Prof. Satya Chakravarthy| "Takes off like a drone, flies like a plane"| Ep. 7 | IIT Madras

1. 0:00 – 1:25

   Intro

   1. SCSatya Chakravarthy0:00

      The Agnikul 3D printed rocket packs more, more technology than the largest of the rockets. In my view, the universal principle is follow your heart. In, in good time, we will actually get Hyperloop to actually do Chennai, Bangalore in 15 to 20 minutes. We build the shortest winged eVTOLs in the world, so that we will be able to land in highly tight spaces, and pick you up from where you are, take you to where you want to go. So we are, we are looking at first commercial flights happening sometime in 2026. [upbeat music]

   2. SPSpeaker0:35

      Hi, my name is Amrit. We've heard that IIT Madras is the best place to build. [upbeat music] So we've come down to the Sudha and Shankar Innovation Hub. We want to meet some people. These are builders. We want to talk to them about their work, and also ask them, what makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music] Hello, and welcome. This is the Best Place to Build podcast. Today, we are with Dr. Satya Chakravarthy. He's a professor at IIT Madras in Aeronautical Department. Uh, he's also a co-founder in multiple companies, including The ePlane Company, and we'll talk about it a lot today. He's the head of the National Centre for Combustion Research and Development at IIT Madras. Welcome, Professor Satya. Uh, good morning, and,

2. 1:25 – 6:20

   Student at IIT Madras and PhD at Georgia Tech University

   1. SPSpeaker1:25

      uh, before anything, I want to know... I mean, I think we should start from the very beginning, and you were a student at IIT Madras, right? Which years were you here? How was insti like back then? And, uh, most, uh, interesting to me would be to know if insti lingo was still a thing then, and how did it sound like?

   2. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:42

      Well, yeah, I was, uh, here as a BTech student, uh, in aerospace, uh, from 1987 to 1991. I was in, uh, Alak, is the hostel in which I was. Um, insti lingo was huge, uh, back then when compared to what I can see now, uh, to the extent I can interact with students, but students won't talk the lingo to me. [chuckles] So I think the insti was, like, far more laid back when compared to what it is today.

   3. SPSpeaker2:06

      Did you have, uh, the culture of giving nicknames? Did you have a nickname?

   4. SCSatya Chakravarthy2:09

      I did. I do- I still do. I still do carry the nickname.

   5. SPSpeaker2:12

      Can I... May I ask?

   6. SCSatya Chakravarthy2:13

      Yeah, it is, it's, it's a, it's a very nice nickname to have. It's, it's... I, I was called Mama.

   7. SPSpeaker2:17

      You were called Mama. And is there a funda behind it?

   8. SCSatya Chakravarthy2:20

      Um, maybe I was actually a bit bigger than other people.

   9. SPSpeaker2:23

      Ah, okay. [chuckles] Nice. Damn cool. Um, when you say insti was more laid back, uh, what, what do you mean? Like, was there lesser academic pressure? Was there less... I, I don't know what that means.

   10. SCSatya Chakravarthy2:35

       We did not feel academic pressure as such. Um, but, uh, uh, academics was difficult. Uh, we had to, we- particularly in aero. Aero is actually an extremely difficult branch to be in, uh, it- while you are a student, but you really enjoy what you're doing once you get out of there, um, and so on. Because you have to get down to things like, uh, some fourth-order partial differential equations and all of those sets. It's, it's highly mathematical now. So we enjoyed doing that, but, uh, they, they will, they will give you assignments. You have to keep beyond the toes and stuff, but it was not exactly like pressure, it was just work. And, uh, uh, professors were actually a lot more laid back, uh, as I could see. Um, they were a lot more approachable back then, or at least we- you don't see students approaching us as much [chuckles] today. I don't know why, and so on. Yeah. So there is, there is, uh, de- definitely, uh, something a bit more personal back then when compared to a bit more impersonal these days.

   11. SPSpeaker3:34

       Could be a lot due to, you know, now there's the internet and YouTube-

   12. SCSatya Chakravarthy3:37

       Absolutely

   13. SPSpeaker3:37

       ... and social media.

   14. SCSatya Chakravarthy3:38

       Absolutely. I was just gonna say that. There is a lot more stuff around that can actually keep you occupied today when compared to only a few options like that back then.

   15. SPSpeaker3:46

       Fair enough. My dad was a professor, and I remember his students coming home, and we would have these dinners. I mean, I was a child, so I, I don't know what they were talking about, but it did feel quite personal.

   16. SCSatya Chakravarthy3:55

       Correct.

   17. SPSpeaker3:57

       Uh, was Saarang there? Was, um-

   18. SCSatya Chakravarthy3:59

       It was called Maadi Ground.

   19. SPSpeaker4:00

       Okay.

   20. SCSatya Chakravarthy4:01

       It was actually huge, even back then. Uh, okay.

   21. SPSpeaker4:03

       And if I may ask, who was headlining the pro shows?

   22. SCSatya Chakravarthy4:06

       Well, I did once, uh, I mean, as a, as a coordinator, uh, if you, if you asked. Uh, back then, I think, uh, there was, there was a bit of a cultural, uh, moment. Um, I think, uh, IIT, IITM was actually kind of partnering with SPIC MACAY, and SPIC MACAY was telling them, "Why don't you actually have more, uh, Desi stuff?" So for example, when I coordinated, there was Pankaj Udas.

   23. SPSpeaker4:29

       Oh, nice.

   24. SCSatya Chakravarthy4:30

       And, uh, there was, uh, Amjad Ali Khan, so yeah.

   25. SPSpeaker4:34

       I'm catching from here that you were a pro show coordinator, or a pro show co-

   26. SCSatya Chakravarthy4:37

       Oh, man, that's gonna be interesting. [chuckles]

   27. SPSpeaker4:40

       Yeah.

   28. SCSatya Chakravarthy4:40

       Shit. [chuckles] Today, today that, uh, I think the word used is POR, positions of risk.

   29. SPSpeaker4:45

       Correct.

   30. SCSatya Chakravarthy4:45

       We didn't have, we didn't have that, uh, thing.
3. 6:20 – 8:48

   Aerospace or CS? Passion vs Paycheck? Your Ultimate Career Dilemma!

   1. SPSpeaker6:20

      I think I feel that in class 10, 11, 12, um, aero is a very interesting subject to study, or, or thermodynamics and, uh, and, uh, uh, fluid dy- dynamics is very interesting subjects to study, especially in the context of flying planes. And I remember you were speaking a podcast once about looking outside the window of a airplane and looking at the, at, at the wheel.

   2. SCSatya Chakravarthy6:44

      Yeah, yeah, I know.

   3. SPSpeaker6:45

      I, I, I totally resonate with that really.

   4. SCSatya Chakravarthy6:47

      I- uh, you know, the thing is I, I try to do that with my wife. "Look, [chuckles] look at the wing. Look, it's turning," and it's so exciting. I don't think she gets it. But when I was a student, I used to do these things with my friends' girlfriends-

   5. SPSpeaker6:58

      Mm

   6. SCSatya Chakravarthy6:59

      ... and they used to get very pretty impressed. And then my friends would come back and ask, "What did you do to them?" [laughing]

   7. SPSpeaker7:06

      So my question is, uh, that, uh, in 11, 12, these are such exciting topics, flying, rocketry, space, and these are the, these are the topics that you're working on, and, uh, your, your research areas of interests are. But when somebody gives JE and starts applying to IITs through the JoSAA process, it feels like you're being pushed towards taking computer science or AI or electrical, and, and students sort of have to deal with this real strong dilemma. Do I do what I'm really interested in, or do I just move to comp- Uh, how, how do you counsel students at that age? What should they be thinking?

   8. SCSatya Chakravarthy7:41

      Well, I think, uh, the, the, uh... In my view, the universal principle is follow your heart. Uh, and, uh, that's even more, uh, pertinent today when compared to any time else, because opportunities galore for pretty much every field today when compared to what it was before. So, um, if you want to actually take aero, there's a lot of aero happening around the world and, and mostly in India as well-

   9. SPSpeaker8:07

      Mm-hmm

   10. SCSatya Chakravarthy8:07

       ... but actually, so, uh, go for it. Of course, you, you see- so the, the, the basic problem is that when you are about 17, uh, there is always this tendency to believe that you don't know as much as what other people have known and what they try to tell you, and, and, and so on. Uh, but that's true. That's true even at 56. I mean, I don't know what- I don't know what's hap- what's gonna happen when I'm, when I get to 60, uh, right? And so, uh, the world is actually opening up in front of us all the time, right? So all of us are as young as, uh, anybody else.

