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The Diary of a CEOThe Diary of a CEO

Why dyslexia and his mother shaped Newsom into a fighter

Why a single mother, severe dyslexia, and the wine business shaped Newsom; he confronts Trump, the Epstein file, and his own years of alcohol misuse.

Gavin NewsomguestSteven Bartletthost
Jul 24, 20251h 52mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:27

    Intro

    1. GN

      Epstein and Trump were close. Sorry, Donald. Just a fact. And when Elon Musk tweets Trump's on the list, and a few days later there is no list, it begs questions. So they dangled this in order to get votes, and they lied to people. And we're only six months in, and the vandalization that he's done, pushing the boundaries on the rule of law, this is darkness.

    2. SB

      Really? Because I hear this every election cycle.

    3. GN

      No. It's a dangerous game and America is struggling and I really worry about our democracy. But Trump is likely to lose power unless they can rig the game.

    4. SB

      Governor Gavin Newsom, are you going to try and become the next President of the United States?

    5. GN

      Heh. Governor of California- Gavin Newsom. Gavin Newsom.

    6. SB

      Who is the real Gavin Newsom?

    7. GN

      I think most people see me as sort of, you know, a slick guy, grew up with a trust fund, but I didn't come from any wealth. Like my mom was a single mom, but she was working two, three jobs. She ran out of her own bedroom, sacrificed everything for two kids, and I was going nowhere academically, but she never gave up on me.

    8. SB

      And as your sort of political career starts to accelerate, she was diagnosed with breast cancer.

    9. GN

      Yeah. And she was in so much pain, suffering, she's gonna do an assisted suicide. And, uh, I was holding her hand as she's (gasps) and her last breath... But look, everything that defines the best of me, grit, hard work, is reflected in her, and that led to me sitting here with you as Governor of California in politics. He's an incompetent governor. Look at the job he's doing. He's a stone-cold liar.

    10. SB

      There's always conflict between you and Trump.

    11. GN

      I think he enjoys sparring with me. I know he thrives on it, but I'd be lying if I didn't say every time I have a conversation, it's unbelievably cordial, and he says, "You need anything, call me." Including the night before he quote unquote "federalized" the National Guard, but then calls me new scum. New scum. He wants to take me out.

    12. SB

      Do you think he's gonna try and stay in power?

    13. GN

      So I don't think I'm exaggerating, but when people close to Donald Trump send the Governor of California hates them, they're not fucking around.

    14. SB

      I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe, so if you could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show and the trajectory it's on. So, please do double check if you've subscribed and, uh, thank you so much, because in a strange way, you are- you're part of our history and you're on this journey with us and I appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank you.

  2. 2:27 – 13:05

    Can You Believe Your Life?

    1. SB

      Governor Gavin Newsom. Can you quite believe your life? You're, you're running one of the most consequential states in America, arguably the most consequential state in America, but also I, I read that it's the fourth highest GDP-

    2. GN

      In the world now.

    3. SB

      ... in the world. It's always in the headlines. There's always conflict between you and Trump. I just wanted to start with this question, like can you-

    4. GN

      (laughs)

    5. SB

      ... believe your life?

    6. GN

      If you talked to my 10-year-old self, this is impossible. Couldn't even dreamt it. I don't know if it was a dream or a nightmare at 10.

    7. SB

      Hmm.

    8. GN

      I mean, I'm not sure this is what I wanted at 10. I'm not sure I wanted this at 20 or even 30.

    9. SB

      And I know you're gonna continue to shoulder roll what I'm gonna say, but many of the bookmakers, the odds have you as being the next President of the United States in 2028.

    10. GN

      Yeah.

    11. SB

      I'm gonna throw that... I know you're gonna shoulder roll it and tell me California...

    12. GN

      Well, that's surreal. I mean, that ridic- I mean, that's something that even i- in those higher moments, not low moments, where I may have had a little bit more confidence, in a million years would never have imagined that I would be at th- this moment. And I, you know, that's, that creates a lot of humility, have a lot of grace around that. I mean, the idea that that's, you're even in the conversation, I know that sounds rote and cliched, little humble brag.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. GN

      The fact that I'm in the conversation-

    15. SB

      Hmm.

    16. GN

      ... is extraordinary. Is it a reality? I don't know. I mean, that's, that's fate will determine.

    17. SB

      I, I, I totally understand that, but I, but I wanna just get clear on one thing, which is you would be honored to play the role as President of the United States if and when that opportunity called or presented itself?

    18. GN

      Yeah, I mean, I don't know about playing the role, but if it, if it, you know, if the moment meets you and you meet the moment, if you can express with congruency the why and you can do it without the pretense and the, you can do it with authenticity, and you truly believe that you add value-

    19. SB

      Yeah.

    20. GN

      ... against others that may be lined up, um, yeah. But, you know, I won't go through the motion. I don't need to be something to do something.

    21. SB

      Yeah.

    22. GN

      For me, it's, it's, it's, uh, it's... It, you've gotta, I mean, I gotta feel it. It's gotta be in my, my core, my soul. It's gotta be a burning need and desire to be accountable and to, to reflect the moment and reflect the aspirations and the dreams and, uh, of millions and millions of people and, and have enough confidence, uh, that you feel you can deliver in that respect.

    23. SB

      Do you think you could deliver in that respect?

    24. GN

      I, I... You know, increasingly, which is strange. I wouldn't have been... I don't know that I could've said that a few years ago. I mean that. I feel like things for me have radically changed, and we can get into why. I mean, I've gone through... They're, they're working on the seventh recall against me right now. I went through a recall process. I've been on the receiving end of a national effort to, you know, try to do everything to undermine what I'm doing and, and going up against Trump and Trumpism and, and the surround sound and these propaganda networks 24/7, I'm, I'm more resolved now. I mean, in an intense way. Ways I, I'm, I'm discovering myself in this process. I'm in the other side of where I ever expected to be, even a year ago. And, uh, I feel deeply accountable and deeply responsible and deeply motivated. I don't know where that takes me, but I know I have a responsibility over the next 18 months and I'm gonna run the 110-yard dash. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna run the 90-yard dash on the way outta here. And so that's, that's what I know. I got a sell-by date and I'm gonna put everything on the line.

    25. SB

      Let's get into it then in terms of your early context and your childhood because I think...You have to understand that to understand the person and the complexities of the person-

    26. GN

      Yeah.

    27. SB

      ... that I'm sat in front of today. So can you give me the specifics of your earliest context?

    28. GN

      You know, it, it, you know, I think shaped like so many people watching, I mean, how many of us (laughs) , over half of us had similar experiences of, uh, you know, um, a 19 year old who's pregnant, uh, with her firstborn, me, and a few years later, she's on her own with two kids. Uh, she came from no wealth, no real privilege. Her father committed suicide, was a prisoner of war coming out of, uh, World War II. She struggled with her own identity, her own confidence. Uh, she struggled raising two kids. Uh, my father, who left us, but not in disgrace, uh, who was an extraordinary figure, but an elusive figure growing up, and he sort of marked so much of my early childhood as sort of longing, trying to connect. But the, the anchor, the rock was this rock star single mom. And, and everything defines the best of me and the worst of me, this notion of grit, hard work, you gotta manifest, nothing's gonna be handed to you, um, is reflected in her. At the same time, a lot of the anxiety and, and, and fear, uh, a sense of, you know, I mean, sometimes loneliness. I mean, she was a very lonely person.

    29. SB

      Tessa?

