Dr Rangan Chatterjee: 3 Steps To "Core" Happiness | E129

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 0:00 I internalized this idea that unless I get 100%, unless I win, I'm not good enough, I'm not loved. Doctor and broadcaster, Dr. Rangan Chatterjee. Your first book was a huge success. My guest today is the perfect guest.

Steven Bartlett 0:14 It's a really big honor to have you on my podcast.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 0:17 My son, Jainam, getting sick at six months old changed the course of my career. You see, we need to evolve the way that we practice medicine. Sleep deprivation is associated with pretty much every single chronic disease we have. Compared to about 60 years ago, we may have lost up to 25% of our sleep. The way society is set up now is making us lonely. We've moved away for work, we've moved away from our families, we don't have the tribes around us, and it's very, very damaging for our health. It took me ages to, to figure this out . I think you can always make a change, right? You can use these moments of adversity in your life to teach you something. It's the best journey you'll ever take, but it's a journey. It's not a one hit. The first step in any change is ...

Steven Bartlett 1:04 So without further ado, I'm Steven Bartlett, and this is the Diary of a CEO. I hope nobody's listening, but if you are, then please keep this to yourself. (instrumental music) Dr. Rangan Chatterjee, I, um, I have to say, I have to start this conversation by saying it's a really big honor to have you on my podcast, because you are someone, when I started taking my podcast seriously, who I looked up to and admired for so many reasons. Not because you are ... you've really kind of paved the way for these long form conversations in the UK, but because you have the same, very similar subject matter and apparent interest in the conversations you have with your guests, to the point that it inspired me in a really big way to start this platform. And so, when, um, when I found out that you were coming in today, it felt like, you know, it felt like a bit of a ... it felt like Christmas Day for me, because the, the conversations you have are the things that I would spend my spare time sort of, um, watering my brain with. So thank you, first and foremost, for coming in today. It's a huge, huge privilege.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 2:09 I mean, Steven, appreciate you saying that, and, and likewise, I feel really honored and excited to come on your show because I think long form conversation matters, and I don't think there's that many people in the UK doing it, like you are, like I am, and, um, you know, I think you're doing great things with your show, so I'm, I'm really excited just to have a long conversation with you. I don't know where it's gonna go, but, um, yeah, thanks for having me.

Steven Bartlett 2:34 So take me back to the foundations. Who, who were you?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 2:39 So I grew up in the northwest of England, and you know, Mom and Dad were immigrants from India. You know, Dad came over in 1962 for a better life to the UK.

Steven Bartlett 2:50 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 2:50 Uh, Mom came over in 1972. I grew up, got an older brother, and you know, like many immigrant families, education was king, right? It was about get good grades at school, go to a good university, get a good job, right? That was the, the kind of drive from home. My experience was very much, man, the culture at school is really different from the culture at home, and I didn't really think much of it at the time, but you know, now in my early 40s, looking back and reflecting as I've done for, for this new book is, that was incredibly problematic i- in many ways, because you end up pretending to be somebody you're not in order to fit in. And I can see now that's been a pattern for most of my life. I've not been myself. I'd try to be someone else. I've, I've, I'd try to do things to get validation and love from other people, and I've got to say, it's only been in the last few years where I've managed to kind of let that go. Another piece there, which I think is really relevant to your question, is because education was such a big thing, you know, because Mom and Dad, Dad in particular, so much discrimination he faced, right, when he came here. In his job, he had to change, career change specialty as a doctor, because he just couldn't advance. And so ultimately, he ended up moving to a specialty he didn't like, he didn't enjoy, to give his family security.

Steven Bartlett 4:30 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 4:30 So what do they want to do? They want their children to not have to go through that. So I grew up with this kind of idea that I'm only loved when I'm top of the class, right? I'd come home, if I'd got 99% in an exam, my mom would say, "Why didn't you get 100?" Right? If I came out, uh, with 19 out of 20 on a test, "Okay, what happened? Why didn't you get 20?" And what's really interesting about that is I'm not criticizing my parents, right? I love my parents. I think they've brought me up really well. But it, but it speaks to a situation, there's different perceptions, right? So I spoke to Mom recently. I said, "Hey, Mom, why, why did you ask me those questions? You know, why did you push me so hard?" And she said to me, "Because I knew you were capable. I wanted you to be the best that you could be." So Mom did it with me from a place of love, right? She wanted the best for me, but walk around to the other side of that story. I internalized this idea that unless I get 100%, unless I win, I'm not good enough, I'm not loved. And I can now see, that drove me my entire life, this need for external validation, what are other people saying about you? People say nice things, you feel good. People say nasty things, you are literally broken inside. So you know, a lot there that I've come to terms with over the past few years. But for me, understanding that I can go back and rewrite those stories, put a different perspective on all those events-... has given me this real sense of freedom, calm, contentness, and ultimately, you know, it's resulted in me feeling really, really happy.

Steven Bartlett 6:15 One of the things you, you said is that you believe the purpose of life is really finding out who you are, because when- once you find out who you are, then you can s- go on the journey of finding out what is- what it is you want. So my question for you is, what did you then pursue as a consequence of believing that external validation was true validation? That was true- truly your purpose? What was your- how were you misguided or led astray?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 6:40 Yeah, so I went to university at Edinburgh-

Steven Bartlett 6:43 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 6:43 ... went to Edinburgh Medical School, you know, left home having the time of my life, partying, you know, whatever. You know, people when they- they get that sort of sense of freedom for the first time. A lot of my uni life was spent playing in bands, right? So music is a big part of who I am, what I do. Um, you know, so I'd been practicing loads, we've been playing loads and loads of gigs, and then it all changed. I- I must have been 20, 21. I think Mum phoned me at, like, 10:30 at night and said, "Hey, look, Dad's in intensive care. The doctors don't think he's gonna, uh, make it through the night. Can you come back home?" And I remember seeing Dad in the intensive care unit and, you know, he ended up surviving the night. His kidneys failed, he went on kidney dialysis for the next 15 years, but basically, Dad getting ill changed the trajectory of my adult life. So yes, I was in Edinburgh, I finished off, I worked there for a couple of years, but my mind was always back in the North West. And I moved back to the North West, which is one of the reasons I live there now, to help my mum and my brother look after Dad. And it was incredibly stressful, particularly in the last years before Dad died, really, really stressful. And I would- I would escape periodically. So coming back to your question about how does that impacted me, I wanted to do well. Like, I got my specialist exams. I, uh, won- I got good jobs in prestigious hospitals.

Steven Bartlett 8:04 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 8:04 Right? I got those things. I thought, "Oh, that's what I'm doing. I'm doing the right thing." And then when Dad died in 2013, March 2013, it was like there was a big hole in my life. And so I would just go walking. I- I was just trying to make sense of everything. And the truth is, the amount I learnt from Dad's death was just profound. I'm not sure I would have learnt these things. I was asking myself, "Whose life are you really leading?" I don't regret any of it. Now that Dad's not here, I'm glad I spent so much time with him. But I think there was a real cost to me, my inner peace, my inner well-being-

Steven Bartlett 8:44 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 8:44 ... by- in Dad's death. Here- here's the irony, Steven. The things that my dad would have been proudest of, right? Indian immigrant to the UK, his son with his own BBC One show in 2015, 2016, right?

Steven Bartlett 8:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 8:57 His son with four Sunday Times bestsellers. Dad would have literally been phoning all the relatives, you know, being the embarrassing dad, telling everyone. Dad never got to see any of it, but I know if Dad was still alive, I'd be doing none of it.

Steven Bartlett 9:13 Why?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 9:15 If I was still in the mindset that I was when my dad was sick, I wouldn't have had any time to engage in this stuff. Like, life... If there's anyone listening to this who's a carer for someone in their life, they'll know what I'm talking about. You- you- you don't have time, you don't have physical time, you don't have mental space. It just- it encompasses the entirety of your life. You're just trying to keep your head above water, you're just trying to get through day-to-day.

Steven Bartlett 9:42 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 9:43 You are firefighting. So I wouldn't have had the- the physical time, but also, I think a lot of what I'm able to give to people these days, through books, through podcasts, through, you know, one-on-one with patients, is the learnings. You know, they're- they're the learnings that I've acquired from going through Dad's death, from going through that pain, from coming out the other side, from going, "What can I learn from this?" So I'm not sure if what I would have had to offer people back then would have been as valuable as what I feel I have to offer them now.

