Ben Fogle: Overcoming My Lifelong Battle With Self-doubt | E81

Steven Bartlett 0:00 Ben Fogle. Ben relentlessly pursues adventure, risk, and challenge, but this doesn't come from a place of strength and courage. It comes from the opposite.

Ben Fogle 0:08 ... three holds. (instrumental music plays) If you think you're gonna fail, you're gonna fail. You just have to have this positive attitude, and, and it was only actually working with Olympians that I've done now, when I climbed Everest, that I realized you need this confidence verging on arrogance that, "I will get to the top of this mountain." Three weeks before he was due to be born naturally, we lost our third child. And it was an awful, awful experience that affected us profoundly. I became really introverted. I'd go to events and I'd find myself going to the loo and just sitting, sitting in the little cubicle for the duration of the whole event. Big mistake. We got death threats and worse. (baby cries) I- I shouldn't have shared this idea in a social, um, uh, media platform, but I was amazed at the vile, vitriolic abuse. (instrumental music plays)

Steven Bartlett 1:07 Ben Fogle. He's a TV presenter, broadcaster, and author. He's climbed Mount Everest, he's trekked across Antarctica, and he's rowed across the Atlantic Ocean. Ben relentlessly pursues adventure, risk, and challenge, but this doesn't come from a place of strength and courage. It comes from the opposite, from a place that you would probably never expect. This was such a diverse conversation, and we covered so much and so many things. Ben has been on the most incredible journey, tearing up the script and ignoring the standards society sets for all of us on this never-ending continuous journey of rebuilding himself, as he says in his own words. And that journey has been inspired by one simple idea: his desire to take back control of his own personal narrative, something he believes we've all lost control of. And this podcast is gonna take you on a journey, from the need to a positive attitude, to resisting your label, to taking leaps, to rediscovering the importance of simplicity in your life that Ben has learned from living in the wilderness, and to answering the question that we all seek to answer pretty much every day of our lives, which is how to be happier and how to be more fulfilled. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music plays) Ben, uh, as I read through your story, your books, your interviews, and I- I- I remem- remember watching, uh, a YouTube documentary of you sailing across the Atlantic many years ago. Um, obviously the most sort of striking, distinctive, standout thing about the way that you've chosen to live your life over the last couple of decades is your w- or seemingly insatiable appetite for adventure, risk, challenge, uh, extreme adventure as it relates to Everest and things like that. Where did that come from?

Ben Fogle 3:10 I think it's... Do you know what? It's not necessarily an absolute thirst for adventure.

Steven Bartlett 3:15 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 3:15 I think it's about

Ben Fogle 3:18 kind of finding the real me. See, if I go, if I go right back, a- as a child, I was so shy. I had no confidence. I failed all my exams. I was hopeless at sport. And actually, I think it, I think all of the things that I've done since have been about, like, rebuilding. It sounds a-

Steven Bartlett 3:39 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 3:40 It- it sounds a weird way to describe it, but it's not just... I'm not an adrenaline junkie. There's- there's this assumption that maybe, you know, th- the- the- that would be how to describe myself, but it's not that at all. Actually, loads of the things I do are really, really slow. You know, like rowing across the Atlantic took best part of two months, walking across Antarctica took many, many months, climbing Everest took r- many months. So actually, if- if- if it was jumping off a mountain, base jumping or going, uh, on a motorbike or even a- a mountain bike down a- a steep slope, I hate all that. It's too fast.

Steven Bartlett 4:14 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 4:14 I quite like this slow movement, but I- I'm quite good at long endurance events. And- and all of those have been about rebuilding my confidence.

Steven Bartlett 4:25 And what took your confidence? Or why didn't you have confidence?

Ben Fogle 4:29 I think, I think it's the fact that I was... I was hopeless academically for many different reasons. Undiagnosed dyslexia, um, a kind of a slight mistake, maybe not on my parents' part, but they... my father's Canadian. He wanted me to be bilingual, so I was sent to a French school, and I just, I just, I just didn't... I- I couldn't do the French school. The French system, and with all apologies to any French, uh, watching or listening to this, it's just quite a hard system, the French one. And- and- and it was quite, it- it was quite, um, strict, and I'm just... I... As a child, I just... I was surrounded by dogs. Dad was a vet, Mom was an actress. It was all quite a liberal... My- my actual childhood at home was quite liberal.

Steven Bartlett 5:15 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 5:15 Full of actors, um, lots of drink, uh, lots of animals around. It was, I suppose, crazy but normal for me. But then in this French system, it was very rigid, and-, and it meant that I didn't learn any French, and my English went backwards. So when I went back into the system, I was way behind, and it... And- and the result was the combination of that and dyslexia just meant I was hopeless. I could barely write, and I- and I failed all my exams. And I was surrounded by people who were better than me at everything. Everyone, everyone seemed to be more handsome when it c- if- if it was the boys. They had more luck with the girls. They were better at playing, um, sports because they could actually kick a football, unlike me that have, I have two left legs. And- and they were good at, um, academics. And when it came to the exams, they just...... that they didn't even, you know, they could be up all night watching stuff and then the next day turn up for the exam, whereas I was just, I, I was almost making myself vomit, I was so nervous about the exams 'cause I knew I was gonna fail. And this is, this is the first thing. I, I convinced myself I'd fail, and of course, I ended up failing because what I've discovered since is that so much of what we do and what we endure and how we test ourselves is here in the mind, and if you go in with a negative attitude, which is I had, then it's self-fulfilling. And, and the result was hopelessness at everything and it just stripped me of my confidence. I, I had, you know, I just, I didn't believe in myself. And that, that went right through, you know, probably into my 30s, if I'm to be really honest. I think that was always lingering over me, this little voice just telling me that I was, uh, that, that I wasn't good enough at what I did.

Steven Bartlett 6:58 And wa- did that voice come from your own assessment of yourself, or w- was, was there external forces, bullying or your parents or?

Ben Fogle 7:05 No, my parents were amazing. You know, my, my parents have, uh, I, I don't think they could've done more for me than they did. I think it was... No, I think it was all internal, if I'm to be honest.

Steven Bartlett 7:17 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 7:18 I think there's a pre- uh, I think there was an external pressure to conform, because if you think about how s- if, if you take the schooling model and the education model, it is kind of about conforming.

Steven Bartlett 7:31 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 7:31 Because exams are all about getting the, the correct grades. We're, we're learning to a, a specific model that has been, um, set by the government and, and it's, it's sort of painting by numbers when it- when, when you think about education. And if you don't hit those targets, then, then you've effectively failed the system. And for me, you can hear from my accent, you know, I'm, I'm, I'm posh, I went to a private school. Mum and Dad worked really hard to send me to a private school. And actually, there was a great guilt that the fact that they had worked so hard to be able to afford to send me there and yet I still failed.

Steven Bartlett 8:09 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 8:09 Uh, so I think actually, a lot of that voice was internal. And actually, I wish if I could go back in time, I wish I could kind of shake my sho- uh, shake a, a young me on the shoulders and go, "Just don't, don't overthink things.

Ben Fogle 8:23 Just chill out a little bit."

Steven Bartlett 8:25 And you, were, were you a, a chronic over-thinker?

Ben Fogle 8:28 I was, and I still am.

Steven Bartlett 8:29 Brilliant.

Ben Fogle 8:29 I still overthink things, if I'm to be honest. I, I, I, I... To work in the medium that I work in is a little bit strange 'cause I, I don't really belong in this medium. When I say this medium, you know, i- i- it front of house-

Steven Bartlett 8:42 Yeah, presenting.

Ben Fogle 8:42 ... where, uh, on, uh, uh, as a presenter because, um, I've got a really thin skin and I overthink everything. So when I read something negative, whether that's on social media, whether that's a newspaper review, whether that's a journalist that has written something, um, which I don't like, um, or, or which doesn't seem true, I take it really personally, which is kind of really strange 'cause I should've, I should've been able to overcome that after 20 years, and I'm almost there, Stephen.

Steven Bartlett 9:09 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 9:09 I'm almost there. But one of the reasons I'm happy to talk about it is 'cause I know s- I'm, I know I'm not alone, I know there are many, many people out there who are high achievers, who've done brilliant things in life, but are still burdened with their own voice of doubt. And through all of these challenges I've done, I've been able to really build that confidence and I'm, I'm, I'd say I'm a few hundred meters from the summit now of peak confidence.

Steven Bartlett 9:35 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 9:36 And I can't wait until I'm there. I hope I do r- I h- I hope I reach that point.

Steven Bartlett 9:41 What is it about those challenges and the sort of, slow, monotonous nature of those challenges, or just the challenges themselves, or challenge as a, you know, as a, as a construct itself that helped you to build confidence? 'Cause I'm... One of the most frequent questions I'm asked in the comments section of this podcast, or on Instagram, or anywhere else is, um, "How do I build my confidence?" And I think we live in a culture, especially on Instagram, where it seems like everyone else is super confident and chasing their dreams, and we, we never get to hear the whispers of their self-doubt.

Ben Fogle 10:12 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:12 So it f- might feel like we're the only ones. So I guess my question is, uh, w- how d- how, how did those challenges build your confidence?

Ben Fogle 10:20 Mm-hmm. It, it, it, it happened by accident. So that's the first thing to say. I didn't chase it thinking, "This is going to help." It, it was like a slow series of blocks that were built. So it started when I failed my A levels and I went off traveling. I went to Costa Rica, a place that I know you love.

