Prof. Kamakoti, Director, IIT Madras |"No substitute for hard work to become a great engineer"|Ep.23

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 0:00 if you get a great score in JEE rank, you can join IIT Madras with some great score. But if you fail in JEE, there's also a chance that you become a director. Our, uh, computer science, uh, department have been very quite conscious to make these courses quite focused so that the student can clearly get a career path within computer science. We have this entire innovation and entrepreneurship stack. If you come with an idea, we will give you the way to make it a unicorn, provided you work hard. [upbeat music]

Unknown Host 0:53 Hi, my name is Amrit. We've heard that IIT Madras is the best place to build. [upbeat music] So we've come down to the Sudan Chunker Innovation Hub. We want to meet some people. These are builders. We want to talk to them about their work, and also ask them, what makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music]

Unknown Host 1:25 Hi, welcome to The Best Place to Build podcast. Today is the big one. We are sitting with Professor Kamakoti. He's the director of IIT Madras. IIT Madras is NIRF number one for the last eight years, so there's a lot to cover. He's also one of India's top semiconductor research, um, scientists. So welcome to the podcast, Professor.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:43 Namaste. Morning.

Unknown Host 1:44 Professor, I would like to divide our time together into three parts. First, I want to talk to the Professor Kamakoti, the teacher, and the academic, and then we'll talk to, uh, you were the chairman of JEE earlier, so that'll be the second part, and last, we'll talk to the director. So I want to ask, uh, with the basics, Professor, what do you teach? What are your research interests?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 2:03 So my, uh, research interests are three. One is I teach architecture. I work on computer architecture, that's my bread and butter, and I also worked on information security.

Unknown Host 2:17 Okay, so if we go into it a bit, um, if I'm a student at IIT Madras, and I want to take your course, which course will that be?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 2:23 Should be Computer Architecture VLSI, I think.

Unknown Host 2:25 Nice. Are you still taking that course? I've heard from your students that sometimes they're called at 6:00 in the morning, and-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 2:31 Uh, that was very early days, where we really wanted to experiment that how early can we... So always I believe that morning 4:00 to 8:00 is the most productive time. Your brain is fresh, provided you have slept well. [laughing] We just have this body called a suprabatham slot.

Unknown Host 2:49 Suprabatham slot, okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 2:51 And we start at 7:00 and go up to 8:00, or 6:30 to 8:00. Actually, student enjoyed. I did get good attendance in the morning.

Unknown Host 2:59 Nice.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 3:00 The, we, we did twice a, twice a week. This is sometime, somewhere in last part of the first decade, like 2010, 2011, and a little bit 20...

Unknown Host 3:11 Okay, okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 3:12 I was experimenting that. But I still teach, right? Uh, so this semester is my 50th semester at IIT Madras.

Unknown Host 3:19 Oh, wow! Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 3:20 Uh, so 49 semesters have passed. One semester, that is last semester, I thought

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 3:26 I did get another person, another VLSI person, who can take these courses, so he said he will teach that course, a cache for VLSI, which I've been teaching continuously for the last 25 years. So then I felt so bad on teaching in a semester. [laughing]

Unknown Host 3:43 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 3:44 Almost I felt like I'm getting Alzheimer's, but, uh, so again, this semester I started teaching testing.

Unknown Host 3:50 And this course that you're taking, the VLSI course and the VLSI group at IIT Madras is very popular, right? A lot of students want to come here, lots of PhD students. I'm- I've met your PhD student, Sharan. Uh, he runs a startup. Um, a- and I understand that there is a group called RISE Group. Can you tell us a little bit about it?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 4:08 Yeah, yeah. So, um, very early, around 2005, 2006, so first I was the hire after quite some time in the department, so was getting faculty for computer science was an ordeal at that point of time. So, uh, after almost seven, eight years, I was the first hire in the department. After that, uh, Professor Ravindran joined, and then Shankar Balachandran, hundred percent also joined, so. So we three decided that, you know, systems down the line will become more autonomous. System down the line will become more reconfigurable, uh, and they also have to become intelligent. Okay, so, so that's why we formed this, uh, Reconfigurable Intelligent Systems Engineering Lab.

Unknown Host 4:56 Reconfigurable Intelligent Systems Engineering.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 4:58 Okay, yes. And that we formed around 2005, 2006. Uh, early funding came from alumni, and then we had some grants from DST, and then the whole thing picked

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 5:12 up. Then we... Some of the big deliverables that have come out of RISE Lab is, uh, the, the Shakti project, one of the biggest deliverables.

Unknown Host 5:21 So the Shakti project is India's first indigenously-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 5:25 That's right

Unknown Host 5:25 ... built, built microprocessor.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 5:28 RISC.

Unknown Host 5:28 RISC microprocessor.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 5:28 Today we have three, actually four successful depot, that the four chips have been made and to prove the quality of the, the microprocessor. Multiple startups have started using it.

Unknown Host 5:40 Yeah, so I read that there's Mindgrove, InCore, Vyoma, Shakra.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 5:44 So we are building this entire ecosystem, uh, right? If you want to develop the products in the country, there should be design experts, there must be people who can code software onto it, there should be people who can verify this, there must be people who can tape it out and make PCB, et cetera.... there should also be people who can work at the system. So, uh, developing application is one, developing operating system and system related, uh, you know, uh, software systems. So this was our early idea. So we have these five interesting companies, six interesting companies. So Mindgrove, uh, InCore, which also came out of our lab group, um, they are now into developing, designing the core, optimizing the core. Um, we can call them like arm. Arm basically makes the core and give to many people.

Unknown Host 6:35 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 6:35 We can say the arm of

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 6:37 Shakti will be InCore. Then we have Mindgrove, which actually makes SoCs, right? They take the, they take the processor core, they also optimize the processor, and then they also put peripherals together and make chips that could be sold, that could be used by every basic device. So we call InCore the Qualcomm of, uh, you know, Shakti, right? So first Qualcomm-

Unknown Host 6:58 Mindgrove will be the-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 6:59 Mindgrove, sorry. Mindgrove, Mindgrove as equal power.

Unknown Host 7:02 Understood.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:03 Then we-

Unknown Host 7:04 So, so Professor, may I, if I may interrupt a bit, uh, I know you're saying this, of course you are in the thick of things, but the... Our audience may not know, um, the s- the countries across the world which who can make microprocessor on their own, that's not a lot, right? That's a small number.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:20 That's a small number, yes.

Unknown Host 7:21 So with the Shakti Project, and I think there are some CDAC projects also, with these projects, we enter that space, right?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:27 In a very big way. So, so if you also look at the microprocessor, the servers that you see, actually, if you see, it's a very small percentage of the microprocessor market.

Unknown Host 7:36 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:36 The largest, uh, thing comes from the low-end systems-

Unknown Host 7:39 Mm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:40 ... which are these embedded controllers-

Unknown Host 7:41 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:42 ... starting from your remote, like-

Unknown Host 7:43 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:43 ... simplest processor, car key. From that it starts, and each of them are very sensitive components in the thing. If your car key is failing, then, you know, somebody can steal your car.

Unknown Host 7:53 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:54 So, so microprocessor actually plays a very important role across the segments-

Unknown Host 7:58 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 7:59 ... from a least small embedded system to a large system. So when we consume the Shakti Project, we actually look at this entire family of micro. So we have something called a E-class, which is an embedded class, then we have a C-class, which is basically a controller class processor. Then we have a I-class, which a bit ca- you know, which can go into servers, mobile phones, et cetera.

Unknown Host 8:19 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 8:19 Uh, so, so then we need people to design it, as I told you, InCore, uh, designs the core. Mindgrove also designs the core, but they also make chips around.

Unknown Host 8:28 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 8:28 Then we have somebody who, when we design, then we need somebody to verify that. So there's a company, Vyoma. Basically, uh, it's also come out of our lab. Our own MS student is heading it, and, uh, that will look at the verification aspect of this, uh, whether your processor, designed the process working correctly, is it, you know, meeting all the standards, meeting the patterns, et cetera. Then we need people who can convert this, uh, software design into a mask, because initially you describe the hardware in software-

Unknown Host 8:58 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 8:58 ... and then it gets into a mask, and then you go and make, fabricate it.