    30. GN

      Yeah, Tessa. Passed away almost two decades ago, and, uh, I'm now older than she was when she passed away. And, and, you know, I just, I never fully appreciated her to the degree I do now, as a father, uh, as a mother struggling with not only herself, just trying to be a good mother, trying to have a career, a life, but also struggling to support her kids and support a kid, in this case, me, who was struggling in every way, particularly with pretty severe learning disabilities, with self-esteem, and, um, and never fully appreciated her sacrifice.

  3. 13:05 – 14:30

    Dyslexia

    1. SB

      find out you had dyslexia? 'Cause I, I read that your mother-

    2. GN

      She didn't, she didn't tell me. And I, I wonder, I, I think about this 'cause I've got a couple kids that are struggling and, and, uh, we made the mistake with one of them to tell him, "Yeah, I think you've got..." And now he uses it as a crutch and, uh, she never wanted it as a crutch. She never told me. She said... I found out about it, I was home early one day, came back from school and I, I, I don't know why, I ended up in her room and I'm looking, she's got a little desk and there's a file open and I'm, like, flipping through files and then I saw the word dyslexia. I'm like, "What the hell is this?" And I remember she got home, I said, "Mom, what is this?" And she goes, "Put that away." I'm like, "What, what is it?" She goes, "No." I says... And we had this conversation, she said, "I didn't really wanna talk to you about it. You've been struggling with it." I said, "I know I can't read and it's, you know, I'm stupid mom." And she said, "No, you're not stupid. We're working through all that." And she just didn't wanna give, create the stigma. She didn't want me to use it as a crutch, as an excuse. I think I, and I'm angry back to the sort of, you know, dialect of my own brain about good, bad. Um, I appreciated that because it was an excuse, not a victim. Decisions, not conditions determine our fate and future. This notion, um, that we can shape things. And I don't, uh, that I wasn't stigmatized in that respect so I can make excuses around it. I had to work around it, I had to work through it, and I think that was the path she, she chose and, and I'm many ways grateful that she did.

  4. 14:30 – 17:47

    Were You Bullied?

    1. GN

    2. SB

      Were you bullied by other children?

    3. GN

      Yeah. We had, uh, Baltimore Street, I told the president this too (laughs) . Speaking of Trump, uh, he, he, we were talking a few weeks ago and he goes, "Hey, this Newsom thing." You know, 'cause he calls me Newscum, Gavin Newscum. He goes, "Pretty original, right?"

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. GN

      I said, "Uh, it's not, Mr. President, it's not particularly original." (laughs) Uh, and he goes, "What do you mean? What do you mean?" I said, "Well, there were, there was, uh, the bully on Baltimore Street, uh, in Corte Madera, California used to call me Newscum." He goes, "Ah, hey, well, you know, whatever, yeah."

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. GN

      I said, "God, I mean he was 7, 8, or 9, you're 79, Mr. President." I told him that too and he moved immediately off on another topic. Uh, yeah, so we, you know, I was, I was the bowl cut guy, uh, the hair, you know, the, the Dutch boy look, you know, you remember? I don't know if you remember the old Dutch boy stuff, um, sort of American, iconic American brand, uh, and, and, uh, and it was easy to see (laughs) why I might have been bullied.

    8. SB

      I've got a picture here of you looking-

    9. GN

      Oh, look at me. Isn't that, isn't that great? So you get the haircut.

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. GN

      You get the vibe. This is, uh, this is my father trying to insert... So Irish Catholic family, my dad went to, uh, uh, uh, Catholic schools and so by definition I went to Catholic school. My mother, who loved the sailor outfits, knee-high black socks. Uh, yeah, you're likely to get bullied (laughs) going on the bus.

    12. SB

      It's not the best cut, but we've all, we've all had, we've all been on a journey with our haircuts.

    13. GN

      It's good.

    14. SB

      When I hear your story and, and the context you grew up in with, with your mother, with the bullying, with the challenges at school, um, with the dad that's away, and I know the stats around young boys that grow up in particular that don't have a father figure in ho- at home. That, for me, that's a perfect recipe for, like, s- small T, maybe big T trauma in some capacity. Later in your life you talked about having, uh, challenges with alcohol.

    15. GN

      Yeah. Oh, yeah. No.

    16. SB

      And I wondered if that, if that, that picture, that's part of the same picture, which is putting the mask on, various forms of escapism.

    17. GN

      Yeah. No, 100%. Well, look-

    18. SB

      Medication.

    19. GN

      ... I mean, my, my, my grandfather that took his life was, was an alcoholic, um, and my mother struggled a little bit and it was more self-medicating. For me, I started discovering that as well. Of course, look, I got in the wine business.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. GN

      So I, I was immediately attracted to the business side of it. Opened a wine store right out of college, opened a number of restaurants, had seven or eight restaurants, have four wineries as I speak today. So wine became ubiquitous in my life. It's also my connection back to my dad, which is a whole another journey.

    22. SB

      And you started that business in 1992, which was the year I was born, and as I, as I... (laughs)

    23. GN

      (laughs) Don't rub it in. (laughs)

    24. SB

      Yeah. As I sit here 32 years later, the business still exists. You've placed it into a trust.

    25. GN

      It still exists and, uh, it grew about, there were twenty-two or -four businesses at peak, about 1,000 employees at peak came from that one business. I was the only full-time employee for almost two years. Yeah, man, I'll tell you, just the greatest training for politics and life, just opening your own business, small business, and, uh, those were some special days. And, uh, and went from that to a restaurant up the block, uh, a few years later, a hotel, a winery, now four wineries. Uh, we had five or six restau- uh, hotels and nine restaurants at peak and business is still

  5. 17:47 – 22:26

    Principles Learned From Starting Your Own Business

    1. GN

      around.

    2. SB

      I was reading that you had this sort of scheme where you gave employees $500 for a Magical Moment award.

    3. GN

      Well, it was a failure award.

    4. SB

      A failure award.

    5. GN

      And then it became, my sister took over 'cause I had, I got into politics and, uh, she said, "I don't like this failure framework." I said, "Well, it's, it's the be- I love failure."... I'm good at it. Dyslexics are the best at it.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. GN

      Like, I mean, w- there's nothing linear about our lives. It's fail forward fast. You miss 100% of the shots you don't take.

    8. SB

      So you were giving employees $500 to f- if they failed?

    9. GN

      Well, I had a, yeah, I had a great... Uh, just a, a very brief example. I had a, so I had a little hotel up in Squaw Valley, L- Lake Tahoe area, and a lot of mosquitoes during the summer months. It's an old motel built for the Winter Olympics, the 1960 Winter Olympics. Built in 1959 for the delegates. Was supposed to be torn down. It sorta patched together and we, we, we held it together, but it had no air conditioning. So you'd keep the doors open, you'd keep the windows open, but in the summer, the mosquitoes came in, drove the guests crazy. So we had this night clerk, you know those crazy night clerks come then, and he was gettin' complaints all the time about the mosquitoes. And he, on his own, decided one day to go, before he went to work, get in at 11 o'clock at night, and he bought a bunch of catfish at the store.

    10. SB

      Why?

    11. GN

      'Cause there's a bunch of ponds around the business and he figured that's where all the mosquitoes are starting. So the catfish will eat the larva the, of, of, of the mosquitoes and he'd solved the problem. So he just, on his own, decided to buy a bunch of catfish, dumped 'em in the ponds all around the hotel. Well, about 4:00 in the morning, this engineer calls me, gruff guy, he says, "The raccoons had a feeding frenzy and ran through the hotel, 'cause the doors were open, with a bunch of, you know, flying fish in their, their mouths and fish everywhere." And Ludo said, "You gotta fire that son of a bitch. This goddamn idiot." And I started laughin'. Went up there the next morning, met with him, and I said, "This is magical that you tried to solve a goddamn problem."

