Nawabs, N*des & Noodles to AI in Marketing: Ambi Parameswaran's Marketing Gyaan | BP2B S2 Ep.1

1. 0:00 – 1:55

   Introduction & Setting the Stage

   1. APAmbi Parameswaran0:00

      Through my career, I worked across multiple brands. I mean, for about 15 years I worked on the Tata Motors business, the Tata Indica, Tata Indigo campaign. Then I worked on a brand of soap called, uh, Santoor. I worked on, uh, Sunfeast. I worked on Sundrop, which is a cooking oil business. Brand is a name with a story. [chuckles]

   2. SPSpeaker0:21

      The topic that's top on everyone's mind, uh, how has AI impacted marketing?

   3. APAmbi Parameswaran0:26

      So that calls for a sip of water.

   4. SPSpeaker0:28

      [laughing] Hi, this is Amrit. We are at IIT Madras, my alma mater, and India's top university for people who like to build. We are here to meet some builders, ask them: what are you building? What does it take to build? And what makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music] Okay, welcome to the Best Place to Build Podcast. This is the second season. First episode, we have a great episode lined up. Uh, we are sitting with Ambi Parameswaran, a marketing guru. Um, I, you know, I wanna say that I wanted to sit down with you and chat with you from the first time we met on a call, I think maybe four, five years back.

   5. APAmbi Parameswaran1:20

      Yeah.

   6. SPSpeaker1:21

      Um, and I think the topic of discussion on that call was, uh, perception for IIT Madras itself, and whether IIT Madras should or what they could do about it. Uh, welcome to the podcast.

   7. APAmbi Parameswaran1:32

      No, thank you. Thank you, Amrit, for inviting me on the podcast, and it's wonderful that we are recording it at this, uh, venue with the Sangam event.

   8. SPSpeaker1:42

      Yeah, so we are recording today... Uh, it's a, it's a departure for us. We normally record at the Centre for Innovation. Today, we are recording at, uh, at the Taj in Bangalore at IIT Madras Alumni Association's

2. 1:55 – 3:12

   Distinguished Alumni & Early Influences

   1. SPSpeaker1:55

      annual flagship event, Sangam. Um, IIT Madras Alumni Association, one of the most powerful alumni associations of the country, and, uh, Sangam attracts people from all classes and all walks of life. Uh, I can see on the schedule there is Kris Gopalakrishnan, Srinivasan, and Somanath. A lot of startup people, a lot of, um, VCs, um, a lot of professors are speaking, Professor Kama, uh, Professor Mohan, Professor Ravindran, who by the way, have also come to the podcast, so really exciting. And I know you are speaking tomorrow, uh, for your new book. Um, yeah, grateful that, uh, Sangam is allowing us to do this. We are actually here before the event starts. Uh, right, the event starts in two hours, and over 1,000 people are expected, so.

   2. APAmbi Parameswaran2:36

      Wow, uh, that's amazing. I mean, it, it's, it's very tough to organize these events and get audience, and I think IIT Madras Alumni Association done a great job, you know, having this, like, clockwork every year.

   3. SPSpeaker2:51

      Yeah.

   4. APAmbi Parameswaran2:52

      Uh, I think three years ago I did a workshop on brand, uh, basics of branding at one of the events, I think Chennai Sangam three years ago. Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker3:03

      Yeah. Nice. So I know where I want to start. You are a distinguished alumnus of IIT Madras, and if I look at the list of distinguished alumnus, uh,

3. 3:12 – 8:26

   Ambi's Career Journey Through Advertising and Marketing

   1. SPSpeaker3:12

      you're probably the only person who's from a marketing advertising background. Very curious to know, um, are there any other IITM alumnus who made it big in this field?

   2. APAmbi Parameswaran3:22

      Oh, well, I think, uh, definitely there are, right? Uh, the two of my friends are in that list. There is, of course, Bhaskar Bhat, who is a former CEO of Titan, who cut his teeth in marketing and then went on to become-

   3. SPSpeaker3:35

      Mm

   4. APAmbi Parameswaran3:35

      ... CEO of the company. The other person, uh, who got the distinguished alumnus about four years ago, uh, is Anand Kripalu. Again, Anand Kripalu is an IIT Madras, IAM Calcutta alumnus like me, cut his teeth in Unilever, and then went on to become the CEO of Mondelez, and then Diageo, and then now he's a CEO of EPL. So he's again, largely a marketing guy. So I can think of three. I'm sure there are many more. I mean, they might have got a distinguished alumnus when they have the chapa for-

   5. SPSpeaker4:09

      Correct, yeah

   6. APAmbi Parameswaran4:10

      ... CEO or MD, but many of them have actually traveled the, the marketing route, uh, you know, and, and gone up the hierarchy. So I can think of two. I'm sure there are many more.

   7. SPSpeaker4:22

      Yeah, I suppose you're right. Um, can I ask, um, how do you... So just to give the audience a context, you were leading FCB Ulka for, I think, a decade and a half, maybe. Um, one of India's top advertising firms, lots of brands, uh, that you have worked on and your team has worked on. Uh, you've won multiple awards, you've written multiple books. You've also taught at B School, so really, um, guru is the word, right? [chuckles]

   8. APAmbi Parameswaran4:46

      No, no, guru is too much of a word, but veteran-

   9. SPSpeaker4:48

      I, I do-

   10. APAmbi Parameswaran4:49

       Veteran is a more neutral word.

   11. SPSpeaker4:50

       Veteran. [chuckles] Okay. I do occasionally open the newspaper in the morning and see your name against a column also. Um, how, how did your career, uh, evolve after IIM?

   12. APAmbi Parameswaran5:02

       You know, uh, it was actually serendipity which got me into advertising. You know, otherwise, IIT, IIM, why should I be in advertising? So when I was doing my summer, uh, looking for a summer internship, I wanted a summer internship in, uh, Kolkata. Uh, so I got, among other things, I got into this little-known agency that time called Rediffusion.

   13. SPSpeaker5:27

       Mm.

   14. APAmbi Parameswaran5:28

       Uh, it was started by alumnus from IIM Calcutta, IIM Ahmedabad, and, uh, I was impressed with what they had to tell me. And, uh, I did my summer assignment. It looked like a great place to learn, and then I went back to campus. I kept in touch with them, and then placement season came. Those were the days, 1979, there was, uh... Placement was really after you finish the entire course. So placement used to happen at the end of two years, I think around March or April, or something like that, and companies were coming, and then applied for several companies. Uh, but then I got a call from Rediffusion. I went for a-... drink in the evening with Subhash Chakraverti, and after two drinks, he said, "What do you plan for your future?" I said, "Look, tomorrow Unilever is coming. They've shortlisted me. Day after, Citibank is coming. They've shortlisted me, so, you know, I'll, I'll figure out." So he said, "What about advertising?" So I asked him, you know, "Are you offering me a job?" Uh, he said, "What if I say yes?" I said, "Yeah, then I'll say yes." So he said, "Okay, done." We shook our hands. I didn't know anything else, right? I didn't know how much he was offering, nothing. I go back to the campus, and, uh, my friend who was a, was a, you know, placement secretary, said, uh, uh, "You had a good evening?" I said, "I had a good evening. I got a job." So he said, "Yeah, but you've been shortlisted by Citibank and by... And you have to appear for the interview." I said, "No, I'm not appearing for the interview." So he said, "No, if you have to ex- recuse yourself from the interview, you have to tell these rediv guys to send you an offer. Offer. Without the offer, you have to appear." So then, you know, those days, Calcutta, telephones were a tough thing. Finally, I managed to get through to Subhash, and I tell him, "Look, you better send an offer." So finally, the offer, one paper was faxed by them. Fax- you know, those days, facsimile came, and then I swept that as I'm sitting for the interview. Uh, in fact, Unilever had shortlisted me, and I was one of the top students at IIM Cal. Uh, and I'd, uh, applied to them for summer. I didn't get the summer. And so when I- my name appeared there, they said, "Look, why is this guy not there?"

   15. SPSpeaker7:34

       Mm.

