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Charlamagne tha God: Honesty broke his depression spiral

Radio host traces molestation, a drug-dealing father, and four firings into anxiety: an ayahuasca retreat distilled one rule, get honest or die lying.

Charlamagne tha GodguestSteven Bartletthost
May 27, 20241h 33mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

  1. 0:00 – 2:17

    Intro

    1. CG

      I didn't realize it until I got older. (instrumental music plays) I was just a young kid, and I was molested. Oof. Shit. Please welcome Charlamagne Tha God. Co-host of the Breakfast Club.

    2. SB

      And America's most influential radio host.

    3. CG

      Growing up, my father was telling me, "If you don't change your lifestyle, you're gonna end up in jail, dead, or broke." The problem was, he wasn't practicing what he was preaching. When I started selling drugs, I found out he was selling drugs, and then he had an affair on my mom. So I became a player, because I felt I had to be like my pops. But then, I ended up getting in a situation where a shooting happened and then going to jail. But I was able to finally wake up. And I was smart enough to realize, whatever I want to be doing five years from now, I gotta start doing now.

    4. SB

      And then the microphone ultimately changed your life, but I didn't know that you'd had 12 years of rejection.

    5. CG

      I got fired four times. I just collected my last unemployment check. I was scared to death. But you can't live life with fear. You gotta live life with faith. Next gig I got was the Breakfast Club. Fast-forward three, four years, I'm having more success than I've ever had in my life. But I just was not happy. I was losing myself. And, um, those suicidal thoughts just cross your mind for no reason, you know? And even, even now. What, what am I still doing here? Man.

    6. SB

      We've just hit six million subscribers on the Diary of a CEO. Um, so me and my team would like to do something we've never done before as a little thank you, and we're calling it the Diary of a CEO Subscriber Raffle, and here is how it works. Every episode this month, we're going to pick three current subscribers at random, and we'll send one of you a 1,000 pound voucher, one of you tickets to come and watch the Diary of a CEO behind the scenes live with our team, and one of you will have a 10-minute phone call with me to discuss whatever you want to talk about. If you're a subscriber, you're in the raffle. Thank you from the bottom of my heart for allowing me to do something that me and my team love doing so much. It is the greatest honor of my lifetime, and I hope it, I hope it continues, uh, off into the future. Let's get to the episode. (instrumental music plays)

  2. 2:17 – 4:09

    "Get Honest Or Die Trying"

    1. SB

      Get Honest or Die Lying. Why did you choose those words? Why did you choose that title?

    2. CG

      Um, it's a play, it's a play on 50 Cent's Get Rich or Die Tryin'. You know, um, I'm always gonna have, you know, some, some, some ode to hip hop, you know, somewhere. Like, my last book was, was Shook One, you know, that was paying homage to Mobb Deep. But also, um, you know, just talking about how I felt my whole life when I would get in, get panic attacks, get anxiety attacks. And Get Honest or Die Lying, that's, you know, not just a play on 50 Cent's title. That's how I truly feel. It's like, yo, if you don't get honest with yourself, you're gonna die lying. Like, you know, I had a, um ... I, I went to a spiritual retreat, you know, back in February, me and my wife, and like, that's one of the things that came up for me, you know, that, that, that weekend at the retreat there, one of the things that came up for me was, stop lying to yourself, and stop volunteering those lies to others. And I think a lot of us do that, you know, a lot. Like, we, we lie to ourselves, and then we just volunteer those lies to other people, like nobody even asked us, (laughs) you know? When I think, I think social media, you know, uh, contributes to a lot of that, because every day, you feel like you have to, you know, feed this beast. And like, you know, you might go look at your feed, and at some point you gotta ask yourself, "Who is this person?" You know? Or just the, just the things that you, you know, say to people, you know, in your life as you're, as you're, as you're just, you know, growing, and, and, and evolving, just as a human. You might just volunteer lies, you know, for security purposes, or to mask, to mask insecurities, or, you know, to mask fears. And so it's just like, yo, if you don't start getting honest with yourself, you're gonna, you're gonna die, die a liar.

  3. 4:09 – 8:56

    What Made Charlamagne?

    1. CG

    2. SB

      The truth and the lies start young for all of us.

    3. CG

      Absolutely.

    4. SB

      Especially if you look at the stats for Black men-

    5. CG

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      ... because, um, they are much less likely to get to the point where they can get honest with themselves in th- their whole selves, their mental health, everything. When I read through your story, I met an individual that I never knew before. I've watched the Breakfast Club for years and years and years. I've probably watched it for a decade, I think, something, something like that. It's-

    7. CG

      Mm-hmm.

    8. SB

      It's always been my connection with US culture, has been watching that show. And I watched a guy that was a bit of an antagonist to the guests coming on, but I never knew all of the other stuff. And you're one of the only Black men that I encountered, especially in the United States that has a big sort of public figure, who has been so unbelievably honest about what it is to be a complete man, and the complete human experience, and your complete experience, that starts very young. If I am trying to understand the man that sits before me right now, where do I have to start to truly understand?

    9. CG

      Oh, you gotta, you definitely gotta start from the beginning. You know, you gotta start from that single-wide trailer, you know, in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. You know, growing up as, as, as a young man, you know, to a, a, a great, great father and a great mother. I, I say great, you know, now in regards to my father, because I understand him as a man. You know, there was a period in my life, you know, especially when I first started going to therapy, I didn't know if I even liked him as a person, you know, because, you know, you gotta question yourself. You question things that he did to you growing up. You know, just, uh, I always said my dad raised me out of fear and not love. But d- the fear was just from the standpoint of he didn't want me to, you know, make the same mistakes that he did. I mean, he didn't wanna see me make the same mistakes that he saw a lot of people in our town making. Like, you know, the one thing that he used to always instill in me was like, "If you don't change your lifestyle, you're gonna end up in jail, dead, or broke sitting under the tree." And I think that's what happens with kids a lot, right? Like, kids, y- you, they end up mirroring......you know, the parent. And I think sometimes when you see yourself, you know, in your child, if you made a lot of mistakes and, you know, you bumped your head a lot of times, man, that'll probably terrify you to see your child going down that- that same path. So for me, my journey would definitely have to start, um, in Moncks Corner, South Carolina, in that- in that single-wide trailer on that dirt road.

    10. SB

      You grew up in a- a single trailer in a- a dirt road with a father that seemed to be pretty absent from what it says in your book. You- you talked about him raising you there, but it sounded like he very much also didn't raise you.

    11. CG

      No, he was absent in the sense of he had his own issues that he was dealing with, you know? And I didn't find that out until, you know, 2018 when I put out my second book, Shook One: Anxiety Playing Tricks On Me, where I really opened up about a lot of my anxiety and a lot of my depression and going to therapy. I- I never forget it. It was Thanksgiving, um, it was the week of Thanksgiving 2018. And, uh, I had a younger cousin, he was like 24, 25 years old, and he tried to complete suicide four different times. And on the fourth time, he- he completed it. And it was the week that he completed it. And then on that, on top of the fact my father had just read my second book, he said to me, um, he called me and he said, you know, he- he talked about my cousin and he talked about my book and he said, "Man, I- I was going to therapy two and three times a week, and I tried to kill myself, you know, 30-plus years ago. And you know, I was on 10 to 12 different medications for my mental health." So when he said that, to me, I already knew that he had the substance abuse, I knew he dealt with the substance abuse issues, right? But I- I knew that, but I didn't know the other aspect of it. So when I realized that, I'm like, "Oh, I get it." 'Cause my dad was absolutely, you know, there when he was, you know, sober for the most part, or when he wasn't dealing with his own issues. But when, like I said, the- the- the- the way he raised me was out of- was out of, uh, fear, you know, more than love. But he definitely, you know, had his foot up my ass, like on (laughs) , you know, in a- in a real way, just because he didn't wanna- want me to make those, um, those same mistakes. But, you know, I always felt like, um, growing up, we didn't have the- the kind of relationship I wanted to have, that I would think a father and son would have. But that's only because he was dealing with his own issues. And then he started, you know, having a- a- a an affair on my mom, so he really wasn't in the house then. Like, he was, you know, off- off with his- his new family.

    12. SB

      H- what age were you?

    13. CG

      It had to be like '90, '98, so maybe I was 19, 20? I prob- might have been like 19, 20 when he- when he, like, left the house,

  4. 8:56 – 12:11

    Charlamagne's Father's Impact On His Relationships

    1. CG

      I think?

    2. SB

      I- I think and we model our sort of earliest relationships, we model our idea of relationships based on the relationship we first see with our parents. I think about my own. My mom's Nigerian, my dad's English, a household that was very loud, to say the least.

    3. CG

      Mm-hmm.

