Brewdog Founder: The Untold Story Of One Britain’s Fastest Growing Companies: James Watt | E157

1. 0:00 – 1:36

   Intro

   1. SBSteven Bartlett0:00

      You've had a lot of controversy over the last two years: bullying, lying, unfair dismissals, all of this stuff. What do you say to that?

   2. JWJames Watt0:06

      I did. I did push people too far.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett0:10

      How fast did BrewDog grow?

   4. JWJames Watt0:11

      We have grown, on average, 87% a year.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett0:14

      Fucking hell.

   6. JWJames Watt0:15

      Everyone told us, "Make your beer cheaper. Change your name. Change your packaging," and we didn't listen to any of that. How can we get our name out there with no money at all? So we had to do things that were intentionally provocative and sometimes we kinda crossed that (laughs) e- edge as well. The best entrepreneurs have got to find a way to do things differently to how other people are doing things. We've got two very simple tests that we apply to everything that we do. So the first test is... This is the worst public health crisis for a generation. I've only ever been in tears once in, in my job, and I broke down in tears addressing our team in March of 2020, thinking that we're not going to be able to pay you, we're not going to be able to keep you in a job. I think people don't realize, like, being a CEO is a very, very lonely job at times.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett1:06

      That day. Talk me through what it's like to be a CEO when 300 people sign a letter making these allegations-

   8. JWJames Watt1:13

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett1:13

      ... about toxic workplace culture, unfair dismissals, all of this stuff. So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself.

2. 1:36 – 9:00

   Your early years

   1. SBSteven Bartlett1:36

      James, what is the... You've listened to this podcast before, so you know I have a theme of (laughs) where I start. I'm, like, trying to frame it as a surprise-

   2. JWJames Watt1:44

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett1:44

      ... that I'm gonna start with your childhood. But... (laughs) Um, first, thank you for being here. It's, um, you know, it's always lovely to hear that people are, um... guests that we have on also kind of understand the format. Where I wanted to, to start with you is to take you right back, because that, for me, is always the context of, of somebody. So when you, when you look back, and when I read back at your early years in that small fishing community you grew up in, um... Was it Gardenstone?

   4. JWJames Watt2:07

      Yeah, Gardenstone, up in the Northeast of Scotland.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett2:09

      When you, when you look back yourself at the foundational shaping, um, pivotal events of, like, those early years that are responsible for who you became in your life, the first events that you look back and go, "Now, that's the first dot I can connect," what are those?

   6. JWJames Watt2:26

      I think there's, uh, I think there's a few. So, we grew up in a tiny fishing village northeast of Scotland. My dad was a fisherman. My mom was a schoolteacher. And being a fisherman is, is tough. And, uh, I just remember, like, the kinda hard work ethic instilled from, like, grandparents, whose, uh, grandfather, who was also a fisherman, my dad, who was a fisherman. So, kind of really hard working, really honest, kind of salt of the earth type character. But then he was always away and I'd be at home with my mum, and my relationship with my mum was, was never that good. And I think I struggled a lot when I was, when I was a kid. Um, I had quite a severe speech impediment when I was, when I was grown up and, um, this is something I haven't spoken about before, so... (laughs) Um, so that kind of always made me a little bit of an outsider, a little bit of a loner. Always felt a bit socially awkward. As I grew up and became a bit older, I had quite severe acne, so again, outsider, loner, socially awkward. And I think it's a trait that a lot of entrepreneurs have in common, they're a bit socially awkward. And I think if you're less likely to read social cues-

   7. SBSteven Bartlett3:24

      Mm-hmm.

   8. JWJames Watt3:24

      ... then you're less likely to do the same thing as everyone else, which in business is amazing.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett3:27

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JWJames Watt3:28

       Um, and also a bit of a inadequacy complex when I was a kid, as well, so kind of Mum's standards were quite high, so whatever I did wasn't good enough. 98% on a test, why wasn't it 100? Won a swimming competition, why did I win it with an even better time? So, like, any achievement wasn't quite good enough. So, growing up, bit of a loner, bit of an outsider, bit of a, kinda inadequacy complex as well, which, I think from a business perspective, those things combined are good, but made it kind of quite tough for me at certain stages of my childhood.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett3:58

       On that point of... I can relate m- a lot, a lot to a lot of that, um, especially the, the i- the thought of feeling a bit like an outsider or feeling somewhat different. Were you bullied in school?

   12. JWJames Watt4:08

       A little bit. I mean, the speech impediment was something that all the kids loved to make, make fun of, and then the, kind of, acne that I had that was quite severe in high school was something that a lot of kids made fun of as well, which just kinda makes you feel even more like an outsider when you're growing up, I guess.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett4:20

       Speech impediment?

   14. JWJames Watt4:21

       Yeah. When I was, like, four, five, six, seven, eight, there was, like, certain words and certain letters that I just couldn't say, and I kind of worked really hard with a speech therapist and got there, but for a few years, it was, uh, a lot of words I couldn't say, and because of that, I just wouldn't speak to people, 'cause I was scared to let them see that I had a speech impediment. So, very quiet, very insular, liked spending time by myself, and that kind of shaped a lot of my early childhood, I would say.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett4:43

       When you said that you, you think entrepreneurs have that trait in common where they somewhat feel like outsiders, why do you think that's a common trait in entrepreneurs?

   16. JWJames Watt4:51

       For me, the best entrepreneurs, they've got to see things differently and they've got to find a way to do things differently to how other people are doing things. So if you go and do the same as everyone else, you're just gonna get the same outcome as everyone else, and if you start off a business that way, you're just gonna get lost in the mix, and I think 90% of small businesses fail within the first two years. So, I think outsized returns or doing something amazing with a business only comes when you bet in some way against the conventional wisdom.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett5:16

       Mm-hmm.

   18. JWJames Watt5:16

       And if you're not tied to the conventional wisdom or tied to social cues, I think you're more likely to see that.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett5:21

       Mm-hmm.

   20. JWJames Watt5:21

       Uh, there's a quote that I love which is, "If, uh, 99% of people think you are wrong, you're either massively mistaken or about to make history."