Steven Bartlett 10:21 Hmm. Why- why did you choose medicine? Was that, again, part of this broader thing of thinking that was success and that would be- that would satisfy parents or co- you know, society? Because again, there's a bit of a stereotype, isn't there, there, with a- I- Indian immigrant coming over and- and, you know, when I sit here with, um, people from that- that background, typically the narrative is- and to be fair, in my case as well as an African immigrant, that success is doctor, lawyer, et cetera.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 10:50 100%. You know, it- it is a stereotype, but- but it's largely true for many families. You know, as an Indian immigrant's child in the UK, the three careers that generally (laughs) are available to you are doctor, lawyer, engineer.

Steven Bartlett 11:08 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 11:08 That's what is valued. Of course, just to be clear, that's not every single family, but just by and large-

Steven Bartlett 11:16 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 11:16 ... I think that's true. But I tell you this, Steven, I know loads of them who are so unhappy as doctors.

Steven Bartlett 11:22 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 11:22 So unhappy. They compensate for the tedium of their work, right, by getting smashed on a Friday and Saturday nights, right?

Steven Bartlett 11:31 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 11:31 And they wonder why they can't give up boozing or why they enjoy it so much. Well, 'cause that's a symptom.

Steven Bartlett 11:36 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 11:37 It's not a- the drinking isn't the problem, the drinking is a symptom. You don't enjoy your job, you've gone into the wrong career because you thought it was what you should do. Sometimes you're stuck now in your 30s, you've got a mortgage, you know, you've got a lease on your car, and you feel trapped.

Steven Bartlett 11:57 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 11:57 But you can free yourself from that trap. You- you absolutely can, but you have to be honest, you have to get to know who you currently are now before you've got any hope at becoming the person that you ideally want to be.

Steven Bartlett 12:12 It's so unbelievably true in every way. I mean, so much of that I can relate to for so many reasons. And, you know, you were talking there about your- your, almost your parents' misplaced love. What you've clearly managed to figure out later in your life is that actually came from a place of love.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 12:27 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 12:28 Uh, that's why I call it misplaced love, because they were trying to protect you because they loved you. But it turns out that that misplaced love, what it's doing is it's stopping you from being your truest self, and the c- the long-term consequences of that, when you li- end up living someone else's life, is what you've spoken to there, the symptoms of addiction and drinking and- and impulsive behavior that we see in people. So, my o- overall conclusion there was this urgent need, as soon as possible in your life, to get in touch with exactly who you are and defend it at all-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 13:03 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 13:03 ... costs. At all co- If you can do it at 16, do it. If you're 45 and listening to this, now is the b- the second-best time. (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 13:10 Yeah, I mean, uh, I've got so much to say on that. Um, you're never too late-

Steven Bartlett 13:16 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 13:16 ... to start on this journey. But how does someone start on that journey, right? I- I think it comes down to values, right? Values is what ... I think what sews it all up together, right? So, you know, for- for this new book, I've created this new model of happiness I call core happiness. So core happiness has three components: alignment, contentment, and control. We can talk about those if you want. But one of those legs is alignment. Alignment is when your inner values and your external actions are the same, when the person who you want to be inside and the person you are actually being in the world are one and the same. That's one component. It's not everything, but it's one component. So if someone has heard what we're talking about and say, "Okay, I wanna start. I'm not living the life that I want to lead, but I don't know where to start," there's this exercise in the book called The Identity Menu, and the goal is really that you go through ... And I s- I picked a number three 'cause I think it's quite a, um, a realistic number for people. Out of the list of all these possible identities and values, which three do you think feel kinda the most true to you? And I've been doing this for a little while, and the three that have been pretty static with me for the past few months now, I'd say, and they're right at the top of my Instagram profile because I think this is what I want to give to the world and say, "Let's lead with our values." Integrity, curiosity, and compassion. So this is who I am, right? I'm not a doctor. I'm not a father. Now, I- I- I really ... I think this is such an important point that I've been thinking a lot about it for the last few years. I have a role as a doctor. I have a role as a father. But it's not who I am, because when we cling too tightly to our identities, we put ourselves in a very fragile position. Let's say, you know, I go around, "I'm- I'm the doctor." You know, "I'm Dr. Chatterjee." You know, and I- I sort of absorb that, and I think that's who I am. Then what happens if I get fired? Right? What happens if I get sick and I can't work as a doctor? What happens when I retire? This- this is real. This happens to people. They lose their sense of who they are. What about my role as a father, right? To be really clear, me bringing up my kids well is one of the most important things to me, more important than my work, 100%. But being a good father is not who I am. If I cling too tightly to that, what happens when my kids are teenagers and they get annoyed and they call me a crap dad? I've seen this happen. I've had patients come in, say, or they call me a crap mum, but, you know, "That's all I did. I- I d- I do everything for them. I've given everything up for them." It's like, wait a minute. You are much more than your roles. You know, let's talk about our cars, right? You- you said when you were 20 you wrote down what you wanted, right? There's nothing wrong with having a nice car. The problem comes, for your happiness at least, when you identify with that car, where that car says something about you. And the problem is, you drive around ... I don't mean you. One drives around in their flash BMW, let's say, and they think, you know, "That says something about me and who I am." What happens if you lose your job? What happens if you prang it? What happens if you have a divorce and you can't afford it anymore? You go from what I call core happiness to junk happiness. Junk happiness is what many of us think happiness is, right? We think it's that momentary hit of pleasure, you know, buying something online, Instagram, uh, a chocolate bar, uh, a hit of booze, right? These things can be pleasurable things. They may have their role from time to time, but don't mistake that for being real core happiness. Core happiness is, I think, what we are chasing, but I think we misdefine it.

Steven Bartlett 17:23 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 17:23 We think it's something it's not. Happiness, it's not a destination that we one day get to, right? It- it's a direction that you can choose to take in life. It's a choice, right? I heard your conversation with Mo in the hotel room last night, which was fantastic, so good. And I agree with what you and Mo were saying. Happiness is a choice

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 17:47 when you understand what happiness really is.

Steven Bartlett 17:50 What is it?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 17:51 It's not a thing that you can get to. It's not something that you can pursue directly. It's something that ensues when you do the right things, and the right things for me are when you focus on the three-It, I, I call core happiness this three-legged stool: alignment, contentment, control. You can apply it to anything in life. I, I think that's what happiness is, and I think we are pursuing it. Like, people say, "We shouldn't be purs- uh, we shouldn't be going after happiness, we should be going after meaning." Mm-hmm. Have you heard that? Yeah. Yeah, all the time. Right. I have a different perspective. (laughs) Meaning and purpose is really important, no question, but I don't think that's happiness. It's meaning. Hmm. Right? It's a necessary ingredient for happiness, but it's not happiness in and of itself. And I don't mean to be controversial, but let's say, um, a soldier fighting in World War II against the Nazis, right? One might make the case that that has meaning. It doesn't mean they're happy. 100%. Right, so meaning and happiness are subtly different. Have you heard of the Japanese concept of ikigai? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Right. I love ikigai, this idea that, um, you know, we should be looking- well, not should be, but we could be looking for something in our life that we enjoy, that we're good at, that's what the world needs, and then what pays us money, right? The, the kind of Holy Grail, as it were. And I, I remember writing about this in my second book, On Stress. I remember the book came out and I was in London. I was giving, uh, a talk, and at the end of the talk, we were doing Q&A. Hmm. I remember the back right of the hall, this young lady had her hand up and she said, "Dr. Chatterjee, I'm an 18-year-old Japanese student living in London. I've grown up with the concept of ikigai my entire life, and frankly, I found it demoralizing, demotivating, too high a bar for me to get to." And that stuck with me, mate, because I thought since then, "Okay, that's so interesting," 'cause I love this concept of ikigai. She grows up with it and finds it off-putting. I think the problem with these grand ideas of meaning, purpose, ikigai, as much as I like them, they're not for everyone. Someone, someone might be hearing that in a call center right now that don't like their job, they're doing it, and they're like, "What? Ikigai? Are you kidding me, mate?" (laughs) "I just wanna get through and, and pay the bills." Right? So I think, I bring it all back, is this core happiness tool that I've created, is it applicable in all situations? I think it is, because if you look at it through the lens of what we're talking about, this comes under alignment. So that chap working in the call center, they do the exercise and they figure out kindness is something that's really important to them. Then if, on the way to work, they stop in the coffee shop and they're kind to the barista, they get on the bus to work and they're kind to the bus driver, they go to the job they don't particularly like, but they are kind to their colleagues and their boss, they're living an aligned life. They're living with meaning. It doesn't mean that the job that they're in currently is the job that they love and they're gonna be in forever, but they're living in harmony with who they are, and that's going to mean that meaning and purpose come naturally as a byproduct. Mm-hmm. So I want people to really focus on alignment. It's one pillar of happiness, and I think your meaning and purpose will come. Can you talk to me about control as well? I thought long and hard about this word control, and I ummed and ahhed. Was it the right word to use? And I spoke to some of my patients, I spoke to some of my friends. I don't really think it is, when we understand. It's about what are the things that I can do in my life that gives me a sense of control? We know from the scientific research, when you have a sense of control, right, you have better relationships, you have longer relationships, you're healthier, you have lower stress levels, you live longer. So it's that sense of control. And, and that could mean many things to, to different people. You know, for me, I'm really big on morning routines, right? I know, for me, if I get up early, if I have time to myself to have a little routine, I've, I've almost got this, like, resilient bubble around me. Doesn't matter what's going on in the world, doesn't matter how bad work may or, or may not get that day, I've got an element of control because I've, I've sort of nurtured that routine for myself. So that's one, that's one way that people can think about control. An- a- another way people might wanna think about control is, um, there's a, and there's a chapter in the book called Talk to Strangers, which is basically this idea that actually relationships are very important, of course, but there's kind of two different kinds of relationships. They're the, the deep, nurturing, intimate relationships, but there's also the ... there's also those kind of almost trivial interactions that we have day to day. Mm-hmm. Right? So when you say hi to the barista or, you know, I said hi to your work colleagues when I got here, those little things, they are not trivial. There's a network in your brain called the sociometer, right? It's constantly detecting your external world for threats, and when it receives positive information like a smile, like a, you know, a, a bit of a nod, a handshake, you know, it, it, it sort of relaxes. You, you, your, your stress levels go down. You feel a sense of connection with the world around you. Coming back to control, you feel that the external world is safe. Safe, yeah. I've got a degree of control. There is order in the world. Let's focus on these simple things you can do each day. If you say hi to the Amazon delivery driver and smile at them, say thank you to the barista and say a few nice words to them, say hi to the bus driver and smile at them, thank the postman, you are working on your happiness. Hmm. You know, it seems trivial, but it's not. The research is so, so clear, right? Because it gives you a sense of control. Second pillar of the three.

