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Boris Johnson: COVID was almost certainly a lab accident

Inside the lab-leak claim, a Cameron threat over Brexit, and Partygate. Boris Johnson defends lockdowns while doubting their cost on children.

Boris JohnsonguestSteven Bartletthost
Oct 10, 20241h 53mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:53

    Intro

    1. BJ

      Do you really think I was deliberately partying and breaking the rules?

    2. SB

      But it's all about leading by example, isn't it? I-

    3. BJ

      Well, what's ... But, sorry, but to say it was a party is a complete travesty.

    4. SB

      Seeing that photo when one of my friends couldn't go to their grandmother's funeral is the most enraging thing.

    5. BJ

      Yeah, I-

    6. SB

      I think all gatherings should have been banned at Number 10 because I think-

    7. BJ

      What do you mean gatherings?

    8. SB

      Gatherings with alcohol and music-

    9. BJ

      So there was-

    10. SB

      ... and cake. You should never have allowed that to happen.

    11. BJ

      I apologize for that.

    12. SB

      Boris Johnson.

    13. BJ

      The former Prime Minister of the UK whose reign included Brexit, COVID, and the Ukraine War.

    14. SB

      He's one of the world's most famous politicians. On this point of Brexit, how did David Cameron react when you said you're going to vote leave?

    15. BJ

      He said, "If you come out and, and support leave, I will (censored) you up forever. But if you support remain, you can have a top five job in the Cabinet."

    16. SB

      But is that not a bit corrupt? And is that how the jobs are dished out in the government at the moment?

    17. BJ

      Look, I'm sad to say that it's probably been the way politics has been since the dawn of time.

    18. SB

      And then this letter you wrote about the decision to leave or stay within the EU, which was unpublished. You seemed torn. So, do you regret Brexit?

    19. BJ

      Well...

    20. SB

      The next big thing was the pandemic.

    21. BJ

      There was a lot of stuff we, we didn't know and I think it almost certainly was a lab accident. They, they were looking at engineering viruses and ways that they could manipulate it. Sadly, something went wrong.

    22. SB

      When you talk about lockdowns, you refer to them as bonkers, which is strange hearing it from the guy that put the rules in place.

    23. BJ

      Well, did the benefits of lockdown outweigh the very, very severe damage done to kids? Um-

    24. SB

      What do you think the answer to that question is?

    25. BJ

      Honestly, I think-

    26. SB

      Boris, I just wanted to ask a few more things. Trump or Kamala?

    27. BJ

      Yeah.

    28. SB

      Who's the best for international relations? How many kids do you have? Charlotte Owen, you're not related to her, are you? And then you have quite a distinct persona. People describe you as being a buffoon. When I first saw you, I thought you were a parody from Bo' Selecta.

    29. BJ

      No. (laughs)

    30. SB

      Is it calculated?

  2. 2:53 – 5:20

    What Do We Need To Understand About Your Early Years

    1. SB

      Boris.

    2. BJ

      Steve.

    3. SB

      What do I need to understand about your earliest years to understand the man that you are today?

    4. BJ

      I think the key thing is my wonderful, happy, very kind of peregrinating childhood, um, in the company of my siblings. The key fact was that after, uh, 18 months of existence, my sister Rachel was born. And ever after, it was just a, a constant struggle to keep the, the pretense of primacy with my, with my siblings. But I think it's, it is probably true to say that healthy, incessant sibling interaction, competition, whatever you want to call it, rivalry, um, definitely played a part in my formation. And, and we used to make fun of it too. We used to think it was rather pathetic. We all knew that there was a culture of trying to win. So, we used to say, "Oh, little baby wants to win." And so we were kind of, we competed but we also deprecated the, the competition.

    5. SB

      At that age, um, say, before the age of 10, how does that manifest in terms of a feeling? Because you can in hindsight say, "Okay, I was competitive," but how did it feel? You know, 'cause you, you-

    6. BJ

      It felt like fun.

    7. SB

      But, but this idea that Rachel came along and then you were vying for attention and competition f- with her, how did, how does that feel when you're under the age of 10? 'Cause your, your father at least was very, very busy as a man. So, I'm presuming he wasn't necessarily so present. Um, I was reading that-

    8. BJ

      Mm.

    9. SB

      ... you moved house 32 times in 14 years.

    10. BJ

      Yeah, but that, okay, I mean, he was b- he, he, um ... But really, I think I, you know, I speak for all of my siblings now when I say that you really couldn't have had a more loving, caring ... You know, they, they, both of them, I mean, you know, they're both very busy, both my mother and father. Mother was a painter, um, my father, yeah, writer, did a huge number of things, but they did invest a lot of time in us. I mean,

  3. 5:20 – 6:15

    Glue Ear Making You Deaf

    1. BJ

      really a lot.

    2. SB

      It sounded like you had a, a rough sort of first 10 years of life because you also had glue ear, which is, uh, which made you deaf at an early age.

    3. BJ

      Yes, well, I don't know. I think we need to look at, very carefully at the ... I, I definitely had adenoids and I had, uh, tonsillitis, and I spent a lot of time in St. Barts and had my adenoids out, my tonsil, and everything like that. And I did have glue ear, but it, but my, my, my deafness, there's no trace of it now particularly. And I kind of wonder whether it was in fact a, a, a cunning means to avoid my mother's questions. And I th- I think, I, look, I mean, there's, I don't know. It may be that I wasn't as deaf as, as all that. Do you know what I mean? Would you ever do that if your mother was asking you something you didn't actually want to engage and-

    4. SB

      I don't think I'm that cunning.

    5. BJ

      (laughs) Do you know what I mean?

    6. SB

      Not at eight years old.Your

  4. 6:15 – 8:55

    Your Mother Charlotte

    1. SB

      mother, Charlotte, um, she had four children. You were the oldest of those four. Um, she seems to be a really important character in your life. In fact, when I opened up the first couple of pages of the book, you, you dedicate the book in memory of, of Charlotte, your mother.

    2. BJ

      I do.

    3. SB

      She was an artist. She had made painti- paintings of, of, of her children, but also other things. I saw some of those paintings, I did some research on those paintings. Um, but one of the s- sort of really pivotal moments in her early upbringing is that she suffered from obsessive-compulsive disorder.

    4. BJ

      She did, yeah.

    5. SB

      You're, what, 10 years old when your mother is an im- uh, put as an inpatient in a psy- psychiatric hospital? And you're apart for-

    6. BJ

      Yeah.

    7. SB

      ... eight months.

    8. BJ

      Something like that, yes.

    9. SB

      What, what impact does that have on you in terms of shaping, shaping the Boris that we know today, if any?

    10. BJ

      I mean, I remember it all very, very well. And it's hard to say exactly what impact it, it had on me, but I think what certainly happened was that all four of us, all fo- four the children that, um, that my mother ha- had, we definitely kind of coagulated as a, as a group, because it was a tough time. There were, well, there were aspects of it that were, were tough because, you know, she, she wasn't always there. And so I think it did breed a certain kind of group solidarity. And she always kind of blamed herself for not being there for the eight months or whatever period it was, and I, I remember feeling very strongly that that was unfair, and on-... and that she actually d- you know, did an amazing job, and, you know, you couldn't, you couldn't have asked for more.

    11. SB

      Did you notice her, uh, anything unusual about her behavior before she was taken?