   11. SPSpeaker8:42

       Fair enough, and, and this point that interesting things and exciting things are happening in every field, and, um, of

4. 8:48 – 22:35

   The ePlane Company: What are eVTOLs or flying taxis

   1. SPSpeaker8:48

      course, let's talk about aerospace because you are at the center of a bunch of things. You're leading ePlane company, and you're a co-founder at GalaxEye, Agnikul, um, uh, uh, TuTr Hyperloop. So let's talk about these companies a little bit. Um, what does ePlane Company do, and what is the problem it solves?

   2. SCSatya Chakravarthy9:04

      So The ePlane Company is actually building India's first eVTOL, electric vertical takeoff and landing aircraft. It takes off and lands like a drone, uh, vertically, uh, but, uh, flies forward like a plane. We build the most, um, shortest-winged eVTOLs in the world, um, so that we will be able to land in highly tight spaces, um, and pick you up from where you are as much as possible and, uh, take you to where you want to go, as close to where you want to go.

   3. SPSpeaker9:33

      And so this is like a very Jetsons type of, uh, uh, future.

   4. SCSatya Chakravarthy9:36

      Yeah. I mean, it's a little bit not as sexy as Jetsons, to be honest with you. Um, but... And, and I don't quite believe that everybody will actually be able to handle the Jetsons thing, because it becomes very personal. You have to carry the technology on your-

   5. SPSpeaker9:50

      Yeah

   6. SCSatya Chakravarthy9:50

      ... on, on your body.

   7. SPSpeaker9:52

      Okay.

   8. SCSatya Chakravarthy9:52

      Uh, whereas here, uh, you can actually sit back, relax, and somebody else, or the machine, if we actually go all the way autonomous without a pilot, then the machine will take you. Yeah, so I like technologies that don't require you to do anything, right? Like, for example, uh, one of the reasons why I did not like the, the 1990s America was that you have to drive a car to work, no matter what you are, unless you are the president of the United States, who can actually work from home.

   9. SPSpeaker10:18

      Because the home and the office is like-

   10. SCSatya Chakravarthy10:19

       Exactly.

   11. SPSpeaker10:20

       The same place.

   12. SCSatya Chakravarthy10:21

       Yeah. So, uh, that, that actually looked very stupid to me.

   13. SPSpeaker10:24

       Yeah.

   14. SCSatya Chakravarthy10:24

       And with the advent of, uh, the, uh, shared mobility, uh, like Uber and then so on, and, uh, um, autonomous cars, so like driverless cars, that's actually coming up, that's more like my kind of world, even when I was back then, right? So I was probably about 30 years ahead of my time at that time. Therefore, I came to India. That sounds very funny. [chuckles] But, uh, but that, that's what it is. I mean, uh, Jetsons, in my view, is actually a pretty stupid thing because you will have to do a lot of work controlling it.

   15. SPSpeaker10:54

       That makes sense.

   16. SCSatya Chakravarthy10:55

       Yeah.

   17. SPSpeaker10:55

       Okay, so, so this is more like, uh, like a little bigger than an SUV. I go in-

   18. SCSatya Chakravarthy10:59

       Correct

   19. SPSpeaker10:59

       ... an SUV goes on its own.

   20. SCSatya Chakravarthy11:01

       Absolutely. Absolutely.

   21. SPSpeaker11:01

       Uh, except that it's not riding on the surface-

   22. SCSatya Chakravarthy11:03

       Yeah

   23. SPSpeaker11:03

       ... it's flying. What kind of speeds will it be going in?

   24. SCSatya Chakravarthy11:06

       Yeah, so the- we actually, um, also focus, uh, focus on that, uh, at ePlane. Um, with the shortest of the wings, we also actually try to fly slowest, and the slowest would actually be around 150, 160 kilometer per hour.

   25. SPSpeaker11:20

       Mm.

   26. SCSatya Chakravarthy11:21

       Uh, in fact, we wanna actually keep it at 160, because that's actually a psychological 100 miles per hour in the US.

   27. SPSpeaker11:27

       Oh, okay.

   28. SCSatya Chakravarthy11:28

       Uh, not that US is actually the biggest market that we are after, but we want to also look at that as a market and, uh... So, uh, we wanna actually say that we are not too slow, um, but at the same time, slow enough so that we'll be actually, uh, able to do short trips very effectively. Um-

   29. SPSpeaker11:46

       So this, just, if I can imagine this, um, I stay in HSR in, uh, Bangalore. So if I had a eVTOL on my, uh, sort of the parking lot, I would get in, and it, it, the time it would take for me to come to CFI would be about two and a half, to two and a half hours.

   30. SCSatya Chakravarthy12:01

       CFI in, uh, the in-
5. 22:35 – 25:53

   Convincing investors and others of this crazy idea

   1. SPSpeaker22:35

      I'm just listening to you, and I'm thinking there's so much of tech here, quite hard to understand, quite hard to believe, uh, that it'll, it'll work, and, and I'm guessing it'll be commercial in, like, three or four years, and we'll actually be seeing it. But still, how do you go around convincing people... And you started quite some time back, um, started, like, five years back on this?

   2. SCSatya Chakravarthy22:54

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker22:54

      Um, how do you go around convincing people to, um... That this is real, that this can be built here, that we are going to do it, that you should join us, and that you should, you know, invest in us? These, these are, like, really hard things, right?

   4. SCSatya Chakravarthy23:07

      Correct. Sort of like, you know, peeling the onion one layer at a time. Uh, I think, uh, from investors' point of view, uh, I think I've said this before as well, I've not really seen any Indian investor invest on something that is not being done elsewhere in the world, right? So let's say, for example, I actually came up with a completely new contraption that nobody has come up with in the past. That may be pretty hard for me to get an investment on, but, uh, it might change, right? I'm, I'm always an optimist. Um, so i- for example, if, if somebody has built and shown something to work, and they came up with something new, uh, completely out of the world, uh, it might still... There'll be some credibility to in- invest in it or something, right? So but so far as I've seen, it's not happened. So, um, getting an investment on something that's happening in the other parts of the world, um, has some credibility, uh, um, uh, uh, associated with it. I mean, let's, let's face it, I mean, uh, capital in India is-

   5. SPSpeaker24:07

      But are there other companies doing eVTOLs across the world?

   6. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:09

      Yeah, there are quite a few.

   7. SPSpeaker24:10

      Okay. By quite a few, do you mean, like, two, three, five, 10, 15, 20?

   8. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:14

      Uh, actually, there are hundreds of eVTOL, uh, eVTOL companies at the PowerPoint level, but-

   9. SPSpeaker24:19

      At the PowerPoint level?

   10. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:20

       Yeah.

   11. SPSpeaker24:20

       Oh, they have made their decks.

   12. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:22

       Yeah.

   13. SPSpeaker24:22

       Okay.

   14. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:23

       And-

   15. SPSpeaker24:23

       And how many of them are, uh, have made a-

   16. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:24

       Quite a few, maybe-

   17. SPSpeaker24:25

       ... some scale prototype?

   18. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:26

       Um, maybe, maybe at least about, uh, couple of dozens. About, uh, half a dozen of them are very leading.

   19. SPSpeaker24:32

       ... I'm hearing from this that, uh, earlier I thought that you represent like a really mad, crazy scientist, but the level of craziness is going down because other people also-

   20. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:41

       No, no, I, I'm crazy, but, uh, that's what I'm trying to say. So you won't hear about ideas that have not been done by other people come out of me yet.

   21. SPSpeaker24:50

       Okay.

   22. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:51

       Yeah. So, so I'm, I'm just holding-

   23. SPSpeaker24:53

       Yeah

   24. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:54

       ... holding it for another time because, uh-

   25. SPSpeaker24:56

       When people are ready for it.

   26. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:57

       Correct.

   27. SPSpeaker24:58

       Right.

   28. SCSatya Chakravarthy24:58

       Yeah. So that is the investor part. Employees part is actually where you're obviously looking for, uh, aero people.

   29. SPSpeaker25:05

       Mm.

   30. SCSatya Chakravarthy25:05

       And aero people, uh, uh, have already gone into it, right? So they have been crazy enough to have got into aero. But, uh, the fact is that India actually is a very fertile ground for aero. Um, so we- when I joined as a, as a student, uh, we were primarily thinking about, uh, you know, the HALs of the world and ISROs of the world and, and so on. These are primarily the government R&D, as well as HAL, of course, a PSU. It is, it is industry. But ISRO or DRDO were, were considered to be R&D, but they had a very strong product focus. Uh, but again, commercialization has been, like, not in- not to, like, a large scale, right? They, they, they are not making, like, 100,000 rockets a year kind of thing.
6. 25:53 – 29:40

   Evolution of Aerospace Industry in India

   1. SCSatya Chakravarthy25:53

      but, uh, sometime in the, uh, 2000s, we actually saw a lot of R&D from pretty much the world's best and biggest, uh, uh, aerospace players come to India. Um, so now-

   2. SPSpeaker26:06

      The GE, Boeing.