   21. SBSteven Bartlett5:29

       Mm-hmm.

   22. JWJames Watt5:29

       So it's just that, maybe not caring too much what people think-

   23. SBSteven Bartlett5:33

       Mm-hmm.

   24. JWJames Watt5:33

       ... and finding your own way to do things and finding your own way to come at a business, an opportunity, or a problem. And I think if you're a bit of an outsider, it maybe helps with that.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett5:40

       Mm-hmm. You, you mentioned your mum as well.

   26. JWJames Watt5:43

       Yeah, I mean, my relationship with my mum was, was always quite tough, so nothing, nothing was ever good enough for, for Mum from when I was a kid, um, had a few issues later, and I, I haven't spoke to my mum for over 20 years now.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett5:56

       Really?

   28. JWJames Watt5:57

       Yeah.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett5:59

       Since you were...In your teens?

   30. JWJames Watt6:02

       Yeah, in 19, 20 was when, when I stopped speaking to Mum.
3. 9:00 – 13:23

   Being a sea captain & what it taught you

   1. JWJames Watt9:00

   2. SBSteven Bartlett9:00

      What did you, what did you, what did you learn then? Sort of pr- practically and actionably, what did you learn from... Was it five years, roughly, you spent on that boat?

   3. JWJames Watt9:06

      Yeah, yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett9:06

      So you come out of university, you try out as a lawyer for... You know, working in laws for tw- for two weeks.

   5. JWJames Watt9:11

      Yeah. Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett9:11

      Then you go and join your dad.

   7. JWJames Watt9:13

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett9:13

      And eventually you work your way up to being captain on that boat.

   9. JWJames Watt9:16

      On that boat. Yeah.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett9:16

       And you're in... You're on a trawler in the North Atlantic-

   11. JWJames Watt9:18

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett9:19

       ... which is a r- stupid thing to do. (laughs)

   13. JWJames Watt9:21

       (laughs)

   14. SBSteven Bartlett9:22

       If you're me, and you're as big of a, of a cow- coward as I am, going out on those seas. I've seen the, the documentaries. Is it like the documentaries?

   15. JWJames Watt9:29

       Yeah, it's, it's very much like those documentaries. So some of those were made in my home port up in Scotland, and I know some of the people that were on some of the, those boats. So I mean, very much like that. The North Atlantic in January and February is a pretty scary place.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett9:41

       What did you learn from doing that about life and people?

   17. JWJames Watt9:45

       I think the main lesson that I learned is... And it's one I've applied to the business as well, you only really see what someone's made of when things are difficult. It's only when things are going wrong, it's maybe a force 10 storm, you're trying to get the net back in the boat, it's dangerous, it's gnarly, it's two o'clock in the morning, everyone's been up for 24 hours, it's at those times that you usually see what someone's made of. And I think that's something you can take to business as well. When everything's going well, it's easy for everyone in your team to look like a superstar. It's only when things are really, really difficult that you see who can you depend on. And I've almost got this test that I use when I'm building my management team. And we've got an amazing management team at the moment, but the test is, would I want to be in the deck of a North Atlantic fishing boats at 2:00 in the morning in a storm with everything going wrong with this person by my side?

   18. SBSteven Bartlett10:33

       Mm-hmm.

   19. JWJames Watt10:33

       And if the answer is yes, it's, uh, usually kind of bodes well for how we work together and how we look to buil- build the business together.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett10:39

       And on th- in that example of would I want to be on this, on the deck with them at-

   21. JWJames Watt10:42

       Ooh.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett10:43

       ... 2:00 AM in the morning when everything's going wrong, what are the character traits-

   23. JWJames Watt10:46

       Mm-hmm.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett10:46

       ... which would make someone in that situation a good person to be with on that deck?

   25. JWJames Watt10:53

       Yeah. There's something called the Stockdale Paradox that I think is, is really important and kind of ties into this. So, um, James Stockdale was, um, an American naval captain who was in a prisoner of war camp for six years. And, uh, it's actually in the book Good to Great by Jim Collins, which is a fantastic business book. And he's got a philosophy which is you've got to confront the brutal facts of your current reality without ever losing faith that you're going to prevail in the end, and I think it's just such an important lesson for life and business. You've got to believe that you're gonna get there in the end, but that belief can't blind you from tackling the most difficult things about your current reality head on-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett11:28

       Mm-hmm.

   27. JWJames Watt11:29

       ... with resolve, with optimism. But you've got to kind of hold that paradox in your, in your hand. We're going to get there, we're going to achieve this thing, but we've got these huge challenges at the moment. Let's lean into those challenges. And I often start my business meetings with my senior team in the very same way. "Okay, let's put the agenda at the side. Let's everyone write down on a piece of paper what's the three most difficult things you're facing in this business at the moment, and let's discuss those before we discuss anything else."

   28. SBSteven Bartlett11:54

       And why is that important?

   29. JWJames Watt11:56

       'Cause it means you face the problems and the challenges, and I think it's so easy for a business, especially a business like ours, we've always got so many exciting projects. So at the moment, we're opening a fantastic location on the Strip in Las Vegas-

   30. SBSteven Bartlett12:06

       I've seen that. Mm-hmm.
4. 13:23 – 26:25

   The start of Brewdog

   1. SBSteven Bartlett13:23

      why did you leave that, that role?

   2. JWJames Watt13:25

      Well, I didn't, I didn't quite leave it, so, um, Martin, who's my best friend from, from high school, we go way back, we're flatmates-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett13:32

      Dickey.

