James Clear: Why goals fail and systems quietly win in 2026

How Clear designs environments, builds two-minute habits, and reduces scope; he shows that sticking to the schedule beats motivation when discipline fails.

Steven BartletthostJames Clearguest

Dec 11, 20252h 11mWatch on YouTube ↗

EVERY SPOKEN WORD

150 min read · 30,400 words

0:00 – 2:47
Intro
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  You've written one of the best-selling books in history about habits.
2. JCJames Clear
  Because people always need more practical help with implementing their habits, and I have different strategies and different tools to get habits to stick, including one principle that is probably the single most important for building habits, but so much of it is about mastering the art of getting started.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Let's get started then.
4. JCJames Clear
  James Clear is one of the world's leading habit experts. He's educating millions to build lasting habits, master goal-setting, and ultimately redesign their lives. There are four different stages that every habit goes through: cue, craving, response, and reward. So first, we wanna make it obvious. Easier it is to see or get your attention, the more likely you are to act on it. The second is about the craving, and it's all about making it attractive. And the more engaging or exciting it is, the more likely you are to stick with it. The third is to make it easy. The easier a habit is to perform, the more likely it is to happen. And then the fourth and final one is to make it satisfying, and that's about increasing the odds that you do it next time. And there's some tools that we can go through. But one of the big takeaways from Atomic Habits is it's easier to build a new habit if you stack it on top of the habit you're already doing. So let's say that your current habit is you make a cup of coffee, and the new habit that you want to build is you wanna start meditating. So then you could say, "All right. After I make my morning cup of coffee, I will meditate for 60 seconds." And you can do it for anything. There's also a framework that I call HATS, haircuts, and tattoos, the secret to winning, habit shaping, and real lesson of getting one percent better every day, and we can talk about all of them.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  But is there any frameworks, any tactics, if you're trying to break a habit?
6. JCJames Clear
  If you want to break a bad habit, there's some things that you can do.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  James, your book has shaped tens and tens and tens of millions of lives. Is there anything you look back on that you regret?
8. JCJames Clear
  If I could add something, I would add this, because if you really wanna make progress again and again, if you wanna get to the top and stay at the top, you need to be able to...
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  I see messages all the time in the comments section that some of you didn't realize you didn't subscribe, so if you could do me a favor and double check if you're a subscriber to this channel, that would be tremendously appreciated. It's the simple, it's the free thing that anybody that watches this show frequently can do to help us here to keep everything going in this show and the trajectory it's on. So please do double check if you've subscribed and, uh, thank you so much because in a strange way, you are, you're part of our history and you're on this journey with us, and I appreciate you for that. So yeah, thank you. James, you've written thousands and thousands of things, but one particular thing you wrote called Atomic Habits is one of the best-selling books in history. Um, it is rumored to be potentially in the top 100 books that have sold in history of all time, but also rumored to be potentially the youngest book to make the top 100 books in history. My question is, what has the success
2:47 – 5:01
What Atomic Habits Taught Us About Human Behavior
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  of Atomic Habits taught you about the nature of humanity and humans?
2. JCJames Clear
  We all have habits. We all need habits. You know, it's one of those really. It's an interesting concept because it is both universal in the sense that we all have them and we all need them, but it's also highly individual. Your habits feel like your habits, not mine, you know?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
4. JCJames Clear
  And so it's both universal and specific, uh, and that's, that's an interesting contrast, and I think it leads to one of the reasons why people are so interested in the topic. You know, we all have them, we all need them, we all feel like they're our own, and we wanna come up with our little version of them. But the habit also is like an entrance ramp to how you spend your time in other ways, like the habit of pulling out your phone. That habit might only take two seconds to do, but then it might dictate what you do for the next hour. You know, you're-
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
6. JCJames Clear
  ... answering emails or browsing social media or playing a video game or whatever, and it was really the initial habit of pulling out the phone that shaped what that hour did. So the influence of our habits is enormous. You know, in a lot of ways, your, your results in life are kind of a lagging measure of the habits that precede them. You know, like your knowledge is a lagging measure of your reading and learning habits. Your bank account is a lagging measure of your financial habits. Even silly stuff like the amount of clutter in your living room is the lagging measure of your cleaning habits. And so we all so badly want our outcomes to change. You know, we also badly want our results to change, but the results are not actually the thing that needs to change. It's like fix the habits and the results will fix themselves. Change the inputs and the outputs will shift automatically.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  And it's funny because the book has shaped tens and tens and tens of millions of lives, but it also must've shaped you in some ways.
8. JCJames Clear
  Oh, of course. In a way, I had to learn the concepts to write the book. Like I had to build writing habits to write the book. The fact that I have struggled with habits and failed with them, the fact that I've tried things and it hasn't worked out, the fact that I have eventually broken through and I've been able to build habits, that, all of that made the book better because you realize how hard it is to have something practical to say. I actually think, I have this little theory that, uh, a lot of books are branded as how-to books, but they're actually what-to books. They tell you what to think. "You should be confident. You should believe in yourself. You should take XYZ action," but they don't actually tell you how to do
5:01 – 7:36
A Great Way to Stick to Your Habits
1. JCJames Clear
  those things.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And in, and in hindsight, is there anything you look back on that you regret about the book?
3. JCJames Clear
  I don't think there's anything that I regret. If I could add something, I would add something. I would add this simple question, which is, what would it look like if this was fun? What would it look like if your habits were fun? Like the most common New Year's resolution is to do some form of exercise. So, you know, I feel like a lot of people are going to the gym in January because they feel like they should go to the gym or society wants them to go to the gym, you know, or there's some kind of social pressure to go to the gym. But if we were to come up with a list of what it means to be active and fit, you know, and healthy, we could come up with a long list of things. You could go to the gym and lift weights. You could kayak, rock climb, do yoga, pilates, what, like, you know, we could probably sit here for, like, 15 minutes and come up with a real long list. And for most of your habits, if it's an important habit to you, I think it's worth it to take 10 minutes and write that list out and then look at it at the end and say, "What would this look like if it was fun? What's, which of these options is the most fun to me?"And that doesn't mean that your habits will be like the most fun thing that you do each day. You know, it's not like it's always going to feel like going to a concert or something. But it does mean that pretty much any habit can be more fun than the default, you know? So you might as well take a little bit of time to figure out what is the fun version of this. And ultimately, I think the reason why this matters is that if you're having fun, you're more likely to stick with it. You're more likely to persevere. The person who's having fun is actually the person who's dangerous. Like, you don't want to compete with them because they're having a good time. When it gets difficult, they're way more likely to stick with it. The person who it felt like a hassle at the start, was kind of, you know, annoying, they sort of have a negative frame around the, the behavior to begin with, well, as soon as it gets difficult, they didn't want to do it in the first place. So they're much more likely to give up. David Epstein, who's the author of, uh, Range and Sports Genius, friend of mine, um, he told me once, "Grit is fit. Grit is fit." And what he means is that everybody wants to be gritty. They want to persevere. But the way that you display that grit and discipline and perseverance is in areas where you are well-suited, where it's a good fit for you.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
5. JCJames Clear
  If it's a good fit, if you're well-suited for it, if you're having fun, if you're interested and engaged, then you're way more likely to stick with it. And so in a lot of ways, I feel like the biggest hurdle to clear, and this is true maybe for life in general but definitely for habits because everybody wants to be consistent with their habits, everybody wants to stick to them, the biggest hurdle to clear is, are you interested? Are, are you engaged? Are you having fun? And so the more that you can get closer to that, the more fun it can be, the more likely you are to persevere and
7:36 – 11:30
Create the Conditions to Succeed
1. JCJames Clear
  stick with it.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  I was just thinking a- about this idea actually the other day because I, I was writing when we hit a subscriber milestone. I was write... I was trying to think about what actually mattered the most, and one of the, the first thing I wrote was creating the conditions to out-persist.
3. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  And what I mean by that is like create the conditions so that you can do this for long enough that things start compounding in your favor, like learning starts compounding in your favor, like the, the, the returns, like the-
5. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... the subscribers or that could be your finances, whatever, start compounding in your favor.
7. JCJames Clear
  The question that you asked is very similar to one that I ask myself a lot, which is, am I creating the conditions for success? So I had a really good stretch of training in the gym and then, uh, about two and a half years ago, I was in pretty good shape and then I had a year where it was just like really inconsistent. I missed a lot of workouts. Things sometimes would go well, sometimes it wouldn't, whatever. And after that year, I was like, "Okay, so I gotta change something." And on the surface, you look at it and you think, "I'm having trouble with the workouts." You think there's some problem with, you know, exercise. But that was actually not the problem. The problem was I wasn't creating the conditions for success.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. JCJames Clear
  And so there were lots of other things that were intervening and like making, interrupting my day and making it easy for me to miss. So this last year, I hired a trainer and he shows up at 11:00 AM every, you know, four days a week and when he gets there, every single time, it's a hassle because I'm in the middle of something. Um, right? Every time I've got something going on and I kind of am like annoyed by it that he's there, but we're creating the conditions for success and it makes sure that I get down there and I do it and then every time when I get done with the workout, I'm like, "I'm glad I took the time to do that." Um...
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
11. JCJames Clear
  And so nothing really needed to change with the workout. That was not the problem. The problem was I didn't have the right conditions to start the workout.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
