JEE Prep LIED to You: Here's Why You Need To BUILD a Career After JEE | Propelld CEO on BP2B S2 Ep.5

Speaker 0:00 did you not at some point think, "Maybe startup life is not for me, let me go get a job?"

Victor Senapaty 0:03 BYJU'S success or failure defined the entire ecosystem, which risk is a good risk and which risk is a bad risk, and there is a way of doing it, and so you guys should also be open about that. That's when that money flows in.

Speaker 0:16 The mistakes we regret are less of commission and more of omission, things we didn't do-

Victor Senapaty 0:20 Yeah

Speaker 0:20 ... rather than-

Victor Senapaty 0:21 Yes

Speaker 0:21 ... the things we did.

Victor Senapaty 0:22 Look, education is an investment. Uh, people plan for education. It's not a very individual investment, it's a family investment. Your traditional banks, uh, and NBFCs typically look at education not so different from how they would look at a personal loan. In my head, you know, there's a back gate, and there's a sand beach starting-

Speaker 0:44 From the back gate [laughing]

Victor Senapaty 0:46 ... from the back gate. [laughing]

Speaker 0:46 Hi, this

Speaker 0:47 is Amrit. We are at IIT Madras, my alma mater, and India's top university for people who like to build. We are here to meet some builders, ask them: What are you building? What does it take to build? And what makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music] Hello, and welcome to the Best Place to Build Podcast. Today, we are sitting with Victor. Victor is the CEO and Co-Founder of Propelld. Uh, it's a Series C company in education financing. He's also a student here from 2007 to '11. Hi, Victor.

Victor Senapaty 1:32 Hi, Amrit. Thanks for having me here.

Speaker 1:35 Victor, let's start with the most obvious question. You represent a company called Propelld.

Victor Senapaty 1:38 Yeah.

Speaker 1:38 So can you start with what Propelld does?

Victor Senapaty 1:41 So, um, Propelld does,

Victor Senapaty 1:43 uh, education financing. Uh, so we give out loans to students who are in need for, uh, education loans. So they want to pursue educational courses, and they are in need of funds, that's where we come in. Uh, we are an NBFC. We've been there since the last seven years now. Uh, we are close to a 1200 crores AUM right now. Uh, we give out loans, uh, up to at least, uh, 2.5 lakh students every year. Uh, I think we would be at par or probably higher than an SBI in terms of the number of students that we give out loans to. We have had, uh, you know, performance where our, uh, NPAs, uh, which is seen as a gold standard, uh, you know, in the NBFC industry, we have our NPAs close to around a 1% level, and we are near, near profitable, so...

Speaker 2:30 Wait, wait, wait, I want to just ask you a little bit about that. NPA is non-performing asset, right?

Victor Senapaty 2:33 Correct.

Speaker 2:34 From a very layman perspective, NPA is when a person who has taken a loan is not returning the loan.

Victor Senapaty 2:39 Correct.

Speaker 2:39 Right?

Victor Senapaty 2:40 You're absolutely right. As in if there are 100 people who have taken loans, how much of your money is coming back? How much of your money is lost? Uh, the money lost is basically your NPAs.

Speaker 2:49 And you're saying that, uh, Propelld is at 1%, which is a gold standard.

Victor Senapaty 2:53 Correct.

Speaker 2:53 How much will be the industry average?

Victor Senapaty 2:55 Probably around 10%.

Speaker 2:57 What? It's a- you're saying it's from 10% to 1% for you.

Victor Senapaty 3:00 Yes.

Speaker 3:01 Um-

Victor Senapaty 3:02 Yeah

Speaker 3:02 ... I want to ask you also, education financing is a pretty old business, so y- you are into this, um, older business. You are sort of achieving something that's 10X

Speaker 3:10 better than-

Victor Senapaty 3:11 Yeah

Speaker 3:11 ... um, the industry average. What is the, what is it, what is it that you guys have invented or figured out that is helping you do this?

Victor Senapaty 3:18 When we went in, in education financing, we had a certain, uh, conviction, uh, and a thesis in mind. Our thesis was that, um, look, education is an investment. Uh, people plan for education, and especially in, in India, families plan for education. Uh, it's not a very individual investment, it's a family investment. Uh, and the output is also very family-centric. The ROI is accrued to the family, it's not to the individual person per se. Um, so what we realized is that, um, your traditional banks, uh, and NBFCs typically look at education, uh, not so different from how they would look at a personal loan. Uh, which is to say that you just look at the individual's current capabilities, and you underwrite that individual's capability of, um, servicing the loan, uh, servicing the cash flows of the EMI that is going to come, come by.

Speaker 4:17 Fair enough. Let me tell you what I remember-

Victor Senapaty 4:19 Sure

Speaker 4:19 ... from whatever I have learned. Uh, correct me if I'm wrong.

Victor Senapaty 4:22 Yeah, yeah, please.

Speaker 4:22 If I'm giving a loan to someone, then I want to check for his capability to return it-

Victor Senapaty 4:27 Correct

Speaker 4:27 ... and his intent to return it.

Victor Senapaty 4:29 Correct.

Speaker 4:29 And so I'll use proxies like, does he have enough salary? Does he have enough assets-

Victor Senapaty 4:35 Yeah

Speaker 4:35 ... uh, to be able to afford it? And has he given loans, has he, has he repaid loans in earlier-

Victor Senapaty 4:40 Correct

Speaker 4:41 ... as a proxy for intent?

Victor Senapaty 4:42 Correct. Correct.

Speaker 4:43 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 4:43 Yeah. So where we differ is in a couple of things. One is, um, we feel that, um, both in terms of intent and ability, there's a big difference when you're taking a personal loan, which is a, uh, you know, expense that you're going to make, versus when you're going for an education loan, which is an investment that you're making. Already the intent is very high for somebody who is doing an educational- which, who is pursuing an educational course. Depending on what the student's, uh, you know, history, academic history has been and where they're going to, there you can sort of take a guess at their intent as well.

Speaker 5:25 Sure.

Victor Senapaty 5:25 Uh, so for example, a student who has, let's say, a 80%-plus career or an 85%-plus career, going into a, let's say, a Tier 2 private college, like a lovely professional university, uh, you know, his career is wide open in front of him once he goes there. The intent is going to be really high to complete that course.

Speaker 5:46 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 5:47 And then, of course, that ability also comes in because, you know, because it's an investment, and once you do that course, uh, you are supposed to get some income, and that income is supposed to grow over time as well. So-... that's the difference. That's how we look at it.

Speaker 6:03 That's very interesting. You are saying that the intent and ability markers comes from, um, if he has performed consistently academically, that's like, ah, an intent to do well in life?

Victor Senapaty 6:15 Correct.

Speaker 6:16 And, uh, if he's, uh, gotten a good course, then he will obviously get a better salary or get a good job-

Victor Senapaty 6:23 Correct.

Speaker 6:23 -and therefore, the ability will anyway follow.

Victor Senapaty 6:25 Correct. So all of those factors play in, the student's academics, the quality of the institute or the quality of the course that he's taking-

Speaker 6:33 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 6:34 -and the potential outcomes that could come in. They, they relate both with intent and with ability as well.

Speaker 6:40 So as a, as somebody who's giving a loan, you are betting on person's, uh, academic prowess and his, uh, course that he's taken?

Victor Senapaty 6:48 Correct. We are, yeah.

Speaker 6:50 But this is good in theory, and, uh, how do you implement it on a scale, um, that's large enough? You said two and a half lakh, uh, loans given to two and a half lakh individuals-

Victor Senapaty 7:00 Correct

Speaker 7:01 ... uh, across the country, I'm sure.

Victor Senapaty 7:02 Yes.

Speaker 7:02 Um, how do you, uh, systematize this? How do you collect the signals for it? Uh, you know, especially in a country like India, i-if, if I send you a grade card of 80%-

Victor Senapaty 7:12 Uh

Speaker 7:13 ... uh, and I'm applying to a loan to you, how do you know whether it's... Because some schools are very generous with grades.

Victor Senapaty 7:19 Yeah.

Speaker 7:20 Some boards are very generous with grades.

Victor Senapaty 7:21 Yeah.

Speaker 7:22 Some people are, uh, very generous with how they write their mark sheet.

Victor Senapaty 7:25 Sure.

Speaker 7:26 How do you, how do you make this a system?

Victor Senapaty 7:28 You know, what, uh, we have understood after spending time, a lot of time in financial services is, is that, um, you know, you optimize, uh, you know, for risk, uh, rather than credit. So what I mean by that is that, uh, for me, what matters is how good the institute is, and what's the quality of their outcomes, and how can I, you know, sort of standardize that data and sort of be really sure about that institute's outcome-

Speaker 7:59 Mm

Victor Senapaty 8:00 ... uh, you know, versus looking at an institute which has not a great outcome, but look, trying to find good students within that. That-that's probably going to be a later stage for us.

