Chris Kamara: The Untold Heartbreaking Story Of A Football Legend!

Chris Kamara 0:00 Every day I wake up, the first thing I think, "Am I gonna be able to talk today?" There's been a red card, but for who, Chris Kamara? I don't know, Geoff Hazlett. One of Britain's best-loved football pundits- (buzzer) It's been a cracker, Geoff. You beauty! (laughs) Unbelievable, Geoff. What a cracking game! As a young Black kid, thinking that one day I'll play for Middlesbrough and for Leeds, ambition and dream achieved.

Steven Bartlett 0:36 The story of your mother I found really difficult to read.

Chris Kamara 0:38 It was difficult in those days. Men, uh, were physical towards women. I made the mistake of telling my dad on his deathbed that it was wrong. I should've kept it to myself, hmm.

Steven Bartlett 0:59 Why?

Chris Kamara 1:01 (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 1:04 For someone that has never experienced apraxia, what does it feel like for you in your head?

Chris Kamara 1:10 I feel a fraud now in terms of broadcasting.

Steven Bartlett 1:15 You feel a fraud?

Chris Kamara 1:16 Yeah. Hmm. Hmm. I was gonna quit everything.

Steven Bartlett 1:27 Without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is The Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. Chris,

Steven Bartlett 1:44 what do I need to know about your earliest years to understand the man that you are today?

Chris Kamara 1:52 (smacks lips) Ooh. (sighs) I don't know really. Um, my childhood is slightly clouded, um, so I wouldn't change anything, 'cause you can't change the course of history, but life was difficult growing up, very difficult. Um, so, yeah, uh, I d- I wouldn't change anything, to be honest, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 2:20 When you say clouded...

Chris Kamara 2:22 Well, good days, bad days. We had, uh, terrible racism at the time, uh, when I was growing up. I was born in '57, so in the '60s it wasn't good. We were the only Black family on our estate, so anything happened and the police would come knocking on our door, take our dad away and he'd have to get cleared and come home and it, the whole process would start again. "It's that Black family there who are causing all the problems." And occasionally, uh, not all the time, my dad w- liked to bet, so he would, on a Thursday, he, when he got paid, they got paid in cash then, brown envelopes, uh, would occasionally go to the bookies, and so we'd end up, you know, struggling for food. So, it's clouded in those ways. Um, I'm looking through those clouds now, but, you know, uh, thinking it didn't do me any harm. But it happened, you know?

Steven Bartlett 3:41 Your, your mother and your father's relationship?

Chris Kamara 3:43 Uh, Mum was the most loyal wife you could ever have. Absolutely. Even if her and Dad had arguments or fights or whatever, she would vehemently stick up for him, you know, when anybody called him, you know, the N-word was vibrant back in those days, and, you know... I hear these stories now that it's impossible to understand, uh, racism if you're not Black. It's not true. It's totally not true. My mum got called a N-lover, uh, throughout, you know, the '60s, when I was aware of it, uh, and she came through it, so she knew exactly what racism was about. Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:41 Your father was from Sierra Leone?

Chris Kamara 4:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:43 And your mother was from...

Chris Kamara 4:45 Middlesbrough.

Steven Bartlett 4:45 Middlesbrough?

Chris Kamara 4:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 4:49 People don't always think about that. They don't think about how the... In, in that context, 'cause my mother's from Nigeria and my dad's from Coventry.

Chris Kamara 4:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 4:57 So I'm, I've, you know... And what my dad went through as well, because his wife was Black, um, is often not t- spoken about, but often-

Chris Kamara 5:08 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:08 ... the, the partner carries the weight and the, the, um, the insults all the same.

Chris Kamara 5:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:16 I, I was reading through your story about how your mother would also, on Thursdays, she would walk up to 10 miles-

Chris Kamara 5:22 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 5:22 ... to go and get your dad's pay packet-

Chris Kamara 5:26 Yeah. It's-

Steven Bartlett 5:26 ... through fear that he might spend it.

Chris Kamara 5:28 Yeah, she had to, and so it became a ritual in the end. She would do it all the time. In the end, when we were older, as kids, she didn't have to carry us to the, uh, workplace, which was (laughs) 10 miles away, uh, round journey, and, uh, so she, they ended up, she would walk to meet Dad and they would go off into town together, you know, and that became the norm, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:01 Did your dad ever show the...... impact or the consequences of the way he was being treated like an outsider in a country where he- people were telling him he didn't belong.

Chris Kamara 6:12 Uh, to us as kids.

Steven Bartlett 6:14 Did you ever see the impact of him emotionally? Did it manifest itself in drinking or was there ever a sign that it was impacting him?

Chris Kamara 6:22 Uh, he told us often enough. He'd been involved in s- fights, uh, back then, fistfights, you know. That was the norm, you know. He had to stand up and be counted. But he was always the one arrested in those fighting situation. Um, but he, he had this thing and he drove it into me and my brother, "Don't ever react." You know? "I might be reacting but whatever you do, don't react." You know? "Take it on the chin, uh, and ride through it. Uh, you'll get through it that way. It's been harder for me and I'm doing this for you, so, you know, you'll benefit."

Steven Bartlett 7:15 And m- money, uh, you know, the other thing that I read that w- I found, I found really difficult to read was the story of your, your mother when y- your dad's gambling problems were very difficult. Your mother would... And you didn't have money. Your mother would go round to other houses in the street and knock on the doors and ask for bread or anything-

Chris Kamara 7:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 7:36 ... or money or-

Chris Kamara 7:37 That's wh- how it had to be. You know, if you've got Tuesday and Wednesday to come, uh, on a Monday and you haven't got food and milk and that until y- Dad gets paid on Thursday, she'd go and borrow money or milk or bread, uh, from the neighbors. She had to... She got turned away more often than not, but she persevered. She had to, she had to look after her kids.

Steven Bartlett 8:09 How did you feel a- amongst that time? So, you, what age are you at this point, five, six, seven, eight?

Chris Kamara 8:14 Um, well, yeah. It wasn't all the time, you know. It was occasional. So, yeah, I would say, from eight year old, I became aware of it more. Uh, I know it's eight because I had to light a coal fire at eight years of age. Can you imagine? You know, I can't imagine asking my boys to get wood and paper and matches and then light the paper, and then once the wood gets going, put the coal on top. At eight years of age, yeah, yeah (sniffs) , yeah. Spooky, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 9:00 You were asked to do that to heat the home?

Chris Kamara 9:01 Yeah. Uh, they, we didn't have central heating. You had a fire, coal fire.

Steven Bartlett 9:07 Mm-hmm.