13. JCJames Clear
  And so I think this actually reveals a really deep and important thing about habits which is, so much of it is about mastering the art of getting started. It's making it easy to start. In a way, like probably 70% of what's in Atomic Habits are different strategies and different ideas and different tools that help you get started or makes starting easier. This trainer who I've been working with now, he, he came over the other day and he told me, "Yeah, I had a class in the morning. Eight people were supposed to come, but it was like, it was a pretty gross day. It was like rainy and wet and kind of cold and only two people showed up." And I was talking to him about it and I said, "What's interesting to me about that is how little of an edge you need to gain an advantage." You know, really what we're talking about there is you just need to be okay with being inconvenienced or uncomfortable for like five to 10 minutes. Getting dressed, getting through the rain, getting to your car, getting to the gym. The workout is the same that it's always been. It's the same... You're in the same gym that you are in the summer when the weather's beautiful or whatever. So it's really can you handle that like five minutes of inconvenience?
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
15. JCJames Clear
  And so many things in life are like that. Can you master that little moment? And if you can and you can still get started, that's when you gain an advantage. Everybody works out on the good days, but on the days when you feel stressed and tired, on the days when the weather's bad and it's kind of inconvenient, on the days when you don't really feel like it, can you show up? Even if it's in a small way. One of my little mantras that I try to keep in mind is reduce the scope but stick to the schedule. So the normal scope might be I write for 30 minutes and then you look up at the clock and you're like, "Oh, I only have 15." And sometimes what happens in your head is you're like, "Oh, I don't have enough time to write today." Or you're like, "Oh, I was planning to work out for 60 minutes." And you look up and you're like, "Time got away from me. I only have 20 minutes now. I don't have time to go to the gym." It's easy to talk yourself out of it. But reduce the scope, but stick to the schedule. It's like, "Well, I only got 20 minutes instead of 60, so I'll just get in there and do a couple sets of squats and that's it." And I've had so many workouts that have been like that where you're like almost, you know, it's easy to be kind of disappointed that you weren't able to do the whole thing that you wanted to do, but you didn't throw up a zero. And if you don't throw up a zero, you maintain the habit and if you maintain the habit, all you need is time. And so the bad days are more important than the good days in that sense. You need to figure out how do you show up even if what, when it's not
11:30 – 15:47
The 2-Minute Rule: The Most Important Habit-Building Tip
1. JCJames Clear
  optimal.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And that first five minutes, yeah, I was thinking about all the, the first five minute battles that I've won over the last week 'cause I've, you know, I lost track of my workout. I've been traveling through Asia on this tour I've been doing. Got back, fallen off. The motivation doesn't seem to be quite the same as it was (laughs) before I left.
3. JCJames Clear
  (laughs)
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  So it's like I'm dragging myself there. The workouts are like four out of 10. Um, but I went.
5. JCJames Clear
  Yeah.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  And now I'm, I think the momentum is building. But that first five minute point, is there anything that you've learned, any frameworks, any tactics for, for making sure you, you get past that first five minutes so you can get into the, the flow of the habit?
7. JCJames Clear
  Yeah, there's multiple things. So first thing is...... try to prime the environment to make the first action easy. Prime the environment to make the first action easy. So let's say writing, for example. I find that for myself, the biggest point of friction is choosing what to write about. Once I've actually finally settled, this is the thing I'm writing today, then I can get into it and I'm off and running.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. JCJames Clear
  Um, but I'll sit there for two hours just debating whether it's the right thing to be focused on writing or not. You know, should I work on this chapter or should I work on something else or whatever. So what I've started to do is sometimes I will write the first sentence of what I'm gonna write and just leave it on the Google Doc right there and then leave. And the next day when I come back, I'm already in, right? Like it's already... The first sentence is already written so now I'm just writing the next piece of what's coming rather than trying to choose what to write about.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
11. JCJames Clear
  Another one that I've done sometimes is I will write... Sometimes I'll write the topic or I'll write the sentence on a Post-It note and I'll put it on top of the keyboard. And so when I come into the office, it's right there in front of... I can't, you know, I gotta pick it off the keys to log on to the computer. And so it's like, "Remember, this is what you're writing about right now." You know?
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
13. JCJames Clear
  So it's just trying to make it easy to get in. I have a bunch of readers who do stuff like set their running out- running clothes out the night before, you know, so they're right next to the bed, you got your clothes and your shoes there. I... One woman I just talked to, uh, her, at an event. She came up afterward and she said, "I actually sleep in my running clothes."
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
15. JCJames Clear
  And then just get out (laughs) and get... and put her shoes on and goes right out the door. But you're trying to prime the environment to make the action easy. Okay? So how can you set up the spaces that you're in, uh, to prime those habits? I think one really interesting question to ask, walk into the rooms where you spend most of your time each day, your office, your living room, your bedroom, and then look around and ask yourself, "What is this space designed to encourage? What behaviors are easy here? What behaviors are obvious here?" And the good habits that you say you want to build, are those the path of least resistance? Is that the obvious thing in this environment? And if not, maybe you can make some adjustments to try to make the good habit easier and the distractions maybe a little bit harder. So that's first thing, prime the environment to make the action easy. Second thing is if there's like one principle that is probably the single most important for building habits, it's make it easy. Just scale it down and make it easy. I refer to it sometimes as the two-minute rule. So take whatever habit you're trying to work on, you scale it down to something that takes two minutes or less to do. Read 30 books a year becomes read one page, or do yoga four days a week becomes take out my yoga mat. Sometimes I will mention this to people and they resist a little bit. You know, they're like, "Okay, buddy." Like, "I know the real goal isn't just to take my yoga mat out, you know. No, I'm actually trying to do the workout." So this is some kind of mental trick and I know it's a trick, then why would I fall for it basically? But there's this guy, I mentioned him in Atomic Habits, his name is Mitch, and he went to the gym and for the first six weeks, he had this strange little rule for himself where he wasn't allowed to stay for longer than five minutes.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
17. JCJames Clear
  So he'd get in the car, drive to the gym, get out, do half an exercise, get back in the car, drive home. And you're like, "This sounds silly," right? Uh, clearly, this is not gonna get the guy the results that he wants. But what you realize is that he was mastering the art of showing up, right? He was becoming the type of person that went to the gym four days a week even if it was only for five minutes. And so I think this is kind of a deep truth about habits which is a habit must be established before it can be improved. You know, it has to become the standard in your life before you optimize and scale it up into something more. There's that quote from Ed Latimer where he says, "The heaviest weight at the gym is the front door."
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
19. JCJames Clear
  You know, there are a lot of things in life that are like that. And so by trying to make it easy to master, easy to get started, um, then you're in the game, now you're in the arena. There's all kinds of things you can
15:47 – 18:05
Small Steps That Lead to Big Progress
1. JCJames Clear
  improve from there.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  I remember, um, Jordan Peterson saying, talking about hi- some of his clinical, um, patients and referring to one in particular who was in a room full of junk and couldn't leave the room because of a certain fear and certain psychological problems he had, and Jordan saying that day one, they just brought the Hoover into the room and that was it. Day two, they plugged the Hoover in and that was it. And then by day, like, 30, the guy is out of the room, the room is clean, and he's walking around outside for the first time in, in months or years. And he goes on to say that the reason why people don't get started is because the first step is so embarrassing-
3. JCJames Clear
  Hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... people think that it's not worth it or that it's like shameful to do. It's like almost like patronizingly embarrassing. And, um, I've always kept that in mind, uh, since then and when... from your work as well, just that assume the first steps are like embarrassingly small.
5. JCJames Clear
  There's this process called habit shaping which is, is basically like that. Um, you know, like if you wanna run a half marathon, the first day, the step might be to put on your running shoes. And then the second day, the step is to, like, walk outside the front door. And the third day, the step is to go around the block. And, you know, you're just like gradually shaping into this, this larger habit. But there's this thing that happens when people think about building better habits. I think particularly ambitious people, it's very easy to get excited about all the changes you can make. You start thinking... Even if you don't say this explicitly, you think like what would peak performance look like? You know, if I could really get my habits dialed in, what could I do? And you start imagining five, six, seven things that you would do and what all of them would look like in their perfect form and so on. And I think instead of asking ourselves, "What could I do on my best day?" it's better to start by asking, "What can I stick to even on the bad days?" And that becomes your baseline. That becomes the first step. And now that you have this floor that is achievable even when you're tired, even when you're exhausted, even when you don't have much time, now you can show up and feel like you're succeeding, you know, and then you can progress from there. One of the most motivating feelings to the human mind is a feeling of progress. If you feel like you're making progress even if it's smaller than what you ultimately hope to do, you have every reason to move forward. But often, we become like a victim of our expectations. We ex- we spend all this time optimizing the perfect plan and then expect things to go perfectly out of the gate. And, uh, you had it so built up in your mind that once you don't hit that mark in the fi- first or second or third day, it falls apart.
18:05 – 20:46
Don't Waste Time: Hats, Haircuts, and Tattoos Framework
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm. And you talked earlier about sitting there for two hours thinking about what to write. I, I think I've learned through, through business in, in the first situation of my career where I worked with CEOs and executives that were...... planning marketing campaigns that actually, in hindsight, often the biggest cost, it wasn't being wrong, it was the time you waste making a decision. You see this in... if you've ever... you've interacted with so many big corporations.
2. JCJames Clear