   16. APAmbi Parameswaran7:35

       So then the placement secretary said, "No, he's already got a job." So he said, "How can he get a job? We are the first."

   17. SPSpeaker7:40

       Yeah, Unilever always comes-

   18. APAmbi Parameswaran7:42

       Yeah, we are the first company-

   19. SPSpeaker7:43

       ... Yeah, right.

   20. APAmbi Parameswaran7:44

       So they said, "No, he did a summer with, uh, an ad agency, and, uh, you know, he joined there." So they were very surprised, you know, that I didn't appear for the interview with Unilever, and I've taken a job. But so be it. You know, I, I joined advertising. I spent three years. So people ask me, you know, "How come..." Even my friends ask me, "How come IIT, IIM go and join?" So one thing is, those days, I'm talking of '78, '79, a lot of agencies were hiring from IIMs.

   21. SPSpeaker8:14

       Mm.

   22. APAmbi Parameswaran8:15

       Um, so IIM Ahmedabad, IIM Calcutta, agencies like Lintas and JWT were hiring from them. Um, so I was not the first of the IIMs to join

4. 8:26 – 10:00

   Favourite Campaigns & Brand Stories- Tata Indica, Santur, Sunfeast, Sundrop, TCS, Tata Salt

   1. APAmbi Parameswaran8:26

      advertising, but I think I was the first of the IIT IIM to join.

   2. SPSpeaker8:30

      Mm.

   3. APAmbi Parameswaran8:30

      Now there are quite a few who've been, uh, in advertising, both IIT, IIM, but I was one of the early IIT IIM guys to join advertising, which was a great... I mean, I was in advertising for three years, then I moved out, went into marketing. For almost seven years, eight years, I was in marketing. And then the advertising, uh, bug bit me again, and I went back to join again an agency called Ulka, which was not doing too well. Five of us joined the agency, uh, turned it around, and then sold it to a multinational. So that was a long innings, 20, 26, 27 years I was at Ulka, which became FCB Ulka. Yeah.

   4. SPSpeaker9:08

      Nice. Um, uh, uh, I'm curious to know what were some of the most favorite campaigns that you were- Uh, the one I know is the more car per car campaign, um, the, the Indica launch. Uh, I think that was '98. But I'm curi- Is it- Am I getting it wrong?

   5. APAmbi Parameswaran9:23

      Yeah, you're right. You're perfect. Your memory is great, yeah.

   6. SPSpeaker9:26

      Um, maybe, uh, you can tell us what were your favorite campaigns?

   7. APAmbi Parameswaran9:30

      So through my career, I worked across multiple brands. I mean, for about 15 years, I worked on the Tata Motors business. We'll talk about it in detail later.

   8. SPSpeaker9:38

      Okay.

   9. APAmbi Parameswaran9:38

      Uh, the Tata Indica, Tata Indigo campaign. Then I worked on a brand of soap called Santoor, uh, which again, was a long-running campaign I did. I worked on, uh, Sunfeast, which is a cookie business based in Bangalore. I worked on Sundrop, which is a cooking oil business. I worked on Zee TV. I worked on TCS,

5. 10:00 – 12:10

   Defining Marketing, Branding, and Advertising

   1. APAmbi Parameswaran10:01

      Tata Salt. Um, multiple businesses across-

   2. SPSpeaker10:06

      TCS sounds a little different from the rest.

   3. APAmbi Parameswaran10:09

      Uh, well, well, you know, TCS-

   4. SPSpeaker10:12

      It's not like a consumer brand.

   5. APAmbi Parameswaran10:13

      Yeah, that... You know, I've worked on several, uh, B2B brands, right?

   6. SPSpeaker10:16

      Okay.

   7. APAmbi Parameswaran10:16

      So not just, um, TCS, but, uh, several other B2B brands. So TCS, we did the IPO campaign when they did IPO, and then we did a corporate campaign for them, which was this whole thing about, you know, experience certainty, the whole campaign. We, and we, in fact, did video, we did print advertising in, in, you know, uh, Financial Times, Wall Street Journal, New York Times. So that was, I think, little a year after the IPO, I think.

   8. SPSpeaker10:46

      Okay. I- You know, I- because our audience is mostly a tech audience, so maybe we should start from the basics and build up. Uh, from a very first principles, uh, f- rather the bottom layer question to an outsider, how would you define marketing, advertising? What do these terms mean?

   9. APAmbi Parameswaran11:04

      Uh, we can do an entire podcast on that, you know? So what is marketing?

   10. SPSpeaker11:10

       And what is branding? [chuckles]

   11. APAmbi Parameswaran11:11

       And what is branding, and what is advertising? So it's, uh... So, you know, I think Peter Drucker said this, right: "The only purpose of an organization is to find and retain a customer." So marketing's number one job is to find a customer and satisfy the customer's need, right? That's the primary job of marketing. And then, of course, all the other elements come in, whether it is product, pricing, promotion, all that place. But first is to find a customer and satisfy their need. That is the job of, of marketing. Uh, and, and Peter, uh, and Philip Kotler said, "Branding is marketing. If you take out branding, there is no marketing." So branding, uh, gives the ability for a company to charge a premium to build loyalty with customers, and there are multiple definitions of branding. There is the American Marketing Association, "Brand is a name, logo which distinguishes one product from another product," et cetera, et

6. 12:10 – 13:30

   Customer-Centricity in Marketing

   1. APAmbi Parameswaran12:10

      cetera. But in simple terms, brand-... is a name with a story. So a name telling a story is a brand, and that's what we do in marketing, which is build brands, put stories into them. So when I say Santoor, when I say Lux, or when I say TCS, when I say Wipro, it tells a story to the listener. So that's the job of marketing, to build brands, and those brands then ha- start having meaning for customers, so that they like their brands and they become loyal to brands. So this is what we do in marketing, right? The core is not your product. Core is not your app. Core is the customer. Who is the customer? Do we know this customer? Do we understand the customer's needs? Are we satisfying them? Are we giving them value? If you do that, the customer will keep coming, right, and customer will stay with you. So that's the job of marketing. You know, done in... I would explain it in, whatever, three minutes for you. Okay.

   2. SPSpeaker13:19

      I'm wondering, um, from an engineering background, somebody will come back and say that that's the job of product teams, to, you know, understand the customer and build a product for the customer.

7. 13:30 – 15:00

   Product vs. Marketing Debate

   1. SPSpeaker13:30

      Uh, uh, d- I mean, like, for, uh, in coming from a tech side of things, a lot of tech companies nowadays say, "Marketing is not needed. We'll just build a great product." And global brands, like Tesla, for example, doesn't spend that much on... I don't know whether they actually do, but they claim. Um, how does this sit in with this idea?

   2. APAmbi Parameswaran13:49

      So, you know, uh, there is this old story that if I build a better mousetrap, the world will come knocking on my door, right? That doesn't happen. The world has got a hundred other things to do. So if you don't go and tell them that you built a better mousetrap, no one's gonna come. So even brands like, say, Apple or Tesla, who don't do ostensibly classical advertising, they handle media brilliantly well.

   3. SPSpeaker14:17

      Mm.

   4. APAmbi Parameswaran14:17

      Right? For example, uh, five, six years ago, going with a friend of mine in California, and suddenly he said, "That's a Tesla." Right? Because the car looked distinctive. Okay, it's Ca- Tesla's look was its advertising, right? Um, Apple over-invested in their showrooms. So you walk into an Apple showroom, you get mesmerized, right? So they... You know, all that is marketing. The normal mistake we make is marketing is only advertising you see on your mobile phone or your TV, but all that is marketing. Showroom is marketing, right? The Tesla showrooms are different, right? Tesla looks different, okay, and therefore, that is marketing. You know, that works

8. 15:00 – 17:24

   Performance Marketing & Its Evolution

   1. APAmbi Parameswaran15:00

      to build your brand.

   2. SPSpeaker15:01

      Mm.