    12. BJ

      Yes. No, it's just... So you, the OCD thing is absolutely right, she did have that. And, you know, it was, it was very difficult, and I'm sure people who are watching this know exactly what it is, but she had lots of different, uh, patterns of behavior. One of the, one of them was, was about cleanliness. So, so, so the, so the... she would, she would wash her hands, uh, and then, um, she would, she would realize in order to, to turn the tap off she'd have to tou- touch the, the, the faucet, the spigot, and, and, and she didn't want to do that because that would make her hands dirty again, she thought. But, you know, this is a very well known symptom. And she, and she totally got over it. I mean, she totally got over it, she got

  5. 8:55 – 11:46

    Why Was Your Mother Sent To A Psychiatric Ward

    1. BJ

      through it.

    2. SB

      Why was she sent to a psychiatric facility?

    3. BJ

      Um, well, I guess because she's... I think... That's a jolly good question, I don't know to really, really know the answer. I think, I think she probably said that she thought she could benefit from therapy, and that's what she and my father decided to, was the best way forward. But I, I, I honestly don't know the answer to that.

    4. SB

      And who looked after you while she was in that facility at 10 years old?

    5. BJ

      Well, my father w- was there, and we had, uh, a wonderful series of au pair girls and nannies and, and so on and so forth.

    6. SB

      And at 14 years old-

    7. BJ

      And they were, they were all great too, but, you know, I don't, I don't, you know, I don't want to give the impression, which would not be fair, that my mother kind of, um, was absent for long periods or wasn't a, a, a presence in our lives 'cause she really was.

    8. SB

      It was more her words, I saw her doing an interview where she was talking about, um, her belief that you had certain mechanisms to cope with the pain of her going to the facility for eight months but then also the divorce when you were 14. I thought those ages, that sort of pr- puberty, um, age where you're figuring yourself out, to get such a jolt of bad news is-

    9. BJ

      Yeah. I think that's, yeah, I mean, classically, yes, and look, I'm not gonna... I think you're onto it. You're, you know, there's, there's, you'll, there was an element of, of self-defense that then the, you know, many kids in, in my po- our position then develop. Um, but I do insist that they both remained rema- remarkable parents. We never... It wasn't like we were suddenly cut adrift by, by either of them, on the contrary.

    10. SB

      Self-defense.

    11. BJ

      Well, no, I don't know. I mean, I'm quoting her on, on me, by the way, so I'm quoting, I'm quoting you quo- quoting her.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. BJ

      Um-

    14. SB

      But you were there, so you understand-

    15. BJ

      Well, yeah, but I mean, you know, but I-

    16. SB

      ... it was

    17. NA

      smarter than-

    18. BJ

      ... like, we didn't co- it didn't occur to me at the time that though, though-

    19. SB

      Yeah, I don't think it can for a 14-year-old, but in hindsight as an a- as a man you go, "Okay, that was what created a path you're making."

    20. BJ

      I don't know, I don't know, but I mean, but maybe, um, I got nothing else to compare it to, right?

    21. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    22. BJ

      Um, in your growing up anyway, you're becoming more self-reliant, you gotta do things for yourself. Um-

    23. SB

      What do you s-

    24. BJ

      So I think, so you go back to where it was with my, my brothers and sisters, I think certainly, you know, it was another thing that drove us all together.

  6. 11:46 – 13:41

    Why Did Your Mother Say You Were "Self Defending"

    1. BJ

    2. SB

      Why self-defense, and how did that self-defense manifest in terms of behavior?

    3. BJ

      I just, I can't... I'd be the worst type of, um... uh, well, let me think. Well, how did I, how did I, uh, how, how did my self-defense manifest? I suppose I became... Yes, unquestionably it was painful, so how did I protect myself against that? Well, one obvious thing to do-... which I suppose we, we all do. Um, I think I find the best therapy for every type of pain, emotional pain, is to try to lose yourself in your work. Emotional pain is, is about, a lot about it, it's about self-esteem. So, so like with, when, when, when parents split up, um, you know, you, the, the shock is, "Well you, you can't love us that much but if you're doing this," right? That's the, that's the, what it's all about, which is not true, of course, but that's what the children, that's what children feel. They feel it's their failure, there's something wrong with them. And that's not true, but that's how kids feel. I suppose to protect myself against that, like, I had a natural avenue for, to build up my self-esteem, and that was academic work, um, that kind of thing. But again, and you know, another, I suppose another type of, of competition. And it, and, and it is a good therapy. Work is a, work is a, is a great reliever.

    4. SB

      Or distraction?

    5. BJ

      Well, (sighs) depends on your sort of theory of psychology. But, um, I think it, both.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. BJ

      Both.

  7. 13:41 – 15:10

    Why Did Your Parents Divorce?

    1. BJ

    2. SB

      Why did they divorce? Do you know?

    3. BJ

      I think formally speaking, what had happened was that, um, you know, my mother has simply decided she wanted to make another life and, and she, you know, she, she found someone wonderful and, and, and, and all, all rest of it. Um, but I think that my father, um, and, and mother, the weird thing about their divorce was that they both continued to be very strongly affectionate towards each other. And you know, I'm, I'm, again, I'm not trying to minimize the psychological importance of any of this stuff for us as, as kids, but that was immensely fortifying because it was so obvious that it wasn't like they were at war. I mean, you know, they, they had big bust-ups, but it was, we felt that there was a real residue of, of love and affection between them, even if, even if it was... I mean, I think the way, the way we explained it to ourselves was that there was still a residue of love and affection, but that it was just practically impossible for them to, to continue. And, and so that was, that was how we rationalized it, and, um, they both found other people and, and, and were

  8. 15:10 – 15:57

    Was There Physical Violence In The Household?

    1. BJ

      very happy.

    2. SB

      You s- you say bust-ups. That, from everything that I've read, there was physical violence in the household when you were younger.

    3. BJ

      Yeah, well this is, this is something that, um, has been alleged by, uh, sadly, by one of my biographers. Um, so it's something very sort of pompous thing to say, one of my biographers. Um, well some guy wrote a book, um, and put that stuff in. You know, all I can tell you is I have no direct knowledge of, of what he said. Um, I don't want to get into it because I don't want to be disrespectful to my mother's memory, and I, I certainly don't want to say anything that would cause pain or embarrassment to my father. So, but I can, what I can say is I had, as a child, no direct knowledge

  9. 15:57 – 18:32

    What Did Your Parents Teach You About Marriage And Love

    1. BJ

      of it myself.

    2. SB

      What did, um, their relationship teach you that marriage and love was?

    3. BJ

      They, they cl- they... So they met at university. Um, they clearly loved each other. And I think if you ask my siblings, they'll, they'll, they'll tell you that. So that, you know, it was upsetting when, when they split up because-

    4. SB

      Do you remember the day they told you they were breaking up?

    5. BJ

      Yeah, yeah, yeah, I do, I do, I do, I do. It was, it was, uh, we were, we were in, we were in Somerset, and my father said that we all had to go and, and up by the, the, the gate towards the engine shed. So we went and stood by the gate towards the engine shed, and, and we were told this, you know, sad news.

    6. SB

      What did he say?

