Prof. Raghunathan, Dean, Global Engagement | “Everyone successful wears multiple hats”| Ep. 11

Speaker 0:00 so that's a big pressure, actually. People might not realize, because we don't want to be saying wrong things, uh-

Unknown Host 0:06 So Professor Anand was like the forcing function?

Speaker 0:08 He was like the catalyst.

Unknown Host 0:09 Catalyst. Oh, I missed that. Yeah, the catalyst. Uh-

Speaker 0:14 You're a mechanical engineer, right?

Unknown Host 0:15 Yes, yes. Yeah, uh, that. [upbeat music]

Speaker 0:27 Hi, my name is Amrit. We've heard that IIT Madras is the best place to build. [upbeat music] So we've come down to the Sudha and Shankar Innovation Hub. We want to meet some people. These are builders. We want to talk to them about their work, and also ask them, what makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music]

Unknown Host 0:55 Hello, and welcome to the Best Place to Build podcast. Today, we are sitting with Professor Raghu. He's a professor at IIT Madras in the Department of Chemical Engineering and the Department of Data Science and AI, so that's two departments. And, uh, he's also a well-published researcher. He's written two books. Uh, we'll explore that. He's also the Dean for Global Engagement, and we'll explore what that means. In addition, one final piece of introduction, he's also an alumnus of IIT Madras from, I think, the batch of 1990. Is that correct, Professor? Welcome to the podcast.

Speaker 1:26 Thank you, Amrit.

Unknown Host 1:27 Uh, Professor, let's start with your student days. So you were a profe- you were a student here from '80, '85 to 1990?

Speaker 1:34 '86 to '90.

Unknown Host 1:35 Okay. Can you tell us about how your days were at IIT Madras? And also, since you're now a professor, how has times changed?

Speaker 1:42 Uh, so I don't go to hostels much now, so I don't know what's the scene in the hostel. But, uh, our days, it was, uh, a lot of fun. I still remember my four years as the best times of my life here at IIT Madras. Um, we used to study, uh, we used to do well in academics, but at the same time, there was really not much pressure, uh, compared to now. I think that's something that has changed. We were very secure about what we'll get after finishing. There were never any doubts about, uh, what life holds for us. Uh, the brash, young, uh, IITian those days. We used to have fantastic times. We used to play TT till, uh, 2:30 AM, 3:00 in the night in the common room. We used to have these cricket competitions in the quadrangle, and so on. I, I simply remember those days as about some of the best times of my life.

Unknown Host 2:35 Uh, I have to ask you, which hostel were you in?

Speaker 2:38 Narmada.

Unknown Host 2:38 Narmada, okay.

Speaker 2:39 The best hostel. [laughs]

Unknown Host 2:40 Oh, okay. [laughs]

Speaker 2:42 Uh, [chuckles] we had several, uh, six-a-side competitions that we won, I think nine or something.

Unknown Host 2:48 Was it, was it called Schroeder back then?

Speaker 2:50 Schroeder was the overall cup, but, uh, the competition that was very popular was six-a-side.

Unknown Host 2:56 Okay.

Speaker 2:56 It's not there anymore, I think. Uh, it used to be played opposite Quark, uh, and, uh, Narmada was the best. In fact, we had such a strong set of players, we had Narmada A and B.

Unknown Host 3:10 I don't know who's watching from Narmada, [chuckles] but, uh, uh, I want to ask you, uh, were you... Uh, was Saarang a thing?

Speaker 3:19 No, it was called Mardi Gras back in those days, and, uh, I've been involved with this peripherally. I, I was not very involved, uh, in the main, uh, organization of the event. But we did have someone who was, uh, very involved, and we used to help out. So I still remember, uh, I used to have a two-wheeler, so I still remember going to Alsa Mall. I don't know whether it exists in Chennai.

Unknown Host 3:42 Alsa Mall in Chepauk.

Speaker 3:43 Chepauk. And sticking posters about Mardi Gras and so on, so those were, were really good times. And of course, these competitions, and the mind benders, and so on-

Unknown Host 3:52 Right

Speaker 3:53 ... were really fun. And, uh, was it called Just a Minute?

Unknown Host 3:57 Yeah.

Speaker 3:57 That, um, was, uh, really fun, and I used to really enjoy, uh, the music competitions, the, uh, the, um, Tamil songs and the Hindi songs, and so on, the more popular music competition from college kids and so on. So it was really fun in those days.

Unknown Host 4:15 Nice. So, uh, Professor, you were a student of chemical engineering,

Unknown Host 4:18 and then I think the norm back then was that after you finish IIT, you typically go abroad to study further. So a- a- as I understand, you went to Purdue. Could you tell us a little bit about your student life in US, and how it was, like, how it was different?

Speaker 4:35 So again, I think, uh, uh, so in our class, I think if I remember right, there were about 31 students. Uh, and, uh, again, if memory serves right, 26 to 28 of us went abroad, uh, all of us to the US. And I think a large number of them finished PhD. So that used to be the kind of, uh, trend back then. And, uh, grad student life, uh, was again, a lot of fun because you get to explore the creative side of, uh, your technical, uh, skills. H- Purdue was a great place because there were lots of Indian students, and IIT Madras, uh, was very popular [chuckles] at Purdue, so-

Unknown Host 5:19 I've noticed a lot of IIT Madras-

Speaker 5:21 Yeah

Unknown Host 5:21 ... especially in chemical engineering students, would go to Purdue.

Speaker 5:24 Not only chemical engineering, in... Y- yes, chemical engineering, but there are lots of IIT Madras seniors-

Unknown Host 5:29 Yeah

Speaker 5:30 ... at Purdue, so the transition was unbelievable. So, uh, I, I don't remember doing much. Uh, a house was, uh, uh, chosen for us. The first month rent was paid. Uh, we got picked up from Indianapolis, and then got our first fantastic meal as a dinner. So i- it was such a smooth transition because of, uh, the strong connect IIT Madras had with Purdue. And at Purdue, life was really good. Again, uh, I was very much into sports, so I used to play, uh, badminton a lot.... three, four hours. Uh, and then, then, uh, once coursework was done, it was just, uh, great fun doing the research, learning things, like, uh, con- contributing and so.

Unknown Host 6:14 Nice.

Unknown Host 6:15 So I, I know that you told me that i- in, with the time that you were a grad student, uh, AI was a thing, and then you-- although your field was chemical engineering, you were u- using AI in chemical engineering. And but before we go there, can you tell me a little bit about... You know, when, when we talk to outsiders, because I'm from mechanical engineering, so I understand this somewhat, but when we talk to outsiders, mm, I'm not sure they understand that chemistry and chemical engineering are different. So what does chemical engineering mean to a general public?

Speaker 6:47 Yeah, so there are lots of connections. Uh, I will also tell you why I worked on AI in chemical engineering at Purdue, how it came about. That itself is a very fascinating story. Uh, but, uh, uh, to answer your other question about, um, chemistry and chemical engineering, um, in a very simple term, uh, chemical engineers make things in bulk. So if a chemist finds out a reaction and, uh, shows that something is produced in a lab, uh, then to scale it up so that it's mass-produced is a chemical engineer's job. So you can think of this as a engineering aspect of chemistry. Uh, and again, now things are very, getting very blurred, right? So, uh, you know, uh, both chemistry folks and chemical engineers work on catalysts, and, um, chemistry folks work on data science. In fact, I teach a course called, uh, Chemistry for Data Scientists in, uh, in IIT Madras Zanzibar. And, um, uh, chemical engineering, of course, is in every field, and I'm sure every engineer will say the same thing [chuckles] about their engineering. They'll say, "Mechanical is everywhere. Aerospace is everywhere." Chemical engineering is truly everywhere, right? The shirt you wear, the slippers that we wear. Uh, uh, you know, think of... Look at, look at that, um, uh, advertisement sheet there, that is chemical engineering. Uh, fuel cells, uh, part of it are che- is chemical engineering. And semiconductors, uh, for example, uh, when you make the semiconductors, they have to have very polished surface, something called chemical-mechanical planarization, the CMP. Lot of chemical engineers work on that. So, um, m- much like many other fields, I think, uh, chemical engineering is there in almost every, uh, you know, engineering material that we use.

Unknown Host 8:55 So if anything is being manufactured at a large scale-

Speaker 8:57 Yeah

Unknown Host 8:58 ... and it involves any kind of chemical, which is basically everything.