   3. APAmbi Parameswaran15:01

      So you... You know, now who says branding and, and advertising is only o- one type? It can be multiple types today. So, uh, they were very smart, and, and Tesla used media in a brilliant way through PR, right? The whole thing about building Elon Musk into whatever he is or whatever he's not, right, all this is part of the marketing game.

   4. SPSpeaker15:24

      Sure. We would call it founder-led marketing. [chuckles]

   5. APAmbi Parameswaran15:27

      Good. Founder?

   6. SPSpeaker15:28

      Founder-led marketing.

   7. APAmbi Parameswaran15:29

      Yeah, found- yeah, founder-led marketing. I mean, Steve Jobs wrote the playbook for that-

   8. SPSpeaker15:32

      Yeah

   9. APAmbi Parameswaran15:32

      ... right? So-

   10. SPSpeaker15:34

       So maybe it's better to say that what Tesla doesn't do is maybe spend money on performance or, uh, spend money on, um, print ads, and that is probably what they mean when they say that, "We don't do marketing."

   11. APAmbi Parameswaran15:47

       Exactly. You know, so Tesla may say, "We don't do the classical TV advertising or the print advertising," uh, but they do everything else. They do media relations, they do... Uh, their showrooms are very different, blah, blah, blah, you know, so that's all part of marketing.

   12. SPSpeaker16:01

       Right. I, I also sort of, um, because we spoke about branding, and now in the last 10 years, there's this term called performance marketing, right? Which is digital ads. And, uh, I think, um, that has changed the way marketing teams work. I would love to understand your, uh, view on how brands have evolved along with the evolution of performance marketing.

   13. APAmbi Parameswaran16:24

       See, this whole thing about performance marketing, brand marketing, is today highly discussed, right? But it's not as if performance marketing did not exist in the past. We used to call it direct marketing-

   14. SPSpeaker16:36

       Okay

   15. APAmbi Parameswaran16:36

       ... where you s- put in an ad, the customer is supposed to call a number.

   16. SPSpeaker16:40

       Mm.

   17. APAmbi Parameswaran16:41

       Right? And I remember we handled, uh, uh, Dell, so you know, Dell's advertising campaign for some years. Uh, you know, Dell used to do, to run these print ads, you know, in newspapers, and there was a phone number which used to come at the bottom, very nice and prominent. Dell globally had worked out a system that this phone number changes with every ad, every newspaper, every edition.

   18. SPSpeaker17:08

       Mm.

   19. APAmbi Parameswaran17:08

       So when the phone rings, they know based on which number the customer has called, where has the customer seen the ad? Has the customer seen the ad in The Hindu, or has the customer seen the ad in Economic Times? Where have they seen the ad? So that's performance marketing.

   20. SPSpeaker17:23

       Yeah.

   21. APAmbi Parameswaran17:23

       Right? And Dell used to

9. 17:24 – 19:37

   Do Great Products Need Marketing?

   1. APAmbi Parameswaran17:24

      do a hell of a lot of that all over the world, right? Uh, but Dell also used to do a lot of classic brand marketing, right? So today, we, we need both. I mean, people who do a lot of performance marketing for companies and brands say that, "Look, after a particular point in time, performance marketing return on investment starts tapering off." Then if you don't do brand marketing, it'll keep falling off the cliff, right? So you need to, you know, you need to do both in the right proportion. Uh, in the good old days, maybe you used to do more on brand marketing. Uh, today, you do more of performance marketing, but I call this the yin and yang of marketing. Both have to coexist. Uh, one without the other will not, will not work. So, I mean, you can build a brand up to a particular point of time with performance marketing alone, which is buy one, get one free, or this, you know, uh, free off of a seven-day, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.... but after a point in time, you've got to make the customer feel happy why they bought the product, right? That can be done only with brand marketing, so you need both.

   2. SPSpeaker18:30

      Sure. Up to a point, you can, uh, probably just play around on price and feature, and after that you have to add the story layer and the, uh, the value layer.

   3. APAmbi Parameswaran18:41

      Absolutely. Yeah.

   4. SPSpeaker18:44

      It's interesting that you say that, this direct marketing example that you gave. I'm also thinking, as you say, that Dell could do it because it's Dell, and it's a large company. Maybe smaller companies didn't have that kind of muscle to do a, a traffic sourcing, direct marketing, and now it's available to almost everyone.

   5. APAmbi Parameswaran19:02

      True. I mean, even those days, uh, even when companies run those coupon ads, right, the little coupon used to come-

   6. SPSpeaker19:08

      Yeah

   7. APAmbi Parameswaran19:08

      ... in the print ad, you would cut and send the coupon. The company used to put a code in the coupon.

   8. SPSpeaker19:12

      Okay.

   9. APAmbi Parameswaran19:13

      So when the coupon comes back, I know this ad appeared in this paper, or I know this ad appeared in this magazine, so I can correlate and I can figure out what-

   10. SPSpeaker19:21

       What

   11. APAmbi Parameswaran19:21

       ... worked better.

   12. SPSpeaker19:24

       Okay, so, okay, so, so we, we spoke about what does, what does marketing mean in general, and what does branding mean? So the second layer of the question, which I get asked all the time, and maybe you've already answered it, but let's just talk about it

10. 19:37 – 23:00

    B2B vs. B2C Marketing

    1. SPSpeaker19:37

       a little more. Uh, do great products need marketing at all?

    2. APAmbi Parameswaran19:42

       No, I, I think they do. Uh, I think, uh, you know, just because you built a great product, doesn't mean the world is gonna know about it. Uh, there's an old saying that, uh, a lousy product dies a very rapid death with a lot of marketing. A good product, therefore, without good marketing, takes a long time to catch on. So what is marketing gonna do? Marketing is gonna going to, therefore, speed up the adoption curve.

    3. SPSpeaker20:13

       Mm.

    4. APAmbi Parameswaran20:13

       Right? Uh, innovators will anyway find out about your product and use it. The early adopters may come, but then the early majority will come only with sufficient amount of marketing.

    5. SPSpeaker20:27

       Sure.

    6. APAmbi Parameswaran20:27

       And without that, you're not gonna... You know, the classical, uh, you know, crossing the chasm will not happen if you don't do marketing. Now, marketing doesn't necessarily mean you need to take ads on, uh, on, on ZTV or whatever, right? Marketing could be multiple. Could be getting, you know, user endorsement stories, sharing stories, do a lot of content marketings. All that is marketing today, right? So it can be anything, but in order to cross the chasm, you will have to do marketing, right? So that's a given. I don't think-

    7. SPSpeaker21:02

       I think people get, um... I mean, maybe, may- they get, they get misled by one or two success stories where they didn't need marketing. ChatGPT, for example, just exploded, right?

    8. APAmbi Parameswaran21:14

       Oh, yeah. I mean, ChatGPT exploded, but it, it went... You know, it was different, and it's- there was a- I would say the ecosystem was building up for it, right? And then everyone knew something was something, and then, and then they used PR very brilliantly.

    9. SPSpeaker21:27

       Yeah, they did.

    10. APAmbi Parameswaran21:27

        And PR is marketing, right? All over the world, it was suddenly opened. It did a big PR, and they... Who knows? They must have, uh, done heavy-duty PR with the so-called opinion leaders, the influencers.

    11. SPSpeaker21:41

        Yeah.

    12. APAmbi Parameswaran21:41

        Right? If you get 20 influencers to talk about your product, you're done. And today, the influencers ask you for money, so you have to pay them.

    13. SPSpeaker21:49

        Yeah.

    14. APAmbi Parameswaran21:50

        Right. So, so it's, uh, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's that, right? I mean, ChatGPT didn't... I, it's, it's wrong to say ChatGPT did no marketing.

    15. SPSpeaker22:00

        Uh, maybe, uh, w- I, I feel, as you're saying it, I feel like maybe in the first month when they were growing, their, their activity on marketing was pretty low, but in- immediately after, it was quite heavy. Like the, as you were saying, the PR was spent phenomenal.

    16. APAmbi Parameswaran22:14

        F- I mean, it was there in every paper.

    17. SPSpeaker22:16

        Mm.

