Codie Sanchez: Boring businesses beat your paycheck

Steven Bartlett 0:00 Can I get rich if I just have a salary?

Codie Sanchez 0:02 Yeah. If you wanna make a couple of million dollars, 100%.

Steven Bartlett 0:05 And can everybody do that?

Codie Sanchez 0:06 Yes. It's only not accessible to you if you're a lazy piece of (beep) who wants to do nothing. But none of this is rocket science.

Steven Bartlett 0:12 What do you do?

Codie Sanchez 0:13 So start with- Cody Sanchez has taken her experience from Wall Street to become a multimillionaire, investor, and business owner.

Steven Bartlett 0:19 And now teaches millions of people how to make money and be financially free. Cody, if I set you the challenge of building your wealth from scratch, what do you do?

Codie Sanchez 0:28 Okay. Step one, get with the biggest, badass guy or gal you can find who's already successful and you do everything possible to provide value to them. And by the way, it sucks. But the best advice for a 20-year-old is to realize that your 20s do suck. But everybody focuses on how much money you make and start doing entrepreneurship too early. No, you're gonna be a 20-year-old and drive a Bugatti and play around with crypto. Huge mistake. Focus on learning. And you're gonna have no time for anything except what your boss asks of you. But if you wanna win and be successful in life, upfront pain always leads to long-term gain.

Steven Bartlett 0:59 How could I manipulate and motivate you into giving me a shot?

Codie Sanchez 1:02 If you wanna get in front of a rich powerful person, start with...

Steven Bartlett 1:06 Where do you go from there?

Codie Sanchez 1:07 Make as much money as humanly possible from your salary and invest in other side deals such as what I call gateway drug businesses. The business so simple that you can run it even if you've never run a business before.

Steven Bartlett 1:17 Uh, how can I buy a business? I'm gonna have to wait till I'm rich.

Codie Sanchez 1:21 Well, there's actually way more opportunity than anybody realizes because there's three ways to buy a business. One is...

Steven Bartlett 1:28 This is a sentence I never thought I'd say in my life. Um, we've just hit seven million subscribers on YouTube and I wanna say a huge thank you to all of you that show up here every Monday and Thursday to watch our conversations. Um, from the bottom of my heart, but also on behalf of my team who you don't always get to meet, there's almost 50 people now behind the Diary of a CEO that worked to put this together. So, from all of us, thank you so much. Um, we did a raffle last month and we gave away prizes for people that subscribed to the show up until seven million subscribers, and you guys loved that raffle so much that we're gonna continue it. So every single month we're giving away money can't buy prizes including meetings with me, invites to our events, and £1,000 gift vouchers to anyone that subscribes to the Diary of a CEO. There's now more than seven million of you. So if you make the decision to subscribe today, you can be one of those lucky people. Thank you from the bottom of my heart. Let's get to the conversation. Cody, if you could encapsulate your message into a sentence,

Steven Bartlett 2:28 what would that sentence be? But also, who exactly would that sentence be for?

Codie Sanchez 2:33 Hmm. It would be, the only way to have freedom is through ownership, and the world doesn't want to give it to you. And that message is for every human who's felt disenfranchised and is a little bit of tired of other people directing their lives and wishes that they had their hand on the helm instead. And I think in today's day and age, ownership is something that people on high say is bad. You know, fuck the big guys, the rich people, the owners. And in reality, that's just them saying they wanna be in charge instead of you.

Steven Bartlett 3:13 Who isn't your message for? Who will it just not resonate with and work for?

Codie Sanchez 3:17 BlackRock, Blackstone, (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 3:20 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 3:20 Most billionaires who already know this. I mean, I think that is the answer though. The, the message will not resonate with people who think that they should own everything and other people should ask for permission.

Steven Bartlett 3:28 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 3:29 It won't resonate with people who, um, don't wanna work kind of hard. It sucks to be an owner. Anybody who's ever run a business has felt inside that horrible feeling on Friday when you don't have enough cash and payroll's coming in and you've got to figure out what to sell or what to give up in order to pay your employees. That's an awful feeling. Um, so it's not for people that aren't willing to do the hard thing, but, you know, it kinda goes back to what, what we know to be true. It sucks being broke just as much as it sucks working hard. And so choose your heart.

Steven Bartlett 4:01 Your message has resonated really profoundly with millions and millions and millions and millions of people. You've got an audience of millions of people across all of your social media channels.

Steven Bartlett 4:09 It, it appears that you've hit culture and the zeitgeist with a particular message at a particular time. H- do you spend much time reflecting on why your message is so resonant, um, right now?

Codie Sanchez 4:19 That's interesting. It's hard right now to not think about politics in some way, shape, or form. And so I think when I think about politics today, what I really think about is who's in charge, right? And so I do think about why does one politician hit a chord, why does one not? And, and I think when I think about my message, what hits me closest to home is that for some reason, um, a message right now is, is feeling true for many people in the world that there's a lack of trust. Like, trust in institutions, trust in governments and big corporations. In, in the media. You know, I saw yesterday o- an article about CNN. This is fascinating. How many views do you think CNN got in prime time for one week, three-hour segments every day, prime time for one week in May? What do you think?

Steven Bartlett 5:16 One show?

Codie Sanchez 5:17 One show, three hours for a week.

Steven Bartlett 5:19 The cumulative of three out- three-hour show?

Codie Sanchez 5:21 Correct.

Steven Bartlett 5:22 Five million maybe? I don't know.

Codie Sanchez 5:24 83,000.

Steven Bartlett 5:26 That's crazy.

Codie Sanchez 5:27 Lowest level of all time. FOX at the highest was 186,000. Think about what is happening right in front of us. The media is no longer actually reaching the masses because they've lost complete trust with them. In fact, 30-year-olds right now for the first time ever, 30-year-olds have more trust in you, social media influencers, than they do the mainstream media. It's not the same for all age groups. But that is what I am seeing right in front of us, is we're like, "Show me what's real because I do not trust puppets who parrot things from teleprompters." They know that you and I are having a real conversation. There's no teleprompter in sight. When you look at your notes, you look at your notes. It's real. And I think that is what I'm realizing with our message. We have to be honest because nobody trusts anybody right now.

Steven Bartlett 6:09 So if someone's just clicked onto this conversation-... for whatever reason, maybe they don't know who you are, maybe they- they, you know, they're just clicking because

Steven Bartlett 6:16 they, it's the routine that they have. By the end of this conversation, what do you hope they come away with? What do you hope they're gonna be able to, um, implement into their lives following this conversation?

Codie Sanchez 6:25 How to make more money and why it matters that you make more money. That's really it, 'cause I think money is just a tool. It's a tool in your toolbox for you to be able to have more freedom, to do more things, and to say no more often, and to say, "Actually, I don't want to do that at all, and because I don't want to do that, I need money to push back." And so by the end of this conversation, I think you should have a few ideas to be a little bit richer and a little bit more free.

Steven Bartlett 6:46 And can everybody do that? Do you- do you genuinely believe-

Codie Sanchez 6:48 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 6:48 ... that every... Think about everybody you've ever, you know and everybody you've- you've ever met. Does the advice that you offer-

Codie Sanchez 6:54 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 6:54 ... um, fit all of them? Is it accessible and actionable for all of them?

Codie Sanchez 6:59 My gut says yes. It's only not accessible to you if you're a lazy piece of shit that wants (laughs) to do nothing. You know, if you really want only to be given things and you wanna ask for permission all the time, and you aren't willing to work a little bit earlier in the morning and work a little bit later in the evening, then you should turn this off. Just, like, I don't know what... They're probably not watching you anyway-

Steven Bartlett 7:21 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 7:21 ... if that's this type of human. That's not you guys. But for that type of h- human, this isn't gonna work 'cause nothing that I offer is get rich quick or go- go buy this stock. That's not gonna work. Um, but it is things that I think we knew early on somehow, we got maybe lucky with a few mentors, but none of this is rocket science, which should be really freeing for people to listen to.

Steven Bartlett 7:43 And who are you?

Codie Sanchez 7:44 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:46 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 7:46 Existential question. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 7:48 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 7:48 Um, you know, I'm

Codie Sanchez 7:50 a former finance investor for 15 plus years, investment banking, asset management, who finally, because COVID happened, took a little breather, realized that I didn't wanna be like the managing directors that I saw all around me, and started writing stuff online because I wasn't doing road shows, selling investments, and investing people's money for- for a year or whatever that was. And because of that, started writing about the things that I do. And I kind of thought nobody liked the idea of owning laundromats and car washes and all of that, and it turns out a lot of people thought that was interesting. And I do think we kind of hit this zeitgeist of, you know, you saw it during COVID, people left big cities, right? They're- they bought houses in Cape Town or somewhere out in rural areas, right? They got away from the corporate job, in office, in suits and realized, "God, I don't want a 75-minute commute. I, uh, maybe want a little bit of fresh air, um, into chicken coops." Lot of chicken coops these days. And, um, and so because of that, they got interested in these small businesses, these community businesses. And so I think I got a little bit lucky in the fact that that was interesting to me, I've done it for years, I've invested in those things forever, I started writing about it on the internet, and then we got a lot of views. And now all of a sudden, there are millions of people that talk about buying these small businesses or what we call boring businesses.