    4. SB

      And I always thought my dad was in prison, so growing up I never had a relationship 'cause I thought women were like... I thought it was prison. And it was only until I got to about 30 years old that I had a real relationship with him. Now, I've had to go to therapy with my partner over and over again to get out of, like, being triggered by this idea. Like, whenever we have conflict I'm like, "Run." 'Cause I always wanted my father to run from my mom.

    5. CG

      Mm.

    6. SB

      So same- same like up... I had that deep in me that relationships were prison, and when I read through your story and looked at your father and, you know, his infidelity with- with your mother, uh, I was wondering how that impacted your future perspective of what a relationship is?

    7. CG

      Oh, it had me- it had me bad for a while, 'cause you know, I've always been the type of person... I like being with one- one partner, you know what I'm saying? I like being with one woman. Like, that's something that I always thought was really cool growing up. Probably because a lot of the images that we saw, especially on TV back then, it was always the nuclear household. It was alway- like, the- the mother and the father, whether it was, you know, The Cosby Show or whether it was Martin and Gina, you know? Whether it was, you know, the Winslows on Family Matters. Like, you know, whether it was the- the- the Evans on Good Times before James died. Whether it was The Jeffersons. Like, you always saw, you know, a Black man, you know, with a- with a- with a Black woman, and they had a family. Like, that was what I always... That's what I thought the American dream, you know, consisted of. So, that was, like, always something in my mind that I wanted. And then, uh, I remember when I found out my pops was cheating on my mom and I remember just confronting him about it and just asking him. I never forget it. He was in my r- um, in my room in my mom's house, and I used to have like this- one of those exercise bikes in the room. And he was riding. He was on... He- he wasn't working out, but he- he came in to get on the exercise bike 'cause I needed to talk to him. And I brought it up to him, and I remember him just saying to me, like, "Yo. So- so, you only got one woman, huh?" Looked at me right in the eyes (laughs) and that's what he said. He was like, "You only got one woman, huh?" And I was like, "What do you mean I only got one woman?" He was like, "Huh." You know? He's like, "When you get older, you'll understand." Like, literally. So, planting that in my head just made me feel like, "Am I doing something wrong? Am I supposed to have, you know, one woman?" So I spent, like, a large majority of my life trying to sh- trying to show him that I was, like, a player. I was like, I was like my pops. I was like, you know, I was... I- I- I had- I had- I had a- I had a roster too, right? Only for him to come all the way back around to tell me I always had it right. (laughs) Literally to only come back and tell me, you know, one of the worst mistakes he ever made, you know, was- was- was- was leaving- leaving my mom, or- or causing my mom to leave him. Howev- which way it went. And I- I remember him saying that to me, and he just was like, "Man, you know, you- you- you've always had it right." But that just kind of... That shows you, right? Just because somebody is older than you, you know, doesn't mean that they're- they're right. Doesn't mean that they're always correct. Like, we're always growing, we're always evolving if we allow ourselves to. And you know, we're gonna figure out later on in life that yeah, we did make a mistake, you know, doing whatever it is that we were doing. And we should be able to admit that no matter the age and correct it no matter the age.

  5. 12:11 – 16:28

    Charlamagne's Sexual Abuse

    1. SB

      ... eight years old, your cousin's ex-wife had a sexual encounter with you.

    2. CG

      Mm-hmm.

    3. SB

      And you talk about these sexual encounters changing your personality thereafter. When did you decide to speak about this and, and when did you s- begin to learn the implications that that one instant, sort of incident when you were that age had had on you throughout your life?

    4. CG

      Well, I used to always make jokes about it, right? 'Cause I, you know, I used to always say, um, you know... I w- I, I s- I used to always say that... I, I used to buy these... They used to be like, these little firecrackers that were like these little poppers.

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CG

      So you could throw 'em on the ground and they would pop. And so it's like, one day I just started throwing 'em at her 'cause I ain't want her to touch me. And, um, when, when I did that, she started (laughs) calling me ugly, like literally from that moment. Like, "Oh, you ugly. You got a big nose." You know, she'd be telling everybody, "Look at his no- I think his nose is swollen." So like, to the point where my grandma, god bless the dead, would like, take c- cream and put it on my nose to try to reduce the swelling. But it wasn't swollen. She was just messing with me. So in my mind, it was like a psychological thing, like she was, she was, she was messing with me mentally.

    7. SB

      And how old was she?

    8. CG

      I don't know, you know?

    9. SB

      She was 30, 40, 50?

    10. CG

      Oh yeah, she was definitely older. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

    11. SB

      And you were eight?

    12. CG

      I was eight. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, um, I remember hers... I remember her, uh... Me telling people the reason I made her stop is 'cause I didn't like the smell of her jheri curl. (laughs) So that was always (laughs) ... That was always the joke. And I remember watching, uh, Tyler Perry on the Oprah Winfrey show. And I remember watching him cry over a older woman who molested him. And I remember thinking to myself, "What's wrong with him?" 'Cause the way we rationalized it in our mind, it... Like, when you young, you just used to talk about it like it was a sexual encounter. And it was... When I think about it now, like, I had like, me, and like, you know, three of my other younger friends, and all of us were talking about these sexual encounters we were having with older women. So i- now that I think back on it, I'm like, "Damn, we all was getting, you know, molested." You just don't look at it like that when you're a young man. When you look at it... When you're a young man, you look at it like, "I'm just getting action early." So when I saw, you know, Tyler on Oprah, that's when I first started, like, thinking about it. And I remember... This was... I forgot what year this was, but this was way, way, way back in the day. But I remember there, there was Twitter, and I remember tweeting about it, but I was tweeting about it in jest, like, you know, like wondering like, "What the hell's wrong with Tyler Perry," you know? But then I had to start asking, "Well, what's wrong with me that (laughs) like, I... that I'm not reacting to being molested the way that, you know, he is?" But then you don't even realize that it's molestation 'til you get older. At least I didn't realize it until I got older and I was like, "Oh, I was getting molested." And then when you start going to therapy and you start peeling back, you know, the layers of that, that, that trauma, you start realizing, "Oh, this is why I am the way I am in regards to pleasing people." Because I felt like even though what she was doing to me was wrong, and it made me uncomfortable, and I didn't like it, I had to keep doing it so she'd stop calling me ugly. 'Cause her calling me ugly was really, really, really hurting my feelings, you know what I mean? As a young eight-year-old kid.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. CG

      So that's, that leads to you being a older adult who's a constant people pleaser because you don't wanna let nobody down. Because you know if you let them down then they'll talk bad about you, you know? But that you realize you gotta set those boundaries 'cause if those people are gonna... If, if making... If you making yourself uncomfortable is the only way to please said individual, that individual don't need to be in your life. That's not somebody that you n- have, hav- have in your, your circle at all.

    15. SB

      U- you've never gone back and found out who that person was and done, uh, done anything about it?

    16. CG

      No, I see her.

    17. SB

      You, you still see her?

    18. CG

      Yeah, I've seen... I've seen her. I've seen her around in my hometown. Absolutely.

    19. SB

      You're not interested in...

    20. CG

      Nah, last time I saw her actually, she came up to me. This was about, mm, let me see. It's 2024, this probably had to be before COVID, you know? She came up to me at a, at in... at a house party and she was like, "Oh, you so handsome." And I was like, "You, you been thought I was handsome."

    21. SB

      (laughs)

    22. CG

      "Beat it. (laughs) Like, like, you been thought I was handsome. Like, knock it off."

  6. 16:28 – 22:16

    Charlamagne's Troubled Youth

    1. CG

      (laughs)

    2. SB

      Your, your behavior becomes problematic, 15 years old, 1993. Uh, I watched... I sort of read through from... you were 15 up until your sort of early 20s, up to s- sort of 23 years old, and there was, um, quite a shocking pattern of behavior involving drugs and other things. I, I was wondering j-

    3. CG

      Not that early. 15, I was still in... I was still in high school. So I was, I was, I was still... I was... The, the disciplinary problems from... started in middle school. It started when I was in like, seventh grade. And the disciplinary problems started just because, you know, my older cousins were like, what you would call, I guess, bullying me, right? Like, they would... I, I was wearing glasses and I had the fanny pack, and I was in like, what they had... They, they used to call it, uh... The classes were broken down in letters, so it was like A... A and C were for like, the smart students, right?

    4. SB

      Mm.

