The Diary of a CEODr K: "There Is A Crisis Going On With Men!", “We’ve Produced Millions Of Lonely, Addicted Males!”
EVERY SPOKEN WORD
150 min read · 30,269 words- 0:00 – 2:43
Intro
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
This is super scary. 50% of men who kill themselves have no history or evidence of mental illness. What causes people to kill themselves is they try to connect with others, and they get rejected. You know, it's, it's... I can feel the hurt. I can feel the loss. (instrumental music plays) Dr. Alok Panojia...
- SBSteven Bartlett
He's a psychiatrist, Harvard Medical School instructor...
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Real-life monk... Who uses his own addictive past...
- SBSteven Bartlett
To help millions of people improve their own mental health.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Everyone is getting screwed, but there's a crisis with men. People telling us that being a man means that you're a ... That you're toxic, that there's a patriarchy, that your testosterone level makes you violent. So, men are struggling right now and the rest of the world says, "No, you're not. You're privileged." And these people have been literally killing themselves because no one has been listening to them. Except there is one group of people who says, "Your life sucks," and that's these toxic masculine people. And these guys say, "I will show you a way to make it better," and that's when things go bad. And this, by the way, is how people wind up with addiction. Because when you look at addiction, what happens is we use a substance or a technology as an antidote to pain. So, I've worked with people who have pornography addiction, for example, that will have work on one screen, and they will literally have pornography on the second screen.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're joking.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
No, very common. And this is where there's a big problem in the world today.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Now you've got this young generation of women as well that are exploding in their suicidality. Loneliness seems to be getting worse and worse. What is the remedy to this?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So, this is something that's very important to understand. Everyone who is listening to this podcast needs to s- (music stops)
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's absolutely crazy to me that so many of you have decided to watch our show, um, and so many of you have decided to subscribe to our show. We now have five million subscribers on YouTube, which is a number that I just can't comprehend, and it's a dream that I absolutely never could have had. We started the Diary of a CEO just over three years ago now, and in my wildest expectations, we might have had 100,000 subscribers by now. So, you can imagine how shocked I am that so many of you have chosen to tune into these conversations every week, um, and spend some time with us. So, thank you. And I made a deal with you. I made a deal that if you subscribe to this show, that we would continue to raise the bar. And in 2024, we're gonna raise the bar like never before. I've been working for the last nine months on a surprise for all of you that have subscribed to this show, and I'm very excited to deliver that for you. The production's gonna change. We're gonna go even further with our guests, and we're gonna tell even more global stories. So, as always, if you appreciate what we're doing here, the simple free favor I'll ask from you is to hit the subscribe button. Let's get on with the episode. (instrumental music plays)
- 2:43 – 3:16
Achieve Whatever You Want
- SBSteven Bartlett
Dr. K?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Steven.
- SBSteven Bartlett
With all of your work and all of the content you've produced, if someone's just clicked on this podcast now, what do you think they're gonna get out of this conversation? What do you think they're going to walk away with?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Uh, I hope what they'll walk away with is the realization that you are the instrument of your life. And understanding that fundamental instrument that you use to live your life, your body, your mind, will ultimately help you accomplish whatever you want.
- 3:16 – 4:49
External Success Won't Fix You Inside
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what is the opposite mindset to that? To understanding that you're the instrument of your life? What is the typical mindset that people have that go through their lives think- without the realization that they are the instrument of their life?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
I think it's assuming that something outside of them will fix things inside of them. Right? So, people will think like, "Okay, if I get a promotion then I'll be happy. If I date this person then I will be happy. If I have this amount of money, I will be happy." Everyone assumes that extern- things outside of you will fix things inside of you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why is this subject close to home for you?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
(laughs) Because I used to believe that. So, I- I struggled a lot. I mean, I'm- I'm, by all definitions of the word, an absolute failure. Um, I failed out of college. Uh, was finished school at the age of 35 or 36. You know, it took me a long time to kind of get on my feet and figure out what I was doing in my life. And I realized that, like, the reason that I was screwing up so much is because I- I always thought that accomplishing something outside of me or achieving some kind of goal would make me happy. And I didn't understand that all of my problems came from me. I also blamed all kinds of things outside of me. So, I would blame circumstances, I would blame... My professor is biased. This girl is... Y- you know, she- she doesn't see the- the goodness that I have in me. She can't recognize how awesome I am. So, I kept on blaming things outside of me instead of accepting responsibility.
- 4:49 – 7:25
This Won't Lead To Happiness
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
Take me from that point onward. So, what happened, uh, uh, that- that brings you to sit here today as an accomplished individual, as a doctor, and so on?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So, I th- I think my journey starts with failure. So, I- I think we think about failure as a negative thing, but I think that that's what actually got me started on my journey. After failing out of college, I went to India and I stayed in a monastery or ashram for about three months, and it completely changed the way that I looked at the world. So, what I sort of realized is that, kind of like what I was saying, is that... See, I had assumed that things outside of me were responsible for things inside of me. So, as a simple example, I attached my net- my sense of self-worth to getting an A. So I- when I went to- when- when I went to college, I was planning on becoming a doctor. And as any Indian kid wants to do, I wanted to go to Harvard. And so I had sort of all these grand dreams of what I wanted to accomplish in life and how I wanted to be a good force in the world and all this kind of stuff. It's all ego. And- and so what sort of happened is, even though I wanted all of these things, I assumed that all of that accomplishment would bring me happiness. It's when I went to India that I sort of discovered that, like, no amount of external accomplishment will bring you lasting happiness.And this is what we sort of see, these are the- the people that I work with now. You know, I'll work with someone like a banker or a doctor or a content creator. And for all of these people, it's like once you accomplish your goal, your mind moves the goal posts. So you got promoted to vice president, now you need to be director, then you need to be managing director, then you need to be... You know, there's always more. The mind always wants more. So chasing after all of that will never lead to lasting happiness. So once I sort of started to realize that, I kinda gave up all of my desires for accomplishment. Um, and the real paradox there is that as I let go of all of my goals, I started to become more successful. And so instead of trying to be something great, I just focused on, you know, small targets. I sort of focused on my spiritual practice. I tried to become, uh, a monk and take vows at the age of, like, 22 and my teachers rejected me. So they said, I said, "I'm ready to forsake my life." And they said, (laughs) "You have nothing worth giving up. You have, uh, your life is meaningless. Like, you have nothing worth giving up. So go back to the United States, rise as high as you can, finish your doctoral degree, actually get something worth giving up, and then at the age of 30, if you still want to take vows, we'll take you."
- 7:25 – 9:20
I Had A Gaming Addiction
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
What situation must you have been in at that point, though, before you went off at sort of 21 years old to that ashram to be so prepared to give everything up? 'Cause, 'cause I heard that, reading through your story, that you, uh, you had addictive behaviors at that point already.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah. So I, I struggled a lot with video game addiction. Um, so I, I started playing video games when I was very young. And then in high school, it really started to impact my grades. In college, I was basically playing video games all day long instead of, like, going to class and stuff like that. Like, I remember waking up the morning of my Spanish final, this was my final exam, and then realizing that I, like, wasn't very prepared for it, so I just turned off my alarm clock and went back to sleep, and therefore guaranteed failure. And so where I was mentally was just in a really bad place. So I, I had all of these goals and aspirations and I was so frustrated with myself that I couldn't bring myself to do what I wanted, right? So I, I, I knew that I had to study more. Every single day I would wake up and be like, "I have to study more. I have to catch up. I've fallen behind." And so I'd have all of these thoughts and no matter how much I wanted something, it seemed like my body or my brain would just not listen to me. It wanted the video game more, it wanted something else more. And so what I really was, was in, I had no control over my life. I was probably depressed. If I had seen a psychiatrist, I'm sure I would have gotten diagnosed with something. Um, brief periods of suicidality, basically waking up at noon every day, playing video games all day long. And I also remember, like before, I, I had to play to the point of absolute exhaustion. Because if I put my head on the pillow and I did not pass out, all of the thoughts that I was keeping at bay with the video games would come rushing back about how I'm ruining my life, day after day after day after day, and I was just sort of sinking deeper and deeper and, like, falling into a pit that I could not climb out of.