   3. SCSatya Chakravarthy26:07

      The GE, Boeing, all of those guys, right? So now most of their R&D actually now happens out of Bangalore. Maybe a little bit outside of Bangalore, but mostly in Bangalore. But the next wave actually started in manufacturing. So now we are... Now in India, and this is fairly spread out, it's happening in places like Hyderabad and, uh, Gujarat, and, uh, other places as well. So there is quite a bit of aerospace manufacturing that's happening. In fact, in Hyderabad, I think TATA actually makes a, a full 12-seater Pilatus, uh, plane, uh, without no- anybody knowing about it. It's, it's completely meant for the export market, not for India's consumption.

   4. SPSpeaker26:46

      Very interesting.

   5. SCSatya Chakravarthy26:47

      Lot of, lot of, uh, manufacturing happens. So it's possible for us to get, uh, employees who have actually been in the design and manufacturing of, um, larger cl- uh, aircraft. And, uh, their fascination to work with me is that they, they have been working on only parts of the aircraft, wherever they have been working on. So when, when they work with work at ePlane, uh, they get to work on a full aircraft, uh, no matter how small it is.

   6. SPSpeaker27:14

      Let me try and, uh, see if I've understood this right. What you're saying is that, uh, maybe 30 years back, we were only thinking of HAL and DRDO and ISRO, but in the last 10, 15 years, Indian engineers have been working at all these global companies-

   7. SCSatya Chakravarthy27:29

      Yeah

   8. SPSpeaker27:29

      ... which are actually based in India.

   9. SCSatya Chakravarthy27:31

      Correct.

   10. SPSpeaker27:31

       Including in the manufacturing side.

   11. SCSatya Chakravarthy27:33

       Absolutely.

   12. SPSpeaker27:33

       Uh, and therefore, there's a lot of talent, talent, which is maybe itching to come out and do more, uh, if given the option.

   13. SCSatya Chakravarthy27:39

       There, there are essentially four phases, right? Uh, pre-2000, it was, uh, the, um, government, government, um, companies and, uh, R&D, which is thriving even today, right? So it's not to say that that's, that's-

   14. SPSpeaker27:54

       Yeah, HAL and ISRO.

   15. SCSatya Chakravarthy27:55

       They, they are doing, like, great-

   16. SPSpeaker27:56

       Great work

   17. SCSatya Chakravarthy27:56

       ... right?

   18. SPSpeaker27:56

       Yeah.

   19. SCSatya Chakravarthy27:57

       So, I- I mean, there are people who actually die to be part of ISRO and can't get in and, and so on, right? So ISRO is, like, really kicking ass, and, and, and DRDO, that they are doing good. I think just about last week, they launched their hypersonic missile and tested successfully. So all of that stuff is going great guns. The next thing that happened is, um, let's say MNC private R&D.

   20. SPSpeaker28:19

       Mm.

   21. SCSatya Chakravarthy28:20

       Right? And that spawned a lot of other contract R&D and all of that stuff around, uh, in the country as well. Uh, the third is manufacturing. Uh, fourth is... And this is, like, large manufacturing, making, like, large planes, large parts of engines, and all of that stuff. And fourth is start- the startups. So the, the 2020s is the, uh, time for aerospace startups.

   22. SPSpeaker28:43

       It's very exciting. I'm thinking of the-

   23. SCSatya Chakravarthy28:45

       There's, like, about four different opportunities for anybody who wants to do aerospace. [chuckles]

   24. SPSpeaker28:49

       We will talk about all four. Uh, but I'm just thinking of, uh, the semiconductor business, and in the semiconductor business, of course, there hasn't been a, a long history of government support, but, uh-

   25. SCSatya Chakravarthy28:59

       It's happening now.

   26. SPSpeaker29:00

       It's happening now, and, uh, also there's a lot of talent in, say, Intel, AMD, or other companies where at a point, like, if you just ask casually, there's of course no data, but if you ask casually, then, like, 20% of employees in semiconductors across the world are actually Indian.

   27. SCSatya Chakravarthy29:15

       Absolutely.

   28. SPSpeaker29:16

       Yeah, and a lot of it is in India.

   29. SCSatya Chakravarthy29:17

       In fact, even long before the hardware semiconductor stuff started happening, there was a lot of, uh, software on VLSI testing, and all that stuff, uh, actually was happening in India.

   30. SPSpeaker29:28

       Mm.
7. 29:40 – 35:31

   IIT Madras: Fostering a Culture of Building

   1. SPSpeaker29:40

      I want to ask you, how do we go from... And, and you joined, uh, you were a student here, and so, you know, you've seen the attitude evolve. And, and you're a professor. I think you joined in ni- '98.

   2. SCSatya Chakravarthy29:49

      '97, '98, yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker29:51

      Uh, and, uh, now it's 2024, almost like a 30, 40-year window. How has the attitude changed so much that we believe that we can just do it now?

   4. SCSatya Chakravarthy29:59

      Yeah. So I he- I feel that this is, uh, a bit of an IIT Madras thing, uh, when compared to other institutions, but that's a great- it's a great thing. What I find is, uh, the IIT Madras, um, students want to be doing something or the other. They don't want to be lazy. Whereas back then, uh, we finish our, uh, day's classes and stuff, and then come back, um, just, uh, you know, start, uh, chatting in the hostel corridor and, and then-

   5. SPSpeaker30:27

      We, we had this thing called Wing Cot.

   6. SCSatya Chakravarthy30:29

      Wing Cot.

   7. SPSpeaker30:29

      We have a Wing Cot.

   8. SCSatya Chakravarthy30:30

      Absolutely, right. So the Wing Cot-

   9. SPSpeaker30:31

      Mm.

   10. SCSatya Chakravarthy30:32

       Right? Uh, so the Wing Cot was actually where we just sit and yak and all that stuff. Then-... there was, like, one computer that came to one room in the hostel, which people can share, and-

   11. SPSpeaker30:42

       Yeah

   12. SCSatya Chakravarthy30:43

       ... the people started playing computer games.

   13. SPSpeaker30:45

       Yeah.

   14. SCSatya Chakravarthy30:45

       And, uh, we also started having computer labs.

   15. SPSpeaker30:48

       What were the games you were playing?

   16. SCSatya Chakravarthy30:49

       Uh, I think, uh, I mean, I think they're still there, no? What do you-

   17. SPSpeaker30:54

       Wave, uh, Doom?

   18. SCSatya Chakravarthy30:55

       No.

   19. SPSpeaker30:57

       Uh, Civilization?

   20. SCSatya Chakravarthy30:58

       No. No, no, no, no.

   21. SPSpeaker30:59

       I'm thinking of all games that I'm thinking, "No, but that came in '94. That came in-" [chuckles]

   22. SCSatya Chakravarthy31:01

       No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Yeah, it's, it's even before that. I'm talking about, like, '87, '88 time period.

   23. SPSpeaker31:05

       Oh, God, I had no idea what... So maybe some Atari games.

   24. SCSatya Chakravarthy31:08

       Yeah, yeah, yeah. Very, very-

   25. SPSpeaker31:10

       Pong

   26. SCSatya Chakravarthy31:10

       ... very, very primitive.

   27. SPSpeaker31:11

       Post Pong.

   28. SCSatya Chakravarthy31:12

       Yeah. I w- I would, I wouldn't play those games, but I've seen, like, a lot of people get those, get there. So, uh, the thing is, computers were, like, very w- not, not so commonplace for, for us to access. And internet was not there, and, and so that's something that I can't even, even imagine-

   29. SPSpeaker31:27

       Yeah

   30. SCSatya Chakravarthy31:27

       ... today. Right. Uh, I think internet has definitely revolutionized, uh, everywhere.
8. 35:31 – 37:04

   India's Growing Startup & VC Ecosystem

   1. SPSpeaker35:31

      it just seems like you're missing a few steps here. So the internet came in, and okay, we believe sort of illusion shatters, but still going from there to saying that we can do all this ourselves, are there, are there more enablers?

   2. SCSatya Chakravarthy35:43

      Of course. I mean, uh, I could, I could think of doing a small rocket and it still costs me something. But I could, I could still- I could think of making my ePlane, and it still costs me something. So you need to actually look for where will you get, uh, investments and so on. So the startup ecosystem is, I mean, supposedly the third largest in the world, in India. Um, so there is a, uh, there is a VC ecosystem that's growing, and increasingly they are getting a bit more aware about, uh, deep tech startups, right, and so on. And I'm just getting the sense, but we probably have to quantify this, but the proportion of deep tech startups in India probably might be higher than in the US, is my, my guess. Uh, simply because there are a large number of non-deep tech startups that are, that are, that, that are out there in the US that bring down the deep tech-

   3. SPSpeaker36:30

      Yeah

   4. SCSatya Chakravarthy36:31

      ... proportion p. Uh, but in India, I think for some reason, maybe cultural or whatever it is, there are lots of, uh, out of college students and, uh, you-... uh, a little bit f- like, a few years into workforce kind of people who want to start up, they have a better proclivity for deep tech engagement.

