Alex O'Connor and Dr. K: Why a meaning crisis is breaking us

1. 0:00 – 2:32

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      Nine in ten young people in the UK believe that their life is lacking purpose, and a lot of people are turning back to religion. There is something going on.

   2. GKGreg Koukl0:07

      This is about the most important thing that anyone could ever find out about their life, and God has made us for a purpose, and the purpose flows from that meaning.

   3. AOAlex O’Connor0:15

      I kind of reject that 'cause this is a perfect example of a solution being provided without explaining exactly why it provides a solution, and that's what people are doing in religious traditions.

   4. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)0:25

      I hard disagree. For me, finding meaning and purpose is, like, a very practical thing.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:29

      And that's what I wanna talk about today.

   6. NANarrator0:31

      We are joined by an atheist, Christian, and spiritual thinker...

   7. SBSteven Bartlett0:34

      ... to find an answer to the purpose crisis millions are facing today.

   8. GKGreg Koukl0:38

      One of the reasons that I'm a Christian is because it's the best explanation for the way things are.

   9. AOAlex O’Connor0:42

      But if Christianity were true, we would not expect the kind of suffering that is present in the world.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett0:47

       So, I'm very curious, what if I died f- from cancer at one years old?

   11. GKGreg Koukl0:50

       So, someone violated God's commands and that had an impact on the world.

   12. AOAlex O’Connor0:54

       So, children get cancer because a few million years ago-

   13. GKGreg Koukl0:56

       Yeah, well-

   14. AOAlex O’Connor0:56

       ... someone ate a fruit. If you want religion to provide existential comfort for people who are suffering, you have to do more in the face of children dying of cancer than some reference to mythical human beings.

   15. GKGreg Koukl1:06

       But if your worldview does not have a way of making sense or our moral intuitions about suffering, it's not an adequate worldview.

   16. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:13

       What I would say that science and spirituality can really add is it's effective in terms of reducing suicidality, improving resilience, giving them a reason to wake up in the morning, and we'll get into that.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett1:23

       And Alok, if someone's listening now and they feel lost in their life, is there any advice that you could give them?

   18. AOAlex O’Connor1:27

       So, as an atheist, I'm offering a psychological explanation, so I would recommend that they (censored) .

   19. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:32

       You're spot on, Alex. So, the first thing to understand is it is an internal feeling. We found in our study that if you (censored) , your sense of purpose increases by 68%.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett1:47

       Alok, Greg, Alex. The reason I wanted to speak to all three of you today is to discuss meaning and purpose, and there's some stats that I wanted to share that kind of frame the discussion. Three in five young Americans believe that their life lacks purpose. Nine in ten young people in the UK believe that their life is lacking purpose. And when I look across other stats as it relates to things like mental health, 59% of Brits said they lived a meaningful life compared to just 25% who said they did not. In an October 21 survey, 34% of men in the UK said life had no meaning compared to 18% of women, and 50% of the same group who said that their lives lack purpose and meaning said that their

2. 2:32 – 3:53

   Why Are People Drawn to Your Mission

   1. SBSteven Bartlett2:32

      poor mental health was linked to not knowing what to do with their life.

   2. GKGreg Koukl2:35

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett2:36

      And to give some further stats, which I found really interesting, around the rise of religiosity, in the UK, a belief in God amongst 18 to 24-year-olds has risen from 18% in 2021 to 37% in 2025, according to YouGov. And in the UK, monthly church attendance has risen from 4% up to 15% in 2025. There is something going on-

   4. GKGreg Koukl2:57

      Hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:58

      ... and that's what I wanna talk about today. But before we do that, I'd love to understand the perspective that all of you bring to this conversation. So, if I start with yourself, Alok.

   6. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)3:07

      You know, it's, it's interesting, you mentioned a lot about mental health. I'm a psychiatrist. So for me, finding meaning and purpose is, like, a very practical thing, so literally a patient will come into my office, they'll say, "I have no reason to live. There's, there's noth- nothing worth it in life. I am suicidal, I want to kill myself." So, I have a job as a clinician to, like, fix that problem in a very, like, practical way. So I've got, you know, a couple of weeks, hopefully 15, 20 weeks, to teach them how to find purpose. And so usually the way that I approach that is there's, there's a lot of sort of evidence-based scientific approaches to finding purpose. I think those tend to work really well, but I'm, I'm sure as my philosopher colleagues will, will point out and tear me apart, you know, science

3. 3:53 – 5:29

   Alok's Perspective and Experience

   1. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)3:53

      has a lot of shortcomings. And so then what I, I tend to find works incredibly well is adding a certain degree of spiritual practice to that, and usually when we put those two things together, things work. And th- the real proof point for me was when I started streaming, 10,000 people reached out to me in one month asking, "Hey, like, do you have room in your private practice?" And so I started to think about, okay, if this is a methodology, then can it be taught? So I started this coaching program and what we found in our pilot study of 1,453 people is that if you stick with the program for about 20 weeks, your sense of purpose increases by 68%. I'd love to hear from my colleagues, but I, I think, you know, if someone asks me, "What is the meaning of life?" I, I don't know. But if someone says, "I have no meaning. Can you help me with that?" The answer is absolutely yes.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett4:42

      Mm-hmm. And I want to attempt to just define two terms that you said there. One is purpose, and it doesn't have to be a perfect definition, but roughly what you mean by that, and then you said you introduced spiritual practice. What did you mean by that?