- 9:20 – 12:45
How To Identify Real Needs From Desires?
- SBSteven Bartlett
So the ashram in India tells you that you can't give up your life. What happened then? And why did you specialize in psychiatry?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
(laughs) So when I went to med school, I mean, when I, when I was in med school, I was, I still had ego. So I mean, I still have ego now, but... So I, I was gonna, like, like, combine Eastern medicine and sort of focus on evidence-based complementary and alternative medicine and I was going to be an oncologist and be a real doctor and save lives. But what I really found is that in med school, um, a couple of things. One is my, my favorite organ was the mind. So what I fell in love with in India was the mind and sort of the internal sense of self and all this kind of stuff. So I, I really liked that. And then I think that my people were in psychiatry, so the other thing that happened is I was trying to decide between internal medicine and oncology and psychiatry, and so one of my mentors in med school told me, like, "Do this. So do one month of each and then just ask yourself which one do you enjoy more." So on the one hand, when I was thinking about oncology, this was also chasing a desire, right? I had this idea that I wanted to be a real doctor, right? 'Cause those are like, "Oh, I want to cure cancer," like, that's like, "Let's, let's be like a real solid doctor and do that." And then what I noticed was that now what internal medicine has become is very, like, sitting in front of a computer. So when you work in a hospital, like eight hours of the day I'm sitting in front of a computer and you spend very little time with your patients. And then over time, I started to, to realize that, like, psychiatry is the only field of medicine that we're losing the war in. So if you look at medical outcomes for things like bypass surgery and stuff like that, those are really good. And this is really insane to really think about. So we can take your body, Steven, and we can give you a heart from a different human being. We can give you a kidney from a different human being. We can give you a liver from a different human being. If you have a part of your body that doesn't work, we can literally rip it out of you, stick in a new one, and you will survive. So outcomes in every field of medicine are improving except for mental health. So mental health is the one area where addictions are getting worse, depression is getting worse, suicidality is getting worse, and this is in spite of advances in neuroscience. So something has happened where we've missed something about the mind and everyone is getting sicker. So, like, this was the problem that really attracted me. And this isn't about my desire, this is sort of where we introduce the concept of dharma or duty. So I recognize that I'm lucky. I, I, I'm this kid who got to spend seven years studying to become a monk in India, so I'd travel back and forth, but I spent my summers there. So I had this really unique perspective. And then I got to train at Harvard Medical School, and what am I supposed to do with this knowledge, right? Like, this is 15 years that I've devoted to understanding how human beings work. And like, I had this very kind of, you know, chic private practice in Boston where I worked with very, very successful people and helped them achieve...And then, I sort of realized, like, that's not what I'm here for, right? So I've gotten 15 years to learn all of this stuff, and, like, there's no shortage of people lining up to help CEOs with their mental health. There's absolutely a shortage of people helping twen- twenty-five-year-old incels who are, like, on the internet, who everyone wants to throw in jail because they're very hateful and misogynistic and things like that. So I sort of realized that, like, okay, like, this is what I'm supposed to do, so I'm gonna do it.
- 12:45 – 13:25
What Sort Of People Have You Worked With?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay. So I've got a big question. But before I- just, just to tee up that big question, you said you had this practice in Boston where you were working with sort of high profile individuals, et cetera. What is the full spectrum of individuals that you've spent time working with on a one-on-one basis or through your practice?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
I worked with people out of MIT, incubators, CEOs, entrepreneurs, things like that. So a lot of high performance people. But then I've also worked with, like, losers, let's say. So this is also more intensely. This is everything from 25-year-old kid who's living in his mom's basement playing video games all day to people who are even homeless. Um, so I- I've worked with, like, basically, like, the whole spectrum and... yeah.
- 13:25 – 21:04
What Does It Mean To Be A Man?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
You used the word "losers" there, and you did the little air quotes for anyone that can't see you, um, right now. I'm really interested, when you talked about incels as well, whether the way society is and the way that we're heading in terms of clarity over what it is to be a man has had any impact on those people that you refer to as incels. Like, I'm- I'm, you know, like... because we now have this digital world that we can live our lives in as a distraction from the real world, and there's now more confusion than ever over what it is to be a man and the role of a man in a... you know. And then we look at the stats around suicidality, and I think in Europe the biggest killer of men under the age of 45 is themselves currently.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is the shifting idea of what it is to be a man having an impact on people's sense of self and their purpose?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
100%. So th- there's a, there's a crisis that's going on in men. And people think that this is new, but I don't think it's new. It's always been there. So if you look at, like, you know, even 50, 60 years ago, 80% of suicides are still gonna be men. So historically, men have been killing themselves for, like, 100 years and no one's been paying attention. We're just noticing now because the problem seems to be getting worse. So there's a couple of things that are really interesting to understand. So one is that if we look at what technology is doing to our brains, the first thing that it's doing is it is externalizing our attention. So if you look back, like, let's say, 1,000 years ago, as human beings, we spent a lot more time with ourselves. So let's say that you and I go out hunting. And then let's say you shoot an arrow at a deer and you miss, and then I shoot an arrow at a deer and I hit. So in this moment, I'm superior to you. And then we pick up the deer and we're carrying it back, and then we have about two or three hours to take that emotional insult and we kind of process it. We just give our mind space to process it, which it does automatically. Now if you look at what happens in people's days, they don't actually have any time to process what happens to them because we are so constantly distracted by external things. So I- I don't know if- if you're like this, but I was in this point where I was idiotically efficient. So I would wake up in the morning and I would listen to a podcast while I'm, like, doing my exercise or whatever, and then even when I'm cooking, I'm listening to a lecture, and then, like, when I'm walking to the train I have earbud- uh, you know, uh, earbuds in and I'm listening to a lecture there, on the train I'm reading. I wanted my life to be completely efficient. I didn't want to waste a single moment.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I literally listen to the news in the shower. It's-
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Right? So we don't want to waste time. And so if you really think about it, where's the attention of your mind? Your mind is pointed outside of you. And so then what happens is once we do not pay attention to ourselves, we lose sight of our internal signals. Literally in the same way that if you raise a child in a dark cave, the- the photoreceptors in their eyes won't develop. They will atrophy. So anyt- anything that the mind does not get access to will start to atrophy. If I don't practice Spanish, I'm gonna forget Spanish. The mind is very... brain is a very efficient organ. So as we externalize our attention, we lose sight of our internal signals. We don't know who we are anymore. And now if I don't know who I am, how do I figure out who I'm supposed to be? I pay attention to the outside. Where are the answers? They're on the outside. So this person is talking about masculinity. This person is talking about what it means to be a man. This person is talking about what it means to be a man. And now since I don't have any internal source of information, I'm trying to figure out what it means to be a man from the outside world. And this is when men get truly fucked, because what it means to be a man, we are getting all kinds of mixed signals. So on the one hand, it means being physically fit. On the other hand, it means being a provider. On one hand, it means having sex with as many women as you can find. On the other hand, it means having sex with, um, just one woman and being a really solid man and being a good father. And then there's also people telling us that being a man means that you're shit, right, that you're toxic, that your testosterone level makes you violent, that you're evil, that you're privileged, that there's a patriarchy, all this kind of stuff. So we're- we're getting all this information from the outside about what it means to be a man. And so the other, like... there are all kinds of interesting ramifications of this. So men in today's society are not allowed to complain. So if you complain and you're a successful person or a privileged person, everyone is gonna think you're arrogant. Everyone is gonna think, "Oh my God, who's this fucking guy? This guy doesn't know what my life is like. How does he have any right to complain?" And even your mind will tell you this. You'll look at these people and you'll be like, "Yeah, I don't have a right to complain." But now we need to stop for a second and think about what it does to your psychology when you as a human being are not allowed to articulate your suffering. I've worked with people who've grown up in abusive h- households where children will say to their parents, "Mommy, Daddy, I'm hurting," and the- the parent smacks them across the face. "How dare you? You're so lucky. You don't realize the sacrifices I make for you." It's traumatizing.... to the child when they say, "I am suffering and no one listens." This is what we're doing to the generation of men. People are saying, "I am suffering." For 100 years, men have been killing themselves. 80% of suicides are men. The most dangerous thing for a man under 45 is themselves. And these people have been literally killing themselves because no one has been listening to them. So in the same way that you grow up with a- a- a- as a child in a household that's abusive where no one takes you seriously, no one listens to your suffering, and now we even have successful men who are not allowed to complain. So the psychological impact is the same. Anytime you have a human being who is suffering in some way and they cannot find connection with another human being, they cannot find compassion with another human being, that person is going to feel isolated. And if you look at the statistics on suicide, it's very interesting. So the number one thing that correlates with male suicide is not depression. And this is super scary. There's one study I saw recently that suggests that 50% of men who kill themselves have no history or evidence of mental illness. And this, I- I believe this statistic in my clinical practice because I know what depression looks like, I know what bipolar disorder looks like. And half the men that I've worked with, at least, are not actually mentally ill. See, mental illness means a pathology of the mind, which means that the mind is malfunctioning. Most of the suicidal men that I work with, they're not mal- their mind isn't malfunctioning. They genuinely have a life that is no longer worth living. They're looking at things and objectively realizing that there's no way out of the situation, so they turn to suicide. So I know it's kind of like a very controversial statement, but I think that's what my clinical practice has shown, and there's some research to even back that up. So if we sort of look at what's going on with men, we're sort of... Th- they- they have nowhere to turn to. And the number one thing that correlates with it is not mental illness, but it's a sense of thwarted belongingness. So this is kinda like fac- uh, multivariate regression analysis. But basically what happens is what causes people to kill themselves is they try to connect with others and they get rejected. So it's specifically a- a very specific research term called thwarted belongingness. So I try to belong to a group, and that group, or multiple groups usually, will- will thwart my attempts to join the tribe, to join the community. And this is what actually correlates a lot with suicidality. So what's going on with men right now is that we really don't allow them to suffer, you know, because then you're not manly. And we're so externalized with our attention that we're not connecting with ourselves. And so we're looking to other people to tell us what it means to be a man. But that may or may not work for you, right? That may have been what worked for them. So then we kinda get into this problem where we're disconnected from ourselves and then, like, the world doesn't accept us, we're not allowed to suffer, and that's what creates the problem.