Steven Bartlett 10:36 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 10:37 And I went to university out there. And I, and I think it was spending time in a different country, uh, i- in a different country, country with a different culture, different language, different religion, away from home, away from mum and dad. And, and first of all, I had to kind of think on my own. I couldn't defer to other people. Up until that point, I'd always kind of, "Dad, what do you-" (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 10:59 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 10:59 "... what do you think? Mum, what do you... Should I do..." You know, I, I, I, I didn't trust my own judgment. So first of all, that was gone, so I had to stand or fall on my own decisions. And then secondly, just the immersion in this exciting new place was just... I mean, it just... It, it was the most exciting year I've ever had, if I'm to be really honest. And I decided then that, that that's what I wanted from life. I didn't want to conform by getting, you know, I, I, I didn't want the degree, the, the, um, the job, the mortgage, the sitting in an office. I didn't want to go down that conventional route, but that is-

Steven Bartlett 11:37 Why?

Ben Fogle 11:38 Because I didn't, I didn't feel like a conformist. I di- I didn't want to be a sheep. I wanted to be the shepherd. I didn't want to just conform to the expectations of what society deems as successful.

Steven Bartlett 11:52 Why?

Ben Fogle 11:53 Because-

Steven Bartlett 11:53 'Cause I'm just making sure you're not playing... You're not, you're not doing it just for the sake of devil's advocate.

Ben Fogle 11:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 11:58 Just to go against-

Ben Fogle 11:59 No, not at all. I'm not... I'm actually not a contrarian. I'm not someone who says left just because-

Steven Bartlett 12:05 Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Fogle 12:05 ... the other person has said right. I'm really not a contrarian. If anything, p-... for someone who doesn't like criticism, I should probably stand back and therefore I should sit on the fence and-

Steven Bartlett 12:14 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 12:14 ... become the sheep. But I- I- I'm- I'm... You're gonna discover as we chat, I- I'm a ball of contradictions.

Steven Bartlett 12:20 Yeah, we all are.

Ben Fogle 12:21 So- so- so nothing kind of makes sense. Um, I just know what I have learnt over the years. But for me, I, uh, conformity, maybe I was stripped of that just by the fact that I couldn't conform when it came to exams. So, I couldn't conform to what the- what the system wanted me to conform to, and therefore I wasn't gonna conform when it came to other things. I'll wear shorts all year round. I'm- I'm not... You know, I stopped wearing a suit ages ago. I kind of slowly, as my confidence has build, ha- has built, I've found myself straying even further from conformity. I think I'm gonna end up one of those ridiculous kind of English eccentrics wearing a bow tie.

Steven Bartlett 13:01 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 13:01 You know, you know the one-

Steven Bartlett 13:02 Go for it.

Ben Fogle 13:02 ... like walking around with a cat, stroking it.

Steven Bartlett 13:04 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Fogle 13:05 Kind of-

Steven Bartlett 13:05 Yeah, yeah.

Ben Fogle 13:05 Uh, because I kind of... That- that's how... There- there is this kind of... There's an enemy that I have never, I still haven't really fully found, but I knew I wouldn't find that person sitting in an office on a computer, um, in a job that society expected me to take just so that I could follow the narrative. And the narrative being, as I've kind of explained, you know, getting a good job that you can then, um, get- get a promotion. You get the- the good wage.

Steven Bartlett 13:37 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 13:37 You might get a bonus. You can buy your house. You can get your car. You marry. You get the dog. You have the children. And then you end up retiring, and then you do all the things you want to do. And here's the key, because is it the journey or the destination?

Steven Bartlett 13:53 For me, it's 100% the journey.

Ben Fogle 13:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:55 Yeah. I mean, the destination-

Ben Fogle 13:55 But so many people don't see it that, but you s-

Steven Bartlett 13:57 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 13:57 But this is where you and I have quite a lot in common.

Steven Bartlett 13:59 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 13:59 Okay. We're, we're... Maybe, uh, the, the, what we're doing now in life is very, very different-

Steven Bartlett 14:06 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 14:06 ... but the fact that you will suddenly just wake up one day and go-

Steven Bartlett 14:09 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 14:09 ... "I'm gonna, I'm gonna resign from, from this ��..."

Steven Bartlett 14:12 Yeah, no, honestly, it sounds, everything you're saying... Like I- I wouldn't make this about you, but I feel like I've been on the same journey, as you're saying, with the, you know, one day I might have the dog and whatever, which is just trying to get closer and closer to who I actually am.

Ben Fogle 14:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:22 And, um, trying to find the courage, the strength to, um, not allow society to write, to tell me what my st- how my story has to be.

Ben Fogle 14:31 Yeah, so whose story... And this is the thing, isn't it? Whose story is it?

Steven Bartlett 14:34 Yeah, it's-

Ben Fogle 14:34 Is it yours or someone else's?

Steven Bartlett 14:36 Of course it's someone else's story, and it was written at another time, in another age, if we're talking about marriage-

Ben Fogle 14:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 14:41 ... and these constructs in our society for someone else in the circumstances they lived in, and they probably weren't happy anyway. So, to think that that same narrative and storyline would be... would equal happiness in Steven Bartlett's life in 2021 is, uh, you know, probably patently false. Like, uh...

Ben Fogle 14:58 But don't you find this strange? I'm not gonna, no, I'm not gonna-

Steven Bartlett 15:00 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 15:00 ... tell your whole thing, although I'd be quite happy to-

Steven Bartlett 15:02 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 15:02 ... 'cause I think you're a fascinating person. But it is strange, isn't it, that our ch- uh, I don't think you ha- you don't have kids.

Steven Bartlett 15:07 No, not yet.

Ben Fogle 15:07 Okay. So- so I've got two young children, age 10 and 11. So, uh, obviously, I'm really aware of the system that they're now in that failed me, and I- and I'm really nervous about that. Fortunately, I married someone who's really intelligent (laughs) and has the thickest skin you'll ever meet on anyone in the world. So actually, my children are pretty resilient-

Steven Bartlett 15:26 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 15:26 ... much more than I was, and- and I owe all that to my wife. But I digress. If- if you think about it, it's still a strange thing that children are expected from the age of, I don't know, four or five to go off to nursery and then to school where they're in a classroom with four walls. It might have a window if you're lucky.

Steven Bartlett 15:44 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 15:44 Uh, you've got some teachers that may or may not be really invested in their job. I don't want this, that to sound disparaging to all teachers, 'cause I know a lot of teachers put a lot of hard work in. But it's still a gamble as to whether you're gonna get those that are just doing it for the job-

Steven Bartlett 15:57 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 15:57 ... or those that are really passionate and driven. And then it's just about ticking those boxes, isn't it? Get the exam grades that the government have set so that they can then go, "Look, hurrah, we're doing a great system. Yeah, GCSE grades are all up. A level grades are all up. It's- it's all looking great. Look at the number of people going to university." And I'm like, hang on, what is this expectation that everyone should go to second- to further education, to university? It's nuts. I get people calling me or e- e- emailing me, getting in touch with me on social media saying, "How- how could... Do you think I should do a, uh, degree in filmmaking and in broadcast at university?" I'm like, "No."

Steven Bartlett 16:35 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 16:35 "Get an apprenticeship job. If I could do that, I'd take on apprenticeships. No, work your way, get experience." And, uh, and- and it just... I find it really odd that in 2021, we haven't changed the model.

Steven Bartlett 16:50 Yeah. I- I- I did a TV show called, um, called Secret Te- Secret Teacher with Channel 4, and I was... I had the same bewilderment about the education system and what, how it was incentivized for grades and league tables and not based on the child's, like, intrinsic passions and who they want to become. Because obviously, for me, I was running multiple businesses in the school, all the school chips, had done all the vending machine deals so our school made money from the vending machines, and yet I was kicked out because I wouldn't go to health and social care and put- push a plastic baby around the school. Like, I wasn't interested in that. So, like, the school viewed me as lazy, but really, if you think about it, the school was lazy for not taking the time to understand who I was at that age. But in filming that show, I learned something very valuable about h- how the whole system works. So I went inside the school, got to sit down with the head teacher, and I was like, "How does this system work?" And he said, um, "The better the grades we get, the more students come to the school, and we get paid per student." So he gets, uh, four, let's say 4,000 pounds from the government per student that they have. So his whole incentive is grades. Grades, grades, grades. And it's just like a business. They have customers, and the more customers they get, the more money they make. And then as it, as you go up the, you know, the- the- the institutional ladder or whatever, universities are the same. The more they send to university, the better their- their rankings. If their rankings are good, more parents will choose that school. It's a business, and it's incentivized by money at the heart of it. And if at some point you could take the money out of the system, um, then you'd be able to fix it. But that poor head teacher, he was the CEO, and he said, "I won't be able to buy pencils if we have...... a hundred less students come next year, so we better be on that league table. Um, and then I realized what was, what was wrong with it. You know, these are good-meaning people-

Ben Fogle 18:27 Of course.

Steven Bartlett 18:27 ... incentivized badly.

Ben Fogle 18:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 18:29 Um-

Ben Fogle 18:30 And it's h- And it's how we change the system though, you know, uh, c- 'cause that's, this is where I could turn the tables on you and go, "Listen, you've done these incredible, um, startups. You've been incredibly successful." And I, I know there have been a couple of entrepreneurs who have attempted, dabbled in the school, uh, model, and h- how do you do it? It's kind of obvious to me, one of the problems is that there's so many children, how do you make it financially viable to give everyone access to, um, you know, a, a, a, a fair education for them?