Steven Bartlett 9:13 I wanna get into that, but I, um, I wanna start with something that I saw the other day on your Instagram. You wrote a post about your 20s and your earlier

Steven Bartlett 9:20 life. You said you think that your 20s suck and that no one tells you that when you hit 30, you become happier, and you offered sort of 32 pieces of advice for people that are, um, in that phase of life. Uh, focusing on- in on your 20s, with the benefit of hindsight now-

Codie Sanchez 9:36 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 9:36 ... when you think about how you played your 20s and how you'd s- suggest that maybe a child you have someday or a friend that is 20 years old should play their 20s, what is the best advice for a 20-year-old?

Codie Sanchez 9:47 The best advice for a 20-year-old is to realize that your 20s do suck, that you are probably drinking too much, you're hanging out with people that aren't the best versions of themselves, neither are you, you've got crazy hormones going on, you're going to bars and hanging out with people, having a few too too many drinks, and then going to a job you kind of hate because you're brand new into the workforce, and so, of course, you're doing the worst thing humanly possible. And that's gonna continue for, like, five to 10 years. Like, you are going to do a $65,000-a-year job for two or three years that sucks, and you're gonna have no time for anything except what your boss asks of you. And I wish people had told me that because if you see the light at the end of the tunnel, you're like, "Oh, okay. Like, I can do this for two or three years. I can learn, I can grow, and I can suck it up for two to three years, and then after that I get a little bit better and a little bit better and a little bit better." Um, and so the advice would be when you have a foot in your nail, which is what it's like when you start your first job being 20, don't, you know, try to ignore the fact that it's painful. It's there. Like, it's there, it's real, it sucks. And I wish somebody had told me that because these days everybody's like, "Oh, you can be a 20-year-old and drive a Bugatti and, you know, I don't know, play around with crypto." Not real. Not real. And then once I learned like, okay, this sucks and I can deal with it, then the next thing would be everybody focuses on how much money you make when you're in your 20s. Huge mistake. The only thing you should focus on is learning. How can I think about my salary like putting pieces of cash into my brain? How can I learn as much as possible? How can I come and work and apprentice for somebody that I think I might want their life one day and I'll take the minimum amount of cash that I need in order to fill my brain so that my next step can be to make more money? But in the beginning, too many people obsess on money, and I wish I hadn't thought that way. I would rather learn than earn when I'm young.

Steven Bartlett 11:34 Do you think there's a different, uh, amount of work and work ethic required in- in different seasons of life? So in your 20s,

Steven Bartlett 11:41 should you be working harder than when you're, say, 30, 40, 50?

Codie Sanchez 11:44 100%. You can't have the same stab- stamina. I mean, I, you know, I was weightlifting the other day and I was showing my less strong friend next to me like, "This is how you do a deadlift, and here's when I put another plate on there," and then, you know, blew out my hip, you know? (laughs) And I'm like, now I'm in, like, back pain, and, you know, I'm 37. I c- I do not have the same stamina I had when I was 25. Physically, you decline, mentally dec- you decline, and I think your work ethic declines too. And so, you know, you... It's really hard to keep going for 20 years at-... 12-hour-long days. You can do it, but it's much easier when you're 20. And so if you know that, then know, let's front load the pain so that in my 30s we can have a lot of fun. You know, my husband, who you, who you met, is a former Navy SEAL, and we always talk about how, I think the only reason we're kinda successful is we just said, "What are the worst jobs we can take when we're young where we can learn the most, we can, hopefully, I think, have something that's a resume-builder." And then once we're in our mid-20s to late 20s, we can start reaping the fruits of our labor. But you know, being a Navy SEAL sucks. You do it when you're young, you do all the worst things when you're young, but then for the rest of your life, you're a fucking former Navy SEAL. You're set. Because you front-loaded the pain.

Steven Bartlett 12:58 When you look back over your career, do you, um... Can you identify any sort of light bulb moments where you were exposed to

Steven Bartlett 13:05 information that caused a bit of a paradigm shift a- as, as it relates to how you think about wealth? 'Cause I, I had a, I've had a couple of moments, and you know, to varying degrees, but some real standout moments where I saw someone operate. I was exposed to how they made their money and how they built their wealth, and I thought, "Fuck, nobody told me this, and I had the game wrong."

Codie Sanchez 13:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:26 Uh, has there been those moments in your life?

Codie Sanchez 13:28 For sure. Um, I think the... Well, there's, there's actually, uh, studies showing something called economic interconnectedness, which basically shows that, say you have a poor neighborhood to the left and a poor neighborhood to the right, same, uh, socioeconomic status, so they both make around the same amount of money. If this neighborhood just has a few rich people in it, even though on average the neighborhoods are the same, and people in the poor neighborhood interact with rich people a little bit more on the left than they do on the right, if you go 30 years down the line, the kids that just had a few more interactions with rich people are going to be richer on average by 35% than the people in the same neighborhood to the right, except with less economic interconnectedness. And so what that tells me is, as often as possible you want to be around people who are richer than you. Sounds obvious, kind of, but I don't think it's that obvious. You don't have to live next to them. You don't have to have their money. You just want to be around them because it is contagious in some ways. Ideas are contagious. And this ability to see into the future I think is contagious. You know, if you think about it like you're driving in a car, the faster the car is going, the farther the headlights have to be able to peer into the future. Otherwise, you're going to, to blow off a cliff. And so I think when people are moving really fast, they have a lot of money and they have big risk to the things they do, th- their headlights are just a little bit farther than the rest of us. And so I got really lucky because I chose finance. Finance is full of people who are obsessed with money. I think there's a lot of, you know, ethical issues in that industry, but all around me were rich people. So I remember one instance, uh, really, really well. And that was, um, I was in Ch- I was in Chicago at the time. I was working at Goldman Sachs and, um, the head of the Chicago office was a guy by the name of Bruce. And, um, Bruce was a good guy. He ran the fixed income division. And after I left Goldman Sachs, I kinda stayed in touch with a few people there, including Bruce. Well, one day, I find out Bruce becomes the ambassador to Canada. And I was like, "Canada? I don't even know if Bruce had been to Canada. Like he's not a sp- How did that happen?" And so I started talking to a few other people and I realized, "Oh, you buy ambassadorships in the US." And so you could Google right now and see what the average ambassadorship in the US costs. The answer? It's about a million dollars directly donated to a president, plus a couple million dollars donated in a pack. So Bruce bought the ambassadorship, which I thought was fascinating. And I was like, "Shit, I didn't realize that was for sale. Like that's, you just buy those things? That's so bizarre." And that flipped my perspective entirely to realize, oh man, money really just is power. And can you imagine how wide open your ability must be for abundance if you're like, "Oh yeah, I'm gonna buy a position of authority in the world." Never even would enter my equation.

Steven Bartlett 16:16 When a lot of people think about money and they hear conversations about wealth, I think some people kinda cringe 'cause they think-

Codie Sanchez 16:21 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 16:21 ... of money as being quite an ugly thing.

Codie Sanchez 16:23 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 16:23 And, and some people think it's quite an evil thing. The, the desire to accumulate more of it, they see as being, I don't know, selfish or some, maybe even manipulative or I don't know. You know? So how, how do you square that for those people?

Codie Sanchez 16:36 I, I mean, first of all, I would just say, you're never gonna attract it if you don't like it. If you think it's evil, you're certainly not gonna make much of it. And that sounds touchy-feely and I'm from Austin and I kinda like crystals, so maybe-

Steven Bartlett 16:46 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 16:46 ... that is a little touchy-feely, but th- it's the truth of the matter. It's just like women these days who say, "All men are bad. I can't find a man. I don't like men anywhere." Do you think you're gonna find one that way?

Steven Bartlett 16:57 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 16:57 You know, if you say things like that, are you gonna be in partnership? Of course not. You're gonna repel them 'cause you don't even like them. It's the same thing with money. It's very common sense when you think about it. And so I always like to think about money as it's just that, it's that tool in your toolbox. It's like, so do I want somebody else to have the chainsaw or do I want it? Well, I'd, I'd rather have it 'cause I think I'm a good person and I think that I could help more people with it. And so people really need to lose the emotional attachment to money, especially if it's negative. Um, I think there's a lot bigger issue with too many people thinking money is bad than too many people thinking money is good. And that's weird if you think about it 'cause the opposite is usually what we're told, right?

Steven Bartlett 17:37 And in that analogy of it being like a woman looking for a man, but saying that m- men are bad, et cetera, does the woman in that analogy, but also in the analogy of money, also need to feel like she's deserving of a good man?