    7. BJ

      I don't remember exactly. I don't remember exactly. But I was, look, I was cross and, and, and said, you know, "So, so why did you have us then?" Because I thought, well, you know. Um... As, as y- you know, I think it is upsetting, and kids do take, you know, kids take it upon themselves, right? And so they do, they do think that there must be some fault or mistake in their, in themselves. And that isn't, that isn't true. I mean, it's, you know, you... It's very important for kids not to blame themselves for, for these things. And I think that, that's, you know, back to the point I was making earlier on with you, um, I think, you know, you do need to feed the, the, your self-esteem, and you need to get yourself back up again. And so work was my, was my way of doing it.

    8. SB

      I c- I could see the, um, the emotion in your face when you talk about that moment as if you were teleported back to that moment for a second.

    9. BJ

      Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean, it may... look, I mean, uh, the, the actual, the truth is that I'm now told in retrospect that that is what I said. I don't personally remember it. Um-

    10. SB

      Mm. But do you remember how it feels?

    11. BJ

      Yeah, but look. I mean... Yes, but it- I really wouldn't want to over egg it, because my parents were incredibly kind to each other

  10. 18:32 – 25:04

    Is Your Public Persona A Marketing Strategy?

    1. BJ

      after that.

    2. SB

      You know when you do this and you throw the- the coal in the, uh-

    3. BJ

      I'm just stoking the furnace of my- of my-

    4. SB

      Your self-esteem?

    5. BJ

      ... my self-esteem, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    6. SB

      You, um, you have quite a distinct per- persona. Uh, you're... I mean, much of where you sort of first came to public knowledge was on the TV show Have I Got News For You.

    7. BJ

      Yeah, no. I think the BBC are very, uh, uh, they- they- they live in a permanent state of horror about why they did that. Because, you know, I think... That's one of the reasons that they- they... I think they- they have a terrible sense of corporate guilt that they unleashed this thing. (laughs)

    8. SB

      Is- is there a link between your persona, comedic kinda... You know, people often describe you as being a bit of a buffoon. I actually thought you were a... This is just being honest 'cause I feel like it's important to be honest w- to someone if you've said it behind their back. But I- when I first saw you on the screen, I was a very young man. I must've been, I don't know, 14? And I thought you were a parody from Bo' Selecta. Like, I thought- (laughs)

    9. BJ

      I knew, yeah.

    10. SB

      I thought you were a j- I thought it was a parody. But then I came to learn, you know, when you did-

    11. BJ

      Yeah, yeah.

    12. SB

      ... the London mayor thing, et cetera, that you were a politician, and who you were and where you'd come from. But the Out- the Out- Extellae episode is very atypical of a politician.

    13. BJ

      Right.

    14. SB

      And your general comedic sense, that shows up in the book a lot. Um, y- you were very comedic on H- Have I Got News, How I, Have I Got News For You. Um, i- is that at all linked? When- when did that behavior show up? Because there was two points of reference that I was mulling. One is things your sister said about where you sort of learned that comedy was a useful device. Um, and the second one is something Jimmy Carr actually said to me. He said to me that, um... He goes, "If you ever meet anyone comedic or a comedian, don't ask them if they're depressed. Ask them which one of their parents they were trying to cheer up or win favor from." And I- I wondered if all-

    15. BJ

      Yeah, and I think... I don't know. I th- I think that, um, one of the things I've tried to do in politics is to get people interested, and one of the things I've tried to do in Unleashed, which is unquestionably a- a mixture. Uh, there's a- a lot of serious argument in it, but also I'm trying to tell the story in as readable a way as possible. And you have to, you have to use... Uh, you gotta sugar the pill. You've gotta... So it's like a- it's like a- it's like a packet of, uh, of- of digestive biscuits.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BJ

      Um, i- if... Y- you've gotta have... So each of the chapters, uh, has a, uh, some solid, you know, wheat germ pabulum, but it's covered with, um, some, a little layer of chocolate-

    18. SB

      Did you sugar it?

    19. BJ

      ... on top, so you s- so you comp- You go down, you go down the packet compulsively and each of those 60 chapters, I think there are 60 chapters in that book, is designed to give you a bit of both.

    20. SB

      So are you the pill that was sugared? You sugared yourself?

    21. BJ

      No. Well, I, it's... Well, no, the- there are... It's the fact of the great things that I think that we did. You know, we took back control of our, of our country. We- we had a... We- we went for a type of independence that people thought was impossible. We-

    22. SB

      No, I'm specifically on the persona.

    23. BJ

      And the per-

    24. SB

      The persona count.

    25. BJ

      And the per- And the complicated arguments about, um, the Middle East, about... Y- you know, as- as a-

    26. SB

      Mm.

    27. BJ

      ... as a- as a guide to the last 15 years in- in politics, I think it's- it's pretty useful.

    28. SB

      But, I mean, you- I worked in marketing for about 15 years, so I find it quite fascinating that right now in the world, it seems that there's a certain type of atypical personality that's breaking through and being resonant. Is your persona a carefully constructed marketing strategy, or is... Because someone I've, someone that knows you referred to you as a bit of a loner in private and quite a quiet person.

    29. BJ

      Yeah. No, no. I- I live... I... So I'm very... I have a wonderful life. Um, I- I spend my time... I- I do a lot of painting. Um, I- I do a lot of reading and, uh, and writing. Um, I muck around with my, I muck around with my kids. It doesn't take much to... You know, for my cup to run over with- with- with happiness.

    30. SB

      But, you know, all this stuff like the... (imitates grumbling)

  11. 25:04 – 28:53

    The Imbalance Of The UK's Class System

    1. BJ

      anyway.

    2. SB

      Eton. It's pretty crazy to me. So you went to Eton at 13 years old. It's- the crazy thing for me is that approximately 20 of the 57 individuals who have served as prime minister went to Eton, which is roughly 35% of the UK prime ministers were educated at Eton, roughly.

    3. BJ

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      This, for me, when I read that, I go, "Something's broken here." Because for one school to contribute so many of the most powerful people in- in the land feels like a little bit of- like someone's got their hands on a scale, or there's some kind of-

    5. BJ

      That's why you need to read Leveling... You read- you need to read the book. Because the book contains... This is the whole fit- theme of the book, right?

    6. SB

      Not the whole theme of the book.

    7. BJ

      It's one of the major themes of the book, is about leveling up.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. BJ

      And if- if you remember what I say about... I- I don't really... You- you got through that bit. But I- so I went there on a scholarship, and it was fantastic. I was very lucky. I was- I was paid for by the- by Henry VI, uh, or the legacy of Henry VI. And I remember feeling this incredible sense of, uh, amazement that there were kids from some of the most famous illustrious families in- in Britain, uh, who plainly didn't have, you know, much, um, intellectual interest, academic, you know, spark in them. And- and kids who'd come from backgrounds all over the country, who were incredible. And I- and I... My- my insight at school, very- very- very young, was that there's- there's a fundamental problem, which is that there is ambition and energy and genius and talent probably completely evenly distributed throughout the UK population, and opportunity is not.

    10. SB

      Yeah. I agree.

