Swostik Sourav Dash | How NeoMotion's CEO is Building "Freedom" for Everyone | Ep. 2 | IIT Madras

1. 0:00 – 4:14

   Intro

   1. SPSpeaker0:00

      Hi, my name is Amrit. We've heard that IIT Madras is the best place to build. [upbeat music] So we've come down to the Sudha and Shankar Innovation Hub. We want to meet some people. These are builders. We want to talk to them about their work, and also ask them what makes IIT Madras the best place to build? [upbeat music]

   2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash0:28

      Imagine it like it's built for me. Like, for example, your shoe is your shoe, it's built for you. It's our responsibility to start building things so that when the time comes, we're not struggling and say, "Can we fix it?" And then we start importing a bunch of things. So it's basically larger the gap, larger you are at risk in actually solving the long-term issue. [upbeat music]

   3. SPSpeaker0:57

      Hi, welcome to the Best Place to Build podcast. Today we are sitting with Swostik from NeoMotion. Hi, Swostik.

   4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:02

      Hi, Amritash.

   5. SPSpeaker1:04

      Um, let's start with talking about what NeoMotion is and what NeoMotion does. Why don't you go ahead?

   6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:09

      NeoMotion is all about making everyday mobility simple for persons with disability or elderly. For you and me, if we have to go out, we just simply go, wear our shoes, and walk out. But imagine for a person on a wheelchair, it's a very complicated task. They have to think, plan, take help, uh, take help for shifting, transferring. How will I go? So much of planning that needs to be done, and in the process, what typically ends up happening is they don't go out, uh, because they're always feeling that, "I am dependent." And at NeoMotion, we're just trying to solve... make this entire process easy, where a person on a wheelchair doesn't really need to think so much, and make the entire process very simple. So we have a, a, a customized wheelchair and an add-on which converts the chair to a bike. So you just go out, attach it, your two-wheeler is ready, and you can go out. It's powered by battery. You can go on roads, go to your office, mall, uh, go to the grocery market, and actually enjoy life, live life to the fullest.

   7. SPSpeaker2:08

      It's damn cool. You didn't explain your pro- your company as we make wheelchairs or... And you went through this idea that you're making a mobility. How did you des- how do you do that? Like, how do you describe this?

   8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash2:21

      Yeah, so we, we call it like a personal mobility vehicle.

   9. SPSpeaker2:24

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash2:24

       I mean, uh, so it's something... Imagine it like it's built for me. Like, for example, your shoe is your shoe, it's built for you. Your specs are your specs, it's made for you. Now, every human being is different, so the mobility device that needs to be used for them, and specifically when it comes to persons with disability, is uniquely built for them. So we call it personal mobility device, and it, it's a mix of what you sit on, where you're sitting for the long time, and what is helping you move. It's a combination of this entire, uh, thing.

   11. SPSpeaker2:54

       And, uh, people who buy your products end up using it for, did you say going to the malls?

   12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash3:00

       Yeah, yeah.

   13. SPSpeaker3:01

       Um, but is it more than that?

   14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash3:04

       So yeah, I mean, uh, i- imagine it like for everything. I mean, you want to go to office.

   15. SPSpeaker3:10

       Mm.

   16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash3:11

       Uh, you want... You're, you're a student, you have to go to your college, complete your education. You use that to travel. Let me just help you visualize how otherwise it would happen.

   17. SPSpeaker3:21

       Yeah.

   18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash3:21

       Uh, what a wheelchair user would do is they will, uh, they'll go outside their house, they'll call an auto rickshaw or a car. Uh, they will shift and transfer onto that, then somebody has to help fold the wheelchair, put it at the back of the car. You, you see the number of complex activity that it takes. A simple activity of just going, a travel time of 10 minutes is added with a transfer and shifting time of another 10 minutes, uh, another shifting time of another 20 minutes-

   19. SPSpeaker3:46

       Plus, somebody has to come with you.

   20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash3:48

       Plus, somebody has to come with you, and, uh, so on.

   21. SPSpeaker3:51

       It's interesting. I saw your pitch on Shark Tank, and it was amazing. Um, and maybe we'll talk about the Shark Tank pitch for a while.

   22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash3:59

       Sure.

   23. SPSpeaker3:59

       But before that, can we just wind back and discuss how did you get here, how did you get into this product? And, um, I know that you studied at IIT Madras, which years?

   24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash4:10

       Uh, I gra- 2008 to 2013.

   25. SPSpeaker4:12

       Okay. So how did you...

2. 4:14 – 8:36

   Coming to IIT Madras a dream come true for Swostik the builder

   1. SPSpeaker4:14

      Like, let's start from your childhood and just trace your journey to IIT.

   2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash4:18

      Sure.

   3. SPSpeaker4:18

      Fantastic.

   4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash4:19

      So, uh, I, I studied in KV, Kendriya Vidyalaya.

   5. SPSpeaker4:23

      Okay.

   6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash4:23

      And, uh, there are two events which I always used to look up to. Uh, there's the science exhibition and social science exhibition, where you actually go about building things. Those are very interesting points which KV actually taught us. And then, uh, I happened to come to IIT Madras. I'll tell how it, how it all happened. But once I came to IIT Madras, I think that was like a dream come true.

   7. SPSpeaker4:45

      As a student? As a school student?

   8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash4:47

      As a... No, no, as... When, when I came to IIT, uh, for my engineering-

   9. SPSpeaker4:51

      Okay

   10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash4:51

       ... the entire stuff of creating things and building things, like what we used to do at science exhibition and social science exhibition. There, you... There won't be any resources. I mean, you would be trying to, uh, scrap things, find things. Uh, parents won't give you money to buy. [chuckles] You didn't have the luxury to do all of that. But once you came here, like, you had access to the entire resources, to a bunch of people who are thinking like you, and so on. I'll just go back. I mean, my entire... I mean, uh, I did my KV, and then, uh, I was in Kharagpur. I was in Kharagpur, in Kolkata, when my counseling happened in IIT Kharagpur. And, uh, there it was... Somebody told me that, uh, "If you want to do mechanical engineering, uh, IIT Madras is good." I mean, when you apply for counseling, it goes in the same sequence: computer science, electrical, mechanical. You don't know much.

   11. SPSpeaker5:36

       Right.

   12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash5:37

       Uh, but then, yeah, somewhere mechanical was there, IIT Kharagpur, IIT Madras was there, and I happened to be here. And it was a fantastic journey from there on to that exposure of actually, uh, the facility of building things, and so on, started, uh, here.

   13. SPSpeaker5:51

       It's interesting. I, uh, also came to IIT Madras mechanical, but I grew up in Madras, so for me, it was a very natural choice.

   14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash5:58

       Yeah.

   15. SPSpeaker5:58

       It's, it's next door. I'd come to the campus as a student, and, uh, uh, I also had a dual degree, so I was in inclusion manufacturing. I think you were in product design.

   16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash6:05

       I was in product design.