Speaker 9:00 Everything.

Unknown Host 9:01 So that-

Speaker 9:02 That's broadly chemical engineering.

Unknown Host 9:03 Yeah.

Speaker 9:04 Of course, the technicalities are there. What do we study? We study how mass is conserved. We study how energy is conserved. We study how, uh, momentum is conserved, which mechanical engineers also do. But when chemical reactions are there in the systems, how do these affect these things, and so on. So that's the way... Uh, that's a unique aspect of chemical engineering, that you have reactions that occur, and what our mechanical engineers might study as, uh, energy balance, we chemical engineers also study as energy balance, but when chemical reactions are going out.

Unknown Host 9:38 Right.

Speaker 9:39 And as a very layman, uh, explanation.

Unknown Host 9:41 100%, and, and, uh, the core idea here is that when you're doing it with test tubes, it, it behaves in a certain way, but when you're doing it in a, in a large, uh, cauldron, uh, there's a lot more that you need.

Speaker 9:53 Yeah, just to take a very, very simple example, if I gave you a very little amount of this coffee and say, "Mix it well," it's very simple. If you pour the same coffee in this cup, say, "Mix it really well, harder," think of a reactor this room in size, and say, "Mix it well,"-

Unknown Host 10:09 Yeah

Speaker 10:09 ... it's different, right? So that's called the effect of scaling, uh-

Unknown Host 10:13 Yeah

Speaker 10:13 ... things up, and, and we study how, uh, things ha- um, uh, you know, behave in larger systems, so on. And of course, uh, you know, in a test tube, even though i- that is also dangerous, but if there is an explosion, the effect is minimal.

Unknown Host 10:29 Yeah.

Speaker 10:29 But imagine, uh, uh, safety considerations when you have larger systems. So those are all-

Unknown Host 10:34 In fact, as you are saying it, I have this me- I have this image of, uh, batter, idli batter-

Speaker 10:39 Yeah

Unknown Host 10:39 ... which we make at homes, but now we have these companies which are making them in tons and tons and then transporting it, and that's a fermentation process.

Speaker 10:45 Absolutely.

Unknown Host 10:46 And that expands, and that spoils. So, uh, it's clearly a-

Speaker 10:50 Yeah

Unknown Host 10:50 ... lot of engineering involved.

Speaker 10:51 And the batter, when it comes to your dosa pan, uh, whether you can take a dosa that comes out beautifully or not... Of course, now they have materials which are non-stick, so it's easier. But in olden days, when you didn't have non-stick and so on, it's actually a very interesting heat exchange problem, where correct heat you should have, so that the dosa, dosa comes out without getting broken on the plate, and so on. So, you know, uh, there are lots of interesting aspects of, uh, engineering in general and, of course, chemical engineering, in everything that we do.

Unknown Host 11:22 I- in your PhD, uh, you moved from, uh, whatever we are talking about, towards data science. So how was that journey like, and what is, what does it mean?

Speaker 11:30 So, uh, interestingly, I told you, uh, so I was, uh, uh, doing my, uh, last year of, uh, uh, bachelor's here, and Professor Ananth, who was my project guide, uh, w- wanted, uh, some students to do a project, where the project was actually building an expert system, uh, for identifying what vapor-liquid equilibrium equation you should use for a given a particular system. So he wanted, uh, the student to build a system where you go through series of questions, and then there is a knowledge base, and based on-... the answers to the questions, the knowledge base will pick a particular, uh, equation that should be used. So this was maybe, if I remember right-

Unknown Host 12:19 Like a decision-making?

Speaker 12:20 This is-- it's called knowledge-based systems or expert systems. Those were old AI terms. And if I remember right, maybe a hundred and fifty, two hundred, uh, rules. And then, you know, you answer questions, and then if, uh, there are conflicts with your answers, conflict resolution, and so on. So interestingly, there was an expert system shell where you program these rules. There was a floppy disk of that.

Unknown Host 12:46 Yeah.

Speaker 12:46 And, uh, unlike these days, the floppy disk didn't come with any instructions, no user manual, nothing. So we, uh, uh, myself and another, uh, friend of mine did this project. We got this floppy disk, and here is a problem, uh: go and build this system. Uh, so any long story short, we built this, uh... But I got very fascinated by this expert system, AI, and so on, um, at that time, during my bachelor's project. So my bachelor's project title is An Expert System for Really a Case Selection. Then I looked at, uh, universities where, uh, people were doing AI in chemical engineering, and there are very few, and Purdue was, uh, one place, uh, that, uh, there were faculty doing this. And Professor Venkat, who was my PhD, uh, advisor, was at Purdue at that time. So, uh, uh, that was one of the reasons that I was, uh, excited by Purdue. But more importantly, Purdue was also a really, really good school, and, and in, in fact, in the top of my list, uh, of schools that I wanted to go to. And Professor Ananth had a wonderful connection with Purdue, so Ananth, uh, recommended me strongly, and I got into Purdue. So that's how I, I got into this field of AI and chemical engineering. But the postscript for that is that, that floppy came from Professor Venkat.

Unknown Host 14:15 Oh.

Speaker 14:15 When the computer science department here had called him to come and give a talk on expert systems, he had come here, and then he had left that floppy, and, uh, that, that completes the circle.

Unknown Host 14:27 Nice. I'm good. I, I want to say that when I was a student here, two thousand and three to 'eight, Professor Ananth was a director, and he was, of course, a fabulous director, so good. Uh, but you knew him as a professor, and you've maybe attended his class. How was he like in class?

Speaker 14:41 Uh, he was inspirational, I should say, because we all looked up to him. Uh, there was one thing which was unbelievable about him was that, um, uh, he never carried notes, and he was teaching, uh, thermodynamics. And thermodynamics is both abstract, and it's also quite mathematical with all of these PDEs and so on. So I still remember he come, the board will be empty. He'll start writing. At the end of the class, the board will be full of equations, and we all used to sit and say, "Wow, how can someone hold all this in their head and, without any missteps, go through this?" So, um, uh, it, it was a very, uh, uh-- it's a fantastic, uh, experience with, uh, Professor Ananth. And he also had other very interesting things. He will mark only negative marks, uh, which is, uh-- he'll only... So l-let's say there's a question for mark, ten marks. He will say, "Minus three," and, uh, then, uh, he will sum up all the negative marks, and then subtract it from the total, and that's your final mark. So that was something [chuckles] which I've never seen with anyone. Of course, BTechs being BTech, there are some students who tried to not answer questions, thinking that he'll miss that question and make it- [chuckles]

Unknown Host 15:57 Not given a negative.

Speaker 15:59 [chuckles] But of course, uh, he was smarter than that, I'm sure.

Unknown Host 16:04 That's pretty cool.

Unknown Host 16:05 Um, Professor, in your career, you have taught-- after your PhD, you taught at IIT Bombay, and then you taught at Purdue, and then in New York, and then, uh, again in the US, and then you came here. So you've taught at, uh, four universities. Uh, it'll be nice for us to understand how your journey through that has been, and, uh, what are the differences between these universities?

Speaker 16:28 So, uh, maybe this is not what you want to hear, but I'll have to because this is an IIT Madras, uh, podcast, and I am representing IITM. But I have to say this, there are no, uh, not much difference between IITs.

Unknown Host 16:43 Sure.

Speaker 16:43 So, uh, I had the loveliest time at, uh, IIT Bombay, and it, it was really fantastic. That was the first job I got, uh, and so I came, and, uh, uh, it, it was such a, uh-- at least the chemical engineering department at that time was such a progressive department. I, I... In fact, at one time, when I was at IIT Bombay, uh, I possibly had the largest number of PhD students, being the youngest in the department. And, and the older pr- professors or the senior professors used to come and support, uh, all the time. We had-- we used to have, uh, Professor Killer was head of the department at that, um, at my time, and he was really, really, really supportive. Then we had professors, uh, Madhavan, uh, Kakkar, uh, Kannan Moudgalya, so a lot of people who helped me. So IIT Bombay was a great, uh, experience. Uh, in a very short five years, I had, uh-

Unknown Host 17:41 This is, this is from '90s, and I-

Speaker 17:42 '96 to 2000, and so I had already graduated a PhD student. Uh, I had, uh, several PhD students, uh, pursuing their degrees with me. But, uh, somehow, uh, y- you know, I don't know whether I'll make the same decision now if I go back in time, but somehow, at that time in 2000, I felt that, uh, uh, still, uh, the, uh... So the AI in chemical engineering, closely tied to what we call a systems engineering in chemical engineering. So in systems engineering, we still do a lot of, uh, theoretical computational work.... in optimization, in, uh, uh, modeling, and so on. And somehow I felt, uh, that the work that I do will have more impact if I were in the US, and that was one of the main reasons that I-

Unknown Host 18:37 Well, of course, India was a very different place-

Speaker 18:39 Place

Unknown Host 18:39 ... at that time.