    11. BJ

      And- and that is the problem. That is the basic problem with our country. And this country has more potential, arguably, than any other major European economy because it's so imbalanced. And if you look at the- the proport- schools like mine, .............................. London and in the Southeast in the UK economy, it's actually unlike France, Germany, Italy, Holland. It's also totally unlike the United States. And so I- I decided very early on that there- that there was massive, massive wasted potential. And so one of the things... And I- and I... And so when I became mayor of London, one of my biggest projects was really all... The biggest thing we did was really all about trying to lift the- the- the burrows that people said were- were locked in a permanent cycle of disadvantage. And- and, you know- you know what I mean, the inner do- the inner donut of London, Hackney, where... you know, all that. And- and- and it was total rubbish. Total rubbish. And you can- you can change people's aspirations, but you can then also change, uh, the culture of- of achievement. And- and I saw it happen in London. And I was only mayor for eight years, but in that period, you really did see the city change, uh, in- in quite a sign- significant way. And I believe, very, very strongly, that that is fundamentally what needs to happen in the whole of the UK.

    12. SB

      Do you think-

    13. BJ

      And- and I think that this is the job of politicians. I don't care whether they're Labour or Conservative or whoever. I think that that is- that is what we need to- to be doing. And I think there are very simple ingredients that poli... There's- there's not... There's limits to what politicians can do. But there are some simple things that politicians need to be doing to- to make

  12. 28:53 – 38:58

    Has The Conservative Government Done Enough To Level The UK?

    1. BJ

      that happen.

    2. SB

      Has the Conservative government done well enough at leveling up the- the whole of the UK over the last decade?

    3. BJ

      Uh, the... obviously not, because it's not happening fast. It is happ-

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. BJ

      I mean, it is happening. Leveling up is happening.

    6. SB

      But if you look at the disparity-

    7. BJ

      But it's nothing like fast enough.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. BJ

      And, you know... So, you know, I was proud of doing things like, um, rolling out gigabit broadband from, you know, 7 to 70%, al- 69, 70% of- of households in- in three years, which is not- not bad going. I was proud of all the infrastructure stuff we were- we were doing. I think it's a mistake to- to stop that. Infrastructure is crucial for leveling up. Transport infrastructure is a great- is a great equalizer of opportunity. So things like HS2, Northern Powerhouse Rail, we should be going on with those, in- in my view. And, um, you know, whatever my- my defects as a politician, I think one thing I was good at was getting a lot of stuff done fast, and get... and- and driving... and driving project- projects. But-

    10. SB

      The problem is...

    11. BJ

      E- Eton- Eton was... To... You know, back to your question, that youthful experience was... 'Cause I wa- I was also at primary school in- in London, and I really, really decided that this was... The- the... 'Cause I think our country has this problem-... worse than most other country- mo- most comparable countries. But if you think how, if you think of how strong the UK economy already is, then imagine what we could achieve if we leveled up, right?

    12. SB

      Do you know this, this stat around Eton, that 20 out of the 57 individuals who've served as prime minister came from there? Isn't that just the clearest example of the fact that-

    13. BJ

      It is, yeah.

    14. SB

      ... the people that are coming into politics but also generally the people that are getting to the top in society are starting with a unfair advantage to some degree?

    15. BJ

      I... Well, I think what it shows is that... I mean, you could probably point to cultures like France or wherever, where, you know, the, a lot of the, uh, the country is run by the, um, the, the people from the, the, the great schools. Um, but yeah. I mean, fundamentally, yes. Uh, that's why I think that the... So, so the great, the great choice for pu- for anybody who's interested in public policy is, well, okay, this is a, this is clearly, clearly a problem. Uh, it's clearly wrong. Uh, it's clearly imbalanced. What do you do? Uh, do you set out to launch a kind of cultural assault, um, Pol Pot style, on the successful institutions? Or do you say, "Actually what we're gonna do is try to spread opportunity?" So it's more like America. And, and the, and if you look at America, you know, the growth rates have spectacularly outperformed European growth rates. There's a different sense... People have a different sense of what they can do. And we need to have a, we need to have a, a culture in the UK where people don't feel prisoners of their geography, of their background, and-

    16. SB

      But that certainly is the case, isn't it, at the moment in the UK?

    17. BJ

      I think it's too much the case. I mean, it's less th- it's less than it was, but it's too much the case.

    18. SB

      I, I went undercover in a s- I went undercover in a school in Liverpool that's, uh, was very poorly ranked on the Ofsted, uh, rankings.

    19. BJ

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      And I remember being in that school and just thinking, "How on earth are these kids gonna have a chance at," um-

    21. BJ

      Well, they're not gonna have a chance if their teachers tell them that they're never gonna get into a Russell Group university, and they d- and they don't-

    22. SB

      Well, the... What I observed when I was there was I observed one teacher running from one classroom to the next classroom, this was under a Tory government, trying to teach two classes at the same time.

    23. BJ

      Yeah.

    24. SB

      And I remember sitting down with her 'cause I, 'cause I got, like, kicked out of school, then I was un-expelled from school, so I had a bit of my own mind prejudices about school. I thought teachers were the problem.

    25. BJ

      Yeah.

    26. SB

      And what I came to learn from speaking to the headmaster of this school was that this is effectively run like a business, and the amount of students that choose that school every year determines how much money the school is given by the, the Conservative Government. And the, the amount of... The parents choose schools based on the league table, and the league table is determined by grades. So really if you think about the, the structure here, um, the reason why they're driving kids like me to do subjects which I absolutely hated, when I was really interested in business, was because if they don't get me to get 12 As to Cs or whatever the nonsense is in certain subjects-

    27. BJ

      But-

    28. SB

      ... less... They, they rank poorly in the league table-

    29. BJ

      That's right.

    30. SB

      ... l- less parents choose this school. They get less money from the government, and it's this downward spiral. And because this school was run-

  13. 38:58 – 39:28

    Boris' Career Rundown

    1. BJ

      deliver.

    2. SB

      You went to Oxford University, then you had a job as a management consultant, which lasted only a week, I hear.

    3. BJ

      Yeah, I wasn't, wasn't really cut out for management consultancy, no.

    4. SB

      You then become a journalist.

    5. BJ

      Yes, yes.

    6. SB

      Um, you become a journalist for the next couple years.

    7. BJ

      Yes.

    8. SB

      You then appear on Have I Got News For You.

    9. BJ

      Is it, has it now, is it now faded from the memory?

    10. SB

      It's slightly f- it's slightly fading.

    11. BJ

      Has it now?

    12. SB

      It's still a great show, but it's still slightly fading. Um, you were then editor of The Spectator-

    13. BJ

      See, you mustn't tell Ian Hislop that his fa- or, and, and, uh-

    14. SB

      You were an MP at the House of Comms.

    15. BJ

      ... couldn't work it out. Yeah.

    16. SB

      Um, then eventually, y- you run for London

  14. 39:28 – 41:53

    Did You Expect To Win The London Mayorship?

    1. SB

      mayor. Were you ... Did you expect to win the London mayorship?

    2. BJ

      I, well, you, you see, this is the, the way you ... I just hadn't got the faintest idea. I mean, it seemed ... Uh, the thing was, that I'd actually been quite an admirer of Ken Livingstone in-

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. BJ

      ... in the old days. And I thought that he had some, some, uh, bold and original ideas for London.

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. BJ

      I mean, I thought he was good on the environment, he was good on air quality, he was good on, on the ... I thought there was some, there was some, some good things that he, that he did. Um, but it was clear that after eight years, you know, you start to get a bit ragged.