   3. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)4:54

      So, what I think about is purpose is, uh, using something called factor analysis. So if you ask someone, "Do you have direction in life? Do you have purpose in life? Is there meaning in life?" all three of those things cluster together to some thing. Even being in control correlates with that, so if you are in control of your life, your sense of purpose will increase. So there are a lot of these, like, words that we use, but all of these words tie back to some internal sense of what is happening in your life. So, that's how I would des- uh, describe purpose. In

4. 5:29 – 8:01

   What Is Purpose and Spiritual Practice?

   1. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)5:29

      terms of spiritual practices, what my experience is is that if you look at human beings who say they have purpose and human beings who don't have purpose, their lived experiences in life are different. So when I work with survivors of trauma, they have certain experiences, like literally we can scientifically sort of measure this, you have a particular experience which destroys your sense of meaning in the world. I had a patient once who was attacked in a bathroom for about five minutes, and-... in five minutes, this person had a sense of what they were doing in life, was dating, was doing well in college, had loving parents, and in five minutes, their compass for navigating the world was shattered.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett6:10

      Hmm.

   3. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)6:12

      So if we sort of think about experience can lead to a loss of purpose, experience can also lead to a gain in purpose. Now, the spiritual tradition that I come from is all about particular practices that evoke certain subjective experiences. And as people have those experiences, their sense of purpose increases. And this is where I think there's a major shortcoming of science. So science can tell you what you should do, but it doesn't create experiences in and of itself, right? So we can scientifically understand that the highest risk factor for pornography addiction is having no meaning in life, but even if we know that, that doesn't help us, like, fix the problem, and there's always a question of how. Like, so we can discover something with science, but then there's a question of how do we actually, like, move from point A to point B? And that's where I find spiritual practice is incredibly helpful.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett7:06

      Mm-hmm. Would you classify yourself as religious? Or s-

   5. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)7:10

      Yes, I think so.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett7:12

      Okay. Gregg.

   7. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)7:12

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett7:13

      What is the perspective you bring to this conversation and what's the, the lived experience, the academia that, um, lends itself to that perspective?

   9. GKGreg Koukl7:21

      Yeah, there's a whole bunch of that fitting in and I relate to a lot what you're saying, uh, Alok, about people's challenges. Now, what's interesting to me about this whole discussion, since I'm a Christian, uh, and I understand the world from a theistic perspective because I think it's the best explanation for the way things are-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett7:39

       Just to give a definition to that, um, theistic, what does that mean?

   11. GKGreg Koukl7:43

       A personal God.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett7:44

       A God.

   13. GKGreg Koukl7:45

       There is a personal God who is involved with the world. He made the world and He still maintains activity, as opposed to deistic which just wound up the clock and let it go, okay? So m- my view is God is still involved. In fact, so involved that He actually came to Earth

5. 8:01 – 9:45

   Greg's Perspective and Experience

   1. GKGreg Koukl8:01

      in the person of Jesus of Nazareth to create a rescue plan. Now what's interesting to me about this broader question, we can get into more details too, is that it's not, if there is a God who made the world for a purpose with meaning, people can participate in that meaning and purpose even if they don't know God. They're not, they won't be experiencing what they were made for which is to be in friendship with Him, with the plan that He's made for their flourishing, but they still can flourish in some measure insofar as they touch on these objective features. But insofar as we are able, even without belief in God, to kind of get in that groove of the things that God made us for, the purposes that He intends, in light of being made like Him in some way in His image, there's gonna be a measure of satisfaction, but what they'll be missing is, is the ultimate and that is that friendship with God and being restored in that.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett8:55

      Alex.

   3. AOAlex O’Connor8:56

      Yes, sir.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett8:57

      Same question for you about your, what you bring to this, uh, conversation in terms of your perspective, your experience, and s- maybe some of your sort of personal journey.

   5. AOAlex O’Connor9:05

      Well, for, for my own part, I was quite swept up in the new atheism movement, uh, which was a mid-2000s publishing phenomenon with the likes of the Dawkins and the Hitchens of the world saying that religion is evil and terrible, and I think promising an alternative, a kind of secular humanist utopia that if you'll only throw off these oppressive religious systems, you will regain your spiritual autonomy and be able to assert yourself and the intrinsic meaning that you have within yourself. People tried that and it didn't seem to work, uh, and I think that's because the new atheist movement was quite philosophically shallow. It didn't seriously engage with the existential

6. 9:45 – 13:01

   Alex's Perspective and Experience

   1. AOAlex O’Connor9:45

      component of religious belief and why it exists in the first place, and I think that is why it exists. I think humans are in a strange predicament. Due to the mystery of consciousness, we find ourselves possibly uniquely amongst other animals in a position of being mortal, being physically embodied, being in a world, but also knowing those things. And it's one thing to experience the world, it's one thing to be, it's another thing to be aware that you're experiencing it. Uh, Josh Rasmussen once said, "There's a difference between noticing a tree and noticing that you've noticed a tree."

   2. SBSteven Bartlett10:20

      Mm-hmm.

   3. AOAlex O’Connor10:20

      We have this sort of second order of abstraction that we can do. So we know that death is coming, for example, and death makes a mockery of everything that we do, it seems to just obliterate any sense of purpose or meaning because anything that we're building will ultimately, as far as we're concerned, be gone, and that may well be unique to human beings. And so I'm not the first to suggest that the principle motivating factor behind meaning-infused activities that humans do is an engagement in death denial or some kind of immortality project. People literally, for fear of, as a result of the knowledge that this will come to an end, engage in what we might call immortality projects. They engage in things which will outlast themselves which give them a sense of escaping this death. The most obvious example is in religious traditions which literally promise immortality for your own soul, but if you look just practically at where people subjectively report finding meaning, they find it in their children. They might find it in their job, but they're unlikely to find it in their job if they're doing something they don't really care about. They'll find it in their job, maybe they're a, maybe they're like a barrister and they find a lot of meaning in bringing justice into the world because they're participating in a system which they believe will outlast them and is bigger than them. So when people talk about meaning, we talk about transcendence, you know, something being above and beyond their own sort of material, uh, situation, and I think religion is the, is, is the, the archetypal example of this and I think it's why it evolves in the first place.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett11:54

      Mm-hmm.