   4. JWJames Watt13:32

      Yeah, Martin Dickey, we were flatmates at university together, we started making beers at home. Um, so in Martin's mum's garage, we would make beer, and we started to get into beer when we tasted American beer called Sierra Nevada Pale Ale. We tasted it, it was like, "Wow, we love this." So we would dedicate our weekends to kind of trying to recreate that in Martin's mum's garage, and in 2007, we'd always wanted to start a business, we decided to turn our hobby into a job, so we, we got a £20,000 bank loan, I had £30,000 of life savings, and we decided to set up this business. We set up in a derelict, dystopian industrial unit in Fraserburgh in a godforsaken industrial estate, and we, we had no money, so it was beg, barter, bootleg to kind of set this facility up, we had, like, old dairy tanks, our water tanks were plastic tanks from the local garden center 'cause we had no money to buy stainless steel tanks, and we set, set out in this slightly naive, I think you could call it mission, to build one of the world's best beer companies with, uh, with two humans and a dog, no experience, no capital, no business plan, nothing but just a huge amount of passion for a fantastic beer, a huge amount of disillusionment at the status quo of the beer market, which was essentially just big mass-market global mega-corporations who turned beer, a thing that we love, into a lowest common denominator comedy- g- commodity product, and we wanted to make fantastic quality beers and opens- open people's eyes to this diverse spectrum of flavor, taste, quality that they never knew existed and take them on this beer journey with us, and that's what we set out to do in, in 2007. But the first, the first few years were, were so, so tough.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett15:07

      What gave you the right to start a beer company?

   6. JWJames Watt15:09

      (laughs) Nothing at all.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett15:10

      Yeah. You can't make... Right? I- I can't make beer.

   8. JWJames Watt15:12

      (laughs)

   9. SBSteven Bartlett15:13

      How, how did you go about educating yourself on how to make beer?

   10. JWJames Watt15:17

       So Martin studied how to make beer and distilling at university, so Martin-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett15:20

       Ah.

   12. JWJames Watt15:20

       ... has a really kind of solid technical background, and he's always kinda taken more of a lead in the beer side of the business, and I've always kind of been more in the kind of business side, the sales side, the marketing side, the expansion side of the business, so yeah, first couple of years, it was me selling beer at local farmers markets, um, selling beer out of the boo- my beat-up Volkswagen Golf, but we couldn't afford to pay ourselves, so I moved back in with my dad, Martin moved back in with his mum. I had to start working in the fishing boat again part time just 'cause nobody wanted to buy our beer. Everyone told us, "Make your beer cheaper, make your beer with less flavor, make your beer with less hops, change your name, change your packaging," and we didn't listen to any of that. I mean, we were determined to, okay, if we're going to fail, let's fail doing something that we love, let's fail doing something that we're insanely passionate about, and let's just keep going and see if we can find a way, find a breakthrough to somehow make that work, and that breakthrough for us came in 2008.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett16:14

       And you, you described that period as being one of the toughest of your life, that first year. Uh, g- g- give, give me a, a, a, a detailed flavor of the, the hardest... Is there a moment in that period where you, you account maybe your hardest day?

   14. JWJames Watt16:27

       I think so, yeah. So we did everything, the two of us, so it was just the two of us, so we did the accounts, we did the sales, we made the beer, we packaged the beer, like the whole thing, and we filled bottles by hand, so fill by hand, put on a cap by hand, put on a label by hand. The tanks held about three and a half thousand bottles of beer, so that took us kind of 20 hours to do. So we, we did that, and then straight through the night, the next day I was kind of, "Okay, let's, let's go and see if I can sell some of this beer." So I had a few cases in the back of my car, Punk IPA, which is our flagship beer today was the, was the beer that we were trying to sell back then as well. I visited six or seven different local establishments and gave them my best sales pitch, "It's handmade, it's local, it's full of flavor." Everyone said no. The last person, um, didn't just say no, he tasted it and he just spatted back into the bottle. (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett17:15

       Really?

   16. JWJames Watt17:15

       (laughs) And just gave me the bottle back and essentially told me to get out. So I remember just walking to the car and just wondering, "Okay, what the hell am I going to tell the bank? We've got this loan. We can't pay the loan back. We can't pay the rent in the building. I've been up for almost 30 hours. This is going nowhere. Like, what can we do to try and get this business to survive?" And for me, that was, uh, that was a very tough moment.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett17:36

       Why didn't you quit? Would've been easier. Could've just gone back to the boat, could've been captain, back out on the sea, lobsters, all that.

   18. JWJames Watt17:44

       There was no way we were going to quit.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett17:45

       Why?

   20. JWJames Watt17:45

       We were gon- uh, we were gonna die in a ditch for this thing. It's... We were just so passionate about it, and back to that inadequacy complex, this voice in your head, "You're not good enough. You can't do it." If I quit, that voice wins.... couldn't let that voice win, so we, we kept on going, we kept on going. And I think any business story, there's a moment where you get a bit of luck, where you get a bit of good fortune. So for us, that came in 2008. We sent some beers into a Tesco beer competition, so this was at a time that we were selling, let's say, 10 cases a week at, at most. Sent the beer to the Tesco beer competition, kind of forgot about it and got back to local farmer's markets and all those things. A few weeks later, got a phone call from Tesco saying that we'd finished first, second, third and fourth in this Tesco beer competition. So I was like, "Okay." So I went down to-

   21. SBSteven Bartlett18:34

       Wait, is that the same beer that the guy spat out?

   22. JWJames Watt18:36

       Same beer the guy spat out.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett18:37

       Really?

   24. JWJames Watt18:37

       Came first, came first. Came first.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett18:41

       The same beer?

   26. JWJames Watt18:41

       The same beer.

   27. SBSteven Bartlett18:42

       Same temperature? (laughs)

   28. JWJames Watt18:43

       I think so. (laughs)

   29. SBSteven Bartlett18:44

       Wasn't flat?

   30. JWJames Watt18:45

       I think so.
5. 26:25 – 38:59

   Your marketing principles

   1. SBSteven Bartlett26:25

      And then, like, go- going, going to your, your marketing thesis, 'cause this is really what's defined, erm, BrewDog in the eye of the consumer. In the eye of someone like me that doesn't honestly drink beer, but knows about the brand and considers it to be a famous brand and watched it on LinkedIn and social media over the years build its sort of acclaim.

   2. JWJames Watt26:42

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett26:42

      What is your, like, your principles that underline your marketing thesis? 'Cause your marketing thesis is very, very different to, to pretty much nearly all brands in this country. There's maybe a 0.1% that maybe you've copied or that have been inspired or that, you know, chicken and egg, I don't know who came first, but it's a very unique thesis towards marketing. What, what underpins it?