   17. SPSpeaker6:06

       And, um-... I think coming from Madras to IIT Madras is a very seamless journey, but for you it must have been like, like almost like leaving home, going-

   18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash6:15

       Yeah, yeah

   19. SPSpeaker6:15

       ... to a different place. And I've heard a lot of people say that, you know, they're a little afraid to come to Chennai, because it's like, in their mind it's like, "Oh, there'll be too much idli," or I don't know. [chuckles] Was it like that for you?

   20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash6:27

       No, actually, uh, not. I mean, first of all, I would like to say that, that you need not be scared. Madras is a- or Chennai is a, is a nice place to-

   21. SPSpeaker6:36

       It is, right?

   22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash6:37

       It is, it is. It is a very nice place to... When coming from, uh, uh, that part of the country, it's definitely... It's not that, uh, there is something very difficult about it. It's a good place to live. For me, uh, why was that, uh, the choice? Actually, my father had been to Chennai earlier, and he liked the place, and he said, uh, "I know that place. It's good. You can go there. It's got a good environment, culture." And it, it was seamless for me, actually, in that way.

   23. SPSpeaker7:01

       Yeah. Yeah, I think so, too. I think I, I moved to Chennai, uh, with my mother in '98, so a few years before IIT, and I was very happy.

   24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash7:12

       Yeah. Uh, I never... I mean, while, while on campus, uh, you anyway don't have any challenge. Uh, when you go out also, w- w- very- I mean, most-

   25. SPSpeaker7:21

       I mean, you have to learn English

   26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash7:23

       ... Yeah.

   27. SPSpeaker7:23

       You have to learn to negotiate with the auto drivers.

   28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash7:25

       That's the only-

   29. SPSpeaker7:25

       That's the only thing

   30. SDSwostik Sourav Dash7:26

       ... difficult part.
3. 8:36 – 9:40

   Pitching on Shark Tank

   1. SPSpeaker8:36

      On that point, let's get to, uh, your Shark Tank moment.

   2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash8:39

      Yeah.

   3. SPSpeaker8:40

      And, um, this is a big marketing moment for you, right?

   4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash8:44

      Mm.

   5. SPSpeaker8:44

      Like, um, you build these mobility devices, um, and now there's this opportunity to show the entire country what you have done.

   6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash8:53

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker8:53

      How was that journey like?

   8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash8:55

      Uh, so I think, uh, Shark Tank has been, uh, extremely helpful in creating awareness about what we do. Uh, the work that we are doing is almost like a creating a different category. I'm sure everybody knows, uh, what wheelchair is. All of us would have seen, uh, the way wheelchairs look. The basic form factor of them has actually stayed more or less the s- uh, the same. Uh, but if, if we, if we specifically talk about here in India, it's an even greater challenge. Like, if I have to say, uh, this is where, this is where the average wheelchair should be like, a good wheelchair should be like. Maybe in the developed countries they are somewhere over here in terms of innovation. In... Here in India, and you talk about any developing countries, we are almost at a negative. Again, to add on, uh, just to, uh, define

4. 9:40 – 14:13

   Why custom wheelchairs are needed

   1. SDSwostik Sourav Dash9:40

      why it is like this, is like, see, you're wearing a shoe. Your shoe is made for your size. A wheelchair is something which a person sits for, for such a long duration, for eight hours to 10 hours in a day, and what we have right now is a one-size-fits-all, and that's what in, in India, what we get. It's like imagine slapping a shoe of size 14 to everybody, like all of you wear a shoe of size 14 and start walking. How will you walk? You can't. So the wheelchairs-

   2. SPSpeaker10:05

      That's there

   3. SDSwostik Sourav Dash10:05

      ... that's here right now is, is like that.

   4. SPSpeaker10:08

      If it's a one-size-fits-all, somebody will be too small for it, somebody will be too big for it. It may just be uncomfortable in many different ways.

   5. SDSwostik Sourav Dash10:16

      It is uncomfortable. It leads to multiple secondary complications occurring. It means it affects and damages your health over a period of time.

   6. SPSpeaker10:25

      Mm.

   7. SDSwostik Sourav Dash10:26

      Uh, even if, like, there are young people who have the ability to propel their own wheelchair, because that's how it should be done, that's a mode of exercise and, uh, activity. And then when you're sitting on a chair which doesn't fit you, your ergonomics of propelling is so difficult. Your, your shoulders are like this. You can't be moving like this throughout the day. So this is what is the present scenario. So, I mean, this is the average technology presently in the market, what we have is here, and there's a long jump to be made for us to bring that change.

   8. SPSpeaker10:58

      So first you have to inform the whole market that a customization is available?

   9. SDSwostik Sourav Dash11:04

      Yeah. And also, uh, very simple example: if, uh, if you have to go and buy a phone, you would go to the shop and say, "I need so much of battery life, I need so much of RAM, I need this, this screen size." If I have to ask you, you have to go... You, you are- you go to a shop and buy a wheelchair, how do you go about it?

   10. SPSpeaker11:26

       I'm... [chuckles] Maybe it's like S, M, L.

   11. SDSwostik Sourav Dash11:29

       Excel. [chuckles]

   12. SPSpeaker11:31

       No.

   13. SDSwostik Sourav Dash11:31

       I have told you that.

   14. SPSpeaker11:32

       [chuckles]

   15. SDSwostik Sourav Dash11:32

       You won't even ask that.

   16. SPSpeaker11:34

       Fair enough.

   17. SDSwostik Sourav Dash11:34

       Yeah. So if-

   18. SPSpeaker11:36

       Fair enough

   19. SDSwostik Sourav Dash11:36

       ... actually, uh, let me help you visualize that. Somebody will go to a shop and say, "I need a wheelchair," and then the criteria will be, "This looks good, and this has got a better fabric on it." And then the person will go and they will touch it. "Okay, this maybe feels comfortable." And then there is a third element of price, and that's it. It is... It's, it's absolutely absent. So, uh, I mean, just coming back to the Shark Tank point and relating to that, the- that you have to create an awareness that this is how a good wheelchair should be like, this is how you should go and ask for it, that entire understanding is missing. So it's not just about creating the product-... but actually educating the customer that, or the end user that this is why it should, it should be like this. This is what- this should be the, be normal-

   20. SPSpeaker12:23

       Right

   21. SDSwostik Sourav Dash12:23

       -and it has not been this way.

   22. SPSpeaker12:25

       Right.

   23. SDSwostik Sourav Dash12:25

       And that's a huge task.

   24. SPSpeaker12:27

       Fair enough. In software, there's a term that's used called category creation. I mean, in marketing-

   25. SDSwostik Sourav Dash12:31

       Yeah

   26. SPSpeaker12:32

       ... and, and that refers to the idea that, uh, when you are creating a category, the, the consumer is not aware of the specs or the pricing.

   27. SDSwostik Sourav Dash12:39

       Yeah.

   28. SPSpeaker12:40

       And so this is like a category creation, kind of, for a challenge.

   29. SDSwostik Sourav Dash12:43

       It, it is almost like a category creation, and very specifically, uh, what becomes challenging in this particular sector is that, uh, w- everybody has seen a wheelchair. And then when you're going and trying and explain that all of this is required, it takes time for people to even understand. And, uh, further, when the baseline price has been set so low-

   30. SPSpeaker13:07

       Mm
5. 14:13 – 19:38

   Running a for-profit business

   1. SPSpeaker14:13

      into.