   5. AOAlex O’Connor11:54

      There is this idea that we are living in a meaning crisis that has cropped up maybe in the past 100 years or so, or maybe in the la- last few hundred years or so as a response to the Enlightenment and the decline of religion. I think that's far too easy. I think that's way too easy. I think that...... if there is such thing as a meaning crisis, it is literally the human condition-

   6. GKGreg Koukl12:13

      Mm-hmm.

   7. AOAlex O’Connor12:13

      ... and the reason why these projects were invented in the first place. I think literally speaking, what people are doing in religious traditions is realizing the finitude of their existence, and therefore trying to commune with something-

   8. GKGreg Koukl12:25

      Can I add a thought to this?

   9. AOAlex O’Connor12:25

      ... less finite. Of course.

   10. GKGreg Koukl12:27

       We have this hunger, and I, I have no reason to believe that any naturalistic explanation can explain the consciousness's hunger for meaning and significant, 'cause that's all propositional. It's not molecules in motion.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett12:43

       What's naturalistic mean?

   12. GKGreg Koukl12:44

       Naturalistic just means nature, and that's all there is basically. So you have, uh, molecules in motion, largely governed by natural law. There is no outside transcendent anything, there's no immaterial anything, certainly not an immaterial God

7. 13:01 – 17:29

   Is Meaning Necessary?

   1. GKGreg Koukl13:01

      that has started the process and sustains the process and gives life meaning. There either is meaning objectively or not, okay? If not, then it's up to us.

   2. AOAlex O’Connor13:13

      For example, a moment ago you said that if there is a creator God who brings us into existence then you are designed, and you are given purpose by God. And I think we need to investigate this a bit further.

   3. GKGreg Koukl13:26

      Mm-hmm.

   4. AOAlex O’Connor13:27

      Because, for example, uh, a quite sort of boring and overdone debate at the moment is the extent to which we are engaged in the production of potentially artificially conscious agents-

   5. GKGreg Koukl13:38

      Mm-hmm.

   6. AOAlex O’Connor13:38

      ... with artificial intelligence technologies. And there's all this discussion about whether or not these things can be conscious-

   7. GKGreg Koukl13:44

      Mm-hmm.

   8. AOAlex O’Connor13:44

      ... like, you know, whatever. Let's just suppose for a moment that they were. Let's suppose that I created an artificially intelligent machine and I gave it a purpose, and that purpose was to produce paperclips. And because of the development of artificial intelligence technology, it became conscious in a recognizable sense. It had an interior sense of self, it sort of had, say, feelings or emotions about the world, but it is just an AI robot whose entire purpose in life is to make paperclips.

   9. GKGreg Koukl14:13

      Mm-hmm.

   10. AOAlex O’Connor14:14

       Now, I could say that because that AI was designed by a creator with a purpose that was explicitly given to it that that life is meaningful, but I think it would seem to most people that a life whose meaning consists in creating paperclips is not sufficient-

   11. GKGreg Koukl14:30

       Mm-hmm.

   12. AOAlex O’Connor14:31

       ... is not enough to address what people really want. It's not just some kind of purpose-

   13. GKGreg Koukl14:37

       Yeah.

   14. AOAlex O’Connor14:37

       ... it's not just even some kind of purpose which is given to you by an authoritative creative source-

   15. GKGreg Koukl14:42

       Yeah, so can I respond?

   16. AOAlex O’Connor14:42

       ... it's something which is further than that. Yeah, but if I can just relate this to the God question-

   17. GKGreg Koukl14:47

       Okay.

   18. AOAlex O’Connor14:47

       ... the problem that arises is that you have to answer the question of why God infuses life with the meaning that he gives it.

   19. GKGreg Koukl14:53

       Mm-hmm.

   20. AOAlex O’Connor14:54

       It's either something which he has sort of arbitrarily plucked up and, and chosen to create-

   21. GKGreg Koukl14:58

       Mm-hmm.

   22. AOAlex O’Connor14:58

       ... in which case we have this problem of arbitrariness. Or no, or in fact there is some reason why God had to give us a particular kind of meaning that's endemic to the human condition-

   23. GKGreg Koukl15:08

       Mm-hmm.

   24. AOAlex O’Connor15:08

       ... that he had no choice but for that meaning, that more important kind of meaning to be given to human life.

   25. GKGreg Koukl15:13

       Yeah.

   26. AOAlex O’Connor15:13

       But if he was beholden to that, if he had to give us a particular kind of meaning, it seems like there's a standard of meaning which exists outside of-

   27. GKGreg Koukl15:20

       Right, right, I get that.

   28. AOAlex O’Connor15:20

       ... outside of God. So, I'm not sure, in other words, the mechanism by which being created by someone who says, "This is your purpose," would be fulfilling-

   29. GKGreg Koukl15:29

       Mm-hmm.

   30. AOAlex O’Connor15:29

       ... in the way that people want it to be.
8. 17:29 – 18:58

   What's the Point of This Conversation?