Unknown Host 9:03 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 9:03 So this entire aspect of what you call as physical design, right? And then making the PCB motherboard, mounting it, and putting software, that we have Shakra.

Unknown Host 9:14 Okay. So you're saying that from the work at RISE labs, a lot of startups have come, but o- in different parts of the-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 9:19 Different parts which is necessary to make a system.

Unknown Host 9:22 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 9:22 It is not just a microchip. Finally, SecureWeave is a very interesting company. It look at security aspects, because every hardware that you are going to sell must be secure.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 9:32 If they are not secure, then it's, it's not going to work out. So right from your embedded, your microcontroller, to your server class, security is of prime importance. And, uh, Shak- uh, SecureWeave works on some of the very interesting security aspects, they design separation requirements, et cetera. So overall, I have to give you a laptop, not one processor-

Unknown Host 9:54 Right.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 9:55 -and lab.

Unknown Host 9:55 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 9:55 For me to do that, we have now five or six companies which can hel- help to achieve the system.

Unknown Host 10:01 I understand. So I want to talk about two angles here. One is the startup angle, the academia startup handshake, but also before that, now India has a India Semiconductor Mission, and, uh, uh, the work done at IIT Madras sort of almost, uh, enables that in many ways, right? Uh, it, it's a big deal. So with the India Semiconductor Mission, what will India be able to achieve?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 10:22 Uh, in India Semiconductor Mission, uh, we are looking at, one is India has a very powerful design house, which India is so, right? Where those s- designs come, it can come from many institutions, it can come from small industries, large industries, and also multinational. But people who work in these multinationals, who are making these big, big designs, are Indians, who were trained at IITs and NITs, and other institutions, who go and join these jobs, and they are doing it. So ultimately, as a country, we have succeeded in getting our human capital, assembling our human capital, to do some very, very complex designs and to successfully debut out and deliver a system that's working.

Unknown Host 11:01 But for other companies?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 11:02 For other companies, but somehow the system is working.

Unknown Host 11:04 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 11:05 You have a laptop, I have a mobile phone. It's all working, right? And icon- there'll be surely a significant contribution of Indians to all of this.

Unknown Host 11:13 I have heard from others, your students, that in some companies, like large companies, there's a Professor Kamakoti corridor, [chuckles] where there's a lot of your students who are-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 11:21 Right. So because VLSI courses are taught by, you know, some, some of our institutions, not may... Every institution do not have very strong VLSI, but some of our IITs and NITs do have. And so this is from this lot only they get into these, uh-

Unknown Host 11:36 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 11:37 ... ca- curriculum. So we- it's almost, uh, quite coincidentally, actually, I visited one of the big companies and, uh, a particular office, and just let- just looked at the photo of all the employees working in that particular section, and about 84 of our students are all over, yes. [chuckles]

Unknown Host 11:53 Um, so the, so, uh, just to give you an overall context, you're a professor of computer science. Uh, a student in computer science who joins at a BTech level, what are the courses he takes? What does he learn, and how does, how does he specialize?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 12:07 So I- IIT Madras, per se, our computer science, uh-... department, they've been very quite conscious to make these courses, uh, you know, quite focused so that the student can clearly get a career path within computer science. So within computer science, if you look at, there is something called hardcore theoretical class, and we are one of the most successful theoretical computer science department, uh, especially at the undergraduate level. Imagine a second year or a third year student publishing in some top-notch journals.

Unknown Host 12:44 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 12:44 Unheard of at some days. I'm talking about even '80s, late '80s, their students were published at the second year of their undergraduation. They publish in top-notch journals, right? Second, third years, right? Many times the project work was like a PhD presentation, right? So this is the, this is the standard of theoretical computer science that we have at, uh, computer science. I, I also did my PhD here, so I had a opportunity to interact with several BTech students in the part of my stay here, and we have joint publications with BTech students. And all of them are in great positions at different parts of the world. Many of them are professors. So main- mainly theoretical computer scientists tend to become, you know, academicians.

Unknown Host 13:30 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 13:31 And, uh, so that's a very great part, and we have some of the best theoretical computer scientists, and some of it very interesting. So yesterday we gave the M Alumni Achiever Award. Uh, the person actually graduated from, uh, here in 2010, right, as a

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 13:49 computer science, and he's a PGM also. And, uh, today he's a professor at Carnegie Mellon. Full person.

Unknown Host 13:55 I can attest to this. My closest friend when I was in campus was, uh, rank 28. He was in computer science, did theoretical computer science. Today, teaches at, uh, a university in US.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 14:05 Yeah, yeah. So it's kind of CMU is one of top university, and he's in our top group step. Okay, so, so what we see is that, uh, theoretical computer science is one good path which-

Unknown Host 14:16 Okay

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 14:17 ... takes you, and mostly they do a academic career, but then they also do lot, lot more of, uh, you know, consultancy and stuff like that. So there, there's a very prosperous, uh, journey there. Uh, but second, uh, one is more of the system side, okay? Where people work. So for the systems, uh, side, we have a very nice set of courses that make them very strong in systems, right? And third semester we do s- a course called Man to Tetris, right? You start with the basic gate, you know, plus two kids can understand this. It's a NAND gate. You start-

Unknown Host 14:53 Oh, NAND gate.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 14:54 Yeah.

Unknown Host 14:54 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 14:55 And from that NAND gate, just using NAND gates, where NAND, it's an universal gate, right? Can ... You can construct any Boolean function using NAND gate. From there, you start building some small electronic components, then you integrate the electronic components to form the microarchitecture, and that now it will be a simulation model. So you have a simulator to simulate that architecture hardware, so it'll behave like a hardware. So it's a software that behaves like a hardware, and that's what you call it as a simulator.

Unknown Host 15:25 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 15:26 Then you have, you have a small machine instructions for it. It will be in ones and zeros. Then you write a code which would assembled for it, that you write something as add some two registers, then it'll convert into binary. Then you have a low-level virtual machine called a stack machine, and you write programs in the stack machine, ask your translator to translate into this assembly language, use your assembler to make it into machine four and simulate and see.

Unknown Host 15:55 Nice.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 15:56 Then finally you have a, a Java. Many of you know Java, right? So Java's abridged language called Jack, and then we write a compiler for ... So people write code in Jack. These kids design a compiler, which will compile to the low-level virtual machine, then use a translator, which will again convert it into assembly language. Use your assembler and make it into binary and simulate on the central. So the entire systems stack, at the end of third semester, the kids know about how the entire system works. So they understand, uh, basic digital hardware, they understand microarchitecture, they understand operating systems, they understand compilers-

Unknown Host 16:38 Mm-hmm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 16:38 ... and they know a decent level of programming, object-related programs.

Unknown Host 16:43 This is fantastic. I think a lot of people think that computer science is coding, right? But that's just at the, at the top level, and then there are all these levels below it.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 16:50 And all levels also are coding till you come to the architecture, but the coding will become more and more hardware-specific as you come down.

Unknown Host 16:58 Right.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 16:59 Right? Okay, now this is one person. Then we teach a, one, uh, a very interesting course in the fourth semester on computer organization and architecture, which will talk about that hardware and its interface. It is a toy machine that you do. Now you build upon the toy machine. And the fifth semester, there is an operating system course.

Unknown Host 17:19 Yes.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 17:20 We are different, right? We don't teach, uh, some, some theory there, but we actually make them do a lot of practicals. Uh, you know, we take an abridged version of Linux and put it on a system.

Unknown Host 17:31 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 17:31 So that, that's what we do.

Unknown Host 17:33 So-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 17:33 And the last one, last one is a compiler course.

Unknown Host 17:35 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 17:36 The strong compiler course. So

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 17:38 when you look at the Computer Science curriculum, we have, we te- on the system side, we teach them every part of this journey. That will be very interesting because it is sort of very unique, right? Few IITs do that. So, and this is the second part. The third part is on the application side. Like, you know, we have speech processing, we have language processing, we have AI, right? Some fundamental concepts of AI, then we have databases, we have networking, communication. All these things also come back of your application side.

