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Brené Brown: Why we reach for armor instead of courage

Through emotional armor we protect ourselves short term but corrode connection; trust built marble by marble, vulnerability as the price of courage.

Steven BartletthostBrené Brownguest
Nov 3, 20251h 50mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:21

    Intro

    1. SB

      You are the single most requested guest.

    2. BB

      And let me tell you, this has not been easy.

    3. SB

      (laughs)

    4. BB

      Because we went to some hard places, but I don't think we'll ever talk about anything more important than this. Because it's not fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work. It's the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're afraid, and how that armor moves us away from love, connection, and our values. And the hardest work is being aware of, "What is my armor when I'm afraid?"

    5. SB

      Is that automatic?

    6. BB

      Oh (beep) no, it's training.

    7. SB

      So let's start with that then.

    8. BB

      Brené Brown is an icon whose world-leading research in shame, vulnerability, and connection...

    9. SB

      Has inspired companies like Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces... To build stronger leaders and help the everyday person unlock their full potential.

    10. BB

      Ready?

    11. SB

      Is vulnerability important?

    12. BB

      It is if we want to be brave with our lives, but we are raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness. Like in my family, we were allowed anger, but sad was not an option. You needed to be tough. So when I get scared, when I feel anxious, disappointed, I'm just angry. And so when you're raised without vulnerability, it'll put you in jeopardy. Like you want to know what vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so vulnerable that people choose to live disappointed rather than to get excited about something, and risk getting sucker punched by disappointment. Like there is no courage without vulnerability, because courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome.

    13. SB

      Wow, I've never thought about that before.

    14. BB

      But you can develop skills.

    15. SB

      Right, there's four steps to courage.

    16. BB

      Yes. We've taken 165,000 people through this work that included how to build trust.

    17. SB

      And I've heard about your marble jar theory. Could you explain to me what your marble jar... Look at how excited you are.

    18. BB

      I know.

    19. SB

      (laughs)

    20. BB

      So this is how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies. It's awesome.

    21. SB

      I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe, so if you could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show and the trajectory it's on. So please do double check if you've subscribed, and thank you so much, because in a strange way, you are- you're part of our history and you're on this journey with us, and I appreciate you for that. So yeah, thank you.

  2. 2:21 – 7:10

    What Made Brené Who She Is?

    1. SB

      Brené, in order to, um, understand all the work that you have done and the perspective that you have on the world, and also who you are as a anomaly in many respects, I think it's probably important that I understand your earliest context. Where you've come from, what shaped you?

    2. BB

      I'm stuck on a- a- am I- am I an anomaly?

    3. SB

      Of course you're an anomaly. Of course you're an anomaly. In fact, that should be of no surprise to you. I mean, if you look at your outcomes, your outcomes are anomalous, so one would assume that there's some form... There's something that made you an anomaly.

    4. BB

      I would say that I'm a fifth generation Texan. I came from a fair amount of dysfunction, parents doing the best they could with what they knew. Both coming from really, really, really tough upbringings that included, you know, poverty, addiction, and so probably a lot of the stereotypes you would think about fifth generation Texan: tough, don't cry. We were allowed a very small continuum of emotions were approval, you know, were approved, which were pissed off or okay. Like anger was okay, but no, you know, couldn't be sad really. Our vulnerability was not a thing. Vulnerability was weakness, and scary, and puts you in jeopardy. I felt like a real outsider at home and in school, but I was really good at reading people, reading situations. I think my- I think a therapist somewhere along the way said, "Yes, that's hyper vigilance." You're hyper vigilant. You know, I can see everything around me, I know everything that's going on. I can connect things very quickly that other people don't see. And there was laughter and there was love, but there was a ton of unpredictability.

    5. SB

      I was gonna say, isn't that typically what creates hyper vigilance, is some kind of need to be that aware when you're young?

    6. BB

      Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I think yes. Being fun loving was very valued in my family, and being tough. These were the values. These are- these are, on the parental scorecard, this is what got you an A. If you're fun, easy, you can, you know, shoot straight, spit far, fish well. Like really, drive fast, and so those things were very valued. Athleticism was very valued. Um, but those fun things could turn really hard very quickly.

    7. SB

      There was a big pause there, four second pause as you-

    8. BB

      Yeah, I can just picture it. Like it's fun until- it's fun until you've got a parent eje- ejected from a game for being so hard.

    9. SB

      And that was your father?

    10. BB

      Yeah.

    11. SB

      Oh, he was really hard then if he was ejected from a game.

    12. BB

      Oh yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    13. SB

      There's a photo I saw of you and your siblings where you're clutching your siblings, and I think you referred to it as you could see there was a certain fear in your eyes. Do you know the photo I'm referring to?

    14. BB

      Am I on a couch?

    15. SB

      You're on a couch. Is that-

    16. BB

      Like a yellow velour couch, like from the '70s?

    17. SB

      Yes. Yeah.

    18. BB

      I think about that picture. I like that picture, but there was definitely- I definitely had a protector role as the oldest. I mean, code name Sister Superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't joking. Like if things got hard between my parents and they would get in volatile fights, I would go get all my siblings, put them in my room-... I'd go downstairs and handle it. You know, like, I was definitely the protector.

    19. SB

      Physically volatile fights?

    20. BB

      Um, on occasion but more emotionally volatile.

    21. SB

      Screaming and-

    22. BB

      Oh, yeah.

    23. SB

      ... shouting?

    24. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    25. SB

      Same with my parents.

    26. BB

      Yeah. Just loud.

    27. SB

      There was a background of my whole house for my whole childhood, was just screaming.

    28. BB

      There was, uh, yeah, we had a lot of screaming and there's a certain, like, if you grew up with screaming, hearing screaming through a wall-

    29. SB

      Hmm.

    30. BB

      ... you know that sound.

  3. 7:10 – 10:34

    Parents Affecting Your View of Love

    1. SB

      And, and how did that change your model of love as a young person? It must have been... Because, I mean, I obviously feel the same way about, about my situation and, um, I think the lesson I learned was that love was like a prison, 'cause m- it was my mom doing the shouting and my dad was the prisoner and he wouldn't respond. So this, you've got a woman shouting at him for six, seven hours a day and him sat there like he's a, like an inanimate object, looking at the screen. And I remember thinking, "Oh, okay, so if I get in a relationship when I'm older then I'm gonna be a prisoner to a woman. Okay. Doesn't sound (laughs) , doesn't sound appealing." And if he moved to a different room, she'd follow him, so I avoided relationships like the fucking plague. I did well until about 27.

    2. BB

      And then what?

    3. SB

      And then someone got over the wall and corrected some of the evidence.

    4. BB

      They got over the wall?

    5. SB

      She got over the wall, somehow.

    6. BB

      Yeah. Steve got over the wall, damn it.

    7. SB

      (laughs) But that's your partner, not me. Just for context.

    8. BB

      Yeah. No, not... Yeah, not you (laughs) .

    9. SB

      (laughs) .

    10. BB

      Although you're doing a hell of a job right now. Um, you're like, you've crossed a piranha-filled moat that I like, um, but the drawbridge is like... I'm see- I'm gonna see, I'm gonna see, my Steve, my Steve definitely, definitely got over the wall. Um, but it was like game r- r- re- game recognizes game. He had a wall.

    11. SB

      Oh, okay.

    12. BB

      Yeah. And so we had long conversations about our walls and, and slowly through those conversations, we just, those walls crumbled with each other and we've been together now for 38 years.

    13. SB

      Wow.