   1. AOAlex O’Connor17:29

      given purpose by being designed in, in a particular way. We're gonna get together and we're gonna have a conversation and see if we can figure out this, this meaning stuff, right?

   2. NANarrator17:37

      Awesome.

   3. AOAlex O’Connor17:38

      And by the way, like, we're not gonna solve that problem. I think it's worth pointing out that, like, these conversations have to be exploratory and subjective. If anybody thinks that the four of us sat at this table are going to solve the meaning crisis and give people a five-step guide finding meaning in their life and that will be the sort of case closed, then they're delusional.

   4. NANarrator17:55

      I, I don't know if I, I agree that we can't find an answer, but we'll talk about-

   5. GKGreg Koukl18:00

      Well, this is what I wanted to speak to. It, it, if, um... Obviously, we're talking about this broader issue of meaning and purpose, all right?

   6. AOAlex O’Connor18:07

      Mm-hmm.

   7. GKGreg Koukl18:07

      And as I mentioned earlier, there either is an objective one or it's only subjective, okay? If it is an objective one, this is about the most important thing that anyone could ever find out about their life, if they were created for a reason-In my view, the reason I'm here is because I'm convinced that that's the case and I'm willing to give reasons why. Okay? But I don't think... I, I'm sympathetic to the concern that you can't sit around a table and in two or three hours solve the problem for any individual. Because people going through the process of trying to figure these things out, it takes a long time as they put the pieces together. But I think there's a lot of people in the world that think how they have put it together and they've come to conclusions about ultimate meaning and purpose. And they don't come to my own conclusions, but many have. So what I would hate to do is to leave people with the feeling like we can all search and the glory is in the search, but

9. 18:58 – 36:59

   Can Humanity Find Its Purpose?

   1. GKGreg Koukl18:58

      if you think you've found the answer, then you haven't.

   2. NANarrator19:00

      Mm-hmm.

   3. GKGreg Koukl19:00

      Of course, this to me is a nihilistic enterprise then.

   4. NANarrator19:03

      Mm-hmm.

   5. GKGreg Koukl19:04

      I think it's possible to come to conclusions.

   6. NANarrator19:06

      Yeah. So-

   7. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)19:06

      I think so too, to be clear. But I think, what I'm, what I'm trying to say is this will be something that one will experience for themselves-

   8. NANarrator19:11

      Mm-hmm.

   9. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)19:11

      ... and will discover for themselves in their own life. It's not gonna be something that... You know, there's that old, um, was it Linchi, the, the, the sort of the Buddhist koan that says, "If you meet the Buddha, kill him." The idea being that, you know, if you think that the kind of enlightenment which is necessary to spiritual fulfillment can be found through some kind of guru, um, you're missing the mark. It's something that you need to do for yourself.

   10. GKGreg Koukl19:34

       But isn't that statement itself meant to be a truth about spirituality that you can actually count on?

   11. NANarrator19:39

       Well-

   12. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)19:40

       Can I jump in? I just wanted to make sure I understand y'all's points. So, so you're saying that the search for pur- purpose, first of all, is never gonna go away. Like, is a human condition, right? Yes. So, ƒ, e, like, like so as humanity, humanity will never find its purpose. I can tell you why if you like. No, no. I, I don't need to know why yet. I think, I think individuals can.

   13. NANarrator19:58

       It's-

   14. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)19:58

       But humanity can't. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So that, that's what was... Yeah. Yeah. I, I, I'm just making sure I understand, right? So an individual can find their purpose, but as humanity it's never gonna be solved? And then you said something about purpose being tied to opposing to death in some way, so transcending death, that human beings basically look for purpose because death is inevitable, and if we can find purpose then we can give our life meaning. But if death, if we die and I don't leave something behind... Can you talk a little bit about that? This is essentially a, a version of Ernest Becker's Denial of Death- Okay. ... Hypothesis, which famously suggests that the motivation for a great deal of human behavior is, at least human behavior outside of immediate sensory concerns like eating and stuff like that, anything that humans engage in on a societal level, on an abstract level, is ultimately motivated by an apprehension of death. I think that's probably too simple, but it's definitely a contributing factor. I, I think that, for example, put it this way, right? Here's an example that comes from, I think his name's Scheffler, and he has this interesting thought experiment. Suppose, I don't know, maybe you're engaged in, in writing a book. Suppose you discovered, and this probably won't be the case for you because you believe in an afterlife, but suppose that you're an atheist for a moment. Suppose it were the case that you discovered that after you die, a meteor is going to come and wipe out all life on Earth. Everybody's going to die almost instantly after you do, but you'll be dead. So you will live your entire life as it was anyway, and suppose the rest of the world doesn't even know this is going to happen, but you're told this is going to be the case. Would that motivate you to write your book more or less? Most people say that it would seem a bit pointless now. Uh, what's the point now in writing this book? What's the point in, in having children if they're gonna die 30 days after I'm, after I'm gone? What, what's the point in, in doing any of these things? What will they still do? They'll still do the sensory stuff. They'll still eat, they'll still have sex, they'll still sleep, this kind of stuff. But the, the typically meaning, uh, laden activities of life, they would suddenly be demotivated to do. And it's an interesting thought experiment to give us some insight as to the fact that, well, maybe this means that at least in part- ... the motivation for these actions in the first place is that they will extend beyond our death. I agree with so much of what y'all say, and I also, like, hard disagree with some of the fundamentals. So let's say you have this example of like, I'm gonna write a book and then the world is gonna end 30 days later. Yes. And, and so you say... 'Cause a lot of what you're talking about is, like, what people say, right? Yep. So you'll say like, "Okay, so like people would say that this is a waste of time and I'm not gonna do it if the world ends in 30 days." Mm-hmm. And you're also saying people is a, is an everlasting thing are struggling with purpose, right? Mm-hmm. You're saying both of these things. So here's my question to you. If you tell someone, you know, you're writing this book. Let's say you, you, you write it and then you die 'cause we'll simplify the example. And then 30 days later the world ends. Let's take two people, one who says, "I'm gonna write it anyway." Mm-hmm. And one who says, "There's no point." Mm. Which one of those two people do you think has a greater sense of purpose? Probably the former. Absolutely. So this is the key thing. Purpose is absolutely... 'Cause I, I love that you're asking about mechanisms, and I think maybe that's what I can provide. Mm-hmm. I, I think that's, that's actually the answer, right? So i- it's not that people believe... And I think you're right, that the reason that this is a perennial problem is because most people do not live a life where they understand how purpose works. Mm-hmm. And, and what I think is really fascinating about sort of, like, this scientific clinical approach, like, if you ask me, "Can I help people find meaning and purpose?" I don't know. But if you ask me, "Can I help a person?" The answer is absolutely. And we have, like, particular scientific things, and this is where it's, it's really counterintuitive. So a, a big part of, like, finding purpose is doing particular things, and if you do those things the likelihood that you will increase your sense of purpose in life, which is another thing that's very counterintuitive to people... Purpose is not binary, it's quantifiable. It's like a scale. So if I were to ask the three of y'all, right, maybe let's, like, let's do this not thought experiment but this practical experiment. Do you know your purpose in life? Like, how confident are you that you're doing what you're supposed to be doing in life?