  Yeah.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like, they spend 18 months thinking about... get... waiting for Joanna to come back from annual leave, to get procurement to sign off the thing. And I worked with this one particular founder during that season of my life who... where I was working with his dad and him. And his dad would take nine months 'cause he- the company was so big. His son would interrupt me halfway through the idea and call us all in and say, "Do it now." And he taught me that, actually, in life, the, the biggest cost is the time you waste making the decision. And I think about that with my own habits. I think sometimes sitting around thinking about whether I'm going to run today is costing me much more than doing nothing. (laughs) And do you think about how you kill that d- mental debate? Like, i- is that an effective strategy to try and kill the debate and not make a decision per se?
4. JCJames Clear
  Yeah. So speed is perpetually undervalued, that's for sure. Life is short. And so the sooner that you make decisions, the sooner you get information. Now I will say I, I have a little framework that I call hats, haircuts, and tattoos. And this is how, how I kind of think about it. So a lot of decisions are like hats. Just try, you try one hat. If you don't like it, take it off, you can try another. It's just real quick. Y- you know, you get some information. Speed is most important. Move quickly, get some information, learn something. If it was wrong, it's not that big of a deal. Just take it off and put a new hat on. Haircut is a little bit trickier. It's a, it's a decision that you have to live with for a little bit. You know, like, you're okay if you get a bad haircut, but you're gonna, you're gonna have to live with it for a month or two. You know, it's a- it's gonna take a little bit of time for it to grow out. And so it's probably not a big deal to be scared of getting a bad haircut. I think a lot of people probably talk themselves out of it. It's like, "You'll be fine in a month. It's, it's fine." Tattoos are trickier. You know, you get a tattoo, you got to live with that choice. It's permanent. And so if a... really what we're getting at here is, is the choice reversible or is the choice irreversible? If the choice is easy to reverse, speed is most important. You should move fast. If it's hard to reverse and you got to live with it, then you need to think carefully before you make the call.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
6. JCJames Clear
  Um, and I think probably what you're seeing, uh, through some of your experiences is that most decisions in life are hats and haircuts. It's very rare that you end up with a tattoo.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  But we treat them all like tattoos.
8. JCJames Clear
  We... Yeah, we... Uh, I think, in particular, we are, we are scared, particularly the bad haircuts, I think. The ones that, like, linger for just a little bit, but not that long, it's like, it's going to take you a month to fix this if i- if you get it wrong, but, like, that's fine. A month's going to pass anyway. Um, and so it's not that big of a deal, but we, we act like it's a bigger deal than it is.
20:46 – 22:16
The Most Impactful Story from the Atomic Habits Community
1. JCJames Clear
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Is there a particular case study or story from a, a, a Atomic Habits community member or someone that reads your newsletter that has been the most impactful for you?
3. JCJames Clear
  There's not a single one. There are lots that I'm, like, proud of or really excited by, ones I'm surprised by. Um, I heard from a guy the other day, he was the head coach at St. Olaf's University in Minnesota and... men's soccer. And when he came in, their record was something like 5 and 13, and they were, you know, like, near the bottom of the standings. And he was like, "I read Atomic Habits right around the time I took this job, and we came up with systems for everything we did. We taught our players systems for how they tie their shoes and cleats to get ready for the game. We taught them systems for how they prep for practice. We taught them systems for their role on the field." And, uh, you know, gradually they improved each year, 5 and 13, then they went like 8 and 8. And then the next year after that, they won the conference. And then the year after that, they went to the NCAA Sweet 16, and then five years later, they won the national championship. You know, of course, stuff like that's awesome to hear about, right? You know, like, they went from, they went from five wins, uh, and, and then five years later, they win the national title. But the ones that matter to me the most are the ones that I hear from somebody and they say, um, "I finally feel better." You know, or, "I feel different. I look in the mirror and I'm, like, proud of who I am," or, uh, "My kids tell me that they're excited to see, you know, the change in me," or things like that. And that's what it's always been about. You know, it's always been about becoming the type of person that you want to be. And so I think, uh, anytime I, I hear stories like that, I, I think it's
22:16 – 24:36
The Difference Between a System and a Goal
1. JCJames Clear
  exciting.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  So when this... Um, was it a coach or was it-
3. JCJames Clear
  Yeah, Travis Wall, he's the head coach at St. Olaf's. Um, he's the head coach at Kenyon, uh, now.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  So he talked about systems there. Most of us think about to-do lists and goals and those kinds of things. What, what is the difference between a system and a goal?
5. JCJames Clear
  I was very goal-driven for a long time. I, I mean, I probably still am. You know, I don't think there's any way to get around the fact that we all have goals and think about the outcomes we want and so on. But a goal is about the outcome that you want to achieve, and a system is about the process for getting there. And so your goal is the target, the outcome, the thing you're shooting for. Your system is the collection of daily habits that you follow. And if there is ever a gap between your goal and your system, if there's ever a gap between your desired outcome and your daily habits, your daily habits will always win. You know? And so almost by definition, your current habits are perfectly designed to deliver your current results. You know, if you want to see, like, where you're gonna end up, just follow the trajectory of your habits. You know, what's the process you've been running for the last six months or year or two years and they've carried you, almost inevitably, to the outcomes that you have right now? Now, I'm not saying that habits are the only thing that matter in life, right? Like, strategy matters, luck, randomness, uh, those misfortune, those things can influence the outcome. But by definition, luck and randomness are not under your control.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. JCJames Clear
  And your habits are. And the only reasonable, rational approach in life is to focus on the pieces that are within your control. So I think goals can be good for setting a sense of direction, they're good for clarity, you know, especially if you have a team, get everybody rowing in the same direction. But once you've decided what the goal is, you should basically set it on the shelf, metaphorically speaking, and spend the vast majority of your time focused on building a better system. How are the habits we're executing each day moving us closer to this outcome that we want? And so where I've come... After talking about this for five or six years now, since the book's been out, where I've come down on it is, goals are best for people who care about winning once. Systems are best for people who care about winning repeatedly.... if you really want to make progress again and again, if you want to get to the top and stay at the top, you need some process for staying up there, some collection of habits that's going to keep, uh, this machine running. So this is why, you know, I say in the book we don't rise to the level of our goals, we fall to the level of our systems.
24:36 – 27:04
How to Create Systems to Achieve What You Want
1. JCJames Clear
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  As you were talking, I was thinking so much about, about business and founders and entrepreneurs because they all have big goals and, uh, we want to build the best AI app or the best, I don't know, restaurant and we, they stay really focused on those. But the great- the greatest founders that I think I've met and interviewed on this show are actually really orientated on, like, what you call in the book first principles and systems.
3. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Is there a way to, to become more orientated towards systems and, and thinking about first principles? Like, the, the habits that lead to the goal? Is... or is it just, s- just so that some people have it? Y- 'cause, like, Elon Musk is always talking about first principles and he thinks in terms of building the system.
5. JCJames Clear
  I do think some of it is personality and, like, what you, what's exciting to you to think about. Like, some people are very future-oriented and like thinking about what the systems are and what that would lead them to and, and so on. Um, or more process-oriented. But there are a number of questions that you can ask that can help you figure out, like, what systems you should be focused on, you know. So, like, a couple of the ones I like, one question is, "Can my current habits carry me to my desired future?" So, I mean, you have a bunch of habits you're following right now, what tr- what path are you on? You know, can your current habits take you there? And, uh, they could be either way. Like, sometimes the answer is yes and what you need is patience, you just need to keep, you know, staying on the path. But sometimes the answer is no, and then obviously something needs to change. You know, you're hoping for one outcome, but then you're following a different lifestyle.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm.
7. JCJames Clear
  So to want the outcome without the lifestyle is to, like, torture yourself. And what really matters is not do you want the, the result. A- a- anybody would like the result if you just hand it to them. The question is, do you want the lifestyle? One of the little things I try to do whenever I have a new business project that I'm thinking about or something I'm, I'm excited about potentially doing, the first question I ask is, "How do I want to spend my days?" And so then you, like, draw a box and inside that box, how can we make the most money, reach the most people, make the biggest impact, you know, make the contribution that you want to make. But not outside of it. And what happens a lot of the time is people do that in reverse. They start by asking, "How can we make the most money or reach the most people or make the biggest impact?"
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm.
9. JCJames Clear
  And then they decide, "Oh, well, this is what I want to do." But you're, it's actually outside of how they want to spend their days and it's not gonna work out well because, you know, it goes back to our point, uh, previously about is this fun? You know, the, if the, if they don't want to spend their time that way, you're just grinding for a little while and eventually it's not gonna work. That's the key for building systems that really work is, is this how you want to spend your days? The person who wants to live the lifestyle is much better positioned to get the result.
27:04 – 27:59
Winners and Losers Have the Same Goals
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  You say that, um, there are multiple problems with, with goals as a, I guess as a rubric for thinking about what to do or what to aim for. One of them is that winners and losers have the same goals.
2. JCJames Clear
  Everybody wants the results. Let's say you have 100 people apply for a job, you got a new job opening.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
4. JCJames Clear
  Presumably every candidate has the goal of getting the job. The goal is not the thing that determines the outcome, so the person who wins and the 99 people who lose, they have the same goals. You look at the Olympic Games. Presumably any event, everybody who's competing has the goal of winning the Olympic medal, right? Of winning the gold. So the goal is not the thing that makes the difference. So again, winners and losers have the same goals. So if they have the same goals, they cannot be the thing that make the difference in their performance. It has to be something else. Maybe having a goal is part of it, maybe it's necessary, but it's not sufficient for the outcome that you want. And for that, what you need is a system. You need a collection of habits that are gonna make the difference, um, and, uh, and accumulate into
27:59 – 28:41
Can Goals Make You Unhappy?
1. JCJames Clear