Unknown Host 18:08 Application side.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 18:09 So, so we have, we have theoretical computer science ba- basket, we have a systems basket-... and we have the application baskets. And people can, uh, these, the core courses, everybody take, takes all the core courses. So at the end of your fifth to sixth semester, you can decide where you want to go. Should I go this way or I should I go that way? And then you can make your choice and do your thing.

Unknown Host 18:35 So the VLSI, uh, part of things will come under systems?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 18:39 VLSI part will come under systems. So VLSI part will become as electives.

Unknown Host 18:43 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 18:43 Right, so, so they can take CAD for VLSI, digital design test.

Unknown Host 18:47 So I'm guessing in each of these three things you can specialize in-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 18:50 If you want, you can specialize.

Unknown Host 18:52 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 18:52 So there are some core courses that are common across these three. All the core courses, all the students have to take. For example, the Nand to Tetris, well, I would call it Foundation of Computer Science, uh, the computer organization architecture, and then the operating system compilers. Everybody has to take-

Unknown Host 19:08 Okay

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 19:08 ... that's, that's fundamental. If you say, "I'm a computer science and engineer," right? The engineering aspect actually talks about this. And there are some courses like discrete mathematics, okay, from mathematical foundation to computer science, uh, data structural, that then touches on the theory side, they have to take. Then there are some courses like networking, database. More on the application side, you see more electives than core. These two systems and, uh, hardware, uh, systems and, uh, theoretical computers, these are the real core courses every student is mandated to take.

Unknown Host 19:39 Okay, understood. And be- because you mentioned on the application side, you mentioned a little bit of AI. I want to understand now, there's a B.Tech in AI also, so that, uh, that'll be... How is that different?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 19:51 Yeah. So, so we have an AI and, uh, data analytics, B.Tech in AI and Data Analytics. Uh, so this... What has happened is, AI per se is not now just

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 20:02 computer science. AI has spread across multiple disciplines. AI is everywhere, all pervasive, okay? Uh, so, uh, now every department has their own DNA of how they use AI. What are the data that are available? What is the type of predictions that they are looking at? What is the pres- type of decision-making they want to do? Where they want AI to help them? These are all different stories.

Unknown Host 20:26 Hmm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 20:27 And each department has their own language of AI. So I can make a, a language model, so what's a domain-specific language model for bioengineering? I can make a domain-specific language model for electrical drawing, domain-specific language model for management studies, domain-specific language model for history.

Unknown Host 20:44 Understood. So the AI used in, say, uh, by a stock market analyst or a AI used by a geneticist-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 20:50 By a scientist, a chemistry and physics, there's a difference.

Unknown Host 20:52 Difference, okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 20:53 So, so that to encompass all these things and put, so I need to have one agenda, right, uh, which will- which can appreciate this cross-disciplinary work and focus, and so they become scientists, they become engineers, technocrats, who can handle this diversity.

Unknown Host 21:13 Hmm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 21:14 And that is precisely what we are attempting in the AI data science, uh-

Unknown Host 21:19 Department

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 21:19 ... uh, DCI, right?

Unknown Host 21:20 Understood.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 21:21 Data and AI. And this, uh, uh, basically the B.Tech cross is, is basically on data sci- uh, AI and data analytics.

Unknown Host 21:32 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 21:33 Right? Well, analytics, uh, becomes extremely important, right? Uh, and to do this analytics, we need quite a significant, uh, you know, circus, right? Um, so these are some of the very interesting things that you will see in the ADI, uh, the-

Unknown Host 21:51 One, one semester of... One year of students are already in the course, this will be the second year?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 21:56 Yeah. You can, you can have a podcast with some of those kids. They'll-

Unknown Host 21:59 We did... Oh, yeah, we should call the kids. [chuckles]

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 22:02 Right. Call the kids, right?

Unknown Host 22:02 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 22:03 The kids will tell you much more stories. It's a world-class course, I'm saying. So we have, we've been... This syllabus has been vetted by all the top-notch data scientists and AI experts across the country, and we- across the world, right? And we have a very, uh, you know, uh, very strong, um, uh, so Wadhwani ISCO. Wadhwani is, uh-

Unknown Host 22:24 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 22:24 ... again-

Unknown Host 22:25 Alumnus, yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 22:26 ... alumnus. He very graciously has given us, uh, hundred, 110 program. Yeah, so-

Unknown Host 22:32 Actually, the, on that topic, I don't think that everybody knows that for a lot of AI work, a lot of money is required because you need-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 22:39 Yeah

Unknown Host 22:39 ... the data clusters, you need the, uh, you need the infrastructure to be able to do those algorithms and run that.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 22:44 Yeah. More, see, uh, so establishing an AI department, it's easy, provided you have good money to hire people.

Unknown Host 22:51 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 22:52 And hire people, hire along with the TPUs. So we need lot of storage, we need... That, that's the money that is required today because of the hardware and the requirements, and that's the... Otherwise, setting up data science department, we did not face any big difficulty. Unlike, you know, setting up the medical sciences department, where we had invested more, more than, uh, 160 crore stock so far to bring the department to shape. The medical science is a very big, beautiful field now. So we have world-class curriculum in, uh, Bachelor of Science in Medical Science and Technology, and we have seen some very top students joining that

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 23:26 bachelor course.

Unknown Host 23:27 We met, uh, Professor Ravindran on the podcast earlier. He's the head of the Department of AI and Data Science. I was checking him... First of all, that podcast was really good because professor is such a, uh, easy person to talk to, and he's, uh, he's a great professor.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 23:40 Yeah.

Unknown Host 23:40 Teaches really well. And, uh, so, uh, you, you imagine that he'll be very busy-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 23:45 Hmm

Unknown Host 23:45 ... but he actually responds, and he gives time-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 23:48 Sure

Unknown Host 23:48 ... which is great. Um, also, uh, today, you know what happens to the students when they join ITs and research groups? They check everybody's Google, Google Scholar-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 23:57 Yeah

Unknown Host 23:57 ... uh, account, every professor's account, and, uh, Professor Ravindran, of course, is very high on that.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 24:02 Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Host 24:03 Uh, he's a very accomplished, uh, researcher. On this medical science thing, so now what are the courses that, uh, the Medical Science Department offers?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 24:12 So we have one BS course, Bachelor of Science in Medical Sciences and Engineering, BS-... uh, BS in MSC, Medical Sciences and-

Unknown Host 24:22 Okay

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 24:23 ... Medical Sciences and Engineering.

Unknown Host 24:24 But this, this admission is through?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 24:26 Through IIT, the IISER Aptitude Test.

Unknown Host 24:28 IISER Aptitude Test, okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 24:29 So the, so there we get very good student. There have been last two batches, now the third batch is going. So the time is flying fast, just like we started this course yesterday.

Unknown Host 24:38 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 24:39 But now we have the, the third batch is going to join, uh, in July.

Unknown Host 24:42 And before the BS in Medical Science, which is of course offered by the new department, there was also biotechnology and bioscience engineering.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 24:48 Yeah. So if you look at basically, um, you know, uh, medical, uh, stack is in four, right? First, you have this anatomy, physiology, and all those, uh, education of that. Then the engineering modeling, right? Engineering modeling of the, uh, of the human body.

Unknown Host 25:11 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 25:13 Right. So describe heart as a set of partial differential equations. [chuckles]

Unknown Host 25:19 Okay. [chuckles]

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 25:20 You get my point, right?

Unknown Host 25:21 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 25:21 The mathematical modeling, it's almost, uh... It is mathematics. In mathematics and some amount of physics plus chemistry, with basic science, biology. But the d- the model of the modeling of the human body is the second stage.

Unknown Host 25:35 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 25:36 The third one, as, uh, this I got from my friend Srinivas Chakravarthy. He's now a faculty at Medical Sciences Center. This, this is his definition-

Unknown Host 25:46 Mm-hmm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 25:47 ... which quite logical and reasonable. So third part has, uh, you know, the medical devices and pharmacology, right? And the last one is basically the clinical trials. So MBBS, uh, talks from, uh, you know, teaches anatomy, physiology, and then directly goes to clinical practice.