   15. GKGreg Koukl24:12

       How confident am I about the God part or that I'm doing the things that are appropriate?

   16. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)24:17

       The, the, how confident are you that you're doing what God wants you to do?

   17. GKGreg Koukl24:21

       Well, in that general sense, extremely confident, or else I wouldn't be doing it.

   18. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)24:24

       Perfect, right?

   19. GKGreg Koukl24:25

       Yeah.

   20. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)24:25

       So, Stephen, what about you, bro?

   21. SBSteven Bartlett24:28

       About 5 out of 10. (laughs)

   22. GKGreg Koukl24:30

       (laughs)

   23. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)24:30

       I knew it. Okay, right? So, Alex?

   24. AOAlex O’Connor24:33

       I don't wanna be difficult, but I kind of reject the grammar of the question.

   25. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)24:36

       Awesome-

   26. AOAlex O’Connor24:36

       Um...

   27. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)24:36

       ... reject away, bro.

   28. AOAlex O’Connor24:37

       I think it's what a logician would call an exponable statement, something which needs to be broken down. You asked do I know my own purpose. That assumes that there is a purpose to know. It, it's a bit like, the, the comparison I would give is if I asked you the question, the classic example in logic is, is, uh, is the King of France bold? Yes or no?

   29. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)24:56

       I, I can, I can rephrase my question-

   30. AOAlex O’Connor24:57

       Please.
10. 36:59 – 42:19

    Is It Important to Be Curious About God?

    1. SBSteven Bartlett36:59

       individual never, ever ... He would be the last person that you'd think would be religious. Got another friend, female, just over 30 years old, doesn't have kids, freelance, works at home, um, when I asked her what her meaning and purpose in life, she said to me she wants to get to having 200 plants, plants she can water. She names all of them.

    2. AOAlex O’Connor37:15

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett37:16

       She then told me a week after, she's in therapy because she feels lost and stuck in life. And so much of the central point why I've been motivated to have this conversation is, it appears to me, and I haven't nailed this hypothesis yet, that freedom, independence, be your own boss, the decline in people having children, the glamorization of, um, as you said at the very beginning, like, you know, do it yourself, do it your way, is failing people in some way.

    4. AOAlex O’Connor37:41

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett37:42

       And that actually, the push for independence w- was in some way some kind of lie. I actually also went through the same new atheist-

    6. AOAlex O’Connor37:49

       Mm.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett37:50

       ... baptism (laughs) -

    8. AOAlex O’Connor37:51

       Mm.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett37:51

       ... that you went through. And I read all those books at 18 years old, and two years, I was, I was debating dog walkers on the street about God, I was so-

    10. AOAlex O’Connor37:57

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett37:57

        ... such a staunch atheist. But I now find myself in a position where I'm almost back to being curious again.

    12. AOAlex O’Connor38:04

        Mm-hmm.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett38:04

        Because it feels like independence wasn't the answer.

    14. AOAlex O’Connor38:07

        Good.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett38:07

        So just wanted to refrain-

    16. AOAlex O’Connor38:08

        You should be curious, I think, yeah. I mean, I think people need task. I think that purpose is intimately tied up with the idea of, of task to fulfill. It's why people tend to find meaning in projects which are not completed yet. In fact, Pascal writes quite compellingly about this when he writes about boredom, and he imagines a, a gambler, someone who, who enjoys gambling, and says, "Well, why is this person gambling?" 'Cause they're doing this thing with the, with the chance of winning some money. Okay, so why don't you just give them the money? Just take the gambler and give him all the money that he could possibly receive without playing the game. And he won't be very fulfilled, even though he's getting ostensibly what he was trying to get. No, no, that wouldn't be fulfilling, 'cause he enjoys the, the gambling. "Okay," says Pascal, "Then let him play the game, but make it such that he'll never actually win the money, but he, he gets to keep playing the game. And he's not gonna be very fulfilled by that either. That's also gonna be completely pointless." And so Pascal noticed that what you kind of need to avoid boredom, and I suppose to, to imbue your life with, with purpose, at least in this analogy, is some kind of task to fulfill that you haven't fulfilled yet, that you don't know if you're going to fulfill, that you believe will bring you fulfillment when you get it, but you haven't got it yet.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett39:24

        Mm-hmm.