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. GN

      And we created the Failure Award and I gave the biggest screw-up every single month a bonus, and at the end of the year, we'd put 'em all together. January screw-up, February screw-up, and we'd have the Failure Of The We- Uh, Year Award. And did that for years until my sister said, "We'll call it the Magical Moment Award." But it was about initia- initiative, taking initiative, taking responsibility, taking ownership, trying new things, seeing what works, iteration, entrepreneurial mindset. It's not linear. It's thinking creatively outside the box. It's what a dyslexic, by definition, has to do, and that's what I thought a, a successful business needed to do. And it literally empowered... Our employees loved it, 'cause they felt seen and heard. All-

    14. SB

      And safe, I guess.

    15. GN

      And safe, because they were like, as long as they do it with... You know, no one's jumping off cliffs here. We're not encouraging, you know, recklessness, but risk-taking. And it literally allowed the business not just to survive, but to start to thrive in ways I couldn't ever imagine.

    16. SB

      I, I think that's really important. It's just such an important lesson to so many business owners, especially in these changing times where everything's moving so quickly in AI and technology, that most people are incentivized just to business as usual.

    17. GN

      Mm-hmm.

    18. SB

      You know, protect our position if we're successful or, you know, to prolong convention or whatever that might mean. But businesses that adopt that approach clearly have an edge in these rapidly-changing times.

    19. GN

      Yeah. No, and, and look, I mean, it, back to just... You know, I, I remember th- there was a, a book Tom Peters wrote called The Pursuit of Wow. I mean, if there was one book that just, just hit me in the core, that sort of expressed everything I wanted to become. He talked about hire the smile, train the skill, uh, about finding these superstar leaders, and developing owners with your leadership team, that they, you know, he talked about... I remember the Ritz-Carlton at the time, gave literally cash to the folks that were cleaning the rooms and gave them the ability to use the cash as needed to solve a problem for their customers.

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. GN

      They created ownership with frontline employees that were undervalued or devalued. He talked about, I remember, diversity as a business essential. With all the anti-woke, anti-DEI stuff we're dealing with in the United States of America, I mean, from a business perspective, there's a business imperative to advance diversity. But it was, it was Peters decades ago that really created that mindset for me in the business, diversity broadly defined-

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. GN

      ... uh, in every way, shape, or form. And so the business became this sort of, the pursuit of wow, of awe, of surprise, of iteration, of, of daring, energy. So the core ideology just kept growing in that space. Restaurants, hotels, wineries, and audacious, adventurous people, uh, that wanted to sort of build a brand, build something that was special. It wasn't about money, it was about pursuit of meaning and purpose,

  6. 22:26 – 31:56

    Why Did You Leave Business to Enter Politics?

    1. GN

      moments.

    2. SB

      So why did you leave that and do politics?

    3. GN

      I know.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. GN

      There was a pho- Two things happened. I got a phone call. I was running the wine store, closing it up, doing bookkeeping, accounting, you know, my... The warehouse was in my apartment. Um, one night right before I'm closing up, this guy runs in, um, to the store and... A very nervous guy. And he's like, "Can, can you help me? Uh, what's a good champagne? Just n- I gotta get a call." He's like, "Thank you." Put it away. I'm like, "It's good." He goes, "Can you wrap it?" I said, "Yeah, I got it wrapped." He says, "Thank you, man." About 30 minutes later, the guy comes back. I'm like, "Oh, damn." Like, "I screwed up or something." But he's got this girl with him and he's knocking on the door and I open the key back up. He comes in and he goes, "Just wanna introduce you to my fiancee." And I said, "Wow." He goes, "Well, your champagne, I just asked her to marry down the block at the Palace of Fine Arts."

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. GN

      "And we love the champagne and I just wanted to say thank you. You were so nice to me."

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. GN

      I remember literally sitting there crying after he left. Like, that's everything. That, this is like... This is, this is, this is business, man.

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. GN

      It's not a transaction. It's relationships. Talk about moments. Magic, man. That's, that's it. To your point, I thought, "This is it. This is my bliss. This is... I'm gonna just keep doing this forever." And then I got a damn call from the mayor of San Francisco.

    12. SB

      Can I just ask you on that question? When that guy came in with his fiancee, why was it so meaningful to you? I can literally still see the emotion in your face some 20 years later.

    13. GN

      (laughs) Because what I did had meaning. It mattered in a way I never thought. I thought it was a transaction.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. GN

      I thought he was buying something and I was selling something. Wasn't that, man.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. GN

      It was, it was marking a really important moment in his life. Business changed after that. It wasn't business.It was just, it was, it was a different proposition.

    18. SB

      Then you get a phone call.

    19. GN

      And I get a phone call and, uh, screwed everything (laughs) up. Willie Brown says, "Hey, you've been, you know, you just opened this store and, uh, you know, I've been reading, you were complaining, getting those permits, it was taking too long and-"

    20. SB

      Who's Willie Brown?

    21. GN

      Willie Brown, the mayor of San Francisco.

    22. SB

      Okay.

    23. GN

      Former Speaker of the California Assembly, one of the most dynamic, one of the most extraordinary politicians in California history, I would argue American history, and I don't say that lightly. Some of the world's great leaders will identify Willie Brown as one of the most transformative political leaders. And, uh, and so there's a couple of articles in the paper about me bitching about permits and parking or something, and he calls me and goes, "Newsom, it's Willie Brown." I'm like, "Oh, Mr. Mayor." He goes, "Hey, come on down next Wednesday, I'm gonna put you on the film commission." I'm like, "This is amazing. I'm gonna be on the film commission." I'm 20-something years old, got a wine store, about to open a restaurant, uh, I was working on and now he's putting me on the film commission. I go down to city hall that next Wednesday, it's a group of 20 or 30 people, he's swearing a bunch of people into commissions and he says, "And Gavin Newsom," you know, opened a wine store down the block, blah, blah, blah, goes, "The new chair of the Parking and Traffic Commission." I'm like, "I thought I was going on the film commission." Literally didn't tell me or anyone. I didn't even know what chair meant, and all of a sudden, 26, 7 years old, I'm now the President of San Francisco's Parking and Traffic Commission. He just randomly put me in that position. Inspiration, desperation. I didn't know what the hell I was doing and that was how my political career began, literally that phone call, that appointment, not to film, but parking and traffic, and, uh, that marked a, a pretty significant moment in hindsight in my life.

    24. SB

      And that was a pivotal moment in your, your trajectory, 'cause you were on course to continue being an entrepreneur probably for the rest of your life.

    25. GN

      Yeah. Yeah.

    26. SB

      By the looks of things.

    27. GN

      I could've been somebody.

    28. SB

      (laughs)

    29. GN

      Jesus.

    30. SB

      So give me the whistle stop between that moment when he places you in this role to here. I know, I know whistle stop is a tough word to use to describe that journey, but what is the whistle stop to you?

  7. 31:56 – 37:07

    Your Mayoral Race and Your Mum's Diagnosis

    1. GN

      political life.

    2. SB

      When I overlap the dates here, you, you, in your mayoral- mayorial race in 2003, um, your mother was getting- was sick in the-

    3. GN

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... years- in the lead up to that.

    5. GN

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      She was diagnosed with breast cancer.

    7. GN

      Yep.