    14. BB

      Yeah. Um, hardest thing I've ever done in my life. Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder.

    15. SB

      Yep.

    16. BB

      When I started dating Steve, well, when we got married, six months after we got married, this is, you know, you, you said for you love was gonna be pr- being a prisoner.

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. BB

      And having to just shut down to survive.

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. BB

      Right?

    21. SB

      Or run away.

    22. BB

      Run away. Right.

    23. SB

      Don't confront it in a conversation style, yes.

    24. BB

      No. No. Um, for me, six months after we were married, I went to go see a therapist and I said, "I cannot do this. I've got to get out of this marriage." And we had dated off and on for seven years before we got married, and I said, "I gotta get out." And she said, "Y- I could, y- this is hard. I, I could see how this is not working." And I was like, I had a twinge of defensiveness about Steve and I said, "What do you mean?" And she said, "He likes you so much more than you like you. It must be terrible." I was like, "Fuck you man, you're fired." (laughs) .

    25. SB

      (laughs) .

    26. BB

      I was like, I was so hurt. I thought, "What?" That's what I do. So if you, if, I'm gonna give you one of my tells. If I do a really high-pitched, "What?" that means I'm, um, that means I'm looking for my purse and I'm g- I know where the door is. Um, I, I, I, I just kept thinking, "What, what do you mean?" He said, "It's got, it's gotta be very com- uncomfortable to be with someone who sees you and really knows you and loves you so much when you have not found a way to see you and love you so much. It's gotta be disconcerting." What an asshole, man. Like, wow. And it was true. I had to get to this point where I was like I, maybe I should like me as much as he likes me and then make a better decision about whether this is gonna work or not.

  4. 10:34 – 11:37

    87 Human Emotions

    1. BB

      When you grow up and pissed off or shut down are your two emotional opportunities, like they're, you know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write about 87 emotions that I think are important to understand because the limits of our language are the limits of our world. When you have two buckets, then everything must go in those. And in fact, in our research over the last 15 years, we found the average person can accurately identify and name three emotions, happy, sad, pissed off.

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BB

      And so, in my family, sad was not an option. That was weakness. So you could be pissed or okay. So when I get scared, when I feel grief, when I'm anxious, when I feel disappointment, when I feel anguish, I'm just angry.

    4. SB

      There's two

  5. 11:37 – 15:23

    Why Did Brené Struggle With Self-Love and Belonging?

    1. SB

      sort of outstanding question marks in my head and they might be the same answer, but it's y- you said earlier on that you didn't fit in at school or at home, and I didn't understand why you didn't fit in at school or at, or at home. And then the other thing that's still a question mark in my head is, the therapist said to you that you, well, asserted that you didn't like yourself as much as he liked you.

    2. BB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      And I wasn't clear on what made you not like yourself.

    4. BB

      I wanted out of where I was raised. I wanted to leave everything I knew. And so, I always felt like an outsider. I didn't...... didn't wanna d- I mean, I wasn't popular. I wasn't dating a quarterback. That was a dream that my, my parents and their parents and their parents, you know? You were, you were a Bear Cadet, and you dated a quarterback, and you got a farm. So at... I felt not cute, not popular, not understood. And then at home, I wasn't easygoing. I was an- I was anxious and, and always ready.

    5. SB

      And the point about self-esteem, which the therapist sort of highlighted about not liking oneself as much as Steve liked you, where did that come from? Where is that related in some way?

    6. BB

      Oh, 'cause my parents parented with a very big, heaping dose of shame.

    7. SB

      Oh, okay. So if you accomplished something or you don't accomplish something, you're made to feel bad about it.

    8. BB

      Yeah. And a ton of it was about appearance, being fun.

    9. SB

      Appearance?

    10. BB

      Yeah. Yeah. Like, you know, big blonde hair with hot rollers, the higher the hair, the closer to God. You needed to be tough and strong and throw on a baseball cap and get somewhere really quick, low maintenance, and you needed to be a, a beauty pageant queen.

    11. SB

      Do you remember them ever being critical of your appearance in a way that has stayed with you?

    12. BB

      Oh my God, yes. I mean, I think not just them. I mean, like, I think having young girls and young women, keeping them from developing threats to their self-esteem is not just a parental thing. It's like, it's just like asking them not to breathe because the air is poison. Like, it's like every message from everywhere. You know, the fashion magazines, you'd read them, and you think, "Wow. I don't, I don't look like this. How am I gonna look like this?" You know, and you lather yourself up with baby oil, and you put lemon juice in your hair. You put tinfoil under your chin, get as much sun cancer as you could 'cause we didn't know.

    13. SB

      (laughs)

    14. BB

      You know, like, you, you'd... We all wore jeans that you had to put on with pliers with- for the zipper 'cause they were so tight. Appearance mattered. This is Texas, baby.

    15. SB

      You go off to university eventually, and not a straight line, but eventually, you get into university.

    16. BB

      Not a straight line. (laughs)

    17. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    18. BB

      That's the sweetest thing you've said to me. Um, I graduated from college when I was 29.

    19. SB

      W- Wow. So you become a, a research professor in 2001. And you've, uh, been a research professor and many more things, um, ever since then. You get your PhD in social work at the University of Houston in Texas between '96 and 2002, and really for the last couple of decades, you've focused on research, understanding people. Obviously, there's so many more strings to your bow in terms of, like, media and podcasting and authorship. But over those, since 2001, we're in 2025 now, just over two decades.

  6. 15:23 – 16:09

    How Has the World Changed in the Last Two Decades?

    1. SB

      My first question is, um, how has your perspective on... How has the world changed in those last two decades in your view?

    2. BB

      Jungians would say before any great progression, there is a regression, and I think that when you look at various admin- I know you have a very global audience. When you look at administrations, political administrations across the world, and you look at how power is being used right now, it will tell you a lot about what they're afraid of.

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. BB

      Wha- What is that face? We're gonna have to pause.

  7. 16:09 – 19:38

    Is Power Driven by Fear?

    1. BB

    2. SB

      I was thinking about a conversation I had recently with my, my best friends. It must have been this weekend. Yeah, it was this weekend 'cause it was my friend's birthday in Manchester, the UK, so we flew in. Um, and we had a conversation about how the leading political narrative at the moment... This might be adjacent to what you're saying, but it's the way I interpreted it. The leading political narrative at the moment that seems to be getting people elected is if you say, "Those people with that skin color are the reason for the pain and anguish in your life. It's actually the people below you that are coming over the border or crossing the, the English Channel on dinghies that are ruining your life." And it seems to be, like, a really effective narrative to-

    3. BB

      100%.

    4. SB

      ... t- to earn, earn power, both in the US and the UK. Like, the central narrative that is swaying elections it seems at the moment in the UK and the US is those Brown people on that boat or cr- coming over the border are the reason for the pain in your life, and it seems to work, and that seems to be the thing getting power. So that's kind of what ran through my head when I heard this idea of, like, power and what you're scared of. Actually, s- think I inverted it to, "If I can tell you what to be scared of or find the thing you might be scared of, or whatever, then I get power," but maybe it goes the other way too.

    5. BB

      I don't think we'll ever talk about anything more important than this, to be honest with you. That's why I thought your response was so interesting 'cause you, you, you may... If I was gonna, like, do the textbox above your face-

    6. SB

      Hmm.

    7. BB

      ... it would have said, "Well, holy shit, that's interesting."