    18. AOAlex O’Connor39:24

        That's why I think religion does it really well, because it's the definition of something which you don't have now, which you can strive for, which, when you get, you believe will be, uh, will be fulfilling. Were you going to say something?

    19. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)39:35

        Yeah, so, so, so I, I love these examples, because a- actually, we know exactly what's going on in that thought experiment, right?

    20. AOAlex O’Connor39:42

        Mm-hmm.

    21. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)39:42

        So now there have been s- there are so many advances in neuroscience that we understand why people gamble, right?

    22. AOAlex O’Connor39:49

        Mm-hmm.

    23. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)39:49

        So we understand that giving someone money will satisfy a gambler in one of two cases, and I've seen this. I've worked with people who are professional poker players. Some people, their, w- what we describe motivation is actually, like, a dozen different things going on in your brain. So if you are a professional poker player, and poker ... And I've literally worked with professional poker players who had no meaning in life. It's so funny, I'm thinking about a particular person. And then, you know, achieved a certain financial goal. That's why they play poker.

    24. AOAlex O’Connor40:17

        Mm.

    25. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)40:17

        So if your motivation is that, "I'm playing poker because I am, I have a skill that I am using to get money-"

    26. AOAlex O’Connor40:24

        Yeah.

    27. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)40:24

        ... if that is your internal motivation, that is going to come from certain circuits in your brain. It's gonna come from places like your frontal lobe. Now, as Pascal pointed out, if you give the average person who gambles-

    28. AOAlex O’Connor40:35

        Mm-hmm.

    29. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)40:35

        ... money, what are they gonna do with it? They're gonna gamble more, right? So that means that th- their motivation is coming from something more closer to the nucleus accumbens-

    30. AOAlex O’Connor40:44

        Mm-hmm.
11. 42:19 – 42:51

    Is Modern Society the Reason for a Meaning Crisis?

    1. AOAlex O’Connor42:19

       such is meaning. If you have two isolated communities, one of whom says, "I just don't care. Whatever, man." No interest in having children, no interest in building societies, legal systems, constitutions, whatever the case, moral systems, none of it. They just don't care. Nihilists.... they're not even gonna have children. That society will die out. Another society which just so happens to perhaps delusion, li- i- in a, in an exercise of delusion, just develop this inexplicable feeling-

    2. GKGreg Koukl42:45

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AOAlex O’Connor42:46

       And of course, this evolves over time and starts with essentially the kind of random mutation

12. 42:51 – 51:25

    What Is Meaning and Why Do People Feel the Lack of It?

    1. AOAlex O’Connor42:51

       of ideas that works on the genetic level in evolution. They call it memetics when it's ideas rather than genes. The society which just ends up developing this idea that, "Actually, I can't quite explain why but I, I just have this drive towards building a-

    2. GKGreg Koukl43:04

       Mm-hmm.

    3. AOAlex O’Connor43:04

       ... society and engaging in legal justice and moral systems and kinds." They're just more likely to survive. So, we end up with this, with this sense, this, this drive within us that we can't explain and yet we have. So, imagine for the majority of our evolutionary history what it was like. Every single day you woke up and you did not know if you were gonna have a roof over your head. You didn't know if you were gonna have food to eat. You had to go out and you had to hunt it and you had to go and find it. Every single day, the game reset. And so, I would imagine that those lives were probably quite meaningful, at least in the sense that I don't think there will have been many existential crises-

    4. GKGreg Koukl43:40

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AOAlex O’Connor43:40

       ... on a day-to-day because the purpose was quite clear. And like Pascal's gambler, they had a task that they think will fulfill them when they get it and they don't know whether it's going to be fulfilled. So, what's happened today? Well, now we've been given the money without the game. We've got houses, we've got food, we can go next door and get some water, get some food from all over the, all over the planet, you know. Like, that's, that's it. That you've got the money without the game. So, what do people do in the modern situation when they find out their life is a bit meaningless?

    6. GKGreg Koukl44:09

       Mm-hmm.

    7. AOAlex O’Connor44:09

       They start intentionally doing things which are difficult. They start doing ice baths. They start exercising. They start going into a room just to physically exert themselves in order to sort of build muscle and whatnot, like, on purpose for its own sake. Why? Because today we've got the money without the game. So, people are going out and seeking the game without the money. They're going and doing the ice baths and the gym. Whereas a truly meaningful life is one in which you are playing the game in the service of getting the goal.

    8. GKGreg Koukl44:38

       Mm-hmm.

    9. AOAlex O’Connor44:38

       That is why I think that, you know, literally just seeking out those things, I think that there's a reason why they have a psychological impact. It's not as simple as just like, "Oh, well, if you go to the gym, you know, it, it releases endorphins and, and makes you feel good." It's like, let's think a bit deeper than that. What's actually going on? People are seeking out the game without, without the money. Crucially, I've talked about this as, as a death denying pursuit, right? The idea that the things that you engage in here, at least in terms of grand projects like religion and society, are even if just subconsciously an exercise in the denial of death.

    10. GKGreg Koukl45:11

        Mm-hmm.