Codie Sanchez 17:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 17:50 I.e. do you need to feel like you're deserving of money in order to attract it? I mean, this maybe strays into things like manifestation and whatever else, but you know, do you have to feel like you deserve to be rich, do you think, in order to attract more money into your life? Does it change how you make your decisions, how you show up and negotiate?

Codie Sanchez 18:07 Certainly. I mean, I think, um...I think the truth of the matter is that if you want to attract things, the best way to get them is to be great yourself. So if you want a great partner, be a great partner, you know. If you want to be rich, you need to start doing things where you're acting rich and I don't mean by spending, but, like, what would a rich person do if they wanted to achieve X, Y, and Z? Well, they'd probably work harder, they'd surround their selves with different types of people. And, uh, but then I realized there's so many people that do not believe in themselves-

Steven Bartlett 18:38 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 18:38 ... and do have negative stories they have to break before they can take one tactic and do anything.

Steven Bartlett 18:43 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 18:44 So I think you're right. First, you gotta believe it.

Steven Bartlett 18:46 It is th- It does feel like it's really the crux of all of this stuff because, um, the evidence you have or don't have, I guess, forms what we call self-belief.

Steven Bartlett 18:53 And some people who, you know, with all the will in the world, they just can't believe in themselves because they have deeper systemic s- sort of self-esteem issues. And I guess this ties into the conversation around, like, feeling like an imposter. Um, and the reason I, I reference this is 'cause I... I remember many years ago as you were talking, a friend of mine saying that when he finally got some money, he just had a huge sense of guilt-

Codie Sanchez 19:13 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 19:13 ... because his father had worked really, really, really, really hard-

Codie Sanchez 19:17 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 19:17 ... and been paid a fraction of what he'd, the money he'd made, so he always had this sense of sort of guilt with his money like he didn't deserve it, um, like he was an imposter potentially, and a lotta people struggle with that, you know?

Codie Sanchez 19:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 19:28 What do you think is for other people?

Codie Sanchez 19:29 Yeah. I mean, I do think, like, where your body goes, your belief follows, and so... I was at this event for women and, uh, it was, like, pretty high-up people in finance and only females in the crowd, and it was the first time that I realized that a lotta people have a negative relationship with women because the, the facilitator asked everybody to close their eyes.

Steven Bartlett 19:50 With money?

Codie Sanchez 19:51 With money.

Steven Bartlett 19:52 Okay.

Codie Sanchez 19:52 So the facilitator said, "I want you to picture money. Put your eyes closed, picture money, and then have a visual representation with your body of how you feel when you hear the word money," right? So in my mind, I hear the word money, I go, "Money." Like, "Yeah, give me more of that. Like it." Big V, right? And yet when I looked and she said, "Freeze, open your eyes," and so then we open our eyes and we looked around. Could you imagine what most of these high-powered women looked like? It was like fetal position or, like, like money or, like, money or, like, money, just very small. And that's when I realized, oh, of course they're not gonna get a ton of it because that's their feeling with money. And so what she recommended that I have since done with a lot of the women that I've engaged with is say, "When, when you think about money, all I want you to do, just make a big, expressive movement with your body." Like, "Am I gonna get that salary? Yes, I am," you know. "Do I want more of it? Give it to me." And I do think your body ends up really determining how your brain functions, and Tony's talked about this and a lot of other people that have, so maybe if you don't think you deserve money, I don't know how to fix your brain right away, but I do, do know how to fix your body, which is just make a big movement that tells your body that money is good for you. Don't make a protective small movement that makes you in fear. Make a big movement that gives you into abundance. And so I... That stuck with me for a long time.

Steven Bartlett 21:18 I find it interesting as well, thinking about who talks about money.

Codie Sanchez 21:21 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 21:21 Because men talk about money a lot.

Codie Sanchez 21:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 21:23 And I don't know, I don't know if women talk about money in

Steven Bartlett 21:25 private, but I know my, my male friends are all talking about their money, their investing, their investments, et cetera, and I wondered if there's any sort of gender difference you've observed because you speak to so many people about gender differences as it relates to money.

Codie Sanchez 21:36 Well, perfect example is our audience across socials is about 60% to 65% men and I'm a woman, and yet it's actually quite hard to get women interested and engaged on these issues.

Steven Bartlett 21:49 That's so interesting.

Codie Sanchez 21:50 Mm-hmm. And so, um, you know, I think a lot of women, first of all, they think it's a little, a little cringe. Um, you know, there's not normalization of it, so, you know, you, you're... There's never a, a group where women are getting together on the 19th hole at a golf course and talking about the deals that they did that week, but it's very normal for men, right? Where would women all get together to talk about their business aspects? Like, I don't think there exists a, a container for that. And so, um, I'm big on this belief that everybody should learn how to get money, especially if you're a woman. You don't have to go be a girlboss and if you wanna stay home and take care of the kids and be a tradwife, that's amazing, but understand where your money is located, understand how it's made in your family, understand how much things cost, what you spend, um, and it is... There's nothing more fun than making your first dollar on your own. It's very liberating.

Steven Bartlett 22:44 Do you think money's seen as a masculine thing? Uh, investing, wealth creation, do you think those are all seen as masculine?

Codie Sanchez 22:52 I mean, i- investment banking is 87.6%, uh, male.

Steven Bartlett 22:57 Oh, really?

Codie Sanchez 22:58 Yeah. Um, the finance industry in general is 65% plus male, so that would tell me yes.

Steven Bartlett 23:05 Feels like a real inequality in society that the people that are working in finance are heavily male, but also finance and money is power.

Codie Sanchez 23:12 Right. Well, I mean, time in career, right? I mean, they just have had longer to have access to that industry, and so I don't think there's some big conspiracy theory happening. I think what happened is women haven't had the right to, to work for as long. Um, finance is the highest paid industry of all industries that you could go into. It's also one of the most competitive. It also has one of the highest barriers to entry, a number of licensing, graduate degrees, et cetera. It's also one of the most competitive to get into those positions, and so of course it's going to be dominated by those who have, you know, an unfair advantage from more time attempting to do this. I think if h- you know, history shows us anything recently, there's gonna be more women in it going forward.

Steven Bartlett 23:57 So if I took you back then, if I took you back to your first dollar and I took away everything that you have-

Codie Sanchez 24:02 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 24:02 ... but also I take away all of your contacts.

Codie Sanchez 24:04 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:04 You

Steven Bartlett 24:05 can keep your brain, but you can't keep your contacts, and I set you the challenge in 2024 of building your wealth from scratch. What's, what are the first things that come to mind to get you going? So you're in a studio apartment, you are broke, you have y- all the information you have, you have no contacts, what do you do?

Codie Sanchez 24:22 Am I allowed to be 20 again or do I have to be 37?

Steven Bartlett 24:23 You can be 20.

Codie Sanchez 24:24 Okay. If I'm, if I'm young and-

Steven Bartlett 24:26 Why did you ask that?

Codie Sanchez 24:28 Well, I think, um, it's easier when you're young, if we're honest. When you're young, people who have money, they see themselves in you at an earlier date. If you got that hunger, I mean, one of our rules in hiring is hire people so hungry you're scared they might bite you.

Steven Bartlett 24:44 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 24:45 (laughs) And, uh, and so when you're young, you know, you, you've had this happen. You meet a young man who's just got that fire, right? He doesn't know anything, but you can just see in him that he will do whatever it takes. He's here before you, he's here after you, he's coming up with ideas, he's doing jobs to the point where you're like, "Chill, bro, like, that's not even your job," right?

Steven Bartlett 25:05 Couple of them in here.

Codie Sanchez 25:06 Right.

Steven Bartlett 25:06 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 25:07 And what do you do with those guys? You're like, "I'm gonna help you." Why? Because actually you see yourself in them. It's like a weird, selfish father/mother thing we have. We're like, "I see you, I remember being you, I'm gonna help you." And so if you're young, what I think you do is you get with the biggest, baddest guy you can find, or gal you can find, and, who's already successful, who you think has the life that you want, and you do everything possible to provide value to them. And that's probably a bunch of sweat equity stuff that's probably a bunch of bullshit in the beginning, but it's so rare. Like, intense competence is so rare, and when you're young, I think you throw it away with these ideas of, like, quiet, quitting and not engaging. Like, that is your moment to show that fire. And then what happens is, you're only gonna need to do that for, like, a year or two with a few players, and you're gonna move quickly. Because if you are with people who have a ton of resources, what is your biggest constraint in your business right now? Is it money? Do you not have enough money? Could you raise more if you needed it?

Steven Bartlett 26:07 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 26:07 Of course. Do you need more attention? No, you get hundreds of millions of views. Do you need more ideas? Probably not.

Steven Bartlett 26:13 No.

Codie Sanchez 26:13 You got a lot of them. What do you need?

Steven Bartlett 26:14 People.

Codie Sanchez 26:15 You need people. You need hungry little ankle biters that are willing to do whatever it takes. And so people don't like this answer, but it's not like, "I would do real estate, I would do po- podcasting." It's go find a person who is so rich but willing to give you a shot for as long as you can.