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. BB

      Because wh- when you use power, especially power over, 'cause there's multiple kinds of power. There's power with and to, and power within, so people that use power with and to and power within work from a belief system that's completely different. We believe that power is infinite and can grow when shared. People who use power over work from a belief system that power is finite, like pizza, and if I give you any, I have a deficit. So it's gotta be hoarded and protected and not shared. Power over is really important to understand because when people are using power over, they're definitely letting you know what they're afraid of because that's what they're focused on, and they're tapping into, and I think this is absolutely true...If you give people someone to dislike and blame for their pain, and they look different than the people who are voting, you will win 100 times out of 100. If you say, "I see your pain. I can tell you exactly the source of it, and I can fix this for you."

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. BB

      "And the source of it is gonna be easy to see," you're not gonna see yourself in them.

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. BB

      So that narrative that you are talking about, it is a full circle. People in power use power to address issues that they're afraid of. They gain power by leveraging fear and giving people an enemy. That's how this works. It works like this. I mean, I spend 95% of my time in organizations, working with C-suite leaders and senior leaders. This, this is how it works in organizations, how it works in political, you know, how it works in faith communities. This is how power works in general. So power over is a very specific kind of power, and it's especially dangerous, because in order to maintain it, you have to engage in periodic bouts of cruelty towards vulnerable populations. You have to remind people what you're capable of.

  8. 19:38 – 22:40

    Four Types of Power: How to Be Successful as a Leader

    1. BB

    2. SB

      So there's four types of power you, you, you speak about in, um...

    3. BB

      Damn, you have that in your notes?

    4. SB

      ... in Strong Ground, yes. Well, why are you surprised?

    5. BB

      I don't know.

    6. SB

      Th- there's four types of power in leadership you speak about. There's the power over, which is controlling or exploiting. Uh, there's power with, finding common ground and building collective strength. Power to, which is giving others agency and recognizing their potential. And power within, which is honoring differences and self-worth. So as a leader of a business, if I were to be successful, are you telling me that I need to stay away from power over, and adopt another power within this list of four?

    7. BB

      Yeah, I think what we've seen be very successful over time is power with, power to, and power within. So, collaborative power, co-creation power, self-awareness, metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing how you think and learn, so power with and power to. Power over is excruciatingly difficult to maintain. We're not neurobiologically hardwired to stay in fear for very long. So if I work for y- uh, if I work for you, and you're using power over to lead me, you're threatening me with my job, you're threatening me with consequences, you're threatening me with demotion, one of two things is gonna happen for me neurobiologically. I am, uh, either going to just become numb to it. It's not, it's not gonna be able, you're not gonna maintain, I can't maintain that constant level of fear. It's just too demanding, just physically demanding. Or I might get hyper normalized. I might just like, "This is, this is what I work in. This is like crazy. This is it." You know? But every now and then, you're gonna have to do something that demonstrates to me how chaotic and cruel you can actually be. Like, you're gonna have to engage in periodic acts of cruelty to remind me that the fear is real and to put me back in it. And so one of the things you're seeing right now... I mean, like, we i- in the US, the deportation immigration issues. This is not a president that has, you know, tightened his belt on immigration more than other previous presidents. But we've never seen masked people grabbing people off the street while children hold onto their legs screaming, "Mom, mom, mom." We've, we, we've never seen that before, right? But we've had other presidents probably exceed the deportation numbers that we're seeing. But we've never seen that level of cruelty and display. That is a real display of cruelty as a reminder of who h- who holds power and who does not.

  9. 22:40 – 26:35

    Systems Theory

    1. BB

    2. SB

      It also makes me think of relationships when you're talking about h- uh, you know, how people are controlled with power over. A lot of people talk about like sort of narcissistic relationships or abusive relationships where they don't feel like they can leave, or, uh, you know, they don't leave, and they end up becoming acclimatized to the treatment.

    3. BB

      I'm a big systems theory th- I'm a systems theory person. I think in systems theory, I was trained in systems theory. I think if you don't understand sys- sys- systems theory, at least if you're leading an organization right now, you're gonna fall behind, because the complexity inside and outside of organizations is such that we need a framework to understand how all of these individual systems are bumping up against each other. Like, you p- you probably bump up against 100 systems a day, right?

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. BB

      And so what I would imagine, the story I would make up about your success, 'cause this is true of any systems theory, is in order for systems to thrive and grow, they have to keep permeable boundaries, meaning they have to allow feedback to flow in and out from other systems-

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. BB

      ... to be aware. So I'm just gonna give you a very g- good example. I'm very excited about the female, the experts you had on-

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. BB

      ... around menopause, women's life. I mean, I'm so excited about that.

    10. SB

      Hmm.

    11. BB

      Like, just to be honest with you, like, Marie Claire is my doctor.

    12. SB

      Oh, really? (laughs)

    13. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Haver. So, um, what is interesting is the systems that just that podcast bumps up against.... you know, and the systems that would be sending feedback that, "Hey, this is not for me. I'm not clicking on this."

    14. SB

      Mm.

    15. BB

      I- I- I've shared that first one with 100 people.

    16. SB

      (laughs)

    17. BB

      You know, because there's a reality to our lives that is uncomfortable for people, but those are your partners and your moms and your, you know, and your bosses, and it's real.

    18. SB

      Mm.

    19. BB

      And I can guarantee you, if this was happening with two dudes-

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. BB

      ... like, it'd be a ga- bajillion-dollar whatever, over a trillion, gajillion. I don't know. Um, but just thinking about that one podcast and the systems that you're touching, health, women's issues, um, family systems are affected. Like, that podcast hits 20 systems that I can think of in my head right now.

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. BB

      The divorce rates of people, of women in their 50s and 60s.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. BB

      I mean, right? Yes or no?

    26. SB

      Yeah, 100%, yeah.

    27. BB

      Right. So, a healthy system has permeable boundaries, meaning feedback is flowing in and out all the time. What happens when the world gets complex is we start not wanting the feedback. The complexity is too big, so we start shutting down those permeable boundaries. Well, what happens to a system where the boundaries are no longer permeable? It atrophies. And in the po- in the process of atrophying, the system becomes self-referencing. Are we good? We're great. Are we right? We're right. Are we on target? We're on target. Because the boundaries of the system is, are no longer craving outside feedback, even when it's tough. And in businesses today, the geopolitical realities, the market changes, AI. I mean, it's crazy.

    28. SB

      Mm.

    29. BB

      And so our predisposition to shut down uncertainty and complexity is the biggest threat to the systems in which we work and live. The self-protect, close the wall, put up the drawbridge, fill the moat with piranhas, we just don't have that luxury. We've got to keep the, the boundaries permeable. We've gotta keep learning, guessing, unlearning, relearning.

    30. SB

      One of the

  10. 26:35 – 34:26

    The Role of AI and Social Media in Shaping Society

    1. SB

      added complexities is the rise in algorithms, and a- and actually, when I think about-

    2. BB

      Ugh.

    3. SB

      ... algorithms that are powered by AI, they're gonna be even better at knowing what you wanna see, so that you'd spend time, so that you can see more adverts, which means probably the best thing to show me is either something really fearful or just to confirm what I already believe.

    4. BB

      100%.

    5. SB

      An algorithm that was doing the opposite probably wouldn't be an enjoyable experience for the average human brain. It would cause too much dissonance, too much discomfort.

    6. BB

      But great for democracy.

    7. SB

      Great, yeah. Fantastic. But terrible for, for running a business and selling ads. So, any company that tick- takes that approach will go bankrupt. This is why TikTok, I think, have been so successful, is the algorithm is... Uh, look, I don't use TikTok. It's a... I have a TikTok account. I've, I don't have the app on my phone. But, um, from what I hear is it's so unbelievably addictive. People describe it to me, and they're like, "Oh, my God. It's so addictive."