    18. APAmbi Parameswaran22:16

        Right? It doesn't happen on its own. They must have pushed it very hard, right?

    19. SPSpeaker22:21

        Mm.

    20. APAmbi Parameswaran22:21

        They must have got the so-called the most influential podcasters, like you, to, to talk- [chuckles]

    21. SPSpeaker22:27

        Thank you

    22. APAmbi Parameswaran22:27

        ... to talk about it, right?

    23. SPSpeaker22:28

        [chuckles]

    24. APAmbi Parameswaran22:28

        And it, it caught on after that.

    25. SPSpeaker22:30

        Yeah. Interesting. Um, on that vein, on the, this, like, um, again, a question that we get v- very often is: How is a B2B marketing, uh, different from B2C? The consumer goods, I think it's very easy to understand that a Santoor soap needs advertising to layer that story around it. In a B2B setting, the assumption is that the buyer, because there's a business buyer, they're very logical and they'll look at a feature set. Why do we need to have to

11. 23:00 – 28:00

    Marketing Deep Tech vs. Consumer Products

    1. SPSpeaker23:00

       layer a story around?

    2. APAmbi Parameswaran23:02

       So, you know, it's a myth that, you know, all B2C purchase is emotional and all B2B purchase is rational. So my old colleague, uh, Jonathan Harris, has this nice comment. He says, "If you buy a product for purely rational reason, you will never be happy. If you buy a product for purely emotional reason, you'll never be satisfied." Mm. Right, so rationality, emotionality, same. So in a B2C setting, it's possible that there is more emotion involved. In B2B, there is more rationality, but these two have to work together, right? I mean, there is this old saying, right, uh, "You never got fired for buying IBM."

    3. SPSpeaker23:49

       IBM, yeah.

    4. APAmbi Parameswaran23:50

       Why? Because IBM was a recognized brand, right? There was so much trust, so much equity behind IBM, that even if their hardware, their computers are not all that great, but the head of IT never got fired for buying IBM. Today, you could say the same thing with, you know, never got fired for implementing SAP, right? Because SAP has that image, that it is productivity tool, blah, blah, blah. So same thing, where is it coming from? Is it- is buying SAP a purely-... rational reason or is there some emotion also involved? So there is always, you know, final-

    5. SPSpeaker24:28

       You, you are saying that, that safe decision or you're buying into the brand, that's a partly emotional-

    6. APAmbi Parameswaran24:34

       Mostly emotional. And the other thing is all B2B decisions, there are multiple people involved, right? There could be a purchase manager, a CEO, could be a CFO. Now, they have their personalities also coming in.

    7. SPSpeaker24:49

       Mm.

    8. APAmbi Parameswaran24:49

       Right? They have their own personal reasons coming in, so that'll be emotional, right? Uh, so like we talked about IBM, you know, I may go with a particular vendor because it'll make me look good, right? I may go with a particular vendor because I like the way they talk to me, right? Uh, et cetera, et cetera. So there is- it's absolutely wrong to say all B2B, uh, purchases are purely rational. There is always a strong emotional component in all B2B purchases also.

    9. SPSpeaker25:23

       Mm.

    10. APAmbi Parameswaran25:24

        That's my submission. You may not agree.

    11. SPSpeaker25:27

        No, I mean, I'm a marketing person, so [chuckles] I, I agree with you. I'm just- sometimes I think that, uh, because of pr- a product... I, uh, actually, let, let me ask you two other questions and come back to this. Um, from a B2C or a B2B angle, um, is there a large difference between selling a tech or a deep tech product versus a non-tech product? I mean, the example I've written down here is, uh, Indica versus Santur. A modern example would be an Ather versus a, um, a sugar-free ice cream.

    12. APAmbi Parameswaran26:00

        So, I mean, both Indica and Santur are consumer product. They are B2C product, right?

    13. SPSpeaker26:05

        Yeah, but one is like a, it feels like a tech, technology purchase.

    14. APAmbi Parameswaran26:11

        So in a sense, uh, I would say Santur was more an emotional sell.

    15. SPSpeaker26:18

        Mm.

    16. APAmbi Parameswaran26:19

        Uh, Indica was more a rational sell, but Indica cannot sell only on rationality, right? There was a fair bit of emotion in our marketing of Indica, right? The, the fact that, you know, it, the more car per car made people feel proud, you know, because buying a car is a very emotional decision in India, right? So there is a lot of emotionality involved. It's, it's, it's incorrect to say that all Indica buyers were very, you know, left brain, and they're very rational, and they go buy it. No. You know, when Indica was being launched, and I can go on a little bit about what-

    17. SPSpeaker26:52

        Yeah, actually, that'll be great.

    18. APAmbi Parameswaran26:54

        Okay, so when it was being launched, I mean, in 1998, like you said, no one gave them a chance, right? Everyone thought, "Where is..." You know, "How is Tata, who make trucks, gonna make a car, which is gonna compete with Maruti Suzuki, Hyundai," and that time Fiat had come, and of course, you know, Daewoo. "Where is Tata gonna..." I mean, no one believed it could be done, right? And then Tata then came out with, with their Indica. Um, their, the major play was on diesel. So the other question was, it'll be diesel engine, it'll be very noisy, it'll drop oil all over the place, it'll be difficult to maintain, but they launched it, right? People said they will not be able to make it. They made it. They launched it. Unfortunately, six months later, problems started, right? They, they had quality issues, tires were getting worn out, uh, there was a belt noise which used to come. But then Mr. Tata had taken it upon himself with, "I will have to prove it to,

12. 28:00 – 32:00

    Indian Brands, National Pride, and Market Challenges

    1. APAmbi Parameswaran28:00

       to the world that we can make a car." So he had given his, you know, marketing team and his production team, he said, "Go ahead, fix it." So they went, did customer interviews across 30 cities, met 3,000 owners, identified what was the problem, went back to the plant, fixed the problem, and the new cars started rolling out. I think it was, uh, year 2000, um, September, the new cars were rolling out. But sales had by then tanked. They had gone to 2,000 cars a month and going down. And at the time they said, "Look, what should we do?" So we had actually stopped advertising for almost six, eight months. So we said, "We need to send a signal to the market that it's a new Indica." So but they said, "No, it's the same Indica." I said, "No, no, we need to send a signal, so the consumer knows something has happened to the Indica without cursing the old Indica."

    2. SPSpeaker28:51

       Sorry, let me just recap. So '98, the Indica was launched. It had a-

    3. APAmbi Parameswaran28:54

       '98, it was pre-launch.

    4. SPSpeaker28:57

       Okay.

    5. APAmbi Parameswaran28:58

       '99, March, it started rolling out.

    6. SPSpeaker29:00

       And immediately they were launching-

    7. APAmbi Parameswaran29:01

       And within six months, they started having problems.

    8. SPSpeaker29:04

       Okay.

    9. APAmbi Parameswaran29:04

       So then we had no advertising from around middle, late '99 to middle of 2000, and then we said, "Look, what are we going to do?" And, uh, finally, you know, Tata said, "Look, uh, what's your suggestion?" So we said, "We'll call it Indica V2." So they said, "No, no, no, this V2, what does it mean?" So we said, "Version two." "So there's no... This is okay for Surf. You can say Surf, Super Surf, but, you know, in cars, you can't do this." So we said, "Look, listen to us, it'll work, so trust us." And, and they had tremendous amount of trust in what, what we are saying. So we did Indica V2, and sales had gone to 2,000. Within literally three months, it started climbing up, and it went up to 6,000, and Indica became a larger selling car than, than, you know, uh, WagonR and, and Swift. And, you know, uh, not Swift, WagonR, um, uh, Santro, and Daewoo. It overtook those three cars. And that gave Tata Motors the confidence to then create a sedan, which was called-

    10. SPSpeaker30:11

        Indigo

    11. APAmbi Parameswaran30:11

        ... Indigo. And, and that changed the, uh, entire direction of the company, and I'm very happy to say that even today, with their new range of electric vehicles, they are among the top two, top three car manufacturers in the country. And I think somewhere the success of Tata Motors-... gave the confidence to other companies in this space to venture into manufacturing. Like, for example, Mahindra, I'm sure was inspired by the success of, uh, Tata. In fact, our, our sister company worked on the, on the Bolero and the, and the Scorpio, and all those brands. So it gave them tremendous confidence, right? So to the extent when Mr. Tata was given the Lifetime Achievement Award by the Detroit Auto Journalist Association, it's a very prestigious award. In the speech, which is there on, on YouTube, you can check it out, he mentions this, that, uh, "When I launched Indica, my friends started distancing themselves away from me," known as distancing yourself from failure.