Steven Bartlett 24:13 And we've got to touch on the third pillar before I start getting into all of these topics because it's so f- so interesting that these are things, you know, we're talking about today because I think I spent all weekend, um, reading about studies on the importance of, you call it the sociometer in the brain, but just that, that thing that connects you with your tribe. But please do get into the third point, which I think you said was contentment.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 24:34 Contentment, yeah.

Steven Bartlett 24:35 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 24:35 Contentment is about feeling calm and that sense of peace when you're at peace with your life and you're at peace with your decisions. So what things in your life give you that sense of contentment? And I, and I really feel it's these three things, when you put them all together, the side effect of doing them-

Steven Bartlett 24:58 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 24:59 ... is you're happy.

Steven Bartlett 25:00 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 25:01 Right? But, but also happiness is not often what we think it is, that, that big billboard image of the, the happy family on the beach with a smile on their face and the ocean behind them, right?

Steven Bartlett 25:13 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 25:15 That, to me, is not happiness. That's a pleasurable experience.

Steven Bartlett 25:20 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 25:20 It can form part of a happy life, but that's not happiness. You can be sad and happy. The way I look at happiness, core happiness, I was thinking about this last week, I was chatting to someone who, who was going through grief. You know, someone very close to them had died and, you know, we were having a really long, deep conversation, but they were present with their grief, and they were able to share with me exactly how they were feeling. No masks on at all in terms of these kind of metaphorical masks that we put on. They were just being themselves. That's core happiness-

Steven Bartlett 26:03 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 26:03 ... because they're aligned, right? Their inner thoughts are, "I feel sad, upset, frustrated from my loss," and their external actions are completely aligned with that. So I kind of feel, really what happiness is about is living an intentional life.

Steven Bartlett 26:24 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 26:25 It's about taking the time to understand who you are, defining for yourself what happiness is or what success looks like, not using society's definition. You posted a few days ago, "Don't use society's definition of fun."

Steven Bartlett 26:39 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 26:39 That was a great post. You know, just because society says to have fun you need to go to a bar, have loud music on, and get drunk, well, if you like to sit at home in the bath reading a good book, that, that's great. If you don't, that's fine as well, but it's got to be you. It's your values. So I can't tell someone what they need to necessarily do in all aspects of th- of their life to be happy, but be intentional about your life. (page turns)

Steven Bartlett 27:08 My girlfriend came upstairs yesterday when I was having a shower, and she said to me that she tried the Huel protein shake, which lives on my fridge over there, and she said it's amazing. Low calories, you get your 20-odd grams of protein, you get your 26 vitamins and minerals, and it's nutritionally complete. In the protein space, there's lots of things, but it's hard to find something that is nice, especially when consumed just with water, and that is nutritionally complete, and that has about 100 gr- calories in total, while also giving you your 20 grams of protein. If you haven't tried the Huel protein product, do give it a try. The salted caramel one, if you put some ice cubes in it, and you put it in a blender, and you try it, is as good as pretty much any milkshake on the market, just mixed with water. It's been a game changer for me because I'm trying to drop my calorie intake, and I'm trying to be a little bit more healthy with my diet. So this is where Huel fits in my life. Thank you, Huel, for making a product that I actually like. The salted caramel is my favorite. I've got the banana one here, which is the one my girlfriend likes, but for me, salted caramel is the one.

Steven Bartlett 28:09 (page turns) You know, when people give, um, advice in their books and, you know, when I do it online with my content, there's something which I realize has to be done first. So, as much as you could have told me to get into alignment, the, the counterforce that was saying, "Fuck that," was this deep sense of insecurity and that piece of work I had to do, as you describe it, to heal first before I could start looking with a clear view at, um, the way I was living my life. Because if you'd asked Steve Bartlett at 18 years old what his values were-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 28:42 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 28:42 ... you know, he would have said, "Lamborghini. Next question." He would have said, "Money," right? (laughs) I know those aren't even values, but that's what, what he would have said, right? So, I'm interested to, to know how you think someone can go on the journey of healing, um, and understanding themselves and self-awareness, which I think is the foundation-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 28:56 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 28:56 ... of all the, the pillars you mentioned of happiness.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 28:59 It's a great question. Um, I don't think it's going to be you listen to this conversation, you watch it on YouTube, you get the book, whatever. I don't think it's that you do that, and then you're like, "Oh, I've got it. I've figured it out now. I know my values." Okay, great. No, no, this is a journey.

Steven Bartlett 29:17 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 29:18 It's the best journey you'll ever take, but it's a journey. It's not a one-hit. The first step in any change is awareness. All behaviors serve a need, right? Every behavior we have is there for a reason. You can't just, I can't just tell a patient, "You should drink less alcohol," without helping them understand why do they need to be drinking that alcohol in the first place. Right? It took me ages to, to figure this out. So I'd start, I'd think, "Wh- why, why am I struggling? Why do they stop for two weeks, then they, they get back on the horse?" It's like, oh, we've not dealt with the underlying need. It's like New Year's resolutions, right? No one has a problem going spinning four times a week for the first two weeks in January.

Steven Bartlett 30:04 (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 30:05 But third week, fourth week, when life gets busy and life gets stressful, or, or they can give up booze for a couple of weeks.... and, and I just can't keep it going. It's like, you know, I need it to unwind from my work day. That's because your alcohol consumption is a symptom of the way you're living your life. If you want to change that, you can try and white-knuckle it and reduce it. Sure, you might be successful for a short period of time, but you'll always go back unless you understand the behavior. S- same thing kind of works with food cravings a lot of the time. So, if someone's listening to this and they go, "Okay, I wanna know what to do," but even if they're starting to challenge themselves already and go, "You know what? I'm pretty interested what these two guys are saying. You know? I don't kinda know what my values are, but I've got a feeling that I'm not living life in accordance with them. Like, I think I'm chasing the wrong stuff, but I don't quite know what to do about that." Even that awareness is progress, right? So, I think that's really important. We, we can't always just find it out, get to the solution, go and live happy lives. It doesn't work like that. So, step one is awareness. Now, if you have that awareness and you want to go further, a simple thing you might wanna do is what I call the Identity Menu in the book. You might literally want to try and write down three values, or even one value. Start with one, right?