    7. SB

      Did you, did you think-

    8. BJ

      And, and-

    9. SB

      ... you would win?

    10. BJ

      I suppose I must've done. I suppose I must've thought there was a good chance. It was ex- it was, it was a pretty exhausting campaign.

    11. SB

      Yeah, but d-

    12. BJ

      And tough.

    13. SB

      ... uh, if you ask me if I thought I would win something, I can tell you in hindsight whether I thought I'd win. I did soccer aid last year, this year, and I can tell you if I thought I was gonna win. Did, did you think you were going to win when you ran?

    14. BJ

      I thought there was a goodish chance, but it wasn't obvious.

    15. SB

      Okay.

    16. BJ

      I mean, I, I think the bookies didn't really have me as the, as the favorite, uh, for, for a long time. I think it then changed, I can't remember exactly, but, um, you know, you c- you, you make your own luck, right? I mean, I, I had to, I had to go in there and make the arguments. I mean, I think that one of the things that Ken didn't pay enough attention to was crime. And I thought the ... was a real issue that needed to be addressed, and that was the, the numbers of teenage kids being murdered. And we really, really went at that hard. And again, it was one of those things where, when I, together with a lot of other people, Kit Malthouse, deputy mayor, and Stephen Greenhalgh, uh, Paul Stephenson, the, the commissioner, Bernard Hogan-Howe, uh, the, who, who followed him, we really, really tried t- to fix knife crime and gang crime. I used to s- l- literally lie awake at night worrying about it because it was so on me. You know, every, every single casualty, having to talk to the parents, and, the, you know, the misery, the misery of, of their suffering. We really felt it, and we, you know, and it was, it was a good example of democracy because we'd pledged to fix it, and if we didn't, then we had nowhere to go. One of the things I'm proud of is we, we cut the murder rate in London during my time by

  15. 41:53 – 43:34

    You Had 3 Significant Country Events, Do You Wish It Was Different?

    1. BJ

      50%.

    2. SB

      In 2016, at 52 years old, you become co-leader, alongside Michael Gove, of the campaign to take Britain out of the EU. When I, when I look at your premiership as, uh, Prime Minister of the UK, there's three really significant moments, isn't there, that typically don't fall all in one person's role as, uh, prime minister. You had the Brexit issues, you had COVID-

    3. BJ

      Yep.

    4. SB

      ... and you had the Ukraine war.

    5. BJ

      Yep.

    6. SB

      Um, before I, before I talk about those particular issues, in hindsight now, how do you feel about the fact that you had to contend with three generational crises and issues?

    7. BJ

      But, you know, that's the job of being prime minister.

    8. SB

      But most prime ministers don't get-

    9. BJ

      Sure, but, but, you know-

    10. SB

      ... a pandemic, but leaving the EU, and a war.

    11. BJ

      But s- some prime ministers have had-... wars. Some pe- prime ministers have had, uh, terrible crises. Uh, sterling crisis, terrible economic crises.

    12. SB

      Do you wish you'd got a different hand?

    13. BJ

      No. I, I, I think actually-

    14. SB

      Do you think you'd still be in politics now and as prime minister if, if you'd got a different hand?

    15. BJ

      No. I think there are, I think there f- honestly, I think there were other reasons for, for that. I mean, I'm... So, I'm, I'm proud of, of the things that we did with, with the country. I think it was very... You know, people now say, um, "Oh, Brexit, woo." Actually, you know, one of the points I make in un- in Unleashed is that if you look at it, the model of national independence that we got was crucial. So f- full freedom to do what we wanted in legislation and regulation. That was a- actually crucial when it came to that pandemic, because we were able to vaccinate faster than any other European country. Much faster. I mean,

  16. 43:34 – 45:46

    Did You Think You Were Going To Win The Brexit Vote?

    1. BJ

      t-

    2. SB

      Did you think you were gonna win the Brexit vote?

    3. BJ

      Um, I-

    4. SB

      Honestly.

    5. BJ

      When I was outside London, yes.

    6. SB

      Were you-

    7. BJ

      When I was inside London, no. So whenever I traveled around the country, I thought, "My God, people are gonna vote." And then when, when I got back into the metropolis, um, it felt very different.

    8. SB

      So if you had to put your house on it, remain or leave in terms of the pr- probability of, of the outcome, what you th- your predicted outcome, which one would you have voted on?

    9. BJ

      Well, I th- polls were, were basically more for remain than for leave. Um, but I sort of thought that our voters were more motivated, so I hoped that they would come out. I hoped that they would... that that would show. And it, and, but it did, but on a scale that no one had foreseen. I mean, because we had 17.4 million people voted leave, which was the biggest number voted for any proposition in history. And, um... But, you know, there were t- plenty of times when I, you know... You could be in a tu- in an, I don't know, St Andrews University in Scotland at my daughter's graduation day, and you really wouldn't have thought that we were gonna vote leave talking to those people there.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. BJ

      So, you know, it, it depended.

    12. SB

      Do you know what's interesting? When I was reading your book, but also when I was reading some of your previous writings, you seemed really conflicted on which way to go, leave or remain. Right up until you wrote your sort of first announcement piece that you were supporting leave, you seemed to be really, really conflicted.

    13. BJ

      The, the reasons for, for, for not leaving were, it seemed to me, to be more to do with Britain's duty to the rest of Europe, our need to be good partners, uh, our need not to be negative, uh, to be friendly. I, that, that was, those were things that worried me.

    14. SB

      People point-

    15. BJ

      The posi- the positive reasons for leaving-

    16. SB

      People point at this letter, which was unpublished. You know the letter I'm, I'm referring to. The unpublished letter you wrote about the decision to leave or stay within the EU.

    17. BJ

      Is this the...?

  17. 45:46 – 49:50

    Your Secret Pro-Remain Letter

    1. BJ

      No. You mean the ar- the article that I-

    2. SB

      The unpublished article.

    3. BJ

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    4. SB

      Where you said... S- here's some of the, the phrases from that piece. "Think of Britain, think of the rest of the EU, think of, of the future, think of the desire of our children and our grandchildren to live and work in other European countries, to sell things there, to make friends, perhaps to find partners there. I like the sound of freedom. I like the sound of restoring democracy. But what are the downsides? And here we must be honest. There is the worry about Scotland, about the possibility that the English only leave vote could lead to the breakup of the union. There is the Putin factor. We don't want to do anything to encourage more shirtless swaggering from the Russian leader, not the Middle East, not anywhere. And then there is the whole geostrategic anxiety. Britain is a great nation, a global force for good. It is surely a boon for the world and for Europe that she should be intimately engaged in the EU. Lastly, this is a market on our doorstep ready for future exploitation by British firms. The membership fee seems rather small for all that access. Why are we so determined to turn our back on it? Shouldn't our policy be like our policy on cake? Pro having it and pro eating it, pro Europe and pro rest of the world?" So when I read that book... Then I also, I read the, um, the very vivid description you gave of that night when you were trying to make your decision in your book, uh, Unleashed. And you seemed torn. But the guy that went out and campaigned didn't seem torn. There was a, there was a real lack of nuance in the campaign. But there's such a, uh, a huge amount of nuance in both the moment you were making the decision and the articles you wrote about that decision.