- 21:04 – 24:57
What Is The Remedy For Men’s Mental Health & Suicide Issues?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is the remedy to this?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So I think the first thing is we must reconnect with ourselves, right? So when you're kinda saying like, "Why do- does everyone think, oh, I- I need to, like, achieve this, I need to make this money," and things like that, where did you learn that you should do all that? You learned all that from the outside.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Instagram.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Instagram, right? So we get- we get fed all of these ideas, because if you look at all these influencers, what are they doing? They're never crying. They're smiling. Some of them will even pay very attractive women to take pictures with them, right?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Well, some of them are crying, but they're crying and uploading it for ulterior motives, right?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
A- absolutely. And I think a lot of them are genuinely suffering too. But then it's- it's also like... I mean, there's all kinds of weird stuff going on. So one thing is, like, people say that men is- me- we don't allow men to be emotional nowadays, but people say- people say, "Oh, men are allowed to cry." So this is something that I experience even in my marriage, where we allow men to cry, but we don't allow men to be angry. But why is it our men are no longer allowed to be angry? Just think about it for a second. So anger is just a completely normal emotion, right? But if I'm in a situation where I'm in an argument with my wife and I feel emotion A and I express emotion A, and she feels emotion B and she expresses emotion B, these two things should be equal, right? We, as both human beings, get to express what we feel. Now, in the case of me expressing anger and her expressing sadness, she's crying and I'm yelling. Suddenly, I become a villain.
- SBSteven Bartlett
It's so interesting. I saw a viral tweet yesterday. It was someone googling, "My wife is yelling at me. What should I do?" And then, "My husband is yelling at me. What should I do?" When they Googled, "My husband is yelling at me. What should I do?" Domestic violence helpline comes up as like a Google, um, uh, pop-up. When you Google, "My wife is yelling at me. What should I do?" nothing comes up.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Because obviously, as you said, in the case of villainization, I know that most domestic violence comes from men, but it's- it's interesting that we see the emot- we interpret the emotions entirely differently because of that.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely, right? So we, as a society, will say like, "Oh, men- men need to be in touch with their emotions, but not anger." And then this is what really screws men. Because as men, we are socialized and conditioned to only feel anger. This is the only emotion you're allowed to feel as a man growing up, and this is the one emotion that gets demonized when you're older. So I'll give you a simple example. So, like, I used to get bullied a lot, right? So when I get bullied in school, like, what am I supposed to do, Stephen?
- SBSteven Bartlett
In school, it depends if you can fight back.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely, right? It's fighting back. Like, you didn't say, "Talk to the teacher." You didn't say, "Ask for help." You didn't say, "Cry about it." Because if I cry about it, what's gonna happen, Stephen?
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're gonna get bullied more.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely. So we turn every emotion... So men experience anger as something called an umbrella emotion. We literally suppress and are conditioned to suppress all other emotions except for anger. And then if you talk to men about their experience of life, anger is always the first thing that comes out of their mouth. Someone breaks up with you, "How do you feel about it? Do you feel ashamed?" No, that's not what we say. "I feel pissed off. How could she do this to me?" And then we vent that anger on the internet, and then this turns into misogyny, right? And then we get demonized for it. And it's not that there isn't... Uh, we should be harshly judged if we act on those kinds of emotions. I'm not saying that that's the case.But what we also need to consider is that the men who are saying these kinds of toxic things are saying that for a reason. This is because of their upbringing. This is because of the world that they lived in, right? So we're conditioned to only experience anger. Even sadness gets turned into anger, shame gets turned into anger, fear gets turned into anger, right? So if I'm afraid of something happening, what do I need to... I need to man up, get angry, right? Like, "Let's go son, let's go." This is the emotion that we tap into to overcome fear. So we don't feel any of those other emotions and we're left only feeling anger.
- 24:57 – 27:22
Men Get Upset Based On Their Insecurities
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
At the very heart of aggression, um, I heard someone say to me once that at the very heart of aggression is some kind of insecurity. But for men, when they encounter that insecurity, they only know how to sort of manifest it as aggression.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So I wouldn't agree with the first thing that at the heart of all anger is insecurity. But I would absolutely agree with the second thing that the way that we... the only way (laughs) we know how to respond is with anger because-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Here's the exact quote, just found it. "The source of aggression is insecurity. As we are unconsciously aware that our position in life is never secure, people feel ins- increasingly insecure and helpless, so they will be increasingly aggressive and confrontational at a personal and a social level."
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So let's tunnel down into that for a second, okay? So I think that that is true on some level, but also I would disagree. So the first thing is that we have parts of our brain, even animals feel anger, but I think that, like, when two dogs are fighting over territory, I don't think that that's borne of some kind of identity of insecurity, right? So if we really look at, like, the evolutionary purpose of anger, this is my opinion, is that anger is the e- emotion that we feel to protect our territory. It's a protective emotion. So if I slap you across the face, what's the first thing that you're gonna feel? It's gonna be anger. So if I insult you, you're gonna feel angry. It, it's fascinating the way that it works. So anger causes our thoughts to be faster. Anger causes our peripheral vision to collapse to 30 degrees, so I only see what's in front of me. And it also makes me less, uh, sensitive to pain. So, like, my nociceptors will actually, like, start to be suppressed when I feel angry, right? So if I get into a fight, I'm gonna feel it tomorrow, but, like, while I'm getting hit, I'm not gonna feel it. So I don't think it's borne of all insecurity. I think anger is simply an evolutionary response. It, it's, it's something that we experience to protect ourselves. That's why we feel angry, right? So if I attack baby bear, mama bear is gonna come out angry. So it's, it's really a protective emotion. Now I agree with the second part of the statement 100% that when we feel insecure, especially as men, the only way we are taught to deal with our problems is through anger, right? So if I'm feeling insecure, if I'm feeling ashamed of myself, if someone's bullying me, what do I do? I put them in their place, right? I don't try to make peace, I don't complain to someone because no one's gonna take me seriously, right? I have to stand up for myself.