Steven Bartlett 31:29 (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 31:29 Start with one, right? Just write down one value. And then in a week's time, ask yourself how often in that week did you live in accordance with that? How often in that week did you live in a way that was not in harmony with that? Okay? It's not about beating yourself up. It's not about holding yourself to this, uh, unattainable ideal. It's just ask yourself the question. Just gently start compassionately probing what's going on. Right? So, I think that's a useful exercise, and build up to three values if you can. And, you know, these things need reassessing. The other exercise I like, uh, which I think is really practical, it- it's got two parts. It's called Define Your Happiness Habits and Write Your Happy Ending, right? And if, if you want, we could try it, actually.

Steven Bartlett 32:13 Let's do it.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 32:13 If you're up for it? So-

Steven Bartlett 32:14 I love doing these sort of...

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 32:15 So, I would ask you, Steven, think of three things-

Steven Bartlett 32:19 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 32:19 ... that really bring you a sense of happiness, deep calm and contentment, and make you really feel good.

Steven Bartlett 32:26 Um, so I think one of them, which I've actually read about in your book, is about h- s- serving others and helping others. It, it feels to me like a, a h- a happiness rush or a sense of fulfillment or contentment that I can't seem to get anywhere else. The other one is, like, pursuing my artistic interests, so things like when I... You can see my DJing equipment over in the corner there. When I do my DJing or when I s- give, give time to myself to write or create-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 32:53 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 32:53 ... which I call that, like, expression, that's like-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 32:55 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 32:56 Um, and then I think the third one is, is what I think you call in your book, like, movement, so moving, so, um, exercise-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:05 Okay.

Steven Bartlett 33:05 ... when I go to the gym and I... And I'm not sure why that is, because this might fit into a number of categories, because in, in part it's, like, meditative when I'm on the running machine or on the, on the Peloton, it's really meditative. On the other part, it's... has this obviously physiological impacts-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:17 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:17 ... and biological impacts of the exercise. And then on the third part, it might just be because I'm giving time to myself. So, I'd say those are the three that came to mind straight away, is-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:26 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 33:26 ... you know.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:26 Okay, so you've, you've picked what I call three happiness habits.

Steven Bartlett 33:30 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:30 Right? So, each week, and please correct me if I've misinterpreted any of this-

Steven Bartlett 33:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:35 ... um, each week, if you could do something that serves others-

Steven Bartlett 33:38 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:38 ... if you could engage in your artistic, um, passions-

Steven Bartlett 33:43 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:43 ... and you could do a form of movement you enjoy-

Steven Bartlett 33:46 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:46 ... they are three things that would give you, you know, a real sense of happiness.

Steven Bartlett 33:50 So I believe. (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 33:51 Okay. No, no. I, I, I think they probably are, and I- I'll share mine in just a second. Second is, let's go to the second part of the exercise. Okay, it's called Write Your Happy Ending. So, imagine now you're on your deathbed.

Steven Bartlett 34:01 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 34:01 Okay?

Steven Bartlett 34:02 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 34:02 So, at the end of... This is it, right?

Steven Bartlett 34:05 (sighs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 34:05 Look back on your life. What are three things you will want to have done?

Steven Bartlett 34:10 So, that's really interesting 'cause it's funny, 'cause the answers are different. Um, one of them is definitely about connecting with others, my friends, so, like, my friends, my family, my niece. That's, like, that's, in fact, so central to my happiness. Um, the third is helping others. That gives me a real sense of, um, that I spent my time in a worthwhile way. And... Sorry, the second, and the third would be... The third is a p- is a personal one. It's the feeling that I've, I've done my potential justice.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 34:41 Yeah. Lived up to your potential.

Steven Bartlett 34:42 Lived up to my potential, done myself justice.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 34:45 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 34:45 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 34:46 I love them. I mean, first of all, thanks for sharing that.

Steven Bartlett 34:49 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 34:49 Um, so what's really interesting, when you do the second part now, you can go back and redo the first one.

Steven Bartlett 34:56 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 34:56 And th- w- what's really beautiful, I think, there's, I think there's a real deceptive simplicity with this exercise. It gives you the, the sort of granular day-to-day-

Steven Bartlett 35:07 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:07 ... look at your life and happiness, and it gives you the 30,000-foot kind of big picture view. And you can see if they're aligned. So, if you do the three happiness habits each week, doing something for someone else-

Steven Bartlett 35:19 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:19 ... sorry, serving others, engaging creatively, and, um, uh, you know, moving-

Steven Bartlett 35:26 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:27 ... will that get you to your happy ending?

Steven Bartlett 35:29 No.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:30 (clicks tongue) So-

Steven Bartlett 35:31 I, I was missing one.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:32 You're missing one-

Steven Bartlett 35:33 Yeah. Which I didn't realize.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:34 ... the relationship piece.

Steven Bartlett 35:35 Yeah, exactly.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:35 Yeah, and so this is not about catching anyone out.

Steven Bartlett 35:37 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:38 This is something I think we can all benefit from, myself included, on a regular basis. It doesn't mean you can automatically change the entire trajectory of your life, but it does mean... This is about intention, right?

Steven Bartlett 35:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 35:48 It's like, if that's what the goal is at the end, well... Like, for me, I know three happiness habits for me are wa- number one, spending undistracted time with my wife and my children each week.

Steven Bartlett 36:04 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 36:04 That's really important. Number two, doing something that helps improve the health and wellbeing of others-

Steven Bartlett 36:10 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 36:10 ... really important. Number three, having time-... to pursue things that I'm passionate about. That's kind of my three. I'm doing the, the, the final piece.

Steven Bartlett 36:22 The 30,000 foot.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 36:23 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 36:23 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 36:24 So I know each week then for happiness habits, if I have, let's say, five meals around the dinner table with my wife and kids, that's where there's no phones and we're totally undistracted and in the moment, right? I know that I'm, I'm doing that. I know if I record an episode of my podcast each week, I know that I'm doing something that's gonna improve the lives of other people.

Steven Bartlett 36:48 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 36:49 And if I have time to, I don't know, play guitar, play snooker, um, you know, whatever, you know, I've got all kinds of creative passions each week, then I know that if I just consistently do that, just a little bit each week, I'm getting to the happy ending that I want.

Steven Bartlett 37:06 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 37:06 And for that person who may be listening to this and struggling, that may be something else that they can start doing, you know?

Steven Bartlett 37:13 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 37:13 And, uh, what's really interesting, Steven, is we think, we, we think we're all quite different. There was a study from last year which showed us that actually, despite all our differences, we feel as if we're being our true, authentic selves when we're being kind, compassionate, doing things for others, enthusiastic, present, and in the moment, right? All of us. And what, what, what I love about these exercises, they really bring awareness and intention to your life. You could say, "Yeah, I really value health. I really value my health and wellbeing." And then they can assess their life and go, "I'm doing nothing each week to support that. I say that's who I am, but I'm not." You can say, as I did for many years, "I valued my friends. You know what? I got so busy with work, I wasn't making time to see them." And again, it's not about beating yourself up. This is really, really important point. This is about honesty and awareness, right? You're never going to become the person who you want to be until you know who is the person you are right now. It's not about guilt. It's not about shame. It's about just transparency going, "Okay, all right, I'm not aligned at the moment. Okay, fine. No problem. I'm gonna take one step this week. I'm going to make an effort once a week, I'm gonna phone one of my best mates just for 10 minutes just to say hi." Even that is ... it's helping you become more aligned. It's helping you get to that happy ending. So, you know, maybe there's some useful stuff in there for people to kind of take and actually start applying.

Steven Bartlett 38:40 Mm-hmm. It's so

Steven Bartlett 38:41 funny because when you said that exercise, you know, I, I could spend a lot of time, as I think I have in the past, trying to figure out who I was, and the techniques are complicated, and they're largely influenced by h- um, soc- who society thinks I should be and what my values are. But the minute I did that exercise, it was so clear. It was so unbelievably easy to do and so clear. And then as you said, when we zoomed out to my deathbed and said like, "What are the things on your last days that you're gonna value?" To, to see how obvious it was that I'd left out something so, so, so fundamentally important, which is like my friends, my family, my relationships (laughs) in my sort of, you know, the things that make me happy, was like alarming to me. It was like, "How, how are you not living in alignment mentally? How, how did you not know that that was so fundamental?"

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 39:26 Well, y- I think you just beautifully illustrated, Steven, that we can see it-

Steven Bartlett 39:29 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 39:30 ... brilliantly in other people.