   5. SPSpeaker36:51

      So from a builder's perspective, from a building attitude perspective, um, the latent talent was al- always there.

   6. SCSatya Chakravarthy36:58

      Yeah, we have the ingredients.

   7. SPSpeaker36:59

      Yeah.

   8. SCSatya Chakravarthy36:59

      Yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker37:00

      And now we have the money also.

   10. SCSatya Chakravarthy37:02

       Yeah.

   11. SPSpeaker37:02

       So that's amazing.

9. 37:04 – 38:50

   The ePlane Company: Fundraising Success & Future Vision

   1. SPSpeaker37:04

      And let's just go into a little bit of detail on all your startups that you're associated with. So ePlane Company is making flying taxis. I think we spent some time talking about it. You've also raised a lot of money, uh, and just raised Series B. Congratulations, uh-

   2. SCSatya Chakravarthy37:15

      Thanks.

   3. SPSpeaker37:16

      So the total is now 20 million, is it?

   4. SCSatya Chakravarthy37:18

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker37:19

      Uh, and, um, uh, also you have a great set of investors. Um, I saw that Naval Ravikant is on your list, Speciale Invest and... Amazing. So what is the current status of ePlane Company, and, uh, what are your next one or two-year goals?

   6. SCSatya Chakravarthy37:34

      When we started, uh, you know, uh, we, we bootstrapped and started building drones. Um, and, and the drones of the winged variety, uh, which is the eVTOLs, made the smallest of those, and, um, then went on to making larger of those eVTOLs, a subscale prototype. So we got into, um, the path of trying to commercialize those by putting them through certification, and so on. But now we are- with this fundraise, we are now at the verge of going out and building the, the, the passenger aircraft, which means that, uh, our major focus is to get the first prototype of the passenger aircraft, uh, as soon as possible, which would be the next six months.

   7. SPSpeaker38:17

      Oh, wow! Can I book a flight?

   8. SCSatya Chakravarthy38:21

      Okay. Oh, no, uh-

   9. SPSpeaker38:22

      Just asking.

   10. SCSatya Chakravarthy38:22

       -you can't. Uh, so, uh-

   11. SPSpeaker38:24

       Can B reserve a seat?

   12. SCSatya Chakravarthy38:26

       No, no, no. All these things will actually happen in the commercial-

   13. SPSpeaker38:29

       Side

   14. SCSatya Chakravarthy38:29

       ... thing, right? So the first prototype is actually the start of the game. Um, we have to actually do a lot of testing and go through a certification process. That'll take about a year again, further, and so on. So we are, we are looking at first fly, first commercial flights happening sometime in 2026-

   15. SPSpeaker38:46

       Right

   16. SCSatya Chakravarthy38:46

       ... the later part of, say, 2026. [chuckles]

10. 38:50 – 41:09

    Navigating Aviation Regulations & Compliance

    1. SPSpeaker38:50

       Is the regulatory part of it a big part of what you're doing?

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy38:53

       It is, huge. In fact, uh, in, uh, aerospace, particularly in aviation, right? Aero- aerospace has multiple parts, right? So if you're looking at space tech, there is something like space-grade materials and all of those things. Um, I think stringent regulations exist for manned aircraft, man-manned spacecraft, right? But they're not so commonplace. They are developed in NASA. They are developed in... There are only a few countries which have actually put humans in space. India is also trying, uh, trying their best to do it as soon as possible, the next, next year or so. Um, so they evolve those standards. But when you now talk about aviation, which is, uh... Then there is military, right? I'm not even getting there. There are mil-grade standards and all of that stuff. When you talk about civilian aviation, um, it's all about regulations, right? Every nut and bolt has to actually go through regulations. Uh, I, I change a screw in a seat, [chuckles] I have to go through the regulations.

    3. SPSpeaker39:54

       Yeah.

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy39:54

       It's, it's highly regulated, and it, and it's, and it's for good. I mean, we are actually putting humans... So if you look at, um, a- aviation, it has far higher safety standards than automobiles, right? And, uh, by, from an aviation perspective, uh, I feel like why is it okay for people to actually sit in a car, drive, and, uh, be ready to kill themselves on the road, right? When they will actually quibble so much about going and sitting up in a plane, which is proven, like, huge amount of safety record. Which, a- and then over and over again, right? So, uh, touch wood, uh, it is, it is a fact that, uh, we have, like, far, far, far fewer, uh, air accidents when compared to road accidents.

    5. SPSpeaker40:38

       It could be because there are such strict regulations.

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy40:40

       Correct. So the regulations are for something, right? It's, it, it means something. Yes, and we have to respect it.

    7. SPSpeaker40:47

       Yeah, and, uh, I guess, um, when you look at the EV industry, and, uh, there are a lot of players who sort of cut corners left, right, and center, and we have seen sufficiently high number of, uh, EV-rela- I mean, uh, EV car and EV, uh, bike-related accidents in the recent past. So maybe if there were stricter regulations there, then those would be fewer.

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy41:08

       Correct.

11. 41:09 – 43:00

    Agnikul Cosmos: 3D Printed Rocket Engines

    1. SPSpeaker41:09

       Uh, so we spoke about The ePlane Company. The other companies that you mentioned were Agnikul. Uh, can you tell us a little bit about Agnikul?

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy41:16

       So Agnikul, um, started sometime in, um, uh, second half of 2020- 2017. Um, started with ideation, then in incubation, and incorporation, and all that stuff. And, uh, 2018 is when we actually gave shape to the ideas, um, completely, uh, where we decided that we will, uh, do a 3D printed engine and try to do it as integrated as possible. So you have only two, two inlets: uh, a LOX inlet and a fuel inlet. Uh, and everything else actually happens inside, cooling the walls at injection, and then atomization, burning, then expansion through the nozzle, all of that stuff. So you, you have two inlets and one outlet. The one outlet is a nozzle where you get the hot gases, um, come out.

    3. SPSpeaker42:00

       The stuff that we see, which pushes the rocket up.

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy42:02

       Right. So we, um, mastered the art of making that kind of a rocket, uh, with 3D printers. Um, and, uh, we procured a 3D printer at some point, and then started doing this, uh, very routinely. Um, and, uh, then we also actually had to test these rocket engines on ground, so we established test facilities in the new campus at Thaiyur. Um, and, uh, we've gone all the way to mimicking the launch pad that we have developed at Sriharikota, uh, the one- only one of its kind, uh, in India, uh, in fact, in the world as well.

    5. SPSpeaker42:38

       I just want to check. So Agnikul's 3D-printed rocket launched this year... I mean, the successful launch was this year, right?

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy42:44

       Yeah.

    7. SPSpeaker42:44

       So 2017 to 2024, it's a lot, it's, like, seven years.

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy42:47

       Correct.

    9. SPSpeaker42:48

       ... It's a lot of patient work for both the company and the, the employees and the investors I was seeing.

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy42:53

        Correct.

    11. SPSpeaker42:53

        And is it a, is it a thing that you sometimes worry about, that people won't be patient enough for Deep Tech to sort of-

12. 43:00 – 44:08

    The Patience Paradox

    1. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:00

       True. I mean, and, uh, so, uh, there, there are people who are- there, there are two kinds of people in the world, right? Uh, there are, there are people who are patient, there are people who are impatient. [chuckles] Right. So we work as them. When you say there are two kinds of people in the world, that, that sentence can go anywhere. [chuckles]

    2. SPSpeaker43:17

       I know, exactly. [chuckles]

    3. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:19

       Right. So, uh, there are fewer patient people in the world. Uh, so I mean, this, this whole idea of startups is actually very weird, right? You need to be impatient to break the barrier-

    4. SPSpeaker43:30

       Mm.

    5. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:31

       -right? And then say, "I want to actually do something different."

    6. SPSpeaker43:34

       Yeah.

    7. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:34

       Right? Uh, because y- y- you don't like to be patient to put up with the existing-

    8. SPSpeaker43:41

       Status quo

    9. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:41

       ... level of tech and sta- status quo-

    10. SPSpeaker43:42

        Yeah

    11. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:42

        ... and all that stuff. But once you set yourself up to saying, "Okay, I'm actually going to do this impatient thing"-

    12. SPSpeaker43:48

        Yeah

    13. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:49

        ... you've got to be patient to do it. Mm. [chuckles]

    14. SPSpeaker43:52

        It's very interesting. You have to be p- impatient externally. [chuckles] Like, "Go, move!"

    15. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:56

        Yeah.