Speaker 8:10 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 8:11 Right now, you know, we look at it from a wholesale risk point of view, uh, not at a very retail sort of level. So let's say, again-

Speaker 8:20 So if a course is doing well in a university that's doing well, that's, uh, one point higher in your risk system?

Victor Senapaty 8:26 Yeah, that's how it is. As in, the, the quality of the institute, the quality of the course with respect to outcomes, uh, how... You know, what are the data points that we can get to, uh, really be certain that the outcomes are what are being shown, uh, or what are being published, and how do we sort of take a feedback system, uh, and be doubly sure that, you know, this is what the outcomes are like? That's what we optimize for.

Speaker 8:53 Nice. Okay, I have a broad sense of what you're doing, and obviously you are one of the largest, uh, and you've just got your NBFC license. But, um, I- did you start with this? Uh, w- what was your first idea

Speaker 9:05 when you started your entrepreneurship journey?

Victor Senapaty 9:07 Uh, my first idea was, uh, something extremely different. Uh, so, you know, uh, the first idea that we had was, uh, uh, you know, uh, I had a company which was, uh, into teaching astronomy to kids. Uh, so we'd built a-

Speaker 9:24 Okay

Victor Senapaty 9:25 ... we'd built a portable planetarium. Um, that was with a senior of mine from IIT Madras as well, and we used to take it to schools, carry that to schools, set it up, have like a camp, astronomy camp over a week, get students in, and sort of, uh, show them, uh, astronomy shows and teach them about shows. Uh-

Speaker 9:45 When was this?

Victor Senapaty 9:46 This was, uh, way back in, um, I think, uh, '13 to, sorry, '14 to '15.

Speaker 9:55 And where was this?

Victor Senapaty 9:57 This was in, um, you know, partly in Bangalore and partly in Mumbai.

Speaker 10:01 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 10:01 Yeah.

Speaker 10:02 So you had a astronomy kit, and you were taking it to schools?

Victor Senapaty 10:05 Yes.

Speaker 10:06 Okay, so then, uh, this is- I'm very curious, how did you move from there?

Victor Senapaty 10:10 How did I move from there into the NBFC? That didn't happen in a straight line as well.

Speaker 10:15 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 10:16 Um, so the, uh, uh, you know, uh, Propelld is the fourth startup that I'm doing, actually.

Speaker 10:23 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 10:24 Yeah.

Speaker 10:24 You have my attention. Let's go through each one. So one is astronomy.

Victor Senapaty 10:28 Yeah.

Speaker 10:28 Did it have a name?

Victor Senapaty 10:29 Yeah, Astroworks.

Speaker 10:30 Okay, Astroworks. And then?

Victor Senapaty 10:35 Then, um, I started, um, we started, uh, hyperlocal grocery delivery-

Speaker 10:41 Okay

Victor Senapaty 10:41 ... when there was Coolie.

Speaker 10:43 And this was which year?

Victor Senapaty 10:45 This was, uh, from probably around '15 to '16, probably a year.

Speaker 10:49 Okay. But hyperlocal grocery delivery, uh, even companies like Swiggy entered it much later, right?

Victor Senapaty 10:57 No, but if you remember, there used to be an earlier avatar of that, which used to be the avatar of Grofers for Blinkit.

Speaker 11:04 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 11:05 It was during those times.

Speaker 11:07 And, um, and did you run it for a while?

Victor Senapaty 11:10 Yeah, we ran it for a while. We ran it for about a year.

Speaker 11:13 Okay

Victor Senapaty 11:13 Uh, we, uh, you know, funnily, um, right when we were getting traction is when we realized that we can't run this business. Uh, the more traction we were getting, the more money we were losing.

Speaker 11:25 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 11:25 Uh, so that's-

Speaker 11:27 It's one of those businesses where you have to do, like, 20,000 crores to c- make money.

Victor Senapaty 11:32 Exactly. We did not understand those sort of things then.

Speaker 11:36 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 11:36 For us, it was as simple as we are losing probably 100 rupees per order-

Speaker 11:41 Mm

Victor Senapaty 11:41 ... and now it's scaling up from, let's say, five orders per day to, let's say, 50 orders per day.

Speaker 11:45 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 11:46 What are we going to do?

Speaker 11:47 So you had one startup called Astroworks, and then you moved to this hypergro- Did, did it have a name? Hypergrocery...

Victor Senapaty 11:53 Stockup.

Speaker 11:53 Stockup. Okay, Stockup. Um, and then?

Victor Senapaty 11:58 Then, um, you know, so basically, these are, these have been steps.

Speaker 12:02 Right.

Victor Senapaty 12:02 So, uh, you know, after, uh, Stockup-... uh, we realized that, look, we have the confidence of scaling things up, but we want to do something now which is going to give us money, uh, per transaction, uh, not lose money.

Speaker 12:17 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 12:17 And, uh, that's when we decided, uh, you know, we just thought, "Which is a place that we can, you know, actually have money?" So we thought, let's do something in the clothing business, as the margins are going to be very high. So we started a apparel startup called, uh, Pristine Cut. Uh, and yeah, again, we did that for a year. But that was a, that was a time when we actually made real money. Uh, we did, you know, probably within, uh, eight months, we did close to around 60 lakh of sales, and probably around 50% of- 50% margin, so, you know, we had, like, 30 lakh profit with us. Uh, yeah.

Speaker 12:58 So this Pristine Cut was, like, a, uh, you were selling clothes?

Victor Senapaty 13:01 Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 13:01 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 13:01 We were selling clothes.

Speaker 13:02 So I, I, I want to ask you in this, and I'm guessing Avtar 4 is Propelld.

Victor Senapaty 13:07 Yes.

Speaker 13:07 But before we get there, um, were these were the same set of co-founders?

Victor Senapaty 13:11 No, uh, but one of my co-founders was a part of, uh, from my second startup... Uh, was a part of my second and third startup journey, as in StockUp, the hyperlocal grocery one, and then, uh, the clothing one. So Brijesh, one of my co-founders, was a part of that.

Speaker 13:28 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 13:28 But that's not where I met him first.

Speaker 13:29 How do you-

Victor Senapaty 13:30 Bibhu and Brijesh, I actually know them from school-

Speaker 13:32 Okay

Victor Senapaty 13:32 ... from my school in, uh, Bhubaneswar, Stewart School. Actually have been schoolmates. We were there in the same class, in the same section in, uh, Bhubaneswar. Um, and, uh, yeah, as in we've always been together. Uh, Bibhu and me, we went to, you know, we went everywhere together, actually, as in we came to IIT Madras together. Before that, we were in Kota together at the same place. Um, you know, we went to 11, 12 together. We used to go to maths camps, maths Olympiad camps together. Uh, and with Brijesh, uh, he's been a friend, but then, you know, he moved, uh... You know, he, he also quit his company, uh, you know, to join me in StockUp, and so, uh, he's been a part from there. So that's how, uh, we've come together.

Speaker 14:17 I, I mean, I'm just, I'm just stunned here. Um, you knew your co-founders from school, uh, and, uh, you know, I guess you were in and out of each other's lives after-

Victor Senapaty 14:26 Yes

Speaker 14:26 ... college, and then you have these four startups. Did you not at some point think, "Maybe startup life is not for me, let me go get a job?" [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 14:34 I did.

Speaker 14:35 And then? [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 14:36 Uh-

Speaker 14:36 How, how, how did you find the courage to just stick on and keep trying?

Victor Senapaty 14:41 I think, um, uh, one piece was, um, I was, uh, I was growing, so I think, uh, a lot of these were also my choices to shut them down or not to pursue them. Uh-

Speaker 14:58 Fair enough. Your first startup was probably your first experience with building a product, and your second startup you were saying was scalable, but then you realized it's not profitable.

Victor Senapaty 15:06 Yeah.

Speaker 15:06 The third startup, you're learning about scalability, product, and profitability.

Victor Senapaty 15:10 Correct.

Speaker 15:10 Sort of, it's like, it's like a continuous progression.

Victor Senapaty 15:13 It's like an MBA. So yeah, yeah, it's like a, a practical MBA. [chuckles]

Speaker 15:16 Practical.

Victor Senapaty 15:17 It's a progression of that. And yeah, so I was learning. Uh...

Speaker 15:21 So how did you come up with the idea

Speaker 15:22 of Propelld?

Victor Senapaty 15:23 Actually, I didn't. It was Bibhu's idea.

Speaker 15:25 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 15:26 And, um, you know, uh, that's when me and Brijesh were doing Pristine Cut. Uh, but we thought this idea is way bigger and actually has a lot of, uh, you know, a lot of impact, and we could really build a large company and also help out students here, and that's when we decided, you know, let's do it together, and we decided to close down, uh-

Speaker 15:50 Mm

Victor Senapaty 15:50 ... Pristine Cut and do this full-time together. Uh, so that was-

Speaker 15:53 I-

Victor Senapaty 15:53 ... again, a choice.