Steven Bartlett 19:02 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 19:02 And to, to have bespoke systems for every single pupil costs a lot of money. But I, uh, i- in the same way as I'm talking about apprenticeships, you know, I'm, I'm a keen advocate of, like, a national service, not a military one, but I think everyone aged 18 should go off and spend a month with the NHS, with, um, the fire service, with the police service, um, just volunteering-

Steven Bartlett 19:24 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 19:24 ... to see what ... or maybe working in the school system.

Steven Bartlett 19:26 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 19:26 And, uh, and if you imagine now that if, if all parents got invested in the school and volunteered to go in and help with the classes and help paying for different things, I just think our educatio- our education system could be in a different place.

Steven Bartlett 19:43 I completely agree.

Ben Fogle 19:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:45 I think it's, um ... I've, I, I did say when I left Social Chain that the challenge I would take on would be the education system. So who, who knows? Let's see. But, uh, I, I came to learn that it's, like, anchored in place from all angles-

Ben Fogle 19:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:55 ... by parents-

Ben Fogle 19:56 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:56 ... who believe that success for them as a parent means their kid going to university, so my mom w- disowned me because it made her look bad-

Ben Fogle 20:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 20:04 ... that I, that I left the system. Then you have employ-

Ben Fogle 20:06 But culturally for lots of people, it is still-

Steven Bartlett 20:08 Oh, my god. My mum's ... yeah.

Ben Fogle 20:08 ... a really, really, really important thing.

Steven Bartlett 20:10 Yeah. My mom's African, so-

Ben Fogle 20:11 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 20:11 ... she left school at seven years old.

Ben Fogle 20:13 And, and, and all of my friends who live i- i- in various countries in Africa or, or in Latin America, it is, or India, it's still t- to have further education, and by the way, obviously, to, to have further education for vocational work, like being a doctor or an engineer, you know, uh, uh, we, we really rely on, on all of that. But I think we have to change our attitudes 'cause can you imagine, Stephen, this is what I, I find really shocking, I, I work with people now, eh, uh, who are, um, working on production, who've left university with 40 grand of debt.

Steven Bartlett 20:45 (laughs) Yeah.

Ben Fogle 20:46 And, and they're now, and they're scrabbling to pay that back and get a job in the world that they want to work in, in this post-pandemic or middle of pandemic, um, world that we're in right now. I mean, that cannot be a good way to start your life, kinda in debt. Is that not part of the system?

Steven Bartlett 21:02 It's awful. And it's so unnecessary. And in you- what you spoke to earlier on about internships, for me, is, is the answer, g- getting experience, right?

Ben Fogle 21:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:09 However that might be. And, uh, at my company, we employed 700 people at the time that I left, and I c- couldn't tell you who had a university education or not. It just, it was such, uh, low down on the list of things that actually mattered. Number one is obviously-

Ben Fogle 21:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:23 ... what are they capable of in terms of experience? Um, and then the piece of paper, I didn't, I didn't have a fucking clue who had gone where or what they'd studied 'cause it just doesn't matter in reality.

Ben Fogle 21:33 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:34 Um, but anyway, I wanted to, to ask you, get back to one of the points you said earlier. You said, um, you don't think you'll ever ... you're not sure if you'll ever find out who you really are. Could you expand on that? What do you mean?

Ben Fogle 21:46 Well, I think we're all the, the, the product, I suppose, of our experiences and who we are.

Steven Bartlett 21:52 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 21:53 And, and I think if you look at, if, if you look at life as this journey and not just a destination, then we're constantly evolving and changing and, and growing. And I think y- however much you try to be yourself, you, you, you become a bit chameleon-like, and, and you end up, y- you end up kind of bl- the lines between who you are and what everything else is does begin to blur a little bit. So the, the way I look at it, you know, I started off as this deeply unconfident, shy child that then kind of morphed into, you know, h- how I started when I was on one of the first reality shows, which was called Castaway. I was sent to live on an island for a year, and then I kind of became this posh real- reality show contestant. And then I started working in daytime TV, and I became a daytime TV presenter. And then I kind of became a broadcaster, and, and you're ... I, I see it all the time, you become stereotyped. So you, whenever, whene- whenever your name is, is written, it will say, you know, it will have either, uh, an amount that you made or it will have the company that you started, but is that really, is that really you? So if, so if you or I went on Strictly Come Dancing now, by the way, that would be changed instantly, and it would then be Stephen from Strictly Come Dancing or Betty 'cause you're only ... you're, you're as, you're remembered for the last big thing. And that constantly changes, but it then means it's quite hard to leap away from that. So if you're suddenly gonna decide, actually, I, I'm gonna become a, a, a, an MP now-

Steven Bartlett 23:30 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 23:30 ... people will be like, "Well, n- hang on. No, no, that's not the narrative." And what happens, I, I think what happens is you, you become blinded by people going, "I'm just not really sure this is right," because that's not, that's not really who you are. That's not part of the narrative that I think you were going down for the book that you're writing of your life. And I don't mean the, the physical book-

Steven Bartlett 23:53 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 23:53 ... but just the, the metaphorical one. So-

Steven Bartlett 23:56 Speaking of books-

Ben Fogle 23:57 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 23:58 ... in my book, I have a chapter called Resisting Your Labels.

Ben Fogle 24:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:00 And it's exactly this, exactly what you said.

Ben Fogle 24:02 Yeah. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:02 So I refer to it as your label.

Ben Fogle 24:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:04 And I, I say that your, your label comes with a set of instructions-

Ben Fogle 24:08 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:08 ... implicit instructions about how you have to behave-

Ben Fogle 24:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:10 ... going forward. So my labels would be, I don't know, Black social media CEO.

Ben Fogle 24:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:15 ... and with that comes a set of instructions-

Ben Fogle 24:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:17 ... as to how I'm expected to behave in the future-

Ben Fogle 24:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:19 And that can be imprisoning, right?

Ben Fogle 24:21 Mm-hmm. Of course.

Steven Bartlett 24:21 And, uh, what, so when, the reason I wrote that in the chapter is because leaving Social Chain, I have that same, like, existential moment where you're like, "Okay, so who the fuck am I?"

Ben Fogle 24:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:28 Uh, you know, and society is going, "You'll be safest if you just fucking carry on with the social-

Ben Fogle 24:33 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:33 ... media CEO thing."

Ben Fogle 24:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:34 But at my heart I'm like, no, I'm, uh, uh, I, no one was born with a passion for something that didn't exist when I was born, social media.

Ben Fogle 24:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:41 I'm a guy with a bunch of interests, music and creating stuff, and-

Ben Fogle 24:44 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 24:45 ... curiosity. And how do I go back to those fundamentals for my life and not the label?

Ben Fogle 24:49 Yeah. Well, the la- I- I'm- I'm slightly obsessed with the label because society loves to label us. And, uh, and- and it's, and you'll never get away from that. But you, I say you never get away from it, it will always be there in the context of social media and the- the- the print press and- and, uh, um, broadcast journalism. But you can... I- I have tried to challenge the status quo a number of times with different things that I have done in terms of challenges, um, and other things. The- the- the problem is that I did so many of those challenges to get away from just the daytime TV presenter or just the reality show person that then I became the adventurer-

Steven Bartlett 25:30 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 25:31 ... who does those things. And the expectations, you know, whenev- wh- when I climbed Everest two years ago, part, uh, part of the disappointment was people going, "Oh, yeah, of course you'll do it. Of course you'll get up. But that's what you do. Yeah, of course you'll get up the mountain." I'm like, "It's not quite as simple as that."

Steven Bartlett 25:46 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 25:46 That's... You know, I'm not a natural mountaineer, you know, this is the boy who was hopeless at sport. It's still a m- tremendous challenge. But I- I love, I love just testing failure, 'cause I'm re- deeply fearful of failure 'cause of having so much of it at, i- in- in- in my early childhood, you know, just to- to- to back up some of the data I've already given you about how hopeless I was as a child. You know, I ended up going to about five different schools. I actually went to three different universities in the end. Um, uh, took my driving test eight times. So it- it kind of, it... Failure became a really f- a word that I was really fearful of. And- and as I get older, I find myself actually, kind of, um... I find myself confronting failure on purpose as much as I can to- to- to try and become less fearful of it. I think you have to confront your demons, believe it or not, and, uh, and failure. So if- if we go back to the challenges, for example, um, 'cause they're- they're one of the things that- that, uh, kind of have really defined me. You know, I somehow managed to row across the Atlantic Ocean. I should've, I should've quit there, really, you know, 49 days in a little boat, you know. For- for those who never saw it, it was a 20-foot rowing boat, you know, a- a couple of oars, me and- and an Olympic rower, and it's pretty dangerous out there. It's the middle of the Atlantic Ocean, you've got waves that are 30 feet tall. We... Our boat got capsized, we nearly drowned, we... You know, it- it was the most amazing adventure, but also pretty scary and quite dangerous. And I did that. And reaching the other end of that is still probably the biggest achievement of my life. And, you know, a lot of... My wife sometimes says, "Why do you not just quit there? Because quit while you're ahead." Same I could say to you, "Come on, you've, you've did this amazing tech startup."

Steven Bartlett 27:38 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 27:39 Uh, and I think a lot of people would think that. "You've made all this money. What... Just sit and enjoy it." But- but that's not... But then you're just taking life like the destination, and you're thinking that, "Well, there you are, so money is everything." And- and- and money, I think... And money is a really fascinating thing for me, because I am not money motivated. I know people may go, "Well, you can only say that when you've made enough money to not be motivated by money," and they have a point. Money buys security, money gives you the opportunity to do some of these big challenges. I'm- I'm awa- I told you there's lots of contradictions here.

