Ben Fogle: Overcoming My Lifelong Battle With Self-doubt | E81

1. 0:00 – 3:18

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      Ben Fogle. Ben relentlessly pursues adventure, risk, and challenge, but this doesn't come from a place of strength and courage. It comes from the opposite.

   2. BFBen Fogle0:08

      ... three holds. (instrumental music plays) If you think you're gonna fail, you're gonna fail. You just have to have this positive attitude, and, and it was only actually working with Olympians that I've done now, when I climbed Everest, that I realized you need this confidence verging on arrogance that, "I will get to the top of this mountain." Three weeks before he was due to be born naturally, we lost our third child. And it was an awful, awful experience that affected us profoundly. I became really introverted. I'd go to events and I'd find myself going to the loo and just sitting, sitting in the little cubicle for the duration of the whole event. Big mistake. We got death threats and worse. (baby cries) I- I shouldn't have shared this idea in a social, um, uh, media platform, but I was amazed at the vile, vitriolic abuse. (instrumental music plays)

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07

      Ben Fogle. He's a TV presenter, broadcaster, and author. He's climbed Mount Everest, he's trekked across Antarctica, and he's rowed across the Atlantic Ocean. Ben relentlessly pursues adventure, risk, and challenge, but this doesn't come from a place of strength and courage. It comes from the opposite, from a place that you would probably never expect. This was such a diverse conversation, and we covered so much and so many things. Ben has been on the most incredible journey, tearing up the script and ignoring the standards society sets for all of us on this never-ending continuous journey of rebuilding himself, as he says in his own words. And that journey has been inspired by one simple idea: his desire to take back control of his own personal narrative, something he believes we've all lost control of. And this podcast is gonna take you on a journey, from the need to a positive attitude, to resisting your label, to taking leaps, to rediscovering the importance of simplicity in your life that Ben has learned from living in the wilderness, and to answering the question that we all seek to answer pretty much every day of our lives, which is how to be happier and how to be more fulfilled. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays) Ben, uh, as I read through your story, your books, your interviews, and I- I- I remem- remember watching, uh, a YouTube documentary of you sailing across the Atlantic many years ago. Um, obviously the most sort of striking, distinctive, standout thing about the way that you've chosen to live your life over the last couple of decades is your w- or seemingly insatiable appetite for adventure, risk, challenge, uh, extreme adventure as it relates to Everest and things like that. Where did that come from?

   4. BFBen Fogle3:10

      I think it's... Do you know what? It's not necessarily an absolute thirst for adventure.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett3:15

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BFBen Fogle3:15

      I think it's about

2. 3:18 – 8:23

   Where does your thirst for challenge come from?

   1. BFBen Fogle3:18

      kind of finding the real me. See, if I go, if I go right back, a- as a child, I was so shy. I had no confidence. I failed all my exams. I was hopeless at sport. And actually, I think it, I think all of the things that I've done since have been about, like, rebuilding. It sounds a-

   2. SBSteven Bartlett3:39

      Mm-hmm.

   3. BFBen Fogle3:40

      It- it sounds a weird way to describe it, but it's not just... I'm not an adrenaline junkie. There's- there's this assumption that maybe, you know, th- the- the- that would be how to describe myself, but it's not that at all. Actually, loads of the things I do are really, really slow. You know, like rowing across the Atlantic took best part of two months, walking across Antarctica took many, many months, climbing Everest took r- many months. So actually, if- if- if it was jumping off a mountain, base jumping or going, uh, on a motorbike or even a- a mountain bike down a- a steep slope, I hate all that. It's too fast.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett4:14

      (laughs)

   5. BFBen Fogle4:14

      I quite like this slow movement, but I- I'm quite good at long endurance events. And- and all of those have been about rebuilding my confidence.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett4:25

      And what took your confidence? Or why didn't you have confidence?

   7. BFBen Fogle4:29

      I think, I think it's the fact that I was... I was hopeless academically for many different reasons. Undiagnosed dyslexia, um, a kind of a slight mistake, maybe not on my parents' part, but they... my father's Canadian. He wanted me to be bilingual, so I was sent to a French school, and I just, I just, I just didn't... I- I couldn't do the French school. The French system, and with all apologies to any French, uh, watching or listening to this, it's just quite a hard system, the French one. And- and- and it was quite, it- it was quite, um, strict, and I'm just... I... As a child, I just... I was surrounded by dogs. Dad was a vet, Mom was an actress. It was all quite a liberal... My- my actual childhood at home was quite liberal.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett5:15

