The Curiosity Shop with Brené Brown and Adam GrantHow This Podcast Could Fail
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
65 min read · 13,460 words- 0:00 – 1:02
How Brené Inadvertently Launched Adam into Podcasting
- BBBrené Brown
Support for this show comes from Canva. What's your next big thing? Whatever it is, you can design it with Canva. From presentations powered by AI, to social media posts, from logos all the way to websites. Whatever your idea is, you can make it a thing in Canva. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com.
- AGAdam Grant
Support for this show comes from SAS. It's time to have an honest talk about AI. Not about whether it will replace us, but about how it's becoming easier and easier to outsource our thinking to systems that people just won't understand. Thankfully, SAS has been in data and AI for 50 years, and they believe in a pretty simple idea: AI should be explainable, well-governed, and worthy of trust. Visit sas.com to see how AI should be built for high-stakes decisions, where the cost of getting it wrong is real and human accountability isn't optional. Learn more at sas.com. That's S-A-S.com [upbeat music]
- BBBrené Brown
[glass breaking] Hi, everybody. This is The Curiosity
- 1:02 – 2:57
- Closing Questions
- BBBrené Brown
Shop. I'm Brené Brown. Welcome.
- AGAdam Grant
I'm Adam Grant. I'm excited that we're here again. That was... The first episode was much [laughs] more fun than I expected.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, me too. I, I was kinda nervous. Were you nervous at all?
- AGAdam Grant
I wasn't nervous going in, but I started getting nervous when we started talking about our fight, argument, what do you call it? A dust-up?
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
'Cause I wasn't, I wasn't sure how that was gonna go.
- BBBrené Brown
And we had never... It's weird that we just did it on a podcast [laughs] as opposed to doing it, like, in person, but-
- AGAdam Grant
It felt like we had to talk about it because it's the origin story.
- BBBrené Brown
It is the origin story.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I actually... Do you know I started podcasting because of that fight?
- BBBrené Brown
What?
- AGAdam Grant
I, I've never told you this. Okay, so 2016, I write that New York Times piece. I quote you. You write your strongly worded smackdown. I respond, you respond. I didn't know what to do at that point because I, I felt like it was unresolved. I was, I was really upset that you clearly [laughs] thought I was, you know, not a respectful person, not a careful scholar. And I also... I, I felt like there was a lot more to explore in the, in the differences between our views that we hadn't gotten to. And I reached out to Ted, and I said, "Hey, like, two of your speakers are having this very public debate. Have you ever thought about doing, uh, instead of just people doing monologues, like, a debate at TED?" And they said, "No, but this would make for a really interesting podcast."
- BBBrené Brown
You're kidding.
- AGAdam Grant
No. And so that, that, that was my first conversation ever about podcasting. And the thought was that Ted was gonna host it, and you and I... somebody was gonna m- moderate, and that we were gonna have a conflict
- 2:57 – 16:08
Interpreting Sarcasm
- AGAdam Grant
mediator try to reconcile our differences. Because I was so, I was so upset-
- BBBrené Brown
I mean, I had no idea of any of this
- AGAdam Grant
... I, I was, I was so distraught at the thought that it would just be left hanging and that we wouldn't, we wouldn't work it out. And then it was very clear that you did not want [laughs] did not wanna engage from the signals you had sent, and I also... I think it stung enough that I was like, "You know what? I don't, I don't wanna, I don't wanna have a relationship with her." And that morphed into, "I'm gonna create a podcast with, with Ted."
- BBBrené Brown
If you watched his great podcast, you're welcome. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
That was all you, Brené.
- BBBrené Brown
For the win.
- AGAdam Grant
All you.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh my-
- AGAdam Grant
But, but here we are.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. Is that wild?
- AGAdam Grant
Literally 10 years later, doing a podcast together.
- BBBrené Brown
And it's been bumpy.
- AGAdam Grant
Very bumpy.
- BBBrené Brown
Building-
- AGAdam Grant
Sometimes literally.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. [laughs] Okay, yeah, 'cause we didn't tell this... We didn't get into this part. So we... You know, this is kinda like the part two. We do the... You invite me to do the work with you. We do the work together, um, with the women's sports team. What happens from there? You... I invite you on the podcast.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, I loved our conversation on the podcast, and it became one of my most downloaded podcasts of my whole series.
- AGAdam Grant
And then you were the first episode of the new podcast I launched. Uh, we did... So we did one where-
- BBBrené Brown
Yes
- AGAdam Grant
... I got to interview you, and then we started doing the, the rotating conversations with Simon Sinek.
- BBBrené Brown
You and Simon Sinek, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And we did a bunch of those, and it was, it was fun. And I, I think we s- also started then overlapping more at events, as opposed to, "Oh, you were there two days ago," and then I showed up, or, "You were there last year," and then I did this year.
- BBBrené Brown
We started seeing each other more.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
And then we ended up on a flight together.