Steven Bartlett 26:33 Okay, so let's zoom in on that then.

Codie Sanchez 26:34 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 26:34 Because someone's gonna hear that now and they're gonna go, "Cool, got it, Codie," and they're gonna go on LinkedIn and they're just gonna start peppering Bill

Steven Bartlett 26:40 Gates and Elon Musk, et cetera. You know what I mean? (laughs) So, let's make this a little bit (overlapping)

Codie Sanchez 26:44 (laughs) And they're like, "This didn't work."

Steven Bartlett 26:46 Yeah, yeah.

Codie Sanchez 26:46 "Codie, Elon didn't text me back."

Steven Bartlett 26:48 Yeah. So, so when I'm thinking about reaching out...

Codie Sanchez 26:50 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 26:50 ... to these individuals that are powerful, and I guess we could frame it in the context of you, you're a very powerful woman. You've got lots of opportunities and probably less time, um, than opportunities. So how would I get to Codie?

Codie Sanchez 27:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 27:04 How could I manipulate you or motivate you into giving me a shot?

Codie Sanchez 27:08 Yeah. Let's talk about two things. One, if you want to get in front of a rich, powerful person, start with concentric circles. So start with what's closest to you. So for instance, who's the richest guy on your block? Who's the richest guy in your community? Who's the richest guy that you can get to, or gal you can get to?

Steven Bartlett 27:26 No one.

Codie Sanchez 27:26 Start there.

Steven Bartlett 27:26 There's no one there.

Codie Sanchez 27:27 There's no way, first of all. You're like-

Steven Bartlett 27:29 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 27:29 ... seven degrees to Kevin Bacon, right?

Steven Bartlett 27:31 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 27:31 So what I would say is, it's just a numbers game. There's somebody, maybe they're only making a couple 100K a year, but that's, like, way more than you could ever imagine. Start there.

Steven Bartlett 27:41 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 27:42 So that would be my first point. And I think about that, like, you know, for instance, you go to school. So everybody goes to school in some way, shape, or form. Who do you know who also goes to your school who is the richest kid at your school? Can you get to their dad or their mom, right? So try to get to who's closest to you that you can physically touch and you can actually engage with that human. I would start there because it's lower stakes. So one, if the richest guy on your block or in your college, uh, that's a friend of your, you know, that's a dad of one of your friends owns a big sprinkler company that makes a couple million dollars a year, start working with that. And while you're there, give yourself a deadline, six months or a year learning at this level, and then level up. Who's now the richest person times 2X you can get to? I think the biggest problem is people confuse fame with, with being rich. They go after you and I. We're not the richest people. I mean, we do pretty good, but, like, we're not the richest. And by the way, who has more competition? Everybody's in your and my email inboxes just 'cause we have a lot of, of followers. I would never go to an influencer and try to play this game. I would go to the guy who runs a sprinkler company that nobody is talking to at all, but he makes a ton of money. And then you, you cozy up to this guy and you go, "This is incredible. What do you do? You did this with sprinklers? How much does your company make? Whoa, I wanna be like you one day. Can I intern for you or apprentice for you? I'll do whatever you want." Do you know what that is gonna feel like to a guy like that as opposed to me or you? We're gonna be like, "I don't have time, I have too many interns." So go where the water is the shallowest, is what I would start with.

Steven Bartlett 29:17 It's so true, because I, I'm sure both of us get just hundreds and thousands of, um, messages a year of people lit- and literally will stop me outside my office and say... I remember this kid the other day, it was about a week ago, stopped me outside of our new office and said, um, he was stood outside there and he had his, like, CV in a little binder, and he was like, "I will come in and I will just clean the floor." And I'm s- that's not a great pitch.

Codie Sanchez 29:39 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 29:40 Because I, obviously I can't do that.

Codie Sanchez 29:42 Uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 29:43 I can't have someone come into my company unpaid.

Codie Sanchez 29:46 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:46 Which is gonna cause a whole PR disaster when that leaks out-

Codie Sanchez 29:48 Of course.

Steven Bartlett 29:48 ... into the press, et cetera, but I wouldn't anyway. Um, and you're, I don't know what, what it was about that, but that doesn't necessarily make me think that you are tremendously valuable. (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 29:58 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 29:58 If you're coming in and offering to make the tea and clean the floor, personally. That's why I'm so compelled by what it is in that initial message that sometimes, in your case, will just get you to pause a second and maybe reply to the person in a sea of DMs and messages. Is there something in particular that spikes you?

Codie Sanchez 30:14 The only thing that spikes is some sort of expertise. You and I are only interested, really, in one thing. We are interested in somebody who has a understanding of the world that we don't-

Steven Bartlett 30:25 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 30:26 ... that can take us one step further.... right? You don't need another floor cleaner, you don't need another driver. But if a young kid reached out to you and they said, "Hey, I've analyzed 542 YouTube videos of yours. Here are the thumbnails that actually work the best. Uh, here's a bunch that you have lately that I don't actually think work. Here's the data driven behind this. I actually put together a few mock-ups of it for you and, um, and I reached out to these three people that I think would be great to have on your podcast. Here's why. And they've already agreed to it. If this is interesting, I just wanted to forward along this packet to you." You might be like, "Hmm. That's interesting. Okay."

Steven Bartlett 31:01 What about that last line you used there, "I just wanted to forward this onto you"? Why is-

Codie Sanchez 31:05 Oh, yeah. It, you never want to expect something for a gift given. I call it the 10X rule. So I try to never ask for something unless I have given 10 ass- 10X to a person and we have that across our business too. I think you should do that with, with young people. So when I was younger, I have a lot of people that I thought of as mentors. They would never know that they were a mentor of mine and all I would do is I would ask them one question. So I wouldn't go to famous people, but I might go to a normal, you know, kind of high-powered exec in finance or something and say like, "Hey, I was wondering, I saw you did this deal over here. Um, I was wondering why you chose to invest in that company versus this company. You know, if you had time for a one-sentence reply, that'd be amazing." And they might reply me one sentence, maybe one outta 10 people would, and then I would say, "Thank you. No need to respond further. This was really helpful. I'm gonna go implement this in some way." And then I would reach out to them in a couple weeks and I'd be like, "Hey, that piece of information you gave me, I just did X, Y, and Z with it. Really helpful. Thank you. No need to reply, just letting you know that you made an impact." And that no need to reply and me following up is so rare. I wish people realized that today, that if you want something, follow-through is worth its weight in gold. I mean, one of the other things that we do is when people reach out to us and say stuff like, "We'd like to do XYZ for you," I say, "Read this book," and I'll give them a random book and I say, "Come back to me with a few XYZ questions or things." How many people do you think actually come back?

Steven Bartlett 32:31 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 32:32 I mean, I think I've had five maybe and so follow-through is so rare and what would happen with these people, and I still do it to this day, I had one guy who was, um... What was his role? Hmm. He was quite high up at a company called State Street and I can't remember what his role was, but he said to me one day, I was in New York, I had played that game with him for probably years, like, "Hey, tiny little thing, one w- sentence of advice." "Great, thank you. Here's how I implemented it," again and again and again, maybe 20 times over the course of two years. And finally I was in New York and he was in New York and I pinged him and said, "I'd love to take you to dinner. I wanna talk to you about a few things." And it was so funny 'cause as we sat down, he goes, "This is the weirdest thing." And I thought, "Oh, no. What?" And he said, uh, "I don't really know you, but I feel invested in your success." And I was like, "I know you do because I'm dripping on you for two years showing you that a tiny little action which felt like nothing to you actually made a material impact on my life."

Steven Bartlett 33:27 Mm.

Codie Sanchez 33:27 "And most people don't get to feel that way."

Steven Bartlett 33:30 So I'm a, I'm a young person. I'm, I'm Cody Sanchez without anything. You've managed to get yourself nice and cozy with someone rich and powerful.

Codie Sanchez 33:36 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 33:36 You're now in their inner

Steven Bartlett 33:37 circle, you're learning from them. What, where do you go from there?

Codie Sanchez 33:40 Yeah. Um, well the first thing that I would do is... You, if you look back at my resume, I think I stayed at most jobs for like a year and a half, two years max, until I was at one called First Trust where I was there for five years because I had ownership, uh, in the business and, uh, I felt like I had skin in the game. I had control of my outcome. But before then, I really only stayed in jobs about a year and a half. The second that they told me I couldn't progress anymore or I couldn't have an option to make more money, I left. And so in my opinion, the young generation does have it right that you should not stay at a job for 20 years unless that job continues to allow you to earn more and to learn more. So the second I wasn't earning more and the second I didn't feel like I could learn more exponentially, I left. So that's what I think they should do. And you basically are, you're kind of monkey barring both how much you earn and what you can learn to your next position and I think that people, too many people start doing entrepreneurship too early, uh, in my opinion, because you can learn on somebody else's dime as opposed to going out and doing the brutal, awful thing that could put you 10 years behind 'cause you lose all your money and you don't actually have enough knowledge to do the job right. Go and work for a bunch of entrepreneurs for five or seven years, and then once you've been sure that you really want to be in the game and be an entrepreneur, then go do it. But that's what I would do. I would leapfrog to positions of higher power and then eventually I might become an entrepreneur and... In finance they have a really cool thing that I think more companies should do and that if you leave your company you should try and we should play it with you. So when I left First Trust, the first person who wanted to give me a check was my CEO, so I was like, "I'm gonna go do something else. I'm gonna build something else." And he, he wanted me out of the firm. He was like, "I don't want you running the business how you're running it now. You need to do it my way, not your way." But we left amicably and he said, "I wanna be your first investment. Like when you go looking for investors, I wanna be it." And I think that is what employees should strive for. Try to get your boss to give you your first capital and if you're a great employee, they're gonna be happy to.