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BFBen Fogle5:15

      Full of actors, um, lots of drink, uh, lots of animals around. It was, I suppose, crazy but normal for me. But then in this French system, it was very rigid, and-, and it meant that I didn't learn any French, and my English went backwards. So when I went back into the system, I was way behind, and it... And- and the result was the combination of that and dyslexia just meant I was hopeless. I could barely write, and I- and I failed all my exams. And I was surrounded by people who were better than me at everything. Everyone, everyone seemed to be more handsome when it c- if- if it was the boys. They had more luck with the girls. They were better at playing, um, sports because they could actually kick a football, unlike me that have, I have two left legs. And- and they were good at, um, academics. And when it came to the exams, they just...... that they didn't even, you know, they could be up all night watching stuff and then the next day turn up for the exam, whereas I was just, I, I was almost making myself vomit, I was so nervous about the exams 'cause I knew I was gonna fail. And this is, this is the first thing. I, I convinced myself I'd fail, and of course, I ended up failing because what I've discovered since is that so much of what we do and what we endure and how we test ourselves is here in the mind, and if you go in with a negative attitude, which is I had, then it's self-fulfilling. And, and the result was hopelessness at everything and it just stripped me of my confidence. I, I had, you know, I just, I didn't believe in myself. And that, that went right through, you know, probably into my 30s, if I'm to be really honest. I think that was always lingering over me, this little voice just telling me that I was, uh, that, that I wasn't good enough at what I did.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett6:58

       And wa- did that voice come from your own assessment of yourself, or w- was, was there external forces, bullying or your parents or?

   11. BFBen Fogle7:05

       No, my parents were amazing. You know, my, my parents have, uh, I, I don't think they could've done more for me than they did. I think it was... No, I think it was all internal, if I'm to be honest.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett7:17

       Mm-hmm.

   13. BFBen Fogle7:18

       I think there's a pre- uh, I think there was an external pressure to conform, because if you think about how s- if, if you take the schooling model and the education model, it is kind of about conforming.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett7:31

       Mm-hmm.

   15. BFBen Fogle7:31

       Because exams are all about getting the, the correct grades. We're, we're learning to a, a specific model that has been, um, set by the government and, and it's, it's sort of painting by numbers when it- when, when you think about education. And if you don't hit those targets, then, then you've effectively failed the system. And for me, you can hear from my accent, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm posh, I went to a private school. Mum and Dad worked really hard to send me to a private school. And actually, there was a great guilt that the fact that they had worked so hard to be able to afford to send me there and yet I still failed.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett8:09

       Mm-hmm.

   17. BFBen Fogle8:09

       Uh, so I think actually, a lot of that voice was internal. And actually, I wish if I could go back in time, I wish I could kind of shake my sho- uh, shake a, a young me on the shoulders and go, "Just don't, don't overthink things.

3. 8:23 – 13:01

   Overthinking & building confidence

   1. BFBen Fogle8:23

      Just chill out a little bit."

   2. SBSteven Bartlett8:25

      And you, were, were you a, a chronic over-thinker?

   3. BFBen Fogle8:28

      I was, and I still am.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett8:29

      Brilliant.

   5. BFBen Fogle8:29

      I still overthink things, if I'm to be honest. I, I, I, I... To work in the medium that I work in is a little bit strange 'cause I, I don't really belong in this medium. When I say this medium, you know, i- i- it front of house-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett8:42

      Yeah, presenting.

   7. BFBen Fogle8:42

      ... where, uh, on, uh, uh, as a presenter because, um, I've got a really thin skin and I overthink everything. So when I read something negative, whether that's on social media, whether that's a newspaper review, whether that's a journalist that has written something, um, which I don't like, um, or, or which doesn't seem true, I take it really personally, which is kind of really strange 'cause I should've, I should've been able to overcome that after 20 years, and I'm almost there, Stephen.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett9:09

      Mm-hmm.

   9. BFBen Fogle9:09

      I'm almost there. But one of the reasons I'm happy to talk about it is 'cause I know s- I'm, I know I'm not alone, I know there are many, many people out there who are high achievers, who've done brilliant things in life, but are still burdened with their own voice of doubt. And through all of these challenges I've done, I've been able to really build that confidence and I'm, I'm, I'd say I'm a few hundred meters from the summit now of peak confidence.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett9:35

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BFBen Fogle9:36

       And I can't wait until I'm there. I hope I do r- I h- I hope I reach that point.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett9:41

       What is it about those challenges and the sort of, slow, monotonous nature of those challenges, or just the challenges themselves, or challenge as a, you know, as a, as a construct itself that helped you to build confidence? 'Cause I'm... One of the most frequent questions I'm asked in the comments section of this podcast, or on Instagram, or anywhere else is, um, "How do I build my confidence?" And I think we live in a culture, especially on Instagram, where it seems like everyone else is super confident and chasing their dreams, and we, we never get to hear the whispers of their self-doubt.

   13. BFBen Fogle10:12

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett10:12

       So it f- might feel like we're the only ones. So I guess my question is, uh, w- how d- how, how did those challenges build your confidence?