    5. CG

      So I was in like, the A class. And it was only like, two Black people in the class. Two or three Black people in the class, right? Rest is all white. And so like, I would be with a lot of white people for the most part. And like, uh, my cousins, who were all from m- my daddy's, uh, side of town, they would bully me. Like, literally. Like, they would just beat up on me 'cause I'd be with all the white kids. 'Cause my dad is like a, a... was a really cool dude, you know? Like, he was like a... The, the, the, the guy who always had like, the small little sugar shack where you come over there and get your alcohol and stuff like that. And you know, he'd... he used to hustle his, his, his drugs, stuff like that. People knew my pops. My pops was a cool dude. So they, they thought I was supposed to be like that. So being that I wasn't like that, they was like... they would bully me. And, um, it just became one of those things where it was like, "Yo, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em." So it's like, yo, w- my glasses fell off my face, you know, one too many times. And like, that one time where they fell and they just broke for good, b-That's when I broke for good. And I was just like, "You know what? If I can't beat them, join them." So, I-I just started hanging with them. And, like, in order to hang with them, I had to be, I guess, like, worse than them to prove myself in a lot of ways. So, that's when, like, the disruption really started in class. That's when the, the class clown, you know, really started to happen. And that just evolved into me getting left back a couple of times. You know, I think I, I went to summer school twice, in seventh and eighth grade. Then I got left back in ninth grade, and that's when I actually had to stay back. And then by the time I got to, by the time I got to 10th grade, um, I was getting kicked out of the school I was in, Berkeley High School. And they transferred me to, to Strafford High School, where my mom taught, 'cause they thought if I was at my mom's school, then I would act better. But m-most of my problems from that point on started to be in the street, more so than, you know, in school. And s- so I ended up getting, uh, in a situation where I was with, you know, some of my homeboys, and a shooting happened, and we all ended up going to jail. And they actually came and arrested me from Strafford High School. And that's the last time I was in, uh, a, a high school.

    6. SB

      And you sat in jail for three months?

    7. CG

      No. It was like 40, l- like, I think 45 days, something like that. Yeah.

    8. SB

      Your dad could have bailed you out?

    9. CG

      My dad could have bailed me out. Um, but he wanted to teach me a lesson. Like, he wanted me to learn from my mistakes. So, he, he let me sit in there for, for 45 days. Th- and, and sadly, that wasn't ... It, it, it was a wake-up call, but it wasn't the wake-wake-up call. It was more like I woke up, but then I hit the snooze button.

    10. SB

      (laughs)

    11. CG

      You know, slept for a little wh-, slept for a little while longer before I finally got up.

    12. SB

      As a grown man, you can look back now and think, "That 15, 16-year-old kid, he needed something that he wasn't getting. He needed a bunch of things he just wasn't getting." Because you've got kids now yourself, so you can ... You, if y- if you saw that behavior in your kid, you wouldn't say, oh, I-I, well, I don't know. I'm putting words in your mouth here. But you probably wouldn't think, "Okay, they need to go to jail and sit in jail for a while." You'd probably look at it and go, "There's something unmet there."

    13. CG

      Man, that's such an interesting question, because when I do think back on it, I say to myself, "I didn't have to do none of that." Like, that's my mindset now. Like, I didn't have to do any of that. Like, um, my mother was an English teacher. She was a Jehovah's Witness. My grandmother was a Baptist. They absolutely taught me better. Like, I absolutely, positively knew better. I had the example of my father, you know? If my father had been probably more honest with me about, um, his life, and you know, the things he had went through, and who, who, who, who he was, then I probably would have seen a lot of those obstacles coming. 'Cause I got to the point, even when I started selling drugs, when I found out he was also selling drugs, uh, you, you can't tell me not to do it. You know? Like, you, like, uh, you can't be on some, um, don't do as I do, do as I say type stuff. I remember us having that conversation. And he was like, "Well, this is my house, so you not gon' be doing that at my house." Like, 'cause, uh, you, you making me hot. Right?

    14. SB

      (laughs)

    15. CG

      Like, lit- like, literally. And so, I feel like, you know, for me, I was just a young, impressionable kid who wanted what every single human being wants, and that's just simply security. And if you don't get security, you know, from people, you will, you will find a way to get it. So, me, you know, becoming that, that version of myself I was then, well, that was just literally for security. That was for survival. Like, I was just literally a kid that was tired of getting bullied. But, you know, once you get down on that path, you know, if nobody stops you, there will be things that stop you. Like jail, you know? Or sadly, in some cases, death. But then it's too late. So, I just always thank God that, you know, even though I, I got caught up and I made those mistakes, I was able to, you know, finally, you know, wake up.

    16. SB

      I've sat with Busta Rhymes and, uh, Ashley Walters, and they talk a lot about their fathers. And

  7. 22:16 – 27:58

    Role Models For Men

    1. SB

      they also talk about the absence of male role models s- often for, for young black men, and how the, the impact of that. I've actually come to learn the impact of that by having these conversations over and over with black men that didn't have a, a male role model in their life that could stop them from going down that path. And I don't think it's talked about enough. 'C- 'cause I've learned about it from Busta Rhymes and from Ashley Walters from Top Boy, um, and it's really made me think that there's something we need to think more of in society, f- especially for people that, uh, have s- sort of single parents, or have an, uh, an absent father, or an emotionally absent father. I think we could save a lot of, um, downstream consequences with mental health, crime, and all of those things if we thought more about the importance of real male role models.

    2. CG

      Oh, yeah. I mean, uh, listen. I, I had, I had a, a, a, a re-, a male role model in my father. But the problem with my father was he wasn't practicing what he was preaching.

    3. SB

      Mm.

    4. CG

      So, you know, you have to be about actions. You can't just be about words and lip service. People have to see you, and, and, and see that you're, you know, a, a living, walking example of what it is that you're telling others. Like, you know, I didn't even believe that men could be faithful to their women until I started seeing it from people that I actually knew. Like, and, and, you know, y- it's, it's ... It's, it's, it's one thing for somebody to tell you they are. But like, let's just say, you know, you're, you're, you're out and about, uh, at a, at a television shoot, and you know, you're out of town, right? And you and this person, or these people, are hanging around after the shoot, and their wife is nowhere in sight, and they got every opportunity to do the wrong thing. But they're like, "Nah, I'm going back to my room." You know what I'm saying? "I, I love my, I'ma, I'ma g- I gotta get home to my wife." Like, or, "Nah." And then you are where you ... That's when you strike up conversations like, "Really?" Like, and then they're like, "Nah, I'm faithful." You know what I'm saying? Like, literally, like, those are the conversations. Like, "Nah, I'm faithful. I don't, I don't get down like that." And you're like, "Oh."All right? That's respectful. You know, so it's just like, actions speak way louder than words, man. And I, and the thing I love about the era that we're in now, you know, this is the first generation, we're the first generation of, of, of people that I feel like we have the luxury of healing. Our, the people before us, our parents, you know, I'm 45. My, my parents, they were just scratching and surviving. They were just trying to figure it out. They were just trying to, trying to make it. They were trying to keep some food on the table and a roof over their head. We are the first generation that has the luxury of actually healing. And I think that's a beautiful thing.

    5. SB

      So true. There's a lot of, uh, role models emerging now on the internet. You know, if you think about like the Andrew Tates of the world and all of those conversations. And at the same time, what it is to be a man has become quite unclear-

    6. CG

      Mm-hmm.

    7. SB

      ... in many respects, like gender roles. And there's a lot of, because of, you know, we're in the post-Me Too movement where a lot of inappropriate behavior was called out. And it's funny, a guy came up to me in the gym, Lifetime Gym just down the road from here in Brooklyn yesterday, came up to me, 25-year-old kid wearing a Barcelona shirt, tapped me on the shoulder and said, "I love your podcast. I listen to it a lot. One question." He goes, "I'm 25 years old." He goes, "Where do I find ro- male role models?" And I remember, I was with Will in the gym, and I just remember thinking, that's so interesting 'cause I'm getting that conversation over and over and over again. I think what he's actually saying is like, what is a man in 2024 and, um, who do I model myself on? Because there is a lot of, you know, if you go on like Twitter, there's a, a crowd of people that are saying Lamborghini, um, 17 women, Rolex, loads of money. And I'm not necessarily sure that's a great example either. And I'm, and then you look at the stats around sui- suicidality amongst men. In the UK where I'm from, it, the single biggest thing that's, has the chance of killing you is suicide.

    8. CG

      Mm-hmm.

    9. SB

      If you are over the age of 18 and under the age of 45 as a man, it's yourself. And as you think about, put all this in context, this sort of like looking for role models, masculinity is really unclear. We've called out men. Do we need to call them back in? What matters? Y- have you got a young son? You've got a son?

    10. CG

      No, I got all girls. I got four daughters.

    11. SB

      You've got, you've got four girls? Damn.

    12. CG

      Yeah, me and my wife got four daughters. I mean, I guess it just depends what you're trying to model. Like, we use that term role model, but what does the term role model mean? Because, you know, uh, y- you can only model yourself after what somebody shows you.

    13. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    14. CG

      Uh, uh, you can only model, you know, yourself off what somebody presents. So if you like that person's Lamborghini, if you like that Rolex, if you like the clothes that they got on, if you like their jewelry, then you're gonna say to yourself, "Okay, that's what I want." So that's what you're modeling. You're not necessarily modeling the man. You're ma- you're modeling the man's things.