Speaker 15:54 I remember talking to you earlier and you were talking about how in education, what's happened also-

Victor Senapaty 15:59 Yeah

Speaker 15:59 ... uh, in parallel, n- nothing related to your company, but that the cost of education has been sort of going up. And, uh, what happens is, I mean, it's going up to account for better teachers, better facilities, and so on. Uh, but what happens is that it starts excluding some people, right?

Victor Senapaty 16:16 Of course.

Speaker 16:16 And the affordability of education keeps going down. So in a sense, um, is that something that you guys are thinking about?

Victor Senapaty 16:24 We were. Um, you know, of course, uh, that's how we were thinking about it. Um, so, you know, let me go back to the very start of the idea, right? As in... So I- you know, we have a very strong belief, uh, that education, ideally, in an ideal world, should, should be a social expense. Uh, you know, so that's how Milton Friedman thought about education, so that's how we got inspired as well, because it's not just for the individual. Uh, as in, if you really think about it, once as- once somebody gets educated, the value comes in to not just him, but the family, to the neighborhood. A lot of neighbor kids also get, uh, you know, sort of inspired. To everybody, and the society as a whole, he's a better citizen, right?

Speaker 17:17 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 17:17 And, you know, uh, he can contribute more. So it should be a social expense, but that's not how it works. Um, and we've all seen how education has become out of reach, uh, in countries like the US.

Speaker 17:30 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 17:30 Uh, you know, of course, the quality of education is a lot higher, but if you start looking at the education, uh, the tuition fees versus the sort of ROIs-

Speaker 17:40 Correct

Victor Senapaty 17:40 ... uh, they're very separated now.

Speaker 17:43 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 17:43 And it's increased like crazy, uh, in the last few years.

Speaker 17:45 Yeah, even for top jobs, like if you are a, if you are studying for medicine-

Victor Senapaty 17:49 Yes

Speaker 17:49 ... in the US, and then even if you're working-

Victor Senapaty 17:51 Yes

Speaker 17:51 ... and you have a successful practice or you're working in a big hospital, it's like a 10, 15-year journey to pay back your debt.

Victor Senapaty 17:57 Exactly, right? And-

Speaker 17:57 For, like, a top job.

Victor Senapaty 17:59 Exactly.

Speaker 17:59 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 17:59 As in, if you open up, uh, [chuckles] um, you know, a Reddit thread, there'll be horror stories. There'll be stories of people having repaid back probably 50% of their-... uh, you know, uh, monthly salary for the last 10 years, and their, uh, you know, principal having reduced by only 30% or 40%. It's crazy. Uh, fortunately, in India, uh, education is way more, uh, uh, you know, value for money. Uh, although it's been changing over the last 10 years, there's still a lot of scope, uh, uh, you know, there's still a lot of gap, uh, between where we are versus where the US-

Speaker 18:37 Well, actually, in the US, the cost of education has gone up, but the, uh, the salaries have not equally gone up.

Victor Senapaty 18:43 They haven't.

Speaker 18:44 Uh, in India, I think it's better.

Victor Senapaty 18:47 Yeah, but still, you know, the way, uh, you know, the cost has gone up, the salaries have not gone up by that much.

Speaker 18:57 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 18:57 So of course, as a value for money, uh, the value has been decreasing over time.

Speaker 19:03 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 19:03 Uh, but it's still pretty good value for money.

Speaker 19:06 Mm, yeah. Actually, earlier it was, uh, almost free, right? So-

Victor Senapaty 19:10 Yeah, it's-

Speaker 19:11 I mean, I remember my... I, I was in IIT in 2003 to '8, my fees were 25K a semester.

Victor Senapaty 19:16 Yes.

Speaker 19:16 That's ridiculously-

Victor Senapaty 19:17 Yes

Speaker 19:18 ... low.

Victor Senapaty 19:19 Yeah.

Speaker 19:19 It can go up from that.

Victor Senapaty 19:21 Yeah, correct.

Speaker 19:22 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 19:22 Mm. So yeah, so the fees have been, uh, you know, increasing over time.

Speaker 19:28 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 19:29 Uh-

Speaker 19:29 So that excludes a certain number of people who find it really hard to sort of afford that fees, right?

Victor Senapaty 19:35 That does. That does. As in, if you, if, if I, if I think about my kids as well, uh, I will have a certain idea in mind for when my kids turn, let's say, 16 or 17, when they go into undergrad, uh, or even in schools as well. And, um, when I start saving up for it, after a point of time, you know, once I reach there, I'll find that probably that's not enough. I'll be short by close to around 40, 50%, uh, of what I should be saving up.

Speaker 20:06 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 20:06 Uh, so that does exclude a lot of people.

Speaker 20:09 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 20:09 And it creates a certain barrier. Uh, you know, uh, some s- some people get in and finish, let's say, two years out of four years of an undergrad, but then the remaining two years becomes a lot of stretch and becomes really hard, so...

Speaker 20:25 That's where Propelld may come in.

Victor Senapaty 20:27 Yes. Propelld comes in-

Speaker 20:28 Maybe at any point

Victor Senapaty 20:29 ... at any stage.

Speaker 20:29 Yeah, sure.

Victor Senapaty 20:30 Uh, but yeah.

Speaker 20:31 Okay, this is amazing, and, uh, you, you gave me a sense that your reach is two and a half lakhs kids, um, 1,200 CR in AUM, so that's a fantastic size. Congratulations.

Victor Senapaty 20:42 Thank you.

Speaker 20:42 Um, let's dial back to your,

Speaker 20:44 uh, your, your school-

Victor Senapaty 20:46 Yeah

Speaker 20:47 ... and how you got to IIT, and let's trace that journey a little bit.

Victor Senapaty 20:51 Sure. Um, no, so it's been a typical journey, and I think most IITians, uh, you know, would have that journey as well. You grow up in a Tier 2 city, everything that you hear from parents, uh, you know, and you see, uh, from parents is that, you know, IIT is a gold standard. That's where you have to be. Uh, you see a few guys, um, you know, who are seen as some rock stars, uh, some seniors who've gotten into IITs. There'll be very few, but they're seen like rock stars or gods, uh, and you aspire to just be that. You know, everything that's- that you do is like, you have to do whatever you need to do to just crack that exam and get to that place. So yeah, that's how the journey has been.

Speaker 21:37 And then when you came- when you got into IIT, uh, how, how come you landed up in Ch- uh, in Chennai? Because, uh, from Bhubaneswar, you would... And also the same question for your co-founder, who was also from here.

Victor Senapaty 21:47 Yeah.

Speaker 21:48 Um, how come you landed up in Chennai and not, say, in Kharagpur, which is obviously closer to Bhubaneswar, or in, uh, Delhi or Bombay?

Victor Senapaty 21:56 So interestingly, um, I went to Kharagpur, uh, for my, uh, what do you call that?

Speaker 22:01 Counseling.

Victor Senapaty 22:02 Counseling.

Speaker 22:02 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 22:02 It used to be a physical counseling-

Speaker 22:03 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 22:04 ... at that point of time. I realized that, um, you know, it's in, uh, you know, there are just fields surrounding it, uh, and there's just a campus. So I was like, "Oh, should I come here?"

Speaker 22:16 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 22:16 So I had always had that question: "Should I come here?" Then, um, what happened, funnily, is that, uh, I met a senior of mine, uh, you know, uh, one-year senior. He was already here. I got connected through a common friend. Um, and I asked him how Madras is, uh, as a campus: "Is it fun?" Uh, he, he sold Madras to me. [chuckles] He made it sound to me like, uh, "Hey, all you have to do is, uh, whenever you get bored, all you have to do is, uh, you know, uh, take a bag, uh, with spare clothes. In five minutes, you'll reach the beach. You can have a lot of fun in the beach."

Speaker 22:57 [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 22:58 Like, in my head, I always pictured it as, uh, you know, there's a back gate, and there's a sand beach starting from the back gate. [chuckles]

Speaker 23:08 From the back gate. [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 23:09 And-

Speaker 23:09 No, uh, uh, I think five kilometers from the back gate.

Victor Senapaty 23:12 Yes.

Speaker 23:13 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 23:13 Just five kilometers.

Speaker 23:14 Yeah. [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 23:15 And then, um, when I told my parents that, "Hey, I am inclined towards, uh, going to Chennai," my parents wholeheartedly supported that decision. In their head, uh, the way they were playing that was that, uh, "Look, South India, Tamil Nadu, those guys study really hard."

Speaker 23:33 Yeah. [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 23:33 "They're extremely serious, extremely disciplined. We want you there. Great choice!" [chuckles]

Speaker 23:38 Can I just say that I'm also Odia. I also have Odia parents, and they also believed forever-

Victor Senapaty 23:42 Yeah

Speaker 23:42 ... maybe they still do, that South Indians-

Victor Senapaty 23:44 Yeah

Speaker 23:44 ... study harder than North Indians or-

Victor Senapaty 23:47 Yeah

Speaker 23:47 ... Bengalis or Odias.