- 27:22 – 28:20
Men Need Self-Expression
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
So we've got the first point now about how we remedy this challenge, which is about self-expression, more self-expression. That's what I heard.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Not self-expression, introspection.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Introspection, getting to know ourselves.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Right. Right? So, so it's very simple. So if you look at your idea of what it means to be a man, what percentage of that idea comes outside of you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs)
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
And what percentage of that idea comes from within you?
- SBSteven Bartlett
About 90% comes from outside of me.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
And that's why 90% of people... we're 90% fucked, right? So, and if you look, and I'm sure you know this, and you've probably done this too, if you look at where is the goodness in your life, where does it come from, Steven? It doesn't come from what other people have told you. They may have told you something, but then you looked within yourself and then you found that to be true.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
The goodness in you, the motivation, the really good motivation in you, not chasing things, but the, the duty that you have, you know, everything that you really strive for, all that good stuff comes from inside you. And the problem is that we live in a world that pulls our attention away from ourselves.
- 28:20 – 32:08
What Are Your Thoughts On Andrew Tate?
- SBSteven Bartlett
What do you think of Andrew Tateism then?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So as a general rule, I don't comment on people that I don't speak to.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So what, what... tell me the features of what you're talking about.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay. So the recent wave of internet masculine influencers who have, like, Bugattis and lots of women and sports cars, and there's, there's many of them, there's many of them, and they seem to be resonant for some kind of reason-
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... um, that are kind of saying that the way to become... uh, be a man is to have loads of money, lots of women, these kind of cars, physical strength. And there's just this huge sort of generation of young, typically men, that are now disciples of that religion.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah. So I think if you dislike that toxic masculinity, what we need to understand is it's the people who hate that toxic masculinity that are driving these people to- towards it. So I know this is kind of crazy. So what's happened is this has grown, right? And as it's grown, what have we done? We've demonized these people. We've said, "These people are bad." And as we demonize them, what's happened? They've grown stronger. So this is something that's very important to understand. If you are a man and you say, "I am suffering today," what is the response that you're gonna get?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Shut up.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not in those exact words, but that's... whatever the words are, that's what they mean.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Now, I want us to be very, very careful, right? So if you are listening to Steven say people tell you to shut up and your first thought as a listener is, "No, that's not true," that's the problem. So e- if people agree with you, they understand what you're saying, but if they disagree with you, that's the problem. You... we literally have a man who is telling, telling us right now that your experiences, "When I say I'm suffering, people tell you to shut up," and then people are gonna be judging you for saying that, and they're gonna be saying, "No, that's not true."
- SBSteven Bartlett
They're gonna be saying, "Shut up." (laughs)
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely. Right? So this is exactly the problem. So men are struggling right now and the, the rest of the world says, "No, you're not. You're privileged. You're a man. There's a patriarchy." And I'm not commenting on the sociology of it. There is a patriarchy, whatever, there's... men have many advantages in life, I've experienced many advantages of being a man. It's absolutely true. I'm not... let's not go there. I'm talking about the individual experience of men.So there is one group of people on the planet who says, "Yes, your life does suck," and that's these toxic masculine people. They're the only people that truly validate men's experiences, 'cause everyone else says, "Why are you complaining?" And these guys say, "Yeah, you're a fucking loser. What are you gonna do about it?" They at least meet you where you're at, and they say, "Yes, your life is hard, and I will show you a way to make it better," whereas the rest of the world says, "No, your life isn't hard. What are you complaining about?" And I've seen this as a doctor. I've seen patients who are complaining about pain, women who are complaining about pain because they have an internal bleed within the wall of their uterus that cannot get detected. And they're saying, "I'm hurting, I'm hurting, I'm hurting," and we ignore this person's pain, and that's when things go bad. So for years and years and years, we have ignored the struggles of men, and there's one group on the planet who accepts them with open arms. And the more that we demonize them... So when someone starts believing this toxic masculinity, what is the response? Do people ever ask, like, "Help me understand what your life is like"? Like, "What do you like about this person?" Because everyone's going to them for a reason, but we never, we never bother to ask, "Why are you listening to this person? What does this mean to you?" I see these, we see these posts all the time in our community, "My boyfriend is getting into this stuff. My son is getting into this stuff. How do I stop it?" Hold on a second, don't try to stop it. Understand it first, because everyone's trying to stop it and no one is bothering to listen to what the experience of these men, men are. And that's why it's getting worse and worse and worse as we try to stop
- 32:08 – 36:01
How To Stop People From Following Toxic Masculinity?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
it.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So if I'm the mother of a son who is watching a lot of th- these sort of toxic male influencers online, what would be a better approach versus just banning the computer and telling them that that's toxic and not to look at it?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Help me understand what you like about this.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um...
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
What is it like to be a man in today's day, uh, day and age? How do you feel about yourself? How does it feel knowing that 70 to 80% of women want you to make more money than them and yet 60% of people who graduate from college are women? So men are faced... are living in a world today where there are impossible expectations to meet. And so, like, what is it like to be someone who fundamentally has no chance at success, right? These are the kinds of things that you need to say to these people. You need to give them an alternate place to go where they can be heard and helped, supported and understood. See, anytime we make a judgment, our mind already has a conclusion. There's nothing left to learn anytime we're judgmental. So what do we, what do we do to all these people who are toxic men? We even create the word toxic. We literally label them as bad in some way. And I'm not saying that the behavior isn't toxic, but what I'm pointing, or what I'm trying to point out is that even in our language, there is so much harsh judgment. So I once had a patient-
- SBSteven Bartlett
We both just did it, didn't we?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So I once had a patient who was smearing feces over the, all over the school. So adolescent kid, right? And when you have a kid who's literally taking a shit and wiping it on the walls and stuff, what happens? The kid gets punished. Kid gets punished again and again and again. The one really sad thing is no one ever asks, "Why are you doing this? What's going on inside you?" Because healthy kids don't do this. It's only kids who've been traumatized in some way. And as I've worked with incels, as I've worked with people who are toxically masculine, it always starts with trauma. And when I say always, this is a clinical experience, but I'm talking about 100%. So 100% of people start on this path by getting hurt in some way, by getting taken advantage of in some way, by sacrificing something and not getting something in return. And they have their share of responsibility too. I'm not saying that they're hapless victims, but I-I think that people who are raised with love and compassion and do have connections don't go down this road.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're so passionate about this, aren't you? Because I feel like your eyes have seen, in your practice, some pretty heartbreaking things.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah. I mean, I think it's like... S- see, unless we are willing to be what these people need, they're gonna continue going down the toxic masculinity route. Someone needs to start offering these people safe haven no matter what they say or, or not- not no matter, I think there should be consequences for actions. But, so this is as someone who's worked in a jail, right? So, and this is what's kind of interesting if you really think about it. Uh, uh, people will judge me for talking to or even trying to support people who are toxically masculine. And they're like, "Oh my God, you're such an asshole. You're giving these people a platform. How could you make the world a worse place?" And then I tell them I worked for, uh, in a jail for three months and they're like, "Oh, look at you, you're so compassionate. You're working with these people who are, like, criminals," and like, oh my God. We... I don't think they realize that anyone you see on social media is ten times better than the people that I worked with in jail. These are people who are actual pedophiles, actual rapists, right? Not just talking about it. And maybe the people on social media are too, I don't know. And so it's really interesting the way that our mind automatically judges things. And so if we really want to fix this problem, and I think we need to fix this problem, uh, it's just my take, I mean, I'm, I'm not a, uh, you know what, I'm a big fan of, like, compassion and trying to support other human beings. I'm not saying that that's always the right answer. I think sometimes you may need things like war or violence or whatever. I mean, there may be causes for it. But generally speaking, I think that, like, demonizing these people isn't working.