  a bigger outcome.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And you say goals restrict your happiness.
3. JCJames Clear
  There's some implicit promise internally that once I get to this goal, then I'll be happy. You know, once I write a New York Times bestseller, then I'll feel better about it. You know, once I achieve this certain number on the scale, then I'll be happy with my body. Once I get to a million dollars in revenue, then I'll be happy with the business. And so you're kind of constantly pushing happiness off to the next milestone and thinking that once you get there, then finally you'll be satisfied. But I think in fact the better way to do it is to fall in love with the process, to fall in love with the lifestyle, then you can be happy along the way and still achieve the goals as you go, still achieve the milestones. For a long time, I wrestled,
28:41 – 31:13
Do You Need Dissatisfaction to Stay Driven?
1. JCJames Clear
  I had trouble with this question of do I have to be dissatisfied if I want to be driven?
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs) Yeah.
3. JCJames Clear
  Do you have to be dissatisfied to be driven? Because t- to me, I felt like there's where I'm at right now and there's where I want to be, and so there's this gap and th- that gap is dissatisfaction. That gap is, you know, you're, you want it to change, you want it to close. And it's also what is motivating and driving you is to try to close that gap. And so the healthiest answer, maybe the answer is yes, I don't know. But, uh, the healthiest answer that I've come up with is imagine like an acorn falls from a tree. It manages to take root, becomes a seedling and then a sapling and eventually grows into this mature oak tree. And at no point in that process, when it was just an acorn it wasn't criticizing itself for not being a sapling, and when it was just a sapling it wasn't criticizing itself for not being an oak. Um, it wasn't dissatisfied with where it was at. And nobody came over and was criticizing it for, "Oh, I can't believe you're not a full-grown tree yet." But it kept growing the whole time. So simultaneously you have this thing where it was both perfect at each stage that it was at, nothing was wrong, and yet it continued to grow. And the reason is because that's just what an oak tree does. That's what it is encoded to do. It is encoded for growth. And so when I look at myself, I think if I put myself in the right position, that's how I feel about it, you know. I, I am perfectly happy with where I'm at at each stage and yet I'm encoded to grow, right? I'm encoded to keep going. And so I can both be driven and be satisfied. I can both be appreciative of the moment and still moving forward, and I think that works best when you find that thing, sometimes we call it your strengths, sometimes we might say it's what you're encoded to do, uh, but when you find that thing that is well-aligned for you. And if you do find that, then you can have both of those.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  I love that.I love that. And I think with, with age and maturity, I've gotten closer to being in that region where I'm well aware nothing is going to make me happier at all.
5. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Like, no accomplishment in the future, nothing's going to change anything. (laughs) But at the same time, I'm still striving, and, uh, that does feel like a contradiction to some degree. It feels like, how can those two things be true at the same time? That you're striving for things that you know won't really move the needle in any- any way. The difference I see between, like, me and something in nature is that I... the thing in nature probably isn't comparing itself on Instagram to, like-
7. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... (laughs) everyone else. And I understand humans to be, like, comparison machines, kind of how we understand the value of things. Like, I understand the value of the steak on a menu by the- the cheap steak and the most expensive one, so I think the middle one is probably right.
31:13 – 32:10
How Detrimental Is Comparison to Others?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do you think much about comparison as a motivating or demotivating force in this picture?
2. JCJames Clear
  I think it can be very helpful and also- it can also be very harmful. So, it's just sort of a- a sense of how you use it. I tend to find it better if you compare small things. So, if you compare marketing strategies or squat form or, you know, writing style or, uh, you know, the first sentence of each chapter, like, "How do I have a good intro?" If you compare tactics, then that can be really helpful for building skills and for developing your ability. If you compare big things, marriage, net worth, you know, things like that, it's like, that's just kind of a recipe for ending up unhappy, um, because they- Mm-hmm. ... as the scale gets bigger, things get more vague. There's so many things involved in marriage and so, you know, or net worth or whatever, you- you just see one little slice and you ch- are trying to compare these two big things but you don't even know what the full picture is.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Ah, okay.
4. JCJames Clear
  Uh, and so, comparison is like the teacher of skills when it's applied narrowly, but it's the thief of joy when it's applied broadly.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  That makes sense, yeah. Earlier
32:10 – 35:26
Which Habit Should You Start With?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  on, when you said that, you know, ambitious people, they have lots of aspirations, lots of habits they want to start, I was thinking about myself and thinking, there's probably 30 habits that I would like to acquire. I'd want to be better at writing, I want to be a runner, I want to be better at speaking, I want to be a better friend and be more, um, attentive with my friends and make sure I text them on their birthdays and sh- you know-
2. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... all of these new habits that I want to pursue. How does one know which one to aim for first? Is there a framework for knowing?
4. JCJames Clear
  Yeah. There- there's some things that you can do. I don't think, um... to your point earlier about, uh, sometimes the riskiest things just take a long time making the decision. You know, if you-
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
6. JCJames Clear
  ... maybe you should just pick one and work on it, and then you can get onto the next one. But I do think there's some level of strategy, which is, a good place to start is by asking yourself which habits are upstream from other good things happening. So, for example, I know that if- if you were... maybe the- maybe the question to start with is, when you live a good day, when you feel dialed in, when things are, like, rolling along well for you, what tends to be part of that day?
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Sleep.
8. JCJames Clear
  You know? S- okay.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
10. JCJames Clear
  Great. So that's... you know? I would say, for me, sleep's- sleep is definitely one. I would say, uh, getting my workout in-
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
12. JCJames Clear
  ... and usually reading and writing are a part of it, but I think I could just boil it down to reading. If I just read, like, 10 pages, that often sparks the writing. It's like, uh, to m- reading is like the fuel for writing, for me. So- so I could say get a workout in and read for five minutes or 10 minutes. Those are the two things that are part of a good day. And what happens is, they're upstream from a lot of other good things happening. For example, if I get the workout in, yeah, I feel good, I get the benefits of the workout, but I also have a post-workout high for, like, an hour or two, so I- my focus and concentration is better. I sleep better at night because I got the workout in, now I'm tired.
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
14. JCJames Clear
  I tend to eat better when I work out. It's when I'm not working out that I eat terribly. (laughs)
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yes. (laughs)
16. JCJames Clear
  So that's why... I don't know, it's kind of like I don't want to waste it or something. So, at no point was I trying to build better focus habits or sleep habits or nutrition habits. Those just came kind of a na- as a natural consequence of getting the workout in.
17. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
18. JCJames Clear
  So, what are those things that you do that are upstream from other good things happening? I think those are good, like, anchor habits to start and focus on. The- if I could add another one for myself, I would say it's a little bit of time... it's really just time to think, but it's- it's time to reflect and review. There's this interesting thing that happens if you- if you have a really good work ethic, if you have a strong work ethic and working hard has gotten you far in life, it kind of becomes a crutch. You know, you... for- for a long time, I was like, if I ever had a problem, I was like, "Well, I'll just work my way out of it." You know? "I'll just- just work harder on it until I figure it out." And that- that's great. That's really powerful for a lot of things. But at some point, it breaks, you know? Like, you can maybe, if you really tried, maybe you can work 10% harder or 20% harder, but there's some limit. But if you work on the right thing, well you could get 100X the result or 1,000X the result. And so if you just keep your head down and work hard, it's very unlikely that you'll be spending your time in the highest and best way.
19. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
20. JCJames Clear
  And the only way to figure that out is to have time to reflect and review, time to think. You know? So you need enough time to think to figure out, "What should I be focused on next?" And so I think that is alm- al- it's almost... reflection and review is almost like the meta-habit that is above all others, because if you give yourself time to reflect and review, then you can troubleshoot your habits and figure out how to adjust them.
35:26 – 37:31
The Most Overlooked Things About Habits
1. JCJames Clear
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  I was thinking as you were saying that- that- that time to reflect and review is actually also a r- review of, "Are my current systems moving me closer?" Because-
3. JCJames Clear
  Right.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... when- when- when you're talking about that, I was thinking of times in my life where I was so close to, like, the picture and I was so in the trenches doing the thing that I hadn't come up to even say, "Actually, is there a system I could put in place to solve this problem-"
5. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  "... over the next five or 10 years?" Like, for example, "Is there a person I need to hire?"
7. JCJames Clear
  Yeah.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  "So actually, should I go into the hiring process versus be in there fixing the problem myself? Should I spend 10 hours this week hire- on hiring a candidate to do this, or should I be doing it?"
9. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  But sometimes you get so caught up in the trenches when- especially when things are tough and- and difficult and moving very quickly that you don't review your systems. And also, when you're t- talking about systems, I thought about how systems sometimes expire.
11. JCJames Clear
  Sure. Yeah.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Because things change.
13. JCJames Clear
  That's a great point, and I think this is probably one of the most overlooked things with habits. A lot of the time when someone sits down and they want to build a new habit, they don't say this, but what they kind of assume is, what it would mean to be successful with this habit is that I do it for the rest of my life. You know? And that if, at some point, I'm not doing it, then that must mean that I failed or I quit on it.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
15. JCJames Clear
  But that's not how it is at all. Like, things have a season, you know? And so habits sh- have to sh- change shape over time.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
17. JCJames Clear