Chris Kamara 9:07 That was all. Yeah. You had a oven in the back of the house in the kitchen, so you'd put the gas on to heat the kitchen when it was really cold.

Steven Bartlett 9:20 Mm-hmm.

Chris Kamara 9:20 But the main source of heat and the hot water was the fire.

Steven Bartlett 9:26 Was there, was there a lot of love in your home?

Chris Kamara 9:29 Uh, yeah, I would say intermittently. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, when I look back now, um, I wouldn't change anything even though there are aspects that I'd like to change. Uh-

Steven Bartlett 9:48 Aspects?

Chris Kamara 9:49 Yeah, one or two. Yeah, one or two things. You know, uh, the thing I want, don't wanna do is, is destroy the person who my dad is for my grandkids. But it was difficult in those days, you know. Men, uh, were physical towards women. Uh, so, yeah, yeah. Uh, difficult, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:21 I sat here not so long ago with Alex Scott, the, the, um, football presenter broadcaster.

Chris Kamara 10:28 Yeah, I worked with Alex at Sky. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 10:32 Her book comes out in 10 days time, and in the book, I was reading about how, um, she's never spoken about it before publicly, but she would come home and watch her father beating her p- uh, her mother constantly.

Chris Kamara 10:46 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:46 And the mark that left on her as a young child h- having to witness that kind of violence in the home.

Chris Kamara 10:52 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 10:52 And it's not really talked about enough, and it's funny, the reason why I bring that up is because she's also grappling with the same ph- um, fear of tarnishing her father's-

Chris Kamara 11:02 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:03 ... life.

Chris Kamara 11:04 Yeah. Yeah. But it was done, I presume, my dad grew up with it, uh, and so he thought it was okay for him to do it. But like I say, you know, my kids will probably listen to this and, you know, I don't wanna say too much on it.

Steven Bartlett 11:27 Is there a mixture of emotions around it? 'Cause that's what I observed in Alex as well was there's this like you look at someone in your life, whether it's her- a parent or someone you love, and you say, "That behavior was wrong, but at the same time, I, I love you."

Chris Kamara 11:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 11:41 "You're still my father." And it's, uh, you know, that, that balancing act of like, "Should I hate this person? Should..." You know, it's like...

Chris Kamara 11:48 Mm. Yeah. I made the mistake of telling my dad on my death, on his deathbed, uh, that it was wrong. And he, he sound like wouldn't accept that he'd done what he'd done. So, you know, it-Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 12:15 Why does that make you emotional?

Chris Kamara 12:18 (clicks tongue) Well, (sniffs) um, (clicks tongue) I shoulda kept it to myself.

Steven Bartlett 12:27 Why?

Chris Kamara 12:28 (clicks tongue) Why wait until he's nearly dead to say something? I'm a grown man in this time.

Steven Bartlett 12:41 Your mother-

Chris Kamara 12:42 Mm-hmm. (clicks tongue) Yes.

Steven Bartlett 12:44 ...puts a smile on your face?

Chris Kamara 12:45 Yeah, of course.

Steven Bartlett 12:48 Um, what role has she played in making (clicks tongue) you the man you are today?

Chris Kamara 12:53 Um, (clicks tongue) she was everything you could want in a mom. Uh, she would do anything for me. Um, sh- she did. My dad never saw my school report from the age of five until I left school at 16. Uh, she protected me that way. And so, yeah. Uh, but not only that, you know, m- moms are great, and she looked after the family, um, a- as good as she possibly could. And, you know, she was my world, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 13:40 And at that age, what, what was your, what were your dreams? (clicks tongue) If I'd asked you the question, "What do you wanna be when you grow up?"

Chris Kamara 13:45 Yeah, footballer.

Steven Bartlett 13:47 Yeah.

Chris Kamara 13:47 No danger. Playing for Middlesbrough initially, and then when I saw Leeds on Match of the Day around there, May Souths, Borough or Leeds, you know? Ambition to play for Borough, dream to play for Leeds. So footballer, nothing else. Tunnel vision, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:10 Why football? What was it doing for you?

Chris Kamara 14:13 Oh, everything. Yeah. I used to play on the field near h- our house, with, against grown men from the age of 12. And I wasn't bad, you know? And they would try to kick lumps out of this little kid who was m- embarrassing 'em. So, yeah, it stood me in good stead. You know? When I played against men at 16, I could look after myself.

Steven Bartlett 14:45 Eventually, you, um, you end up going and doing a couple of months in the, the army.

Chris Kamara 14:50 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 14:51 How did that happen?

Chris Kamara 14:51 The Navy, actually.

Steven Bartlett 14:53 The Navy, sorry. (laughs)

Chris Kamara 14:53 Yeah. No, um, uh, Dave Richardson, uh, was our, uh, coach at Middlesbrough Boys. Came round my house and said to my dad, uh, "There's a chance, not guaranteed, that, uh, Chris'll be taken on, uh, as an apprentice at Middlesbrough." And he went, "No. No, he's not going. Uh, if he stays in Middlesbrough, um, he'll become, uh, he'll be in trouble with police. Uh, he'll end up drinking and stuff like that. He's not staying in Middlesbrough. He's going in the Navy." He made my brother join the army, and he made me join the Navy. Literally frog-marched me down to the recruitment office and sign on the dotted line. Could you imagine? You know, well, I can't imagine doing that to my kids, you know? And in a way, I think that worked against me with my kids, because I never pressurized my kids to do anything at all. You know, let them do whatever they wanted. Whereas, I probably could've been a, you know, little bit more, in terms of football or, you know, e- eh- but I wanted, whatever they wanted to do was my wish, and I think that came from my dad, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 16:32 When he marched you down there... And y- you had a love for football at that time. He marched you down there and he wanted you to join the Navy. H- how did you feel?

Chris Kamara 16:41 (clicks tongue) Um, not good, I have to say. Not good. Um, it was one of those things. I left, Middlesbrough Boys were in a semifinal, um, the week before I was going in the Navy. So I knew I had this final coming up when I signed, uh, semifinal coming up when I signed, uh, for the Navy. So I was thinking hopefully the semifinal and final, uh, of the Middlesbrough Boys, uh, will be over. But I played the semifinal, and then I didn't, uh, get in touch with Dave Richardson to tell him I wouldn't be there for the final, because I was off to Torpoint in Devon, uh, well, Cornwall. It's across the water from Plymouth, um-

Steven Bartlett 17:43 That's where I'm from, Plymouth.

Chris Kamara 17:44 Yeah. Plymouth, yeah. So you know it's Cornwall and not Devon. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 17:48 (laughs)

Chris Kamara 17:49 But it's, uh, it's a, a stone's throw.