Steven Bartlett 28:11 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 28:12 Um, and I'm aware of- of all of those things. But we also live in a world by s- where success is defined by your monetary value. So when I... You know, if I google you and I look you up, every single one has a- a sum of money of various values right

Ben Fogle 28:30 next to you. It's- it's next to your bio.

Steven Bartlett 28:31 Yeah, yeah, yeah. (laughs)

Ben Fogle 28:32 So listen, by the way, I think it's something you should be really proud of, if- if you have, if you have managed to make that that much money, I think that is te- that is your Everest, that is testament to- to dreams that lots of people have. But I think we need to change this notion that being wealthy is a sign of success in life. If you- if you look at the model, the- that, uh, Jacinda Ardern was trying to do in- in New Zealand, it was to change gross national, um, product, to- to- to change what the country's values are by including the happiness index, and the kindness index, and how, what- what a good nation you are and how healthy you are, and your obesity levels. You bring into all of those things, 'cause for me, as a parent, I want my children to have the security of having enough money to put food on their plate and a roof over their heads. But whether they make huge amounts of money is kind of irrelevant, as long as they are good, rounded, kind, happy individuals.

Steven Bartlett 29:33 Yeah, uh, I think you've na- hit the nail on the head. This is actually why my book is called Happy Sexy Millionaire-

Ben Fogle 29:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:37 ... because when I was 18, all I wanted in life was to be, uh, as it says on the front page of my diary, Range Rover Sport, uh, million pounds before I was 25-

Ben Fogle 29:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:45 ... because I was... It's the same, similar to what you've described, the thing that had invalidated me as a child-

Ben Fogle 29:50 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:50 ... was being the only poor family in a middle class area-

Ben Fogle 29:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 29:55 ... and never having anything, no birthdays, no Christmases, never went on holiday. So obviously that was my insecurity, and I chased it as an adult.

Ben Fogle 30:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 30:01 And then I got it, and then it, you know, slipped through your fingers, yeah.

Ben Fogle 30:04 And by- and by the way, just to reiterate, I c- I- I think to have a goal like that-

Steven Bartlett 30:08 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 30:08 ... is so important, whatever your goal is.

Steven Bartlett 30:10 Yeah, it is.

Ben Fogle 30:10 I'm- I'm just saying, I think to- to have the m- the pure monetary goal-... maybe isn't necessarily for, for everyone now-

Steven Bartlett 30:19 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 30:19 ... for children. Shouldn't necessarily be the priority. It can be a, it can be a byproduct of being successful. You know, when, when... I'm sure you get the same thing when, when I go and give talks in schools and I go, "So, what does everyone want to be when they're older," you know? I get a, a large number who just want to be famous.

Steven Bartlett 30:35 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 30:35 And, and I always say something that's, "It's all very well. I get why you want to be famous, but there needs to be substance to that fame."

Steven Bartlett 30:43 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 30:43 "So, you need to be famous because you have succeeded in business, because you're a great footballer, because you're a great actor or actress." And, uh, and, and then as a byproduct of all of that, you can become a great millionaire and, and, um, and, and, and sort of reach those dreams as well.

Steven Bartlett 31:01 Yeah. So, uh, again, exactly what you've just said there, I think there's a... The distinction for me is, like, whether the goal was intrinsically or extrinsically motivated.

Ben Fogle 31:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:09 And the kid there that says he wants to be famous is pure... Is actually saying, "I would like people to like me."

Ben Fogle 31:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:15 "I want admiration."

Ben Fogle 31:16 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:16 My goals as, when I was younger were clearly, "I wanna fit in."

Ben Fogle 31:19 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:20 I wrote millionaire-

Ben Fogle 31:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:21 ... but what I meant was, "I'm insecure and I want to fit in."

Ben Fogle 31:24 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:24 And obviously upon reaching that goal, because it wasn't ever intrinsic, it wasn't ever something that I wanted inside of me-

Ben Fogle 31:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 31:30 ... it was just to try and satisfy the approval of others-

Ben Fogle 31:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 31:32 ... it felt like nothing. One of the things that's integral to performing at the highest level is nutrition. It's something that I, I guess I took a long time to finally believe. But that is why having Huel as a sponsor for this podcast is such a privilege, because there was a time in my life, especially when I was early in my business career, where I wasn't getting the vitamins, the minerals, and I wasn't having a sort of nutritionally complete diet. I was... If you look at some of my old photos, I was definitely lacking protein as well. And a lot of that, maybe it was an excuse, was because I was, um, I was busy. And when I discovered Huel, when a guy called Mike walked past me in the office wearing a Huel T-shirt and shaking a little bottle, and, you know, upon my curiosity of asking what was in that and why he was drinking it, it really, really did change my life. It's almost religious, my love for Huel, but for good reason. And if you haven't checked it out, I would, um, I would implore you to check it out because it's only gonna do good in your life. When you asked, asked me earlier about whether I believe the journey or the destination, I just don't think the destination exists. Every time you get there, it moves off into the distance like a mirage.

Ben Fogle 32:34 Yeah, because as soon as you've got that car, you'll want the better car.

Steven Bartlett 32:37 Yeah. It's the... Yeah.

Ben Fogle 32:37 As soon as you've got the house, you'll want the house in the South of France.

Steven Bartlett 32:41 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 32:41 So, we're constantly changing our goalposts because we, we... I think it's human nature. You know, the grass is always greener. The- I think of all the sayings, I really do think that is the one. We all look at other people, and, and social media is a fascinating medium now, isn't it? Because effectively, social media, one of the reasons I think it's having such a negative impact... And when I say social media, you know, the, the kind of Twitter, Instagram, why I think it can have a lot of negative impacts on people is because it's, it's almost, it makes people feel jealous because people are projecting a, a, a... It's... I don't want to use the word fakery, but-

Steven Bartlett 33:18 No, it's fake. (laughs)

Ben Fogle 33:18 It's a- It's, it is an edited world, isn't it?

Steven Bartlett 33:20 Of course.

Ben Fogle 33:20 However, whatever photo you do-

Steven Bartlett 33:22 Yeah, it is. Yeah.

Ben Fogle 33:22 ... it's a, it's a tiny second of your life that you've thought about how you're gonna compose that photograph-

Steven Bartlett 33:27 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 33:27 ... or the image that you want to project how you're living. And, uh, and I think it, it... That is all built on this notion of, of wanting what other people have.

Steven Bartlett 33:38 But it's even worse because then you get ranked on it.

Ben Fogle 33:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:41 Likes, comments.

Ben Fogle 33:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:42 And then, and then, you know, you post, you post a certain photo and then the likes are down half-

Ben Fogle 33:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 33:47 ... and you think, "Oh my God, I'm fucking ugly."

Ben Fogle 33:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:49 You think the world has dis- (laughs)

Ben Fogle 33:50 I, can I put my hand up here (laughs) ? And again in, in, for full clarity-

Steven Bartlett 33:55 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 33:55 ... and honesty, I feel the same.

Steven Bartlett 33:56 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 33:57 I, I, I'm, you know, someone who's 47. You know, I should, I should know better now-

Steven Bartlett 34:02 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 34:02 ... but I still look at, uh, my Instagram accounts and, and if there aren't so many likes or if there's one negative comment amongst hundreds of really positive ones, I just look at, at the, either the low figure or the negative comment. Because I think it's human nature that we're kind of, we're drawn to this, this sort of, um, this notion of competition. And is life a competition?

Steven Bartlett 34:26 I, I, I kinda have wrote about this at, at length and, um, I've realized that value is, um, ob- obviously just relative. So, you know, the analogy I ga- I gave was that I was really happy with my Nokia 3310, but in a world of iPhones, I'm devastated to own a Nokia 3310. It's the same fucking phone. And they, they have these, um, really remarkable studies that show how we attribute value, value to things, including ourselves, where they'll put like three steaks on a menu. And, um, if there's a really expensive steak and a really cheap one, everyone picks the middle one. Three TVs on a shelf, people pick the middle TV because they think that one's too expensive, that one's a piece of shit. And they're just using the context-

Ben Fogle 35:06 A- Are you in my head now?

Steven Bartlett 35:07 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 35:07 'Cause this is exactly what I would... This is what I do.

Steven Bartlett 35:09 Yeah, yeah, exactly. So and I, I, my con- There's just... We attri- We attain value by the context we see something in. If you remove the other two TVs, this now becomes the best TV in the world. And it's the same with us. I said, you know, in a world where there's no other humans, I am the prettiest, richest, most successful person on earth.

Ben Fogle 35:25 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 35:25 But you put a couple... And this is the crazy thing about social media. You're comparing yourself to fake, like a fake context. And, and you, you can never win, right? Because you get to see your BTS, your behind the scenes. You look in the mirror and you think, "I've got spots."

Ben Fogle 35:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:39 "And I'm fat. What's that pouch down there?"

Ben Fogle 35:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:41 She... And no one else has got that.

Ben Fogle 35:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:42 So it's a losing game. And, and so I, I implore people, espe- you know, 'cause I worked for 10 years in this fucking game.

Ben Fogle 35:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:47 So I implore people just to make their context way healthier and real-

Ben Fogle 35:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:52 ... um, and for me that means that I mute 95% of the people I follow.

Ben Fogle 35:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:56 I have like... If I go on my Instagram now, there'll be 15 people.

Ben Fogle 35:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 35:59 And five of them are in this room. Do you know what I mean?

Ben Fogle 36:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:02 'Cause I just don't wanna play these games. And even though I'm aware of it, my lazy CEO brain has been wired from the... for, for 10,000 years to make snap judgments, snap judgments to

Steven Bartlett 36:15 keep me alive. I can't stop it.