Steven Bartlett 35:44 Mm. In order to leapfrog, you're g- gonna have to do a lot of interviews. So I just wanted to pause-

Codie Sanchez 35:49 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 35:49 ... there and, and ask, you know, when you're interviewing people, what

Steven Bartlett 35:52 are the red flags? Um, and if I was interviewing to join Cody Sanchez's business empire, what's the best things that I could say and do and what's the best behavior that I could exhibit in that moment?

Codie Sanchez 36:04 Yeah. Um, people will give you things when they think you know them more than they know you. And so what do I mean by that? I mean, nobody... I mean, our favorite word is our, our name, right? For every single one of us and we all like to talk about ourselves more than we like to ask questions. It's just kind of true for most humans. So if we know that to be true, what do you wanna do in an interview? You wanna go in and say, "Here's all the things I think I know about your company. I'm not sure because I'm, I'm not you. I'm on the outside, but this is what I think I know about it. Really impressed by this. I think this is great over here. I'm curious about this. Can you tell me why you guys made this decision?" The interviewer should be showing the interviewer-... er, that you know almost everything that there is to know about their company. And it should be done with a lot of humility, like, "I think that..." even if you're certain. The "I think" is important. And the second that happens, our ego gets to us and I go, "Ah, this, this guy's pretty smart. You're right, that was a good move that we did over there."

Steven Bartlett 37:02 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 37:02 And so that's what I think a lot of people don't do. Too many people do shotgun rounds, which is really wide, going after a ton of different jobs, as opposed to sniper shots. Go after the three positions you want aggressively, knowing everything about that company and that boss. You're much more likely to get it than just to apply on Indeed.

Steven Bartlett 37:21 Is there anything else that is a, an immediate turn-off for you in an interview? Like an immediate red flag, if someone says something or does something?

Codie Sanchez 37:27 Oh, yeah, there's so many.

Steven Bartlett 37:28 G-

Codie Sanchez 37:28 Immediate not gonna hire you if you talk badly about your last boss, because the way you treated your last person's probably gonna be the way you treat me. Immediately not gonna hire you. Second immediate not gonna hire you is if you talk about all the reasons why something didn't work and it's not your fault, so if you're victim mentality at all. "Well, this didn't work because of this. This didn't work because of this." Third in the interview is if you at all start talking about, um... (laughs) This one's a little inappropriate, but if you come into my companies and you say, uh, "Talk to me about work/life balance," I'm not the place for you. Our companies are hardcore. There's not a lot of work/life balance. We work hard. So I'm not gonna hire you if you talk about how much time off, are you, you know, texting on the weekends? The answer is yes. The second, uh, point to that is I always make the job seem worse than it is. And so, and s- a lot of people who hire try to sell the person, "This is why it's so great. You should come here." My interview usually goes like this. "Hey, I want to ask you a bunch of questions about your background, then I'm gonna tell you all the things that are really tough about this job so you get the honest truth about it one way or the other, and then I'll wrap up with you g- with you asking any questions you want. Does that sound good?" They go, "Yep." I kinda pepper them with questions about them, and I go, "Here's all the things that suck about this job. Here's all the things that are hard. Here's all the reasons why it hasn't worked to date. Any questions on that?" And the reason why is because I don't want anybody coming into my company and going, "God, I thought it was gonna be better than this." I want them coming in and going, "Oh, okay. This actually isn't miserable."

Steven Bartlett 39:01 Hm. A- and at some point, from, you know, you leapfrog from one place to another and eventually you have enough, I guess, intelligence

Steven Bartlett 39:10 to, to start be- thinking about becoming an owner at some point.

Codie Sanchez 39:13 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 39:13 How do I make that transition from being a, a team member or an employee to becoming an owner? If I only have a couple of thousand dollars, let's say. It, I mean, can I at that point?

Codie Sanchez 39:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 39:22 Or do I need to become rich to become an owner?

Codie Sanchez 39:25 That's a good question. First, I think becoming an owner inside of a business is totally possible, and so you should ask your boss this question, which is, "In this business, if I am one of your top performers consistently and make myself materially important to the business, can I get some ownership in either this business or anything else that we do? And I am willing to earn it or invest in it to do that." And so for instance, at my companies, if you're one of the top performers, you can invest alongside me in some of our other companies. That's a finance model that I stole. So in private equity, the reason why people in private equity are so rich is 'cause all the, the managers of the company have an opportunity to invest in the best deals, so they can put some money in. And there's allowances for people who aren't accredited investors, but are employees, to actually invest even though they're not accredited in the US, which is a really unfair advantage. And so I would ask your, your employer that question. And then the second thing that I would do is I would try to see if you can earn still, so you can W2 earn, you can make as much money as humanly possible from your salary, and then take the money from your salary and invest in other side deals. And I would do that before I ever jumped into my own business overall.

Steven Bartlett 40:43 The problem, uh, I think, th- that came straight to mind when, when I think about that is h- when you start investing in side deals...

Codie Sanchez 40:50 Uh-huh.

Steven Bartlett 40:51 ... you're g- you're gonna make a lot of mistakes and you're gonna lose a lot of money-

Codie Sanchez 40:53 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:53 ... because seed investing is tough anyway, but it-

Codie Sanchez 40:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 40:55 ... especially if you have poor deal flow, i.e. you're not getting a lot of deals, it's just your mate, Kevin, who has this idea for an app.

Codie Sanchez 41:01 Kevin.

Steven Bartlett 41:02 And he asks for 25K.

Codie Sanchez 41:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:03 So, you know, I, I, it's, I say this because I had a f- a fairly famous actor come up to me the other day who's very young in his career, made a lot of money, and he said, "Steve, I don't know what to do with my money," et cetera, "I don't know where to invest it." And he goes, "My mate has this app idea." And I just go, "Ugh." You know?

Codie Sanchez 41:17 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 41:17 But he, that's, that's the only deal he has on his plate.

Codie Sanchez 41:20 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 41:20 So he's giving his friend 25 or 50K for an app idea, so, um, is that smart to do, or...

Codie Sanchez 41:26 Yeah, it's a great question. No. I think unl- until you're rich, and let's define rich as until you're a millionaire-

Steven Bartlett 41:31 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 41:32 ... I would do zero startup investing. I mean zero, because it's a 90% failure rate.

Steven Bartlett 41:37 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 41:37 You only invest in startups when you wanna get pretty rich because you can burn some capital in order to have a few home runs. So instead, I might go to something like, we're an investor in this company, so full disclosure, but there's a company called Percent where they allow you to invest in bond deals that cash flow for small businesses. You could also do equity deals in businesses that cash flow. Um, so I would stay away from anything that isn't already profitable, that doesn't already make money. And I think once you have your first million, you can play that game. But until then, you only wanna do deals where you're cash flowing, and so that's where I would start. You could start with something like Percent. You could also start by talking to, you know, your employer, like I was talking about, and say, "Hey, in this business that we have now, how could I earn some equity?" And the answer might be, you can't. Like I don't give equity in Contrarian Thinking, my media company, because I want to own my name forever. I don't ever think I'm gonna sell this thing. But if we have cash flowing laundromats and car washes, yeah, you guys can invest in that if you're seen as a marquee member of the team. So maybe find companies where that's allowed too.

Steven Bartlett 42:41 Just on that point, just curious, and this is kind of a bit of a tangent, but if I'm a team member of yours and, 'cause you said if you're a marquee member of the team...... laundromat, so-

Codie Sanchez 42:48 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:48 ... what if I come to you and I say, "Cody, can I get a piece of that laundromat?"

Codie Sanchez 42:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 42:52 You turn to me and go, "No, you're not a marquee member of this team."

Codie Sanchez 42:55 Mm-hmm. Oh, yeah, for sure. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 42:56 (laughs) What, that's what you'd say to me?

Codie Sanchez 42:58 Yeah. I, I would j- Yeah, I would say, "At this point, people who are allowed to have equity in the company are people that I think we are gonna travel through time together." That means years or decades.

Steven Bartlett 43:06 So, you don't think I'm gonna travel in time with you?