Steven Bartlett 39:31 Oh, 100%. Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 39:32 Right? I can see it in you.

Steven Bartlett 39:33 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 39:33 I can see it in my patients. But you know what? It's pretty hard sometimes to put the mirror up and see it in yourself.

Steven Bartlett 39:39 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 39:40 Do, do you know what I mean?

Steven Bartlett 39:41 100%.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 39:41 I think ... And, and, and I think the other ... You know, I think you, you, you've asked a brilliant question, "What can that person do?" I think the other, the other thing, uh, and probably arguably the biggest, this is the biggest thing, I think, that's had the most impact on my happiness and wider health over the past few years, is this understanding of perspective. That there are multiple perspectives on the same situation. And I think this is a really important point for people to get. So let's say someone's stuck in their life and they go, "Look, I don't know what to do. I'm trapped here." Right? Uh, "I, I don't know. I get up, I go to work, you know, I try and look after my family." You know, (laughs) "I don't know this stuff about values and all that kind of stuff." Okay, fine. If you just forget all that stuff for a moment and go, "Okay, let me just see if I can start broadening my perspective." Because once you start broadening your perspective and start seeing things from somebody else's perspective, it changes everything. So one of the ways I do this is to understand that this phrase ... Yeah, I'll, I'll go as far as this. This phrase has had the most impact on my health and happiness above anything else. "If I was the other person, I would be doing exactly the same as them." Again, a very simple phrase, but when you really, really get it, you're basically saying, "If I was that person with their childhood, with their parents, with their life experiences, I would be acting in exactly the same way as them." And if you think you wouldn't, I would, I would, um-

Steven Bartlett 41:17 (laughs) .

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 41:17 ... very gently invite you to consider that this may be your ego talking. If they could act differently, they would. And what that does is it brings such a deep sense of compassion to every single day of your life. You can start to have a perspective for them. For example, it could be maybe their daughter was sick last night and up and they didn't get much sleep. Maybe they think they're gonna lose their job and they're, they're late for work, right? Whatever it is, it doesn't matter. The truth doesn't matter, right? For your happiness the truth, I would say, doesn't matter. Again, I don't mean to be controversial, but I think some people will take that. Think that's quite controversial. You're a football fan, right? There was a study done. Football match, one incident, right? Um, two sets of fans, they were interviewed about the incidents. Both of them had a completely different perspective on the same incident, right? Y- We all know that. There's a foul, or, you know, one team, "That's definitely a foul. That's a foul and a yellow card." The other side, "That was nothing, he didn't touch him."

Steven Bartlett 42:16 He dived.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 42:17 We know that anyone who's got a partner, right, or had a partner ...... you have a row, you have a disagreement. Well, depending on which side of the table you're sitting on, you have a completely different perspective of the same situation. Right? So I say in any situation, choose a happiness story. Right? I'll gi- I'll give you another example. One of the most profound conversations I have ever had on my podcast was with this lady called Edith Eger. When I spoke to her last year, she was 93 years old. At the age of 16, she was getting ready that evening. She had a date with her boyfriend. Knock on the door, her parents, her and her sister get put on a train, taken to Auschwitz. Within a couple of hours of getting there, Edith's parents get murdered. Somehow she gets through the next few years. She survives. What she has taught me is that you can always create a different story on any single event. She said when she was in Auschwitz, she was totally free. The prisoners, they weren't free. They were the ones who weren't be- able to act and behave the way that they wanted to. They were trapped. In her mind, she was free. After her parents had died, she had to dance for the guards, right? And she said, "The last thing my mom said to me was, 'Edith, nobody can ever take away from you what you put inside your mind.'" So she's dancing there. She knows her parents are dead, but in her mind, she said, "Rangan, I was dancing in Budapest Opera House. There was a full orchestra, there was a full crowd. I was dancing there." Right? The other thing she said to me is, "I've been in Auschwitz, but I can tell you the greatest prison you will ever live in is the prison you create inside your mind." So, for people who are listening who struggle to forgive, who struggle to see the other side, who see someone, uh, put a tweet up and then spend an hour getting agitated and frustrated, I humbly suggest to you, if Edith Eger can write a different story in the hell of Auschwitz, I kind of feel we probably can as well.

Steven Bartlett 44:47 It's so true that the, the greatest harm we cause to ourselves is, is our own s- negative or illogical or self-harming stories. As you were saying that, I was thinking about even the stories I've, I've told myself in the last 24 hours or the last week, which have, like, tormented me mentally-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 45:06 (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 45:06 ... in the sense of they've just, like, bothered me unnecessarily, and how much of a choice it was for me to focus on those stories, if you know what I mean. Like, uh, y- as you say, like, someone tweeting something or leaving a comment, and then that, you then give t- 48 hours of your happiness-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 45:22 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 45:22 ... to just this, when you could, as you've expressed so eloquently, choose compassion for the person and, you know, you could, you could choose to try and find the best intentions in any behavior, right?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 45:34 Yeah. Uh, uh, the way I, I put it in the book, there's this little section called Make Everyone a Hero. I, I think it's such a great sentiment in life. Whenever something happens to you you don't like, make them a hero. Make them a hero. I challenge people, try that for seven days. If your life has not been improved in any way, fine. Forget it. Just say, "The guy was spouting nonsense. I'm not interested. I'm getting back to my cynical nature. I'm gonna see the worst in everyone."

Steven Bartlett 45:59 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 45:59 Right? Fine. Uh, (laughs) it's, it's up to people. Make them a hero. The person who cuts you up, find a way to make them a hero in your heads. Right? March 2020, what happened? Everything's getting locked down. Toilet roll shortage on the shelves. Right? So what do people do? Now, I understand that was a very unique situation. People are getting, uh, triggered. People are getting scared. I understand that. But let's look at what was happening. People were bad-mouthing, um, "Who are these people who are taking all these toilet rolls? It's so inconsiderate. You know, they shouldn't be doing that." Okay. Okay, fine. Let's just see, could we write a different story? What might have happened? Well, it could be that every shopper that day took one extra roll, and so by the end of the day when the TV cameras came in, no one actually did anything that bad. They just took one extra roll.

Steven Bartlett 46:48 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 46:48 And the supermarket stock was all planned around average shopping habits and behaviors. Okay. Um, it could be that someone was really, really scared and anxious, and let's say they've got ulcerative colitis and they have to go to the toilet 20 times a day and they're petrified, so maybe they did go and buy 10 packs. Or maybe, let's take it to another extreme, maybe someone is skint, right? They've got no money. They've got no prospects in life. They thought, "You know what? I can make a fortune here."

Steven Bartlett 47:22 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 47:22 "Right? So I'm gonna get them all. I'm gonna sell them on eBay." Okay. Whatever you think of that, if you can have compassion for that person and understand, "If I was them, I'd be doing the same thing," it changes everything. It changes your physiology. It changes your perspective. And why I think that's so powerful, particularly now more than ever, Steven, like, we... Seemingly, we're in a very divided and toxic world, right? Seemingly. What we need is more compassion, right? But how do you get compassion? We can't just say, you know, "I wanna be more compassionate." That can work for some people. Use this, right? Make them a hero. Ask, say to yourself, "If I were them, I'd be doing the same thing." You know, it really helps humanity. It helps you feel better individually, but it will help connect you with people around you, people who've got different views and perspectives. It allows you to sit alongside them. So this is probably one of the things that I use the most, along with, which sort of goes along with this, um, and this is sort of the big heading in Chapter 5 of the book, which is called Seek Out Friction.Right? Look, this is when you become a master of your own happiness, right? The, the whole goal of my work at the moment is to, I don't want people to be dependent on the actions of other people for them to be happy, right? If you constantly are getting triggered and, and frustrated by the tone of your colleagues' emails, or the way that your partner is talking to you, right? If you're waiting for them to change in order for you to be happy, well, you could be waiting a long time. And if we go back to my core happiness stool, you've lost control. You have no control because you're dependent on other people. So, I talk about this as social friction, right? Just as in, in the gym, you know, you can do physical fric- you can push up, you can press up against your body and you get stronger. I'm saying you can press up against other people and also get stronger. So every time you get triggered, I actually do this, I do this every single day. Let's say, let's say social media.