Ben Fogle 36:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:17 ... you know? I- I- So, I just have to be conscious about the way I use these tools.

Ben Fogle 36:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:22 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 36:23 I th- I mean, I think it's a, it's a fascinating world and again, as a father, with young kids, who are-

Steven Bartlett 36:28 It's terrifying.

Ben Fogle 36:28 ... embarking into that world, I, I, I, I'm struggling to find the tools to arm them for the battle ahead.

Steven Bartlett 36:36 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 36:37 And, and I'm aware that they can be fantastically useful. That, you know, the, the, it's amazing the, the, the interactions that you can get, you know? It's, it's how I'm here today. I wouldn't be here w- if it, if it wasn't for, uh, social media, chatting to you now. So, I- I'm aware of the beauty of being able to share things, it's just how we get away from, kind of, the, the fakery. If-

Steven Bartlett 37:00 Mm.

Ben Fogle 37:00 ... if that is the term to use.

Steven Bartlett 37:02 And, and the abuse you were talking about a second ago, negative comment, one negative comment-

Ben Fogle 37:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 37:05 ... can throw you off.

Ben Fogle 37:06 Mm-hmm. I'm, uh, the kind of, the, the whole world of trolling fascinates me 'cause deep down, I just know that those people that write the nasty comments sometimes aren't even real. Sometimes they're just disgruntled and it's probably no different to how life would be in a pub. There would be some person in there that would go, "Rah, rah, rah." Muttering under their breath. The problem is, on social media, it get, it gets kind of brought to the surface and for whatever reason, I think we probably know, newspapers love to then regurgitate what that single individual spotty teenager in their bedroom has written, uh, as, uh, uh, as validation. They sort of validate it.

Steven Bartlett 37:51 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 37:51 So, I- I had a, uh, funny enough during the first lockdown, my daughter thought it would be nice to get the nation to sing Happy Birthday to the Queen.

Steven Bartlett 37:59 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 38:00 And, uh, I realized there's lots of people who aren't monarchists. I, I understand that we're in a country where not everyone agrees on the same thing. But I thought it was quite a nice sentiment. And foolishly, I decided to let her use my, uh, Twitter account to kind of ask people to do it. Big mistake. We got death threats and worse. Uh, I mean, the vile abuse to my nine-year-old daughter. Partly my fa- you know, I shouldn't have allowed her to u- I, I shouldn't have shared this idea in a social, um, uh, media platform with a g- with, with my daughter, I realized. But I was amazed at the vile, vitriolic abuse. And that was partly kind of enhanced by the press, who jumped on a few negative comments, wrote about it. And as soon as they had written about it, uh, it went, it, I mean, it, uh, uh, I had to give up Twitter. I- I actually, um, abandoned it and haven't, I haven't gone back to it since.

Steven Bartlett 38:56 Really?

Ben Fogle 38:57 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 38:59 Crazy. There's a lot of talk at the moment about what social platforms can do for this type of behavior, and I just, I always come back to the point w- of like... I'm gonna tell a little bit of a story here. So, when I worked in Silicon Valley for a little while, for about a year when I was 20, after I left my first company, and I got to see behind one of the big social platforms that was emerging at the time, and it taught me something about humans. Because someone in the daytime, who is a very civilized school teacher, just c- being completely honest, would get his cock out at night because of anonymity.

Ben Fogle 39:32 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:32 And what it taught me was that people who, good people are capable of pretty alarming things-

Ben Fogle 39:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:38 ... if you allow them to cover their face.

Ben Fogle 39:40 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:40 And there's a piece of jealousy and evilness and darkness in all of us.

Ben Fogle 39:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:45 Um, and anonymity allows you to be both.

Ben Fogle 39:47 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:48 And so, uh, until platforms don't allow people, uh, until we verify people, who people are when they sign up-

Ben Fogle 39:54 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:54 ... and there's no, and there's no real, and there's real world consequences of the behavior, it's never gonna stop.

Ben Fogle 39:59 Yeah, and I agree, I agree. It's the anonymity thing. So, you know, uh, the number of people that say, "Just get on. Just, just ignore it." And I d- I, largely, so I still use Instagram and occasionally, you know, the odd troll flares up and I do ignore it now. Um, occasionally, you know, I- I get a bit more stung than, than other times. But I think, you know, it's symbolic of the world that we're, we're living in right now, and I think anonymity can be quite a dangerous thing.

Steven Bartlett 40:26 Wokeness.

Ben Fogle 40:27 Wokeness. Woke- wokeness is fascinating.

Ben Fogle 40:32 Wokeness is, it's fascinating and it's really complex now, especially as a documentary maker. I go off to, to, um, uh, countries all around the world. And, and I've been accused of, of, um, gross xenophobia just because I go to these countries now and maybe make a documentary about a, a, a local group of people who live there. It's seen by the extreme woke brigade as being, as othering people. This is the, this is the woke term right now, "Don't other people."

Steven Bartlett 41:08 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 41:09 So, by, by taking a document- I know. I mean, it is laughable, but they're quite, but they have-

Steven Bartlett 41:13 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 41:13 ... quite a strong voice. And I, and I've, you know, I've had to talk about this on-

Steven Bartlett 41:17 Sorry, what's othering people?

Ben Fogle 41:18 ... national radio. To other people is to make them feel like they aren't a part of normal. I mean, this comes, we- we've come full circle right now. So, othering is to make people, um, kind of feel like they don't-

Steven Bartlett 41:34 Like they're specimens or something?

Ben Fogle 41:35 Yes. Specimens, basically.

Steven Bartlett 41:36 Okay.

Ben Fogle 41:36 So, to other. So, effectively going, if you imagine, you know, going to a group, um, of indigenous, native, um, uh, people who live in the Brazilian Amazon, where once that was seen as, you know, uh, anthropological study of how people live and what they do. Now, it's seen as sneering and laughing at people because you're othering them and you're showing, "Look at, look at them still hunting with spears and bows and arrows." Now, th- this is the wokery brigade who interpret it like that. I interpret it as a great celebration because more often than not, I kind of is seeing how we should be living and how we should be, um-... treating nature and the flora and fauna around us, rather than living in big cities where we're fantastically wasteful and we're destroying the planet. Actually, th- th- th- this kind of nomadic way of life, or this very simple hand to mouth way of life, I- I go and I- I feel- I feel huge admiration. And I'm not laughing or sneering, but there are lots of people that interpret that form of television as that. Now, I've just given you one form of wokery right now, and there's, it's, uh, so we all have, we have to think about everything we say and everything we do, and is that cultural app- I've just got a kilt. I've been sel- sent a kilt because, um, it's, uh, the big, uh, global climate conference in Glasgow later this year. I'm gonna be up there.

Steven Bartlett 43:05 Hmm.

Ben Fogle 43:05 In Scotland, obviously, the kilt is- is the national dress, and I was asked if I could wear a kilt with a special environmental fabric, so I've agreed to do that. But I can already see wha- when it comes to that, culturally, that-

Steven Bartlett 43:19 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 43:19 By the way, I'm- I'm a quarter Scottish as well, but I'm not even gonna try that-

Steven Bartlett 43:22 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 43:22 ... because it wouldn't- it wouldn't get past the woke police-

Steven Bartlett 43:25 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 43:25 ... 'cause it's cultural appropriation. I'm not-

Steven Bartlett 43:27 I was gonna say, if you went to the Amazon jungle and you saw th- that tribe and you showed up with a spear-

Ben Fogle 43:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 43:31 ... and a skirt. (laughs)

Ben Fogle 43:33 Yeah, yeah. But, but you know, if, so if you look at what Bruce Parry used to do, where he would immerse himself and he would live there, I don't know if you remember Bruce Parry-

Steven Bartlett 43:41 No, I don't.

Ben Fogle 43:41 ... but he- he would go and live there for, l- live there being with a- a- a group of, uh, with a tribe somewhere, and he would adopt their native dress, whether it was just a little, you know, whether it was a very simple skirt, wha- whatever it was, and he would live as they do. I don't know if you could get away with that now, because it would be seen as a mix of cultural appropriation, othering people, um, and it should be... We- we should leave people to live as they do without trying to mimic it. That's- that- that's how it is interpreted by some people.

Steven Bartlett 44:16 Where is all of this wokeness going? Because I feel like it's gaining momentum, and I- and I- I worry about the trajectory. I'm like, it's not, is it gonna come back this way? Because it's been, I feel like society has swung in a woke direction, maybe because of social media, it's kind of like reinforcing- reinforcing all of us in our echo chambers, going, "Yeah, you're, that's perfect. You're perfect. That was good, good. You're bad, bad. That's bad. He's bad. Get him."

Ben Fogle 44:39 But surely you know this probably more than- than I do, that you have extreme wokery on one side-

Steven Bartlett 44:44 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 44:44 ... but then we have the extre- we've got kind of fascism and the complete opposites-

Steven Bartlett 44:50 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 44:51 ... on the other side. And that, 4chan and, and-

Steven Bartlett 44:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ben Fogle 44:54 ... and- and that whole world is- is equally ob- more obnoxious.

Steven Bartlett 45:00 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 45:01 Yeah?

Steven Bartlett 45:01 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 45:01 The- the racism, the xenophobia. And then you've got wokery here, and it's just like everything else in life, it's everything has gone like this.

Steven Bartlett 45:09 Binary.