Speaker 18:40 Yeah, that time. Uh, I could have persevered. Things started changing, uh, you know, seven, eight years later, but, you know, uh, that's a decision I, I made at the time. So I applied to multiple universities, and, uh, Clarkson University in upstate New York called me right as soon as I applied. And then the interview was within two weeks of, uh, that. And then I went there, and I got an offer right away. Uh, and I had many considerations at the time, so I had, uh, four PhD students, and in the US, it's very difficult to get funding for... You know, it takes a while to get funding. So, um, I told the university, "You know, if you fund all of these four students, then I'll come." They said yes to that, and then the students said they won't write GRE. I went to them and said, "You should not make them write GRE." They said yes to that. So Clarkson treated me wonderfully, so I went there.

Unknown Host 19:36 So you were able to move almost with your entire recruit?

Speaker 19:38 Entire, which was unheard of in those days. Uh, so that gave me a really great start to my research career. So I didn't mi- miss a beat when I moved from, uh, IIT Bombay to Clarkson. And at Clarkson, again, I say this, I've said this many times, and though I'm an Indian, I've been in two Indian universities. If you were to ask me what was the most friendliest department that I worked in, it would be Clarkson.

Unknown Host 20:04 Okay.

Speaker 20:04 There were 14 faculty, small chemical engineering department. Uh, a wonderful bunch of people, so I really enjoyed Clarkson. I would never have left Clarkson if not for the cold, real cold, [chuckles] uh, climate-

Unknown Host 20:19 Oh, very cold there.

Speaker 20:21 Upstate New York, yeah, and is, uh, temperatures to minus 20, minus 30, and so on. So moved to Texas Tech-

Unknown Host 20:28 Mm

Speaker 20:28 ... at, uh, Lubbock, and I was there for a very short bit, though, there. I was there two and a half years, uh, but decided to come back to IIT Madras.

Unknown Host 20:38 When you came back, was Professor Ananth the director?

Speaker 20:40 In fact, that's another interesting story in my life. Once you go settle down somewhere, Clarkson, Texas Tech, then, you know, though I had in the back of my mind I should come back, but it was not prominent, so I would have just moved on. Like, because sometimes you don't think about these things very deliberately.

Unknown Host 20:58 Yeah.

Speaker 20:59 Life looks good. Children are there. They're going to school. Nothing seems wrong, so things move on. But, uh, um, there was a conference in Bombay that I got invited to. So I came and, uh, gave a presentation, and incidentally, Professor Ananth was also invited to the same conference. So after my talk, he came and asked me, "Raghu, when are you coming back?" Then I laughed off, and then I said, "Okay, uh, I'll, I'll come back," is what I think I told him. I don't exactly remember. Then I went back, and my wife and I, we were walking around a lake that used to be near our house, and then, uh, then I said, uh, "You know, Professor Ananth asked me this." Then she said, "Yes, we should go back," and she was so passionate about that. I said, "You were so passionate about this. Why didn't you tell me before?" So she told me, "Look, your career was, was going really well, and I didn't know whether you wanted to yeah, catch it." Then, then I said, "Okay," uh, there's a lot of interest from, uh, my wife to come back, and I, I've always been wanting to come back in the back of my mind. So I said, "This is the time." We just applied and came back, and that's how this happened.

Unknown Host 22:13 Nice. So Professor Ananth was like the forcing function, eh?

Speaker 22:15 He was like a catalyst.

Unknown Host 22:17 Catalyst. Oh, I missed that. Yeah, the catalyst. Um-

Speaker 22:21 You're a mechanical engineer. [chuckles]

Unknown Host 22:22 Yes, yes. Yeah, uh, that I thought forcing. [chuckles] Professor, just before we move ahead, I want to say that, uh, because you made that point, uh, my brother studied in IIT Kharagpur and my dad also, so, and my mother also. So I think this, uh, idea that, uh, all the older IITs at least, are very similar, and, uh, I think, uh, many of the faculty here have deep collaborations with other faculty. So I think the point of collaboration and mild competition is noted. [chuckles]

Speaker 22:49 Yeah.

Unknown Host 22:51 Uh, in my family, there's a joke [chuckles] that each of us know which IIT is the best IIT. [chuckles] We just don't talk about it.

Speaker 22:58 Yeah.

Unknown Host 22:58 So, Professor, in your journey, you've written, uh, two books on process control and data science for engineering, so maybe you can give us a little bit understanding of what a data- data science for engineers is all about.

Speaker 23:10 Yeah, I will. I give you [chuckles] some bit about both the books because there is a reason why I wrote both these books.

Unknown Host 23:16 Okay.

Speaker 23:17 And, uh, the first book was on process control. Uh, um, other than my project work, the- there are two courses that I really loved at IIT Madras. One was on reaction engineering, the other one was process control. Because process control was very mathematical, I was naturally inclined, so I really enjoyed that course. Uh, but I still learned that course as pieces of many things. So at some point in my career, I started teaching that course, and then I wanted to see how to simplify it, simplify it, simplify it. Then one day, uh, I... So y- you can't do this for all courses, I think, but this one particular course, one day I had this thought that it looks like everything is revolving around one concept, right? Which is splitting, uh, transfer function. Uh, just a little bit technical here, splitting a transfer function with the numerator and denominator into partial fractions. Okay. Then I said, "Okay, uh, how much of this course can I teach with this one principle as the central rallying principle?"... and I will keep pushing it till it breaks and I need a new concept. So then I realize there is a very nice structure in which you can build this process control, which I used to teach here, and I- the students used to love it, at least from the teacher evaluation, that's what it seemed like. And they also used to come and tell me they used to love the course, and so on. So I thought it's worthwhile to put this in a book, so that's why I wrote the first book. The second book, uh, was again from teaching multiple times. So in fact, um, I think if I... It might be 2016 or even before that, uh, we have a startup called Geetha, uh, Private Limited, and, uh, before that it was Gandida. We used to teach these courses for, uh, industry folks on data science and AI. So I'm talking about eight, nine, ten years back. Now, there are lots of materials, so those days there was not as much material out there. So again, uh, like control, but little different. What are the key, uh, components that we need to teach, uh, the folks in industry? Um, uh, linear algebra, optimization, statistics, and so on, are important for data science and AI. So I started teaching for, uh, industries, companies, uh, these. But then again, I found if you teach linear algebra as linear algebra, it was very abstract, so how do you connect it to data science? So I spent a lot of time... Because, um, you know, if you teach a very abstract, um, two hours to an industry person, uh, they're going to be, um, you know, while they will enjoy the new things they learn, but they'll still say, "How is it connected?" Right? So to make those connections, uh, and m- simplify it so that it is directly a concept on something that is tangible, uh, how do you bring that in, uh, when you teach linear algebra? How do you bring that when you teach statistics? Statistics is even harder, even more abstract. So those things I used to make up some simple ways of explaining these things, and again, I felt this might be worthwhile to, uh, put in a book, and that's why I wrote this Data Science for Engineers book. So the idea was to be theoretically accurate, but at the same time accessible, which is, uh, which is very hard, uh, in general. So that's what I've tried to do. How much I've succeeded [chuckles] is for others to say, but that's, that's the idea of the book.

Unknown Host 27:00 In both these cases, it was earlier a course, which you have been thinking about how to teach the course better. It's moved into a concept that you use in your course and then moved into a book. There's also a lot of rigor involved in writing an engineering book, right? It's not... Maybe, um, maybe people may not realize how hard it could be and how much time and effort and energy it could take.