    8. SB

      So you're contending with the woman in your life who's clearly had the most impactful role on shaping who you are and being there for you when the odds were against you and when no one else was. In the lead up, and it's as your sort of political career starts to accelerate, she is suffering with breast cancer.

    9. GN

      Yep. And also suffering with her son being in politics. She did not want me to go in politics. In fact, the, the biggest regret she had is that I was walking down the path that my father was interested in that led to their divorce in the first place. He pursued politics and lost in two elections for state senate and for county supervisor, ironically the seat that I held. Lost both races, was in debt, was humiliated, defeated, said he had a breakdown and left. That's when they got divorced. And she saw me walking down his path, and she lo- loved seeing me in, in business. She ended up working for me as our bookkeeper, and she saw my passion in the business. She said, "Why the hell you get in politics? Don't do this to yourself." And she literally n- on near of death bed said, "Just please, don't do this. Don't, don't keep doing this." She was really upset that I ran for mayor. Something I think about, you know, there, there are days where I'm like, I go, "She told me so." You know, when you're sitting there facing a recall, and you're like, "Told you so."

    10. SB

      A recall for anyone that doesn't know is...

    11. GN

      Oh, they just, you know, in the middle of, you know, you get a four-year term and two years later they say you, and they get a petition and try to get rid of you. And, uh, I faced that just second time in a half century in California. I, I defeated it overwhelmingly. But that was a hell of a thing to experience and to see the nationalization of that recall. I mean, the, the entire Republican Party came out to try to take me out politically. And you think about y- what your mom said (laughs) , like, she may have been right.

    12. SB

      When did you realize that your mother wasn't going to make it with her breast cancer?

    13. GN

      It was when it, it... She, she went through... So often is the case, she fought back, it was in remission, and then boom, it hit again and it metastasized, and it was... And she did, it was, uh, I'll tell you, this I will never, ever, ever, ever recommend for anyone, and this is just my own personal experience. She called me, left a voice message. Imagine getting this voice message. I was very busy doing all this stuff and obviously not attentive enough to her when she was making the point. She goes, "Hi honey, it's your mother. I know you haven't seen me in a while, but next Thursday I won't be around, so you may wanna come next Wednesday because it will be my last day." Literally left a voicemail like that. I called my sister, I'm like, "What the hell is this?" She goes... She's crying and she said, "She just told me she's gonna do an assisted suicide because it's so bad." She left a voicemail. And so that next week, I was there, my sister and I were in her room. Doctor comes in, gives her some what turned out to be OxyContin. I remember, like, early on, like, "What are these pills?" She had to take those an hour before he got there. She takes them, God is my witness we're going through fucking photos like this, man. It's all she wanted to see, all the old photos of us growing up. And we're sitting there on, my sister on the left, I'm on the right, my mom there, took these pills, waiting for the doctor, and she's going through all these old photo albums of us growing up, talking about these moments. Yeah. Come on, man. So, yeah. And, uh, but wanted to be there for her. Doctor comes in and administers and she starts gasping. My sister runs out, the doctor had already left, and I was like, I... She's gasping for air and I'm just sitting there and holding her hand as she's (gasps) and her last breath. And, uh, I just sat there. My sister had no one walked in, I felt like, for days. It felt like hours, but it was just probably 10 minutes before someone finally came in. Just sitting there with my mother who passed away and, uh...... not realizing that moment, what it represented, what it ultimately meant. Uh, I regret, that was hard. I don't, being there for an assisted suicide, uh, by the way was proud, we changed the law in California. That was probably done illegally. I don't even wanna know, and if you wanna come after me, come after me. Um, she needed to do it. She was in so much pain, suffering. Now it's legal to do that, but it wasn't at the time when she did it. Um, and, um, so that was a, that was a moment. And, um, you know, that was, and, you know, just became mayor. It was back to just making stupid mistakes, man. You know, you're brand new mayor, you're overwhelmed, you're trying to figure yourself out. You lose your mom, no excuse. Um, was in a marriage that was going south. You know, it was a, it was, you know.

    14. SB

      What did she say to

  8. 37:07 – 43:34

    Being With My Mum Through Her Assisted Dying

    1. SB

      you when she... I had no idea that you sat there as sh- she was administered the-

    2. GN

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      ... drugs that took her life.

    4. GN

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      What were those conversations? What do you say to someone in such a si- situation where it's the last conversations you're having?

    6. GN

      It was, um, you know, you, you say the perfunctory things, you know. Just, "Do you know how much you meant to me, how much I love you." .......................... And she, um, she, all she cared about is, "Just don't forget me." She said that. That was the last words she said. "God as my witness, don't forget me." Fuck. And, uh, and one of the things I'm most proud of, my sister, we started through Our Plump Jack, we started a foundation, um, so every year, we raise money to cancer research in my mom's name. And, uh, and we've never forgotten her. And, uh, but she was someone that could've easily been forgotten, man. Um, she's just, you know, sacrificed everything for two kids, but she, you know, l- she left us her character, experience, no money, nothing. I mean, she was just... She struggled her whole life and, uh, just gave it all to us. And, uh, so, you know, those are... And we all have people in our lives like that, what a gift. And, uh, you know, I was blessed.

    7. SB

      Were there any words unsaid? Sometimes once people have moved on and you mature as, as an adult and a man, you re- you see things differently and you...

    8. GN

      I mentioned the, earlier, being perhaps way too candid. I imagine (laughs) after this is over, my folks going, "What the hell were you..." You know, who cares? Life's too short. Um, but when I said, you know, when she talked about being average, I, I didn't confront her on that. That just, that was for me, perhaps more than her. It wasn't about me, this moment. It was about just, you know, it was so important for her to walk through all these memories and again, that's what it's about, man. It's memories, moments.

    9. SB

      When-

    10. GN

      It's about nothing else.

    11. SB

      When you were later, you win the race to become Governor of San Francisco, do you think about her? Do you think, do you wish she could've seen-

    12. GN

      Oh, come on. Yeah. I, I wish she could see my four kids.

    13. SB

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    14. GN

      Come on.

    15. SB

      Yeah.

    16. GN

      I got sworn in as Governor of California, and my wife's there and we had a three-year-old. He's got his pacifier and he's got his blanket. And he, in the middle of my speech, runs up. I'm giving the speech, stressed out. Again, I don't read speeches, and so it was a read, I had to read. So I'm like, "I can't look because I'm gonna lose my sight on the, on the teleprompter." And my son runs up. My wife was nervous to run up on stage because it was like, this is a big damn deal. And he comes right up, grabs me, and everyone kind of, like, is moving around the audience. I'm like, "What do I do?" And I, like, just instinctually lifted him.

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. GN

      And he put his head right on the side and started to fall asleep. And I read the speech with my son. No one remembers a damn word I said. I don't remember a word. Everyone remembers what it felt like. All I thought about at that moment, if my mom was around to see that. Wasn't the governor. It was, uh, it was the parent. And, uh, yeah, sorry man. It's, uh, unbecoming. Forgive me, but that, that, uh, I wish, I wish she was around for them.

    19. SB

      Why?

    20. GN

      'Cause it's, uh, well, I wish I could thank her for being a, an extraordinary parent. I never did. I told you I took her for granted. I never knew how hard it was until I had my own kids, but I, I think she'd be so proud of, of, uh, of, uh, of our, you know, of nine-year-old Dutch, 15-year-old Montana. I think she'd be proud of me in that respect. I think she wanted me to be happy. She wanted me to be a good husband. I got this incredible rock star wife, Jennifer. I got these four unbelievable kids, man. Just fill me with joy. Um, I struggle to be a better parent, husband, politics, str- you know, but, um, that's all she wanted for me.