   2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash14:13

      Okay.

   3. SPSpeaker14:13

      But on Shark Tank-

   4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash14:15

      Yeah

   5. SPSpeaker14:15

      ... one of the issues, one of the things that the Sharks raised-

   6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash14:18

      Yeah

   7. SPSpeaker14:18

      ... or the confusions that the Sharks had is, is this a social venture? Is it a business venture? How do you look at this?

   8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash14:24

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker14:25

      And, um, you know, I used to sell children's books, uh, which as a category has that same issue, because there are some nonprofits, there are some very few small for-profits, and people are always confused on, are you doing this on passion? Are you doing this for love? Are you doing this for social benefit? Uh, and, and maybe the permission for us to have... think of profit was not there. So how is it like for you?

   10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash14:49

       Our approach has been, uh, to operate as a for-profit entity. And, uh, I would also say that why it is important. So it's not that if you're doing, if you're, if you're doing... I mean, what do we call as a social enterprise? It's basically something which has not been done by anybody. Nobody has created a profitable business or a venture in that, and, uh, which is not lucrative, and hence, you term it a social enterprise. And then maybe you go and start raising funds, because it's a difficult business model to solve.

   11. SPSpeaker15:17

       Fair enough.

   12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash15:18

       Uh, so we take that path, and we do that. So even, I mean, I can say, we, whatever work we are doing is absolutely social, but we are a for-profit. And the objective of trying it to be in a for-profit world, it builds efficiency. It, it pushes you to figure out models which will sustain for long. I mean, uh, imagine if I'm operating purely out of philanthropy, or that has been the mode of operation. Maybe it's possible that I can continue to do it, but the market doesn't decide, the end user doesn't decide. It's the philanthropy or the, the body which is donating, they decide whether I'm interesting in today's point of time. If their focus shifts to water or sanitation, then I'm not, you know-

   13. SPSpeaker15:57

       Oh, it's very interesting. You are saying that if it's a for-profit-

   14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:00

       Yeah

   15. SPSpeaker16:00

       ... then it's a conversation between the builders, the co- uh, company, and the consumers.

   16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:04

       And the consumers.

   17. SPSpeaker16:05

       But if it's a nonprofit-

   18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:06

       Yeah

   19. SPSpeaker16:06

       ... then the conversation is between the philanthropist-

   20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:09

       Yes

   21. SPSpeaker16:10

       ... and the builder, and the consumer is sort of-

   22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:14

       If, if consumers don't decide... I mean, market is here to stay. I mean, the end users are here to stay. When they are deciding, when we're trying to work with them, reducing the gap between the buyer and the user, it's very clear. Like, there is a buyer, which is a philanthropy in that particular case, the user is somebody else. Whether the user likes it or not, who cares?

   23. SPSpeaker16:31

       Mm.

   24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:32

       We... In a sponsor-driven, it is like that, because-

   25. SPSpeaker16:34

       But rather the philanthropy's personal biases will dominate.

   26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:39

       Yes, uh, what they feel. So the goal is to actually... I mean, we-

   27. SPSpeaker16:44

       And tomorrow, if they think that I'm gonna move sectors to, say, water, or I'm gonna move sectors to-

   28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:49

       Right

   29. SPSpeaker16:50

       ... something else, then it's gone.

   30. SDSwostik Sourav Dash16:51

       Absolutely. So it's basically larger the gap, larger you are at risk-
6. 19:38 – 27:46

   How he got to start up in the assistive devices business

   1. SPSpeaker19:38

      I also want to say that, uh, this is not your only product, right? Like-

   2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash19:42

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker19:42

      ... there are more products coming in.

   4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash19:44

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker19:44

      Can you give us an idea of your, how you plan your product? And, and I think you spoke about it in Shark Tank also, right?

   6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash19:49

      Yeah. So, uh, let me tell you how I got, how we got into, uh, disability products, persons with disability as a segment in itself. Uh, so our introduction, my introduction to this was as a part of my final year project, my master's thesis. Um, now, my five years at IIT was all about hardware, and as a part of my final year project also, I wanted to do something hardware. And there are only two profs where it is like, you, you do all this analysis simulation, but then you should build it, and that is the deliverable. And Professor Sujatha Srinivasan, uh, who is also one of the co-founders at NeoMotion, and who was my guide as a part of my master's project, she used to work in, uh, assistive technologies. For me, it was interesting because I not only design, uh, something, I build it, but it is also for... directly for a human being. So I think that touch was exciting for me. Uh, once I had built, uh, I built something called as a swimming pool lift to help the person get into a swimming pool for exercise and come out, and I didn't know how powerful it would be. I mean, I built all of that. I did all the math theory. And then somewhere around April or May, uh, after the entire thesis, all of that was done, I took it to the field for a trial. Uh, and there were five, six people who used it, and I was amazed by how powerful a simple mechanical device actually makes in their life. The... Everybody came and said, "Thank you, you built this. It has changed so much." I felt powerful, in the sense, like, as a mechanical engineer-

   7. SPSpeaker21:11

      Yeah

   8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash21:11

      ... you're doing something so small, and it, it makes a difference. When I graduated-

   9. SPSpeaker21:17

      Can I, can I just say one thing here?

   10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash21:18

       Yeah.

   11. SPSpeaker21:18

       It's interesting to me how you are talking about build as this very natural thing. "I'm an engineer. I came here to do mechanical engineering."

   12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash21:25

       Yeah.

   13. SPSpeaker21:25

       "So I asked somebody where to go. I came to IIT Madras. My five years were about building."

   14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash21:29

       Yeah.

   15. SPSpeaker21:30

       Um, the, the opinion of what engineering is about-

   16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash21:34

       Uh

   17. SPSpeaker21:35

       ... for c- centuries has been about building, you know, building rockets, building bridges, building robots.

   18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash21:42

       Yeah.

   19. SPSpeaker21:42

       Suddenly, in the last five, 10 years, it's about coding. Isn't this, like, disconcerting when you meet someone and they say, "You're an engineer, you must be a coder?"

   20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash21:51

       Yeah. So that happens very often. Like, when I say I, when I say I'm an engineer, people often confuse that, "Okay, you, you must be-"

   21. SPSpeaker21:59

       Yeah, which software company? Which product?

   22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash22:00

       A- and, and when people say product-

   23. SPSpeaker22:03

       Yeah

   24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash22:03

       ... uh, by product, when I say, "No, it's a hardware," that's also, people can't relate-

   25. SPSpeaker22:06

       Yeah

   26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash22:07

       ... that at all.

   27. SPSpeaker22:07

       Yeah.

   28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash22:07

       That touching-

   29. SPSpeaker22:08

       Yeah

   30. SDSwostik Sourav Dash22:08

       ... has been there. Uh, yeah, actually, there are very few who are into hardware, I would say.
7. 27:46 – 31:46

   Centre for Innovation at IIT Madras

   1. SPSpeaker27:46

      Let's address the thing that both of us know. We've been waiting for to talk about it. We are in CFI.