Speaker 27:20 Many sleepless nights. This process control book, uh, I, um, over a period of five to six years, uh, different offerings, I used to write bits of notes, and then finally, to combine all of those. And then you have all the material now, but you have to make sure all of that is right because you're putting your reputation behind it. You can't have wrong concepts. You know, wrong concepts, not because you know, but because in the moment you are writing something, you can write things wrong and so on, but you don't want to leave them in the book. So that's a big pressure, actually. People might not realize, because we don't want to be saying wrong things. Uh, in a class, it's okay because in the moment, you can say and correct yourself, but in a book, it's there forever.

Unknown Host 28:03 Yeah.

Speaker 28:03 So this process control book, to finish it, uh, COVID happened.

Unknown Host 28:09 Okay.

Speaker 28:09 And, uh, the last bit of finishing it with one of my co-authors, uh, Nirav Bhatt, uh, he used to come home, and we used to sit in the, uh, dining table, uh, listen to music, and keep, uh, checking every bit of the example and so on. So it took a long time to do that.

Unknown Host 28:28 Yeah.

Speaker 28:29 Other than that-

Unknown Host 28:29 And the book is also, like, your peers are going to review it.

Speaker 28:32 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Unknown Host 28:33 They're going to judge it in many ways.

Speaker 28:35 Yeah, yeah. I... Well, I, yeah, that doesn't come in my head as much as I think self-judgment.

Unknown Host 28:43 Yes.

Speaker 28:44 [chuckles] I've got to find something wrong and say, "Wow, did I write this, uh, thing?"

Unknown Host 28:48 Yeah.

Speaker 28:49 So that is a bigger worry for me. Uh, and, uh, the data science book again, uh, because I'd built a lot of material, again, wrote things, uh, but the last bit of two weeks of work to correct everything, I couldn't find at all because I was also the dean for, uh, global engagement here. So there was a trip that I made to the US. I took a two, three week-- two-week break, I think, to go and settle down, uh, our son in University of Washington, Seattle, where he is pursuing a PhD. So I used to... So I stayed in a relative's house. Uh, so I used to have jet lag, so by 2:30, I used to get up. So usually you try to fight jet lag, so this time, uh, over a period of about two weeks, every day, I used to get up at 2:30, go down, have a cup of coffee from 3:00 to 9:00, when no one will come down. Those six hours were spent correcting this. Uh, if, if not for that, I would never have finished this book.

Unknown Host 29:53 Nice. As you are saying this, uh, and you were talking about accuracy, uh, in publishing an academic work, uh, I'm reminded of something Professor Anantha told us. I can't remember when the context was, but the line I remember very clearly. He said, uh... He was talking about a chemistry book, a high school chemistry book, and he said, "All nitrates of silver are soluble, except silver bismuth nitrate," I think. And he was saying that, um, you know, um, uh, it, it has- it is a fully accurate sentence, but you-... he was talking about a class seven book, and he was saying silver bismuth nitrate is very rare, so you could actually write all nitrates are soluble and stop with that. But the writer has to be fully accurate at all times.

Speaker 30:38 So there's another Professor Ananth quote, which he says is not his quote, but the story is good anyway.

Unknown Host 30:43 Yeah.

Speaker 30:43 So I'll tell you this: so apparently, in one test, he had given marks without putting, uh, what is the total marks in the sheet. So apparently, one student asked, he's got some 40 or something. He said, "Professor Ananth, Ananth, I got 40 out of what?" Apparently, Professor Ananth said, "Pity." [laughing] I, I talked to him later about this, and he said, "No, that's not-- that's a quote that is someone else's," that somehow it's morphed onto him, but [laughing] this is a really good story.

Unknown Host 31:17 Nice. I remember also another quote, which is attributed to Professor Ananth, but probably somebody else's. I think the research park was just coming up, and he made this quote saying that, "Every building, I think the day before it's completed, looks like, uh, very dirty, and it looks like a construction site, but the day it's completed and the painting is done, it looks very open." And I think he was reflecting on how long it takes to build something.

Speaker 31:40 How arduous it is.

Unknown Host 31:41 How hard it is, yeah. How hard is it is. Nice.

Unknown Host 31:45 So you mentioned that the second book that you were writing was very difficult because you became the dean for Global Engagement, and, um, it'll be nice for you to explain to us what is Global Engagement. Of course, the students here and some of the, uh, uh, stakeholders have heard of it. Um, maybe you can tell us exactly what it does, how it came about.

Speaker 32:04 Yeah. So at IIT Madras, uh, there was a deanship called International and Alumni Relations Dean. So the international is the global engagement part.

Unknown Host 32:14 INAR, which is, uh-

Speaker 32:16 Professor Nag

Unknown Host 32:17 ... Professor Nag, who's also, I think, a Purdue alumnus.

Speaker 32:20 I don't think so. It's-- both his children are Purdue alums.

Unknown Host 32:23 Okay.

Speaker 32:23 He is from Yale, I think, if I'm not mistaken.

Unknown Host 32:25 Oh, really?

Speaker 32:25 Okay. Uh, but, uh, so if you want a Purdue connection, the dean after, uh, Professor Nag is Mahesh. Mahesh was, uh, uh-

Unknown Host 32:37 Okay

Speaker 32:37 ... a two years junior to me at Purdue.

Unknown Host 32:40 Nice.

Speaker 32:41 And, uh, anyway, I think a year and half into Mahesh's, uh, tenure, uh, there was a collective recognition, I think, that this one deanship for INAR is not tenable anymore, given the wide spectrum of activities that happen. So they split the deanship into two deanships. One was Alumni and Corporate Relations, the other one was Global Engagement.

Unknown Host 33:05 Okay.

Speaker 33:06 And Mahesh continued as Alumni and Corporate Relations, and I became the first Dean of, uh, Global Engagement. So, uh, largely, we know global engagement as interacting with, uh, the, the world, but that's all, uh, that I started with. But then, uh, you kind of think about what that means. Uh, uh, so we organized, um, this Office of Global Engagement in multiple verticals so that there is clarity in terms of what we are trying to do. So one vertical was academic programs. Uh, another vertical was academic, uh, research. Um, another vertical was conferences, and I'll explain what that is. And then, of course, uh, this was not part of the plan when we started it, but, uh, the Institute of Eminence projects, in terms of the research projects, uh, also got finally administered through this office. So the fourth vertical is IoE vertical, so this is how we have organized. So the academic programs means, um, exchange students, getting students from abroad here, sending our students abroad, uh, sending our PhD students abroad, uh, for part of their curriculum, three months, six months, whatever it is. So it's all about, uh, mobility of students, you might want to think of, and also the programs that, uh, uh, come under, um, a, you know, the broad umbrella of academic joint programs, uh, joint doctoral programs, joint master's programs-

Unknown Host 34:45 Sure

Speaker 34:45 ... um, even exchange programs, uh, which are well, uh, structured and so on. So all academic programs where we have students go out and students come in is one vertical. Academic research is, think of-

Unknown Host 35:00 So just on the previous part, the Of- O- Office of Global Engagement is like the sort of the administrative support for all of these programs?

Speaker 35:09 Uh, so f- uh, we-- uh, so for students who come from, uh, abroad, there are lots of things that you need to do: visa, FRRO,

Speaker 35:17 and so on. All of those-

Unknown Host 35:18 Yeah

Speaker 35:18 ... our, uh, office, uh, does. And also reaching out to students, uh, all over the world, telling them these opportunities exist in IIT Madras, is also what we-

Unknown Host 35:30 Okay, so there's an administrative function, there's a publicity kind of-

Speaker 35:32 Publicity, yeah. Uh, and then there's also an academic function. So because there will be students who will say, "I want... What courses can I take?" So then our office will interact with departments and then say, "This student is coming. He or she is interested in all of these courses. Do you have seats in your course for them to take?" And so on. So that, that bit of academic matchmaking also, sometimes it's done. Fair enough, because these credits have to transfer to their-

Unknown Host 35:55 Correct, correct.

Speaker 35:56 But departments do all academics, but we are a very, uh, sliver of an interface which does that, uh, matchmaking.

Speaker 36:05 So all of those, uh, for students who come from-

Unknown Host 36:08 Is it a strategic element also, where you are deciding which universities to work with, or how is the demand flow or, uh-

Speaker 36:14 Yeah, so that has changed tremendously in the last, uh, ten to 15 years, I would say. Initially, wh- when Professor Nag started it, uh, and he's really a pioneer in this, he really thought about a structure for bringing in students, uh, bringing in universities to collaborate with IIT Madras and so on.... uh, those days we might have been looking for universities to say yes to us, but now there is so much, uh, or so many universities which want to work with IIT Madras. It's more a question of, uh, seeing what we want to do. Uh, typically, I don't believe fully in ranking and saying, "Okay, these are top universities. We want to work only with those," because there are top people in all universities. So we want to look at the intent and the strength of the relationship, and what we are going to do, not what the rank of the university are.