   15. BFBen Fogle10:20

       Mm-hmm. It, it, it, it happened by accident. So that's the first thing to say. I didn't chase it thinking, "This is going to help." It, it was like a slow series of blocks that were built. So it started when I failed my A levels and I went off traveling. I went to Costa Rica, a place that I know you love.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett10:36

       (laughs)

   17. BFBen Fogle10:37

       And I went to university out there. And I, and I think it was spending time in a different country, uh, i- in a different country, country with a different culture, different language, different religion, away from home, away from mum and dad. And, and first of all, I had to kind of think on my own. I couldn't defer to other people. Up until that point, I'd always kind of, "Dad, what do you-" (laughs)

   18. SBSteven Bartlett10:59

       (laughs)

   19. BFBen Fogle10:59

       "... what do you think? Mum, what do you... Should I do..." You know, I, I, I, I didn't trust my own judgment. So first of all, that was gone, so I had to stand or fall on my own decisions. And then secondly, just the immersion in this exciting new place was just... I mean, it just... It, it was the most exciting year I've ever had, if I'm to be really honest. And I decided then that, that that's what I wanted from life. I didn't want to conform by getting, you know, I, I, I didn't want the degree, the, the, um, the job, the mortgage, the sitting in an office. I didn't want to go down that conventional route, but that is-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett11:37

       Why?

   21. BFBen Fogle11:38

       Because I didn't, I didn't feel like a conformist. I di- I didn't want to be a sheep. I wanted to be the shepherd. I didn't want to just conform to the expectations of what society deems as successful.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett11:52

       Why?

   23. BFBen Fogle11:53

       Because-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett11:53

       'Cause I'm just making sure you're not playing... You're not, you're not doing it just for the sake of devil's advocate.

   25. BFBen Fogle11:58

       Yeah.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett11:58

       Just to go against-

   27. BFBen Fogle11:59

       No, not at all. I'm not... I'm actually not a contrarian. I'm not someone who says left just because-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett12:05

       Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

   29. BFBen Fogle12:05

       ... the other person has said right. I'm really not a contrarian. If anything, p-... for someone who doesn't like criticism, I should probably stand back and therefore I should sit on the fence and-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett12:14

       Mm-hmm.
4. 13:01 – 21:33

   Conforming

   1. BFBen Fogle13:01

   2. SBSteven Bartlett13:01

      (laughs)

   3. BFBen Fogle13:01

      You know, you know the one-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett13:02

      Go for it.

   5. BFBen Fogle13:02

      ... like walking around with a cat, stroking it.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett13:04

      Yeah, yeah.

   7. BFBen Fogle13:05

      Kind of-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett13:05

      Yeah, yeah.

   9. BFBen Fogle13:05

      Uh, because I kind of... That- that's how... There- there is this kind of... There's an enemy that I have never, I still haven't really fully found, but I knew I wouldn't find that person sitting in an office on a computer, um, in a job that society expected me to take just so that I could follow the narrative. And the narrative being, as I've kind of explained, you know, getting a good job that you can then, um, get- get a promotion. You get the- the good wage.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett13:37

       Mm-hmm.

   11. BFBen Fogle13:37

       You might get a bonus. You can buy your house. You can get your car. You marry. You get the dog. You have the children. And then you end up retiring, and then you do all the things you want to do. And here's the key, because is it the journey or the destination?

   12. SBSteven Bartlett13:53

       For me, it's 100% the journey.

   13. BFBen Fogle13:54

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett13:55

       Yeah. I mean, the destination-

   15. BFBen Fogle13:55

       But so many people don't see it that, but you s-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett13:57

       Yeah.

   17. BFBen Fogle13:57

       But this is where you and I have quite a lot in common.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett13:59

       Mm-hmm.

   19. BFBen Fogle13:59

       Okay. We're, we're... Maybe, uh, the, the, what we're doing now in life is very, very different-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett14:06

       Yeah.

   21. BFBen Fogle14:06

       ... but the fact that you will suddenly just wake up one day and go-

   22. SBSteven Bartlett14:09

       Yeah.

   23. BFBen Fogle14:09

       ... "I'm gonna, I'm gonna resign from, from this ��..."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett14:12

       Yeah, no, honestly, it sounds, everything you're saying... Like I- I wouldn't make this about you, but I feel like I've been on the same journey, as you're saying, with the, you know, one day I might have the dog and whatever, which is just trying to get closer and closer to who I actually am.

   25. BFBen Fogle14:22

       Mm-hmm.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett14:22

       And, um, trying to find the courage, the strength to, um, not allow society to write, to tell me what my st- how my story has to be.

   27. BFBen Fogle14:31

       Yeah, so whose story... And this is the thing, isn't it? Whose story is it?

   28. SBSteven Bartlett14:34

       Yeah, it's-

   29. BFBen Fogle14:34

       Is it yours or someone else's?