    15. SB

      Yeah.

    16. CG

      You know? You, you might as well be a mannequin. You might as well be, you might as well be looking up to mannequins.

    17. SB

      (laughs)

    18. CG

      You know? It's hard to like really, you know, model yourself after somebody's, you know, personality, after somebody's morals, after somebody's values, after somebody's beliefs, 'cause you don't necessarily know exactly what they are. And especially on social media, you just know what people present. So you gotta be very careful of that. Like, I, I would tell people, man, you know, yeah, if you admire something about a person, cool. You know, let that be like a, a, a guide for you, so to speak. It, it gives you a, a, a, a, it's like a flare going up in the air so you kind of know which direction you may wanna go. But you don't know that individual. The only per- individual that you will ever truly know is you.

  8. 27:58 – 30:41

    The Man Charlamagne Wants To Be

    1. CG

    2. SB

      What kind of man do you wanna be, are you trying to be with your therapy, with the work you've done, with your books, et cetera? What are you, what kind of man are you trying to be?

    3. CG

      A good man.

    4. SB

      And what does that mean?

    5. CG

      Um, just somebody who is who they say they are. Like, that's what I always tell people, and that's what I constantly tell myself. I wanna be who I say I am. I wanna be who, you know, if, if you see me, um, saying something, if you see that, that I'm telling you that this is what I believe in, if I'm telling you this is my truth, I want you to know that that's exactly who I am. Like, you not gonna, you know, hear something in the future and be like, "Oh my God, this dude had a whole other life going on. And, you know, he had this going on over here and that going on over here and nobody ever knew about it." No, I'm a, I'm a faithful husband. You know, I am a, a learning father. And the reason I say learning is because you, there's no class on being a parent. None whatsoever. Anybody tells you that, that they got that figured out, they are lying. I got a 15-year-old, a eight-year-old, a five-year-old, and a two-year-old. And every single one of them, you know, challenge me and my wife in completely different ways. And there's been plenty of times when me and my wife sit around, you know, late at night or at dinner somewhere, or just sitting around talking in the bed, asking ourselves if we getting it right. So like, there's no, you know, blueprint or no manual on how to be that. But I just wanna be, um, I wanna be the adult that I feel like I needed when I was a child. You know? I wanna be present. Um, I wanna be, I wanna, I wanna raise them out of love, which is very hard, especially being that I deal with, you know, really bad anxiety in a lot of ways. And I talk about parental paranoia a lot. And, you know, you just have to, man, you have to let go and let God. It, it, like, I'm a faithful person because I have no choice but to be. You know? I, I'm an optimistic person because I have no choice but to be. Like, you know, the, the opposite of, you know, faithful is worried. The opposite of faithful is doubt. And like, you can't raise kids in that way 'cause they got, they gotta live their own life. My 15-year-old, if she wants to go hang out, I can't worry about what may happen.... you know, at the mall. And you know, you o- you open up a newspaper and you see all types of crazy stuff happening in the world. And you see crazy things happening to other people's kids, and, you know, you just is like, "Yo, I don't want my, my child to ever get caught up in anything like that." But, man, sadly, that's just not your call. And you just can't live life like that, man. You can't live life, um, with fear. You gotta live life with faith.

  9. 30:41 – 33:50

    The Route Of Charlamagne's Anxiety

    1. CG

    2. SB

      With all this work you've done on your mental health to understand the anxiety and, um, the bouts of depression and so on, have you been able to pinpoint the causal factors of it in your early years?

    3. CG

      Oh, yeah. I mean, th- my, being, being molested at eight-

    4. SB

      Yeah.

    5. CG

      ... was definitely, definitely part of it. Um, definitely the, the, the bullying, you know, early on. Uh, definitely wanting, uh, wanting my father to raise me out of love and not fear. Um, d- one of the main things that I, I realized when I had like one of my first breakthroughs in therapy was when I realized my dad used to discipline me for things he never taught me. All right? So I remember one, one example I always tell is, like, I had just got my driver's license. And so he told me to follow him somewhere, and he was like, "Follow me. Do what I do." I'm like, "All right." I'm driving, he's driving. And we're coming off, uh, Gilliard Road in Moncks Corner, South Carolina, about to get on the highway. Highway is Highway 52. So we're driving, and we get to the stop sign, but he doesn't stop. He just drives onto the highway. So I drove onto the highway, (laughs) you know? And he pulls over to the side of the road, I pull over to the side of the road. What I didn't notice was, you know, you're coming down the highway, you're driving. He, he drove, like, maybe a sp- not a- I don't wanna say a split second, but, like, s- several seconds before a car was coming. And so I came right behind him, so the, the car had to swerve out of the way. I didn't even notice that. So he tells me to pull over. He pulls over, so I pull over. He gets out the car, he comes to the window, slaps the shit out of me. Right? I'm like... He's like, "Wake up!" (laughs) That's all he said. And I'm just sitting there like... I mean, I think about that now, but there's no teaching in that. Where was the teaching in that? I ain't even realize what I did wrong. You told me to do everything that you did. You literally said, "Do what I do." You ran the stop sign, so I ran the stop sign. And then, once you slapped the shit out of me, you don't even tell me what I did wrong. So that's why I said my father used to discipline me for things that he never even taught me. So I think, um, that's where a lot of the insecurity and anxiety and, you know, imposter syndrome, that's where a lot of that comes from. You know? And the, the, the bouts of depression, I don't n- that's probably just some, a chemical, a chemical i- imbalance or something. 'Cause like that's just... I constantly have to pump myself up. And I do that through prayer, I do that through, you know, daily affirmations. You know, I do that through, like, um, just constantly telling myself I belong, you know? And that's something that I remember being young, my affirmation used to be, "I love Jehovah God and his son Jesus Christ." And I would say that three times. And then I would say, "Fuck Satan." And I would say that three times. And that is what used to get me, like, "Okay, I'm ready. I'm ready for the day, I'm ready for whatever, you know, the, the, the, the day is gonna deliver me." So yeah, it's this. All, all of those things from my childhood contributed to those issues.

  10. 33:50 – 36:53

    Reaching Personal Rock Bottom

    1. SB

      At some point, it appears that you reached a sort of personal rock bottom in those sort of early 20s, and you made a decision to, that enough was enough. And I find that so interesting, 'cause I sit here with so many people who reach that moment where they r- they look at their lives and they go, "Listen, look at, look at what I'm doing with myself." And some of them carry on going, and they're probably not around to sit in the chair. And then some of them hit that rock bottom moment and they go, "I can't carry on doing this with my life." And they make a decision to take at least one footstep in some positive direction, and that starts to compound for them. Is that accurate? Is that an accurate description of what happened in your life?

    2. CG

      Oh, yeah. 'Cause I, 'cause I, 'cause I learned early that everything my father was saying was true. So when my father was telling me, "If you don't change your lifestyle, you gon' end up in jail, dead, or broke under the tree," I actually saw that starting to happen, to not just myself but people around me. So, you know, I had my stint in jail, but then I had people around me that was going to jail for like five years. Like, they were going to jail for actual prison sentences. And, you know, I had people around me that were dying, that were actually, you know, getting killed. And I saw, like, you know, people who, that I used to once look up to, who were older than me, sitting under the tree literally doing nothing with their lives. Like, becoming that next generation of, you know, people who just sit under the tree all day and drink or do drugs or whatever it is. So I saw that happening, and I was just one of those kids that was smart enough to realize, "Man, whatever I'm doing today will directly impact what happens in my life tomorrow." And that's alwa- that's been my mindset since I was, you know, early 20 years old. Like, whatever I wanna be doing five years from now, I gotta start doing now. Literally, that's always been my mindset. And so, you know, when I finally, um, got that break to find the internship in radio, like, just being in that environment, being around that in 1998 as an intern literally made me say, "Okay, this is what I want to do with my future." Before that, I didn't know what I wanted to do. I was going... Speaking of male role models, like I had a, you know, a, a uncle, Uncle Henry, he worked at UPS. I'm like, "All right, maybe UPS is the move." I had a, uh, uh, one of my, my mother's cousins named Bruce, he was in the military. Okay, maybe being in the military is, is the move for me. Like, I was just trying to figure out, you know, what I was going to do.... with my adult life. And, you know, I started working a bunch of odd jobs. I did, I did telemarketing, I worked at a clothing store called Demo in the Mall, I worked at a warehouse called Industrial Acoustics, I worked at a flower garden, I worked at Taco Bell for a couple of weeks 'cause my sister was the manager there. I was just trying to figure things out. And at one point in my life, I worked at Demo in the Mall with my now-wife. I worked at the telemarketing place, and I had stumbled upon an internship probably, like, uh, a year prior, which was at the radio station in 1998. And then around 1999, I actually started being on the air. And once I started being on the air, it just started to let me see what the future could potentially look like.