    5. BJ

      There are arguments both ways. And, and I, I, I say it in the, in the book. And it's certainly true that as I, as I said just now, the, the case for, for staying in is, is I think, uh, uh, one about, um, not seeming to be hostile, not seeming to be detached. But I had to decide because the, the... Being in the EU isn't like just being in a club th- where the rules don't change. It's, it's a project to create a United States of, of Europe with a single currency, with a single parliament, and, and, and so on. And I thought that we weren't ever gonna get the choice again, the chance again to have natural democratic independence. And as I said in... So I wrote... The, so that article you just quoted was a sort of pastiche of a, of a counterargument which I wrote for myself as an exercise after I'd already written the piece to, to come out. And I wanted to set them side by side and to, and to think-

    6. SB

      But that's nuanced.

    7. BJ

      ... which, which-

    8. SB

      But the campaign wasn't nuanced.

    9. BJ

      But if you read the, the other article-

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. BJ

      ... y- y- you'll see the points that I came down in favor of.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. BJ

      And that was about having full natural independence and being able to do things your own way. And the trouble with staying in the EU-... was that it meant that we were going to become less and less democratic. And in the end, you've got to be able to, as a politician, you've got to be able to answer the question, "Who put you in authority over me? And how can I remove you from office?" And the problem with the EU is there's no way they can answer that question.

    14. SB

      But is there-

    15. BJ

      Because they're not, they're not democratically elected.

    16. SB

      Is there no way you can reform the relationship with the EU while being in the EU? You know, it's interesting-

    17. BJ

      No.

    18. SB

      ... because I think I was thinking of a football analogy as you were talking there. And right now, Manchester United, my team are having a bit of a struggle, right? And, um, my friends in the group chat are saying, "Do you think that we should get rid of the manager?" And I'm saying, "When you think about making a decision like that, you also have to factor in, um, what you do after, i.e. who replaces the manager." So many fans would just say, "Sack the manager," but then the question becomes, "But then what?" And it was quite clear in your book that although you wanted to leave the EU, you had no idea what the plan would be (laughs) thereafter.

  18. 49:50 – 1:00:09

    You Had No Plan After Brexit

    1. SB

      And in fact, d-

    2. BJ

      Well, no. Th- but no. But, uh, if... What we needed to do was take back control, and so-

    3. SB

      That's like, "Fire the manager." I'm saying, "But then what?"

    4. BJ

      No. It wasn't... I was just wanting to win an argument with the public about their democracy and whether they should control it or not. And I thought that ultimately, we had to do that.

    5. SB

      But-

    6. BJ

      And I, and I, and I think that if you look at... So going back to the points that we were talking about earlier today with growth rates in America and, and Europe, you couldn't say that the E- the EU model has been economically successful. Not at all. Um, it's got chronically bad growth rates, um, very low innovation by comparison with the United States. Something is, is not working. So whatever they're, whatever they're doing in Brussels to provide this, this great body of, of regulation, it's not actually delivering results for the people of, of Europe.

    7. SB

      When com-

    8. BJ

      And, and if you-

    9. SB

      Sorry.

    10. BJ

      And so to go back, go back to the-

    11. SB

      Just to I want to be clear. When compared to America?

    12. BJ

      Well, so c- so from 2008 on to... Just 15... Take the 15 years, 2008, 2022 or whatever, to 2023. 2023. Um-

    13. SB

      But does that mean that the EU's doing something wrong or that the Amer- Americans are doing something right? 'Cause when I think of America-

    14. BJ

      Okay.

    15. SB

      ... I think of insane innovation. You know-

    16. BJ

      A bit of both.

    17. SB

      ... I think of e-

    18. BJ

      A bit of both.

    19. SB

      You know, I think of-

    20. BJ

      A bit of... A lot... A bit of both. A lot... I mean, a lot of both. So, I mean, the Americans, by the way, would never dream of trading away national sovereignty over anything. They just don't. They never, they never, they never in any way-

    21. SB

      NATO is a bit of a-

    22. BJ

      Yeah.

    23. SB

      ... pact where they've formed allies.

    24. BJ

      See, the Americans have complete hegemony in NATO. I mean, you know, th- that's the only-

    25. SB

      But they joined forces to make the sum greater than the parts.

    26. BJ

      Yeah, but, you know, the- there's no... The, the, the EU provides a, a body of new and a continuously evolving body of new law which British, the British Parliament can't change. And so to get back to... So why... I mean, I'm not pretending it wasn't an e- it wasn't a difficult decision. It was a difficult decision, uh, for the, you know, for the reasons that you... that, that we've gone into. But I wanted the country, our country, to be legislatively free again. And, and at the heart of the book... You know, you talk about the pandemic being the most difficult thing. And it was very, very difficult. But... And it was very difficult to persuade the British public to... And very difficult to find ways of stopping the spread of the disease. But one thing we did better than any other European country was vaccinate, and one reason we were able to vaccinate so fast is because we had regulatory freedom of exactly the kind-

    27. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    28. BJ

      I mean, it's complete fluke, but etern-

    29. SB

      We'll talk about that.

    30. BJ

      ... of exactly the kind-

  19. 1:00:09 – 1:02:01

    Did David Cameron React Badly When You Said You Were Going To Leave?

    1. BJ

      and I apo- apologize for using this name, he said, "I will, I will fuck you up forever." And which I thought was quite a big, big, you know, sort of promise to make.

    2. SB

      He said he was gonna fuck you up forever?

    3. BJ

      Forever. And so I immediately, um, went back home after... well, I went back home after that evening and, uh, and cycled back from the... my office in, in, in city hall and talked to my f-... my family, my kids. And one of my kids, uh, said immediately, "Well, you know, you're gonna... you've got no choice, then. You'll have to come out for leave." So, um, I mean, I put that in to sh-... to... I put all that in, really, to... just to show you that, um, there were very good arguments for having a quiet life.

    4. SB

      You know what's interesting in that is, uh, when I read that part in your book, there was two things that I thought. The first was, him offering you a top five job if you followed his opinion-

    5. BJ

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      ... is that not bribery? And is that how the jobs are dished out in the government at the moment? "If, if you, if you do what I say, I'll give you a top five." If like, "If you do what I say-"

    7. BJ

      Well, I don't know. I mean, you kn-

    8. SB

      "... I'll make you Health Secretary or Defense Secretary," seems like a-

    9. BJ

      No, no, it is kind of news.

    10. SB

      But it seems like from, as someone who's not in government, it seems like a really corrupt way to dish out jobs. Like if you, if you go in with...

    11. BJ

      It wasn't clear. It wasn't clear. You've got to be fair to Dave. It wasn't clear what job he was offering.

    12. SB

      But top five is what Defense Secretary, Health Secretary,

    13. BJ

      Well, I mean, I don't know. They, they, they're, you know...

    14. SB

      PMs were top five jobs, so there's what, three, four remaining. It's probably, you thought in the book, you talk about poten- potentially Defense Secretary?

    15. BJ

      I don't know. But yes. But yeah. I mean, look, um, but-

    16. SB

      But, but is that not a bit corrupt? Is that not like the definition of corruption? 'Cause if I said to my employers...

    17. BJ

      In my view, what I think is it's a huge mistake to do that kind of thing, because there are always far more people that, you know, you end up, you know, thinking that you should be making a promise to than there are jobs you can possibly give. So the best thing in those circumstances

  20. 1:02:01 – 1:04:07

    How Does Someone Get A High-Level Job Without Having Done It Before?