Steven Bartlett 17:52 Mm-hmm.

Chris Kamara 17:52 And, uh, that's where I got my lucky break. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 17:57 Your lucky break?

Chris Kamara 17:58 (clicks tongue) Yeah. Uh, when the Navy football team were training there. So, uh, I went down, um, (clicks tongue) one day, and, uh, I asked the coach if I could, uh, train with them and the team. And he went, "No- (yawns) Three reasons. One, you're on a trial. So, yeah, what it did, you were on a trial situation whereas, uh, you got to six weeks, whether you liked the Navy or they liked you, and if not, you could leave. So he said, "Come back in six weeks, uh, if you want." And the other thing, he said, number two, he said, is, "You're Black, and these lot'll kick lumps out of you, so to speak." So... And the third thing is, "You're too skinny. You're not gonna be strong enough to play in the, uh, Navy football team." So I said, "Okay." Anyway, got to six weeks, was fine, uh, was okay, and then, uh, there's a six-month period then where you can decide if you want to stay in the Navy or not. So, uh, I went back to see him, and he kept saying, "No, no, no." And then one day, I was running round the track while the Navy football team, and he said, "Look, we're two players short. I'll play on one side, you play on the other. Just stay out on the wing and you'll be fine." (sniffs) So I said, "Okay." Anyway, uh, I scored two goals from the wing and got drafted straight into the team straightaway, and, uh, the rest is history, uh. We played Portsmouth, uh, reserves, uh, and, um, Navy side. I scored another two goals against them. They asked how old I was, and they bought me out for the magnificent sum of 200 pounds. And, uh, my dad, um, uh, I phoned my dad and I told him what was happening, and he wasn't happy. So, uh, I spoke to the Navy and said, "Look, would you do me a favor? Would you give me a letter saying if it don't work out as a footballer, I can go back in the Navy?" And they said, "Yeah, fine." So I got that letter, uh, sent it to Dad, and it sort of, like, made him, you know, a bit more settled, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:02 And then it happens, your, your career at Portsmouth.

Chris Kamara 21:05 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:05 Lot of people don't, um, lot of people will never appreciate, especially in this, the modern era, even me, even me as a, as a guy that has a, a Bla- Black mother and a white father, the, what racism was like back in the '50s and '60s, you know?

Chris Kamara 21:20 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:20 The first time I experienced racism was maybe 1998? No, it would've been later. It would've been about 2000, roughly, about when I was-

Chris Kamara 21:30 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:30 ... maybe eight or nine or 10?

Chris Kamara 21:31 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:31 But when I was reading through what you experienced at that, in that time-

Chris Kamara 21:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:35 ... almost constantly-

Chris Kamara 21:37 Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:38 ... I just, it, it's, it makes, it almost makes my experience feel like it was nothing.

Chris Kamara 21:42 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 21:43 And I mean that, like-

Chris Kamara 21:44 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:44 ... I remember, like, once or twice or three times-

Chris Kamara 21:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:46 ... you know, over the course of my whole childhood, people being overtly racist.

Chris Kamara 21:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:51 But when was the first time someone was racist to you?

Chris Kamara 21:53 Uh... (sighs)

Steven Bartlett 21:54 Your first memory?

Chris Kamara 21:55 I know exactly when it all scattered. I'll never forget it. (sniffs) I was eight years old, once again, and that was the time where I could light the fire and go to the shops to get cigarettes. So you went with a note for the shopkeeper. So it was, uh, 10 Woodbines for my mum and 20 Capstan full strength for my dad. So I went to the shop, uh, gave the note to the shopkeeper, uh, and he's getting in, this woman (hands clap) uh, came in the shop. Anyway, she asked for a pint of milk, a loaf of bread, I'm not sure of those details, and, uh, he said, "I, um, I'm serving this young man here." She said, "His lot should go back to where they came from." And I thought, "I live five doors away from you," you know? Uh, "I'm not, you know, from somewhere else." And he said, "No, look." He stood his ground, the shopkeeper, and served me, and I went out with, uh, a ringing in our ears, you know, "Them Blacks and so-and-sos shouldn't be here," mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:15 It says it all that you can remember that day with such detail.

Chris Kamara 23:18 Mm-hmm. (smacks lips) I can, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:21 Hmm. I, I... That's something I don't think people realize, is the first time someone called me a, the N-word at school, I remember everything about that day.

Chris Kamara 23:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:28 I can't remember many other days, but for some reason, that was a, it's a very traumatic experience, and the first sort of signs that you're different-

Chris Kamara 23:36 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:36 ... unwelcome.

Chris Kamara 23:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:38 Um, and that would go on to continue throughout your-

Chris Kamara 23:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:43 ... ch- childhood, your football career. I read, I read about the story when you were playing against Millwall, I believe it was-

Chris Kamara 23:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 23:49 ... and someone had thrown a banana on the pitch at you.

Chris Kamara 23:51 Mm-hmm. (smacks lips) Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 23:53 I read-

Chris Kamara 23:53 Millwall was, uh, horrific, but not just for me as a Black person. It was for any footballer that went there, you know?

Steven Bartlett 24:04 Yeah.

Chris Kamara 24:04 Basically, but even harder for me. I can always remember, uh... Once again, if you ask me about my career, and there's, you know, lots I forget, but the first time I took a throw in there, the ball went out and then they kept the ball initially-... who wouldn't give me it, and then eventually got throw on to the pitch, and the, uh, um, fans are virtually there and you're taking a throw-in from there. So I'm sort of, like, taking this throw-in and all of a sudden, spit is on the back of my head, the back of my... I never took a throw-in ever there again. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 24:52 (laughs) Let someone else take it.

Chris Kamara 24:54 Yeah. That lesson was truly learnt, oh yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:57 (laughs)

Chris Kamara 24:58 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 24:59 And the, the, the, uh, the other story which I, I found, it just sounded like something from a thousand years ago, was when you went to the pub after a game with your team and the, the pub owner-

Chris Kamara 25:10 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 25:10 ... made a comment, a racist comment to you.

