The Diary of a CEO

The Body Trauma Expert: This Eye Movement Trick Can Fix Your Trauma! The Body Keeps The Score!

Steven Bartlett and Bessel van der Kolk on eye Movements, Somatic Healing, Psychedelics: Rethinking How Trauma Recovers.

Bessel van der KolkguestSteven Bartletthost
Dec 23, 20242h 2m
Definition and neurobiology of trauma (reliving vs. remembering)EMDR and bilateral stimulation as trauma treatmentSomatic and body‑based therapies (yoga, martial arts, bodywork, theater)Childhood trauma, attachment, and long‑term mental and physical healthPsychedelic‑assisted therapy (MDMA, psilocybin, ketamine) and self‑compassionLimitations of mainstream psychiatry, diagnosis, and medication‑centric modelsCommunity, synchrony, and social connection in healing and prevention

In this episode of The Diary of a CEO, featuring Bessel van der Kolk and Steven Bartlett, The Body Trauma Expert: This Eye Movement Trick Can Fix Your Trauma! The Body Keeps The Score! explores eye Movements, Somatic Healing, Psychedelics: Rethinking How Trauma Recovers Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, renowned psychiatrist and author of *The Body Keeps the Score*, explains how trauma rewires the brain and body, and why traditional, talk‑only or purely cognitive approaches often miss the mark. He distinguishes trauma as a visceral, speechless reliving—where the body and perceptual systems behave as if the past is happening now—rather than a mere story or memory.

At a glance

WHAT IT’S REALLY ABOUT

Eye Movements, Somatic Healing, Psychedelics: Rethinking How Trauma Recovers

  1. Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, renowned psychiatrist and author of *The Body Keeps the Score*, explains how trauma rewires the brain and body, and why traditional, talk‑only or purely cognitive approaches often miss the mark. He distinguishes trauma as a visceral, speechless reliving—where the body and perceptual systems behave as if the past is happening now—rather than a mere story or memory.
  2. He illustrates how EMDR, yoga, neurofeedback, theater/psychodrama, bodywork, and carefully guided psychedelic therapy can restore a sense of safety, agency, and connection by changing both brain activity and bodily experience. A live EMDR demonstration shows how simple eye movements can rapidly reduce the emotional sting of a distressing memory.
  3. Throughout, he emphasizes that most of the people he sees carry early relational wounds—being unseen, invalidated, or abused—and that healing is possible but under‑supported by profit‑driven, medication‑heavy mental health systems. Real recovery, he argues, is rooted in safe relationships, community, movement, and experiences that contradict helplessness.
  4. The conversation also explores his war‑time childhood, how his own trauma shaped his life’s work, the pitfalls of over‑diagnosis (like ADHD), and practical implications for parenting, community, and how individuals can find genuinely effective help.

IDEAS WORTH REMEMBERING

7 ideas

Trauma is a visceral reliving in the body, not just a memory or story.

Neuroimaging of people reliving trauma shows heightened activation in emotional/perceptual regions on the right side of the brain and shutdown in key left‑hemisphere cognitive areas, especially the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex, the brain’s “timekeeper.” This means in a triggered state, the body and brain experience the event as happening now, with little perspective or language. Effective healing must address this bodily and perceptual reliving, not just thoughts.

EMDR can rapidly reclassify traumatic experiences as past rather than present.

In EMDR, clients recall a traumatic experience while moving their eyes side to side (or following a therapist’s fingers). Research shows this bilateral eye movement activates pathways between self‑representation (temporoparietal junction) and body awareness (insula), helping the brain tag the event as “then, not now.” In van der Kolk’s NIH‑funded study, about 78% of adults with single‑event, adult‑onset trauma were completely cured of PTSD after EMDR; complex childhood trauma is more resistant but still treatable.

Somatic therapies restore connection to the body and interrupt trauma‑driven habits.

Trauma often leads people to either feel too much (hyperarousal) or too little (numbing) in their bodies. Practices like yoga, martial arts, qigong, massage, and rolfing help people feel physical sensations safely, expand movement patterns, and experience agency and pleasure in the body. For example, yoga has been shown in his studies to reactivate brain regions dampened by trauma, while martial arts can give formerly helpless people a visceral sense of strength and self‑protection.

Most adult psychological problems he sees trace back to relational childhood trauma and neglect.