    11. AOAlex O’Connor45:11

        What would that mean? It means that if you encounter other communities, if you encounter other traditions who just, just by their mere existence threatens the truth of your claims, those traditions subconsciously represent death. They represent nihilism. So, what happens in a society that develops the kind of telecommunication technology whereby every single day you open your phone and you are addicted to a process of scrolling through every seven seconds a new person with new ideas, with different beliefs from all over the world? Do you think that might have something to do with the meaning crisis that we find ourselves in? We're told that what's happened is that people stopped believing in God and now they're all depressed and upset and nihilistic. That's far too simple. You don't think it might have something to do with the fundamentally revolutionary change to our society that has been brought about-

    12. GKGreg Koukl46:02

        Mm-hmm.

    13. AOAlex O’Connor46:02

        ... specifically by telecommunication, by the ability to oftentimes unintentionally and non-consensually be confronted with traditions and people from halfway across the world that just remind you every single day, zing, zing, zing, every single day, that your truth is not the only truth.

    14. GKGreg Koukl46:21

        Mm-hmm.

    15. AOAlex O’Connor46:21

        That the transcendence that you've placed your trust in is completely subjective and personal and that someone over there believes something totally different and seems to be living just the same kind of happy life. That, I think, is why people are struggling so much.

    16. GKGreg Koukl46:35

        Yeah. Mm-hmm.

    17. AOAlex O’Connor46:35

        It's not just because they're atheists now.

    18. GKGreg Koukl46:38

        I, I have a lot to say about this. I'll try to keep it compact. By the way, just we are aware of all kinds of different options for us spiritually.

    19. AOAlex O’Connor46:46

        Yes.

    20. GKGreg Koukl46:46

        Um, that doesn't necessarily suggest that none of the options are actually accurate-

    21. AOAlex O’Connor46:51

        I agree.

    22. GKGreg Koukl46:51

        ... or that are, okay. So there seem to be an implication there.

    23. AOAlex O’Connor46:55

        I'm making a psychological case.

    24. GKGreg Koukl46:55

        And this is what creates kind of the angst because all we have is our own personal subjective point of view.

    25. AOAlex O’Connor47:01

        I think that's why people experience that. Now, of course, as a matter of truth you could say, for example, yourself you could say, "Yes, I'm constantly confronted by different religious traditions but I believe that Christianity is true. I think it has the best evidence and whatnot."

    26. GKGreg Koukl47:12

        Yeah. This is, this is even true in, in even in the scientific realm. You have-

    27. AOAlex O’Connor47:16

        Exactly. That's fine.

    28. GKGreg Koukl47:16

        ... all kinds of different ideas but no one wants to say just because there are so many different ideas to explain things that-

    29. AOAlex O’Connor47:21

        Yes.

    30. GKGreg Koukl47:22

        ... nobody can be correct on it.
13. 51:25 – 1:07:01

    The Problem of Consciousness

    1. AOAlex O’Connor51:25

       nothing to do with the truth or falsity of a worldview. You can then separately discuss the truth or falsity of the worldview, which you've then gone on to do with specific reference to the problem of consciousness.

    2. GKGreg Koukl51:33

       You really think it has absolutely nothing or it can be experienced apart from the issue of worldview?

    3. AOAlex O’Connor51:39

       I'm saying that if you're, if you're literally just try... I mean, if the question I'm asked is, "Why do people perceive a lack of meaning in their life?" that's just a question about-

    4. GKGreg Koukl51:47

       Mm-hmm.

    5. AOAlex O’Connor51:47

       ... their psychological constitution. That's just-

    6. GKGreg Koukl51:50

       Right.

    7. AOAlex O’Connor51:50

       That's literally a question about why they should feel a particular way.

    8. GKGreg Koukl51:52

       So, if a person was a total nihilist-

    9. AOAlex O’Connor51:54

       Yeah.

    10. GKGreg Koukl51:54

        ... didn't believe in anything, uh, was important, and then they were depressed and even suicidal, would you say there wasn't a link between that worldview and their feelings?

    11. AOAlex O’Connor52:03

        Yes, there is, but what I'm saying is that the link between that worldview and their feeling has nothing to do with the truth of the worldview.

    12. GKGreg Koukl52:09

        Okay.

    13. AOAlex O’Connor52:09

        You see what I'm saying? Like, it, it doesn't-

    14. GKGreg Koukl52:10

        Oh, yeah. I follow that.

    15. AOAlex O’Connor52:10

        Nihilism can be true, nihilism can be false.

    16. GKGreg Koukl52:12

        Right.

    17. AOAlex O’Connor52:13

        Nihilism can be an in- unintelligible concept. It can still be the case that that person's conviction is making them depressed.

    18. GKGreg Koukl52:19

        Mm-hmm. Agreed, yeah.

    19. AOAlex O’Connor52:19

        Right? In the same way that somebody could be a, be a Christian and that makes them really happy, that doesn't mean Christianity is true. Someone can become a Christian and become really depressed. That doesn't mean that Christianity is false. What I'm trying to point out, it is, it is just trivially true. (laughs)

    20. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)52:31

        So, so I, I still wanna try to understand a little bit about what you're saying.

    21. AOAlex O’Connor52:35

        Okay.

    22. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)52:35

        (laughs) 'Cause I don't fully follow.

    23. AOAlex O’Connor52:37

        Fine.

    24. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)52:38

        Um, and I think that the reason I'm, I feel way more confident in what you're saying is because-

    25. AOAlex O’Connor52:44

        Christ is pulling at your heartstrings.