    21. SB

      When you're in the public eye, um, as I guess I kind of am now because people watch me a lot.

    22. GN

      Big time, man.

    23. SB

      Um, it's, there's al- always this balance between what people see, which is a very two-dimensional thing, which is what people see of me, and then there's the, the, the imperfect messy home life, which I contend with every single day.

    24. GN

      (laughs)

    25. SB

      Like, even on the way here this morning, I'm like, "I'm gonna be late for Gavin New- Gavin Newsom because my girlfriend's having, like, period cramps." And I'm like, "I don't wanna leave my girlfriend, but I need to go. I'm gonna be late." And I'm, like, trying to, you know-

    26. GN

      Yeah.

    27. SB

      And then we had the alarms going off in the house, and then there, all the lights flicker 'cause we just moved in, as you know, and then the... Ah, just craziness, and then you look at my phone and there's business problems and then there's f- my f- my family problems are going on, and- and then I come here.

    28. GN

      (laughs)

    29. SB

      And I interview you.

    30. GN

      (laughs) I'm sorry. (laughs) I feel like I got in your way. (laughs)

  9. 43:34 – 47:52

    How Did You Mess Up?

    1. SB

    2. GN

      Yeah, I just, I, I, I just, I got, I, I didn't, I wasn't situationally aware. I wasn't emotionally mature in terms... I remember a good friend of mine, Mimi Silver, who's just a rockstar, got my, just, just got my act, she, she is the one who got me to get my act together. She goes, I s- she goes, "You're the mayor in San Francisco." I said, "Yeah, I know." She goes, "Well, then start acting like it." I said, "What are you talking about?" I said, I said, "I, when I go on, I don't need to be in the front row." She goes, "You need to be in the..." I said, "I don't need to, I don't like being in the front row. I don't like, I don't need to be right..." She says, "The fucking mayor. And you'll be in the front row, and you'll have people watch you in the front row because that's what they want from their mayor." And I'm like, I remember her saying this, I'm like, "What?" I just said, he's like, "No, I'm good." She says, "It's not about you." I said, "Well, no, I don't need that. I don't need to... I like the job. I don't, that's, that's not part of the job. That's the pad, that's, like, the press conference side, like, I don't..." And it was such a, she literally had such a... I remember that, I remember-

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. GN

      ... sitting there with dinner with her at Delancey Street when she said that to me, and it sort of hit me in the core. There was, I, there was a lack of maturity. That I, I was just the entrepreneur that happened to be mayor, and I, this is ironic based on our conversation, needed to play the role a little bit more than I was. And I needed to mature, and I needed to get my act together, and I, you know, and that I went through a process. There was a couple years there, a year where, you know, a lot of things happened all at once, and I was able to get through it, get reelected.

    5. SB

      What were those things that happened all at once?

    6. GN

      Well, I mean, divorce, you lose your mom, divorce, dealing with a new job, dealing with high profile decisions that became very national. All of a sudden, I'm, you know, punching above my weight as a, a young elected official in ways that I, not many people didn't necessarily imagine. Marriage quality issues being one of them, other things that I was involved in. To your point about drinking a little too much. Um, and after the divorce, making some stupid mistakes that, uh, that I owned up to and regret, and, uh, having to work through all that. I mean, these are, you know, it's around this time, you know, and, um, you know what I could tell this kid?

    7. SB

      What would you tell him?

    8. GN

      Get your shit together.

    9. SB

      You're referring to e- an extramarital affair, which you owned up to.

    10. GN

      Yeah. I wasn't married, but she was, and, um-

    11. SB

      Yeah.

    12. GN

      ... and I, it's funny, I, I, I've got a, a little, um, memoir that I'm putting out, ironically called Young Man in a Hurry next year.

    13. SB

      Yeah. I love the title.

    14. GN

      Uh-

    15. SB

      Can relate as well.

    16. GN

      That I'm very, you know, I reflect on that and dive deeper in a very self-critical way, and I hope very honest way, and I hope people can appreciate that. Um-

    17. SB

      I think people will, because I think every normal b- human being understands that they too are imperfect. And especially when life takes hold-

    18. GN

      Yeah.

    19. SB

      ... and you're growing and you're learning, we all make mistakes. I've made mistakes and expect to make a lot more.

    20. GN

      Yeah.

    21. SB

      But I think it's in the admittance of those mistakes and acknowledging them that that's where we, uh, that's where we find out who we actually are.

    22. GN

      Yeah.

    23. SB

      You know?

    24. GN

      And I, yeah, humiliated, humiliated.

    25. SB

      I had no knowledge of any of this stuff, but, so when you say humiliated, I-

    26. GN

      I just humiliated... My dad, uh, he said something, and I'll tell you, it carried forward with me. He told me at the time, uh, he was so disappointed in me, and he said, "You go home with the one who brought you to the dance." Fuck. And that was the impact I had on one of my friends that I, you know, because of that very, and I don't, this is not away, just, like, the shortest, it wasn't even a relationship, it was like just, just some stupid stuff. And, um, and I've just tried to, you know, and the fact that we are friends today is, like, really important to me, like, one of the most important things, like, to sort of reconcile, and that's been really, um, profoundly important as part of a journey. Uh, but yeah, I let him down, I embarrassed my dad, I embarrassed myself. I wasn't myself, and, um, I had to get my shit together. And, um, and did I, just the drop of the dime, I mean, back to just Mimi Silver, just a rockstar, and she told me, you know, I remember she said, "You're coming over to see me tonight and we're gonna fix this."

  10. 47:52 – 49:00

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    1. SB

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  11. 49:00 – 52:28

    What's Going On With Young Men?

    1. SB

      At that age, you were a very young man. I mean, you still look, look like a young man now.

    2. GN

      God bless you, brother.

    3. SB

      Um, but, uh, the, uh, young men are in particular s- have a s- particular set of struggles in the modern world, and you've used certain words that sort of parlay into that. You've used the words purpose and meaning.

    4. GN

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      And if we look at some of the stats around h- how young men are doing in the country, it's not great.

    6. GN

      Yes.

    7. SB

      And even y- even young boys are doing terribly across the world for a variety of reasons. And when we think about the political climate and what's happened in this last election cycle and how young men are voting increasingly for a certain set of ideas, what, w- what, what do you think is going on with young men and what is the solution or answer that will lead them to a better outcome?

    8. GN

      You know, I'm really proud that my wife, um, who's been a real leader, she's r- done a half dozen documentaries. She did one that was particularly well received called, um, uh, Misrepresentation, about the mis- and disinformation around women and girls. She followed it up, uh, two years later, w- in 2015, uh, with a documentary called The Mask You Live In about masculinity. In 2015, she was highlighting all the things, the trendlines a decade ago that are headlines today-

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. GN

      ... as it relates to the crisis of, of boys and men, and she was noting the suicide rate. She was talking about, you know, deaths of despair. She was talking about educational attainment. She was talking about all these issues that were, uh, uh, uh, next level crisis, and it was so ahead of her time in so many respects. And, and she's come back to me on that over and over again, particularly with our two boys and their maturation versus my two girls, uh, and the relationship we have to our deeper understanding of how men and, uh, and, and, and girls and women and boys are different. And, and so this is code red in this country, around the world increasingly, and if it was happening to any minority group, particularly in my party, the Democratic Party, we'd be all over it. Instead, we've been timid about it because men have this sort of hierarchical, uh, uh, benefits in society that go back hundreds and hundreds of years of men are really struggling. Really?