    16. SPSpeaker43:56

        "Give me the regulation. Let this move."

    17. SCSatya Chakravarthy43:58

        Correct.

    18. SPSpeaker43:58

        But you have to be very patient internally.

    19. SCSatya Chakravarthy44:00

        Correct.

    20. SPSpeaker44:01

        Mm. Sounds cool.

    21. SCSatya Chakravarthy44:03

        There are, there are a few people like that.

    22. SPSpeaker44:05

        Agnikul makes 3D-printed rockets. Um,

13. 44:08 – 47:40

    GalaxEye Space: World's First Satellite with SAR-EO Fusion

    1. SPSpeaker44:08

       uh, GalaxEye is also a company that you're involved in. Uh, what do they do?

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy44:11

       So again, uh, I want to dial back to, you know, the internet leveling things and stuff, right? And if you notice what I have been saying about ePlane and Agnikul now, um, and, uh, uh, what I would be saying about GalaxEye and maybe TuTr Hyperloop next and all of, all of that, uh, our benchmark is world standards, global standards, right? So we want to do something that's the best in the world, in, in, in, in some way or the other, mainly because whatever is the best in the world that we want to do has to actually be for a very tight business case that can never be, uh, excelled by anybody else in the world. And world is a market for us. It's not like an India market or anything like that. So, um, the tech has to be global, global best, so that we will actually be able to, uh, target global markets and be a global company.

    3. SPSpeaker45:03

       Yeah.

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy45:04

       Right? Um, and it- and the tech is, you know, crafted for the best business case. That's a, that's a, that's a paradigm. So, uh, if you look at GalaxEye, so I think, uh, prediction, we still hold fort on. We are the world's only, uh, satellite company that's mixing what's called a synthetic aperture radar, that can cut through cloud cover or image during nighttime when there is no solar illumination, as well as a, a multispectral or hyperspectral camera that will image in the visible spectrum that our eyes can see, and juxtapose them, uh, with deep learning algorithms to figure out if I don't have the illumination or if I'm seeing through cloud cover and there is an obscuration of the visible spectrum camera, um, how can I actually render the, uh, SAR images as if they are visible?

    5. SPSpeaker46:00

       Right. So, um, I know a little bit about this, so let me see if I'm getting this right, um, and from what you said. Uh, when satellites have been taking images of the Earth forever, but most of the time there's a lot of cloud cover.

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:11

       Correct.

    7. SPSpeaker46:12

       Uh, GalaxEye's-

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:13

       No, no, most of the time, I should- half of the time there is night.

    9. SPSpeaker46:16

       Half of the time there's night. [chuckles] So there are two types, there's day and...

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:22

        Uh, so that's why you start, so 50% is gone.

    11. SPSpeaker46:26

        Yeah.

    12. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:26

        Right. The remaining 50%, most of the time there is cloud cover. [chuckles]

    13. SPSpeaker46:29

        Right. So the actual, uh... And, and, and you can't really stop a satellite in midair-

    14. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:35

        Yeah

    15. SPSpeaker46:35

        ... so it moves. So if it's moved above a point where it's night or-

    16. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:39

        Yeah

    17. SPSpeaker46:39

        ... there's cloud cover, you-

    18. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:40

        It will

    19. SPSpeaker46:40

        ... take an image.

    20. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:41

        Correct.

    21. SPSpeaker46:41

        So the SAR technology makes it- the technology that GalaxEye makes, makes us SAR images, real images?

    22. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:47

        I, I have a very s- very simple sentence, uh-

    23. SPSpeaker46:49

        Yeah

    24. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:50

        ... to capture the whole thing, right? With GalaxEye, we have run out of excuses for not imaging the world 24 by 7.

    25. SPSpeaker46:56

        Right.

    26. SCSatya Chakravarthy46:57

        That's what it is. Otherwise, satellites were actually doing the job only 10 to 20% of the time.

    27. SPSpeaker47:04

        That's very interesting.

    28. SCSatya Chakravarthy47:05

        Mm.

    29. SPSpeaker47:05

        Yeah. And, and so this, the imaging that they're doing, uh, so that, that obviously makes the satellite, uh, much more efficient.

    30. SCSatya Chakravarthy47:12

        Correct.
14. 47:40 – 53:12

    Elon Musk, TuTr Hyperloop and its feasibility

    1. SPSpeaker47:40

       talk about TuTr Hyperloop, so.

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy47:41

       So TuTr Hyperloop actually, um, started with something like where, where we are around, right? Avishkar Hyperloop is the student team that, uh, I help, uh, being associated with some... from 2018 when Suyash, uh, uh, [chuckles] you know, who is, who is now the GalaxEye co-founder-

    3. SPSpeaker47:57

       Yeah

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy47:57

       ... actually founded, uh, he and one more of his friends, um, Ankit. Um, they actually found, um, this thing, co-founded, uh, Avishkar Hyperloop.

    5. SPSpeaker48:08

       Avishkar Hyperloop as a student team-

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy48:09

       Student team

    7. SPSpeaker48:09

       ... in CFI?

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy48:10

       CFI, correct. I mean, this building did not exist at the time, but, uh, CFI existed. And, um, I was the, uh, faculty advisor at the time, and I continue to do so. Um, and, uh, my thinking was, um, first of all, does it make sense, or is it just a fad? Is it just for the sake of students going to the US for a competition?

    9. SPSpeaker48:32

       This is because, uh, Elon Musk had announced a Hyperloop competition.

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy48:35

        Competition, correct.

    11. SPSpeaker48:35

        And Elon Musk is like the patron saint of, uh, all ambitious students. [chuckles]

    12. SCSatya Chakravarthy48:40

        Right. Right.

    13. SPSpeaker48:41

        Yeah.

    14. SCSatya Chakravarthy48:41

        Ex- except that he's actually smart enough to not actually jump into Hyperloop himself.

    15. SPSpeaker48:45

        Mm.

    16. SCSatya Chakravarthy48:45

        Because, um, in my view, uh, in my view, a lot of things that actually happen in the US are, like, super expensive.

    17. SPSpeaker48:51

        ... Okay. Um, and, uh, maybe, uh, Hyperloop is daunting even for him, or Elon Musk to do it in the US. If he were actually smarter than what he is, he should actually be doing this in India.

    18. SCSatya Chakravarthy49:02

        Mm.

    19. SPSpeaker49:04

        Right? Um, but it-

    20. SCSatya Chakravarthy49:06

        It-

    21. SPSpeaker49:06

        ... good that he's not, because we, we can, we can get to do it instead.

    22. SCSatya Chakravarthy49:09

        In the US, in [chuckles] I think he's involved in too many things. [chuckles]

    23. SPSpeaker49:13

        Yeah, exactly. That's another thing. [chuckles] Um, yeah, in the US, I think, um, maybe people in India, uh, are aware of it, uh, uh, a little bit. But in the US, a lot of innovation happens because there were some really crazy prizes, uh, that teams gunned for, like the DARPA Prize or the-

    24. SCSatya Chakravarthy49:32

        Right.

    25. SPSpeaker49:33

        Uh, and, and so I think that was his intent, right? So if the Hyperloop prize-

    26. SCSatya Chakravarthy49:36

        Well, you know, see, we, we have gone k- we have kind of gone past that point. Like, for example, uh, there was a DARPA prize that was announced, um, sometime in the 2019 timeframe, if I remember-

    27. SPSpeaker49:48

        Mm

    28. SCSatya Chakravarthy49:49

        ... um, which was actually exactly the Agnikul, uh, problem statement, minus the affordability. Okay, so Agnikul's problem statement is launch anywhere, anytime, affordably, right? So DARPA actually came up with a competition saying, "Is it possible for you to develop a launch vehicle which can launch anywhere, anytime?" Right, I mean, it, it, it's as if i-i-it sounds as if like Americans don't bother about affordability at all, and that's kind of, you know, why? Why wouldn't you, [chuckles] right? Uh, whereas we do, and that's actually a key thing. A, a very different thing about Indians is that we actually worry about affordability, and that's where Hyperloop comes in, right? So when we are developing technology... So my question was, "Am I doing this just with the students for, like, a fad? Is, is my time worth, you know, spending on this, uh, just with the students, or am I just having fun?" So I take, I, I take even fun seriously, unfortunately. So I started asking questions like, "Does it make sense for, like, a place in India? What does it take today to move people from one place to the other, right? And what's the kind of ticket prices will people be willing to give, and can we afford it?" And so on. Because this is one of the questions that when you now say Hyperloop, it's like, "Oh, it's not an Indian thing. It's..." Right? "It's too pricey," or whatever it is. So the answer is, we actually did a patient workings of all the costs involved and all that stuff. So the hallmark of Hyperloop is it actually pushes this paradigm to the extreme, where there is a lot of upfront cost, right? But you actually slash down the operating costs like crazy. And to the extent that you can afford to have people go from Chennai to Bangalore in about 15 to 25 minutes, let us say, for about 1,500 to put 2,000, 2,500 kind of rupees ticket prices, which will shatter aircraft, you know, flight, uh, you know, mobility. But this is only, only on certain routes, right? So this- so the, the paradigm here is there were landline phones, which is kind of like current-day railways. Um, then there is, uh, mobile phones, that is, that is, uh, uh, equivalent to flying. Or like, for example, eVTOLs flying from anywhere to anywhere, uh, with, like, very small landing strip that's required, and so on. Uh, so similar to the cell phone towers that are there, uh, here and there, and so on. Uh, Hyperloop is actually the equivalent of, uh, fiber optic cable.