Unknown Host 37:08 Sure.

Speaker 37:09 Uh, because there could be a pocket of excellence in some university. It is, uh, the best. You don't want to just say rank and, uh, so.

Unknown Host 37:17 I think you mentioned this earlier also. Sup- suppose a student's interest area is in a particular, say, AI in chemical engineering, which is what you were talking about, maybe there's a top university which doesn't have-

Speaker 37:26 Yep, absolutely

Unknown Host 37:26 ... sort of field there.

Speaker 37:27 Absolutely. So, so in our, in, in, in, in at least academic thinking, we cannot be regimented with ranks and so on. I think that's the... Because we have the ability to discern-

Unknown Host 37:38 Yeah

Speaker 37:38 ... and see what is good. So that's how we, we look at this. So similar thing in academic research, we look at, uh, how we can interact with universities from all over the world, and this is becoming more and more important, given that strategic areas of interest for India if we can make these connections. So we build capacity here faster, and so on. So universities are becoming very, very important in nation building in that sense. So if there is a new area, we don't have much capacity, then we can make these connections and build capacity here, and so on. Semiconductor was one such-

Unknown Host 38:12 Yes

Speaker 38:12 ... such example.

Unknown Host 38:13 I think there's a joint program in semiconductor.

Speaker 38:15 Yeah, there is a letter of intent with, uh, Purdue University, and there are a lot more-

Unknown Host 38:18 Oh, Purdue is back. [chuckles]

Speaker 38:19 Yeah. Then there's a lot more, uh, interest that is coming up, so we are looking at it.

Speaker 38:25 Uh, international conferences is a very important aspect. I think we have run several international conferences inside campus, and the reason why we do this is because we want to give the students an opportunity to listen to the best, network with the best, and so on, right here in the campus. So this is another activity, uh, that we do from, uh, the Office of Global Engagement. Um, and administering Institute of Eminence, uh, schemes, that's something that-

Unknown Host 38:54 The Institute of Eminence scheme is the government of India scheme, where the government has identified, I think, 15... I don't know the exact numbers.

Speaker 39:01 Six or seven-

Unknown Host 39:02 Oh

Speaker 39:02 ... for whom they've given 1,000 crores.

Unknown Host 39:04 Okay, so the, the IIT Madras is-

Speaker 39:07 Yeah

Unknown Host 39:07 ... And I know that IIT Bombay is also.

Speaker 39:08 IIT Bombay is.

Unknown Host 39:09 Oh.

Speaker 39:09 IIT Delhi is.

Unknown Host 39:10 And then it's up to the institute to decide how to use the grant?

Speaker 39:13 Yes, and at IIT Madras, we have this-- we have used 60 to 70% of the money for research projects, and even that, we didn't come top down and say, "These are the research areas that we work on." Instead, we said, "Bottom up, organically, find what groups can actually do the best work." So through a two-phase proposal process, we identified groups and funded them, so that's the Institute of Eminence scheme. And so these are all schemes inside here, serving the community of IIT Madras, by reaching out to, uh, uh, other parts of the world, but the activities are anchored here. Uh, but, uh, the next generation of ideas are actually to take IIT Madras out.

Speaker 39:59 It is to bring all... The first part was, all that I said was to bring the world to IIT Madras, in some sense, by, by even sending our students out, bringing students in, sending our faculty out, uh, bringing faculty in, and so on. But whole scale, how do you take IIT Madras, uh, outside of, uh, India, is the, uh, next thinking, uh, that, that, uh-

Unknown Host 40:25 Are we approaching the IIT Zanzibar topic?

Speaker 40:27 Yeah, we are approaching two IIT Zanzibar as a main topic, and, uh, other effort, which is, uh, more recent, uh, we have started about six, seven months back, this idea of IITM Global. So these are the two things that we are, um, yeah.

Unknown Host 40:43 So overall, academic programs, uh, collaboration with universities abroad, research programs, collaboration with university abroad, conferences, uh, that can be set up here, international conferences, or maybe, uh, does it also, like, stu- students or faculty from here going to conferences?

Speaker 40:58 That also we fund, but the focus of conference secretariat here is to help run international conferences here.

Unknown Host 41:06 Yeah. And then the Institute of Eminence scheme, which is a major grant, uh, that's given to IIT, how to administer it within our campus. Okay, and, and lastly, you were talking about, uh, taking, uh, all these, uh, initiatives, uh, how do you scale them up? And, uh, so therefore, there's this new thing called IITM Global, which is almost like... Is it like setting outposts?

Speaker 41:28 So I'll come to that. So, um, so the first thing about going out is, what is, what is it is that you're going out as,

Speaker 41:39 right? So IIT Madras Zanzibar is the first offshore campus of IIT Madras.

Unknown Host 41:47 Of any IIT?

Speaker 41:48 Of any IIT, uh, and IIT Madras. [chuckles]

Unknown Host 41:53 Yeah. [chuckles]

Speaker 41:53 IIT Delhi has a-

Unknown Host 41:55 Abu Dhabi

Speaker 41:55 ... campus in Abu Dhabi, and I assume there will be more IITs that will set up, based on, uh, the learnings from these new-

Unknown Host 42:04 Sure

Speaker 42:04 ... efforts. Uh, and there are different ways in which you can, uh, set up, uh, an abroad campus. We have thought about IIT Madras Zanzibar campus as a microcosm of IIT Madras campus. In other words, if you think of a Indian university setting up a campus in a foreign country, it can be purely for degree programs, so it's a, it becomes a degree-granting college or a university. At IIT Madras Zanzibar, right from the beginning, our vision has been that-... initially, it'll be a smaller version of IIT Madras, but it'll do everything that IIT Madras does.

Unknown Host 42:49 Okay.

Speaker 42:49 So what that means is that IIT Madras Zanzibar campus will have degree programs. IIT Madras Zanzibar will have research.

Unknown Host 42:58 Okay.

Speaker 42:59 IIT Madras Zanzibar will have, uh, outreach to companies and industries for skilling programs. IIT Madras Zanzibar will do consultancy for companies, uh, in the region, and innovation incubation will also become a part of IIT Madras.

Unknown Host 43:15 Sure. So we're talking about teaching, uh, placements, industrial consultancy-

Speaker 43:19 Yes

Unknown Host 43:20 ... research, granting PhDs, um-

Speaker 43:22 Innovation.

Unknown Host 43:23 The innovation stack.

Speaker 43:24 Yeah.

Unknown Host 43:25 All of the things.

Speaker 43:25 Skilling. All the things that we do at IIT Madras, we want to see them in IIT Madras Zanzibar campus. Clearly, at a smaller scale to start with. But the DNA should be such that it is not viewed as a degree-granting campus. It is viewed as a full-fledged campus, which in fullness of time, uh, will scale to be one of the best in East Africa. So that is the vision with which we have started IIT Madras Zanzibar campus. And currently, there are three programs in IIT Madras Zanzibar. There is a Bachelor of Science in Data Science and AI, a Master of Technology in Data Science and AI, and a Master of Technology in Ocean Structures.

Unknown Host 44:09 Okay.

Speaker 44:10 And, uh, in the second year of operation, the campus has around, I think, hundred and six students. We have, uh, hired five permanent faculty.

Unknown Host 44:21 I have this question.

Speaker 44:22 Yeah.

Unknown Host 44:22 Do they have admissions via JEE?

Speaker 44:24 Uh, they don't have admissions via...

Unknown Host 44:26 So how is the admissions like?

Speaker 44:28 So there is a separate testing committee that is set up at IIT Madras, which comes up with a test, and that tested- test is administered all over the world, including India.

Unknown Host 44:38 Okay.

Speaker 44:39 And students pass the test, then there is an interview that is conducted, and then there is a selection there.

Unknown Host 44:45 Okay, so it's a- it's admitting students into these three courses from Zanzibar, but also-

Speaker 44:50 No, from all over the world.

Unknown Host 44:51 Okay, from all over the world.