    11. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    12. GN

      You know, men still dominate in all these key positions of power and influence, but when you see all what's happening underneath, it is a crisis. And as a consequence, the Republican Party, Donald Trump in particular, and I think some respects what's happening in this sort of manosphere, and I don't mean that pejoratively, but in, you know, there's been not an exploitation, at least there's a recognition and a relationship to it that has attracted a lot of young men that are seeking meaning, purpose, and mission. And as a consequence, it's also been weaponized, uh, particularly by one party in a way that I don't think is ultimately beneficial or positive. Our party needs to own up to that and we need to address these realities. Uh, Richard Reeves is doing amazing work on it. Scott Galloway's doing amazing work on it. So many folks in this space, uh, you know, uh, uh, uh, Cats been doing it de- decade ago talking about it. But Democratic Party, my party, needs to own up in this space. And just so I'm not, you know, accused of preaching and not practicing, I've worked for the last six months on an executive order that we're about to release in this space that goes to issues around education. You can't be what you can't see, and a lot of these kindergarten, elementary teachers, most of them are women, and so about recruiting more men, uh, to become teachers, focusing on caregiving, focusing more broadly on very intentional interventions to begin to address this crisis.

  12. 52:28 – 55:26

    What Did the Democratic Party Get Wrong About Men?

    1. SB

      The Democratic Party, I think it's fair to say, most certainly played their hand wrong in this regard, and, uh, the word played is obviously, again, ki- comes loaded, but, but very much, uh, I think, I think t- so some k- I think people could fairly say to some degree turned against or misunderstood men is a probably a better way of saying it, misunderstood the plight of men and boys. And the, the Republican Party, I think the message that they offered, although there's shades of, you know, behavior or, um, narrative that is not productive, at least spoke directly to men.

    2. GN

      100%. We didn't.

    3. SB

      What do you think the Democratic Party got wrong as it relates to appealing to young men? What's the narrative that the Democratic Party projected but sh- shouldn't have?

    4. GN

      I think, uh, there was just deep, uh, lack of empathy-

    5. SB

      Yeah.

    6. GN

      ... care, any compassion to what was going on, this, this, uh, a- and, and, and recognition, even deeper understanding. I think it's still something, I still have conversations with folks and, and people are very uncomfortable in my party talking about this, particularly members...... of, of my party in leadership positions, particularly women, that just feel like, "Come on. We just went through Me Too, we're struggling with gender inequality, we still don't have equal representations in all the CEO positions, and obviously we're struggling in legislatures. Uh, we continue to have this glass ceiling we can't break and what more proof do you need than Kamala Harris and, and, uh, and Hillary Clinton. Uh, we don't even get paid for, uh, the same amount as, as men and what the hell are you talking to me about the unique plight and challenges of men." And then you start saying, "Well, there's going to be two to one graduates coming from our UC system here in California in the next six years." They're like, "That's not true." And, and then they see the deaths, women, and they go, "Oh, I didn't realize that." Or-

    7. SB

      Two to one women graduating versus men, yeah?

    8. GN

      Yeah, I mean, we're on that track.

    9. SB

      Yeah. Yeah. And-

    10. GN

      I mean, we're moving down that path.

    11. SB

      Same in the UK.

    12. GN

      You see the suicide rates are just off the chart. You see the deaths of despair, meaning overdoses, off the charts. And you see all of these indexes of unhappiness and loneliness and isolation. You see, I mean, Scott, it's been just, he's the best.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. GN

      I mean, talking about what this means in terms of just the inability for, for boys to ever become men, to be caregivers, uh, to be those warriors. To have, you know, to, to be, uh, those role models. To even have the, have the masculine traits of just real, being able to be engaged in a real relationship as opposed to attached to some notion of a relationship, online porn or something. And so I, it's a comprehensive strategy that needs to be engaged. And for me, politically, it's, as I said, it's code red. Not just the substance, the morality of it, but also the politics attached to it because the other party has weaponized this and it's, it's multicultural, it's multiethnic. It's not just, uh, it's not just white male, uh, grievance that's being expressed

  13. 55:26 – 58:33

    How Would Things Change If You Became President?

    1. GN

      in this space.

    2. SB

      If and when you become president in 2028 or another year-

    3. GN

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      ... how is the attitude towards men going to shift and what are the practical ways that you get there?

    5. GN

      I mean-

    6. SB

      Towards y- you know.

    7. GN

      Well, I, I don't think you wait for that moment. I think we have to shape that moment. I think we have to take responsibility. We have to take account and we have to have a sober... First of all, we have to have a deeper sober reflection on why the hell Democratic Party is at 27% in polls just a few months ago. I mean, it's a toxic party in terms of its brand.

    8. SB

      Why?

    9. GN

      Uh, exactly. We need to understand that. I can give you 25 theories, but-

    10. SB

      C- can you give me in super? 'Cause I'm not a politician so I don't understand a lot of the political talk. But, like, uh, that is staggering.

    11. GN

      Yes.

    12. SB

      And, and why did it happen?

    13. GN

      Yes.

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. GN

      Thank you.

    16. SB

      No, but when... (laughs) That's the question. Why did, or how did it happen?

    17. GN

      That is why it's one of the reasons I started my own podcast.

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. GN

      It was part of that exploration. Again, back to humility and grace, two words I'll use over and over and over again. Seek first to understand before you're understood. I listened to all the punditry hours after the election results.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. GN

      And everyone was an expert. I'm like, "That's amazing, you're an expert? It was Israel for sure?" "No, it was inflation for sure." "No, it was interest rates for sure." "No, it was incumbency, uh, for sure." "No, it was, uh, it was woke for sure." It was, "No, it was trans for sure." Everyone was for sure. They knew exactly what it was. I'm like, "This is amazing. Everyone just knows what's going on." Meanwhile, I'm like 20 pages in, writing this down saying, "Oh, it's about loss of man- Oh, no, it's about the, the man as- No, it's about Bi- It was about Joe Rogan. We didn't go on Joe... Oh, for sure. Uh, it was about she, oh, she didn't, you know, she didn't say this or she didn't... It was The View for sure. She could've separated from Biden. No, it was the, it was the ki-" And, and then I'm like, "Well, wait a second. I, I need to really understand this more fully." Well, you know. Uh, and so that became my own journey back to the entrepreneur, the inno- and trying to iterate and deciding to get some folks that I vehemently disagree on, uh, with, on my, uh, on a new podcast, Charlie Kirk. 'Cause, you know, for sure he was successful in convincing a lot of young men to turn out in record numbers for Trump.

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. GN

      I wanted to learn about that, back to this notion of success leaves clue- clues. I want to pick his brain. "What are you doing right, man?" Show some humility and grace as it relates to, uh, not trying to be argumentative in, in the interview. Just, I'm trying to pick... I wanna know why you're so successful. That offended a lot of people, bold statement.

    24. SB

      What did you discover?

    25. GN

      Uh, there, he's got a plan. He's executing a plan. He's got a strategy. He's got a date that he's identified with a goal attached to it. Uh, he's got a dream with a deadline. He's there in places people don't expect him to be. He's meeting with folks without any filter. He's willing to confront people he disagrees with and, and agrees with. He's willing to be out there on the field. He's, he's organized a construct and he's been very deliberative, building a sense of community. And this notion of community, we all wanna be connected to something bigger than ourselves is a whole big part of this as well, part of the MAGA movement. And particularly w- with people feeling disconnected, you're naturally gonna wanna find your way back to something bigger than themselves that sort of moors you and gives you a sense of purpose and, and meaning

  14. 58:33 – 1:02:13

    Inviting the Opposition to Your Podcast

    1. GN

      as well.