Codie Sanchez 43:07 I'm not sure yet. I don't know you well enough yet.

Steven Bartlett 43:09 Okay.

Codie Sanchez 43:09 "You've been here for a year. You know, you run our social media accounts. You've hit goals, but you haven't absolutely blown them out of the park yet. You know, do you think that if you left the company right now, we would be unable to function without you?" And the answer is usually like, "No, probably not." "Okay. So at this point, you're not a partner in the business yet. You're still on employee status, but if you keep taking on more responsibility, and you keep beating goals overall, and you show me that the business is better and would lose steam without you, then absolutely you can invest." But I learned this from Jim Bowen at First Trust. He did this beautifully. You had to pay into the partnership to become a partner. You w- and that kinda sucked because you also have to pay taxes on partnership. And, um, so not only do you not get money right away, but you have to spend money every year because your partnership value goes up and you have to pay taxes on it. But Jim made this big, this big feeling at the company about the chance when he offers somebody partnership. It was like a celebration. And that is, I think, what we wanna do in our companies. Same thing Warren Buffett does. You know, he allows his employees to have equity in his companies, but only those that he thinks he's gonna travel through time with. And Warren Buffett has had the same 37 employees, I think, for, like, 20 years. It's fa- You can go look at their Christmas cards and nobody changes year after year after year.

Steven Bartlett 44:34 Can I get rich if I just have a salary, do you think?

Codie Sanchez 44:37 Yeah. You can. You can't get on the Forbes 100

Codie Sanchez 44:41 list if you just have a salary, but if you wanna make a couple million dollars, 100%. I mean, Bruce, Brucey Bruce, back at Goldman Sachs, bought an ambassadorship, and he was only ever a salaried employee. He got bonus too, of course, climbed the corporate ladder, and is probably worth 100 million plus now.

Steven Bartlett 44:58 S- so why do I need to buy a boring business?

Codie Sanchez 45:00 You don't. You don't need to. The problem is, what if Bruce gets fired? What if your job doesn't exist? What if you're an attorney now and you make great wages or hours but AI does take your jobs? What's your backup plan?

Steven Bartlett 45:12 So my backup plan might just be, I don't know, I own some Airbnbs and I rent them out or something?

Codie Sanchez 45:16 You could do that too. Airbnb's pretty volatile market. We've seen that now. And I think, I like, I, I don't like risk. And so I think if you wanna get rich, how do you get rich? You try to not lose money over time, and you try to have enough bets where you can have an outsized return at some point. So you could just own Airbnbs, you could just do real estate. I don't really care how people do it. I don't think everybody should own a laundromat or a car wash, but I do think you should have a backup plan. So one day when you wanna retire too, you got some extra income coming in.

Steven Bartlett 45:49 So if I've got tens of thousands of dollars or pounds-

Codie Sanchez 45:51 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:52 ... um, do you think, what, what do you think, what would you do with it?

Codie Sanchez 45:54 I was playing this game yesterday.

Codie Sanchez 45:56 There's three businesses I really like right now. I really like, uh, senior care centers-

Steven Bartlett 46:02 Senior care centers, okay.

Codie Sanchez 46:03 ... which is interesting 'cause you'd go, "Cody, I said tens of thousands, not hundreds of thousands."

Steven Bartlett 46:06 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 46:07 But senior care centers are interesting because there's all these government grants and allowances-

Steven Bartlett 46:11 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 46:11 ... for the fact that we do not have enough of them in the US, and you can turn a house with the right licensing and zoning into a senior care center. And so I won't get too technical on it, but demographics show we have a huge aging population. We need more areas to take care of them. And you can start smaller by having an independent living house that has a rotating nurse. You make three to 5X the rent on that as you do a regular mid-term or long-term rental. So, I like the demographics of that one. Plus, it's not super capital-intensive 'cause you could rent the house out from somebody else and then just layer this assisted living center on top of it. Um, we had, we had to put my grandparents in, in one of these, uh, at one point because they needed 24/7 care.

Steven Bartlett 46:54 Did you buy-

Codie Sanchez 46:55 No, but I should have.

Steven Bartlett 46:56 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 46:56 I should have. Um, I think my, my fam-

Steven Bartlett 46:59 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 46:59 Their families are already, like, crazy. I could only imagine if I said, "The thing is I'd like to cash flow on this."

Steven Bartlett 47:04 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 47:04 (laughs) They'd be like, "Cody, get outta here."

Steven Bartlett 47:07 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 47:07 I also really like, um, I like businesses today that are service-based, uh, but don't require a ton of upfront capital, so for instance, window cleaning businesses. I just bought one of these, it's called Pynx with this company called Resi Brands, but I love it because I did it. We have a YouTube video that's gonna come out, and I was like, "Am I full of shit? Let's try this and see if I could actually do it." So you need to make $384 a day in order to have a business that does $100,000 a year if you only work five days a week. So I was like, "Can we make $384 pre-selling window cleaning services to somebody, uh, in order to start this business?" And we tried it and we did it. And so, um, so I might start, like, a window cleaning business, a pressure washing business, uh, a painting business. Uh, you could also buy one of those. Those are trade services businesses. And then the third type of business that I always talk about are what I call gateway drug businesses, or semi-, um, semi-autonomous businesses like laundromats or car washes. The problem with those are they're slightly more expensive.

Steven Bartlett 48:11 I just wanna t- take a pause here and just sorta get perspective on what you're talking about for someone that has no understanding of business. So, my name is Nigel, and I am p- 37.

Codie Sanchez 48:25 Mm.

Steven Bartlett 48:25 I've never ran a business before, I don't know anything about businesses or investing or anything like that.

Codie Sanchez 48:28 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:29 What are you, what is it you're telling me to do?

Codie Sanchez 48:31 Mm. And s- and Nigel wants to make more money.

Steven Bartlett 48:34 Nigel wants to make more money. He wants to be an owner. He wants to be a millionaire-

Codie Sanchez 48:37 Mm-hmm.

Steven Bartlett 48:37 ... in, in 10 years time.

Codie Sanchez 48:38 Mm-hmm. And Nigel's willing to work hard.

Steven Bartlett 48:40 He's willing to work the hardest.

Codie Sanchez 48:42 He just doesn't really know what to do because there's so many options and so many conflicting things he gets told-

Steven Bartlett 48:45 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 48:45 ... all the time.

Steven Bartlett 48:45 Lots of word, he's hearing all these words, Resi Brands, he's hearing, like, window cleaning, power washer. He's like, "Wh- what, what's she doing with a power washer?"

Codie Sanchez 48:52 (laughs) So if I was Nigel, here's the question I would be asking myself.I would be saying, one, "Do I wanna keep my job that I have currently? Or do I wanna not keep my job?" That's really important 'cause it's like, am I gonna go work on something 24/7 or not?

Steven Bartlett 49:06 I'm not making enough money to completely walk away from my job yet.

Codie Sanchez 49:09 Okay, perfect. So that means you kind of-

Steven Bartlett 49:10 I have a little bit of savings.

Codie Sanchez 49:11 Yeah, you want a little side hustle that you think could be your full-time hustle.

Steven Bartlett 49:13 Yes.

Codie Sanchez 49:14 Right? So in that case, what I would start doing is asking myself ... We have something called your unfair advantage Venn diagram. And what your unfair advantage Venn diagram is, is your skill set, so what is Nigel good at? And that, that's as simple as, like, maybe Nigel's in marketing, so he's actually pretty good at marg- marketing. Maybe Nigel drives a, a, you know, an Uber or a car service, so he's really good at working super long hours. He's just got the workhorse in him. Then, uh, I add my network. Who does Nigel know that could help him? So that might be like Nigel's brother is actually a plumber. He works inside of a plumbing business, so if Nigel figured out how to buy a business, he could partner with his plumber brother-in-law or whatever, and they could do it together. And then finally, it's like, what gets you excited?

Steven Bartlett 50:02 Hm.

Codie Sanchez 50:02 And by what gets you excited, I don't mean an industry. I mean, Nigel loves sales. Nigel loves it. He wants to sell people stuff. Okay. And the reason I talk about this Venn diagram like this is, is a little bit more complex than saying, "You should go buy a franchise. You should go buy a window cleaning business, or start those," is because I think the biggest mis- reason why people struggle with what to do next is they don't actually know themselves.

Steven Bartlett 50:27 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 50:28 And so if I was Nigel, I would say to you, "Find what your Venn diagram is of the things that you think you're good at, your network is good at, that you could actually go either start or buy a business on." Because the fastest path to wealth is having some type of ownership. So, I would start there.

Steven Bartlett 50:46 Before I knew what I know now about business, if I'd heard you say when I was 18 years old, "Just go buy a business," I'd go, "Cody, listen. I've got $700

Steven Bartlett 50:54 left from my call center job a month."

Codie Sanchez 50:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 50:56 Like, how can I buy a business that's making millions or hundreds of thousands? I'm gonna have to wait til I'm rich.