    8. BB

      But this shit is the devil.

    9. SB

      Yeah. Yeah. But it's... People are driven by incentives, right? And you, your, your sh- your share price is gonna tumble, and you're gonna be fired. And you're gonna lose your s- your status and your power if you don't do that. I'm playing devil's advocate. Obviously, I'm not. (both speaking at once)

    10. BB

      No, (both speaking at once) no, I agree. What do you think the solution is? And what responsibility do the bros who run these tech platforms have?

    11. SB

      It's complicated.

    12. BB

      Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me.

    13. SB

      Well, and I just think it's complicated because what, w- what an objective party would say, who's just looking at the incentives of these groups of people, is if they don't do it-

    14. BB

      Someone will.

    15. SB

      ... then China will. So, even with AI now-

    16. BB

      Yeah, 100%.

    17. SB

      You know what I mean? I'm like-

    18. BB

      Yeah.

    19. SB

      ... I've sat with all these experts, and I keep hitting up against this wall, which is, okay, if we just banned people in the United States from pursuing this super intelligence strategy, then Russia and China get there first. Then the United States, unfortunately, are gonna end up being China's French bulldog. And actually, I can't refute that. I go, "No, you're right," 'cause we'd, you'd have to literally lease the technology off them. It would be so powerful and s- give such an economic advantage that you would have to lease it off China. So, okay, I guess Sam Altman does need to crack on or else... So, it's complicated.

    20. BB

      I mean, this is where I end up every time.

    21. SB

      I mean, look what ha- happened with TikTok. China made an algorithm. It was unbelievably addictive. The United States have just had to buy it off them because they were scared that the data was gonna be used against the United States. It's a prime example. Like, China were like, "Fuck it. We don't care."

    22. BB

      Yeah, right.

    23. SB

      Yeah. And they made an unbelievable algorithm called TikTok, which just captivate... You know, the youth are all just, like, losing their brains, so... I don't know. I don't know. It's tough. It's rough. Spiritual crisis.

    24. BB

      Yeah, I mean, you just laid it out. You just laid it out. We're emotionally dysregulated. We're distrustful of each other. We don't trust ourselves very much, and we're disconnected. I can't give up on people though. I'm not built that way. Like, I just believe that we are more good than greedy. You know, I- I was in conversation with Trevor Noah at an event, and I mentioned this term that I- I was really excited about, and he challenged me on it. And I said, "I think what we need is cognitive sovereignty." We need to wrestle control away from the algorithms and decide what we consume, what we read, how we think, think critically. We need to think about our attention and our focus as commodities that people are after, because they're after them, right?

    25. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    26. BB

      He had an interesting point though. He always has interesting points, don't you think?

    27. SB

      It's so tough to, to talk to Trevor 'cause he's so, he's always got an interesting point.

    28. BB

      He's always got an interesting point, dammit.

    29. SB

      (laughs)

    30. BB

      Um, and he's funny, but he said, "No, we need less cognitive sovereignty, Brené." And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He goes, "Everything's about the For You page, everything's for you. We need communal sovereignty." He's like, "You know, the whole problem is that your For You page is completely sovereign, like you intellectually and spiritually..." I'm, I'm, I'm paraphrasing what he said. I'm sure it was like funnier and better-looking, but... (laughs)

  11. 34:26 – 41:12

    Wisdom From Psychology and Life Experience

    1. BB

    2. SB

      In those twe- in those 20 years of your, 20+ years of your career, what have you been exposed to from a 30,000-foot perspective? Like, what, what are the, the wide range of reference points that you draw upon to be the person that you are today? And, you know, 'cause you've had, you, it feels like you've got a very wide range of references. Clearly, you, you know, you're someone that cares a lot about history. That comes through in your answers, but I'm wondering in your career, like what are, what are the experiences that you've had? Have you been working directly with patients? Is it aca- academic reference points you're drawing upon?

    3. BB

      Yeah, um, no one's ever asked me this, which I've been grateful that no one's asked me, um, so what a pain in the ass.

    4. SB

      (laughs)

    5. BB

      But, um, because no one's gonna like the answer.

    6. SB

      I'm excited about the answer now.

    7. BB

      Everything. Like, every single thing. Um, yes, I, you know, I love history. Yes, I read academic papers all the time. Yes, I wake up in the morning, and I read, because of the nature of my work, I read The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, Bloomberg, the Financial Times. Like I, yeah, me, I, I, I read a, a lot. But there's a chapter in the book that was one of my favorite to write on the transitions home from work.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. BB

      And how, how, how tough they are. And how, if you're like me, you've had a very frustrated partner look at you more than once in your life and say, "Hey, I know it was stressful. I don't work for you. Change gears."

    10. SB

      Yeah.

    11. BB

      Have you ever had that?

    12. SB

      No comment.

    13. BB

      No comment. (laughs)

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. BB

      Yeah. I use a metaphor in that book, in this chapter, of a lock. And how did that come to me? Because I was reading the book series The Rivers of London-And in that book series, there are two gods of the Thames, and the Teddington Lock is where, out- right outside of London in Teddington, is where custody changes for them. So I went to the Teddington Lock 'cause I was interested. I met the lock master that runs the lock. She gave me a three-hour lesson that day. We let narrow boats through the Thames. I learned how a lock works, and that's the metaphor that I use to talk about the research on, what do we do when we spend all day locking in, hyper-focused, compartmentalizing, getting shit done? And then instead of going home to our partner, when we get home, we spend 30 minutes in the garage on TikTok 'cause we can't bear to go in. So why do we do that? Because we need a lock-through period. Ch- we need time to go into a chamber, metaphorically, change levels, let go of where we were, lower ourselves to the rhythm of what we're doing now, cognitively would call it cognitive and domain shifting, and we need time. So I looked at the lock master at, uh, Teddington and said, "This shit is taking a long time. Can we get this chamber filled up a little bi- quicker?" And she said, "Locking through takes what locking through takes. If you rush it, you risk capsizing." We get home, and then we walk in the back door, and it's like, "I can't find my shin guards. I think I left them on the pitch. Where are my goggles, Mom? Oh my God, you didn't sign the permission slip. I had to sneak into the zoo." You know, and you're like, "Take me back to work where I'm the boss of everything." You know? So where do I learn those things? Well, cognitive and domain shifting come out of psychology. Gemma, the lock master at Teddington, there's wisdom everywhere. I put it together through stories and metaphors. I mean, another thing in the book, I mean, I'm standing on the sideline at DKR, the University of Texas Longhorn football stadium-

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BB

      ... um, and I'm standing with Emmanuel Acho. Do you know Emmanuel?

    18. SB

      No.

    19. BB

      Yeah, he's great. He, he played for the Longhorns. He played for the NFL. Now he's a writer. So I'm standing there, and we're watching the game, and I look at him, and I go, "How would you define pocket presence?" And pocket presence is an American football term. So do you know American football?

    20. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    21. BB

      Okay, so I'm a quarterback. I'm gonna get the ball, and I have to throw the ball, or run the ball, or hand off the ball to get the ball down the pitch, down the field, right?

    22. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    23. BB

      And when, when the ball is snapped and the ball is put into motion, there's about 12 to 1,400 pounds of really angry people trying to drive me into the ground.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. BB

      The people that are protecting me from those defensive guys are called my offensive line.