Unknown Host 26:10 Hmm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 26:12 While the biomedical engineering others, we talk a lot about devices, we talk about some amount of pharmacology, some amount of modeling, and then we take it from the second-

Unknown Host 26:23 Nice

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 26:23 ... right, anatomy. But the second part, solely the second part, right? I, I would, uh, like the viewers to study a book called Virtual You. Actually, the, the author of the book was here sometime, uh, called Virtual You, and, uh, I think that'll be, uh, that is the thought of the title song for the BS in Medical Sciences and Engineering.

Unknown Host 26:48 Understood.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 26:49 Where you make the entire human body, right? You want to mathematically model, giving engineering models.

Unknown Host 26:58 I-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 26:58 And that is what this curriculum is all about.

Unknown Host 27:00 I want also a little point out here that in terms of engineering model- mo- modeling and medical device, especially medical devices, India has not been very strong, and but we are a huge consumer of medical devices-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 27:12 Yes

Unknown Host 27:12 ... right? So these engineers who are coming out of here and the work that is done here, uh, this is going to really, uh, boom! in the near future.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 27:21 Exactly. See, somewhere during COVID, we realized the need for Atmanirbhar, uh, medical technologies, right? When we were looking at ventilators, many things. That, that's time when the Honorable Prime Minister came out with the National Digital Health Mission-

Unknown Host 27:38 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 27:38 ... NDHM. So I got, uh, I'm still part of some committees of the NDHM. Now, uh, NDHM per se, uh, is the gateway for medical devices. So medical devices, we have a

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 27:56 lot of important things, like we have one dentist, there is one small rod that they give to keep your mouth open, right?

Unknown Host 28:01 Yeah, the plied itself is, yeah-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 28:03 Imported.

Unknown Host 28:04 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 28:04 Okay, so we start, so ninety-nine percent probably we are importing, and slowly... But vaccine, which was Atmanirbhar, gave us some sort of, uh, some, some sort of comfort zone that we can be good at medical technology. I think that, uh, that, that's really-

Unknown Host 28:23 In fact, uh, I remember now at two, three years back, we traveled together to Hyderabad for an Ask IITM event, and somebody asked you a question, and, uh, you were saying that, "Everybody cannot become a computer scientist. COVID was not invented by a coder, it was invented by a-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 28:37 And the vaccine was by a-

Unknown Host 28:38 I'm, I'm so sorry. The COVID vaccine, [chuckles] not by-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 28:41 Yeah.

Unknown Host 28:41 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 28:41 But it's, uh, so-

Unknown Host 28:42 Bioscience tool.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 28:43 The bio things. So, so, so this, uh, whole effort of trying to indigenize medical technology, extremely important.

Unknown Host 28:52 Interesting.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 28:53 Uh, and that's what we feel that the BS students will aspire to be.

Unknown Host 28:59 Professor, you have an overview of everything, and I want to ask you, we spoke about the research coming out of RISE Labs becoming commercial, and now we are talking of the relationship between the engineers who will come, and they'll do something commercial. The... I've heard you speak about the academia, industry, handoff, and how in IIT Madras has become like a big thing, right? Can you tell us about that a little bit?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 29:20 So, uh, we start with this building. So this is the CFI building where we are sitting, the first floor, and you see up, you can see that's the NIRMAN. Second floor is the Gopalakrishnan Deshpande Center. You can just see from here-

Unknown Host 29:30 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 29:30 ... okay, all these are here. So you can focus the camera at that point, and-

Unknown Host 29:35 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 29:35 ... so the viewers know where we are. Okay, so, and then we have the entrepreneurship cell, which is also quite, uh, uh... So we have this entire innovation and entrepreneurship stack.

Unknown Host 29:47 Yeah. So that's CFI, NIRMAN, Gopalakrishnan Deshpande Center-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 29:52 CFI, NIRMAN, all the domain-specific incubators, and then finally, the Gopalakrishnan Deshpande Center. We have this six nice, well-knitted stuffs, and this will be if you come with an idea, brother, yeah, but, and you- we will give you the way to make it a unicorn, but whether you work hard.

Unknown Host 30:15 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 30:15 So this is the answer that we are giving. I mean, that's what you are seeing, all the, all the kids who are working here-

Unknown Host 30:22 ... Professor, that's the Raftaar team, and we are recording this in the week of Ather announcing its IPO.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 30:28 IPO.

Unknown Host 30:28 And they started as Raftaar students, right?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 30:30 Yeah, they are also Raftaar students.

Unknown Host 30:31 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 30:31 And, uh, so race cars actually, uh, give you the inputs for a passenger car. Today, whatever you see in the passenger car was once upon a time in the-

Unknown Host 30:41 Race

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 30:41 ... race car. Now they are working on the EV-

Unknown Host 30:44 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 30:44 ... electric, uh, race car, and the next generation of electric car will basically, you know, spin out of some of their very-

Unknown Host 30:52 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 30:52 ... findings. So, so this is what we do here. So if you have an idea, ..., uh, we'll take you to the, uh, final stage. So this is, this is very clear message that we are giving here. Now, uh, so I thought, "Okay, what will happen?" See, if you see, let's see there. No, we started where the roadmap-

Unknown Host 31:13 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 31:13 ... for 2000, uh, '07.

Unknown Host 31:15 Two thou- Professor, in 2007, the CFI committee, you were a member, right?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 31:18 Yeah.

Unknown Host 31:19 Uh, it's so long back, but it feels like almost yesterday.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 31:21 Yesterday. Now we have, we have seen this around 18 years of journey, you know, 2003 to, uh... No, what 18? More than that. 2007, yeah, 2007, 18 years. 2005, we are here. See, now can we... So first thing is, yeah, this chicken and egg problem. The chicken is patents. It, so either we fix the patents. So

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 31:43 this year we have 417 patents. Last year, 386. So we have crossed a patent a day. But that's something, it's good, right? When I joined as the associate dean in 2018, uh, Professor Gettu was the dean then. He said, "You take care of the in- intellectual property." At one of the time, we had some 10 people in the IP cell. Some two or three people will come today, work like a dental clinic, okay? So we have [chuckles] big queues sitting there, and every day I see a lot of emails, uh, floating around, and that essentially has seen a big transformation today. Patent a day has now.

Unknown Host 32:17 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 32:17 People are working very hard for that, too. We keep it up. That is the josh.

Unknown Host 32:22 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 32:22 See, now again, I say, okay, this horse also ran that, uh, so that... But, uh, see, as an institute, we have to start seeing something different, okay? Just coming here, studying, taking a job, going, settling in life, if that's the way we have to run a premier institute, I don't think it's worth it, okay? And we want a change. So what will we do with this? First thing is patents. So we, we need to generate more and more intellectual property for the country, right? Today, technology superpower means how much of the standard essential patents your country holds. Today, some of the countries are big, they are powerful because they hold some of the standard essential patents, meaning when you do anything in that area, which is adhering to a standard, we have to pay royalty. Yep.

Unknown Host 33:10 Let me give an example. The Bluetooth patent is held by one company, and then anybody using Bluetooth has to-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 33:16 Has to pay

Unknown Host 33:16 ... pay that company. Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 33:17 Exactly, like, so now we are doing that. And what do you mean by holding the patent? We have to file the patent and get it approved, and-

Unknown Host 33:24 Right

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 33:25 ... appreciate. So that we are doing. As a very big, uh, venture, we are doing that, uh, stuff here. Now, what will we do with this patents? We can't just be hanging. I say I have, so, yeah, right? So that's the next question that will come. So the next, uh, thing is that we thought, okay, Startup Shatam, because we have 100 startups. So this year, I thought it would take four, five years to reach this stage. This year we have 105, 104 startups incubated.