Ben Fogle 45:09 So you're- you're either in or you're out, you're up or you're down-

Steven Bartlett 45:11 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 45:11 It's black or it's white. It's, there's no middle. And h- h- f- for everything I've just said to you about not wanting to be the sheep and wanting to be the shepherd, (laughs) I- I'd quite like to just be a sheep amongst quite a few others in a field, kind of having a reasonable conversation. It's very, very hard to have a sensible con- conversation now, because people have gone to these extreme sides. It's probably easier for the newspapers to write stories and to highlight the wokery-

Steven Bartlett 45:38 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 45:39 ... than it is to do the-

Steven Bartlett 45:40 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 45:40 ... the fascism, because that's really ugly and- and it's deeply offensive to so many people. But we see it, you know, we know it's on social media, you see what's happening to footballers-

Steven Bartlett 45:50 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 45:50 ... the racist abuse that they get.

Steven Bartlett 45:52 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 45:53 And we do read about it, but the wokery, for some reason, is something we hear about even more. And maybe it's used to try and counterbalance the really ugly side of racism and xenophobia and- and antisemitism, all these things that are equally rising up.

Steven Bartlett 46:09 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 46:09 And I- and I don't know how we get back to this middle, just being a sheep in a field, 'cause I- I, you know, I long for a good, solid conversation. I- I can't sit at a table now with people I don't know really, really well and have a conversation about COVID-

Steven Bartlett 46:25 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 46:25 ... because that's politicized. I can't have a conversation about politics because that's, that- that went ages ago. I can't have a conversation about Brexit. I can't have a- a conversation about Indyref2. Uh, I can't have a conversation about what's happening in- in Northern Ireland. I can't really have a conversation about international policy. And I, by the way, I have more interesting conversations than just these.

Steven Bartlett 46:46 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 46:46 I am actually quite fun sometimes, but I really like debate and I like hearing what other people have. So when I travel to other countries, my favorite thing is chatting about their interpretation of what's going on and- and, uh, and I really thrive on that. But we can't anymore because it's become too emotional. People feel it's really personal to them, or they're too afraid to talk- talk about it in the first place.

Steven Bartlett 47:11 You talked at the start of this conversation about not wanting to be imprisoned by society's conventions.

Ben Fogle 47:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:15 This is a form of imprisonment, isn't it?

Ben Fogle 47:17 Mm-hmm. Of course, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 47:17 And it- and it- and it can be-

Ben Fogle 47:19 Which is maybe one of the reasons why I still find myself drawn to far away places. So the show that I do, New Lives in the Wild, where I go to live with people who've dropped off the grid, they've- they've woken up one day and they've decided, "I- I- I don't want this life anymore." Sometimes they're millionaires, sometimes they're just everyday folk who have got bored of the nine-to-five job and they've gone to live in the jungles of Bali, in a little cabin in Alaska. And, uh, and I really covet their lives. I really admire their lives. I'm really jealous of their lives, because they've simplified it. We live in... We- we make, we've made our lives pretty complicated, haven't we really?

Steven Bartlett 47:56 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 47:57 If you think about it.

Steven Bartlett 47:57 Oh, yeah.

Ben Fogle 47:58 Um, and actually, if you strip it back, what do you really need in life? Well, we, you know, you need shelter, you need food, you need water, some good company. We've really realized that with the pandemic, I think people have realized we're social, we need to have friends and family around. You need a smile on your face.

Steven Bartlett 48:13 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 48:14 And that's kind of it. And everything else-

Steven Bartlett 48:16 Distraction.

Ben Fogle 48:16 ... is a bit... Well, it's a distraction or it's an extra bonus, isn't it? You know, to- to, you know, have a fine wine, or whatever it is you like in life.... but all these people that I've spent time visiting, I've done this series for 10 years now, and I've been to 100 places, um, all around the world. That simplicity is, is really attractive. And they don't worry themselves about the- those big topics I was just, you know, describing there.

Steven Bartlett 48:45 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 48:45 It's, it's, it's kind of unimportant to them. What happens with Brexit doesn't really matter for the person that's chosen to live on a tiny little island up in Norway, who lives hand-to-mouth, catching fish each day. And there's, I, I, I've, I, I find it really kind of hypnotic and mesmerizing to spend time with people who have stripped their lives back to the absolute bare essentials. And the assumption is that, that they're really enduring and they're suffering and they're surviving, but that's not always the case. Sometimes, you, it, it doesn't mean their lives are easy, but almost all of them are happy. Almost all of them have, have abandoned the complexities that many of us are stepping around. They don't have to deal with wokery and trolls. (laughs) You know, all these things are very first world problems, although they're not, actually. They're th- th- th- the developing or the lesser-developed world, I should say, um, uh, uh, suffer from all of these, um, th- th- these things as well.

Steven Bartlett 49:42 I was on a, uh, to speak to the point you just made, I was on a motorbike, like, a little crappy motorbike in Bali, don't know, two weeks ago, and I'm just bombing down the street in the fields, sunshine, walk, going through the little villages, and I had this, like, real overwhelming sense that I'd, I'd lived my life wrong. And I got off the bike and said to my friend, and it's so crazy, and, uh, I don't think me and him will ever forget this moment. Before I could say the words to him, he went, "God, isn't that what life's about?" And it was just being on this bike, having no problems, no care in the world, but also seeing a culture where they all s- they live s- in such a simple manner, that made me reflect on the decisions I was, I've made in my life.

Ben Fogle 50:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:22 And it's such a remarkable thing, and you, as you say, those people are typically, their lives aren't easy, but they seem to be much more at peace than the successful first world, quote unquote, people.

Ben Fogle 50:33 Well, there's, there's, there's a great kind of story that's kind of hypocritical, but I suspect it's true. A, a tourist goes to West Africa. Let's say they're in Senegal. They're on a beautiful beach, staying in a hotel. He, he's on the beach every day, and he sees a fisherman go down and cast his line-

Steven Bartlett 50:48 Oh, I know this story. Yeah, yeah.

Ben Fogle 50:48 ... and catch the, catch a few fish. And, uh, and after the week, he goes to him and says, "Listen, I think, w- why don't you invest in a second rod so that you can catch twice as many fish, and then you can sell twice as many fish, and then eventually get a net, and then you can get a boat, and then you can start selling d- dozens, hundreds of fish, thousands of fish, and earn even more money so that one day you can retire and do what you want to do?" And, and the man who's fishing says, "What? Fish?"

Steven Bartlett 51:15 (laughs) Yeah.

Ben Fogle 51:16 So-

Steven Bartlett 51:16 (laughs) .

Ben Fogle 51:17 ... I, I just, I just think there's a lot to be said in that.

Steven Bartlett 51:19 Very true.

Ben Fogle 51:20 Because it's, it's about chasing these goals and, and what your goal is. And, and I think if we, too many people are kind of blinded by, and again, coming full circle, this notion of life is a destination, and eventually you're gonna reach this nirvana, this, this, this glorious place where everything's perfect, where you, you just lie around a p- I don't know, everyone has different things they dream of. S- you know, someone just wants to go and play golf. I have no idea why. I don't play golf.

Steven Bartlett 51:45 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 51:45 But someone just might want to play golf all day. Someone might want to play cards all day. Someone just might want to just move to the South of France and sit and drink beer all day. Someone might want to go surfing all day. Wha- whatever it is. But there's no reason why you can't be doing that throughout your life. You just have to think outside of the box, don't you? You just have to have this positive attitude, and, you know, this comes back to what I was saying to you. As a child, I, I realized this. If you think you're gonna fail, you're gonna fail. So every driving test, all of those ones I told you I failed, I would get in the car and this booming, deafening voice was saying, "You are going to fail." And sure enough, I'd mount the pavement. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 52:20 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 52:20 I'd, I got stopped by the police once 'cause I wasn't wearing a seatbelt.

Steven Bartlett 52:23 On a driving test?

Ben Fogle 52:23 Yeah, on a driving test. But because it was almost like self-fulfillment of my mind's attitude. And it was only actually working with Olympians that I've done now, when I climbed Everest, I went with Victoria Pendleton, the cyclist. When I rowed the Atlantic, it was with James Cracknell. And I've been lucky enough to work with some other Olympians that I realize you need this absolute confidence verging on arrogance that, "I will get to the top of this mountain. I will reach the South Pole." 'Cause as soon as you go into an event where you're, there's any self-doubt, it's, it's, it, it, it will be self-fulfilling. You must know that. You, you, you must know that.

Steven Bartlett 53:01 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 53:01 But it's impossible to-

Steven Bartlett 53:01 I, I, I love-

Ben Fogle 53:02 ... fake, in my view. Like, I, I really, I'm, I'm quite repelled by this culture of, like, people looking in the mirror and saying, "You are gonna be a millionaire. You are great." But d- because I, my opinion of how beliefs work, like, so I always use this example, this is the fifth, millionth time I've said this, if I were to hold your loved one at gunpoint now and say, "Believe I'm Jesus or I kill them-" Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:22 ... there's nothing you could do to actually believe I was Jesus.

Ben Fogle 53:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:25 You could only lie to me.

Ben Fogle 53:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:27 Because that's not how belief works. B- as you've proven, beliefs take evidence.

Ben Fogle 53:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:31 And you've built that evidence through your challenges.

Ben Fogle 53:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:32 Right? So, like, just, just telling yourself to believe something doesn't work, even if everything is on the line.

Ben Fogle 53:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 53:38 Um, but if I suddenly turn this into wine and then started levitating-

Ben Fogle 53:41 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 53:41 ... you might think, "W- wait, wait a minute."

Ben Fogle 53:43 But this is, but, but you're, you're taking it slightly too literally-

Steven Bartlett 53:47 Okay.