  Let's take my, um, my writing habit, for example. I... the habit that launched my career was I wrote a new article every Monday and Thursday, and I did that for three years. So, the first three years, 150 articles.... you know, write twice a week. That was a great habit. They were, like, 2,000-word pieces or so. But then I signed the book deal for Atomic Habits, and I didn't have the capacity to do that and also write the book, so that had to change. I wrote the book for, like, three years, and then the book came out, and now I write a newsletter once a week, and that's much shorter. But I kind of feel like my writing habit is maintained that whole time, it just changed shape. But that's fine. It just needed to shift based on the season. But I don't know. People... They get so attached to one form of a habit sometimes that they don't realize that it's no longer serving them.
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
19. JCJames Clear
  And I think that's the... one of the trickier things to give up, is a habit that used to be good for you, that used to work well, but no longer serves you in your current season. Y- it's... I find that I'm kind of a slow learner with that.
37:31 – 38:15
Big Life Changes
1. JCJames Clear
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  I guess parents can probably really relate 'cause they're forced to basically change their goals, and therefore, their systems would have to... I mean, a- you, you're a father of three, so y- you probably know this much better than I do, but have, has there been systems that you've had to sort of...
3. JCJames Clear
  I think there's lots of, uh, inflection points in life, so having kids is one of them. Uh, starting a new job, moving to a new city, you know, it can be big stuff like that. I just talked to a mother who, her kids moved out, so she's now an empty nester. You know, she's like, "Last 25 years, I've been parenting all these kids, and now, finally, they're all out." But it feels al- in some sense, it almost feels like a loss of identity. Uh, you know, you're like, "I, I thought I was one thing, and now, you know, it feels like things have shifted." Um, but also just signals a, an inflection point in life and a new season that you're in. And when your seasons change, your habits often need to change
38:15 – 41:00
The 4 Burners Theory: You Can't Do Everything
1. JCJames Clear
  with it.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  And you talk about this, um, four burners theory-
3. JCJames Clear
  Mm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... which I guess dovetails into what we're talking about here, where you, you use this to kind of think about what habits to pursue in any season of life. But also, a phrase that I've heard, um, so often, specifically from mothers on the show, comes to mind, which is that you can't have it all at the same time.
5. JCJames Clear
  Mm.
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  And I've heard that f- I think four or five times. Different mothers in particular, which is... I mean, it says something about society-
7. JCJames Clear
  Yeah.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... have, have said to me that they've had to realize that they can't have it all at the same time.
9. JCJames Clear
  For sure. So this is not my concept. This is this idea that I came across called the four burners theory, and it breaks life into these four burners on a stove. So you have work and career is one. You have family, friends, and then personal health, or, you know, uh, your, yourself basically is the other. The idea is that for the burners to really be going well, you can't have all four on at the same time. You have to choose-
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  And burner being the stove.
11. JCJames Clear
  The stove, yeah. Yeah, the stovetop. So you, you have... You can choose. You could have three going on at kind of like a mid-level, but if you really want them to do well, you can only have two on at the same time. And I... You know, who knows? I, I don't know if it's true or not or whatever, but it's an interesting idea. And what it does is it gets you to realize, yeah, a fundamental part of life is trade-offs, and you cannot be good at everything at the same time. So this is true across projects. If you choose tr- to do seven things at once, spreading yourself thin in seven different ways. Very hard to be excellent. For me, what I think about is life has a series of seasons, and life has a series of sequences. So let's say... It's not, it's not always exactly 10 years, but let's say the big movements in life are roughly 10-year buckets, right? So, like, for me, building my first business, that was kind of like a 10-year thing, and eventually, it led to the launch of Atomic Habits. You maybe get five or six of those in your adult life. Some of those things make sense to do in a different order than others. Like, if you wanna travel the world and see a bunch of places and party in Ibiza, you're probably not gonna do that in your 60s. You know, like... I mean, m- you can. There's no... Nobody's saying you can't, but i- i- some things are probably better sequenced in other, you know, in other spots. Obviously, there's... You know, especially for women, there's a certain limit on if you wanna have a family, what decades that happens in. So, yeah, it's just a, it's just a matter of sequencing and prioritization. If you look at the, like, tapestry of your life, what do you want the big movements to be, and where do those seasons need to slot in? Um, yeah. It's a-
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm.
13. JCJames Clear
  It's a... Th- there is no right answer, but it's interesting that as soon as you realize it's a finite number, and as soon as you realize that trade-offs are always gonna be a reality, you have to deal with that in some way. Um, I've decided that right now, while my kids are young, like, I'm, I'm gonna turn the career burner down. And that's fine. It's not gonna be how it was for the last 10 years, but that's okay, 'cause they're only five once. You know, they're only turning six once. They only go to second grade once, and I, I wanna be there for all that. So, um, there are always trade-offs.
41:00 – 41:47
Sequencing Your Life: When to Do What
1. JCJames Clear
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  I think that, that sequence point is super, super interesting. It got me thinking because you're right. There are sort of some constraints, whether they're biological constraints, or in the case of your kids, like, just natural constraints that mean this s- this season can only happen now.
3. JCJames Clear
  Here, right.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
5. JCJames Clear
  There's also some things like, um... You know, both of us are fairly young entrepreneurs. I'm so glad that I started a business in my 20s rather than my 50s. Um, doesn't mean you can't do it in your 50s. There's no- nobody's saying you can't. It's just that it makes things a lot easier for the next decade. You know, it's easier for me to be there for my kids now 'cause I have control of my time because I did the business part in the previous decade. And so-
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  'Cause you took the risks.
7. JCJames Clear
  Yeah. And, and that doesn't mean it's always gonna work out or whatever. It doesn't mean that you're gonna be able to perfectly plan it all, but you just see how the sequences can, um, can stack up in that way.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  And how
41:47 – 43:45
Does It Really Take 66 Days to Form a Habit?
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  important do you think, when we're talking about habits, do you think repetition is? Because there's so many of these sort of well-known, uh, concepts or frameworks in habit formation. One of them is that habits take roughly 66 days. One of them is that it's about repetition. Does repetition really matter?
2. JCJames Clear
  It definitely does. I mean, repetition is how habits form. Uh, the 66 days number comes from one study that came out that found that, on average, it took about 66 days to build a habit. If you look at the study, uh, the range is pretty wide. So if you pick something really simple, like drinking a glass of water, um, at lunch each day-
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm.
4. JCJames Clear
  ... that might only take two or three weeks to form. If you look at something more complicated, like, um, going for a run after work every day, that might take seven or eight or nine months to form. And so I don't know that 66 days really tells you anything. It doesn't, it doesn't tell you that this is how long it's gonna take for your habit to stick. I mean, it... The range is wide. Sometimes when people ask me, "How long does it take to form a habit?" my answer is, "Forever." Because if you stop doing it, then it's no longer a habit. And what I'm kind of getting at with that is that habits are not a finish line to be crossed. They're a lifestyle to be lived.... you know? And so, we approach our habits as if it's a finish line, "Oh, let me do this 30-day cleanse and then I'll be healthy. Let me do this 90-day sprint and then the product will be shipped, I won't have to worry about it anymore." You know? And it's like most things in life, especially the big important things, they're endless. They're endless battles, you know? So just because you went to the gym yesterday earns you no bo- bonus points for tomorrow. Like, you still have to show up tomorrow. Just because you were a good spouse yesterday earns you no bonus points for tomorrow. You still have to be loving and caring again. Um, and so all the things that really matter are endless battles, and it's not about crossing a finish line, it's about living that kind of lifestyle. And so, yes, it is true that repetition matters, and yes, it is true that the habits will become more seamless and automatic and maybe a little less effortful as you repeat them more, but that doesn't mean that you'll never have to think about them or, you know, worry about them again.
43:45 – 46:45
Why Habits Get Easier Over Time
1. JCJames Clear
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Do you think much about what's going on in the brain when repetition occurs? Like, what is it that's making it easier? If I've, if I've been on a, on a roll with the gym, I've been going for 60 days in a row, why does it feel easier on day 61?
3. JCJames Clear
  That's a tricky question because, um, if you were to talk to an academic and they would tell you, like, a habit is this automatic non-conscious behavior, really quick, simple things, like brushing your teeth, tying your shoes, every time you pick up a pair of barbecue tongs, you gotta tap them together twice, you know, like stuff that you don't even really think about. Okay? That's actual habitual behavior. But if I were to ask you, "What are some habits you're trying to build?" You would say, "I'm trying to go to the gym four days a week," or, "I'm trying to write every morning," or, "I'm trying to meditate, you know, five days a week," or whatever. And I know what you mean when you say that. You mean, "I want it to be this routine, this practice that I do consistently." But, like, writing every day is never gonna be mindless the way that brushing your teeth is. You know, uh, going to the gym is not gonna be automatic the way that tying your shoes might be. And so the things that we... There's a little bit of sloppiness in the word habits and how we use it in life. It's not, they're not automatic mindless routines most of the time. Most of the things that we want to be habits are not like reflexes, they're routines and rituals that we do consistently.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
5. JCJames Clear
  So having said that, it is true that after you've gone to the gym for a month or two, it does start to get easier. And I think there's a number of forces that kind of work in your favor there. One is, you've figured a lot out about, uh, what it takes to get into the gym. "What time am I going? What route do I take? How do I pack my bag? Do I need to bring a water bottle or is there a water fountain at the gym?" Like, all those sorts of things are little one-time costs that you gotta figure out early on-
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. JCJames Clear
  ... that once you're into a pattern, you already know them. You know, the water bottle thing sounds like a small thing. I heard from someone who said, "I always forget to bring my water bottle and they don't have water fountains at this gym, so, like, I, I, sometimes I skip the workout because of that." You know? It's like, it's remarkable how little friction it takes to pull us off course.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. JCJames Clear