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. BB

      And the way they do it is they form a pocket around the quarterback, and the quarterback uses that time to decide, "Where am I gonna throw the ball? Am I gonna run the ball?" And pocket presence is the ability of a quarterback to use the, on average, 2.8 to 3 seconds he has to read the field, understand where the defenders are, and make a decision. And so when I asked Emmanuel Acho, "How would you define pocket presence?" he said... And I want you to think about this in terms of your business. "The ability to read the field without seeing all of it and trusting your team well enough to make a move even though you can't see everything."

    28. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. BB

      What are the skill sets you need right there? One, temporal awareness. You gotta know how much time you have to get rid of that ball and get it down the field. They, they say Tom Brady, who played for the Patriots, does any of this ringing a bell?

    30. SB

      Yeah, that 18.

  12. 41:12 – 44:21

    What Type of Connection Should People Be Looking For?

    1. SB

      One of the things that, um, perhaps is, is, throughout your work is this idea of connection. I did a mushroom... (laughs) I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend a couple years ago, first time I've ever done it, and, um, the message that came through for me was, it was about connection, and that word has had a fond place in my heart ever since as being really, really important, and we live in a society that's more lonely than ever before, more disconnected in many ways, as you described when you're referencing the spiritual crisis that we're living in. This word connection, what does that mean? Does it mean on an individual basis? Does it mean me having friends and relationships? Is that connection? Is that the type of connection I should be looking for? Or does it need... Do I need to, like, do you think people need to ladder up further to their city, their town, their world, to the community, to something bigger, God? What do, what does connection mean in this context?

    2. BB

      Yes. I think the answer to that question is yes. We're neuro- neurobiologically hardwired to be in connection with other people, and in the absence of connection, there's always suffering. Always suffering in the absence of connection. So I think...I mean, just how we're built, mirror neurons, you know, our ability to sync up neurobiologically when we feel connected and are hearing each other. So, to me, connection is the ability to be in a relationship where we can both give and receive, where we feel seen, heard, believed, valued. That is, that human connection is really important on a micro level, one-on-one with other human beings. I think a sense of belonging and a sense of place, and I don't know that that necessarily needs to be a location, but... a sense of being a part of something bigger than you, I think is also important. So love and belonging, connection, irreducible needs. I, I think spirituality, I define spirituality as being inextricably connected to other people by something bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe that's God, maybe that's fishing. Like I, I, you know, it's different for other people. For me, I'm, faith is one of my values and I'm a, a pretty serious God person. Um, I'm a pretty deep person of faith. I guess I would ask somebody, what is that thing that transcends difference? Political difference, ideological difference, race, gender, you know, belief systems, class. What is it that brings you to a common humanity place? Like for me, it's God. That's, it's a big challenge 'cause like I, I try to work from an ethos where I try to find God in the face of everybody that I meet, even if I wanna punch you in the throat. I try to like, like back, that's my thing. In some way, I'm connected to you-

    3. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    4. BB

      ... whether I like it or not, and whether I like you or not.

    5. SB

      And when you talk about

  13. 44:21 – 47:30

    Belonging vs. Standing Alone

    1. SB

      belonging, it's interesting. In your book, Braving the Wilderness, which I think, uh, the question is kind of summed up by the subtitle here, the quest for true belonging and the courage to stand alone. This appears to be a dichotomy or a contradiction-

    2. BB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      ... to belong but also to stand alone.

    4. BB

      Mm-hmm.

    5. SB

      Why are both of these important? Why is it important to belong? What does that mean? And, and why is it also important to stand alone?

    6. BB

      'Cause I don't think you can truly belong to anything or any, or, or any group if you don't belong to yourself first. True belonging requires us to be who we are, not to change who we are. That's fitting in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to belonging.

    7. SB

      Hmm.

    8. BB

      Which takes us both back to our childhoods, right?

    9. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    10. BB

      Yeah. Fit in, fit in, fit in, fit in. The problem is that that chameleon kind of skill set means that in order to fit in, the first person you betray is yourself. We've gotta be able to stand alone, and that's what's happening right now in the world. I mean, if I, if I look back at Braving the Wilderness, that was maybe the only prophetic book that I think I've ever written. Like that, like, like that, I don't think I'm prophet-like, but man, did I call what was happening in terms of the big sort into ideological bunkers where we are gonna get to a place where I don't even know you, but I'm gonna call you friend because we hate the same people. And you over there, I actually do love you. You're a family member of mine. But I'm not, you know, because we don't believe in the same things, you have no meaning in my life. Like it's like, we have gotten to the place where ideological bunkers, and those are so dangerous 'cause here, you and I, like let's say, let's say that we have the same belief around immigration. Um, so we're gonna flip this table over and we're gonna get behind it in our ideological bunker, and we're gonna be like, "Yeah, we're right. And these guys are fucking crazy and fuck y'all." You know? And then one day, I'm gonna turn to you and say, "You know, one thing I'm wondering about is how are we gonna solve the problem with the folks coming over in the dinghies from France? 'Cause I don't think we're gonna be able to go without solving it, because we do have an employment issue and a housing crisis." And then you go, you're out. My, my care for you, my connection with you, completely dependent on you not questioning anything we agreed to back here. Well, that's counterfeit connection. What's real connection, like I gotta know what's going on in your mind 'cause your face is like, we gotta play poker. T- we have to put that on our agenda.

    11. SB

      (laughs)

    12. BB

      (laughs) What are you thinking?

    13. SB

      I was just thinking about

  14. 47:30 – 53:54

    Making a Divisive Podcast

    1. SB

      being a podcaster, and I sit here with all types of people. So I had Kamala Harris sat here-

    2. BB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      ... uh, three, four days ago, and I'll have someone on the right sit here.

    4. BB

      Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

    5. SB

      And, and then I'll have, we had Michelle Obama, then I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll have the opposite of whatever Jordan Peterson is.

    6. BB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      And I was just thinking about how, um, how that's also kind of made me feel like I don't belong because that is quite rare. There's probably not a podcast on earth that has had both Michelle Obama and Jordan Peterson.

    8. BB

      No.

    9. SB

      Yeah. And then Kamala Harris after that. Like I didn't manage to scare Michelle off. I didn't scare Jordan off. And so you get, you kind of get attacked from both sides.

    10. BB

      Oh, I mean, look, if you're not, if you're not getting threatening shit-

    11. SB

      (laughs)

    12. BB

      ... from the far, here, the far left or the far right, if you're not getting both, you're not doing your job.

    13. SB

      Amen.Yeah.

    14. BB

      Period.

    15. SB

      But it's tough because-

    16. BB

      Oh, God. It is heartbreaking.

    17. SB

      Yeah.

    18. BB

      It will break your heart, and it will remind you of why standing alone is on the front of that book.

    19. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    20. BB

      Because what it will do, it, is it, is winnow the right word? It will narrow your belonging, your true belonging-

    21. SB

      Yeah.

    22. BB

      ... down to a very few-

    23. SB

      Yeah.

    24. BB

      ... people.

    25. SB

      I mean, I, I completely understand how it happens that a podcaster like me will end up picking a side, because there is safety in numbers.

    26. BB

      Well, 'cause there's an ideological bunker, 'cause we flip the table over.

    27. SB

      100%. At any point, you know, when the left attacks you, I'm like, "Well, the right looks pretty..." (laughs) When the right attacks you, you go, "Oh, the left looks pretty..." Because standing in the, in no man's land is, is not the place you wanna be. I know I'm never gonna succeed in this. Like I know I'm never gonna succeed in converting peop- uh, converting people to be nuanced and to not get viscerally angry when I have someone on the show who's on the right or viscerally angry when I have someone on the show who's on the left.