    12. SPSpeaker31:16

        Mm.

    13. APAmbi Parameswaran31:17

        "But then my team did a great job. We managed to establish a car brand, which was Indian, an Indian owner." Right, so I think Indica was a great, um, a great experience for me. I worked on it for many years, uh, which was from a, but, you know, boom, bust, boom kind of a story. So it's a, it's a long, long story, and, and it's quasi-rational, quasi-emotional. I'm calling it Indica Vida. Is that very rational? I don't know.

    14. SPSpeaker31:48

        Mm.

    15. APAmbi Parameswaran31:49

        Right? But you're sending an emotional signal because we knew that Tata inspired trust in consumers in India, and they want Tata to succeed. And how do you get people

13. 32:00 – 36:00

    Healthcare, Diffusion of Innovation, and Social Impact

    1. APAmbi Parameswaran32:00

       to re-look at Indica, was we- the idea was the Indica Vida, right? And then, of course, Santoor was very different. It's about younger-looking skin and the whole idea of mistaken identity, which is what continued for-

    2. SPSpeaker32:13

       Which was the mother who-

    3. APAmbi Parameswaran32:14

       Yeah.

    4. SPSpeaker32:15

       Like this is-

    5. APAmbi Parameswaran32:15

       This mother who gets mistaken for a college student, and that, that theme has been working. When I started working on Santoor, uh, we were one-fifth the size of Lux, right? And then I think 2018, they became bigger than, uh, Lux. Can you imagine Indian brand beating a global, you know, global brand? So I'm very happy that I worked on some of these campaigns for Indian companies and Indian brands.

    6. SPSpeaker32:38

       I wanna ask you about that a little bit. Uh, this, the, the, the, the Indians can do this kind of, uh, idea that, uh, the, the Indica brought to the car business. Um, was it used in the advertising? Like, did it really say Indian car?

    7. APAmbi Parameswaran32:55

       We, you know, uh, we didn't ever, you know, in the Tata also, we didn't ever want to tell people, "Be Indian, buy Indian."

    8. SPSpeaker33:01

       Mm.

    9. APAmbi Parameswaran33:01

       It's kind of devaluing yourself, right? Which is why the name Indica was enough.

    10. SPSpeaker33:06

        Yes.

    11. APAmbi Parameswaran33:06

        Spelt India, right? Indica spelt India. There's no need to say, "Be Indian, buy Indian." Be Indian, buy Indian actually cheapens your brand, which is why I think Aether is doing the smart thing. You're not saying, "Be Indian, buy Indian." It's, it's, it's a, you know, Aether is a, again, a great story, right? So I don't think you should now go and tell people, "Be Indian, buy Indian." People know that.

    12. SPSpeaker33:28

        I also feel like if you, if you are in your- in the beginning of your brand, if you're doing a be Indian, buy Indian kind of campaign and it works, a, a- as a entrepreneur, you might feel a little unsure of whether your brand worked because of the, uh, because the customer is buying an Indian product or be- because your product's actually good.

    13. APAmbi Parameswaran33:44

        No, I, you know, I don't think be Indian, buy In- an Indian consume- customer-

    14. SPSpeaker33:48

        Does

    15. APAmbi Parameswaran33:48

        ... is not gonna buy it, right? Be Indian, buy Indian is, is not, is very good in, in forums like this, but it's not gonna work.

    16. SPSpeaker33:56

        Very interesting. In many fields, uh, entrepreneurs have to continue to resell this idea of, uh, Indians can do this, like Mr. Tata had to do for automobiles. Let's just take, uh, medical devices. So much conversation around medical devices now, but, uh, so hard to convince Indian hospitals to buy Indian medical devices, and similarly in electronics and semiconductors. Um, what would you say to an entrepreneur who's just tired and exhausted of telling people that we can do it here? I mean, from a marketing lens, how does this work out?

    17. APAmbi Parameswaran34:30

        You can't feel tired and exhausted, right? You can't feel tired. You have to go back and do it, right? I mean, Tata had to give away 30,000 tires because the tires had worn out, but they had to do it, right? You have to do it, right? You can't feel tired, right? So but you have to do things. You know, you maybe you have to look at pricing as a weapon. Maybe you have to look at other forms of opinion leadership as a weapon. You've got to, got to use all the possible weapons in marketing, right? Instead of just saying, "You know, we make a good product." "Okay, we make a good product, so what? Why should I switch? Are you gonna offer me something extra? Are you gonna offer me price advantage? Are you gonna offer me some bulk advantage? Are you gonna offer me something extra?" The customer is gonna ask, "Why should he or she switch from a international brand of suture to your brand of suture, or international brand of, you know, um, stent to your brand of stent?" You've got to prove it to them, uh, and then offer value, then they will move. Initially, they will doubt. But, you know, even medical devices, Ambi Parameswaran, just to... I- India, there are huge opportunities, right, for selling value-for-money medical devices, right? Why should you go only after the top hospital? There are enough, you know, poor people who want something which they can afford.

    18. SPSpeaker35:53

        Sure, actually, it's a very interesting point. I've read, um, around that in opthal, uh, there

14. 36:00 – 41:00

    Brand Building for Institutions

    1. SPSpeaker36:00

       are a lot of Indian devices, and, uh, also because, uh, in the Western countries, opthal is a clinical hospital system, but in India it's a, uh, it's a small clinic, uh, outward. Like, the, maybe you go with a truck to a village, uh, or a bus to a village and do a lot of operations, and so on. So, yeah, I, I, it makes sense for sure.

    2. APAmbi Parameswaran36:20

       So I, I think, uh, uh, you know-

    3. SPSpeaker36:22

       Reimagine the system

    4. APAmbi Parameswaran36:23

       ... they make their own lenses, right? There's, um, uh, uh, Dr. V's, uh, Arvind Eye Hospital. I think they make their own lenses.

    5. SPSpeaker36:31

       Mm.

    6. APAmbi Parameswaran36:32

       Right? And I've been and spent time with, uh, Sankara Eye Foundation in Coimbatore.... uh, they do great work.

    7. SPSpeaker36:39

       Yeah.

    8. APAmbi Parameswaran36:39

       Right? And, and I, I think they- they again do this, right? They go to villages, uh, do eye examination, and they move people in buses to their hospital, perform the surgery, keep them for a day, and then send them back.

    9. SPSpeaker36:53

       They're talking about cataract, right?

    10. APAmbi Parameswaran36:55

        Yeah, cataract. Largely cataract. I think they were saying that within a couple of years, uh, I mean, maybe we've already achieved, that Tamil Nadu will achieve a steady state, which means anyone who has a cataract can get hims- herself operated, right? So we're re- reaching a steady state in, in, uh, in Tamil Nadu because of, you know, Aravind Eye Hospital, Sankara Eye Foundation, Sankara Nethralaya, all of them doing great work. But rest of India, no, right? There is still a huge gap between. But the point is, in India, you can get a, you know, cataract done for virtually free if you're a poor person. And if you're a rich person, you can pick and pay 10,000 rupees. But you want to go to a five-star, uh, ophthalmic surgeon, you pay a lakh of rupees, right? There's a whole new-

    11. SPSpeaker37:42

        If you choose to do it at an optimal, auspicious time, you can pay a little-

    12. APAmbi Parameswaran37:46

        Yeah

    13. SPSpeaker37:46

        ... 20% extra.