Chris Kamara 25:12 Yeah. Yeah, that was in Wetherby. I'd played for Portsmouth at Sunderland, um, in 1976, I think. Sunderland needed to win to get promotion to the, what is the Premier League now, the old First Division. We needed a win to stay up in the old Second Division, um, what is the Championship now? Anyway, Sunderland won that day, um, always remember that game, uh, for two reasons, not just the Wetherby incident. Uh, I drank champagne for the first time. Uh, Sunderland sent a case of champagne into the dressing room 'cause they'd got promoted that day. Um, so we get on the coach, uh, every, virtually every team that played Sunderland or Newcastle would stop at Wetherby for fish and chips. Um, so, uh, so we stop, so we all pile in the pub, uh, most of the players and them, and the barman says, "We don't serve his kind in here." And, uh, the lads were all going and I went, "No, no, no, it's fine." Uh, to be honest, I was underage anyway, I was 17, um, but that didn't matter. Back then, I'd been going in the pubs since I was 14, you know. Um, so I went, "No, no, it's fine." Anyway, Micky Mellows, one of my teammates said, "I'll bring you a pint, Al." But that was the first time that my teammates realized, you know, "Do you get that often," and stuff like that. I said, "Yeah, occasionally," you know, but part of life, you know, you get on with it, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:19 It's one thing to, to shrug it off, and, um, I feel like in that situation, there's a time-

Chris Kamara 27:25 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:25 ... and place, you know, uh, f- to, to, um, to address some of these things or con- to confront them. Your, your father had taught you to kind of not react, as you say.

Chris Kamara 27:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 27:35 But as you look back on that period of your life, how did that racial abuse sh- shape and change you as a man?

Chris Kamara 27:43 Uh, it made you wary of other people. Obviously, you know, not happy, but I wouldn't say, "Oh, God, it's traumatized me," or something like that. And then the Black Lives come out and people start telling their stories of racism and the way they've been treated and you think, "Oh, why can't I tell my story now?" And I have done, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:14 Has that helped you, telling your story, do you think?

Chris Kamara 28:16 Yeah. To be honest, I wouldn't say it's helped me or not helped me. I think, uh, since I've had this, uh, well, I've got two conditions, an underactive thyroid and, uh, apraxia. Uh, the underactive the thyroid, uh, plays with your emotions, uh, so I get a lot more emotional now, whereas stuff I wouldn't even bat an eyelid in the past, because of this little butterfly, uh, thyroid in my neck,

Chris Kamara 28:52 it now makes me more emotional, mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 28:57 When did you discover the underactive thyroid?

Chris Kamara 28:59 Uh, well, it's funny, you know, it's really funny, um, it's... I did, going through lockdown initially, the first lockdown in March, uh, when the weather was great and everyone, you know, quite... You know, I think they were gutted about the lockdown, but the fact you were at home and the sun was shining, things were slightly different. I did loads and loads of shows from home, you know, Celeb Juice and Stesh Pack Lunch, ITV Lorraine and stuff like that, Sky Sports, from the, you know, uh, barn at home, you know. So that was fine. So, uh, all of a sudden, I began to not feel well, um, too well, but I always shrugged it off. I'd take, you know, tablets and be fine the next day and all that sort of stuff. But it wasn't going away, and uh, I thought, "What's going on?" But I ignored it, ignored it, which is the worst thing you can possibly do. So I would get away with it at home by-... hardly not being the person I was. You know, I'm not talking as much. When I'm broadcasting for Sky, I'm trying to keep minimalistic because some of the words are coming out slurred and stuff like that. So, uh, eventually, um, I've got to go and see someone because I literally went a whole year, if not 20 months, before I actually got diagnosed with underactive thyroid. So it was all my prayers answered at once. Uh, you know, uh, "You've got an underactive thyroid. Take levothyroxine. And once you find your level of levothyroxine, you'll be fine." Great. Doctor's, "Great. Uh, sort it out." So eventually, you take 25 grams or whatever it is of levothyroxine. Uh, eventually when you find your level, you're fine. So I get to 175 and my thyroid is stabilized, but my voice condition is still exactly the same, so what's going on? So my doctor then says, "Go for a brain scan." So I go for a MRI scan. Anyway, I go and see a brain specialist. He looks at the X-rays, the MRI scan. "Fine, not a problem. Nothing wrong with your brain. It's gotta be something else that's going on." So, uh, uh, go back to my GP and tell him what's going on. He's got the report from the brain scan. So he says... He, he won't give up, my GP. He says, "It's not obviously your, uh, thyroid. There's something else going on. Would you go and see this Dr. Lily in Leeds? He's a specialist." So I go and see Dr. Lily in Leeds. Uh, and before, uh, I've only said hello to him. Uh, and before I can even chat to him, he says, "You've got apraxia of speech." "Right. How do you know?" "I can tell straight away. The difficulty between the brain and your mouth being able to speak, you know, it was probably slower than it is now, uh, at that time." So he said, "Look, you know, I want you to go and have a DAT scan, which is... which rules out Parkinson's or stroke and all that sort of stuff." I did. Uh, went back to see him with the result... for the results, I should say. And he went, uh, "The good news is, uh, you haven't got Parkinson's or anything like that. The bad news is, you know, we can't find anything else wrong with you. So, you know, the apraxia, you know, will probably get worse." And, uh, and, you know, uh, that went on for quite a while. Uh, I went to see a therapist and he kept saying to me, "Look, you need to tell people. You know, you can't continue on TV and people are saying, 'Is he drunk?' and 'What's the matter with him? Has he had a stroke?' You need to come out and say something." I said, "I can't. I can't. I'd rather quit than actually say something." Uh, anyway, eventually I, uh, spoke to my mate Ben Shepherd. Uh, told him what was going on. So he said, "Look, come on, uh, GMB, uh, we'll chat about it and let the world know, uh, what's going on."

Steven Bartlett 34:53 How were, how were things for your family during this period?

Chris Kamara 34:57 Um, my boys had been saying to my wife, "There's something wrong with Dad," uh, for a while. And she sort of, like, would broach it with me but I'd be quite snappy and, you know, which I'm not anyway. You know, and saying, "No, I'm fine. I'm fine. Don't worry about it. I'm fine." And I kept thinking, like I said, once I got the thyroid problem, the levothyroxine will take it away. Uh, and then, um, it's still wi- with me and, uh... Yeah. It's harder for people close to you, I think. You know, because my two boys saying, "Are you okay, Dad?" "Oh yeah, I'm fine. I've just had a bad day, you know. Don't worry, I'll be fine." Uh, but they know, you know. You can't pull the wool over their eyes for too long.

Steven Bartlett 36:08 For someone that has never experienced what it's like to have apraxia-

Chris Kamara 36:13 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 36:14 ... what does it feel like for you in your head?