   4. JWJames Watt27:01

      Eh, we've got two very simple tests that we apply to everything that we do from a marketing perspective. So the first test is, would or could another business do this thing?

   5. SBSteven Bartlett27:10

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JWJames Watt27:10

      And if the answer is yes, we've got to seriously consider why we're doing it. The second test is, if I spend a pound on this, is it gonna give me a 10X return compared to how a competitor would spend that pound? So we are in an industry dominated by global behemoths of businesses who are hundreds of times our size, and we are, we're closing that gap and we want to close that gap. But we only close that gap by making our market and our communications, everything we do work so much more effectively than theirs. If our market is only as effective as theirs, we don't close that gap and we lose. So the two tests are could or would another company do this? And is it gonna give me a 10X return versus how my competitor would spend that money?

   7. SBSteven Bartlett27:49

      And if I'm thinking about how to get a, drive a better return on marketing, you know, and then I think about what you've done, I see, well, we've got to be probably bolder to win share of voice. We've got to try and win headlines in more extreme ways, because nobody's going to be writing about you for, for the fun of it if you're a smaller sort of challenge, challenger brand. Then the second thing I, I think is kind of we've got to do that on new platforms. We can't f- fight out on TV or in newspapers, 'cause those are where you kind of throw huge amounts of money and you get a return. So new platforms and new approaches, and that's very much kind of signifies what I've seen from BrewDog. Very, very bold.

   8. JWJames Watt28:26

      Very bold and intentionally bold, and, and especially bold in our early years when we had no budget whatsoever. So the challenge was, how can we get our name out there with no money at all?

   9. SBSteven Bartlett28:36

      Mm-hmm.

   10. JWJames Watt28:36

       So we had to do things that were intentionally provocative, that were on the edge, and sometimes we kinda crossed that edge as well.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett28:42

       Yeah.

   12. JWJames Watt28:42

       But that enabled us to get our name, our message, our business out there with no budget at all. So we have driven a tank through the streets of London. We've thrown taxidermy cats out of a helicopter over the Bank of England. We've put Vladimir Putin on the front of a beer label. So we've done a lot of things, low budget, high impact. But we've tried to make it that everything we do ties back and is underpinned by what we're passionate about. So it does... so there has to be a connection there. So does this reinforce what we believe in, what we're trying to do as a company? 'Cause otherwise it's just hollow and it's fake and it's false. So how does this reinforce the kind of core beliefs that drive this business, which is trying to build an alternative business and a huge passion for fantastic beer.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett29:20

       One of the, the more extreme things, I saw the Vladimir-

   14. JWJames Watt29:22

       Yeah.

   15. SBSteven Bartlett29:22

       ... thing. Uh, what else have I seen? (laughs) I think, I think I've seen it all, because I'm, I'm obviously a marketeer-

   16. JWJames Watt29:27

       Yeah.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett29:27

       ... so, and running a marketing company and ch-

   18. JWJames Watt29:29

       Yeah.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett29:29

       ... seeking inspiration from lots of different brands and seeing what they're doing and the impact it's having, especially on social media, which is my, my battleground. Um, the, the thing I read about more recently was that you, you put in a complaint about your own beer, which triggered press.

   20. JWJames Watt29:43

       We did. So this was all the way back in 2008. And we had a few running battles with a few bigger players. One of them was the Portman Group. So the Portman Group was an industry, still is an industry regulator. And for me, it's a thinly veiled cartel funded by the big drinks businesses who've got a vested interest in making sure that small businesses are not suc- successful. And there was a few rulings at the pout that were just so, so...... silly and frivolous that we wanted to make a statement, so we complained about one of our own beers to make a meta statement about how silly this process is, and how essentially corrupt it was as an organization funded by the big beer companies, big drinks businesses who've got a vested interest just in making sure the small ones are not successful.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett30:26

       How, how is that like? So you make a beer that is really high in AVB. Is that, was that the correct term?

   22. JWJames Watt30:30

       It was, yes.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett30:31

       (laughs) AVB.

   24. JWJames Watt30:31

       We made a beer, we made a beer called Tokyo 18%. Now, if you looked at the newspaper headlines in the UK when we launched that beer, you s- would have thought that I was single-handedly responsible for the downfall of Western civilization by making an 18% beer. We had a, in The Sun binge drinking, "Blame this man," with like a cut-out of my head in a bottle of Tokyo. That took a bit of a explaining to my very religious grandmother, but that's another story. (laughs) But everything we did with that beer was we just made a thousand bottles. It was very expensive. It was for connoisseurs. It was, it was for aficionados. And we want to elevate the status of beer, and I think the more someone can understand and appreciate something, the less likely they are to abuse it. And we make expensive products for people who love, love fantastic beer. So it was to kind of make a statement of you've got all these big companies doing very cheap alcohol that's likely to be abused, trying to ban products of this company that's looking to elevate the status, increase the education and awareness around beer, and lead people to appreciate and enjoy beer in a, a more elevated way.

   25. SBSteven Bartlett31:31

       And when you see yourself in The Sun with a cardboard cut-out-

   26. JWJames Watt31:33

       (laughs)

   27. SBSteven Bartlett31:33

       ... of your face-

   28. JWJames Watt31:34

       Mm-hmm.

   29. SBSteven Bartlett31:35

       ... is that kind of swings and roundabouts. Is that good for, from a marketing perspective? Is that a good outcome? Because you were trying to get a headline.

   30. JWJames Watt31:43

       Yeah.
6. 38:59 – 44:09

   Adjustments from being a fisherman to CEO of a global company

   1. SBSteven Bartlett38:59

      of a boat to being the captain of BrewDog, quite literally, that is your job title at BrewDog, um, what adjustment was needed? 'Cause on a boat, when you're up all night and there's men there, and you know, you've got to s- scree- was it, was the... Give me a snapshot of what the crew are like on a boat, a troller?