    14. APAmbi Parameswaran37:46

        You can... Your, your, your family members can watch, uh-

    15. SPSpeaker37:49

        Yeah

    16. APAmbi Parameswaran37:49

        ... the thing being performed on a closed-circuit TV. I've done that. So, you know, uh, that all costs money, right? It costs a lakh and a half. But the same thing, a poor person gets it done free.

    17. SPSpeaker38:02

        So you're saying that the entrepreneurs have to be more patient and have to try, keep trying, keep trying.

    18. APAmbi Parameswaran38:06

        Yeah, you have to keep trying. You have to target, you have to go after, uh, do some experimenting, go after smaller, uh, hospitals, go after smaller catchment areas, get the word spreading from there. See, look back, I mean, uh, we would've been a food, uh, you know, deficit country, right? We would've all died of starvation. But, uh, M.S. Swaminathan, uh, God bless his soul, uh, brought hybrid seeds into India, right? But did he go and give it to every farmer? No. Uh, he used the diffusion of innovation curve to say that, "Look, in certain key villages, who are the key farmers? And get them to use this hybrid seed in a part of their farm." So they created what are called test plots, and then the whole village will come and watch how this, you know, this wheat or this rice is growing like this, and the standard rice is growing like this. And then the next year, within two years, I think the whole country adopted hybrid seed, within five years.

    19. SPSpeaker39:14

        What is the word you used? Diffusion something.

    20. APAmbi Parameswaran39:16

        Diffusion of innovation.

    21. SPSpeaker39:17

        Diffusion of innovation.

    22. APAmbi Parameswaran39:18

        Done by, you know, interestingly, original research done in, um, Illinois by Everett Rogers, and the two products he did it on to prove it is, one was pharmaceuticals, which is tetracycline antibiotic, and the other was hybrid seeds, right? And M.S. Swaminathan brought that idea here and said, "Look, I can't go and give it to farmers. I need to create, you know, test plots, get them to see it, believe it, and then start using it."

    23. SPSpeaker39:52

        Yeah.

    24. APAmbi Parameswaran39:52

        Right? Which is what happened. Same thing you have to do, every new pro- new-

    25. SPSpeaker39:56

        Every new category, as you-

    26. APAmbi Parameswaran39:58

        New category, you have to do that.

    27. SPSpeaker39:59

        Uh, do you think that an Incredible India kind of campaign, the, the campaign that was done for Indian tourism, will help Indian tech overall? The... And I'm asking the, the, by- sorry, but the intent of my question here is, there's some, some work that each company has to do, uh, to sort of sell its product, but there's like a thing that all companies or all the entire category has to do together to prove its capability, right?

    28. APAmbi Parameswaran40:24

        You know, given the fact that I've earned my living doing advertising, I would say all advertising will be helpful, right? So Incredible India, done by, you know, uh, Amitabh Kant, was a great campaign, right? Uh, and it has helped, you know, uh, bring tourists into India. But just a campaign is not enough, you know? I mean, which is what, you know, other things you try. You need to have host- you need to have airline connections, you need to have hotels, you need to have, you know, tourist guides out there. You need to have a sense of cleanliness, right? I mean, it's, it's amazing when you compare

15. 41:00 – 44:00

    Ambi's Book: 'Marketing Mixology'

    1. APAmbi Parameswaran41:00

       the cleanliness of a place like, you know, Japan, place like India. We were in Japan a few years ago, and there was, I think, not an Indian tourist, but I think some, uh, maybe American tourist, European tourist, was eating something, and he dropped some plastic packet, you know, on the floor. And I could see a shopkeeper running out, picking up the plastic packet, and taking it back into her store, because she said, "I want the road to be clean." Right? And if you go to Japan, there are no wastepaper baskets anywhere. You're supposed to collect your waste and take it home, sort it, and, and put it out, right? So just by doing a campaign order, but the campaign will help.

    2. SPSpeaker41:42

       Mm.

    3. APAmbi Parameswaran41:42

       Campaign will help for many things. One, it'll bring pride. It'll also help you attract talent.

    4. SPSpeaker41:48

       Yeah.

    5. APAmbi Parameswaran41:49

       Right? Uh, today, an Indian engineer may think it's more cool to work in a foreign multinational.

    6. SPSpeaker41:58

       Oh, for sure. Ather office is in Bangalore, and so is BMW, and, uh, you know, like, an auto engineer can choose.

    7. APAmbi Parameswaran42:05

       Exactly. So why should the best auto engineer go to BMW or to Mercedes or to Boeing? Why not go to, go to Ather? So it'll make... You know, I think it'll have a lot of other beneficial effects.

    8. SPSpeaker42:18

       Sure. Mm. But what you're saying is that, that, that structural change has to support marketing.

    9. APAmbi Parameswaran42:25

       Absolutely. If you keep- you know, the tragedy is, if tech people keep looking down upon marketing, they're digging their own grave, right? So it's up to them. You know, they say, uh, "Marketing is all hot air. Marketing is all gas." Then thank you very much, guys. You know, you're gonna be there.

    10. SPSpeaker42:42

        ... [chuckles] Okay. Uh, that was great. Um, I want to mention that, uh, you are at Sangam to promote your book. Um, I have your book with me, so maybe we can spend some time on this book. Um, this is your ninth book.

    11. APAmbi Parameswaran42:54

        Twelfth.

    12. SPSpeaker42:55

        Twel- Oh, I'm sorry. [chuckles] This is your twelfth book. Um, can you tell us a little bit about the book?

    13. APAmbi Parameswaran43:00

        Okay, so let me hold the book to camera so that I do a bit of promotion of the book. So, um, this is my twelfth book. It's called Marketing Mixology: Four Essential Skills for Marketing Success. As we've been talking, this book covers four topics: uh, consumer understanding, brand building, negotiation, and selling, and communication. Four topics. Normally, most marketing books will talk about consumers, will talk about branding, but you'll very rarely find a marketing book talking about, uh, negotiation or talking about communication. Uh, which is why I wanted a slightly kind of catchy title, and so the original title I had was Marketing Masala Mix. Mm. But my publisher said it was too gimmicky, and, uh, so then I had to think of other names and, and we want, you know,

16. 44:00 – 46:00

    Podcasting and Knowledge Sharing

    1. APAmbi Parameswaran44:00

       random ideas. What do you do these days? You go to ChatGPT-

    2. SPSpeaker44:03

       Right

    3. APAmbi Parameswaran44:03

       ... you start putting prompts, prompt after prompt after prompt. And suddenly, you saw this word, mixology, and then I say, "Yeah, that's nice. You'll put this together." And then I got the cover done, uh, Marketing Mixology. So it's a, it's a light read. Uh, it's not a heavy book. It's what? Hundred and fifty pages all of total. Uh, it's a, it's an easy introduction to people who are interested in marketing. And of course, if you're a veteran in marketing, you'll probably able to read it in about 30, 40 minutes-

    4. SPSpeaker44:32

       Mm

    5. APAmbi Parameswaran44:33

       ... and get a refresher of some of the old concepts, right? So it's a, it's a, it's a light read, and, um, thank you for picking it up, and thank you for allowing me to plug the book in this podcast.

    6. SPSpeaker44:45

       [chuckles] I'm curious, uh, Ambi, uh, you have practiced marketing and advertising, you've taught it, and you've written about it. How are these things different?