   2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash27:51

      Okay.

   3. SPSpeaker27:52

      And as a student, you were the student head for CFI in, in twen- 2012.

   4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash27:57

      Yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker27:58

      And, uh, first of all, it's an amazing thing to do.

   6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash28:02

      Yeah.

   7. SPSpeaker28:03

      Uh, why don't you take us through what is CFI, and, uh, how was your CFI experience?

   8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash28:10

      Okay. So I was, uh, pulled into CFI on day three of me joining campus. [chuckles] So-

   9. SPSpeaker28:19

      Recruit early, guys. [chuckles]

   10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash28:21

       So, uh, so during our... I was in Ganga hostel. So during one of the roll calls, uh, Ravikant asked, uh, "Who knows coding?" I raised my hand that I know coding C++, another two, three of us, and then he got me up. Then he said, "We are doing this thing, and we need to write a code of this." I said, "I don't want to do this. I want to build this." So they were building something called as an, uh, Want to Fly, an aircraft that was being built. Uh, so this was this amazing place where things come to life, in the sense, form, I mean, a shape is given to different objects. That's how 2008 and all, it was there. It's this bunch of crazy people who are all excited about transforming their thoughts, designs, ideas into a physical form. Uh, integrating that with intelligence, adding different features to it.

   11. SPSpeaker29:11

       It must have been really exciting because you loved science projects in school.

   12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash29:15

       Mm-hmm.

   13. SPSpeaker29:15

       And then suddenly you're here, and this is like, basically like an upgraded science project, right?

   14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash29:20

       It's super upgraded, with access to multiple people who are thinking like you-

   15. SPSpeaker29:24

       Yeah

   16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash29:25

       ... with resources, which is out there. You're not struggling around. At one place, you have everything. So it, it, it was like crazy. Like, I don't remember a day when I have returned earlier than 2:00 AM. Like, every day used to be a ritual, like come, go, this, this, this, come here, build something work. And my five years were actually like that, and, uh, it's fantastic. I mean, it's, it's one of those... If you, if you love building things, and this is a place where time flies and you won't know. Uh, that's the environment, that's the energy, and, uh, everybody's so excited about it. For me, it has been, uh... it's, it's been great in... W- whatever I'm doing right now, I can trace it back completely to this. Um, that exposure of you getting your hands dirty with all that oil, grease, cutting-

   17. SPSpeaker30:09

       Mm

   18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash30:09

       ... that hand.

   19. SPSpeaker30:09

       So you, you were part of the Want to Fly. Any other teams you were part of?

   20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash30:12

       Uh, I was part of Want to Fly and Aero Club, uh, for my three years. Uh, then all the Shaastra events core, and then I became, uh, a CFI.

   21. SPSpeaker30:22

       Oh, Shaastra. Oh, yeah, somebody told me that you love Junkyard Wars.

   22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash30:26

       Oh, yes. [chuckles]

   23. SPSpeaker30:27

       I think Junkyard Wars was a show on Discovery.

   24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash30:30

       Yeah.

   25. SPSpeaker30:30

       And, uh, it was in my year that we added Junkyard Wars to... So-

   26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash30:34

       How was it?

   27. SPSpeaker30:35

       ... it, it is. It is. It was my idea. [chuckles]

   28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash30:37

       Great!

   29. SPSpeaker30:37

       I was like, "I love this show. We must have it."

   30. SDSwostik Sourav Dash30:39

       Yeah.
8. 31:46 – 34:08

   Being Student Head at the Centre of Innovation

   1. SPSpeaker31:46

      Nice. Um, how was it like heading CFI? Because as a student, you get part, part- to be part of this, you're so excited. You're, you're working as, on individual components-

   2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash31:56

      Yeah

   3. SPSpeaker31:57

      ... staying till total. That's a different experience. But-

   4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash31:58

      Correct

   5. SPSpeaker31:59

      ... as a, as the head, it's no longer about working yourself, but about... I don't know, what is it about?

   6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash32:05

      I'll, I'll tell.

   7. SPSpeaker32:06

      Okay.

   8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash32:07

      Uh, so it's, uh... I think the entire culture that has created CFI is my seniors taught me. They did it for me. I have to do it. I have to pass on the same knowledge, knowhow, with the juniors. I think I know two, three years people who were above me, and two, three years were junior to me. Uh, so the entire part of heading it is all about exposing students, freshers, second years, third years, about what are the different possibilities that you could do. And it's not that you're trying to pull everybody in. It's like, "This is, this is the landscape. This is what you could do," exposing them to various tools. And then those who are interested will anyway come, and then it is all about working with them, guiding them, shortening their project duration. It's all about knowledge sharing. Like, I have done this in the past. I know why it happened, why it did not go right, or this went right. Sharing that with them so that further, whenever pro- model projects are being done, they're happening faster, better, and so on. So I think bulk of the work as a part of s- student head was being in touch with different juniors, and along with that, definitely all these administrative tasks, going to dean's office, figuring out how to get the payment and fundraising. Those are, those are anyway part and parcel, but the larger, the part which we enjoyed the most is interacting with-

   9. SPSpeaker33:27

      I like to think that, uh, going to dean's office and getting the payment done is training for life. [chuckles]

   10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash33:32

       It's training for life. [chuckles]

   11. SPSpeaker33:33

       Because I'm sure you are, at some point, going to a customer and saying-

   12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash33:37

       Yeah

   13. SPSpeaker33:37

       ... "Please finish this payment."

   14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash33:38

       I agree.

   15. SPSpeaker33:39

       Great. Amazing. Uh, and you're, uh, in the line of some really nice CFI heads we've had.

   16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash33:45

       Yeah.

   17. SPSpeaker33:45

       Uh, a lot of them have become entrepreneurs. Uh, there's, of course, Swapnil.

   18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash33:49

       Yeah.

   19. SPSpeaker33:49

       Uh, I think he was heading the Raftaar project.

   20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash33:50

       Right.

   21. SPSpeaker33:51

       He's now the CTO at Aethir. Uh, there's, um, Siddharth, who runs Bharat AGY.

   22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash33:59

       Right.

   23. SPSpeaker34:00

       I think, uh, was he your junior?

   24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash34:01

       He was my junior, yes.

   25. SPSpeaker34:03

       Quite cool. And of course, Ravikant himself is-

   26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash34:05

       Yeah

   27. SPSpeaker34:06

       ... running a EV consultancy-

   28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash34:07

       Yeah

   29. SPSpeaker34:07

       ...

9. 34:08 – 36:45

   Prof Sujatha and R2D2 lab at IIT Madras

   1. SPSpeaker34:08

      uh, thing. But what about your collaborators in NeoMotion? Uh, you, uh, you're... Obviously, we are talking to you as representing NeoMotion-

   2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash34:15

      Mm

   3. SPSpeaker34:15

      ... but it's, it's a team. It's like, uh, I, and quite a few people, right?