    28. BB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. SB

      I'm already aware that when the Kamara episode comes out, it's just gonna be a bunch of people that didn't listen, and within the first three minutes, the comments section is just gonna be, "Fuck this video."

    30. BB

      Yeah.

  15. 53:54 – 54:37

    Pros and Cons of Curiosity

    1. SB

      the first time, which I enjoy.

    2. BB

      I think you're pretty good at that 'cause you are insatiably curious.

    3. SB

      Hmm.

    4. BB

      It's, it's lovely and terrible.

    5. SB

      Why terrible? It's terrible for an avoidant. I found this out recently. I've known it my whole life, but I found it out recently 'cause I had a conversation with someone's, I think if someone's uncomfortable with vulnerability, then I'm like their fucking worst nightmare.

    6. BB

      You are. (laughs)

    7. SB

      (laughs)

    8. BB

      Which is interesting 'cause I don't ex- She is super vulnerable.

    9. SB

      Oh, really?

    10. BB

      Uh...

    11. SB

      Hmm. Maybe not.

    12. BB

      Carefully optimistic vulnerable.

    13. SB

      Yeah, that's probably okay.

    14. BB

      Like, like you're co- you're cognitively a believer-

    15. SB

      Yeah.

    16. BB

      ... and trying to move the rest of you to it. (laughs)

  16. 54:37 – 1:03:21

    Responsibility of a Platform to Assess Guest Credibility

    1. BB

      You've got the journalistic ethos of equal opportunity, insatiable curious guy, right?

    2. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    3. BB

      What do you think the responsibility is of someone who has a platform-

    4. SB

      Hmm.

    5. BB

      ... to vet or understand the credibility, especially when it comes to science or those kind of things, of what their guest is saying?

    6. SB

      I think that we, w- f, uh, the school of podcasters haven't really, we don't have the, um, the ex- the training that journalists do, so we're almost catching up in that regard, especially if you become a big podcaster because you're kind of held t- you're held at a, in a different level. So more recently one of the things we do is we, we've hired a, I mean this recently, it was a year and a half ago, we hired a PhD who does exactly that, who after this comes out will go through everything that you said and then put on the screen things that were not within scientific consensus.

    7. BB

      But that in itself is a decision.

    8. SB

      Yeah. Yeah. It is a decision.

    9. BB

      It's not a choice without consequence either.

    10. SB

      No. Some people don't like it.

    11. BB

      What led you to that choice?

    12. SB

      When your podcast reaches lots of people, you're forced to (laughs) kind of going, goes to what I said earlier about the political stuff, you're forced to really get clear on what you believe and like what matters to you. And one of the things that matters to me is that the stuff we put into the world, we feel like it's helping people, even if it's not nice. And it kinda goes to something that I read in your work which is like our objective isn't to be nice, it's to be kind.

    13. BB

      Oh, yeah.

    14. SB

      And say for example my convers- the conversations we have about AI, like I'm well aware that that's not gonna necessarily make you feel great, but I think the avoidance of discomfort in, in, through history-

    15. BB

      Oh, God.

    16. SB

      ... hasn't led to great places. So like if you think there's a bus coming, I can, you know, it's, I can pretend there isn't, but if I think that there might be a bus coming and if, if experts and, uh, they're telling me there's a bus coming, I think we should have a conversation about the bus coming. And actually me having that conversation, I get messages all the time which is like, "Please stop talking about this subject, it doesn't make me feel good." I'm very anchored to like what my, my, my job is here and I think it's, we can push people further towards, uh, we can progress, we can create progress through honest conversations. So when the podcast got bigger and you get more and more, you get attacked more for-

    17. BB

      Yeah, yeah.

    18. SB

      ... any, any of your guests that you have on-

    19. BB

      Yeah.

    20. SB

      ... you have to get clear on what matters to you and what your job is. And so one of the things I thought was actually when we have these conversations I want them to be as accurate as they possibly can be. S- for the listener who might be confused 'cause it's a confusing world, we're in this new world of-

    21. BB

      So true.

    22. SB

      ... democratized med- media. So we do that.

    23. BB

      I really respect that, I just wanna say. Um, I don't think that that choice is the easy choice.

    24. SB

      What is the easy choice do you think?

    25. BB

      The easy choice is I'm gonna let you say whatever you want and I'll let my listeners sort out if it's real or not.

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. BB

      And I'll take no responsibility for the credibility or the facts that are being presented.

    28. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    29. BB

      Um, what I think is interesting about what you're doing is... it just seems like a very solid approach where... I'm a big believer in science, you know, I'm married to a physician, I'm a social scientist, like I'm, I'm, I'm not gonna be the golden child of this administration when it comes to science for sure. Like I have a "I love science"-

    30. SB

      Mm-hmm.

  17. 1:03:21 – 1:04:18

    Ads

    1. BB

      path.

    2. SB

      The world of business looks entirely different today than it did 15 years ago. Back then, building a brand meant having huge budgets, warehouses, office space, and lots and lots of staff. But now you can start a business with your laptop, an idea, and the right tools, and I would know more so than anybody else, because that's exactly what I did. Shopify is one of our longstanding sponsors on this show, and they're a brand I often refer people to when they're starting their businesses, because it's a tool that contains many more tools within itself, and when you're starting out, everything is everywhere. It's messy and it's confusing, so having everything in the same place is incredibly useful. Shopify puts store design, payments, inventory, shipping, and even AI tools all in one place, and you can sell directly from your website or on social media, essentially wherever your customers spend their time. It's truly a brilliant business tool. So if you wanna give it a go, head to shopify.com/bartlett and sign up for your $1 per month trial period. That's shopify.com/bartlett. On that point

  18. 1:04:18 – 1:09:17

    Importance of Vulnerability

    1. SB

      about me and vulnerability, is vulnerability important? 'Cause there's a lot of performative vulnerability taking place in the industry.

    2. BB

      For sure.

    3. SB

      Is, is it an important thing for my health, happiness, my future to be a vulnerable person?

    4. BB

      Well, let's define it. Um, vulnerability is the emotion we experience when we h- have, when we are up against uncertainty, risk, and emotional exposure. So vulnerability is what I feel. It's the cringe, the awkward, the thing that I, the emotion I feel in times of uncertainty-

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. BB

      ... risk, or emotional exposure. So it was really interesting because I had a hard time helping people understand, because there's, we are so raised to believe that vulnerability is weakness, that it took a trip to Fort Bragg, working with Special Forces, to ask soldiers a question: "Give me a single example of courage in your life, one example that you've witnessed or you're, you yourself have done, one example of courage that did not require uncertainty, risk, or emotional exposure." No one could answer it. Finally, a young soldier stood up and said, "Three tours." There is no courage without vulnerability. So is vulnerability important? It is if we wanna be brave with our lives. If we, if we want to be able to manage ourselves in a way that's values-aligned and courageous, we have to be able to reconcile how we feel when we're uncertain, at risk, or exposed. I mean, and really weirdly, the next week after the trip to Fort Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks, the football team, NFL team.

    7. SB

      Yeah.

    8. BB

      Ask the players, "Give me an example of courage on the field or off that did not require vulnerability," they said that it's not possible. There is no courage. Like, if you're doing things in your life, in your work, and there's no risk, no uncertainty, and no exposure, then they're not brave. If you know how it's going to end, that is not courage. Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome. Courage is saying, "I love you" first. That's... You, you wanna know what vulnerability is? "I love you" first. Have you ever said, "I love you" first?