Chris Kamara 36:17 Uh, it feels like someone is taking over my voice box. So the voice that used to come out would come out at 300 mile an hour, you know. You've seen me on the-... results and, uh, Soccer Saturday, you know, motor mouth, talking, uh, not even waiting for a breath, just keep going and going. Now, when I hear myself or see myself on TV, it's someone else. It's strange. It's really strange. Some days, you know, the message from the brain to the mouth is really slow, yeah? Makes it difficult or some days the words come out different that what you're trying to say. And th- that's even weirder. Uh, and so that's been hard to accept, and still hard to accept, I have to say. You know, uh, I was gonna quit everything, you know, literally every single bit of TV at the end of last season. Leave Sky, uh, quit BBC, quit ITV, quit Channel 4 and 5, and all those companies. Uh, BBC... I think it was the right time to leave Sky. Uh, I'd had a great innings. But BBC, ITV, Channel 4 and Channel 5 said, "No, no. You're coming. It doesn't matter." You know, I said, "Well, it's the quality of the program." "No, it doesn't matter. You- you're fine. We want you to do this." And would you believe I'm now doubly busy than what I was before?

Steven Bartlett 38:14 That, that period of, um, uncertainty. You get the diagnosis, the specialist says to you, "It's only gonna get worse."

Chris Kamara 38:21 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 38:24 Your career is, at that point, in speaking.

Chris Kamara 38:27 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 38:28 It's in presenting, broadcasting.

Chris Kamara 38:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 38:33 What- what did, what was that period of uncertainty like on your mental health?

Chris Kamara 38:39 Um, it was a, an acceptance really, 'cause what I said to my wife is, "If I wasn't a broadcaster, it wouldn't matter, would it?" And so she said, "Yeah." You know? So I said, you know, "Now's the time, but a great time." Spoke to my agent, Simon Dent, said, "Look, I'm getting out of all this." And he said, "Yeah, you can. Yeah, don't worry. I'll leave it up to you." And, uh, yeah, I thought, "That's it. Quit. I've done my time." And I'd like to thank all the people that have been persistent and said, "Look, a 25% Cammy is, you know, still better than some people." You know?

Steven Bartlett 39:39 And Sky saw you on that show forever-

Chris Kamara 39:43 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:44 ... um, presenting and bringing, you know, insights and wisdom and laughs and, um, all of that to the show. I also watched the tribute, um, that Jeff, Jeff did f- when you left.

Chris Kamara 39:57 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:57 What was that like, having to, to speak to, to Jeff and, and the rest of the lads-

Chris Kamara 40:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:02 ... and tell them that you were departing and for the reason?

Chris Kamara 40:04 Um, well, Jeff's a really close pal, and he knew there'd been something going on for a while. And he kept saying to me, "Are you all right?" And I said, "Yeah, I'm fine, Jeff. Don't worry, I'm fine." H- he said, "Well, you know, yeah, what's going on?" So I said, "Oh, I just had a couple of bad days and stuff, but I'll be fine on Saturday." Then he'd send me a text saying, "You're not fine again?" "No," I said, "I'll be all right next week or whatever." But, yeah, you can't pull the wool over people's eyes who know you real well. And, uh, he was great, you know? The tribute that Sky gave me, which, like I said, was the right time to leave there. Uh, I cried when he cried on the show. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:00 I've never seen him cry before.

Chris Kamara 41:01 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:03 It was a really, um-

Chris Kamara 41:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:04 ... beautiful, powerful moment. Um, since then, you've, uh, y- in your own words, you've really thrown the kitchen sink, I think is the quote-

Chris Kamara 41:14 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 41:15 ... at, at, um, the apraxia. And, and can you talk to me about what you've done since to, to, um, mitigate the impact of the, um, condition on you and your life and your career?

Chris Kamara 41:30 Yeah. The, um, the day I went on, uh, GMB and spoke to Ben Shephard, um, and Kate, um, the... I got a phone call immediately from a fella that I knew-ish, uh, a fella called Winfred Dawes. And, uh-

Steven Bartlett 41:54 Mm-hmm.

Chris Kamara 41:55 ... he said, uh, "I can cure you." You know? "I know there's people out there that'll help, uh, to get you right." So, he said, uh, "I want you to come and meet, uh, Professor Nicholson down at Sheffield University." So I said, "Okay." So I met Winfred and the professor. Anyway, between them, they were saying, "You need to kickstart your cerebellum, which is in the back of the brain. Uh, what's happened is, uh, it's shut down."... so we need to get the jump leads out, start it again, and get your brain going, uh, get your speech going. And, uh, there are various ways to do that. Uh, (sniffs) um, so, uh, so I said, "Yeah, what are those? I'll do a- absolutely anything, yeah, to try and get it right." (sniffs) So, uh, he got, um, Zing Performance, which is really, uh, exercises for stroke victims, but it's helped my balance. Uh, ARC Performance, which is microcurrents going through my body. I still... I have a tag on my ankle now-

Steven Bartlett 43:26 Mm-hmm.

Chris Kamara 43:26 ... with those microcurrents going through.

Steven Bartlett 43:29 S- all the time?

Chris Kamara 43:30 Yeah, all the time. Yeah. Uh, for seven hours every day. Um-

Steven Bartlett 43:36 And it's helped?

Chris Kamara 43:38 Yeah. It's helped, you know. I'm, I wouldn't say I'm more than 60% the old me, but, you know, I was 20%, you know. So I've gone up 40%. For a, uh, hyperbaric, uh, tent, you know, with the oxygen. He recommended I do that. And I see a therapist, uh, who helps with the speech and helped my anxiety. Working for Sky, um, became very difficult, you know. Before I, uh, even, uh, came out and said, "I've got it," my heart would beat like mad before they came to me at Sky. (sighs) Oh, the anxiety was terrible because I was (sniffs) knowing I wasn't the old me. So I went to see him and he said, "Look, I can cure that. The other problem, the apraxia is a biological condition, so I can't help with that. But we'll try, you know, and see if we can get you through things." So getting rid of the anxiety helped me finish work, or the work I had stacked up: UK Strongest Man, The Game, Shire TV, uh, all those shows, Cash in the Attic, I Present. Um, so they helped me do that. Um, (sniffs) and, uh, all those, um, treatments. You know, I'm taking so many vitamins these days, and, uh, (sniffs) I've just been introduced by Winifred, uh, to a, the, uh, best neurologi- neurologist in America. And he said because I have good days, there's no reason why I can't be cured. So I've sent off a load of blood tests and everything to America, and I'm just waiting on the results.

Steven Bartlett 45:59 How, how is life for you now? You've been through a v- a journey-

Chris Kamara 46:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:03 ... you know?

Chris Kamara 46:03 Strange.

Steven Bartlett 46:04 Where are you in, in that journey now?

Chris Kamara 46:06 Strange, uh, strange in terms of, (sniffs) I feel a fraud now in terms of broadcasting. I don't bring to the table what I used to, uh, so that's hard. Uh, my life away from the screen couldn't be any better, you know, grandkids, you know, family, uh, it's, uh, you know, it's perfect. Unique. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 46:37 You feel a fraud?