  And so figuring out all of those things is something that once you're a month or two in, you've crossed all, you've, you know, you've fought all those battles and now you know how to do it. So that makes it easier. The other thing is you start to build friendships, start to build connections, you start to know the people there, you feel comfortable there. There's this concept Steven Pressfield talks about where, um, you know, if you have a wolf and it's roaming around, uh, eventually it starts to feel like it has its territory. And early on in the process, the creative process of writing a book or whatever, you go into the office the first time to write the first chapter of the book and you kinda feel uncomfortable, it feels like it's not you yet.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
11. JCJames Clear
  G- you go to the gym on the first day, you feel like people are judging you, g- do I look stupid? I don't know how to do this. But after a while, it becomes your territory. It's just like the wolf. It starts to feel like your home court. And so that familiarity, I think, also makes it much easier to stick to the habits, you know, once you start to feel comfortable there, and that takes a little bit of time. And then the last piece is identity. Uh, the more that you start to follow this habit, the more you repeat a habit, the more you reinforce being that type of person, the more you start to have that element of your story.
46:45 – 48:51
How Habits Reinforce Your Desired Identity
1. JCJames Clear
  I think this is one of the most important things for building habits and getting habits to stick, which is how your habits reinforce your desired identity. We often start by asking, "What do I wish to achieve?" But I think what we sh- really should start with is, "Who do I wish to become? What are my actions reinforcing? What are my actions taking me closer toward?" In a sense, every action you take is like a vote for the type of person you wish to become. So, no, doing one pushup does not transform your body, but it does cast a vote for, "I'm the type of person who doesn't miss workouts." And no, writing one sentence does not finish a novel, but it does cast a vote for, "I'm a writer." And no, sending one bit of positive feedback does not make you, like, the world's best leader, but it does cast a vote for, "I'm the type of leader who cares about their teammates." And individually, those are small things, but collectively, you build up this body of evidence for being that kind of person.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
3. JCJames Clear
  It's a little bit different than what you often hear. Like, you'll often hear people say something like, um, "Fake it till you make it."
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
5. JCJames Clear
  And, uh, I don't necessarily have anything wrong with fake it till you make it. Like, it's, um, asking you to believe something positive about yourself. But behavior and beliefs are a two-way street. And so what you believe influences the actions you will take, and the actions you take also influences what you w- will believe. And my encouragement, my suggestion is to start with the action, to let the behavior lead the way. To make one sales call or meditate for one minute or do one pushup and let that, in that moment, be evidence that you were that type of person. You know, if you go outside today and you shoot a basketball for five minutes, you don't instantly think, "Oh, I'm a basketball player." But if you do it every day for the next three months or six months or a year, at some point, you cross this invisible threshold where you have to admit, "I guess playing basketball is, like, kind of an important part of who I am. You know, I guess it's part of my identity." And once you adopt a habit as part of your story, once it becomes part of how you see yourself, it's not just like, "I need to go for a run," it's like, "I am a runner." You know, "I go, I do this because it's part of who I am." Then you'll fight to maintain the habit, right? Like then, then it becomes easier for it to stick. And so the connection between habits and identity, I think, is ultimately how you really get habits to stick for the long run.
48:51 – 50:13
The Importance of Identity in Habit Formation
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  It re- reminds me of a study I was reading recently that said if you speak to someone in terms of giving them i- an identity versus...... using a word as an adjective, the behavior occurs. So an example would be, if I- you do something for me and I say, "Do you know what, James? You are a kind person."
2. JCJames Clear
  Mm.
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  In the studies, people become more kind. But if I say, "That was kind."
4. JCJames Clear
  Yeah.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Or, "That action was kind," people are less kind. So if I-
6. JCJames Clear
  That's interesting.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  If I can give you feedback that embodies your identity, then you're more lik- likely for that behavior to occur. So with my team, and this is maybe giving a bit of a- the game away, I will often refer to them as an identity. I will say, "You are an innovator."
8. JCJames Clear
  Mm.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  "You are an experimenter." Because from the studies I've read, that increases-
10. JCJames Clear
  That's true.
11. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... the probability that they embody that identity.
12. JCJames Clear
  There's another study that, um, did it for voting. So people were more likely to go and vote if you said, like, "I am a voter," or you got them- them to identify as, "I'm a voter."
13. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
14. JCJames Clear
  Rather than, "Are you voting today?" Um-
15. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
16. JCJames Clear
  And so same, same thing. There's an example in Atomic Habits I talk about. Imagine two people who are trying to quit smoking, you know? And so the first person gets offered a cigarette and they say, "Oh, no, thanks. I'm trying not to smoke." Um, and the second person gets offered and they say, "Oh, no, thanks. I'm not a smoker." And so the first person is trying to resist something that they still see themselves as, but the second person no longer sees themselves as the type of person who smokes. And, um, yeah, some of the evidence and research suggests that once you adopt those identities, it's- it's easier for you to stick
50:13 – 51:02
What Is Cognitive Dissonance?
1. JCJames Clear
  to the behavior.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Reminds me of the research from Leon Festinger, the guy that came up with the term cognitive dissonance.
3. JCJames Clear
  Mm.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  The way that I understand the concept of cognitive dissonance is that if I have a perceived identity of myself and something external threatens that or challenges it, we're not good at living in contradiction. I'm not good at- so for example, I'm a- an accountant right now and I hear that AI is doing accountancy work amazingly well. Now, I've invested 10 years in that accountancy degree. I see myself as a great accountant. My- my- my sort of initial reaction will probably be to either dismiss my current identity as a great accountant that- that's gonna have a great career in the future or to dismiss the AI. And he talks- well, people that have studied his work talk about how we're very poor at being able to hold two contradictory things to be true at the same time. So, um, we tend to protect our identity.
51:02 – 52:58
How Social Bonds Shape Our Self-Perception
1. SBSteven Bartlett
2. JCJames Clear
  Yes. Um, there's something incredibly powerful about this that also ties into habits, which is that a lot of our identity, not- not the whole thing, but large portions of our identity are tied to our relationships, you know?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
4. JCJames Clear
  I'm a father.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
6. JCJames Clear
  I'm a, you know, husband. I'm a- you know, and so, like, it's the connection that we have with others. Our social bonds influence the picture that we have of ourselves.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm.
8. JCJames Clear
  This is something that widely influences our habits, you know? So we are all part of multiple groups. Sometimes that group is large, like what it means to be American or what it means to be British. Sometimes that group is small, like what it means to be a neighbor on your street or a member of this family or a member at the local CrossFit gym. But all of the groups that you belong to, large and small, have a set of shared expectations for how you act, have a set of social norms for what you do in that group. And when your habits go with the grain of the expectations of the group, they're pretty attractive, you know? Like you wanna stick to 'em, you get praised and rewarded for it. You fit in. And when they go against the grain of the expectations of the group, they're kinda unattractive and you get criticized and it doesn't feel good. And so if people have to choose between, "I have habits that, um, I want, but I'm cast out, I'm ostracized, I'm criticized," or, "I have habits that I don't really love, but I fit in, I belong. I'm part of something," most of the time, the desire to belong overpowers the desire to improve.
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm.
10. JCJames Clear
  And so you wanna do something different, but you also know you're gonna be heavily criticized for it or you're gonna at least add friction to your relationships, and we don't wanna live with that dissonance. That dissonance of, "I could have this, but I also create friction here." One of the lessons, I think, one of the big takeaways if you want to build better habits and get habits to stick, particularly for the long run, is you want to join groups where your desired behavior is the normal behavior. Join groups where you can rise together, where the people that you're surrounded by have the type of habits that you want to have.
52:58 – 55:54
Why Your Environment Matters
1. JCJames Clear
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  It reminds me of this, um, this thing that appeared in Jeff Bezos's shareholder letter about resisting equilibrium.
3. JCJames Clear
  Hmm. I- I didn't know about this. Go ahead.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  So in Jeff Bezos's shareholder letter, he writes to shareholders that when referring to Amazon's ability and desire and need to innovate through the future, he says- he makes a comparison to Richard Dawkins' book called the... I think it's The Blind Clockmaker?
5. JCJames Clear
  Uh, yeah. The- yeah. Blind Watchman?
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Blind Watchman. Yeah, yeah.
7. JCJames Clear
  Yeah.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  And says that essentially all living organisms live in this constant battle to resist their equilibrium and actually death itself is when we become our environment. 'Cause right now me and you have a huge amount of energy expenditure to be different from our environment in terms of temperature, in terms of, uh, uh, acidity, et cetera. And he- he's making the comparison which sounded a lot what- like what you just said that if you wanna... That all living organisms are in this constant battle to be different from our environment. Um, and th- the more different our environment is, the harder the fight. So if I go to the desert, my body has to put- put out even more energy-
9. JCJames Clear
  Yeah.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... to be a different temperature, to be a different sort of, uh, acidity than the environment.
11. JCJames Clear
  Mm-hmm.
12. SBSteven Bartlett
  But if I want to make my life easier and make that fight easier, then go into an environment where my environment is the same as my internal st-
13. JCJames Clear
  Yeah.
14. SBSteven Bartlett
  ... my internal state.
15. JCJames Clear
  That's great. The- I think that punchline of the more different your environment is from the habits that you wanna build or from whatever equilibrium you're trying to achieve, the harder you will have to fight to maintain.
16. SBSteven Bartlett
  Yeah.
17. JCJames Clear
  And that is a fight that you can do for, I don't know, a day, a week, a month, but it's some limited amount of time. At some point, it just is draining to try to grind against the environment all the time. Sometimes I view environment, uh, both physical and social...... almost like a form of gravity. You know, like-
18. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
19. JCJames Clear