    9. SB

      I'm not sure.

    10. BB

      Yeah.

    11. SB

      It's been a while.

    12. BB

      But it's hard. It's, you know...

    13. SB

      Sorry, I need to g- give context. It's been a while since I've been in that situation.

    14. BB

      Well, you've had to go first.

    15. SB

      Yeah, where I've had to go first, yeah.

    16. BB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, there's this great story that I tell about... I wa- I gave a talk here, it was actually in LA, and afterwards a kid came up to me, he's probably 22 or 23, and he said, "Can I tell you a story about your work and how it's really changed my life?" And I was like, "Sure." And a kind of a crowd grew around, and this is, like, the last time I ever got pinned, like, not being able to exit a stage f- 'cause it was such a traumatic, it wasn't traumatic, but it was, like... He said, "Well, I was dating this woman, and I was so crazy about her, so I took her to eat to our favorite restaurant, and I waited until the dessert came 'cause we love this chocolate volcano, and I ordered it and I said, 'I love you.' And she looked at me and she said, 'I think you're awesome, and I think we should date other people.' And then she Ubered home." And so I was like, "Goddamn, this is the worst story I've ever heard." (laughs) "This is not a good story." And he said, "So I got in my car and I drove home, and the whole way home I just kept saying to myself over and over, 'Fuck Brene Brown, fuck Brene Brown.'" (laughs) I was like, when, when does this... When, when's the turn on the story, you know? And he said, "I got home and I walked into my apartment and I pushed the door open, and both my roommates were wired in and they were on their computers and they looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going on?'" And he said, "I told her I loved her, and she told me I was awesome." And one of my roommates looked at me and said, "Wh- what the fuck were you thinking? That's not how it works. When you are going toward them, they go away. So you're always kind of going away, so they come towards you." And he goes, "Oh, oh, no. No. I don't wanna, I don't wanna be that dude. I was daring greatly." And he said both of his roommates just got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man! Right on!" Like, there is no courage without vulnerability. How can you say you're brave if you're not putting yourself out there?

  19. 1:09:17 – 1:18:23

    Managing Fear of Vulnerability

    1. BB

    2. SB

      So many people have been through things which have made it very, very difficult for them to be vulnerable.

    3. BB

      Okay.

    4. SB

      I was a- speaking to someone yesterday who was cheated on, bunch of attachment issues in their early childhood, and funnily enough, when I was talking to her about... I was asking her questions about... 'Cause I'm a very deep person. I, this carries over into my personal life. I was asking her questions about the things, you know, she'd been through and whatever else, she just shuts down. And she told me that she, she, um... What were the exact words? She said that she finds vulnerability to be a form of intimacy that she tries to stay away from, because she needs to really, really, really trust the person before she opens up. And I think this is a trend you see across a lot of people. They, they won't open up enough to form a connection-

    5. BB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      ... because they've been hurt before by opening up, and it feels too scary to do that. And that results in them being s- single, alone, unhappy, so on and so on.

    7. BB

      Yeah. I mean, I think there's, there, what you said was so loaded with so many things. So first of all there's thir- theirs, there's this very interesting relationship between vulnerability and trust.

    8. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    9. BB

      And how does that work? And w- people always ask me what comes first, trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you first, then I'm vulnerable? Or am I vulnerable first, and then I trust you? And I think it's a very slow stacking. We get to know each other, I share a little bit. I don't, I don't share like, "Hey, nice to meet you, Steven. Here's my darkest, horrible, most painful trauma." You know, 'cause that, that is actually... That kind of litmus testing is actually a form of armor. I'm gonna throw something at you that our relationship in no way has been built long enough to he- hold. You're going to go away, and I'm going to use that as verification that vulnerability is dangerous. Like, that's litmus testing.

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. BB

      Let me prove to you that you're not trustworthy. "Duh-nuh-nuh-nuh, nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh-nuh. Oh, I see you're backing away. That's what I thought." I'm backing away because we haven't built a relationship that can bear the weight of this story. Can we start, can we start small?

    12. SB

      Okay.

    13. BB

      Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, trust.

    14. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    15. BB

      I think (clears throat) I go, in th- in my work, we call that, like, the smash and grab. Like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna hit you with something really big and then watch you go away and use it as evidence.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. BB

      Yeah. And it takes a really skilled person to say, "Yeah, I'm really... I'm taking in what you told me. I wanna be respectful and honor that, and I don't have a way to file it right now 'cause I don't know you well enough. So I appreciate the share." I mean, we also call it spotlighting. So, like, if I had a military-grade spotlight that they use in the wilderness, I work with the military a lot, and I, I picked it up and put it in your face right here, what would you do physically?

    18. SB

      Oh.

    19. BB

      That's what, that's our reaction to too much vulnerability too fast.

    20. SB

      Yeah.

    21. BB

      Like, "Yeah, I don't kn- I don't know you."

    22. SB

      Yeah.

    23. BB

      Um, so you're talking about the slow stacking of courage and, uh, vulnerability and trust, and then you're also talking about that when (clears throat) when we've had a lot of hard things happen to us, I think this is where I really believe in the democratization of coaching and therapy, that a lot of times we have to work with people. Like, we have to get help to be able to open up and take off some of the armor that we put on, because sometimes that armor that we put on, it's fricking survival.

    24. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    25. BB

      I mean, and you wanna start adding, you wanna start adding variables like race, gender-... like, you know, any- anything where there's social systems also at play. That's survival. Like, telling me right now in my career, like, "Hey, you should be vulnerable with your new team and, and talk about your previous failures," you know? Well, of course I could do that, and I would do it and everybody would clap, and they'd think, "Oh, man, she's so brave." And take the new person who's a young Black woman, or the new first LGBTQ person on a team and say, "Hey, tell, tell every, uh, don't, don't tell anybody shit. Develop trust first. Develop, uh, see how, how... Trust your own instincts about the accountability of this group to hold themselves accountable for their behavior." Like, vulnerability is not more necessary for any of us than anybody else, but it's certainly more difficult for other p- for, for some people, for sure. And I think what's hard about that, what's so painful, probably the most painful part of my career, is that regardless of why the armor is on, without vulnerability you cannot access the experiences that are the most meaningful in life. Love. To love someone is to be vulnerable from the time you wake up to the time you go to bed. You know that. You're in a relationship. To love is to be vulnerable, right?

    26. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    27. BB

      And have you ever buried someone you loved?

    28. SB

      No.

    29. BB

      Like, I lost my mom two years ago. Like, my kids, it's like having your heart live outside of your body. Like, to love is to be vulnerable, 'cause it's to risk grief and losing. Belonging is vulnerable. The most, the most vulnerable human emotion? Joy. Joy is so vulnerable that when some of us get close to it, we dress-rehearse tragedy to prepare for disappointment. Like, it's so vulnerable that we don't even let ourselves feel joy, because we're so afraid someone's gonna rip it away and we're gonna get sucker-punched by disappointment. Yes or no?

    30. SB

      Yeah.

  20. 1:18:23 – 1:20:53

    Overcoming Negative Traits

    1. BB

    2. SB

      It appears you've overcome various traits of old Renee Brown.

    3. BB

      No, I'm overcoming.

    4. SB

      Overcoming?

    5. BB

      No, I'm not over. I have not overcome.

    6. SB

      Have you overcome anything?