   30. SBSteven Bartlett14:36

       Of course it's someone else's story, and it was written at another time, in another age, if we're talking about marriage-
5. 21:33 – 28:30

   I don't know if I'll ever find who I really am

   1. SBSteven Bartlett21:33

   2. BFBen Fogle21:33

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett21:34

      Um, but anyway, I wanted to, to ask you, get back to one of the points you said earlier. You said, um, you don't think you'll ever ... you're not sure if you'll ever find out who you really are. Could you expand on that? What do you mean?

   4. BFBen Fogle21:46

      Well, I think we're all the, the, the product, I suppose, of our experiences and who we are.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett21:52

      Mm-hmm.

   6. BFBen Fogle21:53

      And, and I think if you look at, if, if you look at life as this journey and not just a destination, then we're constantly evolving and changing and, and growing. And I think y- however much you try to be yourself, you, you, you become a bit chameleon-like, and, and you end up, y- you end up kind of bl- the lines between who you are and what everything else is does begin to blur a little bit. So the, the way I look at it, you know, I started off as this deeply unconfident, shy child that then kind of morphed into, you know, h- how I started when I was on one of the first reality shows, which was called Castaway. I was sent to live on an island for a year, and then I kind of became this posh real- reality show contestant. And then I started working in daytime TV, and I became a daytime TV presenter. And then I kind of became a broadcaster, and, and you're ... I, I see it all the time, you become stereotyped. So you, whenever, whene- whenever your name is, is written, it will say, you know, it will have either, uh, an amount that you made or it will have the company that you started, but is that really, is that really you? So if, so if you or I went on Strictly Come Dancing now, by the way, that would be changed instantly, and it would then be Stephen from Strictly Come Dancing or Betty 'cause you're only ... you're, you're as, you're remembered for the last big thing. And that constantly changes, but it then means it's quite hard to leap away from that. So if you're suddenly gonna decide, actually, I, I'm gonna become a, a, a, an MP now-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett23:30

      Mm-hmm.

   8. BFBen Fogle23:30

      ... people will be like, "Well, n- hang on. No, no, that's not the narrative." And what happens, I, I think what happens is you, you become blinded by people going, "I'm just not really sure this is right," because that's not, that's not really who you are. That's not part of the narrative that I think you were going down for the book that you're writing of your life. And I don't mean the, the physical book-

   9. SBSteven Bartlett23:53

      Yeah.

   10. BFBen Fogle23:53

       ... but just the, the metaphorical one. So-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett23:56

       Speaking of books-

   12. BFBen Fogle23:57

       Yes.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett23:58

       ... in my book, I have a chapter called Resisting Your Labels.

   14. BFBen Fogle24:00

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett24:00

       And it's exactly this, exactly what you said.

   16. BFBen Fogle24:02

       Yeah. Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett24:02

       So I refer to it as your label.

   18. BFBen Fogle24:04

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett24:04

       And I, I say that your, your label comes with a set of instructions-

   20. BFBen Fogle24:08

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett24:08

       ... implicit instructions about how you have to behave-

   22. BFBen Fogle24:09

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett24:10

       ... going forward. So my labels would be, I don't know, Black social media CEO.

   24. BFBen Fogle24:15

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett24:15

       ... and with that comes a set of instructions-

   26. BFBen Fogle24:17

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett24:17

       ... as to how I'm expected to behave in the future-

   28. BFBen Fogle24:19

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett24:19

       And that can be imprisoning, right?

   30. BFBen Fogle24:21

       Mm-hmm. Of course.
6. 28:30 – 36:15

   Monetary value

   1. BFBen Fogle28:30

      next to you. It's- it's next to your bio.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett28:31

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

   3. BFBen Fogle28:32

      So listen, by the way, I think it's something you should be really proud of, if- if you have, if you have managed to make that that much money, I think that is te- that is your Everest, that is testament to- to dreams that lots of people have. But I think we need to change this notion that being wealthy is a sign of success in life. If you- if you look at the model, the- that, uh, Jacinda Ardern was trying to do in- in New Zealand, it was to change gross national, um, product, to- to- to change what the country's values are by including the happiness index, and the kindness index, and how, what- what a good nation you are and how healthy you are, and your obesity levels. You bring into all of those things, 'cause for me, as a parent, I want my children to have the security of having enough money to put food on their plate and a roof over their heads. But whether they make huge amounts of money is kind of irrelevant, as long as they are good, rounded, kind, happy individuals.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett29:33

      Yeah, uh, I think you've na- hit the nail on the head. This is actually why my book is called Happy Sexy Millionaire-

   5. BFBen Fogle29:37

      Mm-hmm.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett29:37

      ... because when I was 18, all I wanted in life was to be, uh, as it says on the front page of my diary, Range Rover Sport, uh, million pounds before I was 25-

   7. BFBen Fogle29:45

      Mm-hmm.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett29:45

      ... because I was... It's the same, similar to what you've described, the thing that had invalidated me as a child-

   9. BFBen Fogle29:50

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett29:50

       ... was being the only poor family in a middle class area-

   11. BFBen Fogle29:55

       Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett29:55

       ... and never having anything, no birthdays, no Christmases, never went on holiday. So obviously that was my insecurity, and I chased it as an adult.