    29. SPSpeaker52:21

        Mm.

    30. SCSatya Chakravarthy52:21

        And you won't actually send, like, a lot of data and, and all that stuff along one particular line.
15. 53:12 – 58:56

    Chennai to Bangalore in 15 Minutes?

    1. SPSpeaker53:12

       think, uh, uh, Chennai to Bangalore is 300 kilometers.

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy53:16

       350.

    3. SPSpeaker53:17

       350 kilometers, and you're saying 15 minutes. That's really fast.

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy53:20

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker53:20

       Oh, uh-

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy53:21

       So, uh, yeah, so the, the, the peak speeds that we should be targeting, um, ultimately is 1,200 kilometers per hour. But we found, found that we have to cross, like, 600 kilometers per hour for it to make sense to compete with flights.

    7. SPSpeaker53:35

       But what happens to the human body? Like, isn't it too fast?

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy53:38

       Oh, no, no, no. Uh, we do these things in, like, very high-rise building lifts all the time.

    9. SPSpeaker53:43

       Okay.

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy53:43

        Like, let's say 100-story, uh, sky- skyscraper lift takes you three minutes to, you know, um, get there, and, uh, that's actually beating gravity.

    11. SPSpeaker53:54

        Mm.

    12. SCSatya Chakravarthy53:54

        Right? And then you don't really feel it because you have, y-you have, like, spring-loaded systems that will, uh, make, make that, uh, happen for you. So the whole-

    13. SPSpeaker54:03

        Isolation is gentler.

    14. SCSatya Chakravarthy54:04

        Yeah. Yeah, so we do actually have, like, uh, dampers that will, will make sure that the human body does not sense the acceleration.

    15. SPSpeaker54:13

        And the core technology here is that the sense to Hy- how I've understood, is that Hyperloop is basically a levitated, uh-

    16. SCSatya Chakravarthy54:20

        It's, it's, it's, it's a, it's a maglev and vacuum.

    17. SPSpeaker54:23

        Maglev and vacuum. Okay. Um, you know, I wanna tell you, I wanna share with you that, um, um, before that, so where is the startup at right now? Like-

    18. SCSatya Chakravarthy54:31

        Yeah, that's a good question. So we have the startup that drives the tech, um, but still it is sort of bootstrapped. Uh, we have not really raised any equity funding, but we are getting quite a bit of support from the railways.

    19. SPSpeaker54:44

        Mm.

    20. SCSatya Chakravarthy54:45

        Right? And, uh-

    21. SPSpeaker54:46

        I'm reminded of, uh, how you started by saying that it would have been easier to raise funding... It, it is easier to raise funding if somebody else across the world has done it. So I have to ask, is somebody else across the world doing this?

    22. SCSatya Chakravarthy54:56

        Oh, yes, yes. Uh, they've, they've done it, and they have shut it down.... and all that stuff. Yes, of course. Yeah. So it's actually very big in Europe. Mm. Um, at least about, uh, four, three, four companies are very active doing this in Europe. America, it died. Uh, maybe there is one company that's in Canada as well. So there is, there is, uh, some pedigree to it. Um, so anyway, uh-

    23. SPSpeaker55:19

        Is, is it true that the International Hyperloop Convention is happening here?

    24. SCSatya Chakravarthy55:22

        Competition.

    25. SPSpeaker55:23

        Competition is happening here at IIT Madras, huh?

    26. SCSatya Chakravarthy55:25

        Yeah. So, so the thing is, like, we want to eventually push the envelope. We're doing that in two ways. One, we're basically saying we actually have a 400 and... a 400-plus meter long Hyperloop tube that we have set up in Thaiyur.

    27. SPSpeaker55:39

        This is the IIT Madras campus at-

    28. SCSatya Chakravarthy55:40

        IIT Madras discovery campus.

    29. SPSpeaker55:41

        A 400-meter vacuum tube.

    30. SCSatya Chakravarthy55:42

        Vacuum tube. And, uh, that's actually the best in the world that's available for any competition.
16. 58:56 – 1:05:10

    Setting up the NCCRD at IIT Madras

    1. SPSpeaker58:56

       I want to go back a little bit in time, and we spoke about your student days, and then you went to Georgia Tech. When you came back to IIT Madras, um, you were teaching in aero department, right?

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy59:06

       Right.

    3. SPSpeaker59:06

       And, uh, at some point, you started the National Combustion, uh, Center for... National Centre for Combustion Research at IITM.

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy59:12

       Developed, correct.

    5. SPSpeaker59:13

       What does the NCCRD do? Uh, what are your research areas in this, in the combustion field? Can you give us a little bit of insight?

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy59:20

       So when I came back from Georgia Tech, within a few couple of years, um, I and my colleague actually started doing quite a bit of laser diagnostics, which was sort of novel, uh, in the country. And, uh, there was, um, quite a bit of interest in the, uh, the Indian strategic s- sector, which is like space and defense, for doing some cutting-edge stuff. And pretty soon, we also found that, uh, GE Aviation was clued into it, and they wanted to work with us, and so on. So all of this was actually nucleating, um, me to start putting together a set of people much larger than just the space and defense, uh, sector and aviation sector, um, bringing in automobiles and thermal power, and also fire research, fire suppression, all of these things. Wherever there is anything that burns, um, whether you want to let it burn in a controlled manner or put it out when it is not desired, everything put together. Uh, in fact, I think during COVID, somebody actually came and said: "Is it possible for you to actually figure out how to burn bodies?" Which it's kind of morbid, but, you know, a- anything that burns is actually under our purview. So I just tried to enlarge the scope to bring about some 30 faculty members together, which is the largest of its, largest of its kind in terms of grouping. Um, then we had the funding opportunity to build a five-story building, uh, with a couple of other smaller buildings for safety purposes, so set up separately. Um, that's actually the largest of its kind in the world, uh, in the make, actually, five stories of combustion.

    7. SPSpeaker1:00:58

       And, oh, five stories. So these are all separate facilities to-

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:01:02

       ... uh, we have some very cool, uh, facilities, like in the microgravity drop tower, we have a supersonic combustion rig. Uh, we had like a hundred, uh, kilowatt, uh, gasifier, coal gasifier. Um, so lots of things at scale. Uh, and, uh, we used to do quite a bit of work for GE Aviation in, uh, atomizing at pressure and temperature, elevated pressures and temperatures that are similar to what we see in gas turbines. So lots of things we do are at industry scale. We have, like, about four automobile test beds, which are industry, uh, standard test beds.

    9. SPSpeaker1:01:36

       So these are, uh, centers where, uh, professors or students of IIT Madras can do research, or industry can come and-

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:01:42

        Correct

    11. SPSpeaker1:01:43

        ... use the facility, or there may be a collaboration?

    12. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:01:44

        Com- combination of both. That is, industry, uh, in a industry-supported problem, where a PhD student will advance certain skills.

    13. SPSpeaker1:01:52

        Professor, as a faculty, uh, when you set up a center, what, what constitutes success for the center? Like, how would you measure how this is going?

    14. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:02:01

        So it's, it's- the scale of the center is one thing, right? Where we are talking about, uh, an initial investment of about 46 crores, which back then was, like, about 11 million US dollars. Uh, I think at that time it was actually the largest of its kind in IITM. Um, so the, then, the director at that time, uh, wanted to actually support it with building a building for us, and so on.

    15. SPSpeaker1:02:25

        This is Professor Masper?

    16. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:02:26

        Correct. And, uh, he had just joined, I mean, as, uh, taken over as the director at the time. So, uh, I think the scale is magnificent. So until some time when other things, uh, started happening, um, NCCRD was kind of like a tour stop for any, uh, any celeb, dignitary, or celebrity passing by Chennai, uh, and so on, which is good. I mean, uh, so, um, that's one. The second is, uh, sustaining-

    17. SPSpeaker1:02:53

        I feel... Uh, you know, on that topic, I feel like a lot of people who pass by IIT and want to look in, they want sort of a reassurance that great things are happening here. They may not understand what is the implication of it or...