    7. BB

      Yes, the belief that I will overcome anything. I've overcome the belief that I've overcome the belief that I will ever arrive. I am grateful for the skills that I have, that are new skills, that keep me more aligned with the person, the mom, the partner, the leader that I wanna be. But I, I am-... mindful a- all the ti- I try to stay very mindful, that I am scary when I'm scared, that I catastrophize very, very easily, and that's painful for everybody around me. And I don't need to be liked, I just need to be myself. Like, but those are things... 'Cause I will, I will sit down, like two days ago, and be like, "Oh my God. It'd be so freaking easy to be liked here." I was like, "This, this'll be, this would be a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit. I don't do that anymore, ever."

    8. SB

      Two days ago?

    9. BB

      Yeah.

    10. SB

      Ahead of what?

    11. BB

      Just with a group of people that I knew what it would take to be liked.

    12. SB

      And you made the choice to-

    13. BB

      Just to be myself.

    14. SB

      ... be yourself?

    15. BB

      Yeah.

    16. SB

      Why?

    17. BB

      Because now the person I'm gonna betray last is me. Yeah, I hope I see you again, but not that important.

    18. SB

      Some people might find that somewhat demoralizing to know that they, they too might never cure parts of themselves that they're desperate to change. I think people, you know, they often come to podcasts like this, or read books like yours looking for solutio- fixes to not liking myself, to the way that I react to my emotions. They wanna fix it 'cause if they can fix it, then they can be happy.

    19. BB

      I don't think that's in the consideration set for a very beautiful reason, that if we could fix it and never have to wrestle with it again, we would be so short on grace for other people that we would be tyrants.

    20. SB

      So you think it, it creates a form of empathy for others?

    21. BB

      Yeah, I mean, like, I'm not gonna... I have like really serious boundaries. I'm a very boundaried person,

  21. 1:20:53 – 1:25:30

    Improving Self-Esteem

    1. BB

      but when I see someone behaving a certain way, I was like, "Oh, my asshole sees your inner asshole right here." I ge- I get it. I get what you're doing. I'm not gonna tolerate it. I'm gonna set a boundary around it, but I'm not really judging you for it. It's just, that behavior is not okay right here.

    2. SB

      But you like yourself now?

    3. BB

      Yeah. Yeah. I do. I, I... Yeah, I do. I do. I can, I can, I can, think I can say that pretty... I like what I'm becoming.

    4. SB

      And for anyone that doesn't like themselves, what, what work has had to go into getting to the point where you like what you b- you're becoming?

    5. BB

      I think the hardest is... Maybe one of the biggest findings of my research over the last 25 years is, it's not fear that gets in the way of us being brave with our lives and our work, it's armor. Everybody's afraid. It's okay to be afraid. What's dangerous is the armor that we reach for to self-protect when we're afraid and how that armor moves us away from love, connection, and our values. And so I think the hardest work is, for me, constantly being aware of what is my armor? What am I, what am I grabbing for when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for when I wanna protect my sense of self-worth, my ego? Like, and, and how heavy that shit is. You know, at some point I had to wear it because that was survival for me growing up. But this is the big, this is the big developmental milestone of middle age, which you are squarely entering, which is kind of when the universe grabs you by the shoulders and pulls you really close and says, "I'm not fucking around anymore. I gave you gifts. Choosing not to grow into them is not benign. There's a consequence for that, and your armor is getting in the way. You're a grown-ass person now. You have different choices. Let go of what doesn't serve." And that is the big milestone, I think, that we have to wrestle with in midlife, what no longer serves that's preventing us from growing into who we wanna be.

    6. SB

      And is that where vulnerability comes into the picture 'cause-

    7. BB

      Oh, for sure 'cause all the armor, all the armor is about vulnerability.

    8. SB

      It requires a huge amount of, um, I was gonna say self-awareness-

    9. BB

      Yes.

    10. SB

      ... that some people just don't, could probably never accomplish, I mean.

    11. BB

      That's why I think metaphor is helpful. I mean, most of us can understand if you back me into an emotional corner, what are you going to get? Like as a leader, I know my armor, perfectionism, micromanagement. I get super intensive. I get recklessly decisive. I know my armor, and my team knows my armor. I think my armor in my personal life, especially when it comes to my kids, when I get... when I feel vulnerable is control, control, control. Take over all the chess pieces.

    12. SB

      But that's not a good idea.

    13. BB

      It's not possible.

    14. SB

      Hmm.

    15. BB

      It's just, it's just pretend. That's called anxiety. Like, pretending that you can control the chessboard of other people's lives, y- your own, much less other people's lives. But I think I do it out of...Fear.

    16. SB

      Is fear the opposite of courage, or is it-

    17. BB

      No, I think the opposite of courage is armor.

    18. SB

      Armor, okay.

    19. BB

      I think the opposite of courage is self-protection.

  22. 1:25:30 – 1:27:31

    Four Steps to Courage

    1. BB

    2. SB

      To be courageous in this context, whether it's as a leader or in another environment, you talk about these four steps to courage. You talk about it in Strong Ground.

    3. BB

      Yeah. This was research that emerged, like, 15 years ago, and I was really, really nervous 'cause I'm a grounded theory researcher. I'm a qualitative researcher. So a grounded theory is only as good as its ability to work new data. So you develop a hypotheses or a theory based on data, and then as you collect more data, does the hypothesis hold? And, you know, this, we collected that data pre-pandemic, you know, pre-, pre-a lot of things. And so I was really worried about the four skill sets of courage, which are identifying and understanding your core values. I would love to do this exercise with you sometime. Um, two, understanding what gets in the way of you wrestling with vulnerability, kind of owning it and moving through it constructively. Three, how to build trust and how to become, super important, trustworthy to yourself. Self-trust. Because one of the first casualties of failure or disappointment or setback is we lose our o- our ability to trust ourselves. Our ability to make good decisions, our ability to take care of ourselves. And then the last one, which is my favorite, because it can really, I've seen it really change an organization, is how to get back up after failure and disappointment. How to reset, how to be, how to manage your own bounce when hard shit happens. So those are the four skill sets of courage. Again, evidenced based, observable, measurable, and teachable. We've taken 165,000 people through this work across 45 countries, collected data on all of it. It's so exciting and it withstood all of the complex changes over the last five years, including AI.

  23. 1:27:31 – 1:32:34

    Building Trust With the Marble Jar Theory

    1. BB

      Organization links is where we do our work. I don't, I'm not a therapist or a clinician. I don't work with, like, families or individuals. I mean, I have a therapist, but I'm not one. Um, so I think you can develop sk- courage skills.

    2. SB

      The- the third point is br- braving trust.

    3. BB

      Yeah.

    4. SB

      And, yeah, I've heard about your marble jar theory, so I got a jar of marbles.

    5. BB

      I saw that.

    6. SB

      Um, could you explain to me what your marble jar... Look at how excited you are.

    7. BB

      I know.

    8. SB

      You're good. (laughs)

    9. BB

      Um, so this comes, you know, where- where is, where- where do I get my information?

    10. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    11. BB

      Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She comes home from school-

    12. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    13. BB

      ... the front door closes. She slides down the door into a heap, sobbing. "Oh my god, Ellen, are you okay? Are you hurt? What's going on?" She says that something hard happened. She shared it, like, very confidentially with one or two of her friends during recess. When she got back to the classroom, they had told everybody in her class, all 30 kids. Everybody was laughing and pointing and making fun of her. And she said, "I will never trust anyone again." And my response immediately to m- in my mind was, "Damn straight, that fuckin' person. You trust your mama and that's it." Like, that was my response. But again, that's not the right thing to do, right?

Episode duration: 1:50:40

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