Steven Bartlett 49:34 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 49:34 Let's say you get a negative comment. Let's say I get a negative comment. In the past, five years ago, when I, you know, was first on BBC One, about seven years ago now actually, um, I would've got triggered. I would've got so frustrated. I would've felt really bad, "What's going on? Why is this happening?" You know, "All I'm trying to do is help people." I would've created this narrative. Now, it's like, "Oh, why is this triggering me? Is there some truth to it that I can learn from? Or is it because the other person's having a bad day and they're taking it out on me?" And you become a master if you practice this every day, right? Because what happens is that you take control over your inner thoughts, you take control of your own happiness, because it's like, okay, it doesn't matter. You're being given opportunities every day to learn something. For me, I can s- I can speak, but I know this to be true for most people, it's because it's, it's pressed on one of your insecurities, right? When you get truly secure in who you are, what other people say, it doesn't affect you. Like I've noticed this in my own life, right? We started off the conversation talking about external validation. Like, the problem when you need external validation for your self-worth is that when you get it, you feel great, or you think you feel great.

Steven Bartlett 50:50 (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 50:51 It's a very fragile-

Steven Bartlett 50:53 (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 50:53 ... uh, way of feeling great. But when you get criticism, you go to the other extreme where you feel worthless and you turn to whatever your junk happiness habit is, Instagram, gambling, drink, porn, whatever it is, right? You turn to that as a way of compensating. But when you do the work, when you look for social friction and you allow it to become your teacher, you start to process your insecurities. Then if people praise me now on social media, say, "Oh, Rangan, that podcast changed my life," or, you know, "Your book has really had an impact on me and my mental well-being," I like hearing that, but it doesn't artificially elevate my ego like it might have done a few years ago. But at the same time, if I get criticism, right? If I get criticism, it doesn't drag me down to those depths either. I can, I'm just a lot more level. D- did that make sense?

Steven Bartlett 51:46 100%. 100%. As you were saying that, once again, my mind sat there and thought, "How does he know all of this stuff?" And how, how has he gotten to a place where he can be so empathetic and he can understand others to the point that you can, as you say, make them a hero and practice that, what seems like a pretty radical form of empathy in situations where others would resort to blame and, um, atta- you know, antagonism and attacking others? And it appears to me that is because you've understood yourself, and actually being able to see the, you know, what people might describe as the insecurities or the flaws in others, or the triggers in others is only possible once you've understood yourself. And it's funny, 'cause when I put certain things on Instagram, I know that I'm gonna get backlash. So if I say, "Personal responsibility is really important. You can choose..." For example, in, in the case of what you've said there, you can choose to make someone else a hero. If someone cuts you off, it's a choice, um, as to whether you're, you're happy or you're triggered. I know there's a small proportion of people who will slide into my DMs and go, "You're wrong. If they've cut me off, that's forced me to be unhappy," or, "I'm not at fault for being unhappy," right? And it tends to be the case that those that are able to make that person a hero or to practice empathy are those that have actually done the work to understand why they are triggered, why they were insecure, and why they react in the way they do. So again, it feels to me that this really underlying foundational piece of work that is the catalyst for being able to do all of these amazing things that you've written about and that you understand, again, is that like, that awareness as you described it.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 53:25 Yeah, I think you're spot on, Steven. It also comes from having lived through the mental turmoil of taking a different path-

Steven Bartlett 53:36 Yeah.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 53:37 ... of blaming others and seeing yourself as a victim. And often we absorb these sort of patterns from our parents, right? I can see clearly now how mum and dad would react to the world, and I can see how I absorbed a lot of that, and I thought, "That's how you show up with the world." But we can all choose to approach the world differently. Just because you have approached the world a certain way for all the years you've been on this planet, let's say until this conversation, right? Everyone listening or watching has a choice. At the end of this conversation, they can decide whether to act on something they've heard

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 54:18 or not.

Steven Bartlett 54:19 Can I just press you on that one, on that point there about your parents? Because I think it's, it touched on something that I really relate to in my, in one of my parents, which is, um... And this might be an immigrant thing. My mum was pretty badly racially abused for, for, you know, living in Plymouth. She's a Nigerian woman. You know, I really didn't see anyone else in my, in my city that looked like her, if I'm honest. Once upon a, you know-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 54:40 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 54:40 ... once in a while I might, once a year. But she was an anomaly in appearance. She was a Nigerian woman with long, you know, Nigerian hair. Um-And I grew up, I have to say, because she was often racially abused, seeing a kind of bias in her towards thinking that the world was out to get her. Uh, and, um, I don't think that served her, if I'm gonna be completely honest. If you... Do you know what I mean there? That... And you see it in other people, that kind of sense that they are a victim.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 55:13 Oh, do I ever. You know, I, I would say this is how my mum very much has shown up with the world, and similar stories here. You know, there, there is all kinds of reasons for that, and you absorb that. You think that's the way... You know, that's what your parents, how they react. You... It's often what you absorb as a child. You think that's the way. "I can't believe they did that. They, if they did that differently, I would feel differently." And it's really understanding that you have a choice in how you show up with the world. You have a choice in how you feel about a situation. You can choose a different story. Mu- mum... To be fair to mum, mum's now 81. She's pretty immobile. Uh, me or my brother give her breakfast on most days. Um, she is changing, right? She... It's so wonderful to see sometimes. It's like, "Oh, well, well done, mum." Like, "You're not..." I- it's just so wonderful to see that any one of us can change at any age, right? We can make subtle choices, small things that make a big difference. You know, I also grew up very protective, you know. You'd see things that weren't there. You know, man, if someone cut me up in my 20s, I'm not sure I should even s- (laughs) say what went through my mind, right?

Steven Bartlett 56:35 Yeah. (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 56:35 You know, I wasn't calm and content, you know, at all. I'd get triggered. I'd think they were, you know, whatever, you know. I may even shout in my car, you know. Uh, for the sake of my career, I should probably just not go any further. (laughs)

Steven Bartlett 56:51 Yeah. (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 56:51 But no, I'm just joking, you know. I, I'm saying I probably said things in my head or screamed them out that I'm not particularly proud of now. But I can see that I didn't have the emotional maturity and the emotional awareness to do anything different.

Steven Bartlett 57:10 What is that? What is that, that vic- Is victimhood, in your view, often like an ill-thought-through form of self-defense? That... 'Cause I'm thinking about why, say, our per- say, our- our mothers, who were subject to a lot of abuse or whatever, why did they make the choice that the world was not on their side? And how... 'Cause that seems like maybe in the- the short term it might help you. So, if something happens to you, you know, you know, you're unsuccessful in business, um, you can say, "Well, it was the bank. They're racist." Um, how- how... What is the psych- the psychology there in the human that's choosing to default to victimhood? And you see it in a lot of my... I see it in a lot of my friends actually. When they fail at something, it appears that they use, they use blame as a way to protect their- their self-esteem or...

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 58:01 Yeah. I- I think you just nailed it. That- that's what it is. It's protection. It's- it's to give you that feeling of safety. That's what we're always craving. We want to feel safe, so it makes you feel safe. "Actually, it's not- it's not me. It's out there. It's not in here. It's out there that's the problem." If that changed, I think that's part of it.

Steven Bartlett 58:18 So, but is that because those people can't... They co- they can't deal with more? That they're too, they're too fragile that they can't deal with more what they perceive to be evidence of their inadequacy?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 58:30 Yeah, absolutely. And it also comes down to any trauma that they may be carrying from their childhoods. This is the other thing I've- I've learned, Steven, is that, you know, without getting into details on mum and dad's, um, that I don't have permission to share, you know, there were traumatic things that happened early on in mum's life. And so now I can look at that with a deep level of compassion that, "Oh, that's why (laughs) mum behaves the way she does, because actually she got programmed at a young age that I have to be a certain way."