Victor Senapaty 23:48 Yeah.

Speaker 23:48 Nice. So that's how you ended up in Chennai?

Victor Senapaty 23:50 Yeah.

Speaker 23:50 And, um, how were your four years

Speaker 23:52 like? Were you, uh, were you an entrepreneur, uh, uh, in campus?

Victor Senapaty 23:57 No, I wasn't. I, uh, I, in fact, um, feel like I could have done a lot. You know, campus definitely offers a lot of opportunities, um, you know, probably more so, a lot more so now. Uh, and, uh, yeah, as in-... not much. I didn't do a, not m-

Speaker 24:18 I have to ask you, did you go to the beach? [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 24:20 I went to the beach. I went to the beach, but then I realized that it's really hard to go to the beach. [chuckles]

Speaker 24:25 Yeah. [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 24:25 You have to first, first of all, uh, you lose your cycle in the first six months.

Speaker 24:30 Oh, what? What, what? You lose your cycle in the first six months? You lost your cycle in the first six months?

Victor Senapaty 24:34 Yeah, probably, yeah, probably. It's probably not even six months. Probably in the first three months you'll lose your bicycle.

Speaker 24:39 Oh.

Victor Senapaty 24:39 It's, it's the same bicycle that everybody has.

Speaker 24:41 Yeah, that's true. That's-

Victor Senapaty 24:43 You just don't know-

Speaker 24:44 Yeah, yeah

Victor Senapaty 24:44 ... where your cycle is, who has it.

Speaker 24:45 Yeah, yeah.

Victor Senapaty 24:46 Somebody loses it-

Speaker 24:47 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 24:47 ... and then-

Speaker 24:48 Yeah, or a friend comes and says, "I'll borrow your bike," and then leaves it somewhere.

Victor Senapaty 24:51 Somewhere.

Speaker 24:51 He's forgotten where he's left it.

Victor Senapaty 24:52 Exactly.

Speaker 24:53 You've forgotten who you gave it to.

Victor Senapaty 24:54 Exactly.

Speaker 24:54 Yeah, it's gone. So then you're walking for the rest of the four and a half years.

Victor Senapaty 24:58 Yeah.

Speaker 24:58 Or three and a half years.

Victor Senapaty 24:59 Or you have to, you know, ask someone for a cycle, cycle all the way, or you have to haggle with an autorickshaw wala, which is-

Speaker 25:07 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 25:07 ... crazy.

Speaker 25:07 Which is a skill in itself.

Victor Senapaty 25:09 Yeah, yeah, which is-

Speaker 25:09 See, today, the kids don't learn that skill because there's Uber, Ola, and-

Victor Senapaty 25:13 Yeah

Speaker 25:13 ... Namma Yatri.

Victor Senapaty 25:14 Yes, yeah.

Speaker 25:15 Nice. Um, I think, uh, there's also, like, this id- I think what happens, b- you also went to Kota.

Speaker 25:23 You must have stayed away from home.

Victor Senapaty 25:24 Yeah.

Speaker 25:25 Um, so, uh, there's a, there's an experience you go through before IIT, right?

Victor Senapaty 25:29 Yeah.

Speaker 25:30 And then it's a really hard exam. You come here, whether it's to Madras or to any other campus. It's like a big sigh of relief, like, "This is done."

Victor Senapaty 25:39 True.

Speaker 25:40 And then I think, at least to me, the first one year I didn't do much at all-

Victor Senapaty 25:45 Yeah

Speaker 25:45 ... except just go for classes and do the bare minimum.

Victor Senapaty 25:47 Yeah.

Speaker 25:48 I think there's, there's a period of time that it takes to just recover from the JEE experience, [chuckles] right?

Victor Senapaty 25:54 Yeah.

Speaker 25:56 Yeah, I can imagine.

Victor Senapaty 25:57 I would, I would probably, you know, differ a little bit there. It's not the, you know, uh, uh, what do you call that? Like, the mental relaxation, uh, that I was looking for, at least in my case. It was not like I was mentally overwhelmed after preparing so much for IIT. It's more about, uh, uh, you know, an idea that I am right now, uh, you know, at the pinnacle, and there is nothing... What else is there to go?

Speaker 26:27 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 26:28 I think if that would've been shown a lot more, that, "Look, you're, you're at a great stepping point now-

Speaker 26:33 Mm

Victor Senapaty 26:34 ... and from here, there are great, awesome places that you can get to, uh, awesome things that you can build," I think things would've been a little more different.

Speaker 26:41 But you eventually started building, so what was the change in you from the, say, the first year, uh, Victor, to the, to the Astroworks Victor? What changed that you decided to build?

Victor Senapaty 26:54 That, uh, that was just a self-realization that hit me when, uh, I sat for placements in college. That's when I realized that, "Whoa, people have actually done, uh, done things. They've actually, uh, you know, improved a lot. They've, you know, explored many avenues, and, um, I could have also done the same." Uh, so that's when I decided that, uh, "Okay, so wherever I go next, whatever I, else I do in life, I'll sort of understand that, you know, I'm only at a stepping point, and there are a lot more, you know, great places to get to."

Speaker 27:29 Yeah. Very interesting. I think in JEE coaching days, this idea gets sold to you that, uh, the end goal is admission.

Victor Senapaty 27:37 Yes.

Speaker 27:38 Uh, but you are saying that there's- the end goal is not admission at all, like there's always something more and, and a further distance to go.

Victor Senapaty 27:46 Yeah, of course. I can understand why that end goal is sold at that point of time.

Speaker 27:51 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 27:52 At that point of time, people want you to put your 100%-

Speaker 27:55 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 27:55 ... in that. But then, even after that, I feel like if there's a counseling that's done, right when students come in, to tell them that, "Look, you were sold a lie." [chuckles]

Speaker 28:04 [chuckles] Half-truth.

Victor Senapaty 28:06 Yeah, half-truth-

Speaker 28:07 [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 28:08 ... uh, in nicer words.

Speaker 28:09 [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 28:09 "You're not, um, at an end goal now. You're at a beginning point, and it's a great beginning point. You have awesome, you know, peers and great alumnis who built great stuff. You have the best facilities in the country and probably in the world. You have all sorts of avenues, you know. Just go for it."

Speaker 28:29 Nice. Um, after college, uh, uh, you're talking about the placement-

Victor Senapaty 28:34 Yeah

Speaker 28:34 ... season, right?

Victor Senapaty 28:34 Yeah.

Speaker 28:34 And placement season is a very, uh-

Victor Senapaty 28:37 Super hectic.

Speaker 28:38 Super hectic, very stressful, uh-

Victor Senapaty 28:40 Yeah.

Speaker 28:40 First time you're meeting, uh, companies-

Victor Senapaty 28:42 Yeah

Speaker 28:42 ... first time you're re- writing a resume.

Victor Senapaty 28:44 Yeah.

Speaker 28:44 And, uh, it's not just you, right? The whole community is going through that exercise.

Victor Senapaty 28:48 Yeah.

Speaker 28:48 The whole of the final year batch is going through that exercise.

Victor Senapaty 28:50 Yeah.

Speaker 28:51 Uh, can you just, uh, run us through what that feels like, and what did you do after IIT?

Victor Senapaty 28:57 So, um, you know, you're, you're absolutely right. It's, it's probably the first time, uh, you're facing the external world. You're probably not prepared enough. Uh, suddenly, one day you start hearing from people that you have to start building resumes, you start doing... At least in our times, that used to happen, that, you know, you start, uh, doing a lot of consulting cases-

Speaker 29:18 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 29:19 ... uh, probably start learning a little bit of coding, and so on and so forth. Uh-

Speaker 29:23 Actually, um, it's very interesting you say that. It's the first time that you realize that you're going to be judged not on one parameter, but on some 10 different parameters.

Victor Senapaty 29:33 Yeah.

Speaker 29:33 Like, because JEE score is one score, and your CGPA is one number.

Victor Senapaty 29:37 It's very objective.

Speaker 29:37 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 29:37 You know exactly what to do.

Speaker 29:38 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 29:39 Uh, you know, here it's... You don't know really as in-

Speaker 29:42 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 29:43 I don't know how, probably, um, you know, probably the best, uh, probably people prepare for placements, uh, a month earlier, month before placements, and that's it. It's not like you know exactly what, uh, you're supposed to-

Speaker 29:56 Even if you did, every company has a different, uh, parameter.

Victor Senapaty 30:00 Yeah.

Speaker 30:00 So you prepare for one company's parameter, and then you're, [chuckles] you're not aligned to another company's requirements.

Victor Senapaty 30:05 Yeah. Yeah, that too. That too. And it's, it's a little lot more subjective. Um, you know, there's... You don't really know how much to go deep in something and, you know, a lot of things about, uh, how you come across, and-... you know, a lot more softer factors coming in-

Speaker 30:24 Mm

Victor Senapaty 30:25 -for the first time ever. Uh, earlier you were very methodical, uh, for JEE, right? As in these are numerical things. These are things you've been comfortable since-

Speaker 30:33 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 30:34 -as a kid, mathematical things.