- BBBrené Brown
Then... Oh, but before we got on the flight, the night before, we were on stage together for the first time.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, and that-
- BBBrené Brown
Do-
- 16:08 – 28:57
How to Prevent Failure
- AGAdam Grant
things like you do and say, "Wait a minute," like, you're, you're, you know, you're a straightforward, kind of clear, sincere communicator, and therefore you shouldn't be sarcastic because that's not who you are. And how many people look at it like I do and say, "I interpret that behavior through the lens of your, what I know about your personality." I wonder which is more common. And I obviously think mine [laughs] is more common and you're the outlier.
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
And I'm excited to find out if I'm wrong.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah, I don't know. We'll, let's pose it on LinkedIn and have people weigh in.
- AGAdam Grant
Oh, we can, we can just have people comment on YouTube now.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, that's right.
- AGAdam Grant
And on Spotify.
- BBBrené Brown
Wait. Do we have comments open on YouTube? We do not have comments open-
- AGAdam Grant
Oh
- BBBrené Brown
... on YouTube.
- AGAdam Grant
All right. We'll-
- BBBrené Brown
We can talk about that later.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. We should.
- BBBrené Brown
We should have a podcast on that.
- AGAdam Grant
We should.
- BBBrené Brown
We should have a podcast on, on comments.
- AGAdam Grant
Yes.
- BBBrené Brown
I got a lot of thoughts.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's do that.
- BBBrené Brown
'Cause I've got 'em closed everywhere.
- AGAdam Grant
And I have 'em open.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
So we'll, uh-
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. We'll-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... yeah. Okay.
- AGAdam Grant
Let's add that to our list.
- BBBrené Brown
Support for this show comes from Canva. An idea is just an idea, but actually transforming that idea into a thing, that's where the real work lives. It can be a journey full of pitfalls and banging your head against a wall, or it could be a lot easier than that with Canva. Canva is packed with templates and design tools to turn your idea into something real. From presentations powered by AI to social media posts, logos, and websites, whatever your idea is, you can make it a thing in Canva. Canva, the thing that makes anything a thing. Learn more at canva.com.
- AGAdam Grant
I think this is a great segue to the topic of today, today's podcast, which is we've already started talking through the thing we didn't get to last episode, which is how could this go wrong? And one way I think this partnership could go wrong is if I am sarcastic [laughs] in ways that lead you to feel attacked, and then you either get defensive or g- or attack in reverse, and then we end up in the kind of, I think, like, prosecutor spiral that we got into 10 years ago.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. So-
- 28:57 – 38:42
How Could This Partnership Could Go Wrong
- BBBrené Brown
learning that comes out of a qualitative analysis of what mine are and theirs are is if they don't take equal responsible, r- responsibility for their learning.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
That they are passive in the-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... that my job is to teach, their job isn't to learn.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
It will also be a failure if my job is to come in from a consumer perspective to make them happy-
- AGAdam Grant
Right
- BBBrené Brown
... and, and not challenge them-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- BBBrené Brown
... into discomfort.
- AGAdam Grant
That's so interesting.
- BBBrené Brown
So we do a premortem even when we teach.
- AGAdam Grant
I didn't realize I've been, I've been doing the results of it. Without, without having the premortem conversation, I take the postmortem, um, um, from the mid-course and, like, end of semester evaluations that I get every year, and then I open the next year's class by saying, like, one of the common ones is there are always complaints that we don't have enough debate in class, because people are afraid of challenging me-
- BBBrené Brown
Right
- AGAdam Grant
... and they're also afraid of, you know, damaging their relationships with their new classmates, especially with MBA students.
- BBBrené Brown
Oh, yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
Undergrads worry about it too, though. And so I say, "Look, I don't think we have enough debate in the classroom." And then I give them a mechanism, um, which is they can hold up a pen if they disagree, and that way I will jump the line and call on the people with the pen up so that they, they get to, you know, to bring in some of that productive dissent.
- BBBrené Brown
But that's premortem informed-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... pedagogy, right?
- AGAdam Grant
It is.
- BBBrené Brown
Teaching.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I had never thought to do the actual premortem.
- BBBrené Brown
I thi- I, I like anything that's a parallel process.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
You know? That we're doing it, but we're also kind of-
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah
- 38:42 – 52:05
Learning From Differences
- BBBrené Brown
we're really good at those things. So I think I liked the fact that you said if we continue to do them. I am... Are, is there one thing that we've talked about that you're the most worried about?
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah, I think... Well, I think it's-
- BBBrené Brown
[laughs] Sorry.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I, I think it's the, the combined category of, you know, what it looks like to be a successful team together/ you know, co-found something together. I don't even like calling it a business. Like, I don't, I don't wanna build businesses. Like, I think of myself as an intellectual entrepreneur. I, I wanna build ideas and share them.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. [laughs]
- AGAdam Grant
[laughs] And are you gonna respond to that or just sit there?
- BBBrené Brown
I hope this shit works, dude. [laughs] I'm like, um... Okay. [laughs] Sorry. Um, oh, an intellectual entrepreneur. Okay. Now, okay. So this also reflects how we intervene with the companies we work in too.