   13. BFBen Fogle30:01

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett30:01

       And then I got it, and then it, you know, slipped through your fingers, yeah.

   15. BFBen Fogle30:04

       And by- and by the way, just to reiterate, I c- I- I think to have a goal like that-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett30:08

       Yeah.

   17. BFBen Fogle30:08

       ... is so important, whatever your goal is.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett30:10

       Yeah, it is.

   19. BFBen Fogle30:10

       I'm- I'm just saying, I think to- to have the m- the pure monetary goal-... maybe isn't necessarily for, for everyone now-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett30:19

       Yeah.

   21. BFBen Fogle30:19

       ... for children. Shouldn't necessarily be the priority. It can be a, it can be a byproduct of being successful. You know, when, when... I'm sure you get the same thing when, when I go and give talks in schools and I go, "So, what does everyone want to be when they're older," you know? I get a, a large number who just want to be famous.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett30:35

       Mm-hmm.

   23. BFBen Fogle30:35

       And, and I always say something that's, "It's all very well. I get why you want to be famous, but there needs to be substance to that fame."

   24. SBSteven Bartlett30:43

       Yeah.

   25. BFBen Fogle30:43

       "So, you need to be famous because you have succeeded in business, because you're a great footballer, because you're a great actor or actress." And, uh, and, and then as a byproduct of all of that, you can become a great millionaire and, and, um, and, and, and sort of reach those dreams as well.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett31:01

       Yeah. So, uh, again, exactly what you've just said there, I think there's a... The distinction for me is, like, whether the goal was intrinsically or extrinsically motivated.

   27. BFBen Fogle31:09

       Mm-hmm.

   28. SBSteven Bartlett31:09

       And the kid there that says he wants to be famous is pure... Is actually saying, "I would like people to like me."

   29. BFBen Fogle31:14

       Mm-hmm.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett31:15

       "I want admiration."
7. 36:15 – 40:32

   Social media and Trolling

   1. SBSteven Bartlett36:15

      keep me alive. I can't stop it.

   2. BFBen Fogle36:17

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett36:17

      ... you know? I- I- So, I just have to be conscious about the way I use these tools.

   4. BFBen Fogle36:21

      Mm-hmm.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett36:22

      Yeah.

   6. BFBen Fogle36:23

      I th- I mean, I think it's a, it's a fascinating world and again, as a father, with young kids, who are-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett36:28

      It's terrifying.

   8. BFBen Fogle36:28

      ... embarking into that world, I, I, I, I'm struggling to find the tools to arm them for the battle ahead.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett36:36

      Yeah.

   10. BFBen Fogle36:37

       And, and I'm aware that they can be fantastically useful. That, you know, the, the, it's amazing the, the, the interactions that you can get, you know? It's, it's how I'm here today. I wouldn't be here w- if it, if it wasn't for, uh, social media, chatting to you now. So, I- I'm aware of the beauty of being able to share things, it's just how we get away from, kind of, the, the fakery. If-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett37:00

       Mm.

   12. BFBen Fogle37:00

       ... if that is the term to use.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett37:02

       And, and the abuse you were talking about a second ago, negative comment, one negative comment-

   14. BFBen Fogle37:05

       Mm-hmm.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett37:05

       ... can throw you off.

   16. BFBen Fogle37:06

       Mm-hmm. I'm, uh, the kind of, the, the whole world of trolling fascinates me 'cause deep down, I just know that those people that write the nasty comments sometimes aren't even real. Sometimes they're just disgruntled and it's probably no different to how life would be in a pub. There would be some person in there that would go, "Rah, rah, rah." Muttering under their breath. The problem is, on social media, it get, it gets kind of brought to the surface and for whatever reason, I think we probably know, newspapers love to then regurgitate what that single individual spotty teenager in their bedroom has written, uh, as, uh, uh, as validation. They sort of validate it.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett37:51

       Mm-hmm.

   18. BFBen Fogle37:51

       So, I- I had a, uh, funny enough during the first lockdown, my daughter thought it would be nice to get the nation to sing Happy Birthday to the Queen.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett37:59

       Mm-hmm.