Codie Sanchez 51:01 Yeah. Well, yeah, you can't buy it with your 700 extra bucks, but you could buy it with your sweat and your time. So there's three ways to buy a business. You can either use cash, you can use expertise, or you can use time, or what I call sweat equity. So think about it right now. I buy a bunch of businesses, I have a ton of cash. You know what I don't have a lot of? Operators. I don't have a lot of people who can go actually run the business that I want them to run. But if I had a young guy who was super hungry and I could give him $100,000 to go operate the business that I was gonna go run, I would probably do that. And people do that every day in our community. And so for this young gun, you're not gonna go buy the business outright yourself with your own capital. You're going to say, "I'm working 12 hours in a call center right now. I am relentless. If you pair me with somebody that knows how to run a plumbing company, and I just have to learn and do a bunch of the bullshit to start the company and grow the company or continue the company, would you partner with me?" And they're not gonna be able to partner with a Stephen or a Cody probably at fro- at first, but they might be able to partner with, you know, somebody, uh, somebody's dad that they know. And so, like for instance, we had a young guy in our group. I'll change his name to Adam since I don't know if, if I'm allowed to talk about it or not. But let's say, so Adam was 19 years old. Adam worked inside of a marketing company, and he had never run a business before, didn't have a lot of cash. Adam went to the senior partner of his marketing company that he worked for and said like, "We have this vendor over here that we do some stuff with. They do all of our graphic design work. Uh, they're really good. The guy's kinda done with running this business, like I don't think he wants to keep doing it. I was talking to him about it the other day. What if we bought this business and I ran it? Like I'll integrate it for us, I'll bring it into this company, and I think we can buy it with just a percentage of future profits we bring in," which is called seller financing. And the marketing head was like, "If you think you can get that deal done, yeah, sure." And the guy was like, "Okay." Adam says, "Well, if I do that, can I have part of the company for bringing it over?" And he said, "Well, yeah. Yeah, I mean, I, you know, I don't have to put in capital to the deal or have to put in a very small amount of capital. You're gonna run it, and we basically have like a risk-free trade because we just have to pay them a percentage of future revenue or future profit. Sure." And so now Adam owns a business that he's about to sell because he basically partnered with his, his owner.

Steven Bartlett 53:24 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 53:24 And so, I mean, you could even think about that with your business today. If you're, if you're a young person working with Stephen, and you're like, "Hey, Stephen, we're in this studio right now. I saw like a sign out front that says that they're actually, they wanna sell this studio space. I bet we could rent out this whole thing, and, uh, we could probably cash flow and make this a profit center instead of a loss center for us. If I could like negotiate a deal that was basically a seller-financed real estate deal for us, would we, would you wanna do something like that? I could help us run the, you know, rental of it." Now, you might say no to that first deal, but you're probably gonna look different at that employee.

Steven Bartlett 54:02 100%. A- and also, I just wanna explain what seller financing is-

Codie Sanchez 54:06 Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:06 ... for someone that doesn't know.

Codie Sanchez 54:07 Seller financing is how 60% of all businesses get sold when they're small businesses, so it's very normal. Seller financing just means this, that the seller uses a f- a percentage of future profits to let somebody else buy the business, and um, instead of you having a loan or a mortgage for a house, they're basically saying, "Hey, my business right now makes $100,000 a year profit. I wanna sell it to you for $300,000." Um, you go, "Sounds good. I don't have $300,000." And they go, "Okay. Well, why don't I sell it to you for $300,000 over five years, and you pay me each year from that $100,000 profit that we have? Could we do a deal that way?" You might be like, "Yeah, we could do that."

Steven Bartlett 54:51 They've just gotta believe that you're gonna be able to grow the business.

Codie Sanchez 54:54 Yeah, or not...... royally fuck it up, yeah, 100%, which is, you know, selling anything is a trust trade, right? So these days we have to do less trust when we sell something because we have immediate trust in, like, a credit card or money. This is almost going back to bartering days where it's like, "I'm gonna sell you this with the idea that you're gonna give me that."

Steven Bartlett 55:17 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 55:18 It's a harder trade, but it's totally doable.

Steven Bartlett 55:20 It's funny 'cause at the heart of all of your messages, Codie, is this sort of deep optimism and belief that one

Steven Bartlett 55:28 can just kinda bend the world.

Codie Sanchez 55:29 Hmm.

Steven Bartlett 55:30 And I say this because, you know, whenever we're talking about this hypothetical young person, everything is kinda just, yeah, just go ask this person to do this and da-da-da, but... And I was just, as you were saying that, I was thinking, I resonate with that because I was that 18-year-old kid that was just sending off the emails and asking people to help me and whatever else. But I don't think the vast majority of people have a deep internal belief that they can kinda just mold the world.

Codie Sanchez 55:51 Yeah, it's so true.

Steven Bartlett 55:52 Do you know what I mean? Just, like, bend it in this direction. They think it is how it is and you sh-... You play a role within it. Not that you can just like, yeah, go to a guy and knock on his door and offer him this and... (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 56:02 You're actually so right.

Steven Bartlett 56:03 Do you know what I mean?

Codie Sanchez 56:04 Yeah, it's true, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 56:04 It's a, it's a bias that I think you and me have because we've been exposed to the fact that you can't actually just bend the world around.

Codie Sanchez 56:09 Yeah, you just gotta watch one person do it and then you go, "Oh, I'm a wizard too." You know? We're all wizards. Um...

Steven Bartlett 56:15 Is this your Bannister effect idea that I heard you talk about?

Codie Sanchez 56:18 Oh, yeah, that's right. So, well, there's two things I wanna talk about. One is, you've heard of, of Steve Jobs, um, reality distortion field?

Steven Bartlett 56:26 Loosely.

Codie Sanchez 56:27 Yeah. So Steve Jobs was known for having this energy that basically made other people around him believe that, um, they could change the world, that they were unstoppable. And so he would talk... Uh, people would talk afterwards, after he died, about how he'd come into their office and he'd be like, "We're gonna ship this prob- product in 24 hours. I know we were gonna do it in three weeks, but we're gonna do it in 24 hours." He would get them all riled up and then they would ship it in 24 hours. And after the 24 hours were done, they would kind of be like, you know, coming out from a blackout like, "What just happened? How did he talk me into that?" That's his reality distortion field, which I think is fascinating because we all actually have that ability. His was really strong, but for nerds, Star Wars nerds like I am out there, it's, it's like the Force. You know? It's if you actually believe that you are capable of something, it's weird what you can accomplish.

Steven Bartlett 57:19 Amen.

Codie Sanchez 57:20 I think so.

Steven Bartlett 57:21 Amen.

Codie Sanchez 57:22 Yeah. You know?

Steven Bartlett 57:23 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 57:23 Um, so I like to r-... You know, if, if you want to get a reality distortion field, reading the biographies of billionaires is really powerful. I'd rather read 10, uh, billionaires' biographies than 200 self-help books because they've actually done it. And so, uh, I think it's... Who's the guy that wrote Steve Jobs' book? Is it Abramoff?

Steven Bartlett 57:42 Walter Isaacson?

Codie Sanchez 57:42 Walter Isaacson, yeah. Incredible book to even listen to to see that reality s-... Distortion field.

Steven Bartlett 57:48 Elon Musk is the same. I mean, I sp-... I spoke to Walter and he, he told me that Elon has this just ins-... Obsessive

Steven Bartlett 57:56 ability to just assume that everything he's being told is basically not true, i.e. if someone says something takes eight, eight months or something, he, he seems to just reject that idea on sight and he immediately asks about the core components of the challenge. So he'll immediately go right down to the roots of the problem.

Codie Sanchez 58:14 Yep.

Steven Bartlett 58:15 And from there he'll figure out that in fact it can get done in eight days. And I, and I just don't think people understand the advantage of saving that amount of time on, on big ch-... In... On any challenge you have in your life, on figuring out a way to make it happen faster, because one of the great currencies of all of our lives is just the time that we have.

Codie Sanchez 58:32 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:32 And some people are like... Some people will take three to four years to start a business that with your information and that your understanding and your bias would probably take you 90 days.

Codie Sanchez 58:42 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 58:43 That's a three, like a three-year nine-month saving on life just because you have this sort of urgent bias, you have this bias towards believing that all these deadlines are actually just, um, I don't know, uh, bullshit.

Codie Sanchez 58:56 Yeah. I mean, one of my favorite mentors told me a line that changed my life, which was, um... It was Bill Perkins. I asked him why he's so successful in so many aspects of his life, damn near a billionaire, and, uh, and he said, "The only reason that I am successful is I'm faster than everybody else. By the time they have thought about an idea, taken it to a meeting, and started to move, I have already made three mistakes and found a faster way." And so his bias on speed is fascinating. If you ever hang out with the guy, it's wild. You know, I'll be like, "Can we schedule a meeting?" He's like, "I'm calling you right now." Um, and so he just moves quicker. So in our companies, we implemented something called the 24-hour rule, which was this ci-... Idea that if we wanna win, we have to have a bias towards action. We have to decrease our time between thinking about a thing and doing the thing. And so most people say, "Well, I'll get back to you on that next week," right? "Get back to you on that next week." Hate that line. That is where dreams and money goes to die.