Around 90% of his patients, by his estimate, have early experiences of being unseen, invalidated, or abused (“Nobody saw me. Nobody heard me.”). CDC ACE data shows that eradicating child abuse would drastically cut depression, addiction, suicide, and even physical diseases. Words alone can be deeply wounding—constant messages like “no one will ever like you” become core identity imprints. These early relational experiences profoundly shape how the brain maps the world and what a person expects from others.

Psychedelic‑assisted therapy can catalyze self‑compassion and reframe trauma at a deep level.

In phase III trials of MDMA‑assisted therapy that he helped run, ~67% of participants no longer met PTSD criteria versus ~30% with therapy plus placebo. He emphasizes that the deeper change is not just symptom reduction but shifts in self‑relationship: people see their younger selves with compassion (“this poor kid”) and often feel compassion for perpetrators, recognizing their limitations. His own MDMA sessions exposed the vicarious pain he had carried from patients, making him “sadder but wiser” and more humble.

Labels like PTSD and ADHD are crude surface descriptions, not explanations.

He argues that current diagnostic systems (like the DSM) are largely artifacts of committees, not grounded in robust neuroscience. Conditions such as ADHD and PTSD exist on continua and arise from multiple factors—genetics, toxins, trauma, and more. Many traumatized children meet ADHD criteria simply because trauma disrupts their capacity to focus and self‑regulate. Treatment should target underlying brain organization and context (social, physical, relational) rather than over‑relying on medication or rigid labels.

Healing and prevention depend heavily on safe relationships, community, and synchrony.

Trauma is fundamentally a breakdown of connection and synchrony with others. Recovery is potentiated when people move, play, make music, or perform in groups (sports, theater, choir, dance), recreating the “band of brothers” dynamic seen in military units and community responses to disasters. For children, secure attachment and having someone reliably “come to your rescue” in moments of helplessness is protective; being raised by multiple caring adults and a wider “village” buffers against parental pathology and reduces intergenerational trauma.

WORDS WORTH SAVING

5 quotes

Trauma is not a memory, it’s a reliving.

Bessel van der Kolk

You become how people see you.

Bessel van der Kolk

I cannot talk you into being a reasonable person. People are not reasonable people.

Bessel van der Kolk

Our focus these days is on productivity and behavioral change, not on how do we find out how to help you.

Bessel van der Kolk

Much of life is automatic, but we can make a choice to do things differently. You start owning yourself.

Bessel van der Kolk

QUESTIONS ANSWERED IN THIS EPISODE

5 questions

You showed that EMDR can make an upsetting memory feel distant in minutes—how do you decide which memories are safe to target first, especially in someone with a long history of complex childhood trauma?

Dr. Bessel van der Kolk, renowned psychiatrist and author of *The Body Keeps the Score*, explains how trauma rewires the brain and body, and why traditional, talk‑only or purely cognitive approaches often miss the mark. He distinguishes trauma as a visceral, speechless reliving—where the body and perceptual systems behave as if the past is happening now—rather than a mere story or memory.

When someone begins yoga or other somatic work and finds that certain poses or body sensations are intensely triggering, what specific steps should they and their instructors take to keep the process therapeutic rather than re‑traumatizing?

He illustrates how EMDR, yoga, neurofeedback, theater/psychodrama, bodywork, and carefully guided psychedelic therapy can restore a sense of safety, agency, and connection by changing both brain activity and bodily experience. A live EMDR demonstration shows how simple eye movements can rapidly reduce the emotional sting of a distressing memory.

Given your concern that profit motives distort mental healthcare, what would a realistically implementable, trauma‑informed public system look like if we actually prioritized outcomes over throughput and billing?

Throughout, he emphasizes that most of the people he sees carry early relational wounds—being unseen, invalidated, or abused—and that healing is possible but under‑supported by profit‑driven, medication‑heavy mental health systems. Real recovery, he argues, is rooted in safe relationships, community, movement, and experiences that contradict helplessness.

Your own MDMA sessions revealed the cost of vicarious trauma and made you a “sadder but wiser” man—if you could redesign psychiatric training, how would you protect clinicians from that accumulation of unprocessed pain?

The conversation also explores his war‑time childhood, how his own trauma shaped his life’s work, the pitfalls of over‑diagnosis (like ADHD), and practical implications for parenting, community, and how individuals can find genuinely effective help.

You argue that diagnoses like ADHD and PTSD are crude surface labels; in practical terms, how should an individual use or ignore those labels when deciding whether to take medication, pursue neurofeedback, or focus on body‑based and community‑based approaches?

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

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