Speaker 44:53 So, uh, and including India. So currently, we have, uh, out of the hundred and six students, I would say, uh, about forty-five to fifty percent Indian students, actually, about maybe thirty percent students from Zanzibar, and the remaining from other parts of the world, uh, Zambia, Kenya.

Unknown Host 45:16 These are other East African countries?

Speaker 45:18 I- it's open to every country. Uh, but right now, we have started getting students from East Africa, and I, I think over time, we'll get students from all over Africa and ultimately, maybe from other parts of the world, Middle East, South America, and so on. So we'll have to see how that goes. So it's a truly international campus. We want-

Unknown Host 45:42 From day one, it's an international campus.

Speaker 45:44 International campus. From day one, it's an international campus, and the government of Zanzibar is fully aligned with this view. So in fact, when we talked to them first and then said: "How do you view this? Do you view this as for Zanzibar students?" They said, "We want this to be a truly international campus. We want, uh, this campus to show that we can get the best of education in Zanzibar to the whole world." That's the way they think about it.

Unknown Host 46:11 Nice. So students who join the courses... So you were saying that there are three courses, and it's expanding.

Speaker 46:18 It's expanding, and we will do a very rational expansion in terms of what are the needs for Africa. So initially, we went with these, uh, courses, uh, in data science and AI because they're very current, they are relevant, and so on. But the other courses now, we'll have to look at what are, what are the needs for the immediate region and so on, and then decide what we will do, uh, in terms of introducing, uh, new courses. Uh, but I was saying, in terms of the faculty who teach, I think the students in IIT Madras Zanzibar have a very unique advantage in the sense that we are also bringing faculty, uh, from everywhere to come and teach. Uh, and again, in the next, uh, few, uh, few years, you'll have faculty from all parts of the world who will come and teach there. Uh, so we have, uh, five permanent faculty in the campus, four are of Indian origin and one is of Kenyan origin. And, uh, we get faculty from the main campus to go and teach. Uh, we are going to get faculty from other IITs to go and teach a course at a time and come. And then we'll get faculty from other universities across the world to come and teach. So in that sense, the students of Zanzibar are going to really get an eclectic mix of really good faculty who come and teach there. I- we think that'll really broaden their understanding of, uh, not only the subject, but a broader understanding of the world that we operate in.

Unknown Host 47:53 So one of the big draws of joining a campus like that is that there is a, there's a mix of students and a mix of faculty-

Speaker 47:59 Faculty

Unknown Host 47:59 ... I think the, I would think, I mean, of course, uh, it depends on the student, but some students would simply be attracted by the idea that it's a new thing, and, uh, if I'm part of this new thing, then, you know, I'll grow with it, and I'll get more opportunities. And anyway, because it's an IIT Madras brand, it- the risk is much less.

Speaker 48:20 Yeah, yeah. And I think, you know, it's an IIT Madras brand first, so you get an IIT Madras degree, which is, uh, one of the most important things. Uh, of course, the second thing is you get a wider perspective, uh, when you sit with, uh, students at, uh, with, uh, very different nationalities. Uh, and again, as you said, when you get taught by faculty from different, uh, universities and so on. So I think holistically-... it'll be a great experience because-

Unknown Host 48:51 Mm

Speaker 48:52 ... you know, the college is not about just getting a degree, right? All of us know, right? And the skills that, uh, that you need to develop, other than your technical skills-

Unknown Host 49:01 Yeah

Speaker 49:02 ... and that is even more important in this age. And I, I, I s- say this, uh, if you are a chemical engineer, uh, graduating from a college about 40 years back, you can pretty much imagine yourself retiring as a chemical engineer, right? But if you are a chemical, or an electrical, or a mechanical engineering, engineer graduating out of class right today, today, I think it will be foolish to actually think that you'll retire as a mechanical, or electrical, or a chemical. So the, the idea of the interdisciplinary skills technically-

Unknown Host 49:38 Yeah

Speaker 49:39 ... and the ability to work with people globally-

Unknown Host 49:41 Yeah

Speaker 49:42 ... right, and the ability to adapt and think of yourself as someone who's going to add value based on what you can do, not based on just your degree.

Unknown Host 49:53 Yeah.

Speaker 49:53 I think these are all very important aspects that, uh, students need to understand. And what better place to understand this than a completely international setting-

Unknown Host 50:01 Yeah

Speaker 50:02 ... is the way I would think today.

Unknown Host 50:03 Fair enough. The engineering today, or the silos of engineering that we have set up, are, like, 200 years old, and they're sort of broken-

Speaker 50:11 Yeah

Unknown Host 50:11 ... completely.

Unknown Host 50:13 Um, [chuckles] can we spend one minute talking about the director of IIT Madras Zanzibar? Because she's amazing, right?

Speaker 50:19 Yeah, yeah.

Unknown Host 50:20 Um, Professor Preeti-

Speaker 50:21 Pre-

Unknown Host 50:21 ... was a professor here, uh, and now she's fully based in Zanzibar.

Speaker 50:26 Yeah, she is fully based in Zanzibar, and in fact, uh, [chuckles] there is an interesting parallel. She also started at IIT Bombay.

Unknown Host 50:34 Yeah.

Speaker 50:34 Though we didn't overlap. I, I was there when she was interviewed, but by the time she joined, I had left. She's doing a really amazing job. Uh, it's a very hard job. Uh, setting up a university is a hard job. Setting up a university with an Indian character-

Unknown Host 50:52 Oh, yeah

Speaker 50:52 ... abroad-

Unknown Host 50:53 Yeah

Speaker 50:53 ... is harder. And, uh, the way the setup is, uh, in terms of where the money comes from, and so on, uh, is quite complicated, so you have to navigate all of those. And clearly, uh, though, um, I have been outside in the US for several years, and, uh, Preeti has done her, uh, graduate studies in the US and so on, though we can claim to have some international exposure, but the kind of international [chuckles] exposure that is required for something like a Zanzibar is totally different, right? Because, uh-

Unknown Host 51:31 But also in US, uh, and you mentioned it, like, you have a lot of Indians already there, and you're being supported. Yeah.

Speaker 51:38 Here also, I think there are Indians still there, but still, we are getting students from various parts of Africa. We have to learn the culture. We have to understand the culture. Uh, so those are things that we have not done before.

Unknown Host 51:51 Fair.

Speaker 51:51 So, so you start with, uh, everything from setting up infrastructure, to academic programs, uh, to administratively figuring out finances, uh, approvals, all of those, and on top of it, learning the culture so that you don't have many missteps, right? So this is not an easy job. So this is-

Unknown Host 52:13 Yeah, you, you have to be-

Speaker 52:13 Very

Unknown Host 52:14 ... administrative head, you have to be the publicity head, you have to be the academic head.

Speaker 52:18 You have to be everything.

Unknown Host 52:19 A- and you have to, um, be a friend to the students because they're new, and they're from all over the world.

Speaker 52:25 But I think, uh, the initial days have been very, uh, very good. And I have to say that the intent with which the people in Zanzibar are coming to this is really fantastic.

Unknown Host 52:39 Yeah.

Speaker 52:40 Okay, so there might be things that we have to discuss and, uh, identify, figure out, but the intention has always been fantastic.

Unknown Host 52:48 Mm.

Speaker 52:49 They're very clear that this is an institute that has to be the best. Uh, how we get there, we have to discuss. There are multiple ways to get there. We will discuss. But the intent and support has been fantastic. That I have to say.

Unknown Host 53:03 I want to draw a parallel here and note some very significant differences. Um, when India became independent in the, in the 40- in '47, and that time there was a Sarkar committee which recommended IIT, I- IITs be set up, and then, uh, IIT Kharagpur got set up, and IIT Madras, and Bombay all got set up. And IIT Madras got a lot of help from Germany. Um, I think, uh, a state-sponsored help, like the g- government of, uh, West Germany helped us. There were faculty here. I don't know whether there was funding from them, but, uh, uh, definitely I've heard, uh, seniors talk about German professors being here, and we maybe inherited a little bit of their culture, uh, in terms of the a- a- academic engineering rigor, because they are an engineering nation. Um, and now we are helping another country set up a higher education institute, but the times have totally changed, right? We were a post-colonial, uh, country. Uh, Germany was a colonist. Um, not a colonist in, in, in the sense that they colonized us, but in Germany. It's totally different here. We can't have that kind of... We have to have a very, uh, a friendly, uh, kind of relationship, right?