Ben Fogle 53:47 ... when it comes to what that is. So here's the thing. I, I, d- d- th- there's a, a man called Mark Boyle who-

Steven Bartlett 53:53 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 53:53 ... who, um, lives in Ireland, a fascinating man. I thi- I think you should get him on here. He has lived as The Moneyless Man, and he gave up everything and tried to live without any money for a year.

Steven Bartlett 54:04 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 54:04 And he ended up with a, with a house, is, is what he did, by ch- by charming, trading up, uh-

Steven Bartlett 54:10 Oh, interesting.

Ben Fogle 54:10 ... literally just working his, his way through the system, but never, ever, ever using money. It was always trade and barter and borrowing, and I don't think there was any stealing.

Steven Bartlett 54:19 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 54:19 Not that I know of. But I love this notion that he had an absolute confidence that this would work and that he would be able to do it. Now, with something like...... Everest, you're right. Y- y- you couldn't just take someone off the street and say, "Believe you're gonna climb this mountain and you're gonna get to the summit," 'cause y- you need to do the acclimatization. You have to get yourself physically ready. You have to understand about, um, high altitude and, and, and you have to understand the, the, the basics of climbing, at least. Uh, so y- you're right, but if you, even with all that, if you go into that arena, as such, into the mountains, with any doubt, it, it's, i- i- it's going to be a self, um, fulfilling prophecy that you won't succeed. So it's, I think, this idea of belief that you can. You're right, it's much more than just looking in the mirror and going, "I'm gonna be the best musician in the world." This-

Steven Bartlett 55:15 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 55:15 This comes back to schoolkids who-

Steven Bartlett 55:17 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 55:17 ... aspire for fame. You know? I think it's a, a kind of The X Factor, Britain's Got Talent has a lot, has a lot to answer for, because it's kind of made this illusion that anyone can be whatever they want in life. Now, part of my whole, I, I suppose part of, of, of the story that I tell is that y- y- that you can follow your dreams, but I always give, v- y- say that with a caveat, that you have to be reasonable. If your g-

Steven Bartlett 55:44 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 55:44 If your dream is to be a top footballer, mm, you're gonna have to be-

Steven Bartlett 55:47 It was. (laughs)

Ben Fogle 55:48 ... pretty good. Well, there you go, then. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 55:49 And here I am. (laughs)

Ben Fogle 55:50 Well, there you go. But it, but you have to be. But if, if, you know, if, if someone comes up to me and, uh, uh, a youngster says, "I really want to just be, um, a top footballer. I want to play with a Premiership club," I don't see why they can't, but there has to be a, there has to be a base level of pretty brilliant football-

Steven Bartlett 56:06 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 56:06 ... from the start. Do you see what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 56:07 Of course.

Ben Fogle 56:07 So, sir, I think you have to be realistic with those aspirations. If someone wants to be a top neuroscientist or a top doctor, I don't see why they can't, but they have to have... Uh, I, it was gonna be impossible for me. I wanted to be a vet, uh, and I think I would've been quite a good vet, but I just didn't have the academics. So I didn't even get off the start place.

Steven Bartlett 56:27 Y- yeah.

Ben Fogle 56:27 I think it's a really important thing to reiterate to people, that I do believe in that mindset, believe you can. Ant Middleton, who's been on here, he's, he's another keen advocate of that, "Just believe in yourself," this positive mindset. But the positive mindset has to, has to also, um, marry up with ability and skill.

Steven Bartlett 56:47 So I completely agree with the, um, because I genuinely, when I-

Ben Fogle 56:51 I think there's a but coming here.

Steven Bartlett 56:52 N- yeah, no.

Ben Fogle 56:53 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:53 S- it's actually not a, um, a but to your point. It's a, it's a, it's a question about how do you achieve this point, because I completely agree. When I've been asked, um, what my talent was, I was like, "Can't spell, can't do math still, probably dyslexic, just never g- gone to check." Um, but I just always believed. That's what I've always said for my whole life. I always believed I was gonna b- So you think about what I wrote in my diary, as a kid that didn't have a driving test, um, his parents weren't speaking to him, was shoplifting pizzas, "Gonna be a millionaire within four years. Gonna have a Range Rover Sport." It was gonna be my first car. I didn't even ha- hadn't done a... And I, and I genuinely believed it.

Ben Fogle 57:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:26 And for me, that was my m- the gift that life gave me, was this, like, low-key delusional belief, and that took me out of... And so when I was living in Moss Side, stealing pizzas and stuff, I started recording it in my diary and doing little videos, and it's crazy. In the first page of my diary, I lied to my diary. I said, "I'm recording th- these, um, this journey because a production company has asked me to." Because I, it, it-

Ben Fogle 57:51 You lied to yourself then?

Steven Bartlett 57:51 I lied in my own, the f- 'Cause I couldn't, I, I almost didn't know how to say to my diary that this was gonna be part of a j- a story I was gonna tell one day. And I, and it's not that... I will show you my diary, and the first page of it, it's like, "Because, and also because I think I'm gonna have to tell this story one day." That is a guy that saw himself on an island and knew he was getting off the island, and wanted to r- like, wasn't dwelling on it. So I completely agree. I think the only reason I'm here is not because of smarts. My parents were completely broke. Um, obviously, I was, I had privileges of being born in this country. Well, born in Africa, actually. But, um, it was just that I always believed I'd be here. However, when I try and impose that onto people and tell them the importance of self-belief, and I see these people who have got their confidence just absolutely in the bin because of experiences they've had or their dad, when they were four years old, told them that they're a piece of shit, and my fluffy words at, you know, when they're 35 aren't stronger than those words that their dad said to them, you know, I, I struggle to try and tell them how to get to that place of genuine self-belief. Because as I said, you can't fake it. If Stephen had a shred of doubt in Moss Side, I'd still be there. So, like, what do I say to that person?

Ben Fogle 58:57 Well, it, it's the building blocks-

Steven Bartlett 58:59 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 58:59 ... of life, isn't it? It comes back to that. So if you, you know, it... The, the series of challenges and things that I've done in my life have slowly built themselves up. So I started on that year on, uh, l- living on an island in the Outer Hebrides. Now, if you strip that back, it was, it was pretty simple. It couldn't really fail. It was hard work. It was hard being away from people. No, no contact with the outside world. No, no phones, mobiles, family. I didn't see anyone for a whole year, just this small group of people. Well, once I did that, it was kind of, it, that was the fir- that was, like, the foundations. I was like, "Oh my gosh. Well, I've done this." And then, and then I put the next block in, which was running the Marathon des Sables, six marathons in six days. I'd never even run 100 meters, Stephen. And, and suddenly-

Steven Bartlett 59:44 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 59:44 ... here I was, agreeing to run across the Sahara Desert. And I, I managed to get through that. I came last, but-

Steven Bartlett 59:50 You did it.

Ben Fogle 59:50 ... I managed to do it. And, and these building blocks have just gone up. So when you s- d- say to people, y- you know, when you're trying to encourage, as I do as well, people to s- this self-belief, it has to be a realistic self-belief to, of the slow building blocks of life. If we come back to kind of reality shows, 'cause I'm slightly obsessed with reality shows and, and, and this kind of what's happened over the last 20 years. What it's done is it's given people this belief that anyone can become world-famous overnight.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:19 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 1:00:19 A- and, and I've already alluded to, kind of, Britain's Got Talent, X Factor, but Big Brother, Love Island, all of those shows, because it takes everyday folk and it catapults them onto the front pages, a- uh, of newspapers. Five million followers overnight on social media, and earning quite a lot of money. But how long does that last for?... now, for many people, you know, it's the famous Andy Warhol, "Only 15 minutes," it doesn't last very long, because what happens is there's no substance to it, there's no roots. And what happens is the next show comes along and they're cast aside. But what also a lot of people do is that they, the leap from one brick to the next is too high, and if you, if you go too big, it's doomed to failure. I, I remember f- uh, funny enough, I think one of the reasons why me, a reality show contestant, is still working in TV after 21 years, 'cause I should've, my 15 minutes was up a long time ago, I think the reason is more 'cause of the things that I turned down than the things that I, I agreed to do. So, I turned down some pretty big shows, big prime-time Saturday night shows that a lot of people who work in TV would be like, "Oh, I would do anything for that." But the leap was too big, and I didn't believe that, uh, I, I thi- I, I, I think the, the, um, even though I like to confront risks, I like to be realistic with those. So, K2 is a far more dangerous mountain than Everest. I could've gone straight to K2, but, uh, instead, I, I want, I want to do a, a sensible building block, um, up to that ultimate challenge. And I, and I think, right back to television, I think if you, if you, if you take too big a leap, then, um, the, the reality of continued success, um, is eroded away.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:05 When you think about some of those opportunities that you were given that you turned down, what was it about them that made you think it was too big of a leap? 'Cause I'm trying to a- answer the question for my viewer, which is, how do I know if it's too big of a leap?