Chris Kamara 46:39 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 46:44 Because you, because you...

Chris Kamara 46:47 I feel like I'm doing these programs and, and they're not getting the best of me, but they're tolerating me, you know? Mm-hmm. That's how it feels. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:04 I mean, who am I to say, but, um, you know, I, I think what y- what they told you about, y- as you said, 25% of you is better than pretty much everyone else.

Chris Kamara 47:15 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:16 You know, I've, you, you've brought so much joy to my life growing up, made me love the game more, made me understand the game more. You've made it hilarious. I mean, you know that. You're, you're loved more than anyone I've ever seen on the screen. So- and you've earned that. That's a skill. It's something I couldn't do.

Chris Kamara 47:29 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:30 I wouldn't know how to do a, a sliver of what you do. So I don't think that, um... I suspect that fear is, is not as logical as you think it is-

Chris Kamara 47:38 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:39 ... that you're a fraud. I mean that as well, like, I could never do what you do. I couldn't do a- of 10% of what you do.

Chris Kamara 47:45 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 47:46 So, um, you know...

Chris Kamara 47:51 (smacks lips) It's like anything else, you take it for granted, your old self. You do things, you know. Uh, that tribute that Sky gave me, that's reserved for someone who passes away, isn't it, you know? So I've had the tribute while I'm still alive, uh, that people don't get when they go. Uh, you always look back and think, you read the obituaries and the comments and think, "Why didn't people say that?" You know. So I think maybe I should have bowed out then, you know, and taken the accolades and said, "Thank you." (sniffs) You know. Am I tarnishing what I've got, what I had?

Steven Bartlett 48:45 Mm-hmm.But I, but I think, um, my rebuttal to that, if I may, is that you're, you're serving the world in a very important way now still. Even by having this conversation and being vulnerable and open, you are serving hundreds of thousands of people, thousands and thousands of people, in a complete and entirely different way, that are suffering-

Chris Kamara 49:09 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:10 ... with, with various conditions, whether it's, you know, as you've said, post-stroke victims, or whether it's apraxia or other things, and they're struggling with the same self-doubt. It's funny, like, our missions just change over our lives, right? Like, so your first missions was in football, and then you became a manager, then you did broadcasting, and now this chapter of your life is just a different chapter.

Chris Kamara 49:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:29 You're still, you know, a wondrous broadcaster-

Chris Kamara 49:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 49:32 ... but you're serving people in a completely other way, probab- maybe arguably even in a more important way.

Chris Kamara 49:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 49:37 See what I mean?

Chris Kamara 49:38 Yeah. I do. Yeah. It's funny, I did the ITV games, and a YouTuber was called Yung Filly. I'd never met him before. But he's on the first show, and he sees me before we go broadcasting, and he comes over and he starts doing that. He went, "You're a god." I went, "What? W- you know?" "I'm Yung Filly. Pleased to meet you. Oh, y- do you know what an icon you are for Black people?" I went, "Nah, don't be daft." He went, "You're a, you're a trailblazer, you know? You did TV before diversity, you know? How did you get into TV when you, you know, on Sky Sports, and there was no Black people around and all that sort of stuff? You're an, an icon." And I went, "No, I don't see myself as that." And he went, "Well, you've been my inspiration." So it makes you feel good for a second.

Steven Bartlett 50:46 That's worth it, right?

Chris Kamara 50:47 Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:49 And that alone, that, that thought that you're inspiring people just by having this conversation, and by sharing your story and being honest and not running into the shadows, as you could-

Chris Kamara 50:59 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 50:59 ... have very easily done-

Chris Kamara 51:00 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:02 ... is gonna help that. And you'll probably never get to meet them like you got to meet Yung Filly.

Chris Kamara 51:07 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:07 But that's got to be worth it, right?

Chris Kamara 51:09 Yeah. Yeah. It was... I didn't believe him, but (laughs) yeah-

Steven Bartlett 51:14 (laughs)

Chris Kamara 51:14 ... it was nice. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 51:15 He's got no reason to lie, though, has he?

Chris Kamara 51:16 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 51:16 Do you know what I mean? Quick one. As you might know, Crafted are one of the sponsors of this podcast, and Crafted are a jewelry brand, and they make really meaningful pieces of jewelry. And this piece by Crafted, when I put it on, for me it represents courage, it represents ambition, it represents being calm and loving and respectful and nurturing, while also being the antithesis of that, seemingly the antithesis of that, which is, um, sometimes a little bit aggressive with my goals, and determined and courageous and brave. The really wonderful thing about Crafted Jewelry is it's super affordable, it looks amazing, the pieces hold tremendous meaning, and they are really

Steven Bartlett 51:55 well made. This next, uh, this next chapter-

Chris Kamara 51:58 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 51:59 ... what, what, what do you want it to be full of?

Chris Kamara 52:04 My life has changed, uh, in terms of grandkids. You know, material things don't matter anymore. Um, uh, the love you have for, you know, your kids' kids, uh, is something else. So, you know, I'm one of those now. Even though I'm still working, my main priority is spending time with them.

Steven Bartlett 52:36 What advice would you give me?

Steven Bartlett 52:40 You know, I just turned 30-

Chris Kamara 52:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 52:42 ... last week. What advice-

Chris Kamara 52:44 I-

Steven Bartlett 52:44 ... would you give me?

Chris Kamara 52:45 I say it to everyone, work hard and you'll succeed. Don't ever turn down work, don't ever say on a job, "Oh, this is hard, I don't like it anymore, I can't do this." Do it, do it, and do it to the best of your ability, and see where it takes you, you know? TV is one of those jobs, I think, where if you work hard enough, you'll succeed. In football that's not the case, you know? I've grown up in football, and you... Sometimes a lucky break is better than working hard, even. You've still got to work hard, but you need breaks. And of course you need breaks in TV, but if you work hard, I think you get them. I started off at Sky, and so, uh, people say, "How did you get into Sky in 1998?" Well, initially, uh, I was a pundit for 'em. Um, I was lucky, fortunate. The first broadcast of the, uh, Football League was Sunderland versus Sheffield United at Sheffield, and they rang me. I was manager of the month with Bradford, yeah, uh, August. We won four games and drew one. And they called me and said, "Would you come and be the pundit?" So I said, "Yeah, Sheffield down the road from me." And they said, "No, you've got to come into Sky, uh, in West London." So I came all the way down. Marcus Buckland, the presenter, it was his first day, and it was a double-header, six hours of TV.... obviously ads in between and all that sort of stuff, halftime, uh, and that. And Gerry Francis was doing the second game. So that's where fate took a hand. Uh, I did the first game, Sunderland won at Sheffield, and Gerry Francis got stuck on the M4. So I did the doubleheader.