Speaker 30:35 Yeah. Your language is also judged a lot.

Victor Senapaty 30:38 Exactly.

Speaker 30:38 How you're communicating, how you're dressing-

Victor Senapaty 30:40 Yeah

Speaker 30:40 ... how you're-

Victor Senapaty 30:41 Yeah

Speaker 30:41 -grooming yourself. It's suddenly a lot, right?

Victor Senapaty 30:43 Suddenly a lot.

Speaker 30:44 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 30:44 Yeah. So I remember, um, I was probably one of those guys who wasn't placed till, uh, my, probably the 10th day of placements, uh, probably a day at 10 or something, and I was super s- stressed.

Speaker 30:59 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 31:00 I felt as if the world is ending.

Speaker 31:02 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 31:02 Uh, so yeah, it's, it's a really stressful time.

Speaker 31:07 And then, then how did you

Speaker 31:09 move past that?

Victor Senapaty 31:11 I, um, you know, in my head, the way I moved past that is, look, I'm gonna see this now as something that I got to do. Uh, but once I get a job, which I did, over... You know, eventually everyone does. And, you know, uh, then I was like: Look, uh, you know, I should now, um, you know, rethink about whatever-

Speaker 31:36 Mm

Victor Senapaty 31:37 ... uh, mistakes I made earlier, which I told you about, right? Which is not really utilizing the opportunities that IIT gives you.

Speaker 31:44 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 31:45 Um-

Speaker 31:45 Which is, uh, I think there's a, there's a sentence I've heard that the mistakes we regret are less of commission and more of omission, things we didn't do-

Victor Senapaty 31:54 Yeah

Speaker 31:54 ... rather than-

Victor Senapaty 31:55 Yes

Speaker 31:55 ... the things we did.

Victor Senapaty 31:56 You're absolutely right. So that's when I decided that, look, I am going to do something which I want to do now, uh, which is I want to... You know, even if, uh, you know, I want to do a MBA, I want to get into the business world. I want to, you know, prepare for, uh, CAT and get to a really good college. And, you know, once I get there, [chuckles] I shouldn't stop and, you know-

Speaker 32:18 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 32:18 ... relax and feel like, "Oh, I've gotten here."

Speaker 32:20 So you s- you sat for placements. You're saying that it was a sort of a reality check for you in terms of how you approach-

Victor Senapaty 32:26 Mm

Speaker 32:26 ... uh, opportunities, right?

Victor Senapaty 32:28 Yeah.

Speaker 32:28 Um, after IIT, you did an MBA also?

Victor Senapaty 32:31 I did.

Speaker 32:32 So was it a different experience in your MBA?

Victor Senapaty 32:35 It was. It was.

Victor Senapaty 32:38 Uh, so, um, you know, uh, you know, as I told you, right, my, um, idea was that I'm going to fully utilize, uh, the platform that I'm given. Uh, so when I was in Delhi, when I was in FMS, uh, I made sure that, uh, uh, you know, if I enjoyed finance, I went, uh, you know, I went my, out of my way, I went out of academics and did a lot of finance projects, get into a lot of finance, uh, you know, sort of global competitions. Uh, so yeah, as in it was quite interesting. As in I enjoyed... I re-enjoyed the learning process that used to be there pre, uh, getting into IIT.

Speaker 33:28 JEE days. Mm.

Victor Senapaty 33:29 J- JEE days, right, as in the wonder and the fun of learning, and learning something new, and getting really deep into that and, you know, uh, really getting into the core, uh, trenches of it.

Speaker 33:42 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 33:43 Uh, so yeah, that's what I did.

Speaker 33:44 Okay. I think there's a gap in my understanding, is basically from how did you move from being, uh, Awakened Victor? [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 33:52 Yeah.

Speaker 33:53 Uh, Victor 2.0 to the startup Victor.

Victor Senapaty 33:56 Yeah, so that was a part of being awakened.

Speaker 33:59 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 33:59 Yeah.

Speaker 34:00 So after FMS, did you do a job or did you start up immediately?

Victor Senapaty 34:04 No, so I didn't know so much about, um, entrepreneurship back then when I was in, uh, FMS. My dream was to get into one of the best finance jobs, uh, into an investment banking job, and that's what I got in. So I joined an investment, investment banking firm. Um, it was apparently the dream that I really wanted to, uh, get to. But then, uh, once I started working, that's when, uh, you know, I sort of did not really enjoy, uh, the work, uh, as much as I had built it up in my head. Uh, I used to think that the job is gonna be really exciting and, you know, intellectually stimulating, and the sort of, uh, finance knowledge that I had, uh, I'm gonna be able to use that. But, um, I realized that, uh, like in any traditional sort of industry, uh, probably you have to go through a lot of-

Speaker 34:59 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 35:00 ... uh, you know, uh, period where you're doing a lot of not-so-great, not-so-intellectually-stimulating work, make yourself visible, uh, prove your worth to the organization, and-

Speaker 35:12 Then, then you get those.

Victor Senapaty 35:14 Then you get those sort of stuff. And I was too impatient for that.

Speaker 35:17 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 35:18 Uh, so I thought-

Speaker 35:19 No, I echo with this. I, I started my career in Hindustan Lever. I left in 15 months-

Victor Senapaty 35:23 Yeah

Speaker 35:23 ... because I felt like, "Okay, "..." but the idea was also that it'll take me many years-

Victor Senapaty 35:30 Yeah

Speaker 35:31 ... to really do much.

Victor Senapaty 35:32 Yeah.

Speaker 35:32 But when I look back, I feel like I left too soon. I should have stayed for a little longer, crystallize my learnings a bit more.

Victor Senapaty 35:38 Yeah.

Speaker 35:39 Very in- Like, that sense of impatience-

Victor Senapaty 35:41 Yeah

Speaker 35:41 ... I felt.

Victor Senapaty 35:42 Uh.

Speaker 35:42 I can echo when you say this sentence, that there was a sense of impatience. I, I, I can, I can say- I mean, I went through that, too.

Victor Senapaty 35:50 Yeah. As in, I don't feel that impatience from a point that, uh, I have ever felt that I should contin- I should have continued.

Speaker 35:58 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 35:59 I never feel that I should have continued. Uh, I think it was the right impatient-

Speaker 36:04 Okay

Victor Senapaty 36:05 ... uh, you know? I wasn't really learning.

Speaker 36:07 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 36:07 Uh, you know, it was, uh-

Speaker 36:10 Very interesting, okay.

Victor Senapaty 36:12 Yeah.

Speaker 36:12 So then you moved on to Astroworks, and then to StockUp, and then to, uh, Pristine Cart, and then to Propelld.

Victor Senapaty 36:17 Correct.

Speaker 36:18 What an exciting journey! Um, can I ask you, uh... Can you give us a sense of your co-founders' journeys as well? Are they similar?

Victor Senapaty 36:27 ... Um, one of them, yes, uh, you know, Brijesh's journey is very similar. That's because he got influenced a lot by me.

Speaker 36:34 [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 36:35 Uh, so, you know, when I was, um, in, um, after FMS, when I was in the investment banking firm, uh, Brijesh, after doing his MBA- Brijesh, by the way, Brijesh did his MBA from IIT Madras.

Speaker 36:46 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 36:47 From DoMS. So after that, he had also joined a, you know, banking firm, and, uh, we used to always discuss about ideas, uh, that, "Hey, we should, we should do something, uh, we should build something," when we were in our jobs. And, um, after I left, I did Astroworks on my own. He continued in his bank, uh, banking, uh, firm. Then when I started StockUp-

Speaker 37:10 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 37:10 -uh, I pitched him the idea of StockUp. Um, you know, he thought it's really exciting. Um, and yeah, he probably, you know, neither I nor [chuckles] he probably really understood how much water we were in.

Speaker 37:26 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 37:27 Uh, but I guess that's how you do it.

Speaker 37:29 If entrepreneurs knew how tough it is [chuckles] on day one, they would probably never start.

Victor Senapaty 37:34 They wouldn't.

Speaker 37:35 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 37:35 That's something I definitely agree with you, as in, uh, yeah. I think, you know, you also asked me about, uh, my co-founders, right?

Speaker 37:44 Oh, yeah.

Victor Senapaty 37:44 I should probably talk about Bibhu, too. Um, no, but Bibhu had a much more traditional, uh, sort of, journey. Uh, he, uh, after, uh, IIT, he, he got placed, uh, in, uh, Credit Suisse. Uh, so he was doing that high-flying job right after IIT, uh, for a couple of years. Uh, and then he was, uh, he did his MBA from IIM Calcutta. Uh, then he was again working at a, um, you know, investment banking firm, uh, out of Delhi, and he was doing some great work, as in he was actually doing real quality work. Uh, the finance work that I was telling you about, he was actually doing that.