  ... the, the physical environment that we're in right now, okay, it's always nudging you in certain directions. Like I'm, I'm sitting in this chair right now talking to you. I could be sitting anywhere else, but I would have to sit on the floor, right? The, the environment of the chair is ushering me to this spot. It's almost like a form of gravity pulling me here rather than getting me to go somewhere else. When, uh, we leave this room, if I wanted, I could try to do something crazy and break through a wall or climb through the ceiling or whatever, but I'm gonna go through the door because that's where the environment is naturally nudging me toward. It's the- where that behavior happens easily.
20. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
21. JCJames Clear
  And all of our spaces are like that. You're always being kind of pulled toward what is natural and easy and consistent in that environment.
22. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
23. JCJames Clear
  So how can you prime your environment to make those the things you want to do? That's for physical environment. Social environment is the same. You know, it's all- you're always kind of being pulled toward what the behaviors are that are natural there. What are the social norms? What are the things that people get praised and rewarded for? What are- what is the culture typically calling you to do? And that's where I think the answer is you want to surround yourself with groups who have the behaviors you want to have. Join groups where your desired behavior is normal. If it's normal in that group, then you can rise together.
55:54 – 56:35
Cutting People Off from Your Life
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  So I mean, that, that must mean getting rid of certain people in one's life, and sometimes those people are hard to get rid of 'cause they're families, they're moms, they're dads.
2. JCJames Clear
  Sure. And I- you know, I'm a little, uh... Sometimes you hear people say things like, "Fire your friends," you know, or whatever. Like, and I- I- I'm not- I'm not all the way there. Uh, I, I think that yes, it is true, sometimes you have, um, an extreme circumstance, there's a particularly toxic person or something like that, and yeah, like, you know, you probably maybe should not be around them, and that- those can lead to very hard decisions. But I would say for the majority of life and the majority of your relationships, what we're really talking about here is not getting rid of relationships, we're talking about finding specific places where that habit can thrive. So here's some examples.
56:35 – 1:00:18
Creating a New Context for New Behaviors
1. JCJames Clear
  There's a number of studies that have shown that it tends to be easier to build a new habit in a new environment. So for example, if you... Well, first let me back up. There's an interesting way to define what a habit is, which is that it is a behavior that is tied to a particular context. So for example, your habit of watching Netflix might be tied to the context of your couch at 7:00 PM, and whenever you walk into your living room and you're by your couch and it's in the evening, you're kind of naturally being pulled toward picking up the remote and doing that, 'cause that's the context the habit happens in. So if you want to build a new habit, and again, these studies have found that it tends to be easier to build a new habit in a new environment, well, let's say you want to start a habit of journaling. Well, you walk into your living room in the evening and you sit down on the couch and you're like, "I'm gonna start journaling," but you're naturally, you know, your brain is kind of like, "Well, it's time to pick up the remote and turn on the TV." That doesn't always mean that you need a brand new space, like a new building or a new room to do every habit in, but you could do something like, you could get a chair and put it in the corner of the room, and that becomes the journaling chair, and the only thing that you do when you sit in that chair is you journal for five minutes. So now you have a new context that is tied to the behavior that you want to perform.
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
3. JCJames Clear
  And in the social sense, so this is what we were talking about previously, you want to be able to create a space that is a safe place for that envi- for that habit to live or for that habit to thrive, let's say. Um, sometimes there- those spaces are ready-made. Like, uh, let's say you want to do yoga four days a week, but you look around your family or your friends, in your apartment that you're living, nobody else is interested. They don't want to do it too. You do it in the living room, you kind of get made fun of or you're stepping on other people's space. They're like, "I'm trying to do stuff in here too." You know, it's just kind of inconvenient. Well, you can go to a yoga studio and that's a place where for that hour, you can be surrounded by a group where your desired behavior is normal, you don't have to fire any of your friends, um, and you can just go to the place where that habit can thrive. And I think each habit likes to have that. It likes to have somewhere where it can exist in a way that it's gonna be supported or in a way where the environment makes it easy. Sometimes the environment is ready-made like that. Other times, it's not. So for me, one of the most useful things that I did in my entrepreneurial career, I had, I had no entrepreneurs in my family, no authors. So I had this thing that I kind of wanted to do, but I- I didn't have anybody close to me that I could, like, look to. First six months that I was an entrepreneur, I sent like 300 cold emails just to other people that were like a year or two ahead of me, someone who seemed like you're actually doing this thing where, you know, you've got this online audience and you're- you're writing about stuff you like. Um, maybe 30 people got back to me. Uh, I did like a little, you know, Zoom call or whatever and we, you know, we chatted and connected, and then I met some of them at a conference like six months later. So I was six months in, I knew like maybe 10 people that I had met in person, and I had like 30 that I had reached out to.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
5. JCJames Clear
  So now it feels like, okay, at least I know a couple people who've done this thing, and I started hosting these retreats. Every- t- once or twice a year, I'd get six or eight authors together and I'd say, "Let's just rent an Airbnb. We'll split the cost, and we can talk about how to build an audience and how to grow your, you know, email list and how to write a book and launch it," and, you know, all the stuff that we were kind of focused on. It was almost always like the best six month, uh, best weekend of my year, um, because I would have six months worth of stuff that I need to execute on after-
6. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
7. JCJames Clear
  ... that was done. That's kind of like going to a yoga studio for yoga, but you had to create the space. I was always worried that I was gonna look like some dork, you know, and like invite everybody and they would all say no or whatever. But everybody wants the same thing, you know? They're all waiting for somebody to create the space for like-minded people to get together.
8. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
9. JCJames Clear
  So sometimes you need enough courage to create the space yourself. But the punchline is the same, which is you're trying to surround yourself with people where your desired behavior is the normal behavior.
10. SBSteven Bartlett
  I've
1:00:18 – 1:01:20
Ads
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  had so many founders speak to me and say, "Why didn't this particular ad that I ran on this platform work for me?" Maybe the copy wasn't good, the creative wasn't strong, but usually the problem is they're not having the right conversation, because that ad never reached the right person. And if you're in B2B marketing, that is much of the game, and this is where LinkedIn Ads solves that problem for you. Their targeting is ridiculously specific. You can target by job title, seniority, company size, industry, and even someone's skill set, and their network includes over a billion professionals. About 130 million of them are decision-makers. So when you use LinkedIn Ads, you're putting your brand in front of the right people. And LinkedIn Ads also drive the highest B2B return on ad spend across all ad networks, in my experience. If you want to give them a try, head over to linkedin.com/diary, and when you spend $250 on your first LinkedIn Ads campaign, you'll get an extra $250 credit from me for the next one. That's linkedin.com/diary. Terms and conditions apply.I'm
1:01:20 – 1:03:18
Advice for People Who Feel Stuck in Life
1. SBSteven Bartlett
  thinking about all the people that, um, are currently sat in a- in a job that they don't like. They're sat in a- a job in the middle of a big city, they're miserable, they wanna go do something else. They wanna go be an author. They wanna go follow in your footsteps. They wanna build a business, a media business, for example, but they're so far away from that. They're held in place by their parents' expectations. They're held in place by mortgage and all the things that, you know, life. When they get home every day, they're tired, really, really tired. So it's remained a dream. You must have so many of those people that write to you, that message you, um, because of what you've- you've produced and because of the- the content that you make. What do you say to those people? Wher- where does one- one such person start?
2. JCJames Clear
  One is, I don't think it serves you in any way to just, like, kind of wallow in how hard it is or to talk about how tough... Talking- complaining about how hard it is just makes it harder. You know?
3. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
4. JCJames Clear
  So the- the act of complaining makes a bad situation worse. The act of emphasizing the things that are going well or trying to take... It's kind of this endless game of trying to take your current advantages and gain new advantages.
5. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
6. JCJames Clear
  So, like, early on most people don't have many advantages. Like, I didn't know anybody in the industry, I didn't have any money, I didn't have any experience. But the one advantage that I did have was I had time, and so I could use that time to try to gain new advantages. So in my case, I used the time to write two articles a week, and I did that for two years. I did, like, kind of freelance gigs on the side to pl- pay the bills and stuff, and eventually that's how I built the audience. And then once I had the audience two years later, then I- I had a new advantage, right? I not only had time, I also had an email list.
7. SBSteven Bartlett
  Mm-hmm.
8. JCJames Clear
  Now I can go from there and I could get a book deal, and then I have a new advantage, I have a book deal, and then... You know, you can just kind of, like, continually use your current advantages to gain new advantages. And, um, I just talked about this for about 20 seconds. That was about seven years of my life is (laughs) the-
9. SBSteven Bartlett
  (laughs)
10. JCJames Clear
  ... thing that... the span of all that, right? It goes- it goes slower than what you want. But, um, it's kind of just that- that endless game.
1:03:18 – 1:08:40
Why Getting 1% Better Every Day Works
1. JCJames Clear
2. SBSteven Bartlett
  It goes slower than you would want. Makes me think about this whole, uh, idea of being one percent better every day.
3. JCJames Clear
  Yeah. Yeah.
4. SBSteven Bartlett
  What are the most sort of pertinent parts of- of understanding that graph?
5. JCJames Clear
  Two things stand out, right? So first is, this is- this chart's just showing... What this is showing is if you get one percent better each day for a year, okay, so 1.01 to the 365th power, you get 37 times better by the end of the year, right? So that's this curve. If you get one percent worse, .99 to the 365th power, you drive yourself almost all the way down to zero. Now a chart like this is just compound interest, right? This is just a compounding curve. And real life is not exactly like compound interest. You know, your habits are not exactly like this mathematical formula, but I think this chart does a good job of encapsulating what the process of behavior change feels like, you know, what it's like to try to get a little bit better each day, because two things are true. These are the two things that stand out. First, any compounding curve, the hallmark of any compounding process is all the greatest returns are delayed, right? You are 80% of the way through this curve before it really starts to take off. So all the greatest returns are delayed. The early stuff doesn't feel that impressive. The second is the... on day one, the separation between .99 and 1.01 is very small, right? One percent better or one percent worse is very minor.