    7. APAmbi Parameswaran44:57

       They're all connected in some way, you know. Um, I wrote my first book, and it came out in the year 2000. Now, I was that time teaching, um, brand management in a business school in Mumbai, NMIMS. And, uh, those days, I'm talking of '96, '97, getting these so-called Harvard cases were very expensive. Each case used to cost $25, and, you know, not, not all business schools could afford that. So I said, "Why should we use Harvard cases? Why can't I write my own cases?" So from our own experience, you know, uh, I wrote a set of 12, 13 cases, you know, Sundrop and Santoor, and, uh, Godrej Storewell, and Tata Telecom, uh, you know, um, LML Vespa. You know, I wrote about 14 cases, and I used it for my teaching, and students really enjoyed discussing these cases. And then, uh, a friend of mine, um, uh, Arvind

17. 46:00 – 50:00

    IIT Madras Brand Building Project- The AskIITM Initiative

    1. APAmbi Parameswaran46:00

       Rangaswamy, who's again, uh, IIT, uh, Madras alumnus, um, uh, my batch, IIM Cal, um, he said, "Why don't you publish it?" So I said, "Okay," cases to Tata McGraw-Hill, and within, I think, a week, uh, the publisher from Tata McGraw-Hill, the editor- commissioning editor, Deepa, was in my office, said, "We are interested." So done. So I mean, publishing takes a long time. I gave them the text, I think in '98, '99, and then the book came out in 2000. So that's how it started. So working in advertising, teaching, writing, these are somewhat related, and the first book was called FCB Ulka Brand Building Advertising. Uh, so it also became a calling card for the agency. "What do you guys do?" "We build brands." Okay, and here's a book, right? That we wrote... I wrote first volume. Second volume I wrote with a colleague of mine, Kinjal Mehta, so we come out with two volumes of, uh, FCB Ulka Brand Building Advertising. In fact, when I gave the first book to my client at Tata Motors, I remember Rajiv Dubey telling me, "Ambi, I hope in your next book, you'll be featuring our case." I said, "Of course, I will." And I- there are two cases in the second book, Tata Indica and Tata Indigo. So it kind of fed each other. I was doing something for the education sector, producing books with cases, real cases, which are taught in business schools. It helped to spread the word about our agency, right? And it kept me intellectually, you know, occupied. So it was good. It was good for, uh, doing it.

    2. SPSpeaker47:38

       Nice. Um, you also host a podcast. I saw some episodes on Spotify. I think the publisher is IMV, IMW? No.

    3. APAmbi Parameswaran47:46

       Um-

    4. SPSpeaker47:47

       I'm getting it wrong. I think the podcast is called Last Brand Standing.

    5. APAmbi Parameswaran47:51

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So Last Brand Standing was, um, uh, IVM podcast.

    6. SPSpeaker47:58

       IVM, IVM. I'm so sorry.

    7. APAmbi Parameswaran47:59

       In, in... Yeah, IVM is a platform on which we did that. I did a series of six podcasts with Anupam Gupta, where I talked about brand battles. Uh, I've also done another series you might not have seen called Sponge Leadership Lessons, which is 27 episodes, which is based on my book called Sponge.

    8. SPSpeaker48:20

       Okay.

    9. APAmbi Parameswaran48:20

       Each chapter is discussed, uh, in that, uh, podcast. Um, I was there along with Amit Doshi, who's a founder of IVM Podcast. So we, every, uh, every episode is 20 minutes, and each is discussed, some- one chapter of the book. So I've got two different podcasts. Yeah.

    10. SPSpeaker48:42

        Nice. So cool, um, that you've done so much around this topic.... um, the, uh, the, the, the reason we met four years back was to talk about IIT Madras' perception. And, um, and I'm interested because with your guidance, we started this AskIITM project, which now has, you know, we have- the same team works on the podcast, and it's, uh, it's been... It's come out. I think it's been a while, and, um, I know I do a check-in with you once in a while. Uh, do you think it's come out well? I'm curious how you feel.

    11. APAmbi Parameswaran49:14

        I, I think, I think hats off to Professor Mahesh for thinking of this, that we should do something to fix the image. And then, of course, when he asked me, "Who could be their, you know, uh, communication partner?" And that time I think you had contacted-

    12. SPSpeaker49:32

        Jistar, yeah, yeah.

    13. APAmbi Parameswaran49:33

        Yeah, I remembered your name, and I said, "Look, um, who, who better than a IIT Madras alumnus?"

    14. SPSpeaker49:40

        Mm.

    15. APAmbi Parameswaran49:40

        So that's how, you know, the connection happened. And then you set up the, you know, AskIIM website, and questions, and all that. I think it's, it's a great initiative. Anything like this takes time-

    16. SPSpeaker49:51

        Mm

    17. APAmbi Parameswaran49:51

        ... you know, because you're not blowing up big money.

    18. SPSpeaker49:54

        Yeah.

    19. APAmbi Parameswaran49:54

        Right, if you blow up big money, the result you get in five years, you may achieve in two years or three years.

18. 50:00 – 1:04:00

    AI's Impact on Marketing

    1. APAmbi Parameswaran50:00

       Like, for example, IIT Madras today is, I mean, thanks to, uh, some of the efforts you've done, which is seen as a place to build, right? That, you know, Aether is a shining example-

    2. SPSpeaker50:09

       Example

    3. APAmbi Parameswaran50:10

       ... of that. And if you add three more like that, you know, you're gonna have a different story to tell it, right? So which is-

    4. SPSpeaker50:16

       And maybe it's, it's sort of like the German thread to till now, maybe there's a single thread.

    5. APAmbi Parameswaran50:21

       Maybe. Maybe there is that, you know, building is coming from some German, uh, gene, which is there somewhere in the Guindy campus.

    6. SPSpeaker50:30

       Mm. And, and, a- you know, because we spoke about Tata earlier, maybe that sort of that, the, the fact that Ratan Tata wanted to build something from India, which is very reliable, maybe that was also a little bit of Tata thread pulling through over the years, uh, the way that the Tata Company is built. And I'm just curious to know, uh, there are these stories and legacy ideas that companies carry forward, but how much do consumers really care? And in the context of an education institute, how much does a student really care about these things when they join?

    7. APAmbi Parameswaran51:05

       You know, I'm involved with the, with the business school. I'm an adjunct professor at, uh, SPJIMR, part of Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Mumbai. Uh, as far as students are concerned, there's a lot of crowd mentality, right? Why does a person take computer science? Because someone tells them it's very good. So I don't think you can blame them today. Like, for example, why did I take chemical engineering?

    8. SPSpeaker51:32

       Mm.

    9. APAmbi Parameswaran51:34

       It's a question which, you know, you didn't ask me, right? Why did I take chemical engineering?

    10. SPSpeaker51:38

        Why did you take chemical?-

    11. APAmbi Parameswaran51:39

        Ah, exactly. Why? Why? So here's the story. In fact, when I was finishing my 11th metric exam, I wanted to become a chartered accountant, right? And I was filling up my Loyola College PUC form those days. I was about to fill, um, maths, I think commerce and economics or something, right? So my dad said, "What are you filling?" I said, "I'm going to do commerce and economics. I'm going to do cha- you know, B.Com, I'm going to do CA." He said, "No, no, no, no, no. You do IIT." So I said, "What should I do?" He said, "You do math, physics, chemistry." So I put math, physics, chemistry. Went to Loyola. So there I met some other boys from Don Bosco. They said, "What do you plan to do?" Says, "I want to do IIT." He said, "Okay, have you started doing the papers?" I said, "What do you mean papers?" He says, "Yeah, there is an entrance exam." "Yeah, but that's sometime in April, no?" "But you've not done anything?" I said, "No." Then they said, "All the best," right? So that's how. Okay, that's how I, I, I, I- my introduction to JEE was so bad.

    12. SPSpeaker53:00

        Right.

    13. APAmbi Parameswaran53:00

        And when I got my rank, I think it was, what? 49 South Zone and 247 All India, something like that. And that time everyone said, "You should take electrical LC," which is known as equivalent of, uh, computer science today, right? But I just-

    14. SPSpeaker53:18

        Logic.

    15. APAmbi Parameswaran53:18

        Yeah?

    16. SPSpeaker53:19

        Logic circuit.

    17. APAmbi Parameswaran53:20

        No, it was light current.

    18. SPSpeaker53:21

        Oh, light current.

    19. APAmbi Parameswaran53:22

        Light current and heavy current.

    20. SPSpeaker53:23

        Oh, right.