Speaker 38:24 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 38:25 And he did that for a decent period of time, um, until, uh, the startup... I should say, that the startup bug also bit him, because we were staying at his place, uh, and that's when that idea came for Propelld as well, and, you know, we started that. So he didn't have that sort of a journey. It's, it's been a different journey for him.

Speaker 38:45 Yeah. Nice.

Speaker 38:47 Uh, I remember you talking about this earlier, about, um, uh, sort of, uh, piloting education loans in a small way before really going into Propelld in a big way.

Victor Senapaty 38:58 Yeah.

Speaker 38:59 Uh, can you give us that story as well?

Victor Senapaty 39:01 Uh, so when we started, we, um, uh, you know, we, uh, picked up our phone and started calling a lot of institutes, uh, that whether they would want a product like this. Uh, you know, of course, we heard probably like, you know, a lot of nos, but there was just one guy out of, uh, Calcutta. He was running a- He had come from the US, so he had an understanding. He was a little more forward-looking than a lot of other people.

Speaker 39:27 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 39:27 He could see the potential of a product like this. Um, other people were thinking of it from a point of, uh, what is right now available in the market and not seeing a future version of it. Um, so he invited us to Calcutta. We used to, you know, work out of his institute. Uh, and, you know, we, we started, uh, our product there, where me and Brijesh used to go and speak to the students and, uh, build a product for them, understand their needs.

Speaker 39:56 Y- You're saying this is a product where, uh, you're sort of, uh, uh, evaluating the credit risk based on the-

Victor Senapaty 40:04 Institute

Speaker 40:04 ... the course and the student?

Victor Senapaty 40:06 Student.

Speaker 40:06 Student's course.

Victor Senapaty 40:07 Yeah. So it, it was very simple for us because we were present at that institute.

Speaker 40:11 Yeah, it's one institute.

Victor Senapaty 40:12 Yeah, it's one institute, right? And that's how probably you start. Because we were there at that institute, we understood the quality of the promoter, what he really brings to the table, uh, the teachers that are there, the kind of students that are coming in, their ambitions- the ambitions of those students, the pedigree of those students. So we understood really, uh, what's going on there, and we were a lot more comfortable in, uh, giving out loans there. The loans were also very small amounts as compared to traditional education loans. Uh, this was not a traditional degree. This was a, uh, you know, this was a course, this was a, uh-

Speaker 40:48 Upskilling course.

Victor Senapaty 40:48 ... upskilling course, right, in data science and-

Speaker 40:52 Nice.

Victor Senapaty 40:52 Yeah.

Speaker 40:53 So from that one institute, today you are present in how many institutes?

Victor Senapaty 40:57 I'd say more than probably close to around, uh, 600, 700 institutes. I-

Speaker 41:03 Nice

Victor Senapaty 41:04 ... would have to come back on the exact numbers.

Speaker 41:05 And also, you have sort of moved from upskilling to higher ed-

Victor Senapaty 41:09 Yeah

Speaker 41:09 ... uh, coursework. So I have a question here. Uh, in this journey of, uh... I mean, your personal journey is very interesting. Uh, uh, we spoke till Propelld, and, and even in Propelld, going from one institute to so many institutes, hundreds of institutes, and one loan to lacks of loans, uh, say, 1 crore AUM to 1000 crore AUM, how has the organization changed? How have you changed as a person? What are the transformation that's happened? Like, if you look at Victor from six

Speaker 41:40 years back-

Victor Senapaty 41:41 Yeah

Speaker 41:41 ... how different a person that was?

Victor Senapaty 41:43 There's a, there's a massive difference, right? As in, the org obviously grew from, uh, you know, as small as just the three of us, uh, pitching the idea to, you know, a bunch of people in our first accelerator program, to, uh, setting up our office, uh, which is probably a, you know, 10 by 10 square feet, uh, you know, room, where there are about six or seven people, uh, to the point now where we are close to around 300, 350 odd team. Uh, so yeah, uh, you know, in terms of, um, you know, personally, I would say personally and professionally, um, the, you know, the- a lot of changes in me have been with respect to, uh, how do you-... see signals, how do you understand signals, uh, from noise? Um, how do you differentiate between signals and noise, and, um, how do you zero down on your top three signals? How do you optimize and focus the org's effort in a, uh, you know, in one direction?

Speaker 42:54 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 42:54 Um, how do you figure out opportunities? Which are the opportunities which are more long-term, uh, and how do you balance the long-term, uh, you know, durable value building versus something very short-term and tactical? Uh, people management-

Speaker 43:13 Very interesting.

Victor Senapaty 43:14 Okay.

Speaker 43:14 So what you are saying is that one of the biggest things that you have gained over the last few, uh, maybe six, seven years, is your ability to sort of understand which- what to listen to, what not to listen to, what to, what to prioritize, what to take as a strong input, and what to keep, uh, aside.

Victor Senapaty 43:32 I would also... You know, tha- that's correct. I would also add, uh, you know, how do you sort of become an org, which is, which is to say that how do you row in one direction and, you know, so the structure around that, the people around that, and how does that entire mass of, uh, so many people s- you know, look in one direction? Uh...

Speaker 43:59 Fair enough. When you're starting off, you have a visibility of maybe one or two years. Now, you probably as an org, you have a visibility of 10 years or 20 years, what Propelld wants to be in 2030, 2040-

Victor Senapaty 44:09 Yeah

Speaker 44:09 ... sort of like a end vision kind of thinking.

Victor Senapaty 44:12 Correct. You're absolutely right. It starts opening up way more as you put yourself out there.

Speaker 44:18 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 44:18 Uh, as you start taking those, you know, you've, you've, you're absolutely right, you know just 10 steps. As you start taking those, you know, three, four steps, the step from 10 to 100 probably starts opening up, so.

Speaker 44:31 Can you, um... I, I mean, uh, you would've had a parallel journey in terms of- Actually, before I get to that, I have a question that's coming up, which in my mind, which is that, of course, the pandemic meant different things to different

Speaker 44:44 people-

Victor Senapaty 44:44 Yeah

Speaker 44:44 ... but for lending companies, for fintech companies-

Victor Senapaty 44:48 Yeah

Speaker 44:48 ... it was like a, you know, a hammer, a sword, and-

Victor Senapaty 44:52 Yes

Speaker 44:52 ... how, how did you, how, how was your, uh, how was your pandemic story? [chuckles]

Victor Senapaty 44:57 It's very, it's very interesting, um, uh, you know, that you brought that up, right? So actually, it, it was, it was actually quite the opposite for us. Uh, we grew massively during the pandemic. Uh, you know, the traditional, um, you know, the traditional sort of, uh, knowledge or the traditional gut instinct, uh, was that every lending company is suffering because people are not repaying back their loans, which was very natural because, you know-

Speaker 45:29 Businesses have stopped.

Victor Senapaty 45:30 Businesses have stopped.

Speaker 45:32 Salaries have stopped.

Victor Senapaty 45:32 Salaries have stopped. Uh, you know, there's a lot more at stake right now for people than repaying back their EMIs. A lot more-

Speaker 45:39 Absolutely

Victor Senapaty 45:39 ... for life is, yeah, way more, uh-

Speaker 45:42 Precious

Victor Senapaty 45:43 ... precious and, you know, a lot more fundamental things at stake now. Um, but in fact, um, you know, we, you know, uh, we have always had, as I told you, right, we've always had that belief that education is an investment. And, um, our belief was that in a period like this, people, uh, when people don't have a lot of visibility on what's going to happen, uh, they're actually going to invest a lot more in educating themselves. Um, you know, after taking care of their life and, you know, being safe, uh, the investment in education in terms of, if not money, at least their attention, and how much they really value education, is going to go up a lot more as compared to coming down.

Speaker 46:27 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 46:27 And our thesis always has been fundamentally that, you know, people who are invested, uh, you know, there's a lot more intent, and of course, the ability will also come in the future.

Speaker 46:38 But this is a very- I mean, of course, looking in retrospect, we know that people invested more in courses, they studied more. So much data that now says that, uh, mm, people used the pandemic as a way to upskill themselves. But going into the pandemic, this is a very contrarian view, right?

Victor Senapaty 46:55 It is.

Speaker 46:56 In, in one month down into the pandemic, nobody was saying that people will study more.

Victor Senapaty 47:01 It is, but historically, if you look at it, right-

Speaker 47:03 Mm

Victor Senapaty 47:04 ... uh, at, uh, any crisis that comes in, where there's a job crisis or an economic crisis, historically, that's been the trend, though.

Speaker 47:12 That's very interesting. But how were your internal conversations? How were your boardroom conversations, uh, with respect to this decision of you to double down, uh, during the pandemic?

Victor Senapaty 47:22 So naturally, the boardroom conversations, um, uh, you know, were, uh, hard, uh, I should say. And, um, you know, of course, our investors ended up supporting us, but they were, you know, sort of hard conversations to have with. But, uh, you know, uh, there were, there were questions of, "When everybody else is sort of, uh, running the tap down, uh, why are you turning it on even more?" Um, and uh, but then we had our conviction and our thesis on that, and, you know, uh, uh, finally the, you know, boardroom also was convinced that that's a right way to go about it.