Episode duration: 2:11:18

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Intro

What Atomic Habits Taught Us About Human Behavior

A Great Way to Stick to Your Habits

Create the Conditions to Succeed

The 2-Minute Rule: The Most Important Habit-Building Tip

Small Steps That Lead to Big Progress

Don't Waste Time: Hats, Haircuts, and Tattoos Framework

The Most Impactful Story from the Atomic Habits Community

The Difference Between a System and a Goal

How to Create Systems to Achieve What You Want

Winners and Losers Have the Same Goals

Can Goals Make You Unhappy?

Do You Need Dissatisfaction to Stay Driven?

How Detrimental Is Comparison to Others?

Which Habit Should You Start With?

The Most Overlooked Things About Habits

Big Life Changes

The 4 Burners Theory: You Can't Do Everything

Sequencing Your Life: When to Do What

Does It Really Take 66 Days to Form a Habit?

Why Habits Get Easier Over Time

How Habits Reinforce Your Desired Identity

The Importance of Identity in Habit Formation

What Is Cognitive Dissonance?

How Social Bonds Shape Our Self-Perception

Why Your Environment Matters

Cutting People Off from Your Life

Creating a New Context for New Behaviors

Ads

Advice for People Who Feel Stuck in Life

Why Getting 1% Better Every Day Works

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