   20. BFBen Fogle38:00

       And, uh, I realized there's lots of people who aren't monarchists. I, I understand that we're in a country where not everyone agrees on the same thing. But I thought it was quite a nice sentiment. And foolishly, I decided to let her use my, uh, Twitter account to kind of ask people to do it. Big mistake. We got death threats and worse. Uh, I mean, the vile abuse to my nine-year-old daughter. Partly my fa- you know, I shouldn't have allowed her to u- I, I shouldn't have shared this idea in a social, um, uh, media platform with a g- with, with my daughter, I realized. But I was amazed at the vile, vitriolic abuse. And that was partly kind of enhanced by the press, who jumped on a few negative comments, wrote about it. And as soon as they had written about it, uh, it went, it, I mean, it, uh, uh, I had to give up Twitter. I- I actually, um, abandoned it and haven't, I haven't gone back to it since.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett38:56

       Really?

   22. BFBen Fogle38:57

       Mm.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett38:59

       Crazy. There's a lot of talk at the moment about what social platforms can do for this type of behavior, and I just, I always come back to the point w- of like... I'm gonna tell a little bit of a story here. So, when I worked in Silicon Valley for a little while, for about a year when I was 20, after I left my first company, and I got to see behind one of the big social platforms that was emerging at the time, and it taught me something about humans. Because someone in the daytime, who is a very civilized school teacher, just c- being completely honest, would get his cock out at night because of anonymity.

   24. BFBen Fogle39:32

       Mm-hmm.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett39:32

       And what it taught me was that people who, good people are capable of pretty alarming things-

   26. BFBen Fogle39:38

       Mm-hmm.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett39:38

       ... if you allow them to cover their face.

   28. BFBen Fogle39:40

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett39:40

       And there's a piece of jealousy and evilness and darkness in all of us.

   30. BFBen Fogle39:45

       Mm-hmm.
8. 40:32 – 51:45

   Wokness

   1. BFBen Fogle40:32

      Wokeness is, it's fascinating and it's really complex now, especially as a documentary maker. I go off to, to, um, uh, countries all around the world. And, and I've been accused of, of, um, gross xenophobia just because I go to these countries now and maybe make a documentary about a, a, a local group of people who live there. It's seen by the extreme woke brigade as being, as othering people. This is the, this is the woke term right now, "Don't other people."

   2. SBSteven Bartlett41:08

      (laughs)

   3. BFBen Fogle41:09

      So, by, by taking a document- I know. I mean, it is laughable, but they're quite, but they have-

   4. SBSteven Bartlett41:13

      (laughs)

   5. BFBen Fogle41:13

      ... quite a strong voice. And I, and I've, you know, I've had to talk about this on-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett41:17

      Sorry, what's othering people?

   7. BFBen Fogle41:18

      ... national radio. To other people is to make them feel like they aren't a part of normal. I mean, this comes, we- we've come full circle right now. So, othering is to make people, um, kind of feel like they don't-

   8. SBSteven Bartlett41:34

      Like they're specimens or something?

   9. BFBen Fogle41:35

      Yes. Specimens, basically.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett41:36

       Okay.

   11. BFBen Fogle41:36

       So, to other. So, effectively going, if you imagine, you know, going to a group, um, of indigenous, native, um, uh, people who live in the Brazilian Amazon, where once that was seen as, you know, uh, anthropological study of how people live and what they do. Now, it's seen as sneering and laughing at people because you're othering them and you're showing, "Look at, look at them still hunting with spears and bows and arrows." Now, th- this is the wokery brigade who interpret it like that. I interpret it as a great celebration because more often than not, I kind of is seeing how we should be living and how we should be, um-... treating nature and the flora and fauna around us, rather than living in big cities where we're fantastically wasteful and we're destroying the planet. Actually, th- th- th- this kind of nomadic way of life, or this very simple hand to mouth way of life, I- I go and I- I feel- I feel huge admiration. And I'm not laughing or sneering, but there are lots of people that interpret that form of television as that. Now, I've just given you one form of wokery right now, and there's, it's, uh, so we all have, we have to think about everything we say and everything we do, and is that cultural app- I've just got a kilt. I've been sel- sent a kilt because, um, it's, uh, the big, uh, global climate conference in Glasgow later this year. I'm gonna be up there.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett43:05

       Hmm.

   13. BFBen Fogle43:05

       In Scotland, obviously, the kilt is- is the national dress, and I was asked if I could wear a kilt with a special environmental fabric, so I've agreed to do that. But I can already see wha- when it comes to that, culturally, that-

   14. SBSteven Bartlett43:19

       (laughs)

   15. BFBen Fogle43:19

       By the way, I'm- I'm a quarter Scottish as well, but I'm not even gonna try that-

   16. SBSteven Bartlett43:22

       (laughs)

   17. BFBen Fogle43:22

       ... because it wouldn't- it wouldn't get past the woke police-

   18. SBSteven Bartlett43:25

       (laughs)

   19. BFBen Fogle43:25

       ... 'cause it's cultural appropriation. I'm not-

   20. SBSteven Bartlett43:27

       I was gonna say, if you went to the Amazon jungle and you saw th- that tribe and you showed up with a spear-

   21. BFBen Fogle43:31

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett43:31

       ... and a skirt. (laughs)

   23. BFBen Fogle43:33

       Yeah, yeah. But, but you know, if, so if you look at what Bruce Parry used to do, where he would immerse himself and he would live there, I don't know if you remember Bruce Parry-

   24. SBSteven Bartlett43:41

       No, I don't.