   2. JWJames Watt39:21

      (laughs) So, a lot of my best friends to this day are the guys that I worked with on the-

   3. SBSteven Bartlett39:26

      Right.

   4. JWJames Watt39:26

      ... on the fishing boats. But these are an unusual and interesting set of characters as well. It takes a certain type of person to kind of do that type of, do that type of work, and do that type of work on an ongoing basis. And I mean, they're, they're hardworking, like to have, like to have fun, like to mess about a little bit.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett39:47

      Mm-hmm.

   6. JWJames Watt39:47

      But all, all about the, kind of all about the hard work. And especially when things get difficult, like, seeing a good crew in a fishing boat come together and work hard to get them kind of through a tough time together was kind of really inspiring when it came to, like, business and leadership kind of later down the line.

   7. SBSteven Bartlett40:02

      I can see you being a very good captain on a boat. You, you, and just generally, you're, in a couple of moments, you know, I didn't know you before you'd walked in the door, but in the couple of moments that I've been with you, you're very focused, and you're someone that-

   8. JWJames Watt40:15

      Yeah.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett40:15

      ... I feel like, and I don't know you, but-

   10. JWJames Watt40:17

       Yeah.

   11. SBSteven Bartlett40:18

       ... you feel very resilient. And then you add that to the fact that this is your business, and you said before, I think you said it in your book, that no one will ever love the business like you do.

   12. JWJames Watt40:28

       No.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett40:30

       Y- you being so hardworking, so out of balance in your own life, as you've described, how do you not then have that expectation on others? 'Cause this is something that I honestly, I struggled with. I struggled with, especially in the early years of my business, was understanding that I was a bit fucked up.

   14. JWJames Watt40:46

       (laughs)

   15. SBSteven Bartlett40:46

       (laughs) Do you know what I mean? And that, in fact, everyone else was normal, and that I needed to understand. It goes back to me saying about the dark side and the cost of my childhood and the insecurities, I was a bit fucked up. So how did, how do you contend with that?

   16. JWJames Watt40:59

       For the first 10 years of the business, I would say I contended with that very, very badly. So, there's like a lot of intensity, there's a lot of drive, there's a lot of determination, there's a lot of passion there. And understanding how to lead people, how to take people with me on that journey has definitely evolved over time. And I'm now CEO of a business that's got 3,000 people. Before that, I maybe managed a handful of people in a fishing boat, but that is it. So to go from, like, no experience in being a CEO, no experience as being a leader, to managing 3,000 people at this speed and adding this ma- like, this year, well, last e- 18 months cumulatively, we're going to add a thousand people to the team. So it's like a thousand amazing, well-paying jobs in a recession, which our country, which our economy needs, so we're expanding all the time. But just how steep that learning curve is to go from not managing anyone to managing 3,000 people with all the kind of stresses and strains of growing a business. And I think if I look back and reflect a little bit, we've definitely had challenges and well-documented challenges along the way. And... we've had periods of such intense growth that we maybe haven't focused enough on our people and our culture during that period, and as a leader, I've always just been so focused on building something, on delivering an exceptional value to our customer, and making sure every time someone opens one of our beers or visits one of our bars, their experience is amazing. And knowing that if someone is choosing to spend their money with us, they're making a choice to do that versus one of our competitors, therefore we need to set the bar incredibly high and push incredibly hard. And as a leader, because of that drive, because of that determination, because of that focus, I've definitely pushed some of the team members too far in the past, and I think that's been, that's been well-documented. But that's came from a place of doing this because we want to build something amazing, and it took a bit of time to understand that, okay, they're, as amazing as their team are, they don't have the same level of investment in the business as, as I do.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett42:54

       Right, so-

   18. JWJames Watt42:54

       Some of them want to push it that hard, some of them just don't. And for a while there was just like, "I'm going to run through this wall and I want everyone else to run through the wall as well." Not everyone's going to run through that wall. And again, a, a, a big lesson, and I've kind of reflected a lot on leadership in the last 12 months is, to take people with you, you've got to make them understand the why behind what you're doing. And my kind of first decade of a leader is like, "We're doing this. This is what we're going to do. Let's go." And what I've kind of found more recently is like if people understand, "Okay, we're doing this, but this is why. This is what it means for you. This is what it means for the business. This is why it's a fantastic thing. This is why it's going to help us achieve objectives where everyone's going to win together," it's much easier to take people with you on that journey, whereas in the first 10 years, I was just like, "Go."

   19. SBSteven Bartlett43:38

       Interesting. That's such an important lesson.

   20. JWJames Watt43:41

       Mm-hmm.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett43:42

       Because, uh, you know, in the example you gave there, on, in one hand, you were like dragging people, and all studies show across a- all industries that when people don't go voluntarily, it's, it's burnout, it's pressure, it's stress, it's, you know... And then when, what you've said there is leadership is in fact inspiring them to come with you.

   22. JWJames Watt43:58

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett43:58

       And when it's voluntary, in terms of they know why they're going and they want to go, then all the psychological implications across multiple studies that I've read about are significantly

7. 44:09 – 49:31

   Your leadership evolution

   1. SBSteven Bartlett44:09

      improved.

   2. JWJames Watt44:09

      Mm-hmm.

   3. SBSteven Bartlett44:09

      You said you've been on a leadership evolution.

   4. JWJames Watt44:11

      I have.

   5. SBSteven Bartlett44:12

      So speaking honestly, what has that evolution been from when you started as a leader and the business i- starts to explode to the, the person that sits here in front of me today? What have you had to work on and remove?

   6. JWJames Watt44:22

      So it absolutely still is a journey, and I absolutely believe that I can get better as a leader, and I think one of the most important things that I've done in the last 12 months, we appointed a amazing, um, independent non-exec chairman in Alan Leighton, who's run some fantastic businesses, so much experience, so having someone there who's like a mentor to me. 'Cause like if I hang out with my buddies, they want to speak about football and golf and (laughs) -

   7. SBSteven Bartlett44:43

      Yes.

   8. JWJames Watt44:43

      ... that kind of stuff. They don't want, "Hey, I've got this kind of leadership challenge." It's like they, they don't care.