- AGAdam Grant
It does. And you have more impact because you are willing to roll your sleeves up more than I do.
- BBBrené Brown
I don't know about impact. I mean, I don't-
- AGAdam Grant
I do.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Well, I, I am deeply embedded, and I'm, like, brought into conversations and sit in strategy meetings where I'm not only observing the behavior of the leaders, but I'm weighing in h- how, on how they're thinking about relocating supply chain.
- AGAdam Grant
And I, like, I, you cannot give me a parachute faster-
- BBBrené Brown
Okay
- AGAdam Grant
... to get out of those conversations.
- BBBrené Brown
Yeah. So-
- AGAdam Grant
Like, I, I only wanna be in that deep if I'm, like, if I'm running an experiment or doing a longitudinal survey, and then we're gonna publish research out of it.
- BBBrené Brown
Got it. And I'm doing that to, I'm doing that, I'm doing that different. I, I do that. We do dare to lead intervention.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
So dare to lead is the work, and we go in and work with companies. And sometimes these interventions will include 30,000 people.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
And I'll be working at the, kind of the C-suite level and the direct reports of the C-suite. But they are very tactical, very messy, and very detailed. Like, I'm in the detail.
- AGAdam Grant
I-
- BBBrené Brown
I'm in the weeds.
- AGAdam Grant
I, I-
- BBBrené Brown
I'm embedded.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. I mean, I, I think I would fall asleep in the first minute.
- BBBrené Brown
Okay. Yeah. I mean, so-
- AGAdam Grant
Is that the one you were most concerned about too?
- BBBrené Brown
For sure.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah. Okay. Maybe we should talk a little bit about the, the, the logo design as a microcosm of this. Or maybe we shouldn't. [laughs]
- 52:05 – 1:10:33
How to Align Teams
- BBBrené Brown
think we're in danger is, and I'm gonna introduce a new concept. One of the hardest things about Strong Ground when I was writing it was this idea of what, how do we future ready leaders? And what is the, what is the collection of mindsets and skillsets that we need to be ready? And one of the things that I've seen up close and personal with everybody in senior leader, I mean, every single senior leader with the exception of engineers, is a real lack of systems thinking.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
Right? A real lack of systems thinking. And so one of the things that systems theory has taught me the most, and it's a very integral part, weirdly, of social work. Social workers, especially MSWs-
- AGAdam Grant
Yep
- BBBrené Brown
... master's in social, get there, and they're like, "Okay, how do I help people? How do I community organize or become a clinician?" Or whatever they're gonna do on the big scale of what is social work. And their first class is, like, systems theory, and they're like, "What the hell?" Because we think of communities as systems. We think of families as systems, you know? In systems theory, there's this, especially Donella Meadows' work, and I'm a huge fan of her systems work. There's a big triangle. At the top, you, is, like, the iceberg that you see. Underneath the iceberg is a bunch of stuff. If you see a problem and you intervene at the problem, the iceberg level, there's no leverage. You're gonna fix a problem, you're gonna see it again in-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm
- BBBrené Brown
... two weeks maybe.
- AGAdam Grant
Yep.
- BBBrené Brown
As you go down under the water, you go through what are the systems that are not working, what are the behaviors that are not working, and at the bottom, you have mental models.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
You and I work off different mental models.
- AGAdam Grant
Very different mental models.
- BBBrené Brown
Right. So that graphic design was an iceberg issue.
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm.
- BBBrené Brown
But underneath it were mental models.
- AGAdam Grant
Self-expectations.
- BBBrené Brown
Self-expectations. What's the, what's your mental model-
- AGAdam Grant
Yep
- BBBrené Brown
... about what a graphic should do-
- AGAdam Grant
Yes
- BBBrené Brown
... that's going to be our logo, that's gonna be, that it's ultimately gonna be like this with our pictures in it? You taught me about, you look at things like is it gonna explain to what people or is it gonna immediately-
- AGAdam Grant
It's the meaning
- BBBrené Brown
... the meaning.
- AGAdam Grant
Yeah.
- BBBrené Brown
For me, with, like, the shop and all that stuff, I was trying to create a place of warmth and belonging and comfort-
- AGAdam Grant
Mm-hmm. Yep
- BBBrené Brown
... where people could come in from the outside and be like, "So much vitriol, so much bullshit. This is a place where we can talk and disagree."
- AGAdam Grant
And this is why we complement each other well, because we want both meaning and feeling.
- BBBrené Brown
But would you agree that mental model discussions are rare?
- AGAdam Grant
Rare and vital because, you know, I, I actually, [laughs] I t- a light bulb just went off as you were talking about system theory on mental models specifically, which is-I think part of the reason that I have this knee-jerk reaction when we start talking about collaboration processes and getting on the same page, I actually have this when we talk about return to office and remote work too, which we should definitely get to in a-
Episode duration: 1:10:33
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