    1. BJ

      is to say nothing.

    2. SB

      I- I've, I've always wondered this about government, and I've never understood it, is how does someone become the head of a department when they have no prior experience in it? Like you made Matt Hancock Health Secretary. And I-

    3. BJ

      How, how, how did Margaret Thatcher become Prime Minister or, or, or Secretary of State for Education when she had no previ- previous experience?

    4. SB

      You tell me.

    5. BJ

      How did Tony Blair become Prime Minister when he had no experience?

    6. SB

      No, the Prime Minister thing I understand. Obviously, you would have done...

    7. BJ

      So tell me, how did Tony, how did Tony Blair become, you know, a Shadow Minister when he had no experience as a member of Parliament?

    8. SB

      You tell me. Do you think this is a good system?

    9. BJ

      Well-

    10. SB

      Because do-

    11. BJ

      This is a really, really important point, because I think that there is a, um... I don't know. I just... I do worry that it's quite hard to persuade, you know, really good administrative types to go into politics. And you know, you see it the whole time. I mean, this is called Diary of a CEO, right? And you see it the whole time. You see loads and loads of, um... I can give you plenty of examples of top business people who tried to get, who tried to become politicians, and it just doesn't seem to work.

    12. SB

      Why?

    13. BJ

      I don't know. I mean...

    14. SB

      Could I, could I have a guess?

    15. BJ

      Go on.

    16. SB

      Well, if I look at the data, I go if 35% of them come from one school, Eton, and then there's jobs being dished out based on, "If you take my opinion, I'll give you a top five job," I go, I understand why I could never get in, even if I was the best candidate, because it's not being done based on who's the best candidate. It's being done based on like the old boys club. Like, "I'll do you a favor. I'll lift you."

    17. BJ

      Well, not under, not under, not under the Labor Party, presumably, uh, or you know, or, or any other party. And not, not, not under the t- I mean, most, most conservative cabinets-

    18. SB

      So just under the Tory party?

    19. BJ

      No. Uh, I think under any, under any party, I think, I think that business people do, for reasons I find hard to put my finger on, they don't necessarily flourish in, in that environment. And-

    20. SB

      Who flourishes?

    21. BJ

      What I, what I worry about is that the only people who are really gonna start doing

  21. 1:04:07 – 1:05:38

    If You're In Politics, You Need To Be Okay With Public Attacks

    1. BJ

      it are people who are willing to go through a lot of, um, you know, public att-... I think it's safe to say.

    2. SB

      Sociopaths? (laughs)

    3. BJ

      Well, I mean, well, the fact... So look, one of the interesting things that has happened recently is that social media has become very, very virulent. And, um, I mean, I don't read it myself, but I think it, it becomes very oppressive for politicians and also for journalists. And I think journalists, um ... you know, they get a lot of shellacking and a lot of abuse if they're not thought to be taking one line or, or the other or, you know, going easy on someone. Um, I mean, as somebody who was going to interview me for this, this book, um-

    4. SB

      Laura at the BBC.

    5. BJ

      Yeah. And she, and, and you look at... And she's a very, very good journalist. But you look at the stuff that she gets online, um, about, you know, you know, her being an inquisitor of mine or whatever, and it's appalling. It's really appalling. And I think, so I think that, and I think that it's also the same for MPs. I think that they get very, um... They think, they think as if it's a choice between having a life where I can, you know, avoid this sort of stuff and, you know, having a wonderful existence doing something else, or, or putting myself

  22. 1:05:38 – 1:07:07

    Is Politics All About Bringing Your Friends Up With You?

    1. BJ

      through this.

    2. SB

      But on the point of, that I said, of think- thinking that it's related to the fact that people have got their hands on the scales, they're pulling their friends up, it's a bit of a boys club, is there any truth in that?

    3. BJ

      I think, but I think, I mean, look, I'm sad to say, Steve, I think that has probably been the way politics has been since the dawn of time. I think that politicians, I think politics has tended to be, um, factional, uh, since the dawn of time. I think it's tended to be just sad, but I think true. Um, I think the, the good thing is that in the end, the people who are really successful are the people who get things done that the people want done.

    4. SB

      Do you think it's a magnet?

    5. BJ

      And so, and so, and so, so, so it's a, it's a, it's a magnet for very determined characters who are willing to put themselves through a lot.

    6. SB

      Sociopaths?

    7. BJ

      To get things done. Well, I mean, also-

    8. SB

      And narcissists?

    9. BJ

      Well, I mean, um, have I used those words before?

    10. SB

      No, no, but that's the kind of person-

    11. BJ

      You're making me worried. It sounds like you're quoting me about, about politics.

    12. SB

      No, no. Maybe, maybe you have.

    13. BJ

      But yeah, but, but, but-

    14. SB

      The kind of person I think would be compelled and succeed in such an environment, um-

    15. BJ

      I think, I think you have to have a pretty thick skin.

    16. SB

      Okay.

    17. BJ

      But the, but because of the...... because of the way it works, the people who actually succeed are the people who really can drive something forward and, and deliver

  23. 1:07:07 – 1:10:21

    Do You Regret Brexit?

    1. BJ

      it.

    2. SB

      Closing up on Brexit, um, 62% of British people view Brexit as more of a failure, according to YouGov, and 9% consider it more of a success. Um, according to YouGov as well, 46% of British people say they should, there should be a second EU referendum in, in 10 years, compared to just 36% that say it shouldn't be. And according to-

    3. BJ

      You see... Okay.

    4. SB

      Let me just finish this, then you can respond.

    5. BJ

      No, go on. Yeah.

    6. SB

      Um, according to the UK's real gross added value, the GVA, a measure of the size of the economy, um, they say that there's approximately 140 billion less in 2023 in the UK economy compared to the, if the UK had stayed in a single EU market. According to the same thing, they say that 300 billion has been wiped off the value of the UK's economy, um, by 2035. And my last stat here is a report from the Center of European Reform in 2023 estimates the UK GDP was 5.5% smaller by mid-2023, compared to a scenario where the UK had remained in the EU. This equates to an economic loss of about 40 billion annually. And just as a business owner myself, I was looking at some stats around what business owners think, and about 33% of small businesses reported that Brexit has made it harder for them to trade with the EU due to increased paperwork and things like this. And the London School of Economics said that Brexit added 6% to food prices between 2020 and 2023. With all of this in mind, do you regret Brexit?

    7. BJ

      I'm sorry, not at all. Not at all. I mean, honestly. Uh, so we've outgrown Germany, uh, France, uh, for, since 2016 onwards. Uh, sorry, certainly outgrown Italy, uh, since 2016 onwards. Uh, last time I looked, Germany and, and Italy were both members of the, of the EU. And when it, you know, the, the statistics that you give, I mean, they are dwarfed, for instance, by COVID. Um, you know, even if I, even if you accept that, um, which I don't necessarily, uh, that, uh, Brexit has caused, uh, problems, it's also caused massive opportunities. Because we, because we were able to come out of the lockdown earlier than any other country... Remember, we, we came out of lockdown in July 2021. We ended, we ended all restrictions. And that meant that we had the fastest economic rebound of any G7 country, and that would not have happened, in my view, without the assistance of Brexit freedoms.