   9. SBSteven Bartlett44:47

      Hm.

   10. JWJames Watt44:47

       Which is, which is amazing, but then being a CEO is a very, very lonely job at times. Ins- like incredibly lonely, and there's another quote that I love, um, from Ben Horowitz, the author of one of my favorite business books, and it's like, "The first rule of CEO psychological meltdown is not to speak about CEO psychological meltdown." So I think people don't realize like being a CEO is fantastic, but it's lonely, it's, it's intense, it's, it's difficult. So having Alan's kind of help and guidance through that journey I think is really important, and I would say in the early years of the business, I managed it like a captain would manage a small team in a fishing boat. Whereas now, I'm looking to evolve my leadership style into a CEO of a kind of medium to large company, which is a bit less intense, which is maybe a bit less demanding, but which is more about taking our people with us on this journey. So here, here's the, "We're going to do this, and it might be tough, but this is what it means for us as a business. This is why we're doing it," but then also making sure the incentives are very much aligned, making sure that, okay, we want to create a business model where we win together as a company, which I think is really powerful, and we've always wanted to build a radically different type of business, a business that rejected how things were done and what big business was as usual, and that's been key. And I think if you look at, we're community owned, we're the world's first carbon negative beer business, and the new things that we've launched with our people that makes us a fundamentally and radically different business. So we've recently launched The Blueprint-

   11. SBSteven Bartlett46:11

       Mm.

   12. JWJames Watt46:11

       ... which is, I think, the biggest, most important announcement in the history of our business. So firstly, I decided to give almost £100 million of my own equity in the business to the team. So it's over the next four years, but that means each salaried team member receives £120,000 worth of equity, and that's in the valuation today, so if we double in size, then that could be significantly more. And that's about recognizing like, "We are all in this together. We want to win together. We want to work hard to win together," and it's about incentivizing our team to act like business owners, but rewarding them like business owners. The second part of that was we wanted to create a n- completely new model for how a hospitality business works. So we've got over 100 amazing hospitality venues all over the planet. Each of our bars now share 50% of their profits with the team that work there.

   13. SBSteven Bartlett46:58

       Mm-hmm.

   14. JWJames Watt46:58

       So it's a whole new model where if you visit one of our bars in Tokyo, in Berlin, in Cleveland, in Australia, you know that, okay, half of the profit that this bar makes-

   15. SBSteven Bartlett47:10

       Mm-hmm.

   16. JWJames Watt47:10

       ... is shared with our amazing people that put this experience together. So we want to kind of elevate the standard of hospitality, elevate the standards of kind of careers within hospitality. We've always been a real living wage employer, which has been very important for us, but sharing 50% of the profits with our team I think helps us attract and retain fantastic people, I think it's something that's going to resonate with our customers, and I think it's something that's gonna help us elevate the hospitality experience for consumers, and consumers are ultimately the thing which drives our business.

   17. SBSteven Bartlett47:38

       That's the thing. Uh, you know, we s- the first point was like inspiring people to come with you as opposed to dragging them.

   18. JWJames Watt47:43

       Mm-hmm.

   19. SBSteven Bartlett47:44

       Which again, many CEOs, many leaders-

   20. JWJames Watt47:46

       Yeah.

   21. SBSteven Bartlett47:46

       ... fall into the trap of doing that because we are so blinded by our own mission that we forget to communicate, uh, uh, it and bring other people along. But the second thing you touched on there is, um, if, you know, we s- sometimes CEOs sit here, and I've probably been guilty of this. You've said you've been guil- guilty of this, is like looking at, you know, the team that you've built and, and maybe questioning at times why they're not-... moving with the same energy that you are, but they're not incentivized to. They're not gonna be a hundred millionaire-

   22. JWJames Watt48:12

       Yeah.

   23. SBSteven Bartlett48:12

       ... gazillionaire if this all works out. They are getting their, their, their remuneration regardless of outcome. So the second piece that I've garnered from that, of leadership, is also to align incentives. And if you want someone to act like an owner, you have, you have to make them an owner. Which it seems like common sense, but it's not so common.

   24. JWJames Watt48:29

       It's, it's not so common. It took us a while to get there, but that is exactly it. Like, we've got reasonably high expectations of, of our team. We, we like to push hard. We're in a industry dominated by companies much bigger than, than our, so we need to be on our A game. We need to push things as a business, but we need to recognize the hard work that hundreds and thousands of people put into our business every single day. They're the people that make the beer, that deliver the beer-

   25. SBSteven Bartlett48:53

       Mm-hmm.

   26. JWJames Watt48:53

       ... that make the magic happen for the customer, and I want their incentives to be as aligned as my own, and I want them to feel as much ownership as I do, and I want them to share intrinsically in the success of the business. But hopefully by doing this, we can create a new business model that in a few years time I can then sit down with other CEOs and, "Okay, like, we've invested in our people this way, but we've become a better business because, because of it," and then do other businesses then decide to do the same thing? Is it maybe normal in five years time for every hospitality business to share 50% of their profits with the people that work in their site? And if that happens, then we haven't only made the lives better for the people that work in our business, but we've managed to fundamentally change our industry, which would be really

8. 49:31 – 52:47

   Why don't you step down as CEO?

   1. JWJames Watt49:31

      cool.

   2. SBSteven Bartlett49:31

      A lot of successful businesses in the country ... I'm thinking of the Ben Frances-

   3. JWJames Watt49:34

      Yep.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett49:34

      ... I'm thinking of the Huels.

   5. JWJames Watt49:35

      Yeah.

   6. SBSteven Bartlett49:35

      Hashtag ad, just in case the ASA come for me. Um, uh, a lot of b- business owners that have gone through extremely high growth-

   7. JWJames Watt49:42

      Yeah.

   8. SBSteven Bartlett49:42

      ... and I've sat here with those CEOs of those companies-

   9. JWJames Watt49:44

      Mm-hmm.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett49:45

       ... they get out of the way.

   11. JWJames Watt49:46

       Yeah.

   12. SBSteven Bartlett49:46

       They realize, especially in your case, because this was your first shot at business, right?