   25. BFBen Fogle43:41

       ... but he- he would go and live there for, l- live there being with a- a- a group of, uh, with a tribe somewhere, and he would adopt their native dress, whether it was just a little, you know, whether it was a very simple skirt, wha- whatever it was, and he would live as they do. I don't know if you could get away with that now, because it would be seen as a mix of cultural appropriation, othering people, um, and it should be... We- we should leave people to live as they do without trying to mimic it. That's- that- that's how it is interpreted by some people.

   26. SBSteven Bartlett44:16

       Where is all of this wokeness going? Because I feel like it's gaining momentum, and I- and I- I worry about the trajectory. I'm like, it's not, is it gonna come back this way? Because it's been, I feel like society has swung in a woke direction, maybe because of social media, it's kind of like reinforcing- reinforcing all of us in our echo chambers, going, "Yeah, you're, that's perfect. You're perfect. That was good, good. You're bad, bad. That's bad. He's bad. Get him."

   27. BFBen Fogle44:39

       But surely you know this probably more than- than I do, that you have extreme wokery on one side-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett44:44

       Yeah.

   29. BFBen Fogle44:44

       ... but then we have the extre- we've got kind of fascism and the complete opposites-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett44:50

       Yeah.
9. 51:45 – 1:07:53

   Failure, self doubt and self belief

   1. BFBen Fogle51:45

   2. SBSteven Bartlett51:45

      (laughs)

   3. BFBen Fogle51:45

      But someone just might want to play golf all day. Someone might want to play cards all day. Someone just might want to just move to the South of France and sit and drink beer all day. Someone might want to go surfing all day. Wha- whatever it is. But there's no reason why you can't be doing that throughout your life. You just have to think outside of the box, don't you? You just have to have this positive attitude, and, you know, this comes back to what I was saying to you. As a child, I, I realized this. If you think you're gonna fail, you're gonna fail. So every driving test, all of those ones I told you I failed, I would get in the car and this booming, deafening voice was saying, "You are going to fail." And sure enough, I'd mount the pavement. (laughs)

   4. SBSteven Bartlett52:20

      (laughs)

   5. BFBen Fogle52:20

      I'd, I got stopped by the police once 'cause I wasn't wearing a seatbelt.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett52:23

      On a driving test?

   7. BFBen Fogle52:23

      Yeah, on a driving test. But because it was almost like self-fulfillment of my mind's attitude. And it was only actually working with Olympians that I've done now, when I climbed Everest, I went with Victoria Pendleton, the cyclist. When I rowed the Atlantic, it was with James Cracknell. And I've been lucky enough to work with some other Olympians that I realize you need this absolute confidence verging on arrogance that, "I will get to the top of this mountain. I will reach the South Pole." 'Cause as soon as you go into an event where you're, there's any self-doubt, it's, it's, it, it, it will be self-fulfilling. You must know that. You, you, you must know that.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett53:01

      Yeah.

   9. BFBen Fogle53:01

      But it's impossible to-

   10. SBSteven Bartlett53:01

       I, I, I love-

   11. BFBen Fogle53:02

       ... fake, in my view. Like, I, I really, I'm, I'm quite repelled by this culture of, like, people looking in the mirror and saying, "You are gonna be a millionaire. You are great." But d- because I, my opinion of how beliefs work, like, so I always use this example, this is the fifth, millionth time I've said this, if I were to hold your loved one at gunpoint now and say, "Believe I'm Jesus or I kill them-" Mm-hmm.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett53:22

       ... there's nothing you could do to actually believe I was Jesus.

   13. BFBen Fogle53:25

       Mm-hmm.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett53:25

       You could only lie to me.

   15. BFBen Fogle53:26

       Mm-hmm.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett53:27

       Because that's not how belief works. B- as you've proven, beliefs take evidence.

   17. BFBen Fogle53:31

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett53:31

       And you've built that evidence through your challenges.

   19. BFBen Fogle53:32

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett53:32

       Right? So, like, just, just telling yourself to believe something doesn't work, even if everything is on the line.

   21. BFBen Fogle53:37

       Mm-hmm.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett53:38

       Um, but if I suddenly turn this into wine and then started levitating-

   23. BFBen Fogle53:41

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett53:41

       ... you might think, "W- wait, wait a minute."