Speaker 54:15 So I would say, uh, uh, German professors would have also been very friendly, right? So I don't think there is any difference there because, y- you know, after being in Zanzibar, I'm going next week again, to kind of, uh, go there and be there, be away from home, and do work there, I can imagine how difficult it would have been for German professors to do that, now that in hindsight, when I see my own experience, right? There is a passion to make a change, and I cannot imagine there would have been anything else that would have allowed these professors to come. It's not that the government would have said, "If you don't go, this will happen," right? People volunteered to come, and I think that is the spirit of academics, that-... the idea that I want to develop, uh, a region educationally is one of the most important tenets of, uh, academics, or it should be. So in that sense, I think, uh, there won't have been, uh... the colonial connotation wouldn't have been there. But I can tell you slightly, um, uh, in this topic, you know, when we go to Zanzibar, w- uh, we've not gone, or we should not go with the idea that I'm coming to uplift, uh, people. It is just that we are learning from each other, and we are trying to do the best we can. It's as simple as that. And if we really do well, and if it becomes a beacon of, uh, excellence, I think that's the most wonderful thing that, uh, IIT Madras would have done. Yeah. You know, because it's a very unique opportunity. You can, you can say countries have influence on countries and so on, but, you know, Zanzibar is a very small country, so to speak, right? It's about two million people, and if IIT Madras has a technological effect on every aspect of this country, then you can say there's an institute that has made a difference to a country, which is, which is something which is very unique, which is not easy to get.

Unknown Host 56:20 Yeah.

Speaker 56:20 Uh, and this is not because it's just IIT Madras, it's also because of the smallness in terms of the population of the country, where you could, you could make a difference like this. So you can think of, uh, think of this in multiple ways, but fundamentally, you go with the intention of doing good.

Unknown Host 56:39 Yeah.

Speaker 56:40 And in this case, IIT Madras is not benefiting, uh, financially at all.

Unknown Host 56:45 Yeah.

Speaker 56:47 So, uh, in that sense, we are truly going there to-

Unknown Host 56:51 You're saying that the reason we are doing it is more from an academic exploration-

Speaker 56:55 Absolutely

Unknown Host 56:55 ... cultural exchange kind of point of view?

Speaker 56:57 Yes. Yes.

Unknown Host 56:58 That makes sense.

Speaker 56:59 Absolutely. Absolutely.

Unknown Host 57:01 Um, and, uh, so, m- uh, maybe I should s- just also on behalf of everybody watching and all the stakeholders, also congratulate you, uh, and the department for being able to pull it off. One year is over, right? So the first batch which joined would have- will be f- giving their final exams.

Speaker 57:16 No, no, no, the second, uh, batch is already in.

Unknown Host 57:19 Okay.

Speaker 57:20 So two batches are on, and the first batch of master's students will graduate in another four months. So we'll have the first batch of, uh, alumni coming out in four months out of IIT Madras Science.

Unknown Host 57:32 Nice. Congrats.

Speaker 57:33 So, so, um, uh, the second, uh, effort that I mentioned was IITM Global.

Unknown Host 57:39 Yeah.

Speaker 57:40 So, so IIT Madras Zanzibar is a campus, so which was set up through a tripartite agreement between the government of India, government of Zanzibar, and IIT Madras. It's a very complicated process, a very heavy process, and so on. So we also, uh, think that there are things in IIT Madras that we can take global, but not as a campus, but as something simpler. So what we are looking at, or we have already set up, uh, something called IITM Global, which will basically take our research that is being done at IIT Madras, the patents that are being generated at IIT Madras, and the startups that are coming into the IIT Madras ecosystem, and take them collectively together through a platform to multiple countries, and that vehicle or the platform is what we are calling as IITM Global.

Unknown Host 58:36 Okay.

Speaker 58:36 So there will be a physical presence of IITM Global i, in a few countries, where we will facilitate, um, research, uh, uh, contracts through, uh, this entity for IIT Madras faculty, uh, which are of relevance to the local region. Uh, we will-

Unknown Host 58:59 Like a physical outpost-

Speaker 59:00 Yeah

Unknown Host 59:00 ... like a trading post, you would say. No, I mean, it's not a trading post, I know.

Speaker 59:04 Yeah, it's a, it's an [chuckles] academic post still-

Unknown Host 59:07 Yeah

Speaker 59:07 ... but focused on research, innovation, and IP.

Unknown Host 59:11 Sure.

Speaker 59:11 Because almost all academic institutions are- have to think about innovation, have to think about, uh, intellectual property, and so on. So these aspects, which we have done well, we w- we want to take it to other countries as IITM Global. So that thought also comes a little bit from IIT Madras Zanzibar. It, it's not a campus, but it is a physical presence of IIT Madras, uh, where we take, as I said before, the research, the IP, the innovation, the startup.

Unknown Host 59:46 I w- I want to ask you, have other IITs done this? Have other universities done this? Are this-- Is this a common model?

Speaker 59:51 I won't call it a common model. Um, many universities, when they come to other countries, uh, it is more for giving out their degrees and, uh, if I may say, it is a little more commercial in that sense.

Unknown Host 1:00:08 Sure.

Speaker 1:00:08 But, uh, to take a research, innovation, incubation ecosystem of your university outside, uh, there might be a few, but not common.

Unknown Host 1:00:18 Okay, understood. Wow, um, we covered so much. I want to note here that when you were talking of Professor Preeti, and you were talking about how she wears multiple hats, that's something that you've also done here. Quite

Unknown Host 1:00:31 often, you're-- we started by talking about your own research area, the courses you teach, uh, and then we spoke about the books you wrote, and then, um, uh, we moved on to, um, uh, the IITM Global. But in the middle, you were also, um, you know, part of the Center for Robert Bosch... Rou- the Robert Bosch Center, and now you're part of the Walmart Center for Tech Excellence. So, um, and, and there are three startups that you are part of. So I think maybe we can talk about the startups a little bit, and then, uh, my quest- bigger question is, how does, uh, an academic like yourself manage all these things, and what are the challenges involved?... Should we start with the startups first?

Speaker 1:01:08 Yeah, sure. So very quick-- so very quickly, I've been involved with, uh, three startups. Um, we started GAN Data Private Limited more than a decade ago, uh, with the idea that some of the work that we had done in data science, uh, targeting as a manufacturing process industries, uh, could be made into products. That's how we started GAN Data. But over the years, GAN Data has been doing several projects on, uh, data science and AI services in the manufacturing industry. So that is GAN Data.

Unknown Host 1:01:42 2011 means it would have been one early incubatee, or one of the ear-

Speaker 1:01:45 One of the very, very f- f- very few first ones from IIT Madras. In fact, I came in 2011, May, to IIT Madras. I think we incubated this, if I'm not mistaken, July of, of 2011, with Professor Shankar Narasimhan, who is my co-founder, and, uh, who's been at IIT Madras longer than I have been, and works in the same or similar areas to mine. Uh, while at GAN Data, there was a lot of interest in-- from companies in terms of learning about this data science and AI. So we spun off a company called Geetha Private Limited, which was focused on, uh-

Unknown Host 1:02:21 Yeah

Speaker 1:02:21 ... education. But, um, Geetha has, uh, grown into a education company, and we are also building a product called InstaQP, which is, um, a product which will help, uh, with assessments and question papers, and so on. And, um, I-- while I have worked quite a bit on data science and AI, my, uh, chemical engineering track always runs. And, um, I used to work on identifying failures in fuel cell system, because my original research area was fault detection and diagnosis, and applying that to fuel cells because of a connect that came when I was a faculty in IIT Bombay. So there is this lab called NMRL in Ambernath, and, uh, there was somebody who was building fuel cell systems. And then, because I worked in fault detection diagnosis, uh, we started thinking about how to apply some of these techniques for fuel cell systems. So I learned fuel cells from that time, and we have a company called Elysius, which is looking at, uh, building a newer, uh, architecture for, uh, film fuel cells.

Unknown Host 1:03:31 Okay.