  11. 36:53 – 38:30

    Working In The Radio

    1. CG

    2. SB

      Up until that point, did you have high hopes for yourself, y- and your future?

    3. CG

      Um...

    4. SB

      Were you ambitious?

    5. CG

      Yeah, because, because, because I thought I was gonna be a rapper.

    6. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    7. CG

      'Cause, you know, most, most young black men, you know, from the hood, you know, in the late '90s or from the, the rural, rural area that I was from in Moncks Corner, South Carolina, you know, when you look on television or you open up these magazines, the people that you see that are successful are usually in rap, hip-hop, in some way, shape or form, are athletics. And so, I thought rapping was gonna be the way to get up off that dirt road in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. That's why, you know, I got, I got a tattoo on my arm. I got Wolverine from the X-men tattooed on my arm, holding a microphone in his hand. I got this tattoo when I was like, I don't even know, like, 18, 19, something like that. And I got, and I got it made by a dude named T. Willis. T. Willis was a tattoo artist in South Carolina. Tattoos weren't even illegal in this time. But I g- I got, I got, I got it, I got it tatted on my arm in his apartment. And the reason I got Wolverine holding a microphone is 'cause I always loved Wolverine because I loved his healing powers. I loved that he was able to heal quickly from things. This is, this is, this is me at 18, 19 years old, not knowing anything about no therapy, not knowing anything about, you know, the, the future journey I would go on of healing. This is just me back then being a young comic book lover, loving the fact that Wolverine had these healing powers and I had him holding a microphone, 'cause I thought the microphone was gonna be, you know, what changed my life, which it ultimately did.

    8. SB

      Mm.

    9. CG

      I just thought it was gonna be through, through rap

  12. 38:30 – 42:21

    Getting Fired 4 Times

    1. CG

      music.

    2. SB

      The microphone ultimately changed your life. I also didn't know that you'd spent this really long stint on the radio from sort of 20 years old doing that internship right up until the Breakfast Club when you were 32 years old.

    3. CG

      Mm-hmm. That's right.

    4. SB

      So that's 12 years. But it's not just 12 years of work and graft and mastering your skill, it's also 12 years of rejection.

    5. CG

      Oh, yeah.

    6. SB

      Getting fired over and over and over and over again.

    7. CG

      I got fired four times. I got fired from four different radio stations. I got fired from HOT 98.9 in Charleston. I used to do radio... I started my career at Z93, which I'm back on now, which is the actual heritage station. So, the Breakfast Club is broadcast on Z93. So I'm back on Z93, but, um, I left Z93, which was the big heritage station in Charleston, to go work for an up-and-coming station called HOT 98.9 simply because, you know, my man, George Cook, who's still a great mentor of mine to this day, he offered me a full-time radio gig. I was on Monday through Fri- Monday through Saturday, seven to midnight. I had to take that. Making, what? I don't know, $19,000 a year or something like that. But that felt so good back then, because I was able to show my mom a contract and say, "Look, I'm making a salary."

    8. SB

      Mm.

    9. CG

      "I'm making $19,000 a year." Right? Like, that just felt good to say that I had a job that I had to be to, you know, uh, every day. And, uh, and not just a job, a job that, um, that she knew about 'cause she would hear me on the radio.

    10. SB

      What did your father think?

    11. CG

      Oh, he loved it. Like, that was... I mean, even when i- when I was on Z93, that was a big deal, 'cause Z93 was the, was the heritage station. Like, that was the station in Charleston. So, that was a big deal for him.

    12. SB

      Was he surprised?

    13. CG

      Um...

    14. SB

      Having shared a jail cell with you at one point, seeing your delinquency through that period of your life, was he surprised?

    15. CG

      And you know what's interesting? I've never had those conversations with him. Even to this day. Like, I've never had, like, that conversation with him, like... Nah, like, you know, he'll, he'll, he'll, he might tell me he's proud of me, stuff like that, but we've never had, like, an in-depth conversation. Like, my mom, like, me and my mom have had, like, those in-depth conversations. Like, my mom has told me things like, you know, "You've accomplished more than, you know, anybody in the family ever thought about accomplishing, accomplishing." Or she'll show me, like, um, the, the, the taxes my, my great-grandfather, her father... Yeah, her fat- was it her father? Yeah, her fa- her father, so my grandfather. She would show me, like, the taxes that he would have to pay on their land. So, like, just to put things in perspective-

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

    17. CG

      ... you know, for me.

    18. SB

      Yeah.

    19. CG

      And, um, yeah, like she's, like I share things with her. Like, I'll share with her how much I'm making or how much I made doing something. Like, I sh- I share things like that with her. And, um, yeah, she's, she's, she's, she's very always supportive, and, you know, lets me know, like, she's proud of me. I remember she, she gave me the best advice a long time ago. She told me, "Just be happy you're making a living." Straight up.

    20. SB

      As a s- survival generation.

    21. CG

      S- but, but, but she... The way she said it was basically, basically saying, you know, this is how you stay humble. She was like, "Just be happy that you're able to make a living." And she's right, 'cause you know how hard it is for some people to make a living?

    22. SB

      Mm.

    23. CG

      Like, like, seriously, it's just... It's hard for some people just to be able to afford some, some wings from the grocery store. Like, it's hard for... People can't afford daycare. Like, things like just little, small, simple, everyday things that, you know, you and I may be able to just take care of, there's a lot of people out here who can't. So, you should very, you should very much be happy just to be making a, a living. So, her telling me that, you know, puts a lot of things in perspective for me, and, um, has kept a lot of things in perspective for me. But nah, me and my pops have never really... We've never really had those conversations.

  13. 42:21 – 48:17

    Panic Attacks & Depression

    1. SB

      32 years old, you joined the Breakfast Club, which is the first time that I- I saw you. Um, heard about you, was entertained by you. But before you joined the breakfast- Breakfast Club, something else w- became really, sort of front of mind in your life, which is anxiety and panic attacks. And you talk about th- this first, sort of panic attack you had while you were driving down Interstate 26, in South Caro- Carolina?

    2. CG

      I-26. That- that was probably the first really, really, really major one. Um, the first one I ever had was definitely in first grade. I will never forget that. Memminger Elementary School. I don't f- I can't forget that to this day. Like, my mom dropped me off first day of school, and I just could not calm down. I mean, bawling, tears, screaming. Like, like, "Ah!" Like, I could not stop. You know? And now when I think back on it, I'm like, oh yeah, I was- I was straight up having a panic attack. I remember the look in my mom's face, like, what is wrong with ... Like, what is going on? Um, but the one I had then, that was after being fired for the fourth time from radio. I was back home living with my mom. Uh, like you say, I think I was 31, 32. I don't remember how old I was. 31, 32. My daughter was like one or two. My now wife was back living at home with her parents, in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. And I remember I was driving down I-26, uh, going to Orangeburg, to go see, uh, Little Duval at a comedy show. He was at a comedy show in, um, Orangeburg. I forgot what school it was. And, um, yeah, I just remember feeling that feeling that I've always felt my whole life. Heart beating crazy fast, mouth getting dry, palms sweaty, feeling lightheaded, dizzy. Had to pull over, get some water, take a few deep breaths and just told myself, like, "Look man, I'm look- I'm a- I'm a go to the doctor yet again." 'Cause I'd, you know, I always would check myself in the emergency room whenever I would have those kind of panic attacks, 'cause I always felt like I was having a heart attack. And so I went to the doctor, and the doctor was like, "Nah, you got it. Your- your- your heart is fine. You got a athlete's heart." And then he was like, um, he said to me, he said, "Yo, you s- you deal with anxiety?" I was like, "Anxiety? What do you mean do I deal with anxiety?" And he was like, um, "The symptoms you're describing sound like a panic attack." He said, "Have you had these before?" And I'm like, "Yeah." And he was like, "Are you stressed out about anything?" And I'm like, "Hell yeah." Like, (laughs) you know? And so he was like, "Yeah, sounds like, you know, that- that's anxiety," you know? And then he was telling me some breathing exercises I could do to possibly deal with it. And then in my mind, after he said, "Are you stressed out about anything?" the first thing I thought to myself was, all I got to do is get another job and everything will be A-okay. I just got to get out of my mom house, get my family back in position and everything'll be okay. Next gig I got was the Breakfast Club. And so, you think, you fast-forward three, four years, I'm having more success than I've ever had in my life. I'm making more money than I've ever made in my life. Everything is going great. But nothing's changed. I'm still having the panic attacks, probably even more so now. I'm still dealing with bouts of depression. And I can't figure out why. I just was not happy. And so that's what finally made me decide to start, you know, going to therapy. We started Breakfast Club in 2010. Then I started going to therapy around 2015. 2015, 2016.

    3. SB

      How bad did your- your depression get in those early years? Those early 30s?