Steven Bartlett 55:11 Mm-hmm.

Chris Kamara 55:11 So from doing six hours of TV, I became the go-to guy then for Sky. "So a live game, are you a- available?" Like, "Yeah, I'll come down and do it." And I did that. And then when I got the sack from Bradford, they asked would I like a contract? And I said, "No, but I'd like to keep my face in the shop window." So I did one broadcast and then Stoke came along, uh, and I got that job. (smacks lips) And then, uh, that job turned sour pretty quickly after three months. And, uh, then I just fell straight into Sky, their broadcasting. And, uh, so eventually, um, the 1999, um, the producer of Soccer Saturday said, "Would you like to come and join the team?" Uh, so I said, "Yeah." So he went, "Would you like to do some features for us?" So I would actually go and train with teams, Premier League teams. You know, can you cannot imagine in a million years that they let you in and train with the players these days. But I did that back in the day, 1999. So I'd go and train, joining the training with them, interview the managers and the players, shoot the... And then I went and edited those pieces-

Steven Bartlett 56:52 Hm.

Chris Kamara 56:53 ... because I didn't want someone saying, "Oh yeah, it's fine." But, you know, the hard work is done by the editor. So I would-

Steven Bartlett 57:02 Hm.

Chris Kamara 57:02 ... sit myself in a studio, uh, uh, and sometimes it took six, seven hours for a four-minute piece to edit it down. But I thought, "Right, I don't want anyone saying it's

Steven Bartlett 57:18 (laughs)

Chris Kamara 57:18 ... thereby for all hard work." Uh, and if you do that and people see that, uh, uh, it'll help, not in all cases, but in most cases.

Steven Bartlett 57:31 That was the very start of what would go on to be a legendary career in the media. Um...

Chris Kamara 57:35 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:36 I, when you look, so you've given me one reason there as to why you're successful, which is just the hard work and saying yes.

Chris Kamara 57:41 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 57:43 But the media business is also, it's much more complex than that, in the sense that hard work, as you say, it's like a, you definitely need to do it. But what was it about you, do you think, that set you apart as a, as a, in the media industry, as a broadcaster?

Chris Kamara 57:59 I don't know that. I'm still baffled by that. I went to Ian Condren's, uh, 40th anniversary with his wife. He was, Ian was the producer of Soccer Saturday who gave me the job. And, uh, I said, "Why?" You know, "I'd seen you on, doing other programs punditry and thought you'd be great for our show." He said, uh, you know, "Took a chance with you and, uh, and it works." Uh-

Steven Bartlett 58:36 For 20 years.

Chris Kamara 58:37 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:37 You must n- you must have a suspicion.

Chris Kamara 58:40 No, no, not at all. You know, I'm, I was allowed to be just me, so I didn't have to work at it like I had to work at editing those pieces together, you know, the training, playing, uh, interviewing the managers all came natural. Yeah. It was that hard work that I wanted to prove that I could do. Um, but no, I was fortunate, uh, it was just me. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 59:13 Anne,

Steven Bartlett 59:16 when did you meet Anne?

Chris Kamara 59:18 (smacks lips) Uh, we met (laughs) , uh, when I was at Swindon, uh, I got transferred from, uh, Portsmouth to Swindon, my first ever transfer. And, uh, in 1978.

Steven Bartlett 59:40 1978.

Chris Kamara 59:41 Yeah, 1978. And, uh, we actually played Portsmouth, my first game, uh, for Swindon was at home to Portsmouth and, um, uh, yeah, I had to have a police escort to the game. Um, the, uh, club had been informed by the intelligence that the National Front... 'cause Portsmouth had 200 National Front supporters.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:17 National Front is this racist organization from-

Chris Kamara 1:00:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:20 ... couple of decades ago.

Chris Kamara 1:00:21 Yeah. So they'd got wind that they were gonna do me in, you know. Um, so, uh, you know, when I played for Pompey, there was a small section of fans that booed you onto the pitch because of your color and booed you off, you know, but like I said, back in those days, I didn't care. Not one jot, you know, and I didn't care when they said about this, you know, "You're gonna be null and..."And I said, "Oh, it's just a threat. Don't worry about it." But the police intelligence said, "No, we need to pick you up and, uh, take you to the game and drop you back home." So I did, and, uh-

Steven Bartlett 1:01:11 You scored.

Chris Kamara 1:01:11 ... went to the... Yeah, after 10 minutes.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:14 (laughs)

Chris Kamara 1:01:15 And not like today, uh, where people don't celebrate. Uh, of course, stupid me, you know, with that, this death threat goes straight 'cause I scored in the end where the Pompey fans were (laughs) and, uh, gave it all that. Uh, so, uh, so yeah, no. So, uh, the police escort wanted to take me back to my digs but I said, "No, leave it now, it's fine." And, uh, one of my teammates, Kenny Stroud, uh, his wife Linda was with, uh, this girl called Anne. Uh, and, uh, I asked her out, and, you know, 40 years later, or 43, uh, years later, we're still together.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:10 What a journey it's been-

Chris Kamara 1:02:11 Mmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:12 ... with Anne.

Chris Kamara 1:02:14 A long journey, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:16 What does she mean to you?

Chris Kamara 1:02:18 Uh, everything, you know. It's h- You take wives for granted, or I did, you know, I can't speak for everyone else. Um, but it's only when you have a problem like this, 'cause, you know, I just live for today, you know. I'm fine, I'm, you know, I'm no problems, don't worry about me. It's on... It's when you have a problem, um, that you have to, you know, look at your closest ones and see what they do for you, and how they react to what you're going through which, you know, is difficult. And then you feel sad about, you know, not sharing things before and keeping things away from...

Steven Bartlett 1:03:15 How did she react to all of this?

Chris Kamara 1:03:18 Um, she, she said she thought for a while, she didn't say anything, she said she thought, uh, for a while that there was something not quite right, but she couldn't put her finger on it. And she's been my rock, you know. Now, you know, I don't, I don't hardly, you know... This is the longest I've spoken to anybody for a long time, you know. And you'll probably see when you edit this tape, sometimes it's slow, sometimes it's coming out okay, now it's coming out okay and it feels fine, you know. And that's all to do with the mind. Maybe I'm talking about a good thing now with Anne, so it's fine and it's free. Uh, so yeah, she's, you know, she's taken the weight, uh, heavy weight off my shoulders and, you know, allowed me to do what I do, to continue doing what I'm doing if I wanna do it. But she does say from time to time, "You're allowed to say no to these jobs that Simon rings up and asks me to do." Uh, but I don't like to let anyone down.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:50 You know, I think it's, it's worth saying that I think this, this has been a really, really great conversation. Um, and, uh, I'm actually quite surprised to hear that, of, of how much you struggled previously based on the, we, the conversation we've had today.