    21. APAmbi Parameswaran53:24

        HC. Ah. So I didn't get LC. So my cousin's husband was a chemical engineer from AC tech, so he had put it into my head, chemical engine is good. So I could have got mechanical, I could have got electrical, heavy current. I said chemical, so I took chemical, right? Uh, I knew nothing. I think today kids are much better. They have some idea what they want to do. They are much better than what we were... I mean, what I was. Definitely, you're a, a very different generation, but we had no clue. Today, there is a lot more information, and I think my sister's two kids, they're very clear what they want to do. "We'll do this, and then we'll do chip design," blah, blah, blah. And he's, he's what? He's all of first year, and he's just getting in. He said, "I want to do electrical engineering, and I want to get into chip design." He's saying this, and he's all of 18 years of age or 17 years of age. Seventeen years, I had no clue what is chemical, what is... You know? And then chemical, you went into chemical engineering thermodynamics class, and you got completely blown. You know, differential calculus, this, that. I mean, thermodynamics was, you know, scary. But, you know, we, we did it. So I think today kids- you know, okay, there are... I'm saying there are different types of-

    22. SPSpeaker54:45

        Yes

    23. APAmbi Parameswaran54:45

        ... they like that. So there's one group of children-... who know pretty much what they want to do. But even there, I would say that there is some rationality, but a lot of it is based on what you hear from others, and- Absolutely ... and, and a lot of, uh, emotions attached to it. Absolutely. So my son did come computer science, but he wanted to do computer science from a school, right? And he got computer science, fortunately. His first choice was IIT Bombay. He got that. But if he had not got, maybe he would have come to IIT, you know, Madras. I tried pushing him, IIT Madras is very good, IIT Madras is very good, but he, he, he took IIT Bombay. Probably because you are from- Yeah, may- maybe, maybe because he thought, "You know, I should not go to where papa has gone." But, you know, that aside, I think today, um, of all the kids who come into IIT, probably 30% know exactly what they want. And same for IIMs, and same for B-schools? Similar for B-school. B-schools is a lot more gray, right? A lot more gray, right. Uh, if you go and... You know, we did as a part of, um, the board, uh, review at IIM Calcutta. We, um, Bain & Company did a pro bono project to find out who comes to IIM Cal, uh, who rejects IIM Cal. Uh, if someone coming to IIM Cal, what has he or she rejected? So we did that little analysis, and we found that of the people who come to IIM Cal, probably up to 400, maybe 40 got IIM Ahmedabad, but didn't join. The other 360 did not get IIM Ahmedabad, okay? S- 70, 80 got IIM Bangalore, didn't join, okay? Then, of course, a large number would have got IIM Kozhikode, IIM Indore. So we knew where the pecking order was. But IIMs, I think, are a lot more amorphous. Okay. I think IIT is a lot more clear because there is a clear demarcation of each department. Yeah. So you may say: "I want computer science from IIT Bombay, but if I don't get IIT Bombay computer science, I'll go to IIT Madras- Sure ... or I'll go to IIT Delhi. I want mechanical engineering, IIT Madras. If I don't get IIT Madras mechanical engineering, I'll go to IIT Tirupati, if I get mechanical engineering." So there is a complicated algorithm- Yeah ... which is at work here. Yeah. Uh, not all. You know, some kids will purely go by rank. In this rank, what are the best I can get? I'll take that. Yeah. Some kids say: "No, I want to do chemical engineering." Yeah. Right? "And therefore, I'll go to the best university- Which offers me chemical. ... which offers me chemical." Yeah, I think, um, it's been an interesting project for us to work on. I want to shift topics, um, and last thing we are discussing for sure, because we've already crossed an hour. Um, [chuckles] the topic that stuck on everyone's mind, uh, how has AI impacted marketing? So that calls for a sip of water. [laughing] I think... Uh, yesterday I was reading an article in, in Harvard Business Review about AI in market research, right? So AI is going to be affecting all elements of marketing, whether it is, uh, consumer research, whether it is, uh, content marketing, et cetera. Early days, the belief was, AI will be used for creating cheap content. You know, you can, uh... I mean, like, this interesting example with someone from EY shared in a forum. So they came out with a white paper which was 100 pages long, about something, let's say AI in, uh, AI in finance, for example. Mm. 100 pages long. And they said: "Look, we've got 30 senior leaders in EY. We want each of them to put out a post of 100 words on their, uh, LinkedIn and Twitter- Mm ... thing. And the post should all be from the white paper, but should not be repetitive." And they gave this assignment to an OpenAI tool, uh, whatever, some AI tool they were using, and they got it, right? Within a few minutes, they had 30 different chunks of thing, right, from AI, which was very clear, like quotable quotes, right? So content marketing was the first place where we thought it would be useful, but it's going to be everywhere, right? I mean, we're gonna, you know, uh, in the article on, um, consumer research, which I was reading yesterday. Uh, earlier days when you had to do consumer interviews- Mm ... right, uh, you go with a pad, write down stuff, or you go with a dictaphone, record it, right? And then you come back, transcribe- Transcribe ... it, read it. Today, it all happens like that. Mm. As a result, your consumer research is going to be speeded up. The things are gonna- So what I think will happen is, across the domain, like even films, I mean, ad films or content creation, you know, you can get script ideas. 20 script ideas you can get like that. All of them will be bad, okay, but there'll be some gem somewhere there, which you can take and make it into a good script, right? So we're going to be using AI tools like we use PowerPoint and spreadsheets. You know, when I, when I started my, you know, journey in, uh, in advertising-... even right through IIT and IIM, one had never touched a computer, because computer used to be behind a closed door.

    24. SPSpeaker1:00:58

        Yeah.

    25. APAmbi Parameswaran1:00:59

        And you sent those little cards, right?

    26. SPSpeaker1:01:00

        Punch cards.

    27. APAmbi Parameswaran1:01:01

        Punch cards, right? You get the... So you never touched it. So one had to learn how to use a, a, a PC, how to do spreadsheet, how to do PowerPoint, how to do Word. Today, it's there everywhere.

    28. SPSpeaker1:01:15

        Right.

    29. APAmbi Parameswaran1:01:15

        So I think, uh, all of us will have to learn how to use AI tools, right?

    30. SPSpeaker1:01:22

        Fair enough. Um, I get what you're saying. I have one very specific question that I want to ask you. If it's accessible to everyone, and if the intent of brand building is to have a distinct story, then how can a brand use a generic AI composition to be distinctive? Won't that be accessible to everyone, and then everyone will have the same AI story?
19. 1:04:00 – 1:05:37

    Closing Thoughts

    1. APAmbi Parameswaran1:04:00

       AI will, will make those mistakes. But so earlier, as a young intern, one's job was to take minutes. Now, one's job will be to correct the minutes being written by-

    2. SPSpeaker1:04:16

       MST

    3. APAmbi Parameswaran1:04:17

       ... MST, right? Or, or Zoom, right? Which means you will have to listen carefully, and you have to take some points, and then when the AI-generated minutes come, you should be able to correct it.

    4. SPSpeaker1:04:30

       Mm. So now what I do on calls is, because I know that the transcription will happen, I'll- at some point, I'll stop everyone and say, "Okay, now for the AI, let me give you a summary of what's happened so far." And I will say it out so that AI picks that part up. [chuckles]

    5. APAmbi Parameswaran1:04:42

       Okay. Yeah, good. Yeah, I mean, you, you... Yeah, so you hacked it, right?

    6. SPSpeaker1:04:46

       Yeah.

    7. APAmbi Parameswaran1:04:46

       So that's a hack, which you have to do. So people are not doing it as yet.

    8. SPSpeaker1:04:51

       Yeah. This is great. Thank you so much, and, uh, grateful that you gave us the time, and, uh, um, I'll be there at your book launch tomorrow.

    9. APAmbi Parameswaran1:05:00

       Sure. Thank you. Uh, thank you, Amritaj, for, uh, inviting me, and, uh, you and your team, I think you're doing great work for IIT, uh, Madras. Please continue to do the great work. Build that Ask, uh, you know, IIT, uh, website, and I'm sure, you know, it's a long journey, and I think you're on the right path. So all the very best, and thank you once again for inviting me onto your podcast.

    10. SPSpeaker1:05:26

        Thanks, Ambi. Next week, we'll be back on campus. For this episode, please like, share, subscribe. Thank you. [upbeat music]

Episode duration: 1:05:37