    4. CG

      Oh, nah. It got bad. I mean, it g- it got- it got- it ... Nah, it definitely got bad. It got bad to the point where, like, I was the guy who, you know, you ... Um, I lo- I love to laugh. Definitely love to laugh, love to joke, love to have a good time. But then, like, ye- yeah, tho- those suicidal thoughts just cross your mind for no reason. Like literally, for absolutely no reason. Like, you know, you j- "Now's a good time to end it all." Like just literally, randomly. And you be like, "Uh, what was that?" You know? And even- even now, sometimes. It'll- it'll- it'll cross your mind. And it'll definitely cr- it crosses your mind a lot when you have ... Like I had a- a- a friend who committed suicide, you know? Um, her name was Jazz, Jazz Waters, you know. And we called her Jazz Fly. And me and her used to lean on each other a lot. Like, she committed suicide during, um, COVID. And her and I used to lean on each other a lot. Like, I used to call her, like, my- my- my wartime general. Like, you know, when it was, like, really time to, you know, get busy and, you know, really strategize some stuff, that's who I would pick up the phone and call. And we would always have these conversations about, you know, therapy and, you know, depression and anxiety and all of that. From ... I mean, deep conversations. I'm talking about s- we'd spend Sundays literally, I'd be in the backyard sometimes three, four hour phone conversations. Right? Like, a- a- away from everybody. My- my wife, kids, everyone, just really having conversations. So, you know, when she did it, I remember, um, sitting in my backyard and- and I heard her voice in my head. And it was like, she- she literally said to me, "You still here?" (laughs) You know, like on some ... Like, you still, like you still there on Earth. And I was, I got ... That- that, like, kind of just shook me to my core a little bit. Right? And so it's just like, I constantly do ... Not constantly. Like I don't ... Constantly is a- is a strong word. But yeah, those- those thoughts just cross your mind. I don't know if it's because ... It's not 'cause I actually want to do it, or because I'm thinking about doing it, but because I've had people close to me do it, and because I had those thoughts when I was younger, sometimes I don't know if it's the survivor's guilt maybe, or survivor's remorse of it all, that just makes you think about it. Like, what- what am I still doing here? You know? But then I got a million reasons to still be here. So that I- immediately makes it- makes it go away.

  14. 48:17 – 56:13

    Dealing With Grief And Suicide

    1. CG

    2. SB

      When- when you have a friend like that, that passes in such circumstances, it's, uh, a complex range of feelings. Any, like-I sat here with someone who described that exact same thing to me their best friend, who had said nothing to them, was, um, always there, he was... actually works on radio in the UK. Um, both of them worked in radio and then his radio partner one day died by suicide. Never said anything to anybody, appeared to be fine and the complex set of emotions that he's left with, the regret, the feelings of, "What if? What if I'd said something? Did I reach out?" All of those kinds of things, "Is there anything that I could have done?" All of those feelings. What is that complex set of emotions that you...

    3. CG

      Man. Yeah, you can't do that to yourself. You, you will, but you can't do that to yourself. Because, like I was saying earlier when I talked about, you know, modeling. When you say we're a role model and you're modeling yourself after people, you don't know what's behind all of those layers of a human. Like, we're complex creatures. Like, to me, she was one of the most intelligent, brilliant, creative, strategic human beings I ever met in my life. And she was somebody that, you know, so many of us went to, and I never felt... I didn't, I didn't, I didn't, you know, guilt myself with that because I know that she would come to me with stuff too, and I would always be an ear for her. Like, I was always there for her. Um, but yeah, you'll, you'll, you'll... It is, it's just, uh, to act like, to narrow it down to one emotion is crazy. Like, you know, you'll go through sadness, you'll go through anger, you'll go through happiness, you'll go through frustration, you'll go through, um, thinking about those last moments that that person was here, and you'll be saying to yourself, "I, I, I tried." Like, like, like, "I tried." That's all, that's, that's, that's, that's what I know. That's what I do know. I know for a fact, I tried. Like it's not, 'cause it's not like we didn't, you know, you didn't see things, you know? So it's not like we didn't try to get that person all the help and more that, that, that they needed. But yeah, it is, it is, it is a very, very complex set of emotions. Something that you can't even really put in words. And not even, not something I'm trying to suppress either. Like, you know, it is one of those things you wanna, you, you, you wanna constantly confront, but it's, it's, uh, it's, it's very complex 'cause you wish that you could've... Uh, you, what you really wanted, you wished you could've talked to that person that day. You wish you could've had a conversation with that person that day. That's what you really wish, you know? And see where they, see where they were at in that moment. And, and you, and, and hopefully if you'd... Because you all, I think every- I think everybody would probably do that. Everybody probably says the same thing. I probably say the same thing, her mom probably says the same thing, her father probably says the same thing, her sister probably says the same thing, "If I'd have spoke to her that day, you know, I probably could've got her in a better place." But that's not the way, that's not the way the universe had it, had it designed.

    4. SB

      Your external life changes rapidly when, um... Your external, your world, your everything around you changes when you become a, a star on The Breakfast Club. But internally, you say nothing really changes. If not, if anything, it was potentially worse, the panic attacks, anxiety, the bouts of depression. Lot of people will be surprised by that 'cause there's a bit of... As you said, people think that you get the job, you get the money, you get the fame, (snaps fingers) you're good.

    5. CG

      Well, I was, I was losing myself because I... you gotta think, I'm still in survival mode. I'm still coming off being fired four times.

    6. SB

      Mm.

    7. CG

      You gotta think what my journey was from 1998 up until that moment. Up until that moment, I'm just coming out of my mom's house, living with my mom in Moncks Corner, South Carolina. Like, I'm literally... I'm, I just collected my last unemployment check, right?

    8. SB

      You, you can't chill.

    9. CG

      No. I'm scared to death. Everything that you saw was me, was, was rooted in fear. It was rooted in, "I'm not going back to that. So whatever I have to do to not go back to that, I'm going to do." That's why you see the ruthless, anybody can get it. You know, it's, it's still a lot of pain there that I'm probably projecting onto other people. There's still a lot of hurt there that I'm projecting onto other people. Plus y'all done tried to fire me out of this business four different times. Y'all thought it was sweet when I was down in Moncks Corner, South Carolina, living back home with my mom. Now all of y'all gotta feel my wrath. Like, literally, that's what I was on. And you know, when you getting, when you're getting rewarded for that, that fuels whatever that is, until you realize... Like, for me it was around 20, 2015. You're like, "This, this ain't... This is not what I want."

    10. SB

      How'd you know that? How did you know?

    11. CG

      I just wasn't happy. And I, like... At this time now I got two kids. Like, my, my oldest is, like, seven at the time, in 2015, and my newborn had just been, been born. And, like, I got married in 2014. So it's like, "Yo, am I really about to become my pops?" You know? (laughs)

    12. SB

      (laughs)

    13. CG

      Am I really about to become, you know, th- this... Uh, even though I love this man, I despise the way he, you know, ended up, you know, treating his family, us, treating my mom. And I'm like, "Yo, am I really gonna be that? Am I really gonna get caught up in this radio, you know, radio star." And I'm putting star in air quotes. "Lifestyle, you know? Am I really gon' get caught up in the women? Am I really gon' get caught up in the drugs? Am I really gon' get caught up in the alcohol? Am I really gon' become a caricature of myself, this caricature that I created, you know, to protect, you know, this vulnerable young man named Leonard? Am I really gon' get caught up in that and, and completely lose myself? Am I gon' do that or am I gonna, you know, get back on the path that I know I'm supposed to be on? Am I gonna get back on that, that, that, that, that, that righteous path? Am I gonna do that?" So I chose to go...... the righteous path.

    14. SB

      Sounds simple. Sounds like it was a one, an epiphany one day. But I, I, that's a man speaking in hindsight there.

    15. CG

      Mm-hmm.

    16. SB

      Uh, and I just wanna, 'cause there's be a lot of people that are in that moment-

    17. CG

      Yeah.

    18. SB

      ... where they're looking at their life going, "Thi- is this really who I'm gonna be?"

    19. CG

      Yeah. Yeah, you're right. It's not simple, because you conten- you, you'll constantly lie to yourself. And I think that's why so many people, uh, from the street always end up in the same situation. Like you, there's nowhere you gonna go in any ghetto America, USA, any rural town, USA, where a older person isn't gonna tell a younger person, "You keep living like that, you gonna end up in jail or dead." My dad added the other one, "Or broke sitting, broke sitting under the tree." But everybody thinks they can beat it. Everybody thinks they can live a certain lifestyle, and if they just do this, you know, then that won't happen, or, "That person was stupid, that's why they ended up like that." Nah. You live a certain lifestyle, you move in a certain way, all of y'all gonna meet the same fate. And it's no different, you know, um, even in, even in that space. Like, I was, I was absolutely about to crash. I knew it.