- 36:01 – 38:59
Do Men Need More Positive Role Models?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there anything else that we haven't covered in the remedies to this sort of male crisis? We've talked about getting in, more in touch with yourselves. Is there anything else? Do we need more positive role models or is it really not about the external at all?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Uh, no, I mean, so I think all that stuff is true. So we know that, for example, like, there's, like, a loneliness crisis and things like that. Uh, I think that we all... it's not just role models, like, we need individual responsibility. So, like, for example, everyone will say, "Yeah, like, I, I know it's a real tragedy that men don't have friends, but it's not my job to fix." I will hear this from both men and women that, like, "It's a real tragedy but it's not my responsibility. It's sad that this thing happened, but it's not..."... my, my... and which makes sense, right? No, no human being is responsible for another human being. But then the question kind of becomes, like, okay, let's play that tape through to the end. What happens to that person? Whose responsibility is it? So if you look at a lot of what's going on with men right now, it's loneliness, it's isolation, it's touch starvation, it's suicidality.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Sexlessness as well.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Sexlessness. And it's, it's no individual person's responsibility, but the real problem with this is that these are not problems that men can solve on their own. This is exactly why this is the problem that men are experiencing. Because as men, we are taught to be independent. We are taught to be, "You should fix everything on your own." And so men have fixed all of the things that we can fix on our own. The only thing that's left is the things that we must rely on other people for, right? So no one's complaining about... You know, I mean, a lot of men are obese, but there's not, like, an obesity... There is a crisis, but that's not what's bothering people. That's not where we're losing the war. We're not losing the war on baldness, right? So there are lots of things as a man that you can fix in your own life. It's just the real challenge is that no one is willing to take responsibility for any level of connection with men. And so that's not something that is gonna get fixed, 'cause you need another human being to hug you. Like, you can't hug yourself. It just doesn't work. So I, I... And my area of focus tends to be on introspection because I think that's, like, really, really powerful, but there's all kinds of other stuff that's important, mentorship, role models, all that kind of stuff. But I think ultimately, through introspection, you can a- attain complete peace, no matter who you are, what your, what your path is, cir- circumstances. I think it's kind of like the silver bullet, which is what the Buddha discovered.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So are you saying now that as a society we should take on more of the responsibility for some of these big fundamental issues that, that men and people in crisis can't solve for themselves?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Subtly, no. Not as society, 'cause as a society, who's part... No, I mean you. I mean, your in- lis- listeners as individuals need to take responsibility. And it's not that you, you have to take responsibility. It's not fair to you to be responsible for someone else. But un- unless any- everyone who's listening to this podcast goes out and literally hugs a man, no one else is gonna do it. Because if you don't do it, who's gonna do it? You can't rely on society. We've been relying on society to fix the problem. It's not working. Society
- 38:59 – 41:11
Why Are Women's Suicide Rates Increasing?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
can't do shit.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So you're saying me?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Me, yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Forget society. Don't, don't wait for government to have some kind of intervention.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
How is it working out?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not great. I mean, this... The direction of travel as it relates to these sort of key issues like loneliness are only getting worse and worse. Suicidality seems to be getting worse and worse.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Mm-hmm.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Now you've got this young generation of women as well that are, um, exploding in their suicidality.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yes.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Young women. Uh, I think it's the fastest growing group at the moment, if my stats are correct there.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah, so we have... One (laughs) really interesting thing is that, that, uh, men and women are becoming more equal in many ways, but unfortu- in unfortunate ways. So, uh, female suicidality is getting worse. Um, we're also seeing, like, male body dysmorphia on the rise, and I suspect it's way worse than we realize. But I think that what we're starting to see is less of a discrepancy in gender-related health issues. So the, the things that used to be predominantly men are now women are catching up, which is a bad thing. And things that were predominantly w- women, now men are catching up. So body dysmorphia in men, addictions in women are on the rise. Um, so I... And, and yeah, so there's... Things are getting worse.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Wh- wh- what explains that, specifically the, the suicidality in young women? I hear soc- social media is a leading cause of that, but...
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah, so I, I think if we look at it, uh, it's not just social media. So I think what's happened is that the fundamental day of a man and woman, I believe, I don't know if this is factually correct, is getting closer and closer. So, like, you know, women are working now. Men are working now. Like, dating is hard. Like, being on Tinder sucks if you're a dude or a woman for different reasons. Um, we get... We have a lot of technological influence, so, like, everyone's kind of getting screwed, and we're all kinda getting screwed together. And just because things are getting bad or worse for men and men are in crisis does not... has no relation to the fact that women are struggling for a whole different set of reasons. So there's plenty of biases that I see as a psychiatrist. There's biases against men in psychiatry. There's biases against women in psychiatry. I think one of the biggest mistakes that we make is that we seem to think that it's like a pendulum, where it's like if we're biased against men, we can't also be biased against women. But I think both groups can suffer at the same time catastrophically.
- 41:11 – 47:53
The Role Of Social Media In Our Mental Health
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
And they are.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I want to talk about the role of social media. Your book is called How to Raise a Healthy Gamer. And when I think about gaming, I think some people think about it like holding a controller and being a, I don't know, a character in a video game or shooting something or whatever. But many of these social media apps are almost indistinguishable from gaming in many respects. So the role of social media in our mental health in the modern world, um, good, bad, indifferent?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So bad right now. So let's understand something. So social media and technology is kind of like introducing an invasive species. So there's no, there's no checks and balances right now. So I don't think gaming is evil. So, so I, I struggled with video game addiction. I play video games with my kids now. So the, the main problem with social media and technology is that it's completely unregulated, and we don't know how to fight against it. So what's happening right now is, especially if you look at social media, is that, like, it is affecting our brains, and we're outgunned. So if you kind of, like, look at, for example, we're talking about masculinity, right? And what's my antidote to that? It's introspection. So if we sort of look at these yogic or meditative skills, as we train ourselves in these skills, we will become impervious to the negative effects of technology. The problem is that these things are so good at literally shaping our thoughts. So as an example, if we look at social media, you know, body dysmorphia and insecurity about the way that we feel about ourselves can lead to things like suicidality, okay? So as we look at, you know, all these pretty people on social media, you look at all these people who are not normal...Right? So social media will show you the prettiest people. And so w- we start a- as I see pretty face after pretty face after pretty face, I start to think that that is normal. My brain makes this calculation, and then I start to feel ugly. So I- this results in body dysmorphia. So if we sort of look at that, the more we see pretty things, the more that we have FOMO, because everyone is having fun, right? If I log on to Facebook or Instagram, this person is having a birthday party, this person is having... Every, every time I log on, everyone is having a blast. But this is 365 people who each have one birthday party. I get one birthday party a year, but any time I look at in- social media, it seems like everyone is always having fun. It's not everyone. It's just one person is having fun today, one person is having fun tomorrow. Everyone just gets one birthday a year. But when we see it, we see everyone's having fun, and I'm not having fun. So this makes us feel bad about ourselves. So what is the antidote to that? So in the yogic tradition, we have this concept of ahankara or ego. So you have particular meditative practices that help you dissolve your ego. And essentially what social media does is amplifies our ego, makes us feel really bad about ourselves. Remember that one of the key hallmarks is comparison of ego. So social media induces a lot of comparison. So as we train our mind, we will become free from those problems. So if I learn how to dissolve my ego, then social media's not a problem.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Easier said than done.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You even said that you've still got an ego.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Ab- 100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And you've done all this practice, and you've still got an ego.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Have you dissolved it at all?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Oh, absolutely. So, I mean, it's, it's way smaller than it used to be. But even to say that I have completely dissolved my ego is an egotistical statement. So this is a, this is a battle that I will never win, and I've just accepted that, right? So I'm, uh, there's no way to win. I'm not going to become enlightened in this day and age. So I'm just going to do the best that I can, and I'll never succeed. That's okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
There's so many sh- shocking stats that kind of links to two things we've talked about here around connection and relationships. Um, I think we, we all know intuitively now, especially with all the research and data that's come out, how important relationships are for mental health, gaming, social media, the digital world, the Vision Pro. I bought one yesterday. Virtual reality, augmented reality. As we head more towards these digital worlds, are you concerned at all that we're losing sight of connection? And, and I, I sit that in con- in comparison or alongside the stats that we know about sexlessness, people having less sex, marriages seeming to get, um, worse and worse and more difficult. The direction of travel here doesn't feel like it's very optimistic.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah, it's not.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And, and what, uh, what do we do about that? Did you... do you think we just become gurus and leave the digital world and the Western world and try and escape and take our kids with us? I had someone talk, talk to me about that idea.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
No. So I don't think so, right? So, so my book is how to be a... how to raise a healthy gamer. What I believe is that the- these things are only evil if we don't know how to deal with them. So what's happened is human beings have created fire for the first time, but we don't know how to control fire. So w- we don't need to run away from technology. We just need to get better at dealing with it. And getting better at dealing with it is everything from maybe government regulation or whatever, to even training our, like, personal sense of self. So if you sort of look at, like, why are relationships decaying? It's for a number of reasons. The first is that... see, human relationships evolutionarily were predicated on the fact that humans needed each other for survival. So fundamentally, what has always bound human beings together is like, "I need you, and you need me. Otherwise, we're not going to survive." But what's happening in the world today is we no longer need each other for survival. So I never even need to leave my house. I can order groceries. I can order food. I can work from home. I can literally stay in my home or in my room, and I never need to walk out of the house. I never need to interact with someone. So once you remove necessity from the equation as to why human beings form relationships... so we're seeing a decay in relationships because we no longer need each other, right? So women no longer need men. You can have an independent life. As a man, you no longer need a woman. You can get a Fleshlight if you want to. You can have an AI girlfriend. You have pornography. You, you don't... you don't... we don't need each other. And yet the, the human mind is the only organ of the body that, in order for be h- it to be healthy, it requires another human being. So we don't need... our heart can be healthy without another human. Kidneys can be healthy. Liver can be healthy. Our whole body can be healthy except for the brain and except for the mind. We need someone else to be mentally healthy. So now what we're going to have to do as a society is evolve. We're gonna have to start to realize that we don't need relationships anymore in order to survive. But without them, we will all suffer. And so what we need to do is evolve as humans. And I think part of that is, like, learning some of these yogic and meditation skills so that we can resist the influences, the negative influences of technology. But that also means prioritizing relationships even when we don't need to.