   4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash34:19

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

   5. SPSpeaker34:19

      And on Shark Tank, I think there were three of you.

   6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash34:21

      Right.

   7. SPSpeaker34:21

      There's, of course, Dr. Sujatha also.

   8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash34:23

      Yeah.

   9. SPSpeaker34:23

      Can you tell me how their journeys have been? Were they also CFI guys?

   10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash34:28

       Yeah, yeah. So, uh, all three of them, Ashish, Siddharth, whom you saw on Shark Tank, everybody has spent good time here at, uh, CFI. Uh, let me start with, uh, Professor Sujatha. I think her exposure to, uh, AT as a sector, assistive tech as a sector, was back as her final year project in 1992. And from there on, she has been... she has stuck onto this. And, uh, yeah, I mean, she worked here. She went to the US. She was in industry, then she came back, and when she came back, uh, she realized that nothing much has changed in so long, and hence she started, uh, the R2D2 Center at... uh, which will basically focus us on rehabilitation research and device development.

   11. SPSpeaker35:09

       Now, what is R2D2?

   12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash35:11

       It's, again, uh, it's a center of excellence which is called as Rehabilitation Research and Device Development.

   13. SPSpeaker35:16

       Okay.

   14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash35:16

       It basically works on, uh, developing, furthering the products, technology, research in biomechanics, in, uh, mobility products for persons with disability. So in fact, I mean, uh, the work that we did spun out from that center.

   15. SPSpeaker35:33

       Okay.

   16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash35:33

       Uh, so multiple products are built. It's also like, uh, like a mini CFI sort of thing.

   17. SPSpeaker35:39

       Mm.

   18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash35:39

       And almost all the students who go there have spent time in CFI. It's like a natural hiring route. Like, if you have come to CFI, come to R2D2. That's how d- that's how it used to happen.

   19. SPSpeaker35:48

       Damn cool. I want to just com- comment that I have always felt that R2D2 Lab has a great name, and, uh, of course, because R2-D2 is one of the most recognizable robots of all time.

   20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash35:59

       Yeah.

   21. SPSpeaker36:00

       So Dr. Sujatha and, um, uh, was your final year guide.

   22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash36:04

       Yeah.

   23. SPSpeaker36:04

       Which is understandable.

   24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash36:05

       Yeah.

   25. SPSpeaker36:06

       But then you went to ITC, and then you came back and joined her lab, is it?

   26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash36:08

       Yeah, yeah.

   27. SPSpeaker36:10

       That's interesting.

   28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash36:11

       She was my faculty advisor. I have known her for five years. Uh, she was my master's thesis guide also. I was always in touch with her, uh, what was happening. She's a very nice person to, to work with. And, I mean, when I was in ITC also, I, I, I was discussing with her, "I'm thinking about making some changes." I mean, or, uh, a transition, see, figure out what I want to do next, and that is when she told me that, "Swostik, uh, we have the standing wheelchair. Can we look at working on it together?" And that's when I decided, "Let's, let's come back and make a product, and then we'll figure out-"... I was maybe starting a company or something at

10. 36:45 – 39:54

    Research work leading to successful startups at IIT Madras

    1. SDSwostik Sourav Dash36:45

       that point of time.

    2. SPSpeaker36:46

       It's interesting to me that now what's happening at IIT Madras in, uh, in the fields of computer science, AI, mechanical, all fields, that their professors were working on something, their students were working on something. There seems to be a natural way to collaborate, which is fine, but now that's ending up becoming an enterprise, and a startup, and has a journey of it beyond the lab. That's quite cool.

    3. SDSwostik Sourav Dash37:11

       I think, in fact, that should be the natural progression-

    4. SPSpeaker37:14

       Yeah

    5. SDSwostik Sourav Dash37:14

       ... 'cause all the work that we do, imagine the number of prototypes that we generate, but what's the point of that if it is not reaching the end user or-

    6. SPSpeaker37:23

       Right

    7. SDSwostik Sourav Dash37:23

       ... the end goal, being consumed? So I think it's extremely important that this should be the natural course. I mean, maybe to an industry or a startup.

    8. SPSpeaker37:30

       Maybe you say it's natural now, but I'm just looking at it from a perspective of the academic institution saying-

    9. SDSwostik Sourav Dash37:36

       Yeah

    10. SPSpeaker37:37

        ... "Look, this is our mandate, you know, make pilots, or make... Not pilots, make prototypes. Our mandate as an academic institute stops with research, uh, stops with, um, uh, uh, with prototypes, and then, you know, somebody from the industry should come and pick it up." But now the mandate at IIT Madras, I don't know about other IITs, but at IIT Madras it's very clear that we are not stopping at-

    11. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:00

        Yeah

    12. SPSpeaker38:01

        ... uh, at prototype. We are going to take it all the way.

    13. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:04

        Right.

    14. SPSpeaker38:04

        Which is a great change-

    15. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:06

        Correct

    16. SPSpeaker38:06

        ... and it's maybe a 10-year-old.

    17. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:08

        I think it is just recent. I mean, within my time itself, we have-

    18. SPSpeaker38:11

        Yeah

    19. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:11

        ... seen that change.

    20. SPSpeaker38:12

        Except for maybe, uh, Professor Jinjanwala's lab, which, you know, from the '80s they have been thinking like that.

    21. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:17

        Yeah.

    22. SPSpeaker38:19

        Um, fantastic. Um, and maybe Prof Krishnan also, Ramesh's lab, which has been doing that for many years.

    23. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:24

        Yeah.

    24. SPSpeaker38:24

        But now it's like every lab-

    25. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:25

        Now-

    26. SPSpeaker38:26

        ... thinks like that.

    27. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:27

        Right.

    28. SPSpeaker38:28

        That's amazing. Uh, but how does that collaboration work? Because the, the R2D2 lab, it's still an academic institution lab, and then how does that collaboration with you as an entrepreneur, uh, work with the, the sort of the academic environment here?

    29. SDSwostik Sourav Dash38:43

        Uh, there are multiple, uh, modes by which this could be set up. Like, specifically for us, it's like a joint development and joint ownership of patent. So whatever technologies we built, the designs that we built, both NeoMotion and IIT Madras owns it. So that's the basic premise on, on which this operates.