Steven Bartlett 59:11 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 59:11 Right? And then you- you pass it on. And- and that- that thing you said about your mum and my mum, let me share something from- from my life that- that maybe just fits in there a little bit, which is we create these behavioral patterns usually in childhood, right? 'Cause we want the love and affection of our parents. We want the validation, 'cause they're our caregivers, right? We need that to feel safe. So, touching on what we said earlier, I knew that if I came out with 100%, there'd be smiles at home, right? Everyone's happy. Bragan's done well, right? So, I internalized that. I think that's the way to be loved in life. Fast-forward, I'm at university, and there's a pattern here in- in all aspects of life. Um, like (laughs) whether I was seven and if I lost at Ludo, my mum says I would literally toss the board up and storm out the room. Like, I was furious if I lost at Ludo, right? And it sounds like a funny thing that your mum embarrasses you with from time to time. No, actually, now that I've unpicked it, it's actually very serious. I remember, I was at uni, maybe second, third, fourth year at uni, can't remember. On a Sunday often, after the passing of the Friday and Saturday night, we'd end up in Dian's Pool Hall in Edinburgh. I'd go with one of my mates. And I'm a pretty decent pool/snooker player, right? If I was ever losing, I'd go into the toilets and look at myself in the mirror, give myself a talking to, or sometimes give myself a little slap on the face, come back out. More often than not, I would go on and then win the match.And I thought I just liked winning, and I was competitive. That was all a story. Complete nonsense. It wasn't that I liked winning, it was that the pain of losing was too great, because it- it reminds me on a deep, primal level, I'm not loved when I lose, when I'm not the best. Right? So, it's about feeling of safety. And here's the other thing, if I did win, I wasn't happy that I won, I was just happy that I didn't lose. Right? And then you compensate. You don't realize it. It might be a bit more sugar that evening, a few extra beers that night, a little cheeky trip to the casino on the way back, because you've got this discomfort in your body, in your soul, right, that you need something, you need a junk happiness habit to deal with it. We're all going through that. My parents, your parents, right? They've- they've also had childhood programming that they're playing out. And I think when we really get that, we can be compassionate.

Steven Bartlett 1:01:58 I have to say that was rem- just outstandingly beautiful the way you articulated all of that, and it really did bring me back to this sense of empathy, which links to something you said earlier, which is, if I'd gone through what my mum had gone through, coming from Africa to the UK at, you know, God knows what age she did, I think maybe 17, having left school, and then having to fight for survival in the way that my mum did, and I wa- you know, my- my mum is the single hardest working person I've ever met in my entire life. I would have behaved in the exact same way.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:02:29 Yeah.

Steven Bartlett 1:02:30 And that really, it does a remarkable thing for your perspective on them, how, you know, how you view their struggle and how you view their current behavior, which I think is actually a really good pathway to engaging with them and then being able to have conversations. And I've ac- it is such a beautiful sentence, that one of, "Had I been through what they've been through, I would have behaved in the exact same way." And that is completely true of my mother. I did not- I did not have to struggle in the way she did because of her struggle.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:02 It- it's

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:03 true for all of us, actually. I think we can all apply that to every single interaction in our life, and i- in fact, my challenge would be try it. Suck it and see. See what life feels like. See what your experience of life physically, viscerally, emotionally, see what it feels like when you start to show up like that day-to-day.

Steven Bartlett 1:03:26 Hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:03:26 Right? If you're skeptical, okay. I hear your skepticism. My challenge to you if you're skeptical is to try it for three days. Just try it, because I'm not here to try and convince people. I'm not here to tell people what to do. I know this has literally transformed the way I show up with the world. And try it with your enemies, right? Yeah, sure, try it with your parents who hopefully you love. Try it with your enemies. Try it with that person at work who you don't like. Try it with that boss who really pisses you off and riles you up every time. Just try it. Maybe you can't do that straightaway, maybe you have to work up to that. This is a skill, right? Happiness is a skill. You can get better at it. But how would you know how to get better at it? When did you get taught the skill of happiness? I didn't get taught it, right? They don't teach it at school. Uh, they don't teach it at university. I didn't learn it from my parents. I didn't learn it from society. In fact, the lessons I learnt from society were that you need to earn more money, you need to get a better job, you need to, uh, get a nicer car, a nicer holiday. Those things are signs of success, and therefore happiness. And it's a myth. I think it's the biggest myth we fall for. We think that's what happiness is. Success is success, happiness is happiness. They can sometimes coincide, but they don't always. But they can do if you back up, if you take a pause, you start to do some of the things that we're talking about, you start to have a bit of time to reflect. You know, solitude, Steven, is so important, right? Every bit of our free time now is sucked up. Like, I went to this gorgeous coffee shop next to your studio just before I came in, right? Now, I imagine 15 years ago, you go into any coffee shop in London, you'd be standing in the queue, you'd be waiting. You know, there might be five people in front of you. Fine, you'll be looking around. You'll be- you might bump into someone you know, um, you might be daydreaming. Now what happens if you go into any coffee shop? Everyone's head down, stuck in their phone. Right? You- you're looking, you're trying to catch up with your emails, just have a quick cheeky look on Instagram. Ah- I'm not criticizing anyone for doing that, but that comes at a cost. It means these little micro-moments of downtime where your brain is trying to solve problems for you and process life, they're being lost. If you're constantly consuming, right, if you're constantly consuming content from outside, whatever it is, even good content, right, even nourishing content, if you're constantly consuming, you're not allowing your own thoughts and emotions to come up. You know, every summer now, I take a social media break. I tried it two years ago for the first- I think three years ago for the first time. It took me a few days to really get into it. Then after two weeks, I didn't want to go back on. Now, I'm not anti-social media, right? I can see the value that it has. I use it to try and spread helpful messaging, as you do. But I felt really good, and what- what I really experienced, Steven, is I allowed these deep, innermost feelings to come out. I started to figure out what I think, what I think, not what the world thinks, 'cause that's half the problem. Going back to what you said, that person who's confused, right, and doesn't know where to start, here's another tip for them. See if you can have 10 minutes a day...... without your phone, without music on, right? Without an app that you're looking at, without distraction, just sit. Maybe with a journal if you want, but just sit, see what comes up. Because often, we're so scared of what's gonna come up, we distract. And I would say, you know, for me, a daily practice of solitude, for me typically it's first thing in the morning, is so needed. Right? The way I describe it to people, it's like an early warning system, right? So when I was a junior doctor in Edinburgh, I remember being taught, when you're looking after sick patients, if you do regular what we call obs, so heart rate, respiratory rates, um, you know, temperature, depending on what parameters they fit into, we could detect several hours beforehand who was gonna end up needing high-dependency beds or intensive care. It was like, it was really a simple concept that by doing these regular checks, we can then take aversive action and make sure that person doesn't end up going downhill. And I see my daily practice of solitude as my early warning system. Like, it allows me to see what's coming up, right? I know for years, Steven... I say I know. I know now, but I didn't know then. When my stress load was going up, work, family, pressure, I'd feel this real tightness in my right upper back, but I was so busy I didn't even notice it. Now I notice. I know. If in the morning, when I'm doing my pro- solitude practice, I feel it, I'm like, "Oh. Okay. There's stuff going on." Right? What is it? Is it work? Is it emotional? And it allows me to intentionally say, "Okay, do I need to cut out some commitments I've got? Do I need to have a conversation with my wife about something that's been bothering me and I haven't said anything yet?" Everything I recommend, Steven, is simple. I don't think anything I've suggested so far costs any money at all.

Steven Bartlett 1:08:54 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:08:54 None of them actually take that much time. I'm really, really passionate about making sure this information is accessible to everyone. I've worked in affluent areas, I've worked in some very, very deprived areas, right? And actually, we're all... Of course there are different pressures, but actually, we're all having the same universal human experience. The same ingredients are there in all of us that when we apply them, they make our lives better no matter where we are. Right? Someone... When I was working in Oldham, right? Uh, an area of low socioeconomic status. A lot of my patients were on benefits, very poor income levels. You know, you would say a very str- uh, you know, struggling area financially. I can't take away their poverty and their stress from life, but if I can help them have 10 minutes to themselves each morning and do some breathing practices or even write in a journal what they're feeling, that is gonna lower their stress load, and that means they're gonna be better able to show up in their life and deal with their stresses. Right? So when people say, "Oh, health, happiness, it's the preserve of the middle classes and the wealthy," I disagree. I absolutely disagree, and I'm so passionate to get that message across. Health and happiness can be accessible to everyone. Yes, it can be challenging for some people. No question. There could be lots that you wanna change. There'll be lots that you ideally would wish it wasn't the way it is. But you can choose your response to every single one of those things. You absolutely can. And when you learn to do that, that's freedom. You know, what's the Viktor Frankl quote?

Steven Bartlett 1:10:39 (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:10:39 "In between stimulus and response is a space. In that space lies your power to choose your response. And with your response lies your growth and your freedom."

Steven Bartlett 1:10:53 One of the things you touched on there which was really, is really foundational to everything you went on to say was this idea of a morning routine. And, um, you know, when I do Q&As and stuff like that on social media, people will always ask me, "Steve, what's your morning routine?" My morning routine is pretty shitty, to be completely honest. I would never lie-

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:10 (laughs) .