    26. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)52:46

        100%, yeah. So, so I think Chri- we both talk to Christ, so, like, we're good on that. Like, I, I know where He's coming from. So, c- c- couple of things that I'm-

    27. AOAlex O’Connor52:55

        I talk to Christ too, you know?

    28. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)52:56

        Awesome. Does he talk back?

    29. AOAlex O’Connor52:57

        He does not talk back, unfortunately.

    30. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)52:58

        Yeah, that's, that's tricky. We can talk about how, how to get you there.
14. 1:07:01 – 1:25:50

    How to Find Meaning

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:01

       what would you prescribe him? What would you recommend? What would you suggest? A- as he's your friend.

    2. AOAlex O’Connor1:07:10

       It's hard to know without knowing that friend. But if it seemed to me like going to church or reading the gospels might provide that for him, then I'd probably recommend that he did that. But I think that literally the subjective feeling of meaning is, is usually tied up in the identification of something that transcends your individual self.

    3. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:07:29

       Okay. W- why would you-

    4. AOAlex O’Connor1:07:30

       Right. And I think that any, whatever is the most plausible course of action for that person, to engage in something like that would be what I would recommend for them. If they're... Maybe they're, maybe they're not particularly interested in religion, I'd recommend that they read some philosophy of mind and try to understand the nature of consciousness, and they might start... I might recommend, depending on who they are, that they take a psychedelic drug and try to experience something which cannot be put into words, because a lot of the time when you experience something like an ego death, and you might realize that the, the individuated self is an illusion, and that these cliches that keep cropping up when someone does psychedelics... And I- and I actually think that the problem of consciousness is absolutely crucial to this.

    5. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:08:09

       Mm-hmm.

    6. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:09

       Uh, if, if ... I- I mean, I think the most plausible account of consciousness implies that consciousness is something which is sort of received by the biological organism, rather than produced by it. 'Cause I agree with you that you can't just put a bunch of molecules together and get consciousness.

    7. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:08:26

       Mm-hmm.

    8. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:26

       That doesn't make a- any sense whatsoever.

    9. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:08:27

       Mm-hmm.

    10. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:28

        But it's interesting that some of our best scientific evidence is, (laughs) is suggesting the fact not that the brain produces consciousness, but that the brain inhibits, and focuses, and organizes consciousness.

    11. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:08:38

        Mm-hmm.

    12. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:38

        It does not produce it.

    13. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:08:39

        Yeah. So, I- I- I love your answer. So, you- you were saying, you know, depending on the person, you can do different things. You can read philosophy of mind.

    14. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:45

        But I'd recommend them to do that, in other words, you know?

    15. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:08:47

        Yeah. Psychedelics.

    16. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:48

        To look at, look at that, depending on who they are.

    17. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:08:49

        You know, read the gospels. So, I- I think what's, what's interesting is that when you, you know, when, when Steven gives the concrete example of-

    18. AOAlex O’Connor1:08:55

        Yes.

    19. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:08:55

        ... like, if my friend comes to you who's had this religious awakening, or prior to a religious awakening, what would you recommend to them? And I think what's really interesting is basically all of the answers that you said, I think, can map onto mechanism.

    20. AOAlex O’Connor1:09:09

        Mm-hmm.

    21. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:09:10

        And I'd just love to talk about that for a second. So, the first thing is, you know, you asked me at the beginning, "Am I religious?" I- I think here's my understanding of ... And we were talking a little bit about, you know, people can have the subjective feeling of religion. What is the relationship to, to that thing being true? So, here's what I've sort of observed. I don't know if y'all have ever been to, like, a really great cathedral.

    22. AOAlex O’Connor1:09:30

        Oh, yeah.

    23. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:09:31

        But, like, you- you know, if you go to a great cathedral, you don't have to be Christian to be awe-inspired by what you see.

    24. AOAlex O’Connor1:09:38

        Sure.

    25. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:09:38

        So, when I look at the project of religion, which is a little bit different from spirituality, I- I ... One of the things that I've observed is that religion is a series of structures to evoke a personal experience. So, the whole point of reading the gospels is, fingers crossed, and we'll get to how to optimize that. Fingers crossed, if you read the gospels enough, or you go to church enough, or you pray enough, if you keep on talking to Christ, one day he'll start talking back. But I think the really interesting thing is if you struggle with purpose, you can read the gospels. If you go into religion, and I think what's changed now, is that we have so much science to understand the mechanism through which religious practices evoke subjective experience. So, you- I can go to church until for- my whole life, but until I have that relationship with God, that is a subjective experience that is evoked-

    26. AOAlex O’Connor1:10:33

        Mm-hmm.

    27. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:10:33

        ... by the sort of structure of the religious practice.

    28. AOAlex O’Connor1:10:37

        Oh, yeah.

    29. KKDr. K (Alok Kanojia)1:10:37

        So, that is absolutely one thing you can do. I think the cool thing is that the problem with reading the gospels, as- as I can clearly see that you've done, and- and, you know, I- I see the striving for religion in you. Like, you're like, you- you wanna have that, right? Like, you wanna know, like, "What are these people actually kinda talking about?" I could be wrong there. But I- I see this beautiful striving that you're, like, you're trying really hard to figure this stuff out, which is just awesome to see. I think though, that if we- we kinda look at it, and you mentioned kind of psychedelics as well, and I think psychedelics is- is really interesting, because we know that ... So, if you take someone who has treatment-refractory depression, or someone who has PTSD, and you give them a psychedelic, the psychedelic is not healing. What is healing is specifically whether they have an ego death experience.

    30. AOAlex O’Connor1:11:25

        Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 3:21:04