    30. SPSpeaker39:02

        So I guess it was always possible, it was just a mindset change, or maybe the times have moved in such a way that this has become now natural.
11. 39:54 – 41:31

    Co-founders at NeoMotion

    1. SDSwostik Sourav Dash39:54

       uh, so we have, uh, Ashish and Siddharth, uh, who are, uh, my other, uh, co-founders. Uh, Ashish is a junior to me, but also, again, he spent his entire five years at CFI, and did his final year project with Dr. Sujatha. So again, a very natural... He was just graduating, I had just come back, and I said, "Don't go anywhere. [chuckles] It's fine, come work together." And then I kind of pushed him. I mean, he had a placement from Philips, then I said, "Okay, come, come join," and he was excited. I mean, he knew about it, and so on. Uh, Siddharth, um, uh, Siddharth worked for, uh, Schlumberger. And, uh, then, uh... So Siddharth is actually my hostel mate. I mean, we were, we were neighbors, uh, in the same bay, and we were, uh, secretaries in the hostel also at the same time. I was technical affairs, he was into sports. And, um, his- I think he ha- I think he had spent his first and second year at CFI, uh, again, building things, and then he got into sports and others. But he also had a sense of building things. He had that passion. And, uh, after, after graduating, we were in touch. He was in Schlumberger, then he wanted to work in the social sector. He actually joined, uh, SBI Fellowship, uh, Youth- they have a program called Youth for India, and he was in Odisha, uh, in a remote village, uh, working with a bunch of students at a school, uh, trying to help them, uh, on multiple subjects, science, computer, and so on. And again, we were in touch. Uh, somewhere he had that social inclination, and then after that fellowship, then we were speaking and, uh, we said we could use each other's skill and we could grow it together. So he came in, and then, uh,

12. 41:31 – 44:35

    Pressure of getting a high-paying job vs building a startup

    1. SDSwostik Sourav Dash41:31

       Siddharth has been a part of-

    2. SPSpeaker41:32

       I have a question here. When you talk so effortlessly of people going to an ITC, coming out, going to a Schlumberger, coming out, going to a Philips, coming out, and these are companies that pay really well, do great work. Amazing companies, right?

    3. SDSwostik Sourav Dash41:47

       Yeah.

    4. SPSpeaker41:47

       And then when I talk to, uh, high school students who are trying to apply to IIT or whatever, they're, they're writing JE now, they've just got through JE, there's an excitement about building a startup, but there's also this, um, sort of fear or maybe peer pressure that, "I need to get a really good-paying, high-paying job." You know the number, I'm not gonna say it. Um, "And, uh, maybe I should get into AI, or I should get into CS, or I should pick up Python," uh, and so on. And how do you... When you talk to s- young students, how do you deal with this anxiety that-

    5. SDSwostik Sourav Dash42:21

       Yeah

    6. SPSpeaker42:22

       ... you know, there's this mix of, "I want to build planes and things that move, but I also want..."

    7. SDSwostik Sourav Dash42:28

       So I think, uh, s- s- so it's basically your interest, and then this huge social peer pressure or whatever media hype that has been created, and then where you're trying to push yourself, force yourself into that. I think, uh, for me, what, what actually had helped, and maybe for the others also, I think when most of us came to IIT from our peers-

    8. SPSpeaker42:50

       ... you also kind of understand to discover yourself, figure out that. And, uh, at some point of time, you'd also feel and realize that, no, this is possible. And for me, I got the confidence when I met multiple people who had started their- on their own, and who were doing really well. So it's just that the start may be challenging and rough, but, say, fast-forward 10 years, 20 years, it's actually a very nice place to be. Like I spoke about, I met, uh, our alumni from the '60s and '70s who have their own business, and who do very well. So for me, that was a moment of, uh, confidence. So while so much is being spoken about the conventional routes, I think now starting up is still all right. Like, go back 2010, starting up is like, "What?"

    9. SDSwostik Sourav Dash43:42

       Yeah.

    10. SPSpeaker43:43

        "What are you doing? Have you gone nuts?"

    11. SDSwostik Sourav Dash43:44

        Yeah, yeah. And my mother didn't speak to me for three months after I started. [chuckles]

    12. SPSpeaker43:49

        Um, I, I wanna say, I wanna say... So what you're saying is that the conventional plumber J, um, ITC Phillips route is always available-

    13. SDSwostik Sourav Dash43:56

        Yeah

    14. SPSpeaker43:57

        ... and it's a good route, but as you see other people building and as you see other people succeeding at it, you also get confidence that, "I can do this-

    15. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:06

        Yeah

    16. SPSpeaker44:06

        ... and I will earn sufficiently-

    17. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:08

        Yes

    18. SPSpeaker44:09

        ... uh, and do well."

    19. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:10

        Right. Just that the ratio is right now skewed. We speak lot more about conventional routes, maybe lot less about building your own startup, creating your own startup. Now, it's slightly better.

    20. SPSpeaker44:20

        Yeah.

    21. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:21

        Uh, we are all-

    22. SPSpeaker44:22

        That's it

    23. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:22

        ... we, we are all waiting for Ather's IPO- [chuckles]

    24. SPSpeaker44:24

        Okay

    25. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:25

        ... because [chuckles] that will make a lot more money available to a lot more people, and then maybe everybody will raise their IPO.

    26. SPSpeaker44:33

        And your IPO, hopefully. [chuckles]

    27. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:34

        Yeah. [chuckles]

13. 44:35 – 49:32

    Hardware manufacturing in India and what lies ahead for NeoMotion

    1. SPSpeaker44:35

       Um, is it possible to, uh, become, like, that big in this sector? Like, how much is the market size?

    2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:42

       So, [chuckles] yeah. So I think every time, uh, people ask, uh, "How big is your market?" I just park that question aside. I say, "You start-

    3. SPSpeaker44:53

       Okay, let me ask you a different question.

    4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:54

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker44:54

       Let's leave out the market size question because I think it's an Excel sheet.

    6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash44:58

       Yeah, it's, um...

    7. SPSpeaker45:00

       I'm avoiding using the word here.

    8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash45:03

       It's an Excel sheet exercise.

    9. SPSpeaker45:04

       Yeah.

    10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash45:05

        So, um-

    11. SPSpeaker45:06

        Instead of asking you that, let me ask you, is it possible for you to take your products across the world and become a world leader in this segment? And I'm also asking this because multiple hardware companies I've spoken to, building out of India, uh, seem to say that when you go out, um, people almost view an Indian company as a low-end company. Like, almost like a liability. Like, you know, like, "Oh, you're from India. I, you know, I'll talk to you later," um, in hardware. And I know that Ather is now available in Nepal and Sri Lanka, which is okay, which is slightly-

    12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash45:44

        It's hard, yeah

    13. SPSpeaker45:44

        ... at least it's going out of our shores.

    14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash45:46

        Yeah.

    15. SPSpeaker45:47

        Um, but how hard is it?

    16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash45:49

        So, uh, I think from a perception viewpoint, uh, that's absolutely right, if you actually go out and say you're from India. Because traditionally, we have not been great manufacturers. Uh, traditionally, we have not been... Our quality, finish, uh, reliability, have always been, uh, in question. It's not that I, I... We can't think of multiple or any example which is like, which has been done, well-designed here, built here, has gone somewhere. So that precedence is not there.

    17. SPSpeaker46:18

        Yeah.

    18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash46:18

        And whoever has tried, uh, what other products have gone, or maybe we have also experienced that the quality may not have been good. But is it possible? Yes, it is possible. This simple example of Ather, I mean, designing and manufacturing the entire thing here is itself a feat. And when you look at it, the quality finish, it's amazing. Specifically for us, uh, yes, I mean, our entire... From day one, the goal has been like this. Uh, our, our design principles are all based on very first principles. Like, we've thought about it from the basics. The quality standards that we are looking at is, again, the best-in-class that we could think about-

    19. SPSpeaker46:52

        Right. It's not reverse engineered.