    2. SB

      And when people are lost, they do go s- in search of someone who resonates with them and someone who speaks directly to their, their plight.

    3. GN

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      And I, my observation as someone that's not an American, when I think about someone like Charlie Kirk versus Kamala Harris, it's the absolute opposite approach.

    5. GN

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      K- Kamala Harris, lots of people say she avoided going on Rogan, she wanted him to fly to... She wanted Rogan to fly to her. She was gonna give him a tiny sh- short time window. It was probably gonna be a bit sanitized in all, all respects. And then Charlie Kirk sits on campuses across the US and has students come up and ask him any question.

    7. GN

      Yeah.

    8. SB

      And his response is... He shows you his response, to his credit, and he, um, is, doesn't care about sanitization or being politically correct.

    9. GN

      Correct.

    10. SB

      And he puts it on YouTube for hours and hours and hours and hours. And I think in a glass box world, where we get to see inside now because of technology, the black box approach where your PR team paints, paints, tries to paint an image on the outside is over.

    11. GN

      Mm-hmm.

    12. SB

      And we saw it in this election cycle. And you're doing, you're leading the ch- I have to give you credit, you are leading the charge there because I, I can't think of another key political figure globally who has started a podcast where you literally invite the other side on. So-You're doing, I think you're playing the glass box approach.

    13. GN

      I pret- I love the way you described that, and I, I, everything you said resonated with me. Um, had Steve Bannon on-

    14. SB

      Yeah.

    15. GN

      ... which, uh, is, uh, just, you know, itself was interes- Look, um, the, these folks exist and persist. You can deny it, my party can deny it at its own peril, back to your point about what the hell's happened to my party. And so trying to understand that, trying to unpack that. But, you know, it's interesting just, I think, you know, Kamala's an old friend of mine, I don't wanna get into Kama- And I say old friend and people roll their eyes in politics, people say, you know, old frenemies or ant- frenemies, it's not... But we, we go back before we were both in politics. We both share that Willie Brown, the former mayor, in common in terms of a relationship that we both had. Uh, and as a consequence of the relationship we had with him, uh, we were able to get to know one another as sort of this cohort. And, um, and I, I, I think a lot about, you know, what we've just gone through, I wish, I'd love to see Kamala-

    16. SB

      I would have loved to see. I mean-

    17. GN

      ... on your show. I'd love to see her-

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. GN

      ... picture of mom and dad. And I know her as well or, uh, better than most.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. GN

      But I would love to see that side of her. I would. So this notion of, what'd you say, glass box?

    22. SB

      Glass, glass box versus black box.

    23. GN

      Black box.

    24. SB

      Yeah.

    25. GN

      Uh, hey, uh, I'm on here for a reason.

    26. SB

      Yeah.

    27. GN

      I just, you know, it's like I'm out of any excuse, look, you are who you are, and, uh, let it, let it all out there. And I think people, I, I, I, I think we claim we belong for authenticity. I still mostly believe that. Sometimes I question that 'cause people want you to be your authentic self, but they're like, "Well, don't swear as much." Or, "Be your authentic self, but don't be so emotional." Or, "Be authentic self, but..." There's a but.

    28. SB

      Yeah.

    29. GN

      Uh, but I think at the end of the day, I think we're, we've crossed that. I think we're on the other side. People just want more of you. Whoever the hell you are.

    30. SB

      Yeah, regardless of what it is. Because even, the crazy thing I, I observe about Trump is even the imperfect things he says that would once upon a time have revolted some people and would have had adverse reactions, uh, l- the fact that he's willing to say them creates the impression in my mind that I know who he is.

  15. 1:02:13 – 1:05:32

    Immigration

    1. SB

      you know, you, your team didn't tell me this, your team didn't give me any parameters, they didn't say, "You can't ask him about this. Don't talk about this." There was no parameters.

    2. GN

      Yeah.

    3. SB

      At least people will know who you are.

    4. GN

      Yeah. And I think most people don't. They see me as sort of in a slick guy that, you know, was, like, they think I was, grew up, uh, with a trust fund, everything was handed to him. People don't know my entrepreneurial background. I don't think they, they, they, they, they believe what they, they may have seen on Fox News out here or so, you know, One America news and the weaponization of that. And so, you know, he, I just, it's critical I think for our party generally, I think for both parties now, just, you've just got to get out of that bubble. I give Trump, to your point, credit in that respect, in every way, shape, or form. You can criticize him for many things, you can't criticize him for accessibility, uh, for at least appearing to be authentic in terms of his approach, his willingness to confront and engage, and I, I think that's very refreshing.

    5. SB

      How do you think America's doing?

    6. GN

      I think we're struggling. Our identity, I think we're, um, you know, Trump has made it f- made us feel free to shove again. It's not our better selves. Um, you know, the, the sort of Jon Meacham language, you know, the soul of America is, is, is, is struggling. And I really worry about our institutions, I worry about our democracy, I worry about neighbors turning on neighbors. Uh, people forgetting the universal truths that we all wanna be loved, we all need to be loved. I talked about everybody needing to be connected, we also need to be respected, and I think people are talking down to each other, ta- talking past each other. It's again, why I want a platform of people I disagree with. I let a Newt Gingrich on, former Speaker Gingrich, who led my recall effort against me. You know, I just, I'm trying to f- just find some balance in that respect 'cause, you know, there are good people that vehemently disagree with us. Uh, I don't know that it benefits any of us to, uh, to demean or belittle folks. That's my thing with Trump. He attacks vulnerable communities. My mom hurt what her real early indelible inspiration for me in terms of one of those two, three jobs she had, wasn't just working as a waitress and doing the bookkeeping, but she worked for aid to adoption of special kids with the DeBold family that had kids with intellectual and physical, uh, disabilities. And I remember w- spending time with these kids. And I hate bullies. I, I mean, forgive the word hate. I know it, I just, I dislike, I hate bullies. I don't like people demeaning other people, I don't like people scapegoating, escapegoating vulnerable communities. My why is standing up for ideals and striking out against injustice. It defines nine out of ten things for me, personal, professional. Standing up for ideals, striking out against injustice, and it's just to me unjust to see people demeaned and belittled, and to use, uh, to see vulnerable communities used as pawns, to talk about, you know, alligator whatever in, in Florida and talk about immigrants in dem- demeaning, uh, ways, and they have to zig and zag, uh, if they wanna avoid getting killed by an alligator or something, or mocking people with disabilities. Uh, that's where I, that's where I get, that's where I stand firm. And, uh, right now, my biggest fear, you asked about how our, where our country is, I feel like Trump has opened that Overton window in a way, uh, that I'm very concerned about our ability to get back to find our better humanity.

    7. SB

      Who does

  16. 1:05:32 – 1:12:40

    Who Does Trump Care About?

    1. SB

      Trump care about?

    2. GN

      Himself, period, full stop. It's not complicated. He doesn't, he doesn't care if he's the heel or the hero, as long as he's the star it's, I mean, it's, uh, and that's just, uh, anyone that's spent time with him, I've spent time with as much or more than any Democrat, certainly any Democratic governor in the country, period, full stop. I did it through COVID my, his first term and certainly even in the second term.

    3. SB

      And what surprised you?

    4. GN

      Nothing. What surprises me now is that he's a very different guy than he was in the first term. He's, um, there's no limits now. It's, there's a megalomania there.