Chris Kamara 1:05:04 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:05 Because I don't... Um, had I, I don't know if I'm speaking out of turn here, but had I not known about the, um, the condition, this would've been a perfectly normal conversation on this con- on this podcast, so it's really, really interesting and enlightening to, to, to learn more about it. And, uh, I, yeah, I can't imagine as, from a family's perspective as well, going through that journey with their father where you're trying to find answers, you find answers, and then there's that whole s- sort of therapy process to-

Chris Kamara 1:05:34 Mmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:34 ... get you back to where you are and the mental health journey that takes us on, which we've not really talked about in detail. But there's the curing the, the condition but then there's, like, living with the cost of the shift, the tectonic shift in your life.

Chris Kamara 1:05:47 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:48 Um...

Chris Kamara 1:05:49 It consumes your mind, or it has done mine. So every day I wake up, the first thing I think, "Am I gonna be able to talk today?" You know. So immediately I wake up, I'll go in the bathroom and I'll look in the mirror and say a few words and it's fine, or I think it's fine. The perception is fine in my head. And then I'll go downstairs and talk to Anne, and all of a sudden that pathway is restricted and, "Oh God, not again today." You know? And that's been hard to get my head around. And my therapist, uh, Daniel, he says, "You're exaggerating it in your mind, you know, that's the problem because you've never had to think about your speech, now you're thinking and you're overthinking." So even though, like you've said, it seems fine to you, in my head I know that it's slower than...... w- it would've been had we spoken three years ago. Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:05 And the, the cognition part, the thoughts, they're, they're still the same?

Chris Kamara 1:07:08 Oh. Yeah. They're, they're lightning quick. Yeah. They're fine. So, uh, uh, they're there in terms of speech. But I have days where if you're out and about or, uh, even indoors, there's nothing in the brain area. So, you know, whereas I could normally go into a room, did it all the time, speak to everyone, have a laugh, that was the first thing on my mind. Now, that part of it is hard work, and it feels hard work, and it feels a struggle, and it doesn't feel natural. That's the worst thing. So I tend not to do it very often, you know, unless I'm feeling good. I've, you know, uh, spoken to someone else and I can tell it's fluid, uh, the voice, then I'll go in a room and be myself again. Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:17 Chris, we have a closing tradition on this podcast-

Chris Kamara 1:08:19 Yes.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:20 ... where the, um, last guest asks a question for the next guest. They don't know who they're writing it for.

Chris Kamara 1:08:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:26 And they'll never find out. Um, although I have said their name earlier on, so you might be able to figure it out. (laughs)

Chris Kamara 1:08:33 Right. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:08:34 (laughs) But, um, the question they've written for you is... I'm gonna read it verbatim. What has been the most happiest moment of your life... full stop, brought you the most joy, and why?

Chris Kamara 1:08:57 Uh, is that kids aside or is it including-

Steven Bartlett 1:09:01 Let's say kids aside 'cause that's-

Chris Kamara 1:09:02 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:02 Yeah.

Chris Kamara 1:09:03 Yeah. Kids aside, uh, achieving my ambition and my dream. Yeah. Uh, I can, you know, as a young Black kid playing on the fields round where I lived thinking that one day I'll play at Ayresome Park for Middlesbrough and Elland Road for Leeds, uh, it's blown my mind away, you know? Uh, ambition and dream achieved.

Steven Bartlett 1:09:40 Chris, thank you. I, um, I have no doubt that your ambitions and dreams are, are just getting started because you have all of the, the core, the minerals that are r- it, are required to achieve pretty much anything, and you've shown that your life has been a testament to that, even in the face of great adversity. Thank you. I thank you not just for myself and for you giving me your time today. But, um, I don't think you realize how many people you're going to help in a really important profound way, how much pain you're going to alleviate from them, how you're going to make them feel seen and understood just by doing this today, and just by not hiding in the shadows.

Chris Kamara 1:10:12 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:13 So thank you. And thank you for all the joy-

Chris Kamara 1:10:14 Thank you.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:14 ... you've brought me.

Chris Kamara 1:10:15 Aw, thanks.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:15 You've made football fun. You've made it, um, made me understand the game better over the course of p- pretty much my entire life. Um, so I'm, for one, I'm so glad that I still get to see you on the screens-

Chris Kamara 1:10:26 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:26 ... and I hope to see you a lot more. I know you've got a show, Ninja Warrior UK: Race For Glory-

Chris Kamara 1:10:30 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:10:30 ... um, which is airing on ITV, which I'm very excited about watching as well.

Chris Kamara 1:10:34 Yeah. I'm so glad I did it. You know, I tried to pull out when they rang me and said, "Uh, we've been commissioned for series seven." I went, "Oh, no." And they went, "What do you mean oh, no?" And I went, "Oh, no, you're not getting the old Kenny." And they said, "Oh, don't worry about it." And, uh, I've watched a bit of the first episode, and even though it don't sound like me, it's passable, you know. So, yeah, I hope people enjoy it.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:10 Well, as you said, 25% of you is better than pretty much most-

Chris Kamara 1:11:13 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 1:11:13 ... anyone else so w- we'll take that. Thank you so much, Chris.

Chris Kamara 1:11:16 Thanks steve.

Steven Bartlett 1:11:16 An honor. (instrumental music plays) I had a few words to say about one of my sponsors on this podcast. For many years people have been asking for a coffee-flavored Huel, and quite recently Huel released the iced coffee caramel flavor of their, um, ready-to-drink Huels, and I've just become hooked on it over the last couple of weeks. I've been on a really interesting journey with Huel, which I've described and talked about a little bit on this podcast. I started with the berry ready-to-drinks. Then I moved over to the protein salted caramel because it's 100 calories and it gives you all of your essential vitamins and minerals, but also gives you the 20 odd grams of protein you need. And now I'm balanced between them both. I drink mostly the banana flavor ready-to-drink. I've got really into the iced coffee caramel, um, flavor of, of Huel's ready-to-drink, and now I'm drinking that as well as the protein. Make sure you try the new ready-to-drink flavors. The, the caramel flavor is amazing. The, um, new banana flavor as well is amazing, and obviously, as I said, the iced coffee caramel flavor has been a real smash hit. So check it out. Let me know what you think on social media. I see all of your tags and Instagram posts and tweets about Huel. (instrumental music plays)