    20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash46:54

        It's not reverse engineered.

    21. SPSpeaker46:55

        We took this, uh, electric wheelchair, we ripped it apart, did it again.

    22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash46:58

        Yeah.

    23. SPSpeaker46:58

        No.

    24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash46:58

        Yeah, yeah. So it's understanding the end user and building it from ground up, piece by piece, so that they all fit seamlessly. And we will be... In fact, the goal is that we're doing all this work. India is a fantastic market to start. You'd have, uh, the most demanding consumers. We, we want the best or pay the least. It's a fantastic test market.

    25. SPSpeaker47:19

        Demand the best and pay the least.

    26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash47:20

        Yeah.

    27. SPSpeaker47:21

        Fair enough.

    28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash47:21

        Yeah. So, uh, it, it does well, and then we should be able to go out and, uh, be out there. So if you ask me specifically in this particular category, just regarding the market size of it, how I visualize what, what is our thought process? See, India will age. See, what is our average population right now? Fast-forward 10 years, 20 years, there would be requirement of significant number of such products, technologies, which would be required. The average age of living, the life expectancy, has been-

    29. SPSpeaker47:50

        Increasing

    30. SDSwostik Sourav Dash47:51

        ... up, has been increasing. Uh, so people are here to stay, and they will be on their own.
14. 49:32 – 51:11

    Journey from engineer to entrepreneur

    1. SPSpeaker49:32

       That interesting. Uh, you also spoke about... I think when we were chatting earlier, you mentioned that, "Okay, so here's a product that's been built in a lab, uh, from first principles. We have met the users, we have figured this out. Uh, then the lab has sort of... You've collaborated with the lab to set up a company."

    2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash49:50

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker49:50

       "The patents are jointly owned, the- but the enterprise is running on its own."

    4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash49:53

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker49:54

       "You're, you're- you've started selling." There's a huge mindset shift also, right? You've moved from an engineering mindset to a-

    6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash50:00

       Yeah

    7. SPSpeaker50:00

       ... uh, sort of like a business mindset, and how was that journey for you?

    8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash50:04

       What we need to appreciate is there is a, there is a constant process of unlearning and relearning. Like, you wear multiple hats during the entire journey, and it doesn't come to you naturally, but then during the course of interaction... So I think IIT Madras incubation cell, the number of mentors that we have, in some, some of it has been helpful. You keep meeting different people, and then they keep asking you multiple questions, and then you feel, "Okay, why is this question relevant right now?" You won't appreciate it, but you would appreciate it after a year. "This guy had told me this. It makes sense right now." Uh, so I think as an entrepreneur, if you're able to meet multiple people, being exposed to that question, it helps, and that constant... Like, let me tell you this. Uh, just maybe six or seven months before we, I accepted that we don't know sales. We don't know marketing. It's only six months before that we got into that. I mean, there is a science behind it. There is a logic behind it, which, like, unless you reach that stage, you'll, again, not accept it. So I think there is a natural progression over there, and it's about, I think, at each stage, identify at what stage of the company are you in, and, uh, seek help, and that's the only way.

    9. SPSpeaker51:08

       I also appreciate that it's

15. 51:11 – 54:28

    Entrpreneurship ecosystem and funding support at IIT Madras

    1. SPSpeaker51:11

       easy to say seek help, but unless help is available-

    2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash51:14

       Huh

    3. SPSpeaker51:14

       ... to be gotten, it's of no use, right? And, and I think over the last five, 10 years, the, the incubation ecosystem, uh, has evolved a lot. So what is really the support you've got from IIT, other than that from R2D2 Lab?

    4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash51:31

       I think the, the, uh, the biggest help would be from the incubation cell, would be in terms of access to various mentors, uh, that we have had. So these have been seasoned people who have been there in the industry, who have run businesses at very large levels, uh, those who have started business on their own. So when you meet to them, you get to know various questions which you won't think on your own. Uh, I think that is fast-tracked, uh, and that helps you. It may not be relevant at this point of time, but then it registers in your mind that there is this angle, uh, there is this viewpoint to be also considered, which you have not looked at right now. You can decide whether to, whether to act on it right now or not. Uh, but the importance is knowing that this is a question which is of relevance, purely in terms of risk or purely in terms of, uh, how people think about pricing, how consumers behave about pricing. Today, you start something, your discount changes, and so on. You, you... Once you discuss, you get exposed to, okay, what are the possibilities that could be out there?

    5. SPSpeaker52:32

       Fair enough. So you get access. So, uh, initially, we spoke about access to technology, access to prototyping facilities, uh, access to co-founders and early employees. Now we are speaking about access to mentors who are sort of giving you, uh, answering questions before you even had those questions.

    6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash52:50

       Yeah.

    7. SPSpeaker52:50

       So-

    8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash52:51

       Yeah

    9. SPSpeaker52:51

       ... what about money?

    10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash52:54

        Yeah.

    11. SPSpeaker52:54

        Did the inc- ecosystem help you with that?

    12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash52:56

        Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So, uh, yeah, so, uh, IITM incubation cell, again, I think, uh, you do get your, your seed fund, your... Uh, you could also get a couple of grants from there. And, uh, it, it definitely helps you in the initial stage, I think for your entire pilot MVP, at that stage, you get the money from there. And there, there, uh, there is access to angel networks from there, where you could maybe do your seed round from there on as well. Uh, we have taken a different path. I mean, uh, for us, we know that it's a, it's a problem which has got a long cycle. I mean, even to understand the market and put all the puzzles together, all the pieces together, uh, would take a long time. So it's, it's a hardware, and then it is also so-called social, uh, it's, it's a social problem. Uh, and we didn't want to be under, uh, any constraint on a timeline perspective, that if you start by this much time, you actually have to achieve this, because we don't know whether it is achievable or not, whether it is possible or not. So our goal was to become self-sustainable as quickly as possible, be as lean as possible, and reach that stage. Because if you reach that, then NeoMotion is here to stay, and if NeoMotion stays, we will be bringing the change. Uh, so that has been our model. So we operate, we have operated through grants, and presently it's purely debt. It's for our working capital rotation. It's like a line of credit. You buy materials, you supply, you sell, you make money. That goes reinvested for marketing, uh, your R&D, and so on.

    13. SPSpeaker54:25

        But, uh, you were specifically saying that you didn't

16. 54:28 – 58:03

    Building NeoMotion bootstrapped

    1. SPSpeaker54:28

       go down the venture funding route?

    2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash54:29

       Yeah, we didn't go down.

    3. SPSpeaker54:30

       One of the things that happens with venture funding route is that... I mean, all of that, what you said is right, that of course, it comes with the constraint that the funding, the, the VCs who will come in, uh, will, uh, sort of have some constraints, at least on timeline.

    4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash54:43

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker54:44

       At least like-

    6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash54:44

       Yeah

    7. SPSpeaker54:44

       ... do this by this time.

    8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash54:45

       Yeah, yeah.

    9. SPSpeaker54:46

       And then what if you can't?

    10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash54:47

        Yeah.