- 47:53 – 51:44
Should Yoga Be Taught At School?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Do you think they should teach these skills in school, the yogic?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Could be a good time to intervene, wouldn't it?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yes, 100%. And I've taught these kids, uh, these, these skills to kids. And it's amazing how quickly they pick it up. It's hard for me and you to learn because we're already formed. But just like a language, like if you teach it to a child, I'll teach... you know, like I... I'll... uh, you know, I taught infants to meditate, my own children. I taught them to meditate when they were, like, two.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What does that mean? What are... what are these skills? If you were trying to teach a grownup like me, where would you begin?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So I'll tell you where I began with my kids (laughs) and then, then we'll get to you.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Please, yeah.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So let's understand what meditation is. So meditation is controlling the attention of your mind. So if I tell my mind to focus on this, it's going to focus on this. So if we look at meditation, there are a couple of key steps. The first is...... ignoring impulses. So if I tell my mind to focus on this object, it will have an impulse to focus on something else. So we have to train the mind to stop thinking about other things. So I teach this to my four-year-old in a very fun way. I tell her to lay down on the ground and we play this game called Sniffer-Gobbler, where I'm a monster called a sniffer-gobbler, and she has to be perfectly still. So the sniffer-gobbler is going to try to get her to move, and if she moves then she gets gobbled. So this becomes a game. So I'm kind of trying to get her to move, I'm tickling her a little bit, I'm sniffing or whatever, I'm playing some kind of game with her. And she's being perfectly rigid because it's part of a game. So what's going on in her brain in this moment? There's, as I tickle her, there's an impulse to move. The peripheral body is sending nervous signals to the brain, "Let's move. Let's, let's shift. Let's do something. Let's, let's do something." But her frontal lobes in that moment are learning to restrain her mind and literally control her impulses. So this is step number one, is stop your impulses. You can learn this very simply by, for example, I would recommend for someone like you, a practice called Trataka. So Trataka is fixed-point gazing. So you take a candle and you look, you gaze at the candle without blinking. So the first 10 seconds will be easy, but then you'll start to get signals. Let's blink, let's blink, let's blink, let's blink. It's going to start to burn and they're going to start to tear up. You probably won't get hurt, don't worry about it, it's a s- safe practice. Um, because then your m- eyes will start to water and they'll lubricate, which is usually what our eyelids need to do. And so you'll start to have tears, but then you focus your mind, and now what you're literally doing is controlling your impulses, you're restraining your impulses. So that's the first step of meditation, is to not let your mind wander into a thousand different things. Now if you do this one practice, which is not even real meditation, your life will be transformed. So you will literally... It's like lifting weights for self-control. So now you're sitting down to, to eat a meal, s- 11:00 PM rolls around, you have those cravings, but if you've done Trataka, your frontal lobes will be strengthened. And as your frontal lobes become strengthened, you are able to resist your impulses. You will gain control over yourself. That's step one. Just resist your impulses. This is usually why meditation practices involve sitting and focusing, and, like, not moving even. The second step is a little bit different. There's a difference between avoiding distraction and then pushing my mind to focus on a different thing. So then, for example, what I'll do with my, my daughter is I'll tell her to chant om and maximize the feeling of vibration in your chest. So now what she's doing is she's attuned to her body, she's chanting om, and then she's trying to maximize the vibration. So in this moment, she's using something to focus the attention of her mind, because her mind is fully on the chest and feeling that vibration. And then she's kind of experimenting a little bit, but she's really tuned in. And that trains our mind to focus on one thing. So these are steps number one and two. So the first thing you've gotta do is avoid impulses and distractions, and the second thing is teach your mind how to sit on one thing and don't go any- anywhere else. That's step one and two. And then you'll be ready for meditation.
- 51:44 – 54:53
What Is Meditation And The Biggest Misunderstanding?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what is meditation?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So meditati- the word meditation in English has three Sanskrit words that get translated into meditation. Dharana, dhyana, and samadhi. So dharana is technically a focusing technique. It's something that you do. So I can tell you, "Gaze at a candle flame without blinking." This is a dharana, it is a focusing technique. This is what's confusing for a lot of people. The second, uh, word for meditation is dhyana. So dhyana is not something you can do, it's a state of mind. So I'll ex- explain this very simply. Do you know how to go to sleep?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Me, no. I mean, well, I go to bed and I lay do- lay down and I then I usually put something on so I can listen to as I fall asleep.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Is that how I sleep?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
H- how should I sleep? Pretend I don't know how to sleep. Can you teach me how to sleep?
- SBSteven Bartlett
(laughs) Go to the bedroom.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
'Kay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Um...
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Done that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Make, make sure it's nice and cold.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Lay there, uh, in the bed, and close your eyes.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Okay.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And wish for the best.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So I, I laid there and I closed my eyes. I have a blanket over me, it's cold, and I'm not asleep yet. What am I doing wrong? What do I need to do to go to sleep?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Maybe you're not tired enough.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Have you slept before?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Have you done it a lot?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
But you can't tell me how to do it?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Not really, no.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely. So sleep is a state of consciousness. So going to bed is something that you do, and then sleep happens to you. This is the biggest misunderstanding about meditation. Everyone's focused on meditation techniques. These are dharanas. If you are in a dharana, as you gaze at the candle for an extended period of time, your mind will enter a state of consciousness in the same way that you enter sleep, but you can't control it. You can't do it, you can't evoke it. You just have to create the right environment, and then the consciousness will trigger. The closest thing that many people experience is the flow state. But even in the flow state, there is mental activity. So the flow state is like the early stage of meditation. And then after you enter dhyana, which is a state of consciousness which is of no mind, so you have awareness but you have no thoughts, no emotions. You're just simply aware. The best example of this that, that some people have experienced, a couple of things. One is orgasm. The moment of orgasm is one where you have no thoughts. Thoughts come afterward, thoughts come before. But in that moment of orgasm, you are aware, you are present, you are blissful, but you have no thoughts or no mental activity. Sometimes also, like, looking at the sun, like, uh, watching a sunset, walking along the beach, there are some moments where you're present, you're not really thinking about anything, but you're not asleep, you're not daydreaming. This is what dhyana is. This is the second stage of meditation. After you sit in dhyana for a while, then you will attain something called samadhi. So these are the transcendental states of meditation. This is the kind of stuff that psychedelics does to you. So when you enter these samadhi states, this is when you start to get transformed and all this weird stuff that's very hard to describe. So I would say that meditation is these three things. It's a focusing technique, followed by a state of consciousness that, fingers crossed, get induced...And once you're in that state, then you can kind of start climbing.