   13. JWJames Watt49:49

       This is my first shot, yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett49:50

       So you're gonna fuck up, like in many (laughs) cases.

   15. JWJames Watt49:52

       (laughs) Many, many, many times, yeah. Yeah.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett49:54

       You know, I've fucked up a lot as well, uh, hugely.

   17. JWJames Watt49:56

       Yeah.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett49:56

       Over and over again, and still today. Um, but they get out of the way. So Ben Francis stepped down at, a, a CEO when there was 30 people-

   19. JWJames Watt50:03

       Yeah.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett50:03

       ... th- the founder of Huel, Julian, stepped out of th- the CEO role and put someone in. Did that ever cross your mind? And why didn't you do that sooner? If you, if you knew that you didn't, you had ... 'Cause learning on the job when you got-

   21. JWJames Watt50:13

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett50:13

       ... 2,000 people is a-

   23. JWJames Watt50:14

       High risk.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett50:14

       (laughs)

   25. JWJames Watt50:16

       (laughs) It, it's a high risk thing. So I'm very passionate about being CEO, and it's something that I want to continue doing for the foreseeable future, and-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett50:22

       Why?

   27. JWJames Watt50:24

       Because I think we are only just starting. So a question that I get asked a lot when I speak to media is like, "How do you feel about what you've done, what you've built, what you've achieved so far?" And I wouldn't say the feeling is quite as numb as indifference, but it's, it's close to that. And-

   28. SBSteven Bartlett50:42

       Really?

   29. JWJames Watt50:42

       Yeah. And for me, what is exciting is, where can we take this from here? So we want to build one of the world's best beer companies. We want to build one of the world's best companies overall. I look at companies like Whole Foods, or Tesla, or Google, or Amazon, or Starbucks. I mean, that is the scale of the ambition. We want to do what they've done in their industry for beer. So what I'm insanely excited about is, okay, we've given ourselves a platform. We've now got over 3,000 staff. We now make beer in four continents. We've now got over 100 locations. We've got significant sales momentum. Where can we take this from here? And I think what we've done so far gives us an opportunity to do something meaningful, to do something impactful, to do something that enriches the lives of our customers, to do something that helps us save the planet and fly the flag for sustainability, something that helps us look after our team members even better, but helps us have a huge impact. And what I'm very excited about is, okay, what can we do as a team, as a company, as a collective, as a community over the next five to 10 years? That's what I'm focused on. That's why I get out of bed in the morning, and that's what I'm really excited to continue doing with the fantastic management team and team that we've got in the business.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett51:51

       I was startled when you said indifference. You, you, you genuinely ... The way that you feel about what you've achieved so far is quite close to indifference, kind of just numb or like just, "Meh." Honestly.
9. 52:47 – 58:34

   Did you ever imagine you’d be here?

   1. JWJames Watt52:47

   2. SBSteven Bartlett52:47

      So in 2007, if I'd gone ... when you were doing, you know, you'd taken that 20K loan from the bank-

   3. JWJames Watt52:52

      Yeah.

   4. SBSteven Bartlett52:52

      ... and I'd gone and seen you in Dicky and I said, "Listen, couple of years time you're gonna be the 16th largest brewery in the world, and you're gonna have thousands of staff all around the world in 111 locations or whatever it is. You're gonna be opening a thing in Vegas." You would've ... And I said, "How do you think you're gonna feel on that day?" What would you have said to me?

   5. JWJames Watt53:10

      Well, I think there's, there's two answers to that question. So one answer is the answer that I would usually give to media, which is like, "If you go back to 2007 and now you've built this, could you have envisaged it? Could you have imagined it?" And the answer that you've kinda got to give to the media, 'cause anything else sounds too self-assured-

   6. SBSteven Bartlett53:28

      Mm-hmm.

   7. JWJames Watt53:28

      "No, I could never have imagined it."

   8. SBSteven Bartlett53:30

      Mm-hmm.

   9. JWJames Watt53:30

      "It's been amazing." But the answer that I don't usually share is, "Of course I imagined it, 'cause if me and Martin didn't imagine it, how can we build it? How can we make it a real thing if it wasn't something we were kinda planning to do or planning to, planning to build?" So I think if you went back and asked me that question there, I would've been very excited about the journey and the joy of building something.

   10. SBSteven Bartlett53:51

       But you ... If I said, "How would you feel today?"

   11. JWJames Watt53:53

       How would I-

   12. SBSteven Bartlett53:54

       So, uh, in two thou- I'm speaking to-

   13. JWJames Watt53:55

       Yeah.

   14. SBSteven Bartlett53:55

       ... 2007, uh, James in, in Dicky.

   15. JWJames Watt53:58

       Okay.

   16. SBSteven Bartlett53:59

       And I'm saying, "By the way-"

   17. JWJames Watt54:00

       Mm-hmm.

   18. SBSteven Bartlett54:00

       "... look at this. This is what, where you get to in-"

   19. JWJames Watt54:02

       Yep.

   20. SBSteven Bartlett54:02

       "... 2022."

   21. JWJames Watt54:03

       Yeah.

   22. SBSteven Bartlett54:03

       You would, you would as- I'm guessing you would assume that on that day in 2022, you would be-

   23. JWJames Watt54:08

       Yeah.

   24. SBSteven Bartlett54:08

       ... really content.

   25. JWJames Watt54:09

       Yes. You-

   26. SBSteven Bartlett54:09

       But you're clearly not (laughs) .

   27. JWJames Watt54:11

       (laughs) .

   28. SBSteven Bartlett54:11

       You're not content, are you? 'Cause you're-

   29. JWJames Watt54:12

       No.

   30. SBSteven Bartlett54:12

       ... saying that ... Yeah, you're saying you're-
10. 58:34 – 1:04:21

    Forgiving your mother for creating 'that voice'

    1. SBSteven Bartlett58:34

       head?