    11. SPSpeaker54:48

        Right. What if the, what if the, uh, community takes longer to-

    12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash54:51

        Yeah

    13. SPSpeaker54:51

        ... uh, respond and so on?

    14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash54:53

        That's all.

    15. SPSpeaker54:53

        Mm, but also, the, the one thing that VC funding gives you is that it gives you, uh, social capital.

    16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash55:00

        Correct.

    17. SPSpeaker55:00

        Uh, people recognize you much easier, that, "Oh, this is your valuation. This is what you're worth."... people join faster, um, maybe, uh, even the press recognizes a little better. So didn't you feel that you wanted that part of VC funding?

    18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash55:15

        Sure. So I think... So I'm not saying that VC funding should not be taken. So imagine it like a, imagine it like a, a, it's like a, [clears throat] a collaboration or a whatever, a marriage, I don't know, some word like that.

    19. SPSpeaker55:28

        Yeah.

    20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash55:29

        Between the company and the VC. See, everybody has a- so the, the company has a business model, the, uh, the VC fund also has a business model.

    21. SPSpeaker55:38

        Yeah.

    22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash55:38

        There has to be coherence in that, and if that is not the key- I mean, if you know of it from day one, then why? You go around, you meet various people, like, and then you find that there has to be sync and coherence between how it is there. So it's not that it's not... Certain businesses, if you don't take VC funds, you can't grow fast, and it is required, otherwise you'll not sustain.

    23. SPSpeaker55:55

        Yeah.

    24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash55:56

        It's, it's more like relevantly for your business, do you think... If somebody says me, "Swostik, take X, change the market," can you actually? No, I don't. I- if you, if you give tons of money, it's not that I can go and change the market, because the market takes... When I can give discounts, everybody will have NeoMotion products, but then it will not sustain it. It's just a one-time activity. So idea is to, uh, idea is to actually be able to create in a way which, which stays and which continues, and that is... The longevity is important. Does it help us in social capital? Definitely, yes. Did we miss it? Again, it was missing for us.

    25. SPSpeaker56:31

        Okay.

    26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash56:31

        So if you see the team, whatever we have, are all those people who are extremely passionate about the cause.

    27. SPSpeaker56:36

        Mm.

    28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash56:36

        So it's not that we created, uh... We had some brand value because a few people came and joined. We were doing something interesting, exciting, uh, and our present entire team are all those who are interested about hardware in general, and impact as a larger purpose.

    29. SPSpeaker56:53

        Mm.

    30. SDSwostik Sourav Dash56:54

        So that's naturally, very few people will come, but those who are there are here to stay.
17. 58:03 – 1:05:07

    Wrap

    1. SPSpeaker58:04

       Nice, this was a great conversation. I think, uh, we spoke about, uh, your childhood, giving JEE, uh, uh, loving science projects in KV.

    2. SDSwostik Sourav Dash58:13

       Yeah.

    3. SPSpeaker58:14

       Um, and this almost like stepping into CFI as a dream, and then spending five years here really building stuff, going to ITC, working in a factory, coming back to R2D2 Lab, long collaboration with Dr. Sujatha, and then your products became, uh, available to customers, and that became a thing now.

    4. SDSwostik Sourav Dash58:34

       Yeah.

    5. SPSpeaker58:34

       You have some, uh, collaborators on this journey of yours. Uh, in the meantime, you came to Shark Tank, and that was, like, a lot of visibility.

    6. SDSwostik Sourav Dash58:42

       Yeah. Shark Tank was fantastic in, uh, building that awareness about the product. So it's not like... I mean, we're not selling like chips or biscuit that you go and then suddenly your sales goes up. Uh, it's like it's, it's a product which you may need, and there are some people who would need, uh, but would like to evaluate and so on. Uh, for us, it has helped in our brand validation. People have seen about it. People have experienced it. So at multiple places, uh, when we're having an interaction, we see something and say, "I was considering about it. I think I've seen you on Shark Tank also," and it helps in, uh, in, in building that credibility and resulting in, uh, making a purchase decision or a sponsorship decisions, and so on. So it's been amazing. A lot of people know about it just from Shark Tank.

    7. SPSpeaker59:27

       That, that period of Shark Tank when it aired, how was the first one week like?

    8. SDSwostik Sourav Dash59:33

       We had, uh, definitely a lot of, uh, inquiries, a lot of people inquiring about it. "What is it like? Where is it available? How can I buy it?" And so on. So it was, it was crazy increase in, uh, numbers of people inquiring about it and asking to know more.

    9. SPSpeaker59:46

       I think it's a, it's a great forum for that, right? Like, because it airs at a very good time, and-

    10. SDSwostik Sourav Dash59:53

        Imagine getting 10 minutes of screen time-

    11. SPSpeaker59:56

        Yeah

    12. SDSwostik Sourav Dash59:56

        ... on national channel, a very popular one, at a prime time.

    13. SPSpeaker1:00:00

        Yeah.

    14. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:00:01

        Uh, it is extremely powerful.

    15. SPSpeaker1:00:03

        Yeah, and that, too, you're being, um, asked questions, insightful questions, by a very, um, well-respected peer group.

    16. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:00:10

        Yeah.

    17. SPSpeaker1:00:11

        Not peer group, well-respected group of people.

    18. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:00:14

        Group.

    19. SPSpeaker1:00:14

        Yeah, um, fantastic. I mean, congratulations on that, and, um, yeah, you're a self-funded, bootstrapped company which is making profit-

    20. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:00:22

        Yeah

    21. SPSpeaker1:00:22

        ... investing in R&D. Um, your factory is in Chennai?

    22. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:00:26

        Our factory is in Chennai.

    23. SPSpeaker1:00:27

        Oh, all right. And so what's next? What, what do the next five, 10 years look like?

    24. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:00:33

        Yeah, I think, uh, the, uh... In a country like India, we have a user base of only 5,200. It's a very, very small number.

    25. SPSpeaker1:00:41

        These are the number of, uh-

    26. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:00:42

        These are the number of people who are using NeoMotion products. I think when we started, maybe... We asked me three years before, I would be, like, excited. We have 2,000 people, 3,000 people using it. Now it's like, in India, you have just 5,200 users, so imagine where are we? We have a huge, long way to go. It's the beginning of a very long marathon. All that we have done in the last five, six years is just put the different pieces together.

    27. SPSpeaker1:01:04

        What is product development? What is pricing?

    28. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:01:07

        ... how, what is production? Maybe what is go-to-market, and what is after sales? We have just put these pieces together. Now it's about making this engine very well-oiled, efficient, so that it can really grow. And lot of work to be done on sales and marketing, market creation, and, um... Yeah, I think, I mean, our goal is to quickly reach one lakh users, maybe in the next three, four years, and then we will see how it takes from there. So more people using it, more products in pipeline and development, and getting all the regulatory clearances for export. All of that, that lies ahead.

    29. SPSpeaker1:01:43

        And, uh, how do you see CFI growing? I mean, just, just to be clear here, um, I graduated just before CFI started.

    30. SDSwostik Sourav Dash1:01:50

        Yeah, yeah.

Episode duration: 1:05:07