Unknown Host 33:55 Nice.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 33:56 Right. In which more than 40, 50% are from IIT student, but we also open, so IITM for all. Lol. Uh, you know, we are taking anybody who wants to come in, any Indian who wants to innovate and-

Unknown Host 34:07 But they have to make a tech startup.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 34:09 They have to make a tech startup.

Unknown Host 34:10 Yes.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 34:11 Tech means... Tech is also fintech. Humanities, we have this-

Unknown Host 34:14 Yeah, but you know, to quote the minister, uh, recently, "It cannot be an ice cream startup."

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 34:18 Oh, ice cream.

Unknown Host 34:19 Unless it's a, they're making ice cream.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 34:21 Deep core startups.

Unknown Host 34:22 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 34:22 Deep core startups.

Unknown Host 34:23 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 34:23 So we have spread across agriculture, you know, health, uh, space, quantum. We have two quantum startups here in incubator, say, humanities. So deep core startups, like Agnikul, the patent reaction-

Unknown Host 34:35 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 34:35 ... was a very interesting startup. Avishkar, Hackerloop, Tutor, uh, Securie, all these companies, these four, five companies I mentioned that have come out of Ice Trappers and companies that have come out of mechanical engineering. Planets or Solana, all these, everybody has a, has a very deep core technology.

Unknown Host 34:53 Mm-hmm. It's nice. I, I feel like when I was in campus, 2003 to '08, um, maybe there was a lot of josh, but that pathway to go all the way was not there. So I also feel like many time parents and students think of IIT as a conduit. "I'll

Unknown Host 35:10 get a admit, I'll get a placement, I'll go somewhere else." This path in the middle is just one temporary... But it's not like that now.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 35:18 No. Yesterday, as, uh, yesterday was our institute day, and we had, uh, 10 of our distinguished alumnus. We gave a DAA awards yesterday, uh, from academia, industry, public service. And, uh, Dr. Somnath was there. The NRF chief, uh, Shivpu, uh, is our, uh, alumnus. '93, he B.Tech. in Computer Science. So we, we just saw that in their, you know, type of alumnus who has come out of IIT Madras, just getting a job is not our ultimate goal. That we have seen. So, so that is only we change this placement cell we had. In your days, you would have had this-

Unknown Host 35:58 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 35:58 ... even, yeah, as placement office and cell. We said, "No, this is a career pathway center."

Unknown Host 36:03 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 36:03 We gave it a different... First, everything starts in a name. Naming is very-

Unknown Host 36:08 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 36:08 So we started a, a career pathway center.

Unknown Host 36:10 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 36:11 And students are looking at four, five options.

Unknown Host 36:13 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 36:14 When I did a very careful survey on the convocation day, where we really know where you are, right? On the convocation day, because I'm giving you a degree certificate.

Unknown Host 36:22 Mm-hmm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 36:22 That is a formal certificate saying, now you are an alumni.

Unknown Host 36:25 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 36:25 Right. No more a student, you are now an alumni.... then that day you come back and tell me, uh, okay, where you are, right? So convocation survey, we did in '23, '24, so because I have always have a suspicion that people register for placement, right? They don't even sit for 20% of the company.

Unknown Host 36:40 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 36:41 And, uh, sometimes they some say, "Sir, we are not interested." They come and attend interview and say, "No, we are not interested. We are having other options." And middle time they also withdraw. They say, "I'm not interested," yeah. Uh, right? But they, they register for placement in, say, August, because August they have not decided. Somewhere we start around July, August, we-

Unknown Host 36:59 Placement season starts in, yeah, August-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 37:01 It is somewhere, but-

Unknown Host 37:02 And goes on to Decem-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 37:03 ... yeah, registration starts in August.

Unknown Host 37:04 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 37:05 And, uh, many students-

Unknown Host 37:06 And then there are, uh, tests that the companies give.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 37:08 Test and other things. But, uh, you know, uh, students, that time they are not decided. They register, then after some time they, uh, they say, "No." What are the other options? So first option is, are they around the f- 55, 60% of the students, um, uh, 55, 50%, maximum 50% of the students, 40 to 50% of the students are only preferring jobs.

Unknown Host 37:35 Yeah, so about half want jobs, and-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 37:37 40%, less than half. This has been decreasing. That's the number of people today aspiring to go for a job is now ra- ranging between 40 to 50.

Unknown Host 37:46 Yeah, and, and just to point out here, the jobs at campus are very good.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 37:50 No-

Unknown Host 37:50 They're all excellent jobs.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 37:51 So we have this median salary of some 16, 17 lakes.

Unknown Host 37:54 It's over 20 now.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 37:55 Now 20. Somewhere around that. Okay. Uh, it doesn't matter, yeah, because they are very la- very interesting jobs, but they are not pay masters. You also get it, right? They're very good jobs. Some of the very big companies who come here, core technology companies, they give a very interesting job, but they are not pay masters. They give you 15 lake, but... See, at an engage, 15 lakes is enough for you. [laughs] See, your job must be interesting, and that's what I tell the kids, "Pay package is not important at this age. You should learn more."

Unknown Host 38:27 Professor, we'll come back to pay later.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 38:29 So I'm, I'm just finishing the study. So when we talk, let's talk about career pathway. Yeah, jobs are there, but then there is a significant amount of people who want to go for entrepreneurship, and that is increasing. Then there's a significant set of people who want to go for higher studies. Then significant set of people want to take certain competitive examination, like UPSC. So I had people who are graduating in convocation 2026, how many people are interested to come for civil service? We just have interaction with the civil servants, some successful civil servants. A call was made, 400 people turned up.

Unknown Host 39:06 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 39:06 400. I'll be graduating around, uh, yeah, around, uh, you know, uh-

Unknown Host 39:11 12 on the, under lab.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 39:12 Under, under lab, and the remaining same, same, some-

Unknown Host 39:14 Maybe around 2,000. Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 39:15 2,000. I have 400, already 20%-

Unknown Host 39:18 Mm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 39:18 ... are showing interest in civil services, and they will, probably they, they want to take an easy job, but not a tough job, but then, which will give them a lot more time to prepare for civil services.

Unknown Host 39:28 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 39:28 So that's also something. And then, of course, there are some students, they say, "I want time to decide. Let me take a small break. I've been slogging for so many years."

Unknown Host 39:36 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 39:36 "I want a little recess and then go." Okay, so these are some of the very interesting... But one thing I would like to also say here, before I wind up here, all students who have got above eight CGPA, they should come to class and study well. Keep in after, you can't get that job, okay? Are all well-placed, their careers have been, okay. So this is, this is the current scenario. There have been a lot of news items saying that, you know, uh, placement is declining, employment is declining. At least from an IIT Madras perspective-

Unknown Host 40:06 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 40:06 ... I don't see any, anything changing or anything, and people are good, as good as, as they were, and we are where we are, so.

Unknown Host 40:14 On that, I have a comment that I, an institution like IIT Madras thinks in decades and centuries, right?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 40:20 Mm.

Unknown Host 40:20 So this recession is a mere blip. Maybe a little bit will change here and there, but it'll, it, it's not something that affects the norm-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 40:28 Still, I don't think there is a recession in the sense that today I'm not able to get a good system administrator for my lab.

Unknown Host 40:35 Yeah, understood. [laughs]

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 40:36 You got my point, right? So people have to slog, understand the subject. They have to be quite thorough with the subject. Thoroughness is something the student must aspire rather than a pay package. That's why... And career pathways is not just jobs. There are multiple pathways.

Unknown Host 40:53 Jobs, entrepreneurship, higher studies, and competitive exams-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 40:56 Correct

Unknown Host 40:56 ... like UPSC, UPSC, uh, CAT, uh, GRE.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 40:59 UPSC, CAT, GATE, anything.

Unknown Host 41:01 Yeah. A lot of them also stay on to do master's here-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 41:05 Yeah

Unknown Host 41:05 ... if their field of interest is very interesting.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 41:07 Uh, so we don't fix the master- see, we don't want... See, I am quite against asking a kid in 10th standard, 11th standard, saying, "We want to take science or commerce."

Unknown Host 41:17 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 41:17 Either they understood their interest.