Speaker 48:07 Mm, okay, but it's one thing to convince the boardroom. But did your, did your NPA hold?

Victor Senapaty 48:13 It did.

Speaker 48:14 Okay.

Victor Senapaty 48:14 Uh, you know, if it wouldn't have, then, um, uh, you know, the board would have said that, you know, we did the wrong decision in going in there. But, um, yeah, that's, that's actually the proof of the pudding-

Speaker 48:25 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 48:26 ... uh, in a lending business.

Speaker 48:27 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 48:27 So it was- it's not about us getting market share.

Speaker 48:30 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 48:30 So what happened there is, we had a few competitors back then who were, uh, you know, s- funded by, uh, you know-... uh, larger-

Speaker 48:41 Larger

Victor Senapaty 48:41 -VCs, and they'd probably raised 10X more money than us, and, um, you know, they had the larger market share. We actually used that point to, uh, you know, actually leapfrog, and after that we became the number one player there, and we've continued to sort of maintain that position. And the proof of, uh, you know, in lending, because we are in the business of evaluating risk and making sure our NPAs are low, was at six months later, 12 months later, our NPAs continued to be the same way.

Speaker 49:13 Very interesting. In fact, I'm just, uh, remembering that I've read lenders say that lending the, the challenge is not in lending, but in take- getting the money back.

Victor Senapaty 49:21 Yeah, correct.

Speaker 49:22 Uh, and so NPA is the big, uh, metric of whether you're doing a good job.

Victor Senapaty 49:26 So the way we, the way we think about lending is that you're in the business of evaluating and buying risk.

Speaker 49:32 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 49:32 So y- if you don't take any risk at all, you're not going, going to have your rewards, or you're not going to-

Speaker 49:39 Right

Victor Senapaty 49:39 ... make money as well. Uh, if you take stupid risks, uh, if you take the wrong risks, you are, uh, you know, going to be, uh, punished by the industry. Uh, so you have to just understand how do you evaluate risk and how do you buy that risk?

Speaker 49:54 The other thing that's coming to mind is that this is a very, like a very pivotal moment in a, a business and a category.

Victor Senapaty 50:01 Yeah.

Speaker 50:02 There are multiple players in a category.

Victor Senapaty 50:03 Yeah.

Speaker 50:04 A systemic shock has hit the category.

Victor Senapaty 50:06 True.

Speaker 50:06 Some people have entered the category because they think it's a opportunity, right? You have entered the category because you believe in a core thesis.

Victor Senapaty 50:14 Correct.

Speaker 50:14 And your value system, your belief in the core thesis, will really show up at the time of a crisis.

Victor Senapaty 50:21 Absolutely.

Speaker 50:21 And so if there's an external crisis and the others are like, "Oh, this is too risky"-

Victor Senapaty 50:25 Yeah

Speaker 50:25 ... but you are saying that, "I really believe in this-

Victor Senapaty 50:28 Yeah

Speaker 50:28 -and I think that from a first principles point of view, this is actually a better time for us-

Victor Senapaty 50:34 Yes

Speaker 50:34 ... uh, to increase our, uh, uh, our, our lending or our product reach."

Victor Senapaty 50:40 You're absolutely right, and that's exactly how it has happened. So, you know, uh, when we entered, there was a lot of interest in this industry, naturally-

Speaker 50:48 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 50:49 ... because, you know, education is a very large use case. It can't be ignored. It's a high- it's a, it's a big part of a consumer's wallet in India. Uh, and it's very under-penetrated with respect to financing.

Speaker 51:01 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 51:01 So a lot of people were looking at it, but you're absolutely right, that's the way people were looking at it, as another sort of, you know, side opportunity.

Speaker 51:09 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 51:09 But for us, it was a very core thesis, and, um, yeah, that actually showed up. And, uh, when we did that, we actually earned a lot of, uh, respect and trust of the industry as well-

Speaker 51:22 Mm

Victor Senapaty 51:23 ... uh, which holds good, uh, even now. People understand that it's during the crisis that we have actually been there. So another, um, you know, another pivotal point just, you know, just to add on here, another pivotal point which has happened with us has been, uh, the BYJU'S meltdown. Uh, you know, I'm not sure if I'm supposed to-

Speaker 51:44 Please go ahead

Victor Senapaty 51:45 ... name, right? But yeah, so, um, you know, because you have a very large, uh, you know, large funded-

Speaker 51:53 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 51:54 ... the big blue-eyed boy-

Speaker 51:55 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 51:56 ... uh, in the tech industry.

Speaker 51:57 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 51:58 Uh, uh, BYJU'S success or failure sort of, uh, defined the entire ecosystem. There are a lot of people niche, right? As in, if BYJU'S would've been really successful, a lot more money would've come in, into edtech.

Speaker 52:12 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 52:12 When BYJU'S meltdown happened, uh, it actually took away a lot of, uh, trust of the lending ecosystem in education as a industry.

Speaker 52:25 Because you're saying that, uh, maybe parents or customers, um, said that, "Oh, the lenders have forced this product on us," or, "The product was not great in the first place," or something like that?

Victor Senapaty 52:35 Exactly. As in, it's- so basically, what happened there is, uh, of course, the products, as in everybody... All of us know, right? As in the products were sold a lot, mis-sold a lot as well. People didn't really know what they were getting into. Uh, and, you know, a lot of, uh, you know, uh, lenders had seen that as an opportunity and gotten in.

Speaker 52:57 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 52:58 Uh, but then when it stopped working, the large lenders who, you know, lost a lot of money, you know, I've- I, I know lenders who have suffered from close to around 20% NPAs on their BYJU'S portfolio, which has been 50% of their, uh-

Speaker 53:14 Entire AUM

Victor Senapaty 53:15 ... overall dispersals and overall AUM. That's significant, right? You can't come back from there. It's very hard to come back from there.

Speaker 53:21 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 53:21 So as an industry, the lending industry then sort of saw the education industry again in a very negative light.

Speaker 53:29 Are you saying that at that point, your original thesis of looking at the course-

Victor Senapaty 53:33 Yeah

Speaker 53:34 ... and evaluating the course suddenly became more important?

Victor Senapaty 53:37 Yes, because we had no exposure in BYJU'S. We continued to do the things that we were doing. So we never had exposure in BYJU'S, because we never understood the product. We never understood, uh, how it's beneficial for a parent. We never went in there. So the institutes that we were supporting, and the institutes, and the students going to those particular institutes and courses that we were funding, we continued to double down while the industry, you know, finance, the entire lending industry took a back seat. Uh, so again, sort of, you know, delivering on that, uh, thesis that, you know, on, on our core thesis, on our core principles, and, you know, that was also another pivotal point for us.

Speaker 54:18 That is very interesting. Let me, let me say it in my words. Tell me if I'm right.

Victor Senapaty 54:22 Sure.

Speaker 54:22 Uh, if you're the CEO of a lending industry and, uh, you are responsible for growth-

Victor Senapaty 54:27 Yes

Speaker 54:27 ... which means that you can only grow if you take a certain amount of risk, uh, you give out more loans. If you grow too slowly, then that's not good. If you grow too fast, that's not good. Um, you want to, as you said earlier, buy risk.

Victor Senapaty 54:39 Correct.

Speaker 54:40 And your method of buying risk is to evaluate the course.

Victor Senapaty 54:42 Correct.

Speaker 54:43 Uh, but maybe somebody else who is, uh, under pressure to grow would see that this opportunity of-... a, a fast and upcoming course which has become very popular.

Victor Senapaty 54:52 Mm.

Speaker 54:53 Um, and they're seeing that, "Oh, we can ride along with that course. We'll end up growing our portfolio."

Victor Senapaty 54:58 Mm.

Speaker 54:59 Uh, they put some money there-

Victor Senapaty 55:01 Mm

Speaker 55:01 ... uh, because an opportunity for them to grow fast.

Victor Senapaty 55:04 Mm.

Speaker 55:04 Uh, but you didn't do that because that didn't match with your core thesis.

Victor Senapaty 55:08 Mm.

Speaker 55:09 Uh, and you had taken a sort of a, sort of a, a, a, a view of the industry-

Victor Senapaty 55:14 Mm

Speaker 55:14 ... and that didn't match your view, so you sort of averted that crisis.

Victor Senapaty 55:18 Mm.

Speaker 55:18 Uh, and therefore, again, your value system, your core-

Victor Senapaty 55:21 Mm

Speaker 55:21 ... thesis, uh, benefited you in a big way.

Victor Senapaty 55:24 Correct. I'll just rephrase a few pieces, right? So in, in, um, uh, lending, we feel that our job is to, uh, build trust of financial services, of lenders-

Speaker 55:41 Mm

Victor Senapaty 55:42 ... in a particular ecosystem. For us, for that matter, is education as an ecosystem or education as an industry, our job is to build trust of lenders in the education ecosystem, in, uh, that industry.