    20. SB

      How?

    21. CG

      Just in, I just, I just saw it coming. Like, a, a crash to me is losing your family, you know? Your, your, your, your wife leaving you. Like, I don't want that. Like, who wants that? Like, I don't envy those type of, I don't envy people like that. I don't envy people who, and I'm not knocking them in no way, shape, or form, but I don't envy people who, you know, lost, lost their families because of infidelity and now they gotta visit their kids on the weekend,

  15. 56:13 – 58:34

    Charlamagne's Infidelity

    1. CG

      you know?

    2. SB

      You w- you were unfaithful to your wife?

    3. CG

      Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

    4. SB

      And she's the love of your life. I mean, there's very few people out there you-

    5. CG

      My soulmate. 100%.

    6. SB

      You've been with her 30 plus years or something? 20, 20, 26 years?

    7. CG

      26. We'll be 26 this year. Absolutely. Absolutely. 26 years. Like, we were kids, you know? And we, we literally grew up together in every sense of the word. Like, literally, the first time I ever filled out a application at a radio station, she drove me because my license was suspended. Like, we were together s- since kids. Like, literally. Like, I wa- I was at her high school graduation. I was at her college graduation. (laughs) You know what I mean? Like, she, like I said, she'd, the first time I ever filled out a application at a radio station, she drove me. Like, she went to college in Columbia, South Carolina, I got a radio job in Columbia, South Carolina. I ended up getting a radio job in New York, she ends up getting a job in New York City. Like, our lives were just like that all the time. We couldn't escape each other if we tried. And to be honest with you, I wouldn't never want to, because like, that has been the one constant in my life. That has been my muse forever. That has been the person who's constantly made me wanna be the best version of myself, even when I wasn't the best version of myself. You know? 'Cause when you ask God for certain things, he's gonna give them to y- he or she is gonna give them to you. So when you tell God, like, "This is what I want. I wanna be with this person for the rest of my life," or, "I'm looking for a soulmate," or, "I'm looking for, you know, m- my, my Hope Brady," or, "I'm looking for my, you know, Clair Huxtable," like, he's going to give you that. But are you gonna be prepared for it when you get it? Same thing with any type of success. Yeah, God, he or she may give you that, but are you prepared for it? I think that a lot of us are, you know, uh, a lot of us get things that we're, we're, we're really not prepared for. And when we get those things we're not prepared for, we don't hold onto them.

    8. SB

      You nearly lost it.

    9. CG

      I feel like I did. Absolutely. I feel like I did. It wouldn't, it wouldn't have been worth it. Even if I would've continued to have success professionally in radio, but meanwhile, my personal life, you know, I lose my wife, I lose my family, that's, that's not worth it. That's, there's nowhere, there's nowhere on this earth where that's a fair trade for me.

  16. 58:34 – 1:00:32

    Growing With Therapy

    1. CG

    2. SB

      You start going to therapy. You go twice a week?

    3. CG

      No, I always started off going once a week.

    4. SB

      Oh, really?

    5. CG

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      When did you start going to therapy?

    7. CG

      2016. Either late, either late 2015 or early 2016.

    8. SB

      Why therapy? Who was, who told you that that was a good idea? 'Cause-

    9. CG

      A lot of people. A lot of people.

    10. SB

      ... a l- a lot of Black, Black men, a bl- a lot of Black Americans period don't seek mental health care. There's a huge disparity. It's almost 100% difference between, um, white people and Black people seeking mental health.

    11. CG

      Mm-hmm. A lot of people. I mean, you know, I'm a big fan of the, the TV show Girlfriends. Grew up watching Girlfriends. That's one of my, one of my wife's favorite shows, so when I would go to her, her house when she was in college, she would have that on and we'd be watching Girlfriends. And like, if you watch Girlfriends, a lot of them were going to therapy. That's the first time I even heard of it, right? But then as I got older, talking to different people, and they were all, you know, ranging from, from men, women. Like, I remember having conversations with, you know, Neal Brennan who's a comedian, and he was in an interview talking about the benefits of therapy. Or my, my, my young homie, Pete Davidson, you know, he was talking about it. You know, my, my homegirl, Debbie Brown, like, she was really into it. Like, not just therapy but just all different facets of healing. Like, if you know Debbie Brown now, like, you, you'd understand why she was on that back then. Like, she's one of the leaders in the mindfulness, you know, mental health space right now. (paper rustles)

    12. SB

      I have some very exciting news to share with all of you. As of yesterday, you can find a 24/7: The Diary of a CEO with Steven Bartlett channel exclusively on Samsung TV Plus in the UK and in the Netherlands. The channel will also be launching shortly in Germany, Switzerland, and Austria. Samsung TV Plus is Samsung's own streaming service which is preinstalled on all Samsung Smart TVs and Galaxy mobile and tablets. And it's completely free. So if you have a Samsung TV, go and watch The Diary of a CEO on your TV, and please do me a favor, take a photo and tag me in it. Thank you. (paper rustles)

  17. 1:00:32 – 1:02:07

    What's Help You To Heal?

    1. SB

      What's helped you to heal? What's... If you look at the, like, toolkit you've used. My girlfriend's alternative healing breath work practitioner, super spiritual. She's helped me a lot with all of my-

    2. CG

      All that.

    3. SB

      ... early childr-... all of that stuff.

    4. CG

      All of it, brother. I done, I, I... Therapy, meditation, breathing exercises. I done did Reiki. I, you know, I got cr- I got crystals at home. You know, I do plant based medicine. I have, I... Like, all of it.

    5. SB

      Ayahuasca? Psilocybin?

    6. CG

      I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've done an, I've done an Ayahuasca journey. That's, that's when I was... That's what I was talking about earlier when I said I went on a, a spiritual retreat.

    7. SB

      Ah, really? Yeah.

    8. CG

      Yeah. Early this year. And that was-

    9. SB

      Peru or South America, was it? Or somewhere else?

    10. CG

      No, no. Na- I did it, I did it, I did it here in the States. It was a, it was a beautiful, beautiful ceremony. Um, and it was... Man, it was very, very, very life-changing. Like, that's where I got the, the revelation. The revelation was, you know, stop lying to yourself and stop volunteering those lies to other people. It's like, yo, whatever, um... Wherever you're at in your life, like for me, it's just like I wanna show up and be my authentic self at all times. Like, me, that's what I want to do all the time. And no matter w- where I'm at in my life, I want to present that. And being on that journey, it literally ripped away every single ounce of falsehood that existed. It j- like, it just shattered it. Like, bah, that gotta go. Like, I watched it in my mind, like, go up in flames. Like, like literally.

  18. 1:02:07 – 1:05:44

    What's The Cost Of Living With The Lies?

    1. CG

    2. SB

      What's the cost if we live with those falsehoods and those lies?

    3. CG

      Depression. (laughs) You know? Probably constant anxiety. You know, a whole lotta insecurities, a whole lotta imposter syndrome. Because, you know, I'm from the country, so I believe in simple sayings, like, "God can't bless who you pretend to be." You know? And I think that constantly we gotta, we gotta constantly check ourselves and make sure we're always showing up as who we are and we're not pretending to be, you know, some version of ourself. That's why I v- that's why... If you read Get Honest or Die alone, I talk so much about social media in the book, 'cause I'm watching so many people lose themselves to social media. Like, I'm talking about intelligent, well-educated, well-read academics are literally losing their selves to social media. You can have conversations with them and you realize, like, all of their talking points are coming from social media. Like, their, uh, their thought process is being dictated by social media. These people care more about their relationships online than they do their actual relationships offline. Like, I know people who are personalities who have, like, you know, uh, podcasts or who may have YouTube shows, you know? And these people will literally be on Twitter all day, be on Reddit all day, listen to what, listening to what people are saying about them, reading what people are saying about them, and crafting their thoughts just to talk to them and that crowd, to just please them. I'm like, "My God, how narrow-minded is that?" That's why f- for me, man, if you're a, if you, if you claim to be an, an, an academic or you claim to be a well-educated person, you cam- you claim to be a, uh, an intelligent, book-smart person, I don't think you're that smart if your emotional IQ is that low. If your em-... If your emotional IQ is so low that people on social media can dictate how you move, how you think, how you talk, you're not a smart person to me. Smart people know how to disconnect from that. And smart people know how to go, you know, do some meditation to make sure that their thoughts are absolutely positively their own. Like, I got people right now today hitting my phone trying to tell me how they feel about the new Kendrick Lamar record. And I love Kendrick Lamar. I think he's fantastic. I think Mr. Morale & the Big Steppers in the future is gon' be known as one of the most hip hop, one of the most important hip hop albums of all time. That one and Jay-Z's 4:44. But people are hitting me, telling me their thoughts and telling me their opinions, and I'm blocking all of that, because I listened to the record, and I listened to it five or six times.