Speaker 1:03:32 So those are the, uh, three startups. Now, your other question, I think a lot of people misunderstand what a faculty does. So even my dad, uh-

Unknown Host 1:03:43 [chuckles]

Speaker 1:03:43 ... he used to think a faculty goes, teaches a certain number of hours, and then everything else is free. So whenever there is, uh-- whenever I used to tell him that I have no class, but I work, he will ask me, "What work?" [chuckles] Because I've taught my class. But I think, um, uh, even those days it was wrong notion, but those days, I think, uh, a faculty's life was largely restricted to classroom teaching and research. But now, um, most successful faculty have to wear multiple hats. It's not just a few. Almost everyone who is successful has to wear, uh, multiple hats. You have to be a good teacher, you have to be a good researcher, you have to be a good manager. And the reason why you have to be a good manager is, if you're a good researcher, you are successful, you are pulling in grants, your research group is large. And whether it's a company group, research group, whatever it is, uh, humans are human, so you have to handle all kinds of emotions, so you have to be a good manager. You have to be a good administrator, uh, and, and if you're also in- interested in innovation, uh, startups, and so on, then you have to learn this also, how to, how to raise money, how to, how to deliver, uh, products, and so on. These are all things that are not at all there in an academic lexicon, right? You don't talk about delivering products. You talk about, uh, trying to do research, work on whatever I like, uh, so on. So that part has changed considerably. So really successful academics have to do, uh, uh, many things, uh, and do many things well. So it, it is a challenge. It is a challenge. You have to have, uh, really good time management skills, number one. Uh, you have to be able to take, uh, success and failure with equanimity. Uh, don't get overjoyed, uh, with success or, uh, too depressed with failures. And in general, the philosophy I have in my life is, you sort of enjoy every experience. You go with the flow. Don't think that you're doing great stuff, too many things, "I am doing this and that." Just say, "These are all opportunities which, uh, I wanted to have, which I have." So just do the best you can, and some of them will succeed, some of them will fail. But if you don't take too much pride in the success or too-- lose too much heart in the failure, you will be all right. Because ultimately, you know that you're making a difference in that. So that's how I think, I think about it. And I-- and the younger faculty are starting on this much before people like me, uh, in, in terms of age, right? So if I look at the young faculty now, and the number of things that they're doing to my time, uh, now it's a lot more, and they have to keep this up for all their academic career. So it's important to pace yourself, think about what is important, that's-

Unknown Host 1:06:51 It's beautiful the way you said it. Uh, one is that I know we spoke about faculty life, but what you said is true of any person. If you're doing well, your existing opportunities will grow, you'll get new opportunities, and you'll take them on.... and you have to be able to handle all of that. Um, but the other thing that also sort of you implied is that I know, uh, the, the hats, they keep adding up. It's not like you're removing one hat and adding one. It's not like you stop being a researcher and now you're an administrator. You're, you're first a teacher, then a teacher plus a researcher, then a teacher plus a researcher plus an administrator, [chuckles] and it's now, uh, yeah. You take care of the breadth and the depth at the same time.

Speaker 1:07:35 That's right. I mean, that's not easy, so you have to expect that some of the things won't go right, some will go right, and so on.

Unknown Host 1:07:45 Professor, in that context, how do you relax?

Speaker 1:07:49 Oh, right now, [chuckles] whatever time I get, I do watch, uh, TV with my wife quite a bit.

Unknown Host 1:07:57 Okay, so OTT is, uh... What are your favorite shows?

Speaker 1:08:01 Many. We are very, uh, eclectic in our taste, shall I say?

Unknown Host 1:08:06 Okay.

Speaker 1:08:09 We've seen, uh, OTT Tamil shows, English, Hindi, um, uh... And, and the most amazing thing is, uh, the quality of some of these in any language is just amazing. So, so I can tell you, really fantastic Hindi, uh, shows that we have seen, English, Tamil, and so on. So that is one, uh, large bit of-

Unknown Host 1:08:35 May I also mention that you mentioned you're watching TV with your wife? Uh, also because, you know, there's this commentary going online about just working a lot, and, uh, the spouse sometimes-

Speaker 1:08:45 I like looking at my spouse.

Unknown Host 1:08:46 Yeah.

Speaker 1:08:46 Very right.

Unknown Host 1:08:47 I didn't say it, it was- [laughing]

Speaker 1:08:50 [chuckles] I'm, uh, we enjoy very similar shows, so I think it's, it's, it's very nice, uh, that-- Yeah. I used to play tennis, which I stopped. Um, I, uh, um, after coming back to India, I started learning Carnatic flute.

Unknown Host 1:09:06 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:07 Uh, I learned, uh, for six years, very diligently. I used to practice an hour and half every day, two hours, uh, even with all the other things. But that I've not been able to do at all, uh, two years. I hope to pick that back up, uh, once, uh, my deanship gets over.

Unknown Host 1:09:25 Yeah.

Speaker 1:09:25 Uh, and, uh, I, I enjoy writing, so I want to write on other things, not, uh, um, purely technical, but still with data and analysis in other fields. So that, I think, actually I would put it under relaxation, where, uh, it, it's not immediate, uh, your technical field, and so.

Unknown Host 1:09:51 Nice. Professor, that was amazing. Uh, I think I've covered most of what we want to talk about.

Unknown Host 1:09:56 Uh, we missed talking a little bit about the Walmart Center for Tech Excellence. I think it's new-ish.

Speaker 1:10:01 Yeah.

Unknown Host 1:10:02 Maybe in the last one year.

Speaker 1:10:03 The last one, yeah. So Walmart gave us a nice CSR grant for, uh, looking at how you bring, uh, AI, ML, IoT, and so on to MSMEs.

Unknown Host 1:10:16 Okay.

Speaker 1:10:16 So the idea is that, um, uh, it's very difficult to hire really good AI ML scientists in a company that is, uh, you know, somewhere in the fifty crore revenue. Because the salaries of these people, shuttles are so high, and the profit margins are very tight. And even if you hire someone who will implement things, uh, after a while, they're going to be grabbed by one of these big companies. So, uh, while there's a lot of democratization of these technologies, mm, things are, um, put into libraries that are easy to use, you don't have to do much coding, uh, things like that. But there is still a lot of, uh, things that you need to understand to be able to implement, see the results of your implementation, so on.

Unknown Host 1:11:07 Sure, you're talking about, say, a fifty crore, hundred crore revenue company, which is operating at a good margin. They're in a good place. They could invest in ML, but it's really hard because even though the algorithms and the libraries and everything are available, the people who could help them implement them are-

Speaker 1:11:21 Are very expensive, and they won't stay for long. And then it's not as if you implement a solution, and it stays there.

Unknown Host 1:11:28 It'll keep working.

Speaker 1:11:28 Much like anything, keep working on it, and so on. So the idea is, how do you, uh, help these MSMEs? Broadly, that is what the, uh, problem that we are trying to solve through the CSR grant and Walmart Center for Tech Excellence. So early time-- early days, uh, we are-

Unknown Host 1:11:46 It's very interesting because this is also, like, sort of building up, uh, on the... Earlier, you were talking about educating more people in, um, AI and ML techniques, and you were also talking about making it easier for people to pick up.

Speaker 1:11:59 Absolutely. So-- And, um, we have had some very interesting learnings in the last one year. Much like everything else, you start with a core of an idea, and then the first year is really-- Everything is like a startup at some level, right?

Unknown Host 1:12:12 Yeah.

Speaker 1:12:12 You have a core of an idea, and then you try, uh, yeah, various facets of that idea. Some work, some don't work. But it's taken us a year now, but I think we now have a very, very clear roadmap for the next four years. So that is something that, again, I'll pursue more vigorously once, uh-

Unknown Host 1:12:31 Good

Speaker 1:12:31 ... my deanship is done.

Unknown Host 1:12:33 Professor, thank you so much. Um, any parting words before we leave?

Speaker 1:12:36 I had a lot of fun, Amrit, and, uh, if I want to say, I was very happy to see the interviewer being more nervous than the interviewee at the beginning. [laughing] I don't know whether you're going to edit this out.

Unknown Host 1:12:48 No, but I will... [laughing]

Speaker 1:12:51 But it was a, a real pleasure to talk to you, and thank you so much. And even before this, uh, interview, a good chat, uh, we had, and I think it's a great thing that, uh, you're trying to do for IIT Madras.

Unknown Host 1:13:05 Thank you, sir. Uh, thank you for watching. That was The Best Place to Build podcast with Professor Raghu. Please like, share, and subscribe. I say it every time, but very few people do it, so please do it. Thank you. [outro music]