    18. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:03:04

        I, I, I remember, like, for example, uh, soon after NCCRD was established, the building was built and all the, all that stuff, uh, we had, like, a lot more, a lot, lot of footfall. Like, there was couple of, uh, times I remember, like, for example, the f- the founder of, uh, Analog Devices, he had, he had only two things to do at IIT Madras. One was NCCRD, the other one was the research park. And, uh, I think the president of, uh, NUS was passing by Chennai, and he had, like, an hour to spend, and, uh, they would bring him to NCCRD and, and to the research park, and so on.

    19. SPSpeaker1:03:37

        Nice.

    20. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:03:37

        So that kind of thing. So that is one. The second thing is to sustain it, right? Can you actually sustain the growth, and so on? So from 46 crores, uh, we have actually accumulated about some 50-plus projects for the industry-

    21. SPSpeaker1:03:51

        Right

    22. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:03:51

        ... where we have done, uh, projects worth maybe about 250 crores plus for now, right? So that's, that's actually the key thing. Can you sustain the center?

    23. SPSpeaker1:04:02

        Through industrial work-

    24. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:04:04

        Correct

    25. SPSpeaker1:04:04

        ... through-

    26. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:04:04

        In- industry collaboration is actually the only way by which you can sustain a center.

    27. SPSpeaker1:04:10

        Are there papers and patents also?

    28. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:04:12

        Huge, huge number of, uh, like, uh... I personally actually, uh, clocked 100-plus papers. Uh, no, and, and that grew exponentially. So when, when I joined as an assistant professor, I had, like, only one. When I was an associate professor, I had 13. When I became a professor, I had 30. Uh, so you can clearly see the steps, right? Within about five, 10 years. But significant- after that, they became, like, hundreds, uh, and, and so on. That's personal, and I collaborated with a lot of my other colleagues in automobile and power, and all that stuff, which is outside my area, where I would support them on things like laser diagnostics and all, all that stuff. And so we have co-authored papers. I learned a lot from all of those things. My colleagues, we had, like, about some 75 PhD students at, uh, one time.

    29. SPSpeaker1:04:56

        Oh!

    30. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:04:56

        Yeah, yeah, right.
17. 1:05:10 – 1:12:10

    Drop Tower at IIT Madras

    1. SPSpeaker1:05:10

       fascinating. What do you drop? Like [laughs] ... does the tower itself drop?

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:05:14

       No, no, no. So the, the tower is kind of like a lift shaft.

    3. SPSpeaker1:05:16

       Okay.

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:05:17

       Um, it's a little bit bigger. And, uh, we have to actually make sure that, uh, we drop a, um, capsule that doesn't hit the walls, so it has to be dropped, like, perfectly, right in the middle. And, um, uh, it's, it's a little bit, um, interesting. So we actually have two capsules, one inside the other. The outside capsule is sort of aerodynamically shaped and a bit long. And, uh, the length of the capsule is determined by, uh, how much time it takes for, uh, the inner capsule to fall within the outer capsule by the time the outer capsule, you know, drops from the top to bottom, okay? So we are about a 38-meter-tall drop tower, the, the fifth largest in the world. And, uh, we wanted to actually be slightly bigger than the, the smaller of NASA Glenn's two tower, towers, which is actually more often used. Um, so that's actually- that gives about a 2.3 seconds of microgravity time, and, uh, we want to aim at 2.5 seconds to make, make it the fifth largest. So NASA Glenn's second tower is the sixth largest, the more often used tower, and so on. So we... But the microgravity, um, community is a very small community in the world. They watch out. In fact, at that time when we were setting it up, the German microgravity, uh, tower, the people actually called us and said, "Hey, we, we built one, and it's actually super expensive. Now you're building one. Can you actually do something very advanced, and so on?" We didn't have that kind of funding, because microgravity was only one of the things that we were doing, among a lot of things. They wanted to do something like what we do in Hyperloop, with, like, magnetic, uh, what do you call it? Site limitation and all that stuff that will produce, like, lunar gravity, uh, Martian gravity, and all that stuff.... Yeah, so, uh, we, I mean, we still can do it. We have the infra, the, the, the-

    5. SPSpeaker1:07:08

       So who, who would use a drop tower? Like, which kind of research team?

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:07:12

       Well, there are ... Yeah, so when I, when we did the drop tower, my problem was, how am I going to justify this for a combustion center? Because, um, there's only- that's only one corner of combustion, right? Only one aspect of combustion. So, um, we found that we, we should actually be targeting, um, all, all things microgravity, right? And then there are essentially four kinds of research. Now, there is a fifth one that is also added up in the recent past. One is combustion. Um, how do I know? Because flames are always like, like, for example, a candle flame. So I have this, uh, typical, uh, thing in my, uh, classroom saying that if you actually go on a romantic dinner with your girlfriend, candlelight dinner, uh, forget about the girlfriend, look at the candles, you know, it's important, and you're gonna go- you can learn a lot. And, uh, so the candle flames are like-

    7. SPSpeaker1:08:00

       [chuckles] I don't know about your girlfriend, but you'll learn a lot.

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:08:03

       Right. So, uh, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's supposed to be gender neutral-

    9. SPSpeaker1:08:08

       Yeah

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:08:08

        ... by the way. [chuckles]

    11. SPSpeaker1:08:09

        You should correct us since. Correct.

    12. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:08:10

        Right. So, uh, so you have, you, you have this kind of, like, elongated plume, right? So that will actually become spherical when you now, uh, drop in the drop tower or go to space and burn. So there is a different characteristics for combustion-

    13. SPSpeaker1:08:23

        Right

    14. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:08:23

        ... when you now, uh, you know, burn, burn in zero gravity.

    15. SPSpeaker1:08:27

        Right.

    16. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:08:28

        Um, then there is fluid mechanics. So there is a lot of fluid mechanics, like lubrication and all these very tiny stuff, where there is surface tension involved, and surface tension competes with gravity, uh, in those places and so on. So there is, like, a lot of microfluid mechanics, uh, work that will get altered, like valves, how they function and all this stuff will actually-

    17. SPSpeaker1:08:47

        At a very meta level, can I say that a lot of engineering throughout the years, like maybe before the word engineering was there, was about controlling fire, flame, uh, combustion, and so on?

    18. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:09:00

        Yeah, absolutely.

    19. SPSpeaker1:09:00

        And a lot of this has to be relearned on how it'll happen in space.

    20. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:09:04

        Correct. So i- interestingly, the, the, uh, in, in combustion, the reason microgravity was actually, uh, found interesting was, if you remove, uh, G in your equations, you get, like, some nice, like, spherical or cylindrical kind of coordinates. You can solve equations and get some solutions, but you can't compare them with, uh, reality because gravity comes and changes it, right? So for experimental validation, they wanted to go to space to, you know, support their theories, but that's actually a very expensive way of, you know, validating your theories. You might as well actually generate theories that are in sync with, you know, gravity and so on. So the application is actually what happens when you go to space. So these are ... So combustion fluid mechanics, then there is, um, um, uh, crystal growth, uh, things like in pharma and lots of med- uh, what do you call, uh, a material science. There is crystal growth actually gets affected by gravity. Um, the, the, uh, the lattice, uh, what do you call, imperfections and all those things will actually give- become, will, will come in because of gravity. So if you want to do, like, perfect crystal growth, particularly for drugs and so on, you want to actually use micro grav- gravity. And the fourth thing is biology, right? How do, how do human beings, uh, work? How, how does tissue, uh, you know, decay if you don't have gravity? Bones, there's lots of such things. Now, on the crystal growth, you need to have a longer time period than what you can get out of a drop tower.

    21. SPSpeaker1:10:33

        Two and a half seconds is-

    22. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:10:34

        Uh, for biology, you need, like, much, much longer times. So, um, there are- there is drop tower, there is parabolic flights, which is where I'm also thinking eplane-

    23. SPSpeaker1:10:44

        ePlane.

    24. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:10:44

        -will actually be, uh, useful at some point, uh, and, and cheaper, uh, to do, and, uh, then going to space and setting up a space station-

    25. SPSpeaker1:10:53

        Right

    26. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:10:53

        ... and going around. So these are the three things-

    27. SPSpeaker1:10:56

        How much time does a parabolic flight give in micro-

    28. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:10:57

        Uh, that will be about a minute or two. It's not, again, very large.

    29. SPSpeaker1:11:02

        Mm.

    30. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:11:03

        Yeah.
18. 1:12:10 – 1:15:28

    IIT Madras Thaiyur Campus: A "Build" Wonderland

    1. SPSpeaker1:12:10

       Um, so I- you mentioned the Thaiyur Campus again and again. So can you tell us a little bit more about the Thaiyur Campus? I've not been there.

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:12:16

       Yeah, yeah. So that's actually a wonderland. Uh, uh, anybody should ... It's, it's a must visit for a lot of people. So we have ePlane building its planes.