Steven Bartlett 1:11:10 ... to anybody about that. It's really, really shitty, and it's inconsistent, and it's quite... It's unthinking, so it's kind of being dragged into the day. Um, you describe these, the three Ms of a really good morning routine. What are those three Ms of a good morning routine? What can I do today? How long is it gonna take me? And what do you believe a good morning routine contains?

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:11:31 Yeah. So big-picture view here, I have a bias towards morning routines because I have found in my own life, they've really, really helped me. So let me just talk about stress for a moment, 'cause this really plays into why I think morning routines are so important. I've got this concept of micro-stress doses and stress thresholds. So, every one of us have got our own unique personal stress threshold, right? That depends on your life, how you deal with things, and what's going on. And when we get to that threshold, that's when things start to go wrong. That's when we, um, we snap at someone, we have a fight with our partner, our neck goes, or our back goes into spasm, right? That's when you're at your threshold, right?

Steven Bartlett 1:12:20 Mm-hmm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:12:20 So, I'm saying to people, and I've, I've really found this to be true for pretty much everyone, let's say you wake up and you are far away from your threshold. You've had a good night's sleep, right? So you're feeling r- you're feeling good. What's the average morning for a lot of people these days? Okay, let's say the alarm goes off at 6:30, right? So they're in a deep sleep. Alarm goes off, jolts them out of that sleep, they have to get up. Okay. That's micro-stress dose, or MSD, number one. Okay. Pick up the phone. Like, "Oh, man, I'm just gonna put it on snooze. You know, I need a bit more." Snooze, put it back. Six minutes later, it goes on again. MSD number two.You pick up your phone, you go, "I'm just quickly gonna check email. Oh, man, there were these three emails I didn't get back to yesterday. Oh, man, I need to do that." MSD number three. Um, have a quick look on Instagram, someone's left you a snarky comment. MSD number four. Then you realize, "Oh, man, I've been in bed for 10 minutes. I have to get up, get ready. I've got a guest coming to shoot a podcast with." I'm not talking about your life, I'm just saying anyone's life- You are. You are talking about my... (laughs) Right? And so here's the point. At me, Ronan. Each one of those things, right, is a microstress dose, and each one of those is getting you closer and closer to that stress threshold. The mistake we make is that when something happens at 3:00 in the afternoon, right, when that email from your colleague frustrates you, you think it was that email, but it wasn't the email. It was the fact that you've already acquired 20 microstress doses. You're right at your threshold. You've got no capacity to deal with it, so that email now bothers you. So, what I suggest to people is many people leave the house in the morning having already accumulated about 15 microstress doses, so they're already a lot closer to their threshold than they would have otherwise been, which means they've got less resilience. They... It won't take much for them to get triggered. Right? So why I think morning routines can be so valuable is they can reduce how many microstress doses you're exposed to first thing in the morning, so you are going into your day with much more headroom and much more resilience. But I think they're also useful if you're feeling quite stressed when you wake up, and anxious. I think they help almost undo the damage of microstresses and bring you back to baseline. Was that clear? Perfectly clear. So that's my kind of overarching view on why they're so important. So for me, I know if I do that morning routine, yes, it gives me perspective on my life, it allows me to reflect, but it also, um, feeds the control leg of the core happiness stool. But it also means that I'm not exposing myself to microstressors, and in fact, I'm getting back to baseline, or I'm going into negative. I'm actually giving myself a lot more resilience and capability to face the day. So, I always try and simplify things for people, so I think a complete morning routine for me has got these three Ms. Mindfulness, movement, mindset. And that's how I orientate my own morning routine. So I start off with mindfulness. Now, I've been doing this for a few years, right, and currently my morning routine is about 30 minutes, but that's because I've created a life where I can do that and it works for me. And I get up silly early, that's also because my kids have always been early risers, and I know if I don't get that time to myself, I'm just not as good a dad and I'm not as good a husband. So my bedtime has got earlier and earlier so I can get up earlier and earlier before my kids do. Right, so I start off with mindfulness, which at the moment is a practice of breathwork and then meditation. Then what I do, I go to my kitchen and I put coffee on. Now, I'm very particular with how I do my coffee. I weigh out 15 grams in a French press, I pour 250 grams of water in it, and I put a timer on for five minutes. Why is that important? It's not. It's the way I like my coffee. But the point is, I know for five minutes my coffee's gonna brew. So in those five minutes, I don't go on Instagram. I don't check my email. I do a workout in my kitchen in my pajamas. (laughs) Right? I'm in my pajamas. I'm not to put on any fancy gear. I might do a bodyweight workout. I might have a kettlebell kicking around. Whatever I feel like I will do, and then I get the gorgeous rewards of a hot, fresh cup of organic coffee that I like, and I sit there and I'll read something, um, positive. Like I've got a few books kicking around in my living room. I'll just pick one that I'm drawn to and I'll probably read for about 10 minutes while sipping coffee, something that's not negative, that's uplifting. Right? So that's what it looks like for me. Now, sometimes my daughter, who's currently nine, she's got a sixth sense that Daddy's up and she creeps in with me. If she gets in with me... Well, two things I want to say about that. (laughs) The old Ronan from a few years ago would have got frustrated. "Man, I, I kind of need, you know, I want my own space. You know, why... Ah, you know, I should have got up earlier." I don't do that anymore. I'm a lot more compassionate to myself. I use that. I go, "Okay, great. Okay, great." She said, "Okay." "Okay, okay, darling, just sit here. Daddy's just finishing off my meditation." And she sits down and I think, "Okay, this is cool." Like, I don't need to look at it as a problem. This is life, right? If we think life is gonna be great when everything goes our way, we're gonna be waiting a long time. So I embrace it now and go, "Oh, fantastic." And then I also think as a dad, well, she's also now seeing Daddy prioritizes his health. He thinks it's important to look after his mental well-being every day. I'm hoping that she also absorbs some of these ideas as she grows up. But the mindset piece, I don't sit there and read if my daughter's there. We instead do affirmations together. So there's really good research on affirmations in terms of what they do for us, just short, positive, powerful statements. So the one we do together is we just say, "I'm happy, I'm calm, I'm stress-free." Right? So the two of us sit there, we hold hands, and we say that for a minute. At the end of it, I feel brilliant, she feels amazing. Now, I get it, some people hear that and go, "That is cheesy as anything." And maybe it is, but you know what? There's good research on it. Undergraduate students who did affirmations before their exam performed better. Mm-hmm. Right? You know, how you program your mind matters. So that's what mine looks like, right? It used to be about 5, 10 minutes. Now, yeah, I can do half an hour. Mm-hmm. Right? But I've also become aligned. I've now... I go to bed earlier. Right? And l- let's not forget, Steven, you're at a different stage in life to me, right? I'm in my early 40s. I'm happily married, I've got two young kids, right? You're in your late 20s.... right? Wasn't I doing morning routines when I was 29?

Steven Bartlett 1:19:06 Mm.

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:06 No, I wasn't.

Steven Bartlett 1:19:08 Slight clue that I texted you at 2:00 AM last night, isn't it? (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:10 Yeah, when I woke up I was like, "Oh, man," like, "I'm getting up to do my routine and Steven's just gone to bed."

Steven Bartlett 1:19:16 (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:16 But, but...

Steven Bartlett 1:19:19 (laughs)

Dr Rangan Chatterjee 1:19:19 Let me tell you about a patient who I saw many years ago. Can't remember how old she was. She was probably around 42. Really bad skin. And I strongly felt that stress was ex- exacerbating and really aggravating her skin. And she said, "Dr. Jache, I don't have time for any of this stuff," right? "I'm busy. I've got two kids. I've gotta get out to work." And we tried me- various things, but w- I managed to persuade her and inspire her to try a five-minute routine. And this is what she did. She did the three Ms in five minutes. It's just one minute of what I call three-four-five breathing, right? So you breathe in for three, you hold for four, and you breathe out for five. Any time your out breath is longer than your in breath, you help to lower your body's stress response and activate its relaxation response. Okay? There's many ways you can do that, but I like this breath that I call the three-four-five breath. So she did one minute of three-four-five breathing. She did two minutes of yoga, right? She had some of her favorite secrets. She had two minutes of yoga, and then she did two minutes of affirmations. That's it. And she got on with her day. She came to see me a few weeks later, and she said, "Dr. Jache, I just feel so much better." And her skin complaints had gone down by over 50%, and over the course of the next few months, she was hardly getting any flare-ups at all, because it was a ripple effect. It wasn't just that, but by doing that and giving her that s- little bubble of resilience first thing in the morning, she would then go out for a walk at lunchtime. Instead of just sitting in