    2. JWJames Watt58:38

       I think a combination of early childhood, potentially partly parents, despite being well-intentioned. Um, there was a story from my childhood where I've been obsessed with sharks my entire life, so my favorite hobby is to go diving with sharks. It's like I'm happiest when I'm under the water with sharks. I recently went to Guadalupe Island off the coast of Mexico, dived with some great white sharks. Like, being under the water with sharks is, is my happy place. And when I was a kid, I would always tell people, when they asked me what I wanted to be, "I want to be a marine biologist. I want to study sharks." And when I was, uh, eight or nine years old, my parents told me to go and get my shark book. I was like, "Wow, okay, they're finally interested in something that I love." So pajamas on just before bedtime, went to my bedroom, come through with a shark book. Mother opened up the shark book and, uh, went through the four authors in the shark book and was like, "James, look. This person, PhD. This person, PhD. This person, PhD. They've all got PhDs. It's just not something you're gonna be able to do, so you need to stop telling people you want to be a marine biologist. You need to stop telling people you're gonna study sharks, 'cause you just won't manage to get a PhD, so you need to think of something else." And I just remember not saying anything, taking my shark book and just like walking back to my bedroom in, in tears and like, "Okay, no more, no more sharks, James."

    3. SBSteven Bartlett59:49

       Have you ever forgiven your mother for the way that she was?

    4. JWJames Watt59:54

       Hmm. Don't think so.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett59:57

       You don't?

    6. JWJames Watt1:00:01

       But I think there was a lot of incidents like that, that that's where that voice comes from. And I mean, the, the voice, the voice is very much a part of me, um, and I think it's helped me push, maybe push too hard at times, it's helped me do some fantastic things. And, but I mean, it's, it's, it's always there and after that big deal, it was like, "Okay, you've done that, but now unless you can do this," then that voice starts up again.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:23

       Yeah. I, I just, I, I worry about that a little bit.

    8. JWJames Watt1:00:26

       (laughs)

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:26

       Because, um, yeah. Why don't you think you've forgiven her?

    10. JWJames Watt1:00:35

        Uh, there was a lot of other things that happened subsequently.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:38

        Mm-hmm.

    12. JWJames Watt1:00:39

        Um, ended up in a-... a messy court case with my father, and I just didn't want anything to do with it. I was like, "Th- this is your thing. Sometimes people don't get on. Fine, just sort it out. It's, it's, it's not my thing."

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:00:52

        Mm-hmm.

    14. JWJames Watt1:00:52

        And she called me as a witness in the court case, which meant I had to sit there for five days in the Court of Session in Edinburgh. And this was when I was studying law in the Court of Session (laughs) with some of the students I was studying with, watching the case. And I was, like, sitting there waiting to be called, and I don't think she'd ever had any intention of calling me. And somehow she just wanted to subject me to the pantomime that was playing out, that I didn't want any part of. And I was forced to sit there and watch it, which was, which was tough.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:15

        When people talk about forgiveness, they, they always say that it's a process of, like, letting-

    16. JWJames Watt1:01:19

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:19

        ... a prisoner go and realizing you were the prisoner the whole time.

    18. JWJames Watt1:01:21

        Mm-hmm.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:22

        Um, and then another question. You know what I mean? Uh, well, I was gonna ask, are you... Do you think you've healed from it? But you've just said that you still have that voice today.

    20. JWJames Watt1:01:32

        Yeah, but on some level, maybe I want that voice.

    21. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:36

        Interesting.

    22. JWJames Watt1:01:37

        So maybe it's like, well, if you lose that voice, are you going to be able to do these things? Is the voice the thing that (laughs) makes you ab- able to build a business with your best friend from scratch to what we've built today?

    23. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:51

        But isn't that what the voice would say? Because the voice w-

    24. JWJames Watt1:01:54

        That is, that is what the voice would say.

    25. SBSteven Bartlett1:01:55

        The voice values validation. It's s- it's desperately seeking validation, so of course the voice would say, "What if you lose me?"

    26. JWJames Watt1:02:00

        Mm-hmm.

    27. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:00

        "Then you'll lose, then you won't be validated anymore."

    28. JWJames Watt1:02:02

        Mm-hmm.

    29. SBSteven Bartlett1:02:02

        And validation is so important to us. This is a really interesting topic that I... Th- this was the last chapter in my book and I actually didn't know... I knew what I wanted-

    30. JWJames Watt1:02:10

        Mm-hmm.
11. 1:04:21 – 1:15:57

    Punks with purpose letter

    1. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:21

       (paper crinkles) So one of the things you announced, which you talked about earlier-

    2. JWJames Watt1:04:24

       Mm-hmm.

    3. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:24

       ... is this, this new manifesto for-

    4. JWJames Watt1:04:25

       Yeah.

    5. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:26

       ... your business, called the Blue... the BrewDog Blueprint: Creating the Business of Tomorrow. And this is kind of the late-stage vision for a, a, a much more sustainable company.

    6. JWJames Watt1:04:34

       Yes.

    7. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:35

       When I say sustainable, I'm talking not about carbon emissions. I'm talking about a company where your team and your, your mission can be achieved in a sustainable, holistically sustainable way. You've had a lot of controversy over the last two years.

    8. JWJames Watt1:04:47

       I don't just think over the last two years. I think controversy has followed us almost every year since 2008.

    9. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:53

       And much of that you've actually welcomed. You've, you've tried to get controversy.

    10. JWJames Watt1:04:56

        Yeah.

    11. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:56

        It's been central to your marketing strategy.

    12. JWJames Watt1:04:58

        Yeah.

    13. SBSteven Bartlett1:04:58

        And it's, but it's actually, from my estimation, especially in those early years, served you tremendously well, because it... This made the, the marketing dollar work a lot harder.

    14. JWJames Watt1:05:05

        Yeah.

    15. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:06

        Um, the controversy in more recent years starts with this Punks With Purpose letter that was written-

    16. JWJames Watt1:05:11

        Mm-hmm.

    17. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:11

        ... 300 of your ex-employees-

    18. JWJames Watt1:05:13

        Yeah.

    19. SBSteven Bartlett1:05:13

        ... and some of your current employees at the time. In, I think, in 2020 or 2021?

Episode duration: 1:49:31