Speaker 55:56 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 55:56 How do we build trust? We build trust by being very, um, you know, by showing to the lenders that we can price that risk and we can buy that risk really well. We know how to understand, uh, which risk is a good risk and which risk is a bad risk, and there is a way of doing it.

Speaker 56:17 Mm.

Victor Senapaty 56:18 And so you guys should also be open about that. That's when that money flows in, and that's when that, you know, industry actually gets that, you know, people, uh, lenders opening up their purses, uh, for either institutes or for students, learners, parents, and so on.

Speaker 56:34 Very interesting. Let me ask you a question then. So two crisis we spoke about.

Victor Senapaty 56:37 Yeah.

Speaker 56:38 One crisis helped you accelerate-

Victor Senapaty 56:39 Yeah

Speaker 56:39 ... and one crisis helped you prevent a sort of, uh, a pitfall. Like, you could have fallen into a well, but you didn't. Um, uh, uh, now that these two things have happened and everybody else is looking at you, are you seeing more lenders follow the method that you have adopted? Uh, have you become like, a, a company that everybody else is copying?

Victor Senapaty 56:59 So,

Victor Senapaty 57:00 um, there are some people who, of course, uh, you know, who are, uh, you know, uh, making inroads in this industry as well, in the education industry, and we feel that it's a great thing as in-

Speaker 57:12 Mm

Victor Senapaty 57:13 ... it's a huge market. It's-

Speaker 57:14 Yeah, I mean-

Victor Senapaty 57:15 It's close to a $100 billion market, and we're not, we're not a consumer tech play.

Speaker 57:20 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 57:20 Uh, we're not going to be two people, uh, or duopoly sort of working in that industry.

Speaker 57:25 Yeah.

Victor Senapaty 57:25 Uh, lending does not work that way. As in, in lending, uh, you care about your profits, you care about your risk, you care about your liabilities, and, you know... So there can be 10 pe- 10 players here, and the industry is going to benefit from that. So yeah, we are seeing a few people come in, uh-

Speaker 57:43 Nice

Victor Senapaty 57:43 ... after our experience.

Speaker 57:44 Nice. So your thesis is being proven by multiple, uh... A- and what you were saying earlier, that you want to influence the industry to follow a more trustworthy model, that's being-

Victor Senapaty 57:54 Yeah, exactly. As in, apart from, you know, apart from the fact that what we got, uh, what we achieved from those moments where growths, uh, you know, where growth, uh, in both of those moments, right? And what we achieved from there is a lot of trust of that industry partners on Propelld, that Propelld is a long-term player, and they really understand the education ecosystem, and they are not just somebody or they are not just-

Speaker 58:18 Right

Victor Senapaty 58:18 ... some other, other person.

Speaker 58:19 Very interesting. Thank you for sharing. I also want to ask you, uh, you are the first guest we have had from a fintech background.

Victor Senapaty 58:26 Yeah.

Speaker 58:26 Um, so the question I want to ask you is: How has fintech

Speaker 58:30 or lending or credit risk or underwriting, all these topics, how have they changed in the last 14, 15 years, given that, you know, we've had sort of like a digital revolution, and where's the role of tech in all of this?

Victor Senapaty 58:41 We play in a highly regulated, uh, industry. It's, it's regulated for the right reasons. Um, you know, uh, we've, we've seen, uh... You must have followed a lot of, uh, you know, cases where there were a lot of, you know, illegal apps and, you know, sort of illegal ways of collections and, you know, Chinese apps and so on, right? So there's a reason it's highly regulated. So, um, I think I'll first speak about, uh, you know, the transition that has happened from a mindset point of view. Uh, I feel like, um, there are, uh, there have been three phases from a regulation point of view, which has influenced what kind of business models, uh, you know, entrepreneurs and investors have also looked at it. Um, there was a first phase, uh, you know, which was, uh, probably around the time of, uh, uh, wait, uh, close to around '16, say, '18 or '19 ke aas pass. So, uh, you know, from 2016 to, to say 2019, when things were opening up a lot more. As in, um, you know, there were a lot of, lot more digital rails infrastructure that were opening up. Uh, you know, eKYC was opening up. RBI wanted things to be a lot more smoother. RBI wanted a lot of financ- financial penetration. They were giving out licenses for P2Ps. Uh, they were trying out different means of raising money. P2P is, you know, is a different way of raising money from traditional, instead of traditional sort of sources. Um, now that really helped, uh, and, you know, a lot of fintechs, a lot of entrepreneurs, a lot of VCs came in. The prevalent thought process then was to have, um, you know, business models which are more fintech, which would look at lending from a extremely scalable, sort of like a consumer play, and value it that way. Uh, but then, uh, slowly, you know, once after a wave of that, uh, it also gave birth to a lot of these illegal apps. Uh, and that's when-... uh, there came a phase of clamping down on them. And so, you know, RBI's regulations became changed, and, you know, they wanted things in a much more closed, uh, loop, in a closed sort of ecosystem, and they brought in a lot of checks and balances and processes, uh, which of course, helped the consumer. Um, but then what that led to do was, what that led to happen was that, uh, the mindset of the business model and the mindset of entrepreneurs and VCs, uh, y- you know, investors, uh, it started changing towards business models which are way more traditional. Uh, the way NBFCs have sort of, uh, you know, the business model similar to an NBFC, which is run in the past. Uh, so-

Speaker 1:01:37 Sure. It opened up a lot because of digital, uh, like a quick wave of digitalization.

Victor Senapaty 1:01:42 Correct.

Speaker 1:01:42 And then, sort of, uh, we realized that there's a lot of NPA or whatever. There was a lot of, uh, high, high-interest lending-

Victor Senapaty 1:01:49 Yeah

Speaker 1:01:50 ... lot of errors happened, and then it sort of came back to an older model.

Victor Senapaty 1:01:55 To an older model, from a business model point of view. So now, what happened was, um, from a tech point of view, the way people think about it is that the business model continues to be a, you know, an NBFC or a financial services business model, the way it has been there in the past or the way public, uh, you know, publicly listed NBFCs and banks are sort of looked at. But then how do you now use tech to do those things, but way better and way more efficient? That's how things are right now. It's not a, you know, ear- the earlier model was more about, um, you know, using, uh, sort of like a consumer game and, you know, uh, lending being like a consumer game, and tech being seen that way. Uh, but here it's more about, you know, you understood, right? As in-

Speaker 1:02:42 Yeah

Victor Senapaty 1:02:43 ... the business model continues to be the same.

Speaker 1:02:44 There was a phase when you were saying every app is a fintech. I remember that-

Victor Senapaty 1:02:49 Yes

Speaker 1:02:49 ... uh, wave where-

Victor Senapaty 1:02:50 Yes.

Speaker 1:02:50 Uh, that wave-

Victor Senapaty 1:02:51 Yes

Speaker 1:02:51 ... is gone, you're saying?

Victor Senapaty 1:02:52 Yes.

Speaker 1:02:52 It's sort of dialed back to an older model, but much better driven and more efficient because of a high use of tech.

Victor Senapaty 1:03:00 Correct. Like, for example, if I talk about how, uh, you know, uh, we look at using tech, right? So look, for us, core pieces of using tech are on two areas. One is the entire heart of our

Victor Senapaty 1:03:15 risk and credit, uh, which is to say: how do we, uh, evaluate, uh, institutions? How do we evaluate risk? How do we monitor that? How do we build triggers? How can we make it, uh, an experimentative, uh, you know, learn, test hypothesis, you know, uh, learn from that, iterate and, you know, build models, uh, that sort of a thing. And a lot into sort of how do we build more efficiencies and, you know, sort of bring in a lot of value, you know, in the processing piece of it, uh, in the running of the company piece of it, so that, you know, that value can then be given back to the customers or to the institute. So those are the primary pieces that we use, uh, you know, technology for, core pieces for that.

Speaker 1:04:02 Nice. And that you're saying that, that this is the norm now, this is the way-

Victor Senapaty 1:04:05 This is the norm now.

Speaker 1:04:06 This is the way in the industry.

Victor Senapaty 1:04:07 Uh, yeah, as in-

Speaker 1:04:09 Nice.

Victor Senapaty 1:04:10 Yeah.

Speaker 1:04:10 Okay, very nice. Uh, you've shared a lot with us, uh, about your own journey, about your company's journey. Uh, and thank you for being so open. I know that you're in a regulated space, and it's not, it's not easy for, um, for fintechs to share so much, but thank you so much for us, we learned a lot. Um, if you're watching this podcast, um, uh, share, like, subscribe. If you want to follow what Victor does or what his companies does, you can find them online, uh, you can find them on LinkedIn. Thank you.

Victor Senapaty 1:04:38 Thanks for having me here again, Jipesh.