    4. SB

      Same.

    5. CG

      I know what I got from it, I know what I feel about it, and I'm not letting y'all change my mind. (laughs) Okay?

    6. SB

      (laughs)

    7. CG

      But they're doing that because they know that w- d- tomorrow when I'm on the air, I'm going to be talking about it. So, they're trying to curate my thoughts, and they're trying to push my thoughts in a certain direction. I don't want that. And I'm not even... I'm, I'm, I'm just using that record as an example-

    8. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    9. CG

      ... 'cause it's the freshest thing on my mind. But I don't... I'm l- I'm like that with anything. I need my own clarity. I need to, I need to lean into my own discernment. What is my spirit telling me about this situation or this moment or this thing? That's all I care about. I don't care about any of that noise that exists, uh, on social media.

    10. SB

      That's g- that's c- given you a real big competitive advantage in

  19. 1:05:44 – 1:08:00

    Disconnecting From Social Media To Be Original

    1. SB

      many respects, because originality is so-

    2. CG

      That's right.

    3. SB

      ... valuable.

    4. CG

      That's right. You're 100% correct. That's why I laugh at a lot of these individuals, because what also happens is, you know, they start whispering about me.

    5. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    6. CG

      Right? And they start wondering, "Well, why, why is this happening for him?" And, "Why does he get to do this?" And, "Why... Why is that? Like, why is that going on?" Like, they look and, you know, 'cause t- I keep growing.

    7. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    8. CG

      And they wonder why. They wonder why I keep growing and they don't. I tried to tell you. Disconnect. How you g-... How, how are you gonna grow when you're not even watering...... your own garden. Because if, if, if you're, if, if you're getting on social media and you're reading what they're saying about you, and you're catering all your thoughts and all your talking points to appease those people, you're not watering your garden. You're, you're, you're literally trying to water somebody else's.

    9. SB

      (laughs)

    10. CG

      So, as you're, you're, as you're watering somebody else's, that continues to grow, and that continues to get louder and louder and louder. But meanwhile, you just stagnant.

    11. SB

      It's scary, though. It's scary to ignore, and then to show up as yourself in a world where we're rewarding conformity with the likes, the claps, the, okay, you won't be canceled because you, you fit in, it's, when you say, "Oh, I'm gonna disconnect. I'm gonna be myself. I'm gonna be authentic," I go, "Jesus Christ. That is it, um-"

    12. CG

      Man, I get, I get attacked all the time for thoughts. For opinions.

    13. SB

      Yeah.

    14. CG

      Because I don't go along with, with, with, with the mob. And I'm not even, I'm not a contrarian in any way, shape, or form. I just know that nothing is black, nothing is white. There's always those areas of gray in the middle. There's nuance to everything. Like, d- like, y- you can be objective about everything, right? Like, if, there, there, there, there has to be a certain level of, "Well, let me see where this person is coming from." You gotta hear both sides. To me, that's just common sense. And I feel like the only way to get the real truth about anything is if you see where both sides are coming from. I can't just dismiss you as wrong because you have a different opinion than mine, or you feel differently to mine. I gotta hear where you're coming from

  20. 1:08:00 – 1:11:50

    What's Your View On Trump?

    1. CG

      first.

    2. SB

      There's no political party called nuance. And we're, we're in-

    3. CG

      Oh, yeah. That's right.

    4. SB

      ... we're in a, we're in an election year. I know this as well. I think if I, if I wanted to go viral, I just gotta do a hot take for either side, because there's algorithms for that. There's a group of people that are gonna pick that up and retweet it and send it. But the people in the middle, it's, there's no... And we're going into this election year now where there's, as I've heard you say, there's really no great choices.

    5. CG

      Yeah.

    6. SB

      But on that point you just said about being able to see the other side, what do you think about Trump?

    7. CG

      I think that, uh, I've s- I mean, I say this everywhere I go. I think Donald Trump is a threat to democracy. You know? I don't think that you should have anybody, uh, e- especially in the United States, you can't have a leader of a country who says, said, said he, "We should suspend the Constitution to overthrow the results of an election." I mean, he, he led an attempted coup of this country. Like, we watched it. We saw it. You know? Um, I, yeah, I just don't think a person like that should be president of the United States of America. I think that if you're facing, you know, the type of criminal charges that he's facing... What is it? 80, 86 counts or something like that now? 86 counts, 88 counts? I can't remember the exact number. But if I was facing 88 counts of any criminal charge, I wouldn't be able to work at Walmart.

    8. SB

      (laughs)

    9. CG

      Nonetheless, you know, run to be president of the United States of America. So, I just don't think that he's, you know, he's, he's, he's not somebody that should, should be in that position. But I understand why he is in that position, because he's, he's, he's good at messaging.

    10. SB

      What do you think about the people that follow Trump? D'you, d'you think they're good people?

    11. CG

      S- some of them. That was even, even that is a very broad question, right?

    12. SB

      Yeah, yeah.

    13. CG

      Like, when you say, "What do you think about the people that follow Trump?" Those people aren't monolithic.

    14. SB

      Yeah, yeah.

    15. CG

      All of those d- all of those people, those 70-plus million people who voted for Trump, a lot of them voted for Donald Trump for a l-, for a lot of different reasons. I have actual friends, who will remain nameless, who I know voted for Donald Trump, and I know they're great people.

    16. SB

      Mm-hmm.

    17. CG

      And they didn't vote, they not, they're black. They're also black too, and they're not like the, they're not black conservatives. They're not in any way, shape, or form. They are black, like pro-black individuals. And like, that's what I mean when I say having conversations with people, because you get to see why people do, you know, different things. I know why that person told me they voted for Donald Trump back in, you know, 2016. Just like I know individuals now who tell me why they, they, they voted for him in 2016 or, or, or, or 2020, and you can't just chalk everybody up to being a racist. You know, you can't just chalk everybody up to, you know, not caring, uh, about LGBTQ issues or whatever it is. People have different reasons and interests why they vote for people. It might be one thing. It might be one interest that they vote for.

    18. SB

      Yeah, yeah, yeah.

    19. CG

      That's what they always tell you, right? They tell you to vote your interests. So, it's the same thing with a, with a President Biden. I can look at a million things that President Biden has done that I do not like. The 80, 86 mandatory minimum sentencing, the '88 crack laws, the '94 crime bill, all of that. I got, there's a million things I can point to and say, "I don't like that he, he, he did this." But if the, if, if the one interest is to at least protect democracy in 2000 and, and, and 24, or if you're somebody who got their student loan debt wiped away, you, that might be it. If you're somebody who can afford insulin now because of President Biden, that might be the reason you vote for him. So, it's just like, yo, everybody has different reasons as to why they vote for different candidates. That's why you, I don't even think the question is fair when you say, "Well, what do you think about the people who voted for such and such?" Like, I'm not the, I'm not the person I vote for.

  21. 1:11:50 – 1:14:19

    Healing And Rebuilding The Relationship With His Father

    1. CG

    2. SB

      When we get to speak to those people, we understand their motives. Until then, we kind of misunderstand them and I think-

    3. CG

      That's right.

    4. SB

      ... I see that crossover with you and your father, because eventually you had a conversation with him. You talked about that conversation at the very beginning of this one, where you finally had empathy for him and his experience and his life.

    5. CG

      Mm-hmm.

    6. SB

      That conversation with your father where you rebuilt your relationship and finally understood him, did that help your healing journey?

    7. CG

      Absolutely. 100%. Because like I said, I never quite had the relationship, uh, with my father that I, I wanted to. And it's, I mean, it's not too late. He's still here, right? Um, but yeah, it, it did, because I realized in that moment that he was just a man who was just doing his best.

    8. SB

      Yeah.

    9. CG

      And he didn't have the tools that I have. He didn't have the resources that I have, even though he was going to therapy two and three times a week, even though he was on the 10 to 12... He was on 10 to 12 different medications. The state of South Carolina just started giving him a check. And we used to call that a crazy check back in the day. You just get a check for being crazy. Like, I knew people who used to play crazy to get a check. I remember when I went to my mom and said, "Yo, did you know dad was going through all of this?" And she was like, "Yeah, I just thought he was playing crazy to get a check." So it's like all of those... You know, if, if, if I would have known when I was young, if he would have told me all of those things when I was young, then I probably would have ended up on a totally different path much earlier. I guess that's another example of, like, you know, role models, right? Because I think another ti- uh, a lot of times when we say role models, we think it has to be just about all the good a person is doing. But if a person has dealt with a lot of the things that you're going through, because a lot of this stuff is genetic, right? Like, if a person is dealing with their own anxiety, if a person is dealing with their own, you know, bouts of depression. My father, he was already in therapy. He was already on 10 to 12 different medications. He tried to commit suicide. If he would have told me all of that when I was young-

Episode duration: 1:33:18

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