   25. BFBen Fogle53:43

       But this is, but, but you're, you're taking it slightly too literally-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett53:47

       Okay.

   27. BFBen Fogle53:47

       ... when it comes to what that is. So here's the thing. I, I, d- d- th- there's a, a man called Mark Boyle who-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett53:53

       Mm-hmm.

   29. BFBen Fogle53:53

       ... who, um, lives in Ireland, a fascinating man. I thi- I think you should get him on here. He has lived as The Moneyless Man, and he gave up everything and tried to live without any money for a year.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett54:04

       Mm-hmm.
10. 1:07:53 – 1:16:32

    Your wife, preventative marriage concealing

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:53

       was your, uh, about your relationship with your lovely wife.

    2. BFBen Fogle1:07:55

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:07:56

       And you're both very vocal about the, dare I say, not radical, but the sort of, like, innovative way that you've built your relationship-

    4. BFBen Fogle1:08:06

       Mm-hmm.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:07

       ... in various areas. One of the really interesting things to me was this idea that you have preventative marriage counseling?

    6. BFBen Fogle1:08:13

       Mm-hmm. Yeah.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:15

       Tell me about that. And why do I need it?

    8. BFBen Fogle1:08:17

       So, (laughs) so my, so my wife, Marina, we've been married for, this'll be our 15th year together.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:23

       Wow. Congrats.

    10. BFBen Fogle1:08:23

        She's half-Austrian. Thank you. She's half-Austrian, and she's, she's got skin like a rhino. It's unbelievable. Uh, as in (laughs) , as in, can I just say, that, that, uh, in terms of, uh, being, uh, not ever being offended, she's got-

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:36

        (laughs) .

    12. BFBen Fogle1:08:36

        ... glowing skin.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:37

        I thought you meant-

    14. BFBen Fogle1:08:38

        Her skin is really beau-

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:39

        (laughs) . (laughs) .

    16. BFBen Fogle1:08:39

        It's really beauti- she moisturizes the whole time.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:44

        (laughs) .

    18. BFBen Fogle1:08:44

        She doesn't have this big, wrinkly gray skin.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:46

        You're in trouble.

    20. BFBen Fogle1:08:46

        Oh my God, I'm blushing. I'm gonna get in so much trouble for that.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:08:48

        (laughs) .

    22. BFBen Fogle1:08:49

        But she is, she, she's really tough. She's really resilient. She's no-nonsense. She doesn't beat about the bush. And we're very, you know, I, I am by my own admission much more sensitive soul. Now, it doesn't mean she isn't sensitive, but, but she's, she kind of calls a spade a spade. Whereas I might say, "Well, that is a spade, but you could, probably could use that as a fork." (laughs) . You see what I mean? I kind of, 'cause I want to please all the people, and I don't want to offend, so I kind of find myself kind of da-

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:09:15

        In the middle.

    24. BFBen Fogle1:09:15

        ... dancing around a little bit. In the middle, there you go. Whereas Marina has always just been straight down the line, and our, our kind of, our relationship is h- has been built on me being away a lot, 'cause outside of the time of COVID, I'm probably traveling eight months of the year. So there's a lot of time away, but w- that's how it's always been, and, and we have a really solid relationship. And, and, and we, we had a terrible tragedy about, um, six years ago when we lost our third child, uh, uh, a little boy, Willem, who was stillborn, so he, so three weeks before he was due to be born naturally, um, unfortunately Marina had something called a placental abruption, and he died. And, and, and it was an awful, awful experience that I've kind of spoken about before, but it, it affected us profoundly, much more than I thought it would. The, the, the feel, the, the, the, this emotion of losing someone you'd never had a chance to meet is, is something I'd never experienced before, um, and I couldn't quite understand my own emotions, and, and, and added to that, when this all happened, I was on the other side of the world. I thought Marina was going to die. So, it, it was a big, very impactful part of our relationship, and we sought counseling afterwards to help us through the complexities of all of those emotions. And it was through that, that we, we kind of realized that actually our own relationship, we d- we, we talked about things that we hadn't talked about before, outside of the, the awfulness of that situation. We talked about our very different characters, and how, how we kind of tread around one another, and I think a lot of, a lot of relationships have that. They don't... Y- y- you might joke about your very different personalities, but there are certain areas that you know, "Oh, no, I can't ever say that. I couldn't do that." Well, why couldn't you... You should be really, really honest. The best relationships are ones where you can say anything to one another without fear of offense. Now, I've already said that I've rather thin skin, so I'm easily offended, and Marina has offended me many times over the years, and I, and I've offended her. And, and I think this marri- th- this m- marriage counseling prevention came, was born out of that. And about a year afterwards, Marina... W- we were struggling a little bit. It was such a profound thing that it affected us, because we had different ways of dealing with, with the grief of losing that little boy. Mm-hmm.

Episode duration: 1:41:31