    3. SPSpeaker1:12:25

       Okay.

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:12:25

       We have the 3D-printed rockets of Agnikul that are getting tested there, all the way up to short of launching it. Like, we actually do a vertical stack of the rocket engine the way it is in Sriharikota. We have simulated the, the launch pad that we have in Sriharikota here, um, to get the exact plumbing from the locks side and the kerosene side to, you know, fill the tanks and burn. So all of that stuff happens there. We have this four hundred and ten meter long Hyperloop tube, uh, to be extended to four hundred and fifty. Of course, we have the Port Center, the, uh, NTPC-WEC. It is a little bit ... It's, it's a mouthful abbreviation.... uh, that's the title, correct.

    5. SPSpeaker1:13:08

       So you have a huge, uh, base-

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:13:10

       Title, tidy... Uh, no, it's wave, wave-

    7. SPSpeaker1:13:14

       Wave basin.

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:13:14

       It will be wave basin. Uh, we are also actually developing extra fuels, uh, capability there, where we will be converting, um, uh, municipal solid waste into crude oil. And, uh, that's actually something that came out of NCCRD as well, with my colleague, Vinu. Uh, and I'm al- I'm also a, uh, co-founder there. Um, so we are setting up a facility there. We will, we will also set up a... We'll, we'll go forward to set up a, um, distillation plant that will convert the crude into, uh, more usable, uh, things. Like, I mean, normally we do petrol, diesel, and so on. We prob- probably won't get down to petrol, diesel, but we will actually get down to, like, uh, some heavy fuel oil, light fuel oil, sort of things that are used in furnaces, diesel.

    9. SPSpeaker1:13:59

       I, I'm thinking about- I'm trying to connect the dots between everything you've said. Um, you started as an aerospace, uh, researcher, and then you headed this combustion center, but the company that you're most passionate about, The ePlane Company, is not a combustion-driven plane. So you-

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:14:14

        Hyperloop, Hyperloop is not combustion-driven. It's completely-

    11. SPSpeaker1:14:16

        Yeah

    12. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:14:17

        ... electromagnetic.

    13. SPSpeaker1:14:17

        Yeah. So there's been like a, in your career, there's been like a combustion to battery shift. Um, is that fair to say?

    14. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:14:25

        Uh, yeah. Re- lately, yes. Uh, in the last seven years, I would think, yeah, we can, we can easily say that. Uh, but, uh, rocket still works on combustion.

    15. SPSpeaker1:14:35

        Yeah.

    16. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:14:36

        Um, yeah. GalaxEye, of course, has nothing to do with, uh, anything of these years. So I think the, the, the kick- the, the, the crux of the matter is, do what makes sense at any time, right? Don't worry about... So one of the problems that a lot of, lot of us have is the past baggage.

    17. SPSpeaker1:14:55

        Mm.

    18. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:14:56

        Right? Uh, you've got to be a learner all the time. You've got to be ready to jump into something new, if that's what makes sense now when compared to what has been before. Despite the fact that that's what- what's been happening all, all the while is what you have spent your, a better part of your life, you know, uh, learning, building, and, and doing. It's okay. You can do- you can now start learning to build something different. That's, that's fine. Perfectly fine, if it, if that's what makes sense today.

    19. SPSpeaker1:15:25

        Yeah. Can I ask you, you're

19. 1:15:28 – 1:18:21

    The Joy of Engineering

    1. SPSpeaker1:15:28

       doing so many things. Uh, you're running a center, you're a co-founder in a bunch of companies. Of course, you're a mentor to a lot of students, uh, p- as their faculty advisor, or as the faculty advisor of their team, but also personally an inspiration. Um, you, you still teach, uh, you're teaching now. Uh, and among all this, what gives you, um... What brings you the most joy? Or, like, what do you feel like, "This is something really exciting?"

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:15:54

       Right. So, [clears throat] my now actually working full-time, building the plane, a eplane, gets me to do a lot of engineering, right? And, um, uh, as a, as a researcher, you, you work on, like, one aspect of it. So you l- so think about yourself as a physicist or forget about any of these things. Like, let's say you are a experimental physicist. You have to actually develop a, a setup where you will measure something and so on. As a physicist trying to do that, you are actually an engineer first, trying to develop a setup, right, that will take maybe the heat, or cold, or whatever it is, right? You need to be able to do this. So many times, physicists are focused on the problem that they're studying, but they don't know how to actually develop the setup, and they have to learn a thing or two to, of engineering to do that.

    3. SPSpeaker1:16:47

       For sure. I heard from Professor Mohan one day that, uh, if you are studying the brain, the first thing you need to do is to learn how to take a lot of images at a very-

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:16:55

       Exactly

    5. SPSpeaker1:16:55

       ... close proximity. That's actually, like, really hard in-

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:16:57

       Which has got nothing to do with the brain, right? So it's, it's more about, like, how to image the brain rather than the brain itself.

    7. SPSpeaker1:17:01

       And even things like how to slice it really thin.

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:17:02

       Correct.

    9. SPSpeaker1:17:03

       Yeah.

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:17:03

        Right. Exactly. All of that stuff. So when I was actually doing my research, there was a lot of engineering at NCCRD that we have done, and even prior to NCCRD, in our, the labs that we, that, that I was working with. So we had to develop a lot of setups, right? There's a lot of engineering that goes into it. So I definitely found that engineering is actually really my passion, right? And then that has to be put to use to develop full-fledged products that people can use, and that's what is the joy that I actually get out of making the plane. Right now, I'm no longer a, a propulsion professor, which I was kind of slotted to as a, as a faculty member, right? And I mean, I know about making planes all the way to getting certification better than most of the people in the world.

    11. SPSpeaker1:17:47

        That idea is really powerful, that as a researcher, you're working on a small thing, but then as you sort of expand your scope, you're working on a larger engineering project.

    12. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:17:57

        So I, I would say there is merit to doing that. I have, I have derived pleasure doing some very deep research. There are still more deep research ideas that I have that I've not been able to, you know, pursue because they will take su- such a long time to go through. I may not be even able to come, come out of it, right? As of today, uh, building the plane is actually definitely a lot more, uh, enjoyable.

20. 1:18:21 – 1:20:59

    Wrap

    1. SPSpeaker1:18:21

       Amazing. We covered a lot of ground. Um, I think, uh-

    2. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:18:25

       Spent a lot of time at it, [chuckles] too.

    3. SPSpeaker1:18:26

       Yeah. I- we've been at it for an hour now.

    4. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:18:28

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker1:18:28

       Um, I, I, let's close, and I, I just want to sort of, um, get your closing thoughts. Uh, students who are looking at this or professors who are looking- younger folk who are looking at it, and you're at- you are at a very senior level, right? So what is the advice you would give them on how they should plan their next five, 10, 15 years?

    6. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:18:51

       Uh, see, uh, I used to be, uh, right from when I was, um, at B.Tech, uh, I used to always look at a 10-year horizon of my career. Um, 10 is actually too, too long for most people today. They probably are thinking five or two, or something like that. But if you're wanting to do something serious, it's not a bad idea to have a tentative plan for 10 years, but a more crystal- crystallized plan for five years. Um, that's the way I would go about it.

    7. SPSpeaker1:19:23

       You're saying that think about what you're gonna do in the next five, 10 years-

    8. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:19:26

       Correct

    9. SPSpeaker1:19:27

       ... because it'll take that long to-

    10. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:19:28

        Do anything, anything useful.

    11. SPSpeaker1:19:32

        I think the challenge that students nowadays have... I, I don't know about young professors, but at least, uh, the challenge that stu- I think I have the same problem, is that there are too many opportunities-

    12. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:19:41

        Correct

    13. SPSpeaker1:19:41

        ... and you can't decide, like, all of them seem like I would love this for the next.

    14. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:19:45

        So, yeah, if you're picking what to do for this five, 10 years is not so easy, uh, because you have so many options, uh, you know, in front of you. Think through it. Um, keep something as a default. Keep working at it. Any other opportunity that comes your way, um, weigh it against the default that you have. Uh, if, if your default seems to be better than the opportunity that you have, continue with the default or vice versa. It's o- okay to switch. Absolutely, no problems. Or many times what will happen is that you will see how... If you have the, uh, freedom, uh, you will see how the new opportunity can be dovetailed into what you're doing already, and so on.

    15. SPSpeaker1:20:26

        Right.

    16. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:20:26

        Yeah, so that kind of like reinforces, uh, you even better and all that stuff.

    17. SPSpeaker1:20:33

        Okay. Thank you, Professor. Thank you for watching. Uh, this was the Best Place to Build podcast, and we are with Dr. Satya.

    18. SCSatya Chakravarthy1:20:40

        Thank you. [outro music]

Episode duration: 1:20:59