- 54:53 – 56:06
The Important Impact Of Meditation On Our Lives?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
And what impact does ha- has it had on your life?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Transformative. Completely changed my life. I mean, I, I used to be a 25-year-old kid with nothing to show for it. And now, arguably, I'm successful, right? So I'm an entrepreneur, I'm a Harvard-trained psychiatrist, I have a clinical practice, I'm a dad, I'm a content creator. And it's like, I'm the same kid that was failing out of college. Like, I haven't changed. The only difference between the loser and the successful person, which neither of those are true, by the way. Those are both manifestations of ego. I'm neither a loser nor am I successful. These are external trappings. But fundamentally, I'm the same person that I've always been. And the only difference is that meditation taught me how to control this thing. It's like when you're living life, it's like you're playing a video game and the controller is unplugged. So the character on the screen does whatever the fuck it wants to, and you're trying to send it signals, but it's not listening to you. So what meditation is, is the process of plugging in your controller so that you start controlling the instrument of your life. You understand how your body works, you understand how your mind works, you understand where your desires come from, you understand how to conquer them, you understand what your ego is, you understand all of these kinds of things. And meditation is what helped
- 56:06 – 1:01:06
What Stops People From Meditating?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
me do that.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The thing with meditation that, the, the sort of instant rebuttal is, "I tried it and it didn't work," or, "I tried it and I can't stop myself from thinking about things." That's, like, what I hear all the time.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"Oh, I can't meditate. I tried it, my ba- my brain's too busy."
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Okay, great. So let's rebut those (laughs) . As I've, I've helped at least 1,000 people overcome this, so let's understand a couple of fundamentals. See, if you've tried meditation and it didn't work for you, it's not your problem, and it's not that meditation doesn't work for you. It's that you had a crappy teacher. So if we understand, okay, like, this is something that we... How do people learn how to meditate?
- SBSteven Bartlett
They hear a podcast like this, and then they go sit in their room at some point, and then they close their eyes and try to think of nothing. And it doesn't work, so they stop.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Okay, great. So, like, who is their teacher?
- SBSteven Bartlett
The Diary of a CEO. (laughs)
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Right? But, eh, this is what I mean. So, so the quality of meditation teaching has degraded so profoundly. Everyone has mindfulness apps. What's your teacher? It's an app.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So if I were to say, like, "Okay, like, you know, Stephen, you're a pretty crappy surgeon, but you've never gone to medical school. How would you expect to ever be a decent surgeon unless you literally had people teach you?" So there are a couple of things that, uh, uh... I learned how to meditate because I had expert teachers. The reason that I teach meditation successfully is because I'm a decent teacher. I'm not even the best teacher out there. So a couple of things to understand about meditation. One is that there are 112 meditation techniques, one of which will work very naturally for every person on the planet, okay? So the number one reason that people suck at meditation is because we're not teaching them the right kind of meditation. As a simple example, so I have patients with ADHD, and I try, I teach them very successfully to meditate. Now, a lot of these patients, when they come to me, they say, "Meditation doesn't work for me because I can't get my mind to slow down and focus on one thing. It always wanders." To which I say, "That's great. No problem. We're going to teach you meditation that's going to feel so easy for you." So let me ask you this. If I, if I've got a kid, okay, who's running around and I want my kid to sit still, how do I get the kid to sit still?
- SBSteven Bartlett
How do people typically do that?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
They shout, they shout at the kid.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Okay, so-
- SBSteven Bartlett
Try and punish.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
... the kid sits still for a little while. Then what happens?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Runs off again.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely. So how do I get a kid to sit still? When does a child sit?
- SBSteven Bartlett
When it's playing a game.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Okay, so we can engage it in some way. So at, like, if... Like, this is what... I don't know if you've seen this, but in airports, they'll have, like, these little play places.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So the best way to get a child to sit down is to tell it to run. "You run. Go to the playground. Go to the playground for an hour." And then what'll, what'll the child do? Naturally, "I want to sit down." So when I'm teaching my patients with ADHD how to meditate, I don't tell them to slow down their mind. I tell them to move it as fast as you can. So I'll literally take my, my patients to a cafeteria, and we sit in the cafeteria, and I tell my patient, "You have to pay attention to as many sounds as you can as quickly as you can. I want you to hear every sound in the cafeteria. Don't miss a single one. Don't pay attention to what people are saying, but hear the words, hear this sound, hear this sound, hear this sound, hear this sound." So what I'm really telling their, their mind to do is run instead of sit still. Eventually what happens is they're paying attention to sound number one, then sound number two, sound number three. Not fast enough. Faster. You need to listen to ten sounds in three seconds. Go faster, go faster, go faster, go faster. And eventually, the mind gets tired. And then the mind naturally sits down. Easiest meditation in the world. Then they enter dhyan. So what are they doing in dharana? They're paying attention to sound number one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, and then eventually, the mind will calm down. It'll get exhausted, and then they'll enter dhyan. And then they've learned to meditate. So I think the reason that meditation doesn't work for people is because they haven't tried the right technique. So you look like a guy who exercises. You exercise?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
How do you exercise?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Go to the gym and lift the weights.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Okay. What about running?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Yeah, sometimes.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Swimming?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No, can't swim.
- 1:01:06 – 1:04:00
How Does Meditation Help With Addiction?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
And does meditation help us with these addictions we've been talking about?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Social media, social media addictions. Uh, porn addictions, you talk about as well. Um, gaming addictions.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
I, I think it, I, I think I would go as far as to say that it conquers them all. So that's kind of a, a grandiose statement. But if we really look at what is an addiction. An addiction is two things. It is a source of pleasure and it is an antidote to pain. So anytime we look at any addiction. So opium, for example, gives me pleasure and it also numbs out, it shuts off the functioning of my amygdala and my limbic system. Video games shut off my amygdala and my limbic system, make my negative emotions go away and release dopamine. So we have dopamine release and we have suppression of our negative emotional circuitry. All addictions do this. So if you sort of look at it, how do we, why do we fall into an addiction? It's because we become dependent on this dopamine surge, on giving into our wants, right? So our mind says, "I want this thing," and we can't control that impulse when it wants something, "I have to give it. I can't control it. I'm too weak." The other thing that happens is that when, anytime we have pain, we have to run away from it. But meditation is literally the process of training those two skills. So when I have a want, I learn to resist it. I want to scratch my nose? No scratching your nose. And what we sort of know from a neuroscience, uh, standpoint is that, we know that meditation strengthens our frontal lobes, and weak frontal lobes are fertile ground for addictions. So we know that we literally strengthen the parts of the brain that will help you resist an addiction from the pleasure side. The other cool thing about meditation is that it makes us not impervious to pain, but we stop avoiding pain. So you asked me, like, am I nervous about how the book is going to... No, if it's, if it, if it, if it crashes and burns, then I will be sad. So what? Right? So I'm going to be sad. Will I be sad forever? Well, that depends on whether I base my sense of identity on this one book. I'll be sad for some amount of time. And that sadness, by the way, is karmically what I bought when I wrote the book. And I think this is something that a lot of people miss. But the moment that I write the book, I open myself up to the pleasure of it being a success, and the pain of it being a failure. Does that make sense?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Mm-hmm.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So if I really wanted to avoid the pain, the only solution is to not write the book in the first place. But that's not the way to live life. So meditation teaches us how to tolerate pain, how to accept pain. And then once you can accept pain, oh my God, your life will become so much easier. And then something beautiful happens. Now I don't have to use the opium. I don't... I mean, my day job is in, is as an addiction psychiatrist. So I teach this stuff to people who are addicted to heroin and fentanyl and video games and stuff like that. And it works for all of them. Not all of them, most of them. And so meditation absolutely helps because it, it literally strengthens the parts of our brain that addictions prey on.
- 1:04:00 – 1:07:09
Our Biggest Addiction Is Success
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
And these are all addictions? So like, food addictions and porn addictions-
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely.
- SBSteven Bartlett
...and gaming addictions and social media addictions, um...