    8. SB

      Do you know the OECD? Do you know what that body is?

    9. BJ

      Yes, yes.

    10. SB

      They say the UK is the only major rich economy that remains smaller, poorer than prior to the pandemic, and Brexit may be a factor in that. And the government's independent watchdog, which I know you know, the Office for Budget Responsibility, thinks the UK will ultimately be 4% worse off than it would have been had it not voted for Brexit. When I... Do you know, in business, everything is a trade-off. Everything is a trade-off. So you must be able to identify the trade-off that the UK has made for all of the upsides that you claim Brexit has delivered. So I think it's intellectually honest of anyone to be able to identify both sides of the argument here. So what is the trade-off? What

  24. 1:10:21 – 1:14:13

    What Have The Downsides Of Brexit Been?

    1. SB

      has Brexit cost us?

    2. BJ

      I've cu- I've just gi- I've just

    3. NA

      What's it cost us?

    4. BJ

      Oh, I see, what's it cost us?

    5. SB

      Yeah.

    6. BJ

      Look, I think that the, it's certainly true that, um, the, the way that some of it is being managed by some of our, by our European friends is unnecessarily bureaucratic at the moment. I think that will get better. I, I, I, I accept that criticism. I don't think it's the end of the, the end of the world. But I do think ultimately, the advantage of being free to do your own thing, free to run your own country, to control your own laws-

    7. SB

      You didn't tell me a trade-off.

    8. BJ

      No, I have. I s- I s- I s-

    9. SB

      No, but the ec-

    10. BJ

      I s- I think-

    11. SB

      ... the impact for us in the UK.

    12. BJ

      So, bureaucracy.

    13. SB

      Yeah. But for me as an average citizen, what's the tr- what's the, what's the trade-off?

    14. BJ

      What's the downside?

    15. SB

      Yeah.

    16. BJ

      Well, I th- you know, you m- I th- I mean, uh, it's certainly true that some, some businesses are finding it harder to... There, there, there, there is paperwork that I don't think there needs to be and we need to fix that. But I think that the te- we have technological solutions to that. I don't think that we need to be part of a European empire of law, c- could get an ever denser and more detailed empire of law controlling our freedom and stopping us doing things we feel.

    17. SB

      Is there an economic trade-off?

    18. BJ

      I, I, I don't think... I think that ultimately, we will be richer as a result because-

    19. SB

      But in the, in the near term, we're gonna be poorer?

    20. BJ

      Well, I, you know... Again, people were very emotional about this. And look, can I just remind you, where, before the referendum, people said that... And no one ever holds these people to account. People said that there would be millions more unemployed, right? Do you remember that? People said there would have to be an emergency tax-raising budget if the people voted to leave the EU. Actually, uh, when I ceased to be prime minister, unemployment was at a 50-year low and our, and we had 620,000 more people in paid employment than before-

    21. SB

      Yeah, but-

    22. BJ

      ... the pandemic began.

    23. SB

      ... my, my point, point was about the economic-

    24. BJ

      So, so, no, I'm just, I'm just-

    25. SB

      ... uh, near term.

    26. BJ

      I'm just saying that people, people make all sorts of prognostications about Brexit and they say-

    27. SB

      But do you, do... The stats that I read you, do you believe them, that there's an economic struggle-

    28. BJ

      Well, people, peop-

    29. SB

      ... in the short, in the near term?

    30. BJ

      Peop- peop- people said that we would be, we would have a million people on the dole queue 'cause of Brexit.

  25. 1:14:13 – 1:18:41

    When Was The First Time You Heard About This Virus?

    1. SB

      (page flips) The next big thing was the pandemic. This was once you'd become the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom, um, and you have this pandemic begin to roll in. I was looking at your, th- the way you described that situation in late 2019, early 2020 in your book, and it appears that you had no idea of the severity of this virus that was rolling into the shores. When was the first time you heard that there was a virus that had come in from China?

    2. BJ

      Whatever the date was, I think it was either end of, uh, 2019, beginning of 2020. I, I, I can't remember ex- exactly when, but there's, there's a day when, uh, when I'm walking through the lobby of the House of Commons with the Health Secretary and he says, you know, there's a, "I'm worried about this, um, this Chinese virus." And-

    3. SB

      Was Matt Hancock the right person to be handling that? Because that is a generational, once-in-a-lifetime health issue.

    4. BJ

      Yeah.

    5. SB

      And in hindsight-

    6. BJ

      Yeah, I, look, I think he, I think he did a very good job, yes. I think he was, he was very energetic and-

    7. SB

      Was he the best person to be handling it?

    8. BJ

      I think it's, I think he, you know, I've said, I think he, he did a very good job, and I think that, um-

    9. SB

      Was he the best person to be handling it?

    10. BJ

      Look, I-

    11. SB

      In hindsight?

    12. BJ

      Well, I, I certainly think that he, well, yes. Because I think, yes, I think that he had the right mixture of energy and, and realism. Um, don't forget, we didn't know about the, the disease. We didn't know how lethal it was. We didn't know how contagious it was. And we didn't know how, exactly how it was transmitted. There was a lot of stuff we, we didn't know.

    13. SB

      Some quotes from your book here, you said, "The problem wasn't that I was ignorant to zoo- zoonotic diseases. The problem was that I felt I knew all about them. Um, after more than 30 years of writing about or dealing with new zoonotic-"

    14. BJ

      Zoonotic, yeah, yeah.

    15. SB

      "... diseases I felt I knew my SARS and my Ebola, so to speak, and I concluded two things. First, that these novel zoonotic plagues tend to sort themselves out, and second, that the greater risk of destruction from an- from these, from attempts to stop them by politicians, um, was their sort of attempts to contain the diseases, that the prevention would probably be worse than the cause in some respects. So when Matt Hancock started to talking about a new coronavirus, possibly from bats, and the risk that it would sweep the country, it was hardly surprising that I felt I'd heard this all before." (sighs) Little did we know.

    16. BJ

      Yes. I, I mean, so I think that's, I think that's, I'm, I'm being very honest there about, about, um, as I am throughout, uh, Unleashed, about the, my state of mind. Because, you know, I'd, I'd covered in great detail, um, the, uh, salmonella in eggs panic, uh, when millions of chickens were slaughtered, uh, needlessly. I'd covered the, uh, the bovine spongiform encephalopathy, uh, panic, Mad Cow Disease, when, uh, a vast proportion of the UK dairy, uh, cattle herd was slaughtered probably, uh, needlessly. Um, uh, the livelihoods of farmers were destroyed. Um, I'd been Mayor of London when we, we were threatened with the, uh, with the bird flu. Um, epidemic.

    17. SB

      So you did think it was a big deal?

    18. BJ

      And we'd laid, we'd laid on stocks of, uh, of Tamiflu, which turned out not to be, to be necessary. Uh, so, uh, and I've seen SARS come and go, uh, Ebola and, uh, and so on. And in each of these cases-

    19. SB

      So what-

    20. BJ

      ... what, what, what seemed to have happened was that, um, there'd been a, a rational anxiety about the risk of a zoonotic disease, um, often from Asia or wherever, um, we would get in a real... we'd do our best to get ready and then it would mysteriously leave, leave us almost completely unaffected. I remember the swine flu epidemic.

Episode duration: 1:53:37

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