Unknown Host 41:18 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 41:19 Unfortunately, we have to give us, and then, uh, the, uh, the, uh, on that day, one single examination, I, we give some karma degree, right? I don't know whether you like the degree you get, but maybe.

Unknown Host 41:29 Professor, let's, let's deep dive onto that. Uh, you were the JEE chairman for a while-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 41:32 Yes

Unknown Host 41:32 ... and you were involved in JEE counseling for students for a long time. So I want to ask you one most obvious question: [chuckles] Why is JEE so difficult?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 41:40 See, JEE, see, today there is a difference between IIT education and the education outside. Let me tell you the difference. You would have entered probably here.

Unknown Host 41:49 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 41:49 See, there are questions asked which test the conceptual understanding. There are questions asked that use the concepts that you have understood.

Unknown Host 42:02 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 42:03 Right? I'm asking you about the concept. I'm asking you to use the concept and answer a question. There's a big difference. There's, you know, given and there to difference-

Unknown Host 42:13 Mm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 42:14 ... in that. Okay, you got my point? IIT education is of the second nature. We make them use the concept, and that concept need not necessarily be from this subject. It can be from some four, five other subjects that you have studied. That is why we have this core-...

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 42:30 engineering coming out in the, the core subjects being aligned in some fashion. Because when I teach, say, computer architecture organization, I can't say, "First year, come and listen." I want them to take foundation of computer science, right? They have to understand some amount of Boolean algebra. They have to understand some amount of reasoning. They should understand some amount of programming. All, all these courses, four courses, will help them clear this particular thing, and that's a very tight connection. And the way we question, the way- type of questions that we put, may, is certainly a second or third higher order thinking skill.

Unknown Host 43:03 Mm-hmm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 43:03 Otherwise, you won't, don't get the great jobs, right? I- we cannot dilute the standard, uh, so that, you know ... Otherwise, you can't claim that we have great jobs, we have great scientists. Where, where does this greatness come? Because of this very hard training, right? So there's no substitute for hard training. There's no substitute for the hard work that you need to put for four years to, to, to, to become a great engineer.

Unknown Host 43:28 Right.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 43:29 And whether you can withstand that type of a education is what JEE Advanced teaches you. What's the difference between JEE Advanced and other examination? If you have a question in trigonometry, many of the examination, including school, it will be question in trigonometry, but here it uses trigonometry plus calculus, plus vector algebra.

Unknown Host 43:50 Understood.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 43:50 Right? And how quickly and the ... And how quickly you are able to relate multiple concepts to solve a single problem.

Unknown Host 43:57 Understood.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 43:57 It's what-

Unknown Host 43:58 So there's some, some element of conceptual understanding across few ideas?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 44:02 Across the ideas within your plus two syllabus.

Unknown Host 44:04 Within your plus two syllabus. There's also, you're hinting that it also pushes you to be rigorous, which is anyway a requirement.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 44:10 Pushes you to be rigorous, pushes you to be more creative, pushes you to use whatever you know to that context. That's very important.

Unknown Host 44:18 Understood.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 44:18 See, what is engineering today, I want to general ... See, I want to even make this small, uh, with artificial plant, right?

Unknown Host 44:24 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 44:25 Oh, that's a chemical, that's a 3D printing. You need to have this beautiful elegance. That's some aesthetic.

Unknown Host 44:30 Yeah, there's some assembly.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 44:32 Where the six disciplines of engineering would have been involved, including architecture, the aesthetics, basically make this small cup which has these plants. It's beautiful, actually, I think so. So this is what? Something which, uh-

Unknown Host 44:44 Understood. Professor, just, just to complete this a little bit, who sets the paper?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 44:50 IIT profs.

Unknown Host 44:51 IIT professors. So every year, I think it's a different IIT, right?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 44:54 IIT organizing, but, uh, all ... We have great people, [chuckles] that's it.

Unknown Host 44:59 [chuckles] Okay. Professor, on this topic, because the JEE exam finally ends up with a rank, right? So I want to ask you, because you have spoken about it earlier, there's a strange kind of duality. We want students to get the best rank. At the same time, we tell them, "If you don't get the best rank, there's already a lot of flexibility. You can figure it out. You can sort of take electives," and so on. So it's like a duality, right?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 45:22 Right. See-

Unknown Host 45:24 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 45:24 ... the two things are there. See, you know, uh, there is a little amount of luck-

Unknown Host 45:33 Mm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 45:33 ... that also clears your marks, right? If you look at the toppers, of course, that is very clear. It's, it's a bell curve, right? Examination is a bell curve, and we select the right part of the tail. Correct?

Unknown Host 45:49 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 45:50 And that's how it can be, because if we have 1.5 million students who is aspiring for 17,000, 20,000, probably 25,000 seats over the next four years-

Unknown Host 45:59 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 45:59 ... but that hundred will come from us. Uh, you know, uh, given another 6,000 extra students in some of the third generation IITs, right? So, so, so we'll get some 25. 1.5 million to 25,000 reduction has to come through this bell curve, and you need

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 46:14 a fairly, uh, legally sustainable, uh, tenable stuff, right? So there is one, two. Now, when we look at this bell curve, uh, on the tail of the tail, it's a quite dispersion, like 356 is the first mark, then 350 is second mark. But when you come a little bit on this tail, on the, on the left-hand side of this tail-

Unknown Host 46:37 Mm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 46:37 ... you see that one or two marks or three marks actually changes the rank quite significantly.

Unknown Host 46:41 Correct, yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 46:42 So that's, that's an element of luck, right? But then, what we are telling the kids is, every department that they join, I said this vaccine fact, right? It's not a joke, right? So theological scientists is, are the reason why you and me are talking third mask today.

Unknown Host 47:00 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 47:00 Of course, I would have been dead if we don't have the vaccine.

Unknown Host 47:02 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 47:03 Vaccine, whatever, it has controlled, uh, you know, that brought the country into some running mode back, right? So every discipline that we are looking there will certainly have very good course.

Unknown Host 47:15 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 47:15 It's not going to be some ... Like, there is no bad mother.

Unknown Host 47:19 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 47:20 There's no bad course. Every course has its own distinct, uh, you know, contribution to the society, distinct contribution technologically-

Unknown Host 47:28 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 47:29 ... and distinct position in the world, right, from the global scenario. So, so what we are saying is, write the exam, put your best, depending upon the rank and depending upon the interest you take, okay? There is a lot of computer science students come and say, "Why I took this course? I should have taken engineering physics." And I have n stories I could tell about that. So the parents must ensure that the kid actually joins the course that they like.

Unknown Host 47:57 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 47:58 They don't want computer science, I d- I don't want coding, but then, "Oh, you got all India rank one. You go and join computer science." Uh, that's not the thing.

Unknown Host 48:07 Yeah, I mean, some students are ... You know, it's funny when I think about it. If you think of the top hundred ranks, they have anything they want to do, right? They can take anything. Uh, like a herd, if they choose the same thing, it feels like, why do you have so much freedom? If you have so much freedom, do what you want, right?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 48:25 Mm.

Unknown Host 48:25 I can do anything, so I should be able to do anything, but-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 48:27 Somewhere, the ... At the, that's what I'm saying. At the end of plus two, they are guided by a lot of people. They cannot-... and they say, "Oh, hey, if you take, uh, uh, this particular computer science, your future is ensured." Others, we don't know. So they, they don't talk ill about other things, but they say, "This is a very sure path. You can go up and you can make a lot of money." So somewhere, that notion of security-

Unknown Host 48:57 Mm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 48:58 ... overshadows the notion of interest.

Unknown Host 49:01 So you're saying that many of them are just taking safe bets?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:04 Playing safe.

Unknown Host 49:05 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:06 But I say that, you know, let's say today, today India's maritime economy is so big.

Unknown Host 49:12 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:12 Civil aviation is growing big.

Unknown Host 49:15 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:15 We- infrastructure is going great.

Unknown Host 49:18 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:18 Advanced manufacturing is happening.