Steven Bartlett 59:52 (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 59:52 Instead I say, "Can you get it to me tomorrow?" If all we do different than our competitors is they take a week to do things and we get it done in a day, I don't have to be richer, smarter, or better, I'm just faster.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:04 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:00:05 And it drives my team crazy many times, but I'm not smarter. I'm really not. I'm just very fast at a few things and I ignore a shit ton of stuff that I don't think is gonna move us forward.

Steven Bartlett 1:00:16 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:00:17 You're, you're the same. I've seen it with your team, you know? Uh, we've gone back and forth with your team and then you'll be like, "Let's just do this one thing right now instead." I'm like, "Oh, yeah. Okay. That makes sense."

Steven Bartlett 1:00:26 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:00:27 And so I think speed is the consistency. It's... Chris and I were just talking about this. I got annoyed the other day because I was, um... You know, what happens is people overthink things, and in this day and age, it happens more and more. They, they think about the thing and they confuse thinking with work.And more often than not, thinking is not working. And this is where people yell at me on the internet and go, "Well, if I just don't think about anything and I move really fast, I could move fast in the wrong direction." Yeah, you could, but just iterate. Move fast and iterate.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:01 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:02 And that's what most people don't do. And so I'll tell my team all the time, "You're thinking about this way too much. Make a decision in 30 seconds. What's the decision? I'll tell you if I like it, yes or no. I like the decision, move forward." And so ask yourself that in life. It's like Mel Robbins, one, two, three, four, five, get out of bed.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:17 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:17 Mine is, 30 seconds to a decision.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:20 Hmm. I was, it reminds me of a, I think it was an SAS, former SAS, uh, soldier that I was speaking to, and he said his friend was going through a lot of problems in his life, going through a divorce, et cetera, et cetera. And he asked, he called him and asked him for advice. He said, "You're an SAS, you know, soldier. What should I do?" And he said, "When you're in the middle of the woods and you're feeling lost, start walking."

Codie Sanchez 1:01:39 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:40 And it's a nice metaphor for life, which is you- you could, you- you'll die of starvation just stood there overthinking about your problems, lost in the middle of the woods. But if you start walking, you'll gain some information. You'll gain, you'll gain your bearings. And I think especially in my earlier career, I was certainly a victim of, like, procrastinating myself into a hole.

Codie Sanchez 1:01:58 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:58 With- with- with a big business problem. But even this morning, I had something... This morning, my team in the UK were speaking to me about, uh, quite a- quite a critical business decision that I had to make, and it's now in my old age that I realized, uh, I realized... Oh, I almost said (mumbles) . An older version of me will- would- would spend three months trying to get this decision right. But a more mature version of me knows that there is no perfect outcome. There's pain on all sides of this decision. (laughs)

Codie Sanchez 1:02:31 True. True.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:32 So- so I have to write... I wrote this long-ass, like, essay memo this morning and sent it into a person in my, one of my offices in- in- in Europe, and it's so crazy that they responded, this person responded within... 'Cause I was so c- like, I was so concerned about what they might say and how it might end. And they responded within four and a half minutes, and they're like, "Yeah, cool. Got it. I actually agree. And no need to call me because I- I completely understand." And I thought, "Fucking hell, that could have taken three months of us all in a boardroom deliberating how to break this news."

Codie Sanchez 1:03:02 100%.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:03 It's interesting. It's funny because the people that are most experienced in business seem to be the most intense, and I think this kind of gives the clue as to why.

Codie Sanchez 1:03:10 Yeah. You know, one thing I've also realized, if you wanna... If you want to get higher level positions, one of the other things you can do to get there faster, I think, is your speed of communication. It's not even your speed of action. So if you're in an interview, don't bumble fuck your way through the interview. Think about exactly what you wanna say with as few words as possible and be as direct as possible in it. And I've realized there's a huge correlation in our executives we hire between those who are good, they speak fast, they are clear, and they don't waste other people's times. Uh, you know, there are a couple of executives I still have at some of my companies, and there are two that I know I have to move on because they're not fast enough and they're not fast enough in their communication, and I should have seen that up front. And I think the way that you communicate is often the way you work, and it doesn't mean that you have... For instance, I don't respond to all text messages. You know, I don't think that every single thing that comes in front of me needs to be handled. I probably let 40% of things go unanswered and 20% of things I am on top of it, like Sauron's eye in Lord of the Rings. I'm just watching.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:20 If- if I was to look at your business, do you think that your highest performers, is there sort of a correlation between how much they talk and how much they don't?

Codie Sanchez 1:04:27 There is a correlation between having no patience for wasted time.

Steven Bartlett 1:04:33 Interesting. Tell me.

Codie Sanchez 1:04:34 So for instance, o- one of my guys here, Tanner, he's like, "Oh, man, I can't engage with this human because they're always talking to me and I don't really have time to do that." And that is what I have found with high performers. They do not like when you waste their time. And so, you know, if you think about the typical office life, why do we not like typical office life? Because people come in and it's like water cooler bullshit talk where nobody really says anything. You ask about the kids, you don't know the kids' names. What happened this weekend? You don't really care. High performers are not interested in that. Why? Because you wanna perform, you wanna talk about interesting things that move you forward, and then you wanna go live your life. You want out of the office. I found low level performers, they actually wanna waste time during the day because they're not trying to execute. They're trying to just show that they are there, and there's a big difference between the two. And every time I hire a- a low performer, it's because I ignore that point, you know.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:29 Which point? The urgency, the lack of urgency and time wisdom.

Codie Sanchez 1:05:31 Yes, yes, I forget about it in the interview, you know, and it's really important to pay attention to those types of people in your life. Who are the people that just are okay wasting your time? Because what does that mean? If they're okay wasting your time, they're definitely wasting their time.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:46 There was a phrase that I read in your work where you used the phrase, "Obsessed, not interested."

Codie Sanchez 1:05:50 Oh, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:05:51 I really love that. I actually screenshotted it on the way

Steven Bartlett 1:05:53 over here today, and I sent it to some of- some of my team members that I talk about this a lot too, about this idea of obsession, and specifically the team members that are on the forefront of really hiring people because there is a big correlation between the outcome of someone who is obsessed versus someone who isn't.

Codie Sanchez 1:06:09 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:06:09 And the obsessed people are just always the best.

Codie Sanchez 1:06:11 They win. You know, I was with Karl Rove, again, who's, like, not a popular figure, but he was chief of the- chief of staff- deputy chief of staff to George W. Bush, and is, like, one of... They call him the architect because he architects most of the Republican races in this country. And so whether you like it or not, I'm- I don't really care. I don't need to like somebody to learn from them. Doesn't matter to me. And so I- I had him on the podcast to hear, like, what does it mean to, like, architect the centers of power? That's fascinating. And, um, when I was talking to him, what stood out to me, I'd been in- in meetings with him multiple times and at his house a few times for- for fundraising events, and I would watch him, and somebody would ask a question that was like, "Hey, why did..."... Bob Sanders in, n- Pennsylvania lose this senatorial race? And his response would be like, "Well, we lost it by, you know, 1,200 votes on the third Friday on, like, December 4th, 2012 and the reason is because we didn't have this segment of the population come out." And then he would do that for, like, five locations across the country. And I remember th- I, I asked him, I was like, "Do you have a photographic memory?" And he's like, "Absolutely not. I only have one about the things I'm obsessed with."

Steven Bartlett 1:07:19 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:20 And I think we all actually have that. Like, you've met friends where, like, they know every score of a football game-

Steven Bartlett 1:07:26 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:26 ... for Manchester United ever.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:28 Yeah.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:28 Do they have a photographic memory? No, they're obsessed. And so if you can find people who are obsessed with the thing that you're doing, it just means... They don't work hard, they are just like... They, they think of it as hardly working because they're so intense on it.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:41 Mm-hmm.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:41 And they can't help themselves.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:43 Well, I was thinking of, of that as well as career advice as you were saying it 'cause if I'm trying to thi- figure out where to place myself to end up in the best place in 10 years from now, I should be placing myself against my, my, my true obsessions. And you can't have fake obsessions.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:55 Yeah, it's true.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:55 You can't have a fake obsession. You can't be obsessed about something you're not.

Codie Sanchez 1:07:59 No.

Steven Bartlett 1:07:59 Because it's like, what are you doing at th- what video are you watching on YouTube at 3:00 AM that's keeping you from sleeping, is my, like, sense check of what I'm actually obsessed about.

Codie Sanchez 1:08:08 That's a great point.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:09 Um, and presumably that's what's gonna take me the furthest in my career. Or is that, would you...

Codie Sanchez 1:08:14 I think that's right. And how do you teach yourself to become obsessed with the aspects of your business or whatever