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So each addiction has a slightly different manifestation. But the core aspect of providing pleasure and taking away pain is true of all addictions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is, what is the most popular addiction, in your mind, that the, the vast majority of society are currently, um, prey to but don't really realize? I mean, I, I'm reading through your book, I think phone addiction, which you talk about in chapter seven, is maybe the thing that none, none of us see as an addiction, but we're probably addicted. If I look at my screen time, I think, "Jesus Christ."
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
The most popular... Yeah, so I think phone addiction is really bad. I mean, (laughs) in a weird way, I'd say, this doesn't really qualify as an addiction, but the biggest problem I think is, is our addiction to success.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Hmm.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Right? So if we sort of (laughs) think about it, like I, I don't know if that's kind of the context of the... it's just where my mind goes. But if we sort of think about it, everyone is using success as an antidote to their pain and a source of their pleasure. And so here we are chasing all of these things for success, for success, for success. But in terms of like technology or like, from a psychiatric perspective, I think phone is probably at the top of the list.
- SBSteven Bartlett
I think I've been quite confused about something in my life. But just generally, because I, when I think about those young men that are struggling or young women that are struggling, I often think what their life is lacking is a sense of purpose and ambition and something to strive for. This is kind of what we say. But now I'm kind of confused based on what you've said, because is that what that, that they're missing? Do... like, you, you see a kid, he's 22 years old, he's in his mom's basement. He, you know, low self-esteem, playing video games all day, doesn't respect himself, low self-worth. In my head, I used to think, "Okay, well what that kids need, what that kid needs is a big goal to strive for."
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Uh, fair, fair enough. So but let's, let's pay attention to your specific language. So you said what that kid needs is purpose, ambition, and something to strive for. Are those three things the same?
- SBSteven Bartlett
No.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Right? So this is the big, core of the problem, is this is why things get muddled, and this is why people get confused. Because ambition is very different from purpose. They're like at opposite ends of the spectrum. If we look at it from a scientific perspective, the number one thing that correlates, or one of the two most popular, or two variables that correlate the most with pornography addiction is meaninglessness in life. So if you want to conquer your pornography addiction, you have to have a reason to not jerk off and watch porn all day. So you have to have a life that, like, makes it so that you just don't do that. Because what happens is if you have an empty life and your brain is kind of sitting there and it's like, "Okay, we're not doing anything anyway, so let me get some dopamine. Like, let's just do that." And that's how people become addicted to pornography.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Is there a correlation there between when people masturbate and what they're going through in their life?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Absolutely. So, so it's not even masturbation with pornography addiction. But what we find is that the more emotional, the more their amygdala and limbic system gets activated, the more pornography they will use. So the more negative e- emotion you experience...... the more pornography you will watch.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Why? Because they want dopamine.
- 1:07:09 – 1:07:41
Dissatisfaction Leads To Watching Pornography
- SBSteven Bartlett
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
No, no. So th- this is where it avoids the pain. So pornography shuts off our experience of negative emotions. It's not even the pleasure, it's the avoidance of the negative emotion.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So if I'm really stressed and I'm going through a lot of shit at work, I will... I have a higher chance of masturbating that day?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Not even masturbating, watching pornography.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Okay.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So masturbation is what leads to the dopamine, but watching pornography will shut off the negative emotions. So I've worked with people who have pornography addiction, for example, that will have work on one screen, and they will literally have pornography open and playing on the second screen.
- SBSteven Bartlett
You're joking?
- 1:07:41 – 1:08:43
How To Help People With Addiction?
- SBSteven Bartlett
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
No. Very common. See, we don't talk about pornography addiction. (laughs) So, so like... And, and the worse their life is, the more stress they have. That's when I'll ask them, you know, "When are the days that you have porn open on the second screen?" And they'll say, it's like... It's the day... The stress... The worse their stress gets, the worse their use gets.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So how do you help that person?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
You teach them a couple of things. One is that you have to understand what the pain is, right? So and, and then you teach them alternate emotional regulation skills. So if you teach them other ways to manage their emotions, they won't need the pornography. The reason that porn is so addictive is because from a biological perspective, we're so wired for sex, that it is a very effective way to shut off our negative emotions. But if you can teach them how to manage their negative emotions... And the second thing that we do is we metabolize the source of your negative emotions. So if there is some kind of trauma at the root, as we heal that trauma, the drive for the addiction will melt away.
- 1:08:43 – 1:10:20
Does Addiction Create Shame?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
Interesting. Have you dealt with a lot of people that have a pornography addiction?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Sure.
- SBSteven Bartlett
And that the sort of common thread is that they all have some kind of early trauma. And they... I read in your book as well that those people are typically exposed to pornography at a younger age.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yes. So there's all kinds of stuff that happens. But yeah, usually people have, what I would say is they have unmetabolized emotions or a source of constant streaming of negative emotions.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Does it create shame-
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
100%.
- SBSteven Bartlett
... in those people? Is that one of the... ?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
That's the problem, right? So as I become addicted to pornography, I feel ashamed of myself. And what's my antidote to shame, Steven?
- SBSteven Bartlett
Pornography.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
There we go.
- SBSteven Bartlett
So the... That's the downward spiral.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah.
- SBSteven Bartlett
The upward spiral looks like, like getting out of there. So I'm watching-
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So-
- SBSteven Bartlett
... pornography. I do something. I need less pornography.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah. So, so oftentimes what the upward spiral looks like is when you feel shame, come and talk to me, right? So we're going to talk about what you feel ashamed of, you're going to vent that negative emotion. So we also know this is something that Freud discovered, is that experiencing emotion, even if it's not related to a real event, weakens the emotion. So what he sort of found is that if you can get someone to cry in your office as a psychotherapist, and they vent that emotion out, they feel lighter, they feel better, the emotional energy has left their body in some way. So that, and then we oftentimes will get to the source of their trauma, and we're going to metabolize that emotion that's really deep down there, and that's kind of like... It's kind of like an oil well that's just pumping up this black stuff. So we shut off the oil well, we teach them alternate emotional regulation skills, and we work on building a life that is worth living.
- 1:10:20 – 1:11:09
Case Study: How Any Transformation Is Possible?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
What is one example from your practice where someone has gone from really zero to a remarkable place? Is there a case study that comes to mind where you go, "Oh my God, that is proof that any transformation is possible"?
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Sure. So there's a privacy concern.
- SBSteven Bartlett
Of course.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
So I'm happy to be a little bit general here. But, um, you know, so I had someone who was... Started using opiates in their teenage years. Uh, and at the age of 32, went back to school, um, and has developed a career and became a best-selling author by the age of 36. So in the four years that we worked together, they got to writing, which is the... What they always wanted to do, published a book, and, like, the book was very, very successful. And then they actually have a separate career on top of that.
- 1:11:09 – 1:12:41
Having The First Conversation With An Addict
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
- SBSteven Bartlett
Chapter Five, The First Conversation.
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Oh.
- SBSteven Bartlett
"The hardest thing about talking to someone about an addiction they have is that the first conversation has to be open without it affecting their gaming addiction, in this case. That first conversation is the diff- most difficult often."
- AKDr. Alok Kanojia
Yeah, so it's not just for addiction. So if we sort of understand, like, the first conversation that you have with someone about something that they're not doing well in their life, and this relates to, like, men or incels or whatever, you have to approach that non-judgmentally. So if you want to connect with someone... And a big part of what I believe about addiction, and I learn- not believing, this is true, (laughs) is that you can't cure an addiction for someone else. So they have to want to stop. So I've had people... I... You know, I used to work at two rehabs, and these are like 30-day rehabs where people get forced into rehab, never going to work. The person themselves has to want to stop the addiction, conquer the addiction, quit the addiction, in order for it to be successful. So how do you convince someone that, "Okay, this is a problem and, like, you need to stop this"? You can't, you can't really convince them. But the best that you can do is approach them non-judgmentally, right? So, like, "Help me understand what is going on in your life. Help me understand why you use this thing." Like, you can have judgments in your mind, that's okay, but be open-minded and be compassionate. Recognize that if this person is doing something, they are doing it for a reason. If they didn't get... If their brain did not get more benefit than harm out of it, then their brain would not be doing it.
Episode duration: 1:32:59
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