Unknown Host 49:20 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:20 And none of this has great relevance in computer science and, you know, and the core subject is not-

Unknown Host 49:26 In fact, I want, I want to point out that the, the- again, we are sitting in the week of the Aether IPO, and those two alumnus who founded that, they are, uh, engineering-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:34 Design

Unknown Host 49:35 ... Engineering design students, right?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:36 Because they're all engineering design is a butterful course.

Unknown Host 49:39 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:39 This is the medical second, uh, science and engineering equivalent-

Unknown Host 49:44 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:44 ... exploratory course of our first decade of the new century-

Unknown Host 49:48 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:48 ... engineering.

Unknown Host 49:49 And the minute Sensex hits that well, they will be richer than all the computer science [chuckles] -

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:53 Yes

Unknown Host 49:53 ... students in their degree. [chuckles]

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 49:55 Yes.

Unknown Host 49:55 Yeah. It is amazing. Um, thank you so much. Uh, I want to just dive in a little mo- bit more. Uh, suppose you were to advise the parent of a rank 50 student, rank 500 student-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 50:06 One to two-

Unknown Host 50:07 And a rank 5,000 students.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 50:09 These days, this counseling has become online.

Unknown Host 50:11 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 50:12 But those days it was personal counseling. So we have, we have a hall like this in ISR, right? If you'd have this counseling, where, uh, you know, we put a bench like this, uh, I'll be sitting ... the counselor will be sitting here, and people can come and talk. So I had a, uh, I had a kid. I had two elderly people, parents, mother and father coming, saying, "You said 50 lac, right?" This guy has got some 200 rank. It doesn't matter big, right?

Unknown Host 50:38 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 50:38 50 to 100 rank, uh, will he get computer science? First, they came. I said, "Where is the..." I'm, I'm to counsel the kid first, right? So I said, "Where is the bhaiyya? Boy." Boy was standing there, half an acre away. I said, "Call the boy." So that boy came. He stood next to me, near me, and stood there. I asked him, I caught his-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 51:00 put my hand on his shoulders. You know, clearly made him feel a bit comfortable. He was a bit tense. And I said, "You got excellent ranks, man. What do you want to do?" He wanted to do engineering physics. We introduced engineering physics at those days. It was just one or two year. So he started saying, "Each-"

Unknown Host 51:18 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 51:19 Mother from computer science choose. [laughing] And they build this computer science choice. Okay, now, the story starts here. After this, uh, parents left, this guy, he said, "Oh, I want to go to washroom or something," and he took some permission, and he again came here. "Sir, sir, can you change it to engineering physics?"

Unknown Host 51:38 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 51:39 I said, "It- you are still minor. You are 17. If I change it to engineering physics without the consent of your parent, I will lose my job, and, uh-

Unknown Host 51:48 Mm

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 51:48 ... you will also be into problem. So join whatever course you want. But why you want to do engineering?" "Sir, I went all the way to Canada, Olympiad, of this thing, everything. So I don't know why I wrote this JEE so well, I got this rank, and surely get into this computer science stuff I don't want." [chuckles] "Okay, but don't worry. By your rank, you'll certainly get into IIT Madras electrical engineering. Now, you be here, okay? And you learn some physics course only first year. At the end of first year, you become 18, you become major, okay? Then you can make your choice. You'd ask for a branch change- [chuckles] ... we'll give you the branch change, and you can go off to engineering physics."

Unknown Host 52:26 Nice.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 52:26 What I'm saying is, parents must sit and talk. Just not talk to all the neighbors, all, all the people who play there, and then keep talking to them advice, advice, advice, right? Parents just should talk to the kid. Ask them, "Arey, what is your interest?" Right? And, uh, based on that, I think they should make. Otherwise, if they don't like the course and they come here, they are also away from home for the first time in life, stress starts to build, right? This is something which I make in this podcast, tell parent to please call your kid, ask the kid what he or she wants to do. That's very, very important.

Unknown Host 53:05 Yeah. Yeah. You earlier spoke-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:08 Your mother or father ask you?

Unknown Host 53:10 Um, yeah. My... I, I got mechanical- I, I took mechanical at IIT Madras. Uh, I think it was-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:16 By choice or by rank?

Unknown Host 53:17 By ch- by choice. I would have got computer science maybe in Guwahati. At that time, computer science in Guwahati was new, so I could have got that. I think my parents were asking me to take that. My mother is a computer scientist.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:28 Okay.

Unknown Host 53:29 I was sure I want to do mechanical. [chuckles]

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:31 Yeah.

Unknown Host 53:31 So... [chuckles]

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:32 Good. One exam.

Unknown Host 53:34 Uh, but, but-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:34 Thank you, mother. [chuckles]

Unknown Host 53:35 [chuckles] But we did meet students in the podcast who have taken computer science and then done something else.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:41 Yes.

Unknown Host 53:41 Um, the co-founder of Swiggy is an alumnus of ours, computer science student.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:45 Yes.

Unknown Host 53:45 Um, obviously, he went by a management route, now is the co-founder there. Uh, we also met, uh, Shriram, who, uh, was helpful in setting up the Happiness course.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 53:53 Yes.

Unknown Host 53:54 He was also a computer science student, rank 51. He's a coach now. I guess they fan out. Um, just before we move away from JEE, I want to also ask you, the competitive nature of this exam, uh, sort of pushes everyone into one mindset. And when I look back at the curriculum that is there in 11th and 12th, some really beautiful topics, right? There's trigonometry, rotational dynamics, um, there's, um, nuclear energy. First time you read E equal to MC square and all that. Do you see a future where it's possible that students in 11th and 12th will actually enjoy that syllabus?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 54:32 Yeah, yeah. So the point is, that's what I, I again say, if you for- if you get a great score in JEE rank, uh, you can certainly become a-... you can join IIT Madras, it's a great course. But if you fail in JEE, there's also a chance that you become a director. [laughing] He, uh, repeatedly said, "The JEE is one means of success. It's not the only means."

Unknown Host 54:56 Mm-hmm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 54:58 One among the multiple means of support. Wherever you go study very, right? And you'll, you'll come up in life. And, uh, you know, you can't shy away from competition. You work hard, you put your best. When it comes, it comes. It doesn't come, okay. There are so many things in life. JEE alone is not the end game for everyone. Of course, it gives you some... It's again, like Diwali crackers. You know, the moment you burst over, next Diwali again, you have to start, right? So the

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 55:26 moment you are announced, rank comes, not necessary that the topper here gets a topper in PGM, right?

Unknown Host 55:31 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 55:31 Very rarely we see that-

Unknown Host 55:33 Yeah

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 55:33 ... uh, topper, uh, of a particular topper, JEE topper, who joins a particular institute, the top ranker.

Unknown Host 55:39 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 55:39 JEE is not the topper finally ours. So, so things are changing. Things are... So, my again, request is children might have this, but they want to join, et cetera. Parents should not fuel it more, blow it more. Got it?

Unknown Host 55:58 Nice.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 55:58 So, so they should say, okay, they should... Whatever I'm saying now is what I'm expecting from the parents. Are they work hard? Whatever you want, I'll give you. Just not keep seeing WhatsApp, IPL, at least case.

Unknown Host 56:09 Mm-hmm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 56:10 Enjoy. But from sixth standard, should not say cricket. You can't go there. If vitamin D was nil in some of the candidates. Nil!

Unknown Host 56:17 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 56:17 Then will be some 30 or what, something like that. Nil, 10, 10, you know, so somebody said vi- vitamin D is low, you become, uh, you know, you get become stressed. So when we had, uh, we had certain events-

Unknown Host 56:31 Are you saying that students who have come into IIT-

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 56:33 Uh, very less than. Some, some students we profiled as a random thing. The... They've not seen sun. I should say, this is called grass, this is called green.

Unknown Host 56:41 [laughing]

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 56:41 That's why we started the sto- sports excellence.

Unknown Host 56:43 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 56:44 Clearly telling the parents that, "Hey, if you play well, also you can get it by IIT Madras in a plum course accordingly."

