51:05

       Yeah.

    3. ARDr. Anubama Rajan51:06

       So, uh, during my qualifying exam, I used to rock my son on this arm, and I would write for my, uh, qualifying exam presentation and stuff using laptop here. The struggle is real, but do you enjoy both, and do you want to do both?

    4. SPSpeaker51:21

       Mm.

    5. ARDr. Anubama Rajan51:22

       If the answer is yes, you will find ways to do. And, uh, of course, you need a supportive family, and I'm very, um, like, I... Grateful is not the word. I have to invent some word to, you know, to thank my parents, my in-laws, and my husband, who all stood by me like a rock and who all continue to stand by me. So without that, this is not possible. It does take a village to raise a child. And also, as a woman, I will tell this, um, it's not just about them helping, it's also about you telling them and asking for help. So-

    6. SPSpeaker52:02

       Yeah, actually, as you're answering that question, I'm just thinking that, um, the, the balance, I mean, the way our society is organized, and of course, it's changed, the balance for, uh, women, uh, for mothers is harder than for fathers.

    7. ARDr. Anubama Rajan52:16

       Just... Yes, but that's the... I mean, that's where I would go back to this whole concept of, uh, you know, empowering women. Why is... Why should this be harder for mothers?

    8. SPSpeaker52:27

       Yeah, 100%.

    9. ARDr. Anubama Rajan52:27

       It's equal responsibly.

    10. SPSpeaker52:28

        100%. I think our-

    11. ARDr. Anubama Rajan52:29

        Yeah

    12. SPSpeaker52:30

        ... our fathers should... I mean, I'm, I'm the father of a, uh, tw- a 12-year-old. Um, I do think that in, fathers should be more involved and-

    13. ARDr. Anubama Rajan52:39

        Yeah

    14. SPSpeaker52:39

        ... should take more effort.

    15. ARDr. Anubama Rajan52:40

        Uh, yeah, should be more involved is one way, and, uh, in fact, like, my friends had to give me this intervention, right? Uh, as a woman, uh, we typically have this expectation that husband should understand us. They should see that, you know, we are suffering, we are doing all the chores, we are taking care of the office, well, "Why can't you get up, come and help?" So my friends, I mean, however learned you are, there is always a spot where you can be as dumb as can be. So they're like: "Just go tell him you need help." And when you ask for help, Tipia, and I don't know, I don't wanna generalize men mindset here, usual response is, "I'll do it after five minutes. I'll do it after 30 minutes." And I'm a person who is very impatient, and I'll be like: "You didn't do it, so let me finish." I didn't know to take a pause or break. Then I started communi... I had to learn to communicate to my own husband, even though I lived with him for several years, say, "I am in pain. If you don't do this, I'm gonna get frustrated. So whatever you are doing, unless it is very important, please come help me." So when I talked about what I was going through with him, it really changed, and that was... You know, that happened because my friends had to give me that intervention. So it's not like men don't want to help, they just don't know that they have to help at a certain time, or they are not told how they should help. That's one view. But there are also other categories of men in life. I don't wanna talk about it or touch down, but it- you always have to learn to, uh, articulate what you need and, uh, your struggles so that people around you can understand.

    16. SPSpeaker54:19

        And then just-

    17. ARDr. Anubama Rajan54:19

        Yeah.

    18. SPSpeaker54:20

        Mm. And, and take the effort.

    19. ARDr. Anubama Rajan54:22

        Take the effort.

    20. SPSpeaker54:22

        Yeah, and step in.

    21. ARDr. Anubama Rajan54:23

        Yeah.

    22. SPSpeaker54:23

        Um, do you think that, uh... I mean, for women in STEM, of course, uh, I s- I spoke to a bunch of, uh, faculty who have come here, uh, who mostly said that in, in general, in undergrad and postgrad, uh, there is a higher level of participation of women than earlier, but then it thins down later on in life, uh, as, um-... as women take more familial roles and so on. Is this a big, uh, concern?

    23. ARDr. Anubama Rajan54:50

        This is definitely a concern, I would say. And there are multiple-- I cannot put down my pen on one particular thing that's contributing to it. This is definitely a cumulative effect. Uh, so as an undergrad, as a grad student, women's responsibility, I think, on a family level is far less, and, uh, the expectation is also far less. But as you grow up, you have multiple childrens in life, like one that you give birth to, and then the one who gave birth to you, and then there are your work children, and, and then there is your life. So there are a lot of these personal factors that also contribute to how women start to choose family over work sometimes, and sometimes politics also kicks in. Like, I, I say politics because, like, if a woman is not able to perform at a certain time, then they are judged harshly, and then they lack the opportunities to go up. And that typically, I feel like that's a threshold time or the rate-limiting step for majority of the women is, like, their mid-career, because that's when the majority of the men actually shoot up, because they are- they have-- they did their work, they are at a job, they are just so focused. They come home and tell their wife or, like, their family, "I'm just gonna focus on getting this, getting this, getting this, and the next level." But this kind of thought process and even the empowerment, I think we are more afraid to do, and we have a lot more baggage to carry forward. And, uh, there should be multiple things that enable women to do that.

    24. SPSpeaker56:22

        Fair enough. From a storytelling perspective, and, uh... By, by the way, my mother was working throughout her career. Uh, she must have started in 1983, retired, like, three years back. So I, I think I've seen it firsthand, the kind of struggle she has had mid-career. Um, what I wanted to say was that from a storytelling perspective, sometimes people tend to focus too much on the beginning and the end, but actually it's the great middle-

    25. ARDr. Anubama Rajan56:49

        Mm

    26. SPSpeaker56:49

        ... where the whole story happens. And, uh, I think in careers also, the, the maybe the age thirty to age fifty, so many things have to fall in place, and-

    27. ARDr. Anubama Rajan56:58

        Yep

    28. SPSpeaker56:58

        ... uh, so many little nudges.

    29. ARDr. Anubama Rajan57:00

        Mm.

    30. SPSpeaker57:00

        Uh, so much support is required from everyone else.

Episode duration: 1:01:35