Ben Fogle 1:02:15 I think you just have to be sensible about what you're capable of. I think... So, it's this really fine line. I, I told you, I'm full of contradictions-

Steven Bartlett 1:02:22 Yeah. (laughs)

Ben Fogle 1:02:22 ... so I'm telling you, you know, I'm sitting here kind of saying to people, "Follow your dreams. Don't be told that you can't do it. Nothing, no dream is too big. Um, you know, believe in yourself and, and, and you're halfway there." You know, I really do believe in all of that. But you also have to be sensible. So, I think I c- okay, so here's the thing. I reckon that I, I'm the son of a, an actress, and I believed that I could be an actor. I always wanted to be an actor. I got rejected by all the drama schools, by the way, 'cause I couldn't remember my lines. But that's a whole other thing. Um, but I still think I could be an actor, and, and I have quite a confidence that I could. But if I was suddenly offered a Steven Spielberg film, yeah, I wouldn't take that now, because my ultimate goal is to try the acting thing at some stage in my life when it's appropriate, but I don't want to do it on s- i- in, in such a big, extreme explosion of public ridicule if it goes wrong. Now, I, I, I... Together with that, I add this sort of confidence that, yes, I will be able to do it, but I'd prefer to start in a little pub theater with 20 people, just on a smaller stage, and build up. Because there has to be, and, and I think we all have to agree with this, there ha- y- as well as this confidence and this self-belief, you have to have the skills.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:45 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 1:03:45 Yeah? If you don't have the skills, there's just no point and we're just being delusional, and it's no different to that Instagram fakery of, of, of showing people this idyllic life, when actually that's just a tiny little one second of actually what was a really miserable weekend, because it was the only time the sun came out and someone, e- threw on a bikini. I didn't throw on a bikini-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:03 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 1:04:03 ... but, you know, you get my point-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:04 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 1:04:04 ... you know, to, to show that instant moment of, of perfection. So, I think there has to be, um, an actual skill. And you have to earn it. I think, you know, this, this instant gratification just doesn't exist. There is a few examples, and y- y- you're, you're one of those, where you were able to write down, "I'm going to be a millionaire, I'm going to have that Range Rover Sport," and you did it. And, and you are what gives so many people hope.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:30 But I failed.

Ben Fogle 1:04:31 Hmm?

Steven Bartlett 1:04:31 I failed in my first company.

Ben Fogle 1:04:33 But, but, d-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:33 The second one was-

Ben Fogle 1:04:34 ... but it doesn't, but it doesn't matter. But, but that doesn't matter. F- surely failure... If you haven't failed, you haven't been trying hard enough.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:39 Yeah.

Ben Fogle 1:04:40 Don't you think? I think, the, the, the people who... 'Cause I, I r- uh, realized that quite early on. If you haven't, if you haven't failed, uh, at various points through your life, then, then you're, you're being too measured with the challenge that you take, and-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:53 Which is a failure, and i- ironically, yeah.

Ben Fogle 1:04:54 Yeah, which is a failure in its-

Steven Bartlett 1:04:55 The biggest failure.

Ben Fogle 1:04:55 ... which is a failure in itself. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:57 Yeah. I, I've, I, I, yeah, I've, so many of, of the things you said there, I was, I was just, you know, I was captivated by. I was wondering whether you're, if you're a... So, you said you were a contradiction at the start of this conversation, but then you've also alluded to the fact that you like to, to not be on either pole-

Ben Fogle 1:05:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:13 ... and you like to be like the sheep in the field-

Ben Fogle 1:05:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:15 ... which actually probably makes sense, because you can appreciate the need for ambition, but then you also appreciate the need to have self-awareness.

Ben Fogle 1:05:21 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:21 Right? So it kinda puts you in the middle of the field somewhere.

Ben Fogle 1:05:23 Well, if you think about it, th- (laughs) it's a really weird thing, 'cause I'm actually, again, true to the, to the contradictions. You know, the son of an actress, I've kind of got the jazz hands and I quite like-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:33 (laughs) Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 1:05:33 ... talking, and I like being on stage, as such, but I'm also still quite shy. So, I kind of like being in the wings, I want to be on the stage, then I want to be in the wings-

Steven Bartlett 1:05:41 (laughs)

Ben Fogle 1:05:41 ... then I want to be on the stage. And, and the same goes for, kind of, h- uh, how I project myself. So, I want to be part of the conversation, but then I don't want to be part of the conversation. I don't, I don't like the uncomfortableness of it. I want to be a politician, but I, I couldn't bear the, you know, the, the, the, the focus and the, the, um, the derision that you're gonna get from one side or the other. A- and I actually think once you've accepted that, 'cause I think a lot of people, I'm sure a lot of people are like that, really. Um, and once you've accepted that's who you are, you just work out how to walk those stepping stones and kind of move around it. And I kind of do this, I dance my way through it and dip in and dip out, and I have moments where I kind of, I, I wish I hadn't, kind of, uh, uh... I wasn't on the middle of that stage, but I am, so I own it.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:31 Mm-hmm.

Ben Fogle 1:06:31 And it's, it's, it's back to this whole thing. I do, I do believe you kind of have to own your narrative. It's very easy to, to let someone else steal it from you.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:40 I think I, I think I actually read that in, on the last page of the first chapter of your book. It said, um...... that the ocean taugh- the ocean had taught me to take control of my own narrative and believe in myself-

Ben Fogle 1:06:51 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:51 ... when you were talking about, um, what you learned from the sea in your book, Inspire: The Lessons from the Wilderness.

Ben Fogle 1:06:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:56 And that taking control of your narrative point really stuck with me, um, because obviously society writes your narrative. (page turns) I had a major announcement this week, as you've probably all seen on social media or in the newspapers, relating to a TV show that I'm doing. And, um, it was just a great, uh, you know, it's a great example of the power of the platform Fiverr.com, because I wanted to, uh, make this announcement using, using visual effects, and visual effects are typically staggeringly expensive. Y- the quotes that I got back from agencies were like 40, 50 grand to make a very short 60-second video in visual effects. It was staggering, right? I wanted to show me turning into a dragon, um, and I used Fiverr.com, who are the sponsor of this podcast, and we made this really cool short 45-second video which shows me transforming into a dragon. Check out the video. Go check out Fiverr.com if you've never used it. It's just the most cost-effective way to get creative services done. I've used it for the last three and a half years of my life. (page turns) One of the things that I picked up a lot of from listening to your interviews and your books

Steven Bartlett 1:07:53 was your, uh, about your relationship with your lovely wife.

Ben Fogle 1:07:55 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:56 And you're both very vocal about the, dare I say, not radical, but the sort of, like, innovative way that you've built your relationship-

Ben Fogle 1:08:06 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:07 ... in various areas. One of the really interesting things to me was this idea that you have preventative marriage counseling?

Ben Fogle 1:08:13 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:15 Tell me about that. And why do I need it?

Ben Fogle 1:08:17 So, (laughs) so my, so my wife, Marina, we've been married for, this'll be our 15th year together.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:23 Wow. Congrats.

Ben Fogle 1:08:23 She's half-Austrian. Thank you. She's half-Austrian, and she's, she's got skin like a rhino. It's unbelievable. Uh, as in (laughs) , as in, can I just say, that, that, uh, in terms of, uh, being, uh, not ever being offended, she's got-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:36 (laughs) .

Ben Fogle 1:08:36 ... glowing skin.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:37 I thought you meant-

Ben Fogle 1:08:38 Her skin is really beau-

Steven Bartlett 1:08:39 (laughs) . (laughs) .

Ben Fogle 1:08:39 It's really beauti- she moisturizes the whole time.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:44 (laughs) .

Ben Fogle 1:08:44 She doesn't have this big, wrinkly gray skin.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:46 You're in trouble.

Ben Fogle 1:08:46 Oh my God, I'm blushing. I'm gonna get in so much trouble for that.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:48 (laughs) .

Ben Fogle 1:08:49 But she is, she, she's really tough. She's really resilient. She's no-nonsense. She doesn't beat about the bush. And we're very, you know, I, I am by my own admission much more sensitive soul. Now, it doesn't mean she isn't sensitive, but, but she's, she kind of calls a spade a spade. Whereas I might say, "Well, that is a spade, but you could, probably could use that as a fork." (laughs) . You see what I mean? I kind of, 'cause I want to please all the people, and I don't want to offend, so I kind of find myself kind of da-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:15 In the middle.

Ben Fogle 1:09:15 ... dancing around a little bit. In the middle, there you go. Whereas Marina has always just been straight down the line, and our, our kind of, our relationship is h- has been built on me being away a lot, 'cause outside of the time of COVID, I'm probably traveling eight months of the year. So there's a lot of time away, but w- that's how it's always been, and, and we have a really solid relationship. And, and, and we, we had a terrible tragedy about, um, six years ago when we lost our third child, uh, uh, a little boy, Willem, who was stillborn, so he, so three weeks before he was due to be born naturally, um, unfortunately Marina had something called a placental abruption, and he died. And, and, and it was an awful, awful experience that I've kind of spoken about before, but it, it affected us profoundly, much more than I thought it would. The, the, the feel, the, the, the, this emotion of losing someone you'd never had a chance to meet is, is something I'd never experienced before, um, and I couldn't quite understand my own emotions, and, and, and added to that, when this all happened, I was on the other side of the world. I thought Marina was going to die. So, it, it was a big, very impactful part of our relationship, and we sought counseling afterwards to help us through the complexities of all of those emotions. And it was through that, that we, we kind of realized that actually our own relationship, we d- we, we talked about things that we hadn't talked about before, outside of the, the awfulness of that situation. We talked about our very different characters, and how, how we kind of tread around one another, and I think a lot of, a lot of relationships have that. They don't... Y- y- you might joke about your very different personalities, but there are certain areas that you know, "Oh, no, I can't ever say that. I couldn't do that." Well, why couldn't you... You should be really, really honest. The best relationships are ones where you can say anything to one another without fear of offense. Now, I've already said that I've rather thin skin, so I'm easily offended, and Marina has offended me many times over the years, and I, and I've offended her. And, and I think this marri- th- this m- marriage counseling prevention came, was born out of that. And about a year afterwards, Marina... W- we were struggling a little bit. It was such