Unknown Host 56:49 Yeah. Professor, let's shift tracks a bit. Uh, I, uh, as a director, I want to ask you. Of course, we are talking about students working hard and getting a rank. Uh, IIT has also worked very hard and got the NIRF Rank 1 for many years in a row. Uh, what gives, Professor? How come we end up consistently being on top?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 57:06 We are aligning ourselves with the national priorities.

Unknown Host 57:09 Okay.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 57:10 That's very, very important. And, um, we are constituted, we are working as a very cohesive unit, like between the faculty, staff. To have... See, any, any place, they'll have some difference of opinions and other things will be there. But what we do is, any such thing, we try to resolve it at the earliest and finally come to some consensus, and everybody agrees to that consensus and put their full heart in it. And that is a semblance of a great institution, and I'm very blessed that what has given me this opportunity to lead this institution for this talk, right? So, so that is something excellent about IIT Madras. Uh, yesterday we had the, you know, the Ambedkar Jayanti. We had a meeting

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 58:00 there, and I get an opportunity to meet the faculty staff together. One of the things that have come up as, as a director, I never... Very rarely, I get into a mode where I am resolving issues, right? The next rank after the director, people who report to the director, the registrar, the deans, the HODs, at that level itself, multiple things get sorted.

Unknown Host 58:27 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 58:27 So the director is actually given some peace of mind to basically think about large vision, like all your sports excellence admission, your fine arts admission. So many things we have now brought in.

Unknown Host 58:38 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 58:38 All the new changes. The director needs a free mind to look at these things.

Unknown Host 58:42 Right.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 58:43 Right? So to, to basically conceive of, put things in place, et cetera. And that is, that-

Unknown Host 58:49 So you say there's a lot of cohesion, there's a lot of collaboration.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 58:52 Cohesion is the most important thing for us to maintain some certain pace. So, so this is, this is number two. Number three is we had a strategic plan, and very interestingly, we did not make some other person write our strategic plan. The strategic plan was actually done by our own, uh, you know, young faculty. Young faculty in the sense, we take faculty in the age group of 40 to 60 to write the strategic plan.

Unknown Host 59:19 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 59:19 Preferably less than or equal to 45, so that when the plan gets implemented, they have another 20 years for implementing it, and they own the plan.

Unknown Host 59:26 Yeah.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 59:26 It's my plan, man. It's my plan. That's, that's the ownership is what we give them. And the strategic plan, once accepted, it was presented and presumed, the board has accept- as, uh, you know, accepted it, and it was released by the Honorable Minister, Dermot Collangi, when he was here at the campus. Uh, and it is two years since we released the strategic plan, and we have been adhering to the plan.

Unknown Host 59:48 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 59:49 So there is a focus. So what we are doing to do, like the National Education Policy, there's one policy, which... What is the NE, NEP gave us? Because it gave us something that we can focus on, gave us something that we can align to. So that is also something which we are seeing as a reason for us to be humble.

Unknown Host 1:00:07 Nice. Uh, Professor, I have just two questions left. Uh, so one, uh, you spoke about the NIRF rankings, and, uh, we are also improving in the QS rankings, the international rankings. Uh, is that something that IIT is really look forward to? Is it aligned to something we can do?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:00:21 Yeah, yeah. So QS ranking, actually, uh, what was very impressive was the sustainability thing. Actually, lot of insights we got into that sustainability. The first year, we did not even submit the data correctly. There was some understanding, what we understood about sustainability and what QS was looking was very difficult, and we were rated some 640 in the world. We said, "Hey, come on, we are doing so much [chuckles] .

Unknown Host 1:00:43 We are in a forest.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:00:44 Yes, forest, so we are doing that.... last time we fished it up, and it was whooping. We came from six forty to some three hundred thousand. In one year instead, we jumped three hundred, right? Because we, then we understood what all we are doing in the core sustainability, and we started projecting it proper. I think, um, but then we learned a lot of things from the sustainability ranking and QS, so I'm very-

Unknown Host 1:01:05 Understood.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:01:06 The whole school of sustainability came up then, right? Uh, um, School of Sustainability was there

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:01:12 in our agenda, but QS ranking parameters thought that where we can concentrate and fine-tune it, and that gave us some more shape. So we are also looking at this IRN, this is International Research Network, where we have some mobility and other things. That is also something where we need to improve. And of course, research is a consistent work, right? So we are, with the IOE grant, we have set up some fifteen centers of excellence. We have also got some very, very good equipments. We have installed these equipments now. And yesterday, uh, uh, we opened up five labs yesterday. Uh, Dr. Shivakumar, uh, NRF chief, he came here yesterday. We opened up five different facilities, just state-of-the-art facilities. Already, HOD Chemistry said that there are no papers. In the last one month, they have some journal papers that they have never done in their life.

Unknown Host 1:01:59 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:02:00 So that's how we are improving the research. So International Research Network, our citation improvement, and also the sustainability, are three areas where we have to keep working, right? Working, working, working. So there's nothing like we have to move so fast to... for the, for the parameters to look at, we are at least standing, right, and I'm doing, right? So that's very important. But then comes the fourth, which is perception, for which I don't have a big answer. Whatever possible podcast, this thing, we are now talking about perception. We are sending the top fifty schools, we have at least forty-seven of them, we have our alumnus as a faculty, the top fifty schools. So we are trying to improve our perception. But, you know, it depends upon how the world-

Unknown Host 1:02:42 It also takes time.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:02:43 May take time, but that's out of syllabus for me. I don't know what to do.

Unknown Host 1:02:46 [chuckles]

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:02:47 I, I'm... Whatever I can, I am doing, making myself more available, explaining what is IIT Madras. Hopefully, our perception improves. That forty-five marks of QS is out of syllabus for me.

Unknown Host 1:02:57 Oh.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:02:57 The remaining fifty-five, these three are the parameters that-

Unknown Host 1:03:00 Forty-five marks is perception?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:03:02 Perception.

Unknown Host 1:03:02 My God. Professor, last question. I want to come back to philosophy. I have always been fascinated that the logo of IIT Madras has the word Siddhir Bhavati Karmaja. Uh, and of course, everybody on campus knows it. It's a big part of our lives, right? Uh, what does it mean to you, and how should students and alumni carry it forward in our lives?

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:03:22 Taittiriya Upanishad, there is this statement, Swadhyaya Pravachana Abhyam Npramati Tat Kwia. Essentially means, you should never be unmindful of your obligation to learn and to teach, right? And, uh, and once you do that, Siddhir Bhavati Karmaja. The Karmaja there, what is your karma here? Learn and teach. Then you get all your satisfaction. This is how I relate. These two statements are the guiding factors. Last one, as a teacher, which I'm also insisting now when I recruit new teachers, after, uh, see, uh, as a director, right, some of the very pleasant tasks that you do is that you recruit people who are going to run your institute for next thirty, forty years. That's a big satisfaction. So we've recruited more than hundred and sixty faculty in the last three years, right? Um,

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:04:15 what comes there is, you know, there is one Prashnottaram of Adi Shankaracharya, which says... They ask Adi Shankaracharya, "Who is a teacher?" The response is, "Adhikata tattvaha shishya hitaya vidyataha sarve." What it means is, the person should be completely knowledgeable of what he or she, she is expected to teach or do research. Should be a- adhikata tattvaha mean completely should be knowledgeable, and always think about students, welfare of students. So I insist... Of course, during the interview, we see whether they have the fundamental knowledge, but then we want to tell them at least that student first.

Unknown Host 1:04:56 Mm.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:04:57 These three guiding principles will take the institute to new heights, and I believe that all our faculty have been doing it. Ask me why NIRF point one one nine. This is mostly it.

Unknown Host 1:05:11 Right. On that note, thank you very much for being with us. Professor, so grateful that you gave us the time.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:05:18 I really hope you enjoyed. I enjoyed all the questions. [chuckles]

Unknown Host 1:05:21 And we'll see you during Ask IITM.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:05:23 Yeah.

Unknown Host 1:05:23 Hopefully, we'll get to meet the students again.

Veezhinathan Kamakoti 1:05:24 Sure, sure. Thank you. [outro jingle]