    5. SB

      Megalomania?

    6. GN

      He feels no limits now, and you feel that in every way. He can say and do whatever the hell he wants and there's no oversight, there's no advice and consent, there's no co-equal branch of government. The Speaker of our House of Representatives completely abdicated that. The question is, do the courts hold up? Or we the people? And, uh, I'll tell you and, and we're celebrating our 250th anniversary of the Founding Fathers, the best of the Roman Republic, Greek democracy and, and, uh, you know, this notion of, of system of checks and balances, popular sovereignty, and, uh, I think it's, uh, it's on life support now. And I don't say that lightly. I say that very thoughtfully, and I say that as a guy that's watched the President of the United States not send military in his first term or his first six months anywhere in the world except to an American city where there was 5,000 military in the streets of Los Angeles. A war within. So I say this very soberly and mindful of the moment we are in American history.

    7. SB

      Do you think he wants to see you fail?

    8. GN

      I think he wants to take me out and down at the same time. I think he enjoys the sparring with me. I think he, um, I think he thrives on it. I know he does.

    9. SB

      'Cause he calls you Gavin Newscum-

    10. GN

      Yes.

    11. SB

      ... but then meets with you privately.

    12. GN

      Yeah.

    13. SB

      And what are those meetings like?

    14. GN

      Uh, unbelievably cordial, unbelievably. I'm, it drives people crazy when I say this, but I'd be lying if I didn't say it. Every time I have a conversation, including the, the night before he "federalized" the National Guard, we had an unbelievably good conversation and we were going back and forth. He said, "Use this cell phone. Keep, keep calling me on this cell phone directly. You need anything, call me. You need anything, call me." Which is an amazing final statement as I hung up, only to read eight hours later, uh, that Newscum, I read him the Riot Act, which he never did, completely made, 100% made it up, and then federalizes the Guard. Um, it's a, it's a game. It's a show. It's a dangerous game, and it's a very exhausting show, and it's becoming derivative and, uh, and more dangerous.

    15. SB

      Isn't this just how politics goes in America?

    16. GN

      Shouldn't... No, it shouldn't. Look, I used to have my beef with George W. Bush, George H.W. Bush. We'd, we'd have our beefs on the other side, uh, Republicans certainly with Clinton or Obama or even Biden. Longed for those days. University, I'd go in the office of Ronald Reagan's old office, Governor Ronald Reagan. That's my old office in, as governor of California. I mean, you know, his, his last speech in the Oval Office, his last speech was about the life force of new Americans, Lady Liberty's torch, our better angels. I mean, what happened to that Republican Party? Um, and, uh, this is different. This, there's darkness.

    17. SB

      Really?

    18. GN

      Darkness.

    19. SB

      Because I hear this every election cycle.

    20. GN

      No, this is, this is dark... We're, we're only six months in.

    21. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    22. GN

      The vandalization that he's done to this democracy and institutions, I mean, eliminating oversight. I'm not just talking about a co-equal branch of government. Uh-

    23. SB

      What does that mean for the average person that doesn't know about this?

    24. GN

      It, it means there's no... He's eliminated the inspector general's auditing capacity. He's going after, uh, these poli- uh, political opponents, removing them from key positions of power and influence and putting in, uh, acolytes, putting out people, uh, that just do his bidding. He's pushing the boundaries on the rule of law. He's threatening to recall not just people he disagrees with. He wanted my arrest. Remember, the president of the United States said Newsom should be arrested. They said, "On what grounds?" He got elected. Said he doesn't like the fact that his political enemy got elected. I mean, he's, he's not... He doesn't say that lightly. And, you know, o- once a mind is stretched, it never goes back to its original form. So every time he does this, he's sort of testing these boundaries. And this is what makes me more concerned. I'll give you a proof point. God as my witness, we're sitting here when we do this today on this podcast. We just, I just read this morning that Donald Trump was on the phone with the Texas legislature and they're going through a redistricting thing to basically get five more seats for the midterms because they're likely to lose the midterms and Trump is likely to lose power unless they can change the districts and rig the game so he stays in power.

    25. SB

      Do you think he's gonna try and stay in power-

    26. GN

      When people-

    27. SB

      ... beyond his term?

    28. GN

      ... close to Donald Trump, when people close to Donald Trump send the governor of California a hat that says Trump 2028, they're not fucking around.

    29. SB

      They sent you a hat saying Trump 2028?

    30. GN

      2028. They're not screwing around. I sat in the Oval Office for 90 minutes with Donald Trump, first Democratic governor to do that. And he was, looked, and he looked around and said, "Hey, see who's behind you." I said, I looked around the pictures and, like, FDR and I literally turned, I'm like, "Oh, seriously?" He goes, "Yeah," goes, "What do you think, three terms, four terms?" I said, "Oh, come on." And then he just starts laughing 'cause he's-

  17. 1:12:40 – 1:16:42

    Trump and Election Fraud

    1. SB

      This is not just another, you know, president comes in, they do a bunch of changes, a bunch of executive orders, and then they, they leave in three and a half years?

    2. GN

      He tried to stay into office. He called the elections chief in Georgia and asked, "I just need a few thousand votes." He wasn't fucking around. He was not joking about that. He was dead serious about that. And had they found that, he would have rigged his own election. You seri- what more evidence do you need? He's quite literally... They're so concerned about taking over the House now, Democrats, we're on path to do it. They have to re-rig the game. And you think if they don't take back the House of Representatives, they won't move from some form of voter suppression the likes of which we've never seen in this country? Threats of martial law? What do you think this whole experiment with 5,000 military, weeks and weeks and weeks doing nothing, by the way? They're sitting in the armory. They're doing nothing. They're there for show, but he's pushing the boundaries of what they're capable of doing, testing the courts and the Constitution. That's for a larger purpose. And I'm not trying to be, you know... I'm not trying to be ma-... I... It may not be intentional purpose yet, but they'll place an opportunity to utilize the lessons learned here today to extend their reach and power tomorrow. And I very much, yes, I worry about our democracy in three and a half years, and I worry about that election if they maintain their power in the House of Representatives. I'm that deeply concerned, dead serious.

    3. SB

      On the balance of probability, do you think it's likely Trump will stay, try and stay in office in 2028?

    4. GN

      On the balance of probability, no.

    5. SB

      No, okay.

    6. GN

      But I can see a scenario, but not on the balance of probability.

    7. SB

      Okay.

    8. GN

      And that's on the basis of one thing, time of life.

    9. SB

      Oh, okay. He's-

    10. GN

      If he was 69, not 79? Look, he, uh... This is the great grift. He's, he, he did what he never did in the first term. He played in the margins. He was able to take advantage of his brand and his businesses and make a few bucks here and there, but not the money he's making now. I mean, the crypto, everything he's doing, I mean, I mean, the kid's now selling cell phones, the whole thing, monetizing everything, coming out with new brands and new plan... I mean, he, it... He finally is doing what he didn't do the first term, is now, is he's President of the United States, but now he's gonna make a fortune. So when he's no longer president, he'll have a $400 million plane that has a billion dollars of upgrades on it that will be donated to the foundation that he can use for the rest of his life, thank you to the Qataris. He will have billions and billions of dollars. He'll make the vast majority of his wealth in just a few years as President of the United States. He will set himself up in that respect. He'll have hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars of excess campaign cash that he'll be able to use for whatever luxurious lifestyle he ever needs. And I imagine that may satisfy him as long as he gets his person in to replace him so they can continue that